This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Investigating Combo: Artifacts in T2. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
I may be wrong but I disagree that this deck has a strong matchup vs UW. Ive played UW for awhile and while I agree the deck has alot of dead cards in this match....the time seive deck has just as many. Honestly if Im playing UW I dont really care if Time Seive or Time warp resolve. As long as you save ur counters for Open the vaults or tezz and keep any glassdust hulks off the board the match is cake. Especially after g1. This however is just speaking from my experience against the deck....I could be wrong
I'm surprised that Executioner's Capsule didn't make an appearance against polymorph. It glides under white Iona and kills Emrakul just fine. Plus it can recur with open the vaults. With prisms, double black isn't too huge of an issue if you need it right away, but most of the time, it stands early as a harsh deterrent.
Very good article. Lots of attention on Time Sieve as of late, hopefully I can wrestle a decent list soon, probably in time for the SCG 5k in Philly. Right now, I'm looking at a mix of Silence and Spreading Seas as well as two Everflowing Chalice cutting 1 of each borderpost, but the deck changes daily. It really is one of the more difficult decks to play/design (and I wonder why it was one of the first decks I made /facepalm) but it is in the journey.
Very good, I enjoyed the read. I had thought about Repel the Darkness, but I dismissed it because I thought it too slow and that it wouldn't stop enough. I'll take a closer look at it before Nat'l Qualifiers. Speaking of which, you mentioned MN regionals. I'll be there, will you?
BlackKryptonite: I've lost games to UW, but never matches. UW needs a strong hand, and for Time Sieve to falter. What dead cards of Time Sieves are there? You could argue that Spreading Seas or Angelsong are, but I've found Angelsong to be useful (as mentioned in the article, when UW goes for the kill it does it in a few quick strokes) plus both of these cards cycle. Meanwhile, game one against an unknown opponent are you going to mull the Path, Jace, Day of Judgement, Wall of Omens, three land hand? I think not. Here, none of these cards actually do anything. Not sure what type of Time Sieve player you were playing against or how many games you played, but removing Hulk doesn't stop the Time Sieve player from winning. The UW matchup is won through sharp play and sheer card advantage, nothing more and nothing less.
Befuddlement: I mentioned the Capsules in there somewhere. I like the idea. I like how it gets recurred, and also how Tezzeret can fetch it out. The reason it isn't in the list I put up is because I haven't tested it fully. It is, however, in the PTQ lists at the end, as well as Into the Roil, so both seem like strong options.
Lazychimp: No, I was warding afters. Oh fine yeah you got me.
Benjammm: As I posted in the Sieve forum, I don't think Silence and Seas have any synergy together. If you have the Seas, their ability to play spells is already hindered, decreasing the value of Silence. I tried Chalice and liked it, but decided it didn't do enough and cut it. It makes the strong draws stronger and the weak draws weaker. On paper I agree that it's a harder deck to build. The rewarding part of it is that, since you see more cards than usual, you can tell what's working and what isn't faster. Good luck with your tweaking!
kspaeth123: Repel is usually pretty great. Against RDW or decks with mana critters it's often better than Angelsong. After a certain point it doesn't do enough. I never want more than one, but I'm always happy to see it in my opening seven. And yes, I'll be at MN Regionals. Feel free to say "hi."
Curious to know everyone's opinion on Runed Servitor, which I've been testing. It doesn't fix, but with four Prisms the Kaleidostone no longer seems crucial for that.
I like that it makes a body which can trade for an Elf, making it less irrelevant on board than a Kaleidostone. (Ever since I added 4 Prisms I have never, not even once, needed to pop a K-stone to fix for white. Ever. I've only ever used its ability when I needed to chain K-stones together and then Vault them back as the World's Worst Tidings, aka a game that is already lost.) Essentially, I loathe and despise Kaleidostone and really wish to replace it. Servitor looks like a potential. Most importantly to me, when going off with extra turns, especially if they tapped out into an alpha strike that got Angelsonged, a pair of Servitors can put on some sizeable hurt while you hunt for a Hulk. (They can be Tezzeret tutored into play. Hulk, not so much.)
It draws its card when it dies, rather than when it enters the battlefield. This makes the OtV less of a draw spell, but turns a Sieve activation into a draw spell. I thought at first this would be a serious inconvenience but in testing I found it wasn't. It's just a matter of timing when you need your cards anyway.
Cons: Everyone by this point must be champing at the bit to point out that, in fact, everyone draws from Servitor. My answer is: Yeah, and, so, what? Don't we feed them extra cards with Mine anyway? This is a low- to no-interactivity deck. What do we care how many cards they draw? Their resource is attack steps and our resource is life and in most matchups nothing else is relevant. Unless they're running Eldrazi Ramp I don't think they'll be able to translate the extra cards into extra options since they can still only play 1 land per turn. That's the entire reason why we run Mines anyway. So I'm not concerned that the opponent gets a card for offing the Servitor. Their removal spell was entirely blank already so, sure, they upgraded a dead removal spell to a possibly live other spell, but they did so at a mana cost while we, too, replaced a spell, dug deeper, and set up for our combo off. I'm not afraid of that.
(Additional note: if we choose to go for the occasional Jace millout win-con, Servitors help with that plan, too.)
Finally, my real concern: Servitor turns on Searing Blaze. >_<; This may be the single biggest problem with the spell and I'm not really sure how to address it.
Intelligent post. I've had the same thought process. The only reason I haven't tested the card is because sometimes I really want to dig for Howling Mine, and Servitor only helps that if they're attacking. Still, if you're considering Wall of Omens, this card seems superior in most regards, especially if your list has Foundry.
Note: Searing Blaze can hit you if you don't have a creature in play, so Servitor doesn't really turn anything on.
I'll strongly disagree on Jund being a 60-40 match-up.At first I also thought that TS had a good match-up agains't jund but it doesn't seem so.Putrid Leech and Maelstrom Pulse hurt s much it's not even funny.If you had to the fact that Jund is kinda fast and post board come Jund Charm... yea it's pretty terrible.
Intelligent post. I've had the same thought process. The only reason I haven't tested the card is because sometimes I really want to dig for Howling Mine, and Servitor only helps that if they're attacking. Still, if you're considering Wall of Omens, this card seems superior in most regards, especially if your list has Foundry.
Thank you. I'll continue testing it and post additional results here as I discover them.
Note: Searing Blaze can hit you if you don't have a creature in play, so Servitor doesn't really turn anything on.
Are you sure? It says "target player and ... target creature", not "and/or" or "up to". Don't spells that state their targets unequivocally in this respect require the correct number and type of targets in order to be announced? My understanding was that if the opponent doesn't have a creature, Searing Blaze can't even be announced.
KirdKitty: I said it varies wildly (between 40-60 and 60-40, depending on lists, experience, and who wins the die roll), so in a game between an average zoo player and an average TS deck you're probably right. If you have an experienced player (someone who knows order of operations, how to play around pulse, and which hands to keep) with a Spreading Seas version, the match will be in TS's favor. Jund Charm is a fine sideboard card, but it's relatively easy to play around and means that Jund isn't dropping threats to leave mana open. Also, it weakens the turn four cascade.
Kasreyn: You're right. I was confused from reading too many rules articles. I know that you can choose an illegal creature target for a Searing Blaze redirected by a Wild Richochet, but I didn't know you needed two legal targets to hard cast the thing.
3/1/2010: You must choose two targets as you cast Searing Blaze: a player and a creature that player controls. If you can't (because there are no creatures on the battlefield, perhaps), then you can't cast the spell.
So, with that resolved: what are everyone's thoughts on Runed Servitor, and how much it impacts the RDW game 1 to give them a Searing Blaze target? I mean, that's 3 damage you can lock in their hand. Of course, the Wall of Omens players turn it on too, but with not quite as devastating an effect. :/
I don't think this deck necessitates 8 Borderposts. That's a lot of CIBT mana sources and potential mulligans. Cutting it down to 6 is definitely possible. Plus, Celestial Purge from their board on an early black borderpost can hurt.
Great article, very well written. I am very curious to try this deck out and will probably build it for an upcoming FNM. The only concern I have is that often it seems like when someone writes about a rogue-ish deck (as this appears to be) the author/deck creator tends to overstate and overhype the power of the deck. Are the matchups presented really as good as the article states? I am especially intrigued about this deck because (possibly excluding Tezzeret) the deck seems to be very inexpensive to build. I guess I'll be finding out soon if this deck is what the article claims it is.
I don't think this deck necessitates 8 Borderposts. That's a lot of CIBT mana sources and potential mulligans. Cutting it down to 6 is definitely possible. Plus, Celestial Purge from their board on an early black borderpost can hurt.
I'm under the impression that the extra borderposts provide extra targets for Time Sieve and Tezzeret. Is this the correct view?
I'm surprised that Executioner's Capsule didn't make an appearance against polymorph. It glides under white Iona and kills Emrakul just fine. Plus it can recur with open the vaults. With prisms, double black isn't too huge of an issue if you need it right away, but most of the time, it stands early as a harsh deterrent.
ive used it as tech in my open filligree and time seive decks and SLAUGHTERED polymorph, its more than worth the space considering the prevelence of polymorph
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The main reason Hulk was even added in the first place was to combat with a resolved thought hemorrhage. At the time of the first time sieve (or back to the future as I know it) Jund was not the force that it is today. Still, when Time Sieve started gaining ground anyone running RB ran Hemorrhage in the SB. I think 2 Hulk is actually the best number mostly because now there's sadistic sacrament (vamps might become more prevalent with Jund settling down and planeswalker/polymorph becoming popular decks) which can remove 1 hulk 2 tezz leaving you 1 meager wincon.
kspaeth123: Repel is usually pretty great. Against RDW or decks with mana critters it's often better than Angelsong. After a certain point it doesn't do enough. I never want more than one, but I'm always happy to see it in my opening seven.
I like the concept of what it does (fog and cantrip); right now I'm trying it out in lieu of the 2 Thopter Foundry's I MD. For reference, here's my list.
Repel has been okay so far, I'm still not sure wether or not I like it over Foundry.
I used to be a big advocator of Beleren instead of the Mind Sculptor, but I've found that the latter is stronger in this build. I would attribute it to the 12/14 cantrips and 4 Mines, making Beleren's draw ability somewhat more irrelevant. Besides that, the new version is much stronger against Polymorph and other conrtol decks in general.
The sideboard is still in flux, but I feel like this configuration can handle most of the meta.
And yes, I'll be at MN Regionals. Feel free to say "hi."
Will do, I'll be the only high school-aged kid playing Time Sieve ;).
I'm under the impression that the extra borderposts provide extra targets for Time Sieve and Tezzeret. Is this the correct view?
Yes.
JunioRcmf: Agree about Jund Charm. Seas is good against it and, unlike double blightning, we can actually play around the card. I wouldn't run Quest, as I've never milled out yet, though I've gotten down to my last draw. Usually if it looks like I might deck myself, say in the under twenty cards range, I just start sacking the Howling Mines instead of baubles. Crisis averted =). Although, playing with Seas adds another element to consider, as Open brings dead Seas back too.
kspaeth123: I think Beleren is better for lists that A-have Hulk, so another win condition isn't needed, or B-have Angelsong to protect it early. Since your list has neither, I strongly agree on switching to the new Jace.
So far, I haven't liked the Missionarys all that much, but we'll see. The Day of Judgments have been reasonably good, and I have felt an improvement against Conscription Mythic after adding them in. The -Seas+Capsule plan seems to work fine, but it's not particularly impressive. The matchup is a lot more winnable, but I think the advantage is with the Conscription Mythic deck.
It seems that my infatuation with Hulk is beginning to fade. Foundry, while slower, is a fine win condition and adds value where Hulk would just cycle. Being able to beat RDW g1 feels great.
Executioner's Capsule changes who has inevitability in the Poly matchup. The difference is incredible. Now, instead of having to try and combo off faster through walls of countermagic, the deck can sit back and pick up steady advantages like it might against UW tapout. If the Poly deck blinks first, they probably won't be able to stop you from comboing. If they don't apply pressure, however, the deck will eventually set up a win no matter how many Negates the Poly player has. The match as a whole is probably still in Poly's favor thanks to a very strong game one, but it feels much closer. Just don't expect to win against a turn three Poly on the draw without a Capsule.
I'm hoping the new Jund deck doesn't take off instantly. The manabase is much more resilient to Seas.
kspaeth123: I think Beleren is better for lists that A-have Hulk, so another win condition isn't needed, or B-have Angelsong to protect it early. Since your list has neither, I strongly agree on switching to the new Jace.
I mis-typed, the "Other Spells" category actually only has 18 cases and I'm not playing 4 Time Warp twice, one of those is 4 Angelsong.
Instead of Missionaries, why not have two journey to nowheres? It still hinders Polymorph, and can remove a creature in Conscription Mythic.
I was going to suggest Path to Exile against Conscription Mythic, but against Polymorph it doesn't help us.
The missionary's are nice for life gain and to block, but I don't see them being the staple in this type of deck. I would rather put in another Thopter Foundry.
Also back when I played this deck when it first came out, I played a build that had Etherium Sculptor to make all the 2 drop artifacts 1 drops. From what I see, the Spreading Seas took its spot. Do you think there could be a place for them still, maybe a two of in the board if you face a mirror?
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Befuddlement: I mentioned the Capsules in there somewhere. I like the idea. I like how it gets recurred, and also how Tezzeret can fetch it out. The reason it isn't in the list I put up is because I haven't tested it fully. It is, however, in the PTQ lists at the end, as well as Into the Roil, so both seem like strong options.
Lazychimp: No, I was warding afters. Oh fine yeah you got me.
Benjammm: As I posted in the Sieve forum, I don't think Silence and Seas have any synergy together. If you have the Seas, their ability to play spells is already hindered, decreasing the value of Silence. I tried Chalice and liked it, but decided it didn't do enough and cut it. It makes the strong draws stronger and the weak draws weaker. On paper I agree that it's a harder deck to build. The rewarding part of it is that, since you see more cards than usual, you can tell what's working and what isn't faster. Good luck with your tweaking!
kspaeth123: Repel is usually pretty great. Against RDW or decks with mana critters it's often better than Angelsong. After a certain point it doesn't do enough. I never want more than one, but I'm always happy to see it in my opening seven. And yes, I'll be at MN Regionals. Feel free to say "hi."
I like that it makes a body which can trade for an Elf, making it less irrelevant on board than a Kaleidostone. (Ever since I added 4 Prisms I have never, not even once, needed to pop a K-stone to fix for white. Ever. I've only ever used its ability when I needed to chain K-stones together and then Vault them back as the World's Worst Tidings, aka a game that is already lost.) Essentially, I loathe and despise Kaleidostone and really wish to replace it. Servitor looks like a potential. Most importantly to me, when going off with extra turns, especially if they tapped out into an alpha strike that got Angelsonged, a pair of Servitors can put on some sizeable hurt while you hunt for a Hulk. (They can be Tezzeret tutored into play. Hulk, not so much.)
It draws its card when it dies, rather than when it enters the battlefield. This makes the OtV less of a draw spell, but turns a Sieve activation into a draw spell. I thought at first this would be a serious inconvenience but in testing I found it wasn't. It's just a matter of timing when you need your cards anyway.
Cons: Everyone by this point must be champing at the bit to point out that, in fact, everyone draws from Servitor. My answer is: Yeah, and, so, what? Don't we feed them extra cards with Mine anyway? This is a low- to no-interactivity deck. What do we care how many cards they draw? Their resource is attack steps and our resource is life and in most matchups nothing else is relevant. Unless they're running Eldrazi Ramp I don't think they'll be able to translate the extra cards into extra options since they can still only play 1 land per turn. That's the entire reason why we run Mines anyway. So I'm not concerned that the opponent gets a card for offing the Servitor. Their removal spell was entirely blank already so, sure, they upgraded a dead removal spell to a possibly live other spell, but they did so at a mana cost while we, too, replaced a spell, dug deeper, and set up for our combo off. I'm not afraid of that.
(Additional note: if we choose to go for the occasional Jace millout win-con, Servitors help with that plan, too.)
Finally, my real concern: Servitor turns on Searing Blaze. >_<; This may be the single biggest problem with the spell and I'm not really sure how to address it.
Thoughts?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Note: Searing Blaze can hit you if you don't have a creature in play, so Servitor doesn't really turn anything on.
Romeo, O Romeo, can i haz romeo?
Thank you. I'll continue testing it and post additional results here as I discover them.
Are you sure? It says "target player and ... target creature", not "and/or" or "up to". Don't spells that state their targets unequivocally in this respect require the correct number and type of targets in order to be announced? My understanding was that if the opponent doesn't have a creature, Searing Blaze can't even be announced.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Kasreyn: You're right. I was confused from reading too many rules articles. I know that you can choose an illegal creature target for a Searing Blaze redirected by a Wild Richochet, but I didn't know you needed two legal targets to hard cast the thing.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I'm under the impression that the extra borderposts provide extra targets for Time Sieve and Tezzeret. Is this the correct view?
Current decks:
Legacy: Zoo, Aggro Elves, The Gate, White Weenie, Red Deck Wins, and Merfolk. Currently building Solidarity.
Casual: Warp World Revolution and Old School Red-Green.
Standard: Ob-Nixilis Wave and Elves.
ive used it as tech in my open filligree and time seive decks and SLAUGHTERED polymorph, its more than worth the space considering the prevelence of polymorph
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I like the concept of what it does (fog and cantrip); right now I'm trying it out in lieu of the 2 Thopter Foundry's I MD. For reference, here's my list.
6 Island
5 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
Artifacts- 23
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Kaleidostone
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Howling Mine
3 Time Sieve
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (or Beleren)
Other Spells- 20
4 Time Warp
2 Repel the Darkness (or Thopter Foundry)
4 Spreading Seas
4 Time Warp
4 Open the Vaults
4 Negate
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Perimeter Captain
3 Into the Roil
Repel has been okay so far, I'm still not sure wether or not I like it over Foundry.
I used to be a big advocator of Beleren instead of the Mind Sculptor, but I've found that the latter is stronger in this build. I would attribute it to the 12/14 cantrips and 4 Mines, making Beleren's draw ability somewhat more irrelevant. Besides that, the new version is much stronger against Polymorph and other conrtol decks in general.
The sideboard is still in flux, but I feel like this configuration can handle most of the meta.
Will do, I'll be the only high school-aged kid playing Time Sieve ;).
Yes.
Yes.
JunioRcmf: Agree about Jund Charm. Seas is good against it and, unlike double blightning, we can actually play around the card. I wouldn't run Quest, as I've never milled out yet, though I've gotten down to my last draw. Usually if it looks like I might deck myself, say in the under twenty cards range, I just start sacking the Howling Mines instead of baubles. Crisis averted =). Although, playing with Seas adds another element to consider, as Open brings dead Seas back too.
kspaeth123: I think Beleren is better for lists that A-have Hulk, so another win condition isn't needed, or B-have Angelsong to protect it early. Since your list has neither, I strongly agree on switching to the new Jace.
Update, with the PTQ successes taken to heart:
3 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
7 Island
2 Swamp
Spells
4 Time Warp
4 Howling Mine
3 Time Sieve
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
2 Kaleidostone
4 Open the Vaults
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Angelsong
4 Prophetic Prism
1 Jace Beleren
4 Spreading Seas
2 Thopter Foundry
2 Day of Judgment
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Day of Judgment
4 Kor Firewalker
4 Negate
3 Executioner's Capsule
1 Dispeller's Capsule
2 Lone Missionary
So far, I haven't liked the Missionarys all that much, but we'll see. The Day of Judgments have been reasonably good, and I have felt an improvement against Conscription Mythic after adding them in. The -Seas+Capsule plan seems to work fine, but it's not particularly impressive. The matchup is a lot more winnable, but I think the advantage is with the Conscription Mythic deck.
It seems that my infatuation with Hulk is beginning to fade. Foundry, while slower, is a fine win condition and adds value where Hulk would just cycle. Being able to beat RDW g1 feels great.
Executioner's Capsule changes who has inevitability in the Poly matchup. The difference is incredible. Now, instead of having to try and combo off faster through walls of countermagic, the deck can sit back and pick up steady advantages like it might against UW tapout. If the Poly deck blinks first, they probably won't be able to stop you from comboing. If they don't apply pressure, however, the deck will eventually set up a win no matter how many Negates the Poly player has. The match as a whole is probably still in Poly's favor thanks to a very strong game one, but it feels much closer. Just don't expect to win against a turn three Poly on the draw without a Capsule.
I'm hoping the new Jund deck doesn't take off instantly. The manabase is much more resilient to Seas.
For reference:
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Raging Ravine
4 Savage Lands
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
Other Stuff
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Borderland Ranger
4 Plated Geopede
4 Putrid Leech
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Sprouting Thrinax
2 Bituminous Blast
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Blightning
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sedraxis Specter
1 Island
I haven't tested it yet, but I'm guessing it's correct to bring in Firewalkers against them.
I mis-typed, the "Other Spells" category actually only has 18 cases and I'm not playing 4 Time Warp twice, one of those is 4 Angelsong.
6 Island
5 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
Artifacts- 24
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Mistvein Borderpost
4 Kaleidostone
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Howling Mine
3 Time Sieve
1 Thopter Foundry
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells- 16
4 Time Warp
4 Spreading Seas
4 Open the Vaults
4 Angelsong
4 Negate
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Day of Judgment
2 Into the roil
2 Thopter Foundry
I just bought the cards and this is what I am going to try and put together and bring to a meta I've never played in.
I was going to suggest Path to Exile against Conscription Mythic, but against Polymorph it doesn't help us.
The missionary's are nice for life gain and to block, but I don't see them being the staple in this type of deck. I would rather put in another Thopter Foundry.
Also back when I played this deck when it first came out, I played a build that had Etherium Sculptor to make all the 2 drop artifacts 1 drops. From what I see, the Spreading Seas took its spot. Do you think there could be a place for them still, maybe a two of in the board if you face a mirror?