Sol Ring and Mana Crypt should be banned outright.
A T2 Koth can get someone ultimate by T4 making sure all creatures who enter the battlefield on the opponent's side gets pinged to death. Granted it takes resources to do so, but just that makes it insane.
T1 sol ring, signet/talismen ~ T2 Bribery~Prime Time or something of that nature? Just broken.
I'd like to see the cards get banned so I can stick something else less powerful, yet fun and competitive, within their place. It's too good.
You could do so certainly, but at that point you have to realize you are casting a very wide net given this is 100 card singleton. If something that hands you 2 extra mana is that good, what about the best tutors? The point has been made already, but who tutors for a Sol Ring? By that measure the tutors themselves and the options they open up are de facto better than Sol Ring.
I'd hate to think of the laundry list of bannings that would follow Sol Ring. EDH is by definition a casual format and the variance added by the 1 ring is certainly notable, but how often is it really the deciding point in a game? How often does it actually control a games outcome? Excepting degenerate combos that end the game T4 which can be removed via the actual combo peices.
I agree that Sol Ring is probably too powerful because every deck wants to run it. That's a good measure of what it is for something to be too powerful. I'm just confused on why this is next card on the chopping block.
I think too powerful is NOT that every deck wants to run it, but instead it becomes too powerful when every deck BUILDS around it. That's the difference. If Sol Ring cost W for the same card, would you then force yourself into a White general just to play it?
It's a fun, powerful card, readily available to anybody who wants it. For those people doing incredibly broken things with it, they are violating the ethics of EDH and THEY SHOULD BE BANNED.
I looked at the two EDH decks that this Author has available in his signature. One is a poorly built Green Mana Ramp and the other contains a Sol Ring. At what point do you recognize that the chance of ramp with Sol Ring is a minute effect compared to building to it in Green. Allowing any deck to have that explosion that Green can build around steadily is FUN. It's going to come around less often than that Green deck... but if you're willing to build an entire Green deck around mana ramp, you admit that the excel is FUN. So why strip it away from other players, just because some choose to do un-fun stuff with it?
I think sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault are actually important to the format.
It keeps players honest in their deck building. If you build too low on the curve you will probably lose to end game strategies, build to high you risk getting run over by midrange, etc.
Sol ring does create some zany plays, I'll admit, but none of them seem to really win outright, just set up a player for an earlier win. If all his opponents are playing decks that are too insular that they dont have answers to a simple early threat, maybe they need to diversify their decks?
Case and point, only recently I have started playing Uril. Sol ring or Crypt plus a signet can lead to a turn 2 uril. Turn 3 it is not impossible for me to slam down a runes of the deus or similar on him and start swinging for the fences. This puts a GIANT bullseye on my head politics wise, but it is also the kind of play that forces players to build interactive decks. If everyone I'm playing against has some sharum deck with 20 instant on infinite combos that just try to race out a combo, and they cant deal with just a big beater that is killed by wrath or moat or something, then they deserve to lose.
Honestly to parallel it to standard, Yea prebanning Jace is super powerful, but kuldoth red can still beat you before you even play it. If you dont pack removal in your deck or just ways to deal with early creature aggro to the point where you couldn't have played jace, then its your decks fault, not goblin guide.
Lastly, if everyone has sol ring and everyone has the same chance of drawing it, one could make the argument that there is a balance in that. The person who builds the list that does not need an sol ring is probably more often than not in better shape than the deck that can run it degenerately but requires drawing it turn 1 or 2. At that point its just risk/reward.
I didn't read the entire thread, but I wouldn't mind seeing Sol Ring and, in turn, Mana Crypt be banned. It's not that those cards are so broken that they should be banned, they're just basically a Time Stretch for anyone who is lucky enough to get them in their opening hand. Being randomly two turns behind a person is just too crippling, especially if they are one of those D.B.s who play EDH "competitively" with combo decks. I'd rather have a consistantly level playing field than one where anyone at the table has a random 2 turn advantage over everyone else.
[QUOTE=protoaddict;/comments/8691280]I think sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault are actually important to the format.
It keeps players honest in their deck building. If you build too low on the curve you will probably lose to end game strategies, build to high you risk getting run over by midrange, etc.
Sol ringBlack Lotus does create some zany plays, I'll admit, but none of them seem to really win outright, just set up a player for an earlier win. If all his opponents are playing decks that are too insular that they dont have answers to a simple early threat, maybe they need to diversify their decks?
Case and point, only recently I have started playing Uril. Sol ringBlack Lotus can lead to a turn 2 uril. Turn 3 it is not impossible for me to slam down a runes of the deus or similar on him and start swinging for the fences. This puts a GIANT bullseye on my head politics wise, but it is also the kind of play that forces players to build interactive decks. If everyone I'm playing against has some sharum deck with 20 instant on infinite combos that just try to race out a combo, and they cant deal with just a big beater that is killed by wrath or moat or something, then they deserve to lose.
Lastly, if everyone has sol ring and everyone has the same chance of drawing it, one could make the argument that there is a balance in that. The person who builds the list that does not need an Sol ringBlack Lotus is probably more often than not in better shape than the deck that can run it degenerately but requires drawing it turn 1 or 2. At that point its just risk/reward. [end quote]
Seems pretty ridiculous when you put it in the correct context right?
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That this is even a discussion is a little absurd to me. There is nothing on the banned list that resembles Sol Ring, except for the lotus and the moxen. For those cards, the prohibitive cost does have something to do with why they are banned. Furthermore, if you read and comprehend the criteria for banning, it is clear that Sol Ring does not meet that criteria (as was pointed out already.)
The argument that a turn 1 ring enables premature, game-ending combos is flawed. If a deck consistently wins on turn 4, or 5 or whatever, then the combo is the problem. In fact if your deck consistently wins at all, then you are probably playing a deck that is stronger than the rest of the decks in your playgroup.
Mana acceleration does one thing: speeds up the game. That's a good thing. EDH games are long enough as they are, and taking away the Sol Rings will just slow everyone down.
Sol Ring pros:
- speed in general
- an extra life for your general/commander
- an alternative to green acceleration
- a reminder that, hey, it's casual!
- [fill in the blank]
Sol Ring cons:
- small percentage chance for explosive early play (note: move this item to "pros")
- takes up a slot for basic land (err... pro?)
- makes you a target sometimes but not others (hmm...)
- and so on...
Seems pretty ridiculous when you put it in the correct context right?
The difference is that playing a Sol Ring is a $7 investment and playing a Black Lotus is a $1000 investment. They want the format to have that power available to EVERYBODY. They want you to get your Nicol Bolas out a turn or three earlier. They want EVERYBODY to have that opportunity, not just those with $1000 to spend. Money does matter in this format.
This format is unlike any other format. Your ban request does not fall into their criteria for ban. I am not arguing this point in fear that they may ban my precious Sol Ring. I am arguing this point so that those who oppose Sol Ring can better come to terms with it's existence and move on. It is not a game breaker. EVER. It is a trinket that can put some heat on the table or draw some heat towards you. An amazing card with a lot of fun potential.
Potential every deck may enjoy. That's a winner, in my opinion.
Somehow, affordability seems like the worst reason to ban cards in a casual environment of them all. This is casual, after all. In our casual group, no one remotely cares if someone proxies his cards, as long as it is either not going overboard or the proxies are easy to recognize (color prints); I don't even know why it should be any other way, really -- the only reason I'd want real cards is to play in a tournament with it. Apart from that, requiring real cards just seems like an awful idea.
Once youre allowed to play with all cards without any investment, it looks pretty stupid to have the moxen banned but sol ring not, with sol ring being vastly superior. Playing with the full power seems like, well, a not so good idea though, so why should sol ring be allowed? Thats why it is not allowed, at least in our place.
As for Sol Ring being....fun. What? Well I for my part never enjoy playing with or against this card. It just always feels like it completely stretches the boundaries of what is okay or fair or fun. Whenever I play with or against that card, it feels "as fun" as a turn two plow under on each opponent. How exactly is that fun, AT ALL?
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Somehow, affordability seems like the worst reason to ban cards in a casual environment of them all. This is casual, after all. In our casual group, no one remotely cares if someone proxies his cards, as long as it is either not going overboard or the proxies are easy to recognize (color prints); I don't even know why it should be any other way, really -- the only reason I'd want real cards is to play in a tournament with it. Apart from that, requiring real cards just seems like an awful idea.
Once youre allowed to play with all cards without any investment, it looks pretty stupid to have the moxen banned but sol ring not, with sol ring being vastly superior. Playing with the full power seems like, well, a not so good idea though, so why should sol ring be allowed? Thats why it is not allowed, at least in our place.
As for Sol Ring being....fun. What? Well I for my part never enjoy playing with or against this card. It just always feels like it completely stretches the boundaries of what is okay or fair or fun. Whenever I play with or against that card, it feels "as fun" as a turn two plow under on each opponent. How exactly is that fun, AT ALL?
Let's see... Commander is now an officially supported format, Commander games can even be sanctionned... let me think here...
Nope, they're not going to take proxies into consideration when designing the ban list.
There is one constant in this thread: people who want Sol Ring banned have horrible arguments.
I agree with the politics argument, but what I wanted to talk about was the overstated argument about how often players will see it in an opening hand.
Yes, with 4 players someone will have it about quarter of the time. Frankly, I can live with that. However, this "mulligan to 5 til I get it" wouldn't happen. People make decisions at the margin. If I don't have one in my opening hand and I choose this mulligan to sol ring strategy, there's a 10% chance I'll have a 6 card sol ring hand, an 8.3% chance I'll have a 5 card sol ring hand (awesome!) and a 81.7% chance of me having a 5 card hand with no sol ring in it. This is obviously not a good strategy for anyone.
The issue is that everyone dies in one turn, and these types of cards give a quite significant advantage on something solely based on chance.
What is everyone dying on one turn to? Those are the types of cards that need to be banned. Something like Yawgmoth's Will, you can play that and draw a bunch of cards and potentially kill everyone off on the same turn, or be at such an advantage by the end of the turn that it would take something very specific to stop you... even 3 on 1.
But Sol Ring, if you play it on turn 5... untap turn 6 and you have 8 mana to work with... that's nothing. There are a few cards that exist that can give you the same or comparable advantage by turn 5. Sol Ring is good because of the turn 1 acceleration. And on turn 1, you no matter what card you play next turn with your 4 mana (or more if you involve other cards). There's just no way you are going to insta-win the game. Again... this is why multiplayer politics works. If on turn two you throw down Gideon. And presumably no one else on the table has made a strong turn 1 play... guess who people are going to be attacking next turn? Why would you attack someone with a clear board and allow the guy that already is far ahead of you to further develop their board?
Those are the usual scenarios that turn 1 Sol Ring gives you. There won't be a turn 2 play that kills all three of your opponents in one sweep, or puts them in a position where even if they gang up on you they can't do anything.
The article states adamantly that sol ring is unbalanced. No one is looking to tie every commander game they play. You have to play unbalanced cards to get ahead. If the game ends quickly because someone runs away with sol ring plays, shuffle up and play again. No one will remember that you lost quickly, it's the big plays that you tell stories about.
Sol Ring and Mana Crypt should be banned outright.
A T2 Koth can get someone ultimate by T4 making sure all creatures who enter the battlefield on the opponent's side gets pinged to death. Granted it takes resources to do so, but just that makes it insane.
T1 sol ring, signet/talismen ~ T2 Bribery~Prime Time or something of that nature? Just broken.
I'd like to see the cards get banned so I can stick something else less powerful, yet fun and competitive, within their place. It's too good.
Really? I have yet to see a Koth's Ultimate deal 120 damage.
Moxens are only banned because of their very restrictive cost not because they would be "broken" in this format. It's basically 1 free land drop.
I would like to throw my hat into the fray here.... To try to ban Sol Ring is to do a lot of things. The most important being is to open the door to what you yourself call the slippery slope... What happens next? Primeval Titan? Ancient Tomb? Mishra's Workshop? Gaea's Cradle? Serra's Sanctum? Grim Monolith? Serra Ascendant? If you want to take away the powerful cards in the format, it is a slap straight to the face of the players who bought the cards, or, more to the point, the players who bought the Commander decks to get a Sol Ring. I am not, however, unwilling to listen to reason... I understand that Sol Ring is a powerful card. I also understand that in 1v1 play, the player who resolves a Sol Ring T1 or 2 or even 3 has a humongous advantage in the game. However, I do not feel that it creates an overpowered sense in multiplayer.
Your arguements, while valid to a lot of players, I have a problem with some and agree with some. I understand that they may not be yours entirely, but for the sake of conversation, I will answer them as though they are.
"It just makes mana"
I disagree with this statement. I feel that if you ban Sol Ring, you HAVE to go after every card that even remotely feels like Sol Ring (i.e Exploration, Primeval Titan, Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Mishra's Workshop, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, and I am sure there are others I am not thinking of), and I really feel that opens up a huge can of worms that I do not think anybody wants to eat.
"It's easily answered"
I agree with this statement, to a point. While the cards you listed are pretty garbage in the format, I feel that there are some actual answers to Sol Ring, such as: Krosan Grip, Force of Will, Fracturing Gust, Oblivion Stone, Dust to Dust, Return to Dust, and the like. I know there are others, but I cannot think of them and do not want to use a cheat sheet for my discussion here. I also feel that there could be room for some 1 for 1 artifact removal spells in the format since I can name at least 10 staples for Commander:
Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves, Sensei's Divining Top, Mind's Eye, Crystal Ball, Swiftfoot Boots, Swords of Protection, Nevinyrral's Disk, Memory Jar, Mana Doublers{Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens, Caged Sun, Gauntlet of Might}.
"It helps behind players"
I absolutely agree with this statement in the sense that it does pull screwed players out of the tank.
"It's only a problem in 1v1"
I am wondering where you found the information about it already being banned in that format. Otherwise I agree with this statement, to a point. The reason for me to disagree is I feel that Commander should be played in a multiplayer environment, and that most communities that play Commander rigorously should allow a proxy rule for there specifically designed democratically appointed banned list specifically for 1v1 play.
"It doesn't belong in every deck"
Complete bologna.... Does it taste good? Completely agree with your point that it DOES belong in every deck.
"Sloppy topdeck"
I am really on the fence about this statement. If it is beyond T10-12, it is most certainly "el bado fuerte", but anytime before that, it is pretty good.
"The next best card"
I diagree with what you say here. Just like in every other format around, there will always be players who complain about the next best card.... WITHOUT FAIL. As soon as you ban Sol Ring, people will look at other early game EDH staples and start saying "hmmm???", and I feel that the buck has to stop somewhere. The one counterexample I can give is Staff of Domination... The door had to be slammed shut in that biznatch's face.
"House rules"
While this is true that you can at any time make your own list in your local EDH community and just burn the mtgcommander/dragonhighlander's ban list, what happens when they play it at a GP or a SCG Open (which they do) and you have to play by papas rules or sit in the corner? In all, I disagree with your statement... As Barbosa said in the first Pirates of the Carribean movie "The code is more of a guideline rather than actual rules". Let each community have their ban list if they really really want it for Christmas, but don't listen to them whine when they want to play in a game hosted by a group that supports the "real" banlist.
"Preconstructed arguement"
Wizards will do ANYTHING to make money, just like any other business, and I completely agree with that. But that does not make a valid arguement for this case. I agree with you saying that they are just sailing in this crazy ship they call Commander.
"Spirit of the format"
There are absolutely cards that need the axe, but I personally believe that Sol Ring is not one of them.
I hope that I have stated some opinions that will provoke conversation without drawing any blades or spilling any blood. At the very least, I hope that this book of a reply actually gets read.
I didn't read the entire thread, but I wouldn't mind seeing Sol Ring and, in turn, Mana Crypt be banned. It's not that those cards are so broken that they should be banned, they're just basically a Time Stretch for anyone who is lucky enough to get them in their opening hand. Being randomly two turns behind a person is just too crippling, especially if they are one of those D.B.s who play EDH "competitively" with combo decks. I'd rather have a consistantly level playing field than one where anyone at the table has a random 2 turn advantage over everyone else.
D.B. LOLS.... Awesome!! Sorry, but I know exactly what you are talking about.
Let's see... Commander is now an officially supported format, Commander games can even be sanctionned... let me think here...
Nope, they're not going to take proxies into consideration when designing the ban list.
There is one constant in this thread: people who want Sol Ring banned have horrible arguments.
Well they are happy to get the attention by Wizards, but it was designed to be a completely casual format, and (almost) no one would ever complain if you held a casual event with proxies (results dont count in such a tournament anyways, so 60 basics are "as good" as a random vintage legal deck).
Essentially, as soon as they do something, or refuse to do something because Wizards now officially care for that format, it leaves the path that it was meant to use and is no longer true to itself as a casual format; therefore, I dont see how your argument bears any weight...
I had my Mox at the shop one day and people told me to put it in my EDH deck. getting one in your opening 7 is really good.
If they made all Mox cards legal, I don't see what would be the problem. If they were all feasibly obtainable by the average player (like Sol Ring)... I wouldn't call to ban in. And we're talking about what... 5-6 cards that give you free mana. Essentially like playing an extra land that turn.
It wouldn't be broken IMO if everyone would play them. Sure, every game you would have every player start off with a mox in play on their first turn... but so what? The format is already skewed toward the higher casting cost stuff. A format where everyone starts the game with extra mana from turn 1... it doesn't break the format. And of course there would be the situation where a player draws like 3 Moxes in their opening hand and plays Koth turn 1. And it would be the same issue as with Sol Ring... multiplayer politics will make sure that the player that opens turn 1 with the crazy tempo advantage will suddenly have a target on their backs.
Seems pretty ridiculous when you put it in the correct context right?
No, you are off the mark. A T1/T2 Black Lotus is not going to blow everyone out of the game unless you are playing EDH to piss people off specifically. Cost combined with their ubiquitous utility is, without a doubt what is keeping the moxen and the lotus banned. Drop the reserve list and reprint power nine and I'm sure they would be welcome back to the format. As it is, dual lands aren't that good compared to everything else available, otherwise I think they would see the axe too.
The EDH/Commander format is all about the politics, and most playgroups act as a democracy. Each individual group has its threshold of what is acceptable play and what isn't. A card should not be banned from a format because of one particular playgroup (or one person of a playgroup) has a problem with degenerate decks. A card or more specifically a Deck Type will be removed from a playgroup if the general consenus is that it is not fun. One player should not decide on what is fun a group should.
This is what the format is about, if Wizards decides to sanction EDH/Commander and run a GrandPrix, well then I would say the gloves are off, but until then it is Kitchen Table Magic, nothing more.
I think I may have poorly worded my previous post as this response doesn't seem consistent with what I was attempting to bring to the discussion.
Every decision on restricting or banning a card in any format begins with someone being the first to say so. Then it's up to that person to put their argument into words (and in this case, statistics) in an attempt to justify their opinion and convince those who can make it happen.
Specifically, what I take from the debate in this thread is that Sol Ring is a card where it can be argued has an inordinate amount of influence on the politics of the early game. If the point is valid, I'd theorize that the same is true for Mana Crypt, possibly Mana Vault, and (if they were legal) the Moxen & Lotus. Put another way, maybe we'd find games of EDH are more enjoyable without those cards exerting their influence on the early game. Not saying that definitively, only as a point worthy of consideration.
As I said, my viewpoint is skewed by repeatedly trying to build Emperor decks which wouldn't get "banned" by my playgroup. Finally gave up after building over a dozen different ones over a period of several months, all of which were considered "not fun". I have enough difficulty screwing up the initiative to keep my cards sorted as it is and would prefer a format where I know I won't be forced to rip apart one deck and put another together endlessly based on my playgroup's opinion. I'd just like to know that the rules for deck construction are such that as long as I follow them, I can play the deck.
Do I think it's likely that whether Sol Ring is Banned in EDH is going to be the determining factor there? I think that is extremely unlikely. However, perhaps it's one of several cards that, if they were all Banned, would prevent me from building a deck other people tell me I'm not allowed to play. I like the *idea* of the format and I've seen people playing it who appear to be having a lot of fun but it's that fear that keeps me from trying it.
Is there conclusive data that suggests that a turn 1 or early game Sol Ring is really that prevalent in 1vs1 EDH? I'd like to think someone somewhere is meticulously going through their MTGO logs and mining them for data or someone is recording the first few plays of each game on paper. Because if that's not the case then I'm tempted to believe that the writer might just have an unlucky metagame. Also, the writer should play more multiplayer EDH. 1vs1 games are soulsucking vampires that make you almost hate Magic and humanity sometimes. Cuz in multiplayer, first to rise means first to bed. By bed I mean dead.
Now you have five mana by turn 2 (And possibly four different colors), supposse that you're faring against other 3 or 4 players, it's still a free for all, but let's fall in the "everybody allies against you" scenario, I still think that is really hard to lose a game with 5 mana out by turn 2, where most of the other players would have only 2 or 3 mana at most (And at least 2 of those might be tapped, so they've really one mana available).
It amazes me how most of the people come with the idea of the "perfect solution" to the problem that every troublesome card poses is the famed "politics", that for me they translate into basically forming an alliance to take out one player even if you're going to lose anyway against the others remaining in the game, or worse, other players depleting their resources to get rid of the "menace" so the ones who didn't freaked out can pick them out easily. It's like in a free for all one player drops something like Rhox War Monk, and then even if she's in 10 life ant that's her only creature, topdecked, the other 4 or 5 players instantly go for her throat because they consider the life gain a horrible threat to them (Absurd overreaction based on how much people insist on saying that lifegain sucks and it's the worst mechanic ever)
If you allow your group to play with over powerful cards, then be prepared to degenerate plays and games that last like 2 or 3 turns before there's a winner, even if that winner spends the next 7 or 10 turns taking out everybody in the table by herself.
@ Bitsy: There're ways to fend off multiplayer groups, in fact, the famed "everybody against one" strategy is based on the premise that the outnumbered player won't have enough answers to deal with 3 or 4 times the amount of threats that are present in 1 on 1 games, with cards like point removal this can result, but against a stream of sweepers this strategy doesn't work, as sweepers work as good in 1 on 1 as they do against a full table, even if they're seething with rage against you. Yeah, it's harder to deal against 2 or 3 opponents at the same time, but it's not impossible.
Sol ring is hardly a degenerate card and if anything it makes the game more fun because you get to play your spells out faster!
I vote that Sol Ring stays unbanned, and by the way if Sol Ring was banned now after being printed in ALL FIVE of the commander decks then I guarantee 100,000 people would not be very happy and Wizards would be in trouble. So yeah no way man.
Oh and back to my original point Sol Ring is just a lot of fun
Now you have five mana by turn 2 (And possibly four different colors), supposse that you're faring against other 3 or 4 players, it's still a free for all, but let's fall in the "everybody allies against you" scenario, I still think that is really hard to lose a game with 5 mana out by turn 2, where most of the other players would have only 2 or 3 mana at most (And at least 2 of those might be tapped, so they've really one mana available).
It amazes me how most of the people come with the idea of the "perfect solution" to the problem that every troublesome card poses is the famed "politics", that for me they translate into basically forming an alliance to take out one player even if you're going to lose anyway against the others remaining in the game, or worse, other players depleting their resources to get rid of the "menace" so the ones who didn't freaked out can pick them out easily. It's like in a free for all one player drops something like Rhox War Monk, and then even if she's in 10 life ant that's her only creature, topdecked, the other 4 or 5 players instantly go for her throat because they consider the life gain a horrible threat to them (Absurd overreaction based on how much people insist on saying that lifegain sucks and it's the worst mechanic ever)
If you allow your group to play with over powerful cards, then be prepared to degenerate plays and games that last like 2 or 3 turns before there's a winner, even if that winner spends the next 7 or 10 turns taking out everybody in the table by herself.
@ Bitsy: There're ways to fend off multiplayer groups, in fact, the famed "everybody against one" strategy is based on the premise that the outnumbered player won't have enough answers to deal with 3 or 4 times the amount of threats that are present in 1 on 1 games, with cards like point removal this can result, but against a stream of sweepers this strategy doesn't work, as sweepers work as good in 1 on 1 as they do against a full table, even if they're seething with rage against you. Yeah, it's harder to deal against 2 or 3 opponents at the same time, but it's not impossible.
Now try doing this in 7 on 1 matchups. Several things might happen. You might get both Sol Ring and Signets followed by another opponent deciding to give you a nice Plow Under. Someone drops Exploration Turn 1 and then has 6 lands on turn 2 via Azusa. There's always going to be other broken plays.
Now you have five mana by turn 2 (And possibly four different colors), supposse that you're faring against other 3 or 4 players, it's still a free for all, but let's fall in the "everybody allies against you" scenario, I still think that is really hard to lose a game with 5 mana out by turn 2, where most of the other players would have only 2 or 3 mana at most (And at least 2 of those might be tapped, so they've really one mana available).
But what are you going to play for 5 mana that is going to put you incredibly far ahead? I assume it would be some awesome planeswalker like Garruk or Gideon or a good creature or your general if he costs only 5 to play. And by the time your opponents get to 3-4 mana (which... everyone plays ramp to some extent so you have to think this is going to be happening just a turn or two later tops), you might even have another threat on the table. But eventually they play their first "money" card. It's probably not going to be as good as a Planeswalker, but maybe it's just something simple like Call of the Herd or Oblivion Ring. The other three or four players in the game probably didn't get to 5 mana on turn 2, so they are all in a similar situation. You play that Call of the Herd and you untap to attack the next turn... who do you think he's going to swing at? The guy with the Oblivion Ring in his hand... who do you think he's going to use it on? The Call of the Herd token or the 5CMC and 6CMC threats that your opponent already has on the table turn 3?
And maybe he holds back his Oblivion Ring and doesn't play it on anything, and lets this guy dispatch one of the other players. But politics still come into play, because the guy getting beat on is going to use whatever cards he has to fight back, even if no one helps him out. Sure, he'll lose. If it had been a 1 on 1 game it wouldn't have been much of a contest unless the guy's deck was just horrible. But he kills the first opponent, he still has 2 or 3 more before he wins the multiplayer game. But suddenly it's turn 6 or 7 and that Sol Ring play on turn 1 isn't as big of a tempo advantage. You have 9 mana to your opponent's 6 (assuming they didn't play any mana acceleration of their own). The Sol Ring player has wasted resources trying to take out the first player while the other opponents have built up a wall of threats in front of them that has faced no resistance so far because the Sol Ring player can't fight 3 guys at the same time. And now it's basically an even match.
Card like Sol Ring if not answered will give you a huge advantage in a 1 on 1 matchup. But in multiplayer it's just not happening.
@ Bitsy: There're ways to fend off multiplayer groups, in fact, the famed "everybody against one" strategy is based on the premise that the outnumbered player won't have enough answers to deal with 3 or 4 times the amount of threats that are present in 1 on 1 games, with cards like point removal this can result, but against a stream of sweepers this strategy doesn't work, as sweepers work as good in 1 on 1 as they do against a full table, even if they're seething with rage against you. Yeah, it's harder to deal against 2 or 3 opponents at the same time, but it's not impossible.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's not easy either. Which is why Sol Ring doesn't need to be banned in multiplayer. Only cards that can essentially end the game in a few turns or cards that much better in multiplayer (like the "everyone discards a card, you draw a card for each person that discarded a card" type effects) should be considered for bans IMO. Unless it's like the power 9 where it's a money issue.
You could do so certainly, but at that point you have to realize you are casting a very wide net given this is 100 card singleton. If something that hands you 2 extra mana is that good, what about the best tutors? The point has been made already, but who tutors for a Sol Ring? By that measure the tutors themselves and the options they open up are de facto better than Sol Ring.
I'd hate to think of the laundry list of bannings that would follow Sol Ring. EDH is by definition a casual format and the variance added by the 1 ring is certainly notable, but how often is it really the deciding point in a game? How often does it actually control a games outcome? Excepting degenerate combos that end the game T4 which can be removed via the actual combo peices.
It's a fun, powerful card, readily available to anybody who wants it. For those people doing incredibly broken things with it, they are violating the ethics of EDH and THEY SHOULD BE BANNED.
I looked at the two EDH decks that this Author has available in his signature. One is a poorly built Green Mana Ramp and the other contains a Sol Ring. At what point do you recognize that the chance of ramp with Sol Ring is a minute effect compared to building to it in Green. Allowing any deck to have that explosion that Green can build around steadily is FUN. It's going to come around less often than that Green deck... but if you're willing to build an entire Green deck around mana ramp, you admit that the excel is FUN. So why strip it away from other players, just because some choose to do un-fun stuff with it?
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@BillyTheFridge
It keeps players honest in their deck building. If you build too low on the curve you will probably lose to end game strategies, build to high you risk getting run over by midrange, etc.
Sol ring does create some zany plays, I'll admit, but none of them seem to really win outright, just set up a player for an earlier win. If all his opponents are playing decks that are too insular that they dont have answers to a simple early threat, maybe they need to diversify their decks?
Case and point, only recently I have started playing Uril. Sol ring or Crypt plus a signet can lead to a turn 2 uril. Turn 3 it is not impossible for me to slam down a runes of the deus or similar on him and start swinging for the fences. This puts a GIANT bullseye on my head politics wise, but it is also the kind of play that forces players to build interactive decks. If everyone I'm playing against has some sharum deck with 20 instant on infinite combos that just try to race out a combo, and they cant deal with just a big beater that is killed by wrath or moat or something, then they deserve to lose.
Honestly to parallel it to standard, Yea prebanning Jace is super powerful, but kuldoth red can still beat you before you even play it. If you dont pack removal in your deck or just ways to deal with early creature aggro to the point where you couldn't have played jace, then its your decks fault, not goblin guide.
Lastly, if everyone has sol ring and everyone has the same chance of drawing it, one could make the argument that there is a balance in that. The person who builds the list that does not need an sol ring is probably more often than not in better shape than the deck that can run it degenerately but requires drawing it turn 1 or 2. At that point its just risk/reward.
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It keeps players honest in their deck building. If you build too low on the curve you will probably lose to end game strategies, build to high you risk getting run over by midrange, etc.
Sol ringBlack Lotus does create some zany plays, I'll admit, but none of them seem to really win outright, just set up a player for an earlier win. If all his opponents are playing decks that are too insular that they dont have answers to a simple early threat, maybe they need to diversify their decks?Case and point, only recently I have started playing Uril.
Sol ringBlack Lotus can lead to a turn 2 uril. Turn 3 it is not impossible for me to slam down a runes of the deus or similar on him and start swinging for the fences. This puts a GIANT bullseye on my head politics wise, but it is also the kind of play that forces players to build interactive decks. If everyone I'm playing against has some sharum deck with 20 instant on infinite combos that just try to race out a combo, and they cant deal with just a big beater that is killed by wrath or moat or something, then they deserve to lose.Lastly, if everyone has sol ring and everyone has the same chance of drawing it, one could make the argument that there is a balance in that. The person who builds the list that does not need an
Sol ringBlack Lotus is probably more often than not in better shape than the deck that can run it degenerately but requires drawing it turn 1 or 2. At that point its just risk/reward. [end quote]Seems pretty ridiculous when you put it in the correct context right?
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
The argument that a turn 1 ring enables premature, game-ending combos is flawed. If a deck consistently wins on turn 4, or 5 or whatever, then the combo is the problem. In fact if your deck consistently wins at all, then you are probably playing a deck that is stronger than the rest of the decks in your playgroup.
Mana acceleration does one thing: speeds up the game. That's a good thing. EDH games are long enough as they are, and taking away the Sol Rings will just slow everyone down.
Sol Ring pros:
- speed in general
- an extra life for your general/commander
- an alternative to green acceleration
- a reminder that, hey, it's casual!
- [fill in the blank]
Sol Ring cons:
- small percentage chance for explosive early play (note: move this item to "pros")
- takes up a slot for basic land (err... pro?)
- makes you a target sometimes but not others (hmm...)
- and so on...
The difference is that playing a Sol Ring is a $7 investment and playing a Black Lotus is a $1000 investment. They want the format to have that power available to EVERYBODY. They want you to get your Nicol Bolas out a turn or three earlier. They want EVERYBODY to have that opportunity, not just those with $1000 to spend. Money does matter in this format.
This format is unlike any other format. Your ban request does not fall into their criteria for ban. I am not arguing this point in fear that they may ban my precious Sol Ring. I am arguing this point so that those who oppose Sol Ring can better come to terms with it's existence and move on. It is not a game breaker. EVER. It is a trinket that can put some heat on the table or draw some heat towards you. An amazing card with a lot of fun potential.
Potential every deck may enjoy. That's a winner, in my opinion.
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@BillyTheFridge
Once youre allowed to play with all cards without any investment, it looks pretty stupid to have the moxen banned but sol ring not, with sol ring being vastly superior. Playing with the full power seems like, well, a not so good idea though, so why should sol ring be allowed? Thats why it is not allowed, at least in our place.
As for Sol Ring being....fun. What? Well I for my part never enjoy playing with or against this card. It just always feels like it completely stretches the boundaries of what is okay or fair or fun. Whenever I play with or against that card, it feels "as fun" as a turn two plow under on each opponent. How exactly is that fun, AT ALL?
Let's see... Commander is now an officially supported format, Commander games can even be sanctionned... let me think here...
Nope, they're not going to take proxies into consideration when designing the ban list.
There is one constant in this thread: people who want Sol Ring banned have horrible arguments.
Yes, with 4 players someone will have it about quarter of the time. Frankly, I can live with that. However, this "mulligan to 5 til I get it" wouldn't happen. People make decisions at the margin. If I don't have one in my opening hand and I choose this mulligan to sol ring strategy, there's a 10% chance I'll have a 6 card sol ring hand, an 8.3% chance I'll have a 5 card sol ring hand (awesome!) and a 81.7% chance of me having a 5 card hand with no sol ring in it. This is obviously not a good strategy for anyone.
What is everyone dying on one turn to? Those are the types of cards that need to be banned. Something like Yawgmoth's Will, you can play that and draw a bunch of cards and potentially kill everyone off on the same turn, or be at such an advantage by the end of the turn that it would take something very specific to stop you... even 3 on 1.
But Sol Ring, if you play it on turn 5... untap turn 6 and you have 8 mana to work with... that's nothing. There are a few cards that exist that can give you the same or comparable advantage by turn 5. Sol Ring is good because of the turn 1 acceleration. And on turn 1, you no matter what card you play next turn with your 4 mana (or more if you involve other cards). There's just no way you are going to insta-win the game. Again... this is why multiplayer politics works. If on turn two you throw down Gideon. And presumably no one else on the table has made a strong turn 1 play... guess who people are going to be attacking next turn? Why would you attack someone with a clear board and allow the guy that already is far ahead of you to further develop their board?
Those are the usual scenarios that turn 1 Sol Ring gives you. There won't be a turn 2 play that kills all three of your opponents in one sweep, or puts them in a position where even if they gang up on you they can't do anything.
Really? I have yet to see a Koth's Ultimate deal 120 damage.
Moxens are only banned because of their very restrictive cost not because they would be "broken" in this format. It's basically 1 free land drop.
I had my Mox at the shop one day and people told me to put it in my EDH deck. getting one in your opening 7 is really good.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
Your arguements, while valid to a lot of players, I have a problem with some and agree with some. I understand that they may not be yours entirely, but for the sake of conversation, I will answer them as though they are.
"It just makes mana"
I disagree with this statement. I feel that if you ban Sol Ring, you HAVE to go after every card that even remotely feels like Sol Ring (i.e Exploration, Primeval Titan, Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Mishra's Workshop, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, and I am sure there are others I am not thinking of), and I really feel that opens up a huge can of worms that I do not think anybody wants to eat.
"It's easily answered"
I agree with this statement, to a point. While the cards you listed are pretty garbage in the format, I feel that there are some actual answers to Sol Ring, such as: Krosan Grip, Force of Will, Fracturing Gust, Oblivion Stone, Dust to Dust, Return to Dust, and the like. I know there are others, but I cannot think of them and do not want to use a cheat sheet for my discussion here. I also feel that there could be room for some 1 for 1 artifact removal spells in the format since I can name at least 10 staples for Commander:
Sol Ring, Lightning Greaves, Sensei's Divining Top, Mind's Eye, Crystal Ball, Swiftfoot Boots, Swords of Protection, Nevinyrral's Disk, Memory Jar, Mana Doublers{Gauntlet of Power, Extraplanar Lens, Caged Sun, Gauntlet of Might}.
"It helps behind players"
I absolutely agree with this statement in the sense that it does pull screwed players out of the tank.
"It's only a problem in 1v1"
I am wondering where you found the information about it already being banned in that format. Otherwise I agree with this statement, to a point. The reason for me to disagree is I feel that Commander should be played in a multiplayer environment, and that most communities that play Commander rigorously should allow a proxy rule for there specifically designed democratically appointed banned list specifically for 1v1 play.
"It doesn't belong in every deck"
Complete bologna.... Does it taste good? Completely agree with your point that it DOES belong in every deck.
"Sloppy topdeck"
I am really on the fence about this statement. If it is beyond T10-12, it is most certainly "el bado fuerte", but anytime before that, it is pretty good.
"The next best card"
I diagree with what you say here. Just like in every other format around, there will always be players who complain about the next best card.... WITHOUT FAIL. As soon as you ban Sol Ring, people will look at other early game EDH staples and start saying "hmmm???", and I feel that the buck has to stop somewhere. The one counterexample I can give is Staff of Domination... The door had to be slammed shut in that biznatch's face.
"House rules"
While this is true that you can at any time make your own list in your local EDH community and just burn the mtgcommander/dragonhighlander's ban list, what happens when they play it at a GP or a SCG Open (which they do) and you have to play by papas rules or sit in the corner? In all, I disagree with your statement... As Barbosa said in the first Pirates of the Carribean movie "The code is more of a guideline rather than actual rules". Let each community have their ban list if they really really want it for Christmas, but don't listen to them whine when they want to play in a game hosted by a group that supports the "real" banlist.
"Preconstructed arguement"
Wizards will do ANYTHING to make money, just like any other business, and I completely agree with that. But that does not make a valid arguement for this case. I agree with you saying that they are just sailing in this crazy ship they call Commander.
"Spirit of the format"
There are absolutely cards that need the axe, but I personally believe that Sol Ring is not one of them.
I hope that I have stated some opinions that will provoke conversation without drawing any blades or spilling any blood. At the very least, I hope that this book of a reply actually gets read.
D.B. LOLS.... Awesome!! Sorry, but I know exactly what you are talking about.
Well they are happy to get the attention by Wizards, but it was designed to be a completely casual format, and (almost) no one would ever complain if you held a casual event with proxies (results dont count in such a tournament anyways, so 60 basics are "as good" as a random vintage legal deck).
Essentially, as soon as they do something, or refuse to do something because Wizards now officially care for that format, it leaves the path that it was meant to use and is no longer true to itself as a casual format; therefore, I dont see how your argument bears any weight...
If they made all Mox cards legal, I don't see what would be the problem. If they were all feasibly obtainable by the average player (like Sol Ring)... I wouldn't call to ban in. And we're talking about what... 5-6 cards that give you free mana. Essentially like playing an extra land that turn.
It wouldn't be broken IMO if everyone would play them. Sure, every game you would have every player start off with a mox in play on their first turn... but so what? The format is already skewed toward the higher casting cost stuff. A format where everyone starts the game with extra mana from turn 1... it doesn't break the format. And of course there would be the situation where a player draws like 3 Moxes in their opening hand and plays Koth turn 1. And it would be the same issue as with Sol Ring... multiplayer politics will make sure that the player that opens turn 1 with the crazy tempo advantage will suddenly have a target on their backs.
No, you are off the mark. A T1/T2 Black Lotus is not going to blow everyone out of the game unless you are playing EDH to piss people off specifically. Cost combined with their ubiquitous utility is, without a doubt what is keeping the moxen and the lotus banned. Drop the reserve list and reprint power nine and I'm sure they would be welcome back to the format. As it is, dual lands aren't that good compared to everything else available, otherwise I think they would see the axe too.
I think I may have poorly worded my previous post as this response doesn't seem consistent with what I was attempting to bring to the discussion.
Every decision on restricting or banning a card in any format begins with someone being the first to say so. Then it's up to that person to put their argument into words (and in this case, statistics) in an attempt to justify their opinion and convince those who can make it happen.
Specifically, what I take from the debate in this thread is that Sol Ring is a card where it can be argued has an inordinate amount of influence on the politics of the early game. If the point is valid, I'd theorize that the same is true for Mana Crypt, possibly Mana Vault, and (if they were legal) the Moxen & Lotus. Put another way, maybe we'd find games of EDH are more enjoyable without those cards exerting their influence on the early game. Not saying that definitively, only as a point worthy of consideration.
As I said, my viewpoint is skewed by repeatedly trying to build Emperor decks which wouldn't get "banned" by my playgroup. Finally gave up after building over a dozen different ones over a period of several months, all of which were considered "not fun". I have enough difficulty screwing up the initiative to keep my cards sorted as it is and would prefer a format where I know I won't be forced to rip apart one deck and put another together endlessly based on my playgroup's opinion. I'd just like to know that the rules for deck construction are such that as long as I follow them, I can play the deck.
Do I think it's likely that whether Sol Ring is Banned in EDH is going to be the determining factor there? I think that is extremely unlikely. However, perhaps it's one of several cards that, if they were all Banned, would prevent me from building a deck other people tell me I'm not allowed to play. I like the *idea* of the format and I've seen people playing it who appear to be having a lot of fun but it's that fear that keeps me from trying it.
T1: Land, Sol Ring, Signet.
T2: Land.
Now you have five mana by turn 2 (And possibly four different colors), supposse that you're faring against other 3 or 4 players, it's still a free for all, but let's fall in the "everybody allies against you" scenario, I still think that is really hard to lose a game with 5 mana out by turn 2, where most of the other players would have only 2 or 3 mana at most (And at least 2 of those might be tapped, so they've really one mana available).
It amazes me how most of the people come with the idea of the "perfect solution" to the problem that every troublesome card poses is the famed "politics", that for me they translate into basically forming an alliance to take out one player even if you're going to lose anyway against the others remaining in the game, or worse, other players depleting their resources to get rid of the "menace" so the ones who didn't freaked out can pick them out easily. It's like in a free for all one player drops something like Rhox War Monk, and then even if she's in 10 life ant that's her only creature, topdecked, the other 4 or 5 players instantly go for her throat because they consider the life gain a horrible threat to them (Absurd overreaction based on how much people insist on saying that lifegain sucks and it's the worst mechanic ever)
If you allow your group to play with over powerful cards, then be prepared to degenerate plays and games that last like 2 or 3 turns before there's a winner, even if that winner spends the next 7 or 10 turns taking out everybody in the table by herself.
@ Bitsy: There're ways to fend off multiplayer groups, in fact, the famed "everybody against one" strategy is based on the premise that the outnumbered player won't have enough answers to deal with 3 or 4 times the amount of threats that are present in 1 on 1 games, with cards like point removal this can result, but against a stream of sweepers this strategy doesn't work, as sweepers work as good in 1 on 1 as they do against a full table, even if they're seething with rage against you. Yeah, it's harder to deal against 2 or 3 opponents at the same time, but it's not impossible.
Fan of Both old and new Slivers (But the new ones are still better anyway)
C Call of Emrakul - G vs R DD: Elves vs. Goblins - W vs B DD: Divine vs. Demonic - WUB Esper Artifice - RGW Aura Dancers
WUBRG Wrath of the Reaper King - WB Men of Faith - B Mercenaries - UB Phyrexian Assault 2.0 - WU Artifacts of Empires
BR Skeleton Warriors - RG Night of The Howlpack - B Bog Murderers - BR Eldrazi Assault - BGU Ulamog's Swarm
I vote that Sol Ring stays unbanned, and by the way if Sol Ring was banned now after being printed in ALL FIVE of the commander decks then I guarantee 100,000 people would not be very happy and Wizards would be in trouble. So yeah no way man.
Oh and back to my original point Sol Ring is just a lot of fun
Now try doing this in 7 on 1 matchups. Several things might happen. You might get both Sol Ring and Signets followed by another opponent deciding to give you a nice Plow Under. Someone drops Exploration Turn 1 and then has 6 lands on turn 2 via Azusa. There's always going to be other broken plays.
But what are you going to play for 5 mana that is going to put you incredibly far ahead? I assume it would be some awesome planeswalker like Garruk or Gideon or a good creature or your general if he costs only 5 to play. And by the time your opponents get to 3-4 mana (which... everyone plays ramp to some extent so you have to think this is going to be happening just a turn or two later tops), you might even have another threat on the table. But eventually they play their first "money" card. It's probably not going to be as good as a Planeswalker, but maybe it's just something simple like Call of the Herd or Oblivion Ring. The other three or four players in the game probably didn't get to 5 mana on turn 2, so they are all in a similar situation. You play that Call of the Herd and you untap to attack the next turn... who do you think he's going to swing at? The guy with the Oblivion Ring in his hand... who do you think he's going to use it on? The Call of the Herd token or the 5CMC and 6CMC threats that your opponent already has on the table turn 3?
And maybe he holds back his Oblivion Ring and doesn't play it on anything, and lets this guy dispatch one of the other players. But politics still come into play, because the guy getting beat on is going to use whatever cards he has to fight back, even if no one helps him out. Sure, he'll lose. If it had been a 1 on 1 game it wouldn't have been much of a contest unless the guy's deck was just horrible. But he kills the first opponent, he still has 2 or 3 more before he wins the multiplayer game. But suddenly it's turn 6 or 7 and that Sol Ring play on turn 1 isn't as big of a tempo advantage. You have 9 mana to your opponent's 6 (assuming they didn't play any mana acceleration of their own). The Sol Ring player has wasted resources trying to take out the first player while the other opponents have built up a wall of threats in front of them that has faced no resistance so far because the Sol Ring player can't fight 3 guys at the same time. And now it's basically an even match.
Card like Sol Ring if not answered will give you a huge advantage in a 1 on 1 matchup. But in multiplayer it's just not happening.
It's certainly not impossible, but it's not easy either. Which is why Sol Ring doesn't need to be banned in multiplayer. Only cards that can essentially end the game in a few turns or cards that much better in multiplayer (like the "everyone discards a card, you draw a card for each person that discarded a card" type effects) should be considered for bans IMO. Unless it's like the power 9 where it's a money issue.