This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Cranial Insertion: WUBRG, But More WUR Today. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
How about "You may discard your hand, pay 5 life, rip this card, remove 3 digits from any number of target fingers you control, and concede at the end of the next end step rather than pay It Will Go Through!!'s mana cost.
Wouldn't the first SBA be checked at the first upkeep? Just after the Karn controlling player untaps. So the restarting the game would go:
Each player does start of game procedures.
Karn player untaps.
Beginning of upkeep abilities trigger.
Opponent loses the game due to SBA checking the drawing from an empty library.
Karn player wins and opponent feels shame for letting Karn player remove his almost complete library from the game.
SBAs are checked any time a player would receive priority, so the first time they would be checked in a restarted game would be at the beginning of the first upkeep step, after all relevant triggers have been put on the stack.
Yay bonus points!
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
The last question in the article is a theoretical situation we talked about at the pre-release. We came to the agreement that since the SBAs are not checked during the pre-game procedure the loss would have to happen during the draw step when the non-active player tries to draw a card from the empty library (because of rule 704.5b). If they had 6 cards left they would be able to mulligan down to below that before the game started and at least get a few turns that way (interestingly, because of rule 103.4b if they had a total of 5 cards left they would draw five then automatically mulligan down to 4 on their next hand).
The last question in the article is a theoretical situation we talked about at the pre-release. We came to the agreement that since the SBAs are not checked during the pre-game procedure the loss would have to happen during the draw step when the non-active player tries to draw a card from the empty library (because of rule 704.5b). If they had 6 cards left they would be able to mulligan down to below that before the game started and at least get a few turns that way (interestingly, because of rule 103.4b if they had a total of 5 cards left they would draw five then automatically mulligan down to 4 on their next hand).
Mulligans don't save you, actually, and there is a specific rule that outlines this:
713.3. Because each player draws seven cards when the new game begins, any player with fewer than seven cards in his or her library will lose the game when state-based actions are checked during the upkeep step of the first turn, regardless of any mulligans that player takes. (See rule 704, “State-Based Actions.”)
Mulligans don't save you, actually, and there is a specific rule that outlines this:
Thanks for pointing that out. I am pretty sure that rule did not yet exist when we were talking about the situation at the pre-release and adding it cleared up that scenario. Seems like a better view of 704.5b for us would have been that "the last time state-based actions were checked" would include in the same game before the restart.
Thanks for pointing that out. I am pretty sure that rule did not yet exist when we were talking about the situation at the pre-release and adding it cleared up that scenario. Seems like a better view of 704.5b for us would have been that "the last time state-based actions were checked" would include in the same game before the restart.
It wasn't covered in the FAQ for New Phyrexia, but if the situation had come up (before we had the updated Comprehensive Rules), I'd have looked to Shahrazad for precedent -- the rules for subgames have had the same clause about being unable to draw an opening hand of seven for quite a while.
Wouldn't the first SBA be checked at the first upkeep? Just after the Karn controlling player untaps. So the restarting the game would go:
Each player does start of game procedures.
Karn player untaps.
Beginning of upkeep abilities trigger.
Opponent loses the game due to SBA checking the drawing from an empty library.
Karn player wins and opponent feels shame for letting Karn player remove his almost complete library from the game.
Close, but possibly not specific enough. The beginning of upkeep abilities trigger, but I don't believe they go on the stack just yet.
SBAs are checked any time a player would receive priority, so the first time they would be checked in a restarted game would be at the beginning of the first upkeep step, after all relevant triggers have been put on the stack.
Yay bonus points!
Also close, but I believe the last part you said may be wrong and you don't get all the bonus points because of it.
I think the opponent loses at the beginning of the first upkeep before any triggered abilities go on the stack. At the beginning of the first upkeep, the active player would get priority. However, much like replacement effects, all stated-based actions are performed instead. If the game is still going on at that point and no other state-based actions get performed, then triggered abilities will go on the stack.
For reference:
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, "State-Based Actions"), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 116, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority.
Edit: This means that losing for too few cards to draw 7 can actually happen during untap, if you have a Wake Thrasher-type card and a permanent that enters the battlefield tapped.
Edit 2: Just checked it out and I'm wrong about getting priority. It waits for upkeep even if it triggers during untap.
There are actually three possible steps/phases for the bonus question. It depends on certain cards the Karn player might start the game with:
It'll usually be during the upkeep step. However, if the player starts with Eon Hub it'll be during the draw step. And if the player starts with both Eon Hub and a permanent that skips the draw step It'll be during the first Main Phase.:D
Q: If someone destroys Karmic Justice, do I get to destroy a permanent?
A: Yup! As long as Karmic Justice isn't a creature, it'll be a "non-creature permanent you control" and so it'll trigger its own ability.
So, Is Karmic Justice's ability considered a leave-the-battlefield ability even though it doesn't follow the usual syntaxes? (That might explain the "but aren't limited to" in rule 603.6c, though.)
Are there any more cards that fit that description? (i.e. having a LTB ability that's isn't not worded as either of the two syntaxes in rule 603.6c)
There are actually three possible steps/phases for the bonus question. It depends on certain cards the Karn player might start the game with:
It'll usually be during the upkeep step. However, if the player starts with Eon Hub it'll be during the draw step. And if the player starts with both Eon Hub and a permanent that skips the draw step[/URL] It'll be during the first Main Phase.:D
I believe there's one more option. If Time Vault was removed with Karn, that player would have the choice to skip their turn and the person that drew out their library would lose during the next player's turn.
Close, but possibly not specific enough. The beginning of upkeep abilities trigger, but I don't believe they go on the stack just yet.
What exactly was your argument against what I had said? You just said that I was close but not specific enough. How much more specific can you get than:
Beginning of upkeep -> Abilities trigger -> SBA are checked -> Player loses
I believe there's one more option. If Time Vault was removed with Karn, that player would have the choice to skip their turn and the person that drew out their library would lose during the next player's turn.
Ok So that makes it 5 possibilities:
default = player's upkeep Eon Hub = player's draw step Eon Hub + "Draw Skipper" = player's main phase Time Vault = opponent's upkeep Time Vault + Eon Hub = opponent's draw step.
How does Karn's ultimate work with things that are phased out? Are they shuffled back or would they create a means to check SBA during the untap phase since they occur before the untap phase. Like a Teferi's Imp causing a card draw or Shimmering Efreet targeting itself.
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"You are what you pretend to be, so you must be careful what you pretend to be" from Mother Night
They would be shuffled in as well. Restarting the game involves shuffling EVERYTHING back in (except for the cards exiled by Karn)
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What exactly was your argument against what I had said? You just said that I was close but not specific enough.
Actually, I explained why in the very next sentence. Did you stop reading? You're not saying whether or not the abilities actually go on the stack; all you said was they trigger. Here is what I said for reference:
Close, but possibly not specific enough. The beginning of upkeep abilities trigger, but I don't believe they go on the stack just yet.
Here is the rule I was looking at that made me question what you said or, rather, didn't say:
116.5. Each time a player would get priority, the game first performs all applicable state-based actions as a single event (see rule 704, "State-Based Actions"), then repeats this process until no state-based actions are performed. Then triggered abilities are put on the stack (see rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities"). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the player who would have received priority does so.
All I wanted to know was whether or not triggers go on the stack before SBA are performed. According to that rule, they don't.
The mentioned "draw skipper"s all say "skip your draw step". So you can only skip draw steps of Karn-controlling player. either way, it's only 5 possibilities.
EDIT: Except Fatespinner. sorry, I take it back. 6 possibilities.
fatespinner requires an upkeep to happen, and then you'd die during the upkeep. so 5 possibilities again.
The mentioned "draw skipper"s all say "skip your draw step". So you can only skip draw steps of Karn-controlling player. either way, it's only 5 possibilities.
EDIT: Except Fatespinner. sorry, I take it back. 6 possibilities.
I was thinking there was a card that said, "Players skip their draw step". The card says, "Players can't draw cards". I should have verified; My mistake. As for Fatespinner, MageofDancingDragons is correct. If there is an upkeep step, the player that drew his library would lose. Otherwise, multiple Fatespinners would have allowed them to skip their draw, main, and combat phases. If that worked, they could hold out until their end step, but you were right the first time. The longest they can put off dying seems to be the second player's draw step.
Ok So that makes it 5 possibilities:
default = player's upkeep Eon Hub = player's draw step Eon Hub + "Draw Skipper" = player's main phase Time Vault = opponent's upkeep Time Vault + Eon Hub = opponent's draw step.
How does the second one work? The player who takes the first turn of the game skips the draw step of his or her first turn, and the controller of the Karn ability always takes the first turn of the game.
Each player does start of game procedures.
Karn player untaps.
Beginning of upkeep abilities trigger.
Opponent loses the game due to SBA checking the drawing from an empty library.
Karn player wins and opponent feels shame for letting Karn player remove his almost complete library from the game.
Yay bonus points!
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
Mulligans don't save you, actually, and there is a specific rule that outlines this:
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
Thanks for pointing that out. I am pretty sure that rule did not yet exist when we were talking about the situation at the pre-release and adding it cleared up that scenario. Seems like a better view of 704.5b for us would have been that "the last time state-based actions were checked" would include in the same game before the restart.
It wasn't covered in the FAQ for New Phyrexia, but if the situation had come up (before we had the updated Comprehensive Rules), I'd have looked to Shahrazad for precedent -- the rules for subgames have had the same clause about being unable to draw an opening hand of seven for quite a while.
----
Lightning Bolts don't kill creatures. State-based actions kill creatures.
With a bunch of "forked" triggers you could get there a lot fast then 50 ish turns.
Nobody has priority during the untap step under any circumstances.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
Close, but possibly not specific enough. The beginning of upkeep abilities trigger, but I don't believe they go on the stack just yet.
Also close, but I believe the last part you said may be wrong and you don't get all the bonus points because of it.
I think the opponent loses at the beginning of the first upkeep before any triggered abilities go on the stack. At the beginning of the first upkeep, the active player would get priority. However, much like replacement effects, all stated-based actions are performed instead. If the game is still going on at that point and no other state-based actions get performed, then triggered abilities will go on the stack.
For reference:
Not true. If anything triggers during untap, that trigger will use the stack and can be responded to.
Edit: This means that losing for too few cards to draw 7 can actually happen during untap, if you have a Wake Thrasher-type card and a permanent that enters the battlefield tapped.
Edit 2: Just checked it out and I'm wrong about getting priority. It waits for upkeep even if it triggers during untap.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
It'll usually be during the upkeep step. However, if the player starts with Eon Hub it'll be during the draw step. And if the player starts with both Eon Hub and a permanent that skips the draw step It'll be during the first Main Phase.:D
So, Is Karmic Justice's ability considered a leave-the-battlefield ability even though it doesn't follow the usual syntaxes? (That might explain the "but aren't limited to" in rule 603.6c, though.)
Are there any more cards that fit that description? (i.e. having a LTB ability that's isn't not worded as either of the two syntaxes in rule 603.6c)
I believe there's one more option. If Time Vault was removed with Karn, that player would have the choice to skip their turn and the person that drew out their library would lose during the next player's turn.
What, so you lose on your first draw step instead?
What exactly was your argument against what I had said? You just said that I was close but not specific enough. How much more specific can you get than:
Beginning of upkeep -> Abilities trigger -> SBA are checked -> Player loses
Ok So that makes it 5 possibilities:
default = player's upkeep
Eon Hub = player's draw step
Eon Hub + "Draw Skipper" = player's main phase
Time Vault = opponent's upkeep
Time Vault + Eon Hub = opponent's draw step.
Or give the karn player an Abyssal Persecutor.
And you can combine it with a deck that has 4 Necrogen Scudders, 4 Vampire Lacerators and 4 Phyrexian Ragers to punish his griefing attempt (or Phage the untouchable if you're not bound to T2). And while you're at it, add a Mindslaver and force him to activate Karn's ultimate if he's not going to.
Edit: Now that I think about it, At that point you might not have any lands left for Mindslaver.
First posted EDH deck: Hakim, Beardmaster
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Actually, I explained why in the very next sentence. Did you stop reading? You're not saying whether or not the abilities actually go on the stack; all you said was they trigger. Here is what I said for reference:
Here is the rule I was looking at that made me question what you said or, rather, didn't say:
All I wanted to know was whether or not triggers go on the stack before SBA are performed. According to that rule, they don't.
Don't forget this one, making it 6:
Time Vault + Eon Hub + "Draw Skipper" = opponent's main phase
fatespinner requires an upkeep to happen, and then you'd die during the upkeep. so 5 possibilities again.
I was thinking there was a card that said, "Players skip their draw step". The card says, "Players can't draw cards". I should have verified; My mistake. As for Fatespinner, MageofDancingDragons is correct. If there is an upkeep step, the player that drew his library would lose. Otherwise, multiple Fatespinners would have allowed them to skip their draw, main, and combat phases. If that worked, they could hold out until their end step, but you were right the first time. The longest they can put off dying seems to be the second player's draw step.
How does the second one work? The player who takes the first turn of the game skips the draw step of his or her first turn, and the controller of the Karn ability always takes the first turn of the game.
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