I do assume, and am correct; I refer to the Comprehensive Rules, and if you can find a single reference to "fun" in them, please post it here.
Go ahead, ban counterspells ... hell ban blue altogether, and land destruction, and black for that matter ... knock yourselves out. Just don't call what you're playing Magic, because it's not.
You're absolutely right, we should be playing pure Magic...
BTW what did you ante each round at your last tournament?
The fact of the matter is, Magic is what you make it. Guess what, the tournament rules aren't rules for Magic. Does that mean I can cheat in casual play? Of course not. Furthermore, the success of a game, much like an operating system, hinges upon how well the customers enjoy it. For reference, See Windows vs. Linux. Linux may be more powerful, and better overall, but it's harder to learn, and less fun for most customers.
You may be more likely to enjoy the Best of lucky one and two articles. They seem to be geared more towards your playstyle.
Honestly, this all seems like a non-issue. It's pretty self-regulating. The people for whom winning is the primary virtue in magic are going to play competitively, play the decks which give them the best chance of winning, which (if they're any good) will probably cause them to win more than they lose. Strong players bunch together and form playgroups which play competitive magic, other players group together and make playgroups which satisfy whatever needs the game fulfills for them.
I'm not going to invite any "casual" players to my Wednesday night drafts, because we want to play competitive magic. We've had some there before we stabilized the group, and it just pissed everyone off because the guy who sits downwind from him and gets second pick Profane Command just destroys everybody. Accordingly, I don't expect to be invited to anybody's else's casual multiplayer game, and even if I was, I don't think I'd go.
Players with like desires group together. About the only time they come together is at FNM, where the competitive players routinely beat the casual players because they spent their time practicing competitive magic. You can gripe about somebody being a jerk at FNM when he beats you or when he loses, but the tournament doesn't care, which means to people who want to win don't give a darn either.
If you get pissy because he brought a gun to your knife fight, it's your fault you didn't think of it first. As far as Wizards is concerned, you brought a knife to his gun fight. In tournaments winners are winners and losers are losers, and I hate leaving without product.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
If you get pissy because he brought a gun to your knife fight, it's your fault you didn't think of it first. As far as Wizards is concerned, you brought a knife to his gun fight. In tournaments winners are winners and losers are losers, and I hate leaving without product.
That's why I talk about non-tournament play. I never said bringing a gun to the knife fight wasn't smart (doing so lets you win easily if that's all you're looking for), only that doing so falls into a nebulous of vague "dishonorable or mean-spirited" things that most casual play groups openly dislike.
This is also why I stopped playing in tournaments (and for a little while all Magic for that matter): I got sick of the jerks who, while not being explicitly within the judge's discretion of unsportsmanlike conduct, continuous pushed and propped at players to try and force mistakes, mocked players if they were crushed in a match, and generally provided little more than venomous glee when they won.
Did I meet great players? Absolutely. Did I almost come to a decision to get a DCI ban for slugging a kid in the face? More than once. So tournament Magic isn't for me. But not everyone self-regulates. I've played so many tournament decks during casual Magic I couldn't begin to tell you all of them.
Yet I get the drift from some of these comments that the prevailing belief among competitive players is that I'm the problem only because I ask "Can you play a different deck, maybe one that you don't run in a tournament?" *Shrug*
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
Whether tournament or casual play, the one problem that exists is that people fail to show the proper respect to their opponents. I don't care if your here to win or not, if your opponent shows up with a subpar deck then why are you complaining if you win, if you lose, the blame either luck or your own skill. If you bring a subpar deck to a tournament don't bother lying to yourself that your going to go undefeated, if you want to have fun then go a head no one will stop you. If you win congradulations, but bringing that dek was your choice and you have to live with your choices. No matter what you do at least have the decentcy to show your opponent at least basic respect by keeping a friendly, or at least respectful attitude.
If the game has just come down to you winning then your playing the wrong game because your going to overstress yourself and burn out. Of course in a tournament your objective is to win BUT if you don't have fun then your going to become emotional and lose.
If you don't have fun it just means you're not playing the right game. If a game does not stay fun when played at a high level of play (personally, that's my opinion of poker, for instance) then it's a waste of time to play it. If you don't find netdecking fun, then you shouldn't be playing Magic. There are too many great games out there for you to waste your time playing this one.
I don't play poker to win. It involves too much sitting around waiting while others at your table have showdowns. Therefore I don't play poker. You shouldn't be sacrificing playing skillfully to fun, or vice-versa. If these two concepts don't align for you in that particular game, then you should just abandon playing that game and pick one that suits you better.
This is also why I stopped playing in tournaments (and for a little while all Magic for that matter): I got sick of the jerks who, while not being explicitly within the judge's discretion of unsportsmanlike conduct, continuous pushed and propped at players to try and force mistakes, mocked players if they were crushed in a match, and generally provided little more than venomous glee when they won.
Did I meet great players? Absolutely. Did I almost come to a decision to get a DCI ban for slugging a kid in the face? More than once.
heh I can relate to that one... but to be fair most I met were alright...
I found the best way to annoy the annoying players is to play tight, play into their prods and mocks and slow roll them where possible really annoys them when they realise their messin' is'nt working. And yes in a morbid sort of way its rather fun to watch them. But I don't think the article is about mean spirited players... just different formats really
also ... why bring in OSes.... that is another touchy topic I would'nt touch with a stick
Don't like counterspells and land destruction? DON'T PLAY MAGIC.
heh I do love my counterspells and land destruction so.... I can feel your pain.... but there is a time and place for everything.... apparently counters and LD currently do not have a place in standard (counters more along counterspell, mana leak etc)... so ironically ... its like wotc saying .... "like permission and LD? Dun play standard" =P and indeed there is still legacy where the cards are legal... so its not all bad
If you don't have fun it just means you're not playing the right game. If a game does not stay fun when played at a high level of play (personally, that's my opinion of poker, for instance) then it's a waste of time to play it. If you don't find netdecking fun, then you shouldn't be playing Magic. There are too many great games out there for you to waste your time playing this one.
I don't play poker to win. It involves too much sitting around waiting while others at your table have showdowns. Therefore I don't play poker. You shouldn't be sacrificing playing skillfully to fun, or vice-versa. If these two concepts don't align for you in that particular game, then you should just abandon playing that game and pick one that suits you better.
What about people who play poker for the social benefits? They enjoy sitting with friends for a few hours ad playing cards. A lot of Magic Casual groups are like that as well. More for who you see than what you play. Magic is merely the social Grease.
I shat bricks when I saw "Stormwind Fallacy" in the title of your article. There's a concept I haven't contemplated in years, literally, and I must say you do it justice interpreting it in a Magic: the Gathering context.
I can't quite say I agree with everything, though it was a logical run through of the arguments
of course, some people are going to have fun against challenging decks, it wouldn't make sense to say 'no one is having fun', because if no one was having fun at all, no one would play those challenging decks
what caught my eye though, is this passage
This goes for not just the competitive players, but the "enjoy yourself" players as well. Are you going to let a deck ruin the fun you are having? Would you rather have no fun (i.e. quitting) than either devise a strategy to beat it or have fun anyway? If you're really all about the story of the game, then maybe in this chapter Teferi dominates the Kithkin tribes for a time, much as Saruman did the Hobbits. And yet, didn't they also rise up and find a way to defeat their oppressor? Shouldn't you as well?
I see a glaring flaw in this argument
this is basically a very well hidden way of saying "made a bad deck? build a better one"
your suggestion of building a deck to specifically 'undermine' another deck IS letting your opponent ruin your fun, because by making such a deck your opponent is defining what you play
so let's go along with this hypothetical situation, you're running kithkin and your opponent is running this lock
you find a solution... but it's in black (again hypothetically, off the top of my head I can't figure out a way to best this unless you slaughter pact and the other guy's tapped out or something)
now... black kithkin?
even if you were trying to tell a story, how would you even do it anymore?
if you include kithkin, you'd be sacrificing the efficiency of your deck to undermine said strategy by trying to still enjoy the game yourself
I don't think "go make a deck that beats this one" is the answer for casual players
I'm not advocating letting them change what you play. I'm saying that you can, if you like, incorporate those changes into your story, if you so choose. Perhaps the kithkin, in their struggle against the oppressive Teferi, must turn towards black, giving a little of their purity for freedom.
Or not, it's completely up to you. It's just an idea.
You're absolutely right, we should be playing pure Magic...
BTW what did you ante each round at your last tournament?
The fact of the matter is, Magic is what you make it. Guess what, the tournament rules aren't rules for Magic. Does that mean I can cheat in casual play? Of course not. Furthermore, the success of a game, much like an operating system, hinges upon how well the customers enjoy it. For reference, See Windows vs. Linux. Linux may be more powerful, and better overall, but it's harder to learn, and less fun for most customers.
You may be more likely to enjoy the Best of lucky one and two articles. They seem to be geared more towards your playstyle.
You should read them.
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen"
I'm not going to invite any "casual" players to my Wednesday night drafts, because we want to play competitive magic. We've had some there before we stabilized the group, and it just pissed everyone off because the guy who sits downwind from him and gets second pick Profane Command just destroys everybody. Accordingly, I don't expect to be invited to anybody's else's casual multiplayer game, and even if I was, I don't think I'd go.
Players with like desires group together. About the only time they come together is at FNM, where the competitive players routinely beat the casual players because they spent their time practicing competitive magic. You can gripe about somebody being a jerk at FNM when he beats you or when he loses, but the tournament doesn't care, which means to people who want to win don't give a darn either.
If you get pissy because he brought a gun to your knife fight, it's your fault you didn't think of it first. As far as Wizards is concerned, you brought a knife to his gun fight. In tournaments winners are winners and losers are losers, and I hate leaving without product.
MTGS stats (won/played)
As scum - 3/5
As town - 5/7
As neutral - none
(I really have been scum a lot)
I'm now writing for Eye of the Vortex, come check out MTG articles and other geek culture
I also moderate the MTG forum, so register (it's free) and voice your thoughts.
That's why I talk about non-tournament play. I never said bringing a gun to the knife fight wasn't smart (doing so lets you win easily if that's all you're looking for), only that doing so falls into a nebulous of vague "dishonorable or mean-spirited" things that most casual play groups openly dislike.
This is also why I stopped playing in tournaments (and for a little while all Magic for that matter): I got sick of the jerks who, while not being explicitly within the judge's discretion of unsportsmanlike conduct, continuous pushed and propped at players to try and force mistakes, mocked players if they were crushed in a match, and generally provided little more than venomous glee when they won.
Did I meet great players? Absolutely. Did I almost come to a decision to get a DCI ban for slugging a kid in the face? More than once. So tournament Magic isn't for me. But not everyone self-regulates. I've played so many tournament decks during casual Magic I couldn't begin to tell you all of them.
Yet I get the drift from some of these comments that the prevailing belief among competitive players is that I'm the problem only because I ask "Can you play a different deck, maybe one that you don't run in a tournament?" *Shrug*
If you don't have fun it just means you're not playing the right game. If a game does not stay fun when played at a high level of play (personally, that's my opinion of poker, for instance) then it's a waste of time to play it. If you don't find netdecking fun, then you shouldn't be playing Magic. There are too many great games out there for you to waste your time playing this one.
I don't play poker to win. It involves too much sitting around waiting while others at your table have showdowns. Therefore I don't play poker. You shouldn't be sacrificing playing skillfully to fun, or vice-versa. If these two concepts don't align for you in that particular game, then you should just abandon playing that game and pick one that suits you better.
Netdecking is Rightdecking
My latest data-driven Magic the Gathering strategy article
(TLDR: Analysis of the Valakut matchups. UB rising in the rankings. Aggro correspondingly taking a dive.)
heh I can relate to that one... but to be fair most I met were alright...
I found the best way to annoy the annoying players is to play tight, play into their prods and mocks and slow roll them where possible really annoys them when they realise their messin' is'nt working. And yes in a morbid sort of way its rather fun to watch them. But I don't think the article is about mean spirited players... just different formats really
also ... why bring in OSes.... that is another touchy topic I would'nt touch with a stick
heh I do love my counterspells and land destruction so.... I can feel your pain.... but there is a time and place for everything.... apparently counters and LD currently do not have a place in standard (counters more along counterspell, mana leak etc)... so ironically ... its like wotc saying .... "like permission and LD? Dun play standard" =P and indeed there is still legacy where the cards are legal... so its not all bad
Reality is but a perception of your being --
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
What about people who play poker for the social benefits? They enjoy sitting with friends for a few hours ad playing cards. A lot of Magic Casual groups are like that as well. More for who you see than what you play. Magic is merely the social Grease.
You should read them.
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen"
Bravo.
kudos to Elysium for the sweet banner
of course, some people are going to have fun against challenging decks, it wouldn't make sense to say 'no one is having fun', because if no one was having fun at all, no one would play those challenging decks
what caught my eye though, is this passage
I see a glaring flaw in this argument
this is basically a very well hidden way of saying "made a bad deck? build a better one"
your suggestion of building a deck to specifically 'undermine' another deck IS letting your opponent ruin your fun, because by making such a deck your opponent is defining what you play
so let's go along with this hypothetical situation, you're running kithkin and your opponent is running this lock
you find a solution... but it's in black (again hypothetically, off the top of my head I can't figure out a way to best this unless you slaughter pact and the other guy's tapped out or something)
now... black kithkin?
even if you were trying to tell a story, how would you even do it anymore?
if you include kithkin, you'd be sacrificing the efficiency of your deck to undermine said strategy by trying to still enjoy the game yourself
I don't think "go make a deck that beats this one" is the answer for casual players
Or not, it's completely up to you. It's just an idea.
You should read them.
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen"