This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, [MTGS Classics] What Are You Doing On Turn Two?. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
Oh man, I remember the first time this went up. I had just learned the merits of the Karoo right before it did.
I also remember that before this article, nobody played those lands. After it, everyone did, and that continues to today.
I love this article. Well-written, with good supporting logic. Not to mention it changed Magic as thousands (or more) played it.
As time and experience has shown, Karoos are deck- and metagame-dependent. Great in some decks, terrible in others.
However, it seemed like the author slammed Signets in this article. I got the impression that he or she didn't see a lot of Constructed uses for them, which would be a mistake. Signets are a significant reason why the Tron is amazing in Standard and Extended.
heh
I didn't used to know this (this is the first time I have seen this article, I'll be honest) and I used to whine about dual lands being so pricey, but over the course of deckbuilding I fell in love with karoos. The amount to which they smooth your mana is just amazing; I consider two-land hands with 1 karoo perfectly viable, while most of my two non-karoo-land hands are just not.
Signets can have their uses though. I have some control dex I mess around with that like thet dignets for acceleration (yes you waste turn 2, but they let you get that turn 3 Vigor Mortis on that Akroma you pitched to Lightning Axe during your opponent's Turn 2, and win )
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i don't think anyone in my area has ever thought this low of karoos. we've always played them
and signets are good because they allow 4 mana on turn 3 (unless you played a bounce land)
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My area has also never thought so little of Karoos or Signets. They just are what they are, perfectly designed COMMON mana fixers and accelerants. Yes Karoos are accelarants too when you need to hardcast Angel of Despair or Akroma from your Solar Flare deck. They're def no Sakura Tribe Elder, but they are certainly not bad.
Yeah, bounce lands are pretty awesome... if you're not playing green. They're very comparable to a 1-2 mana Kodama's Reach, which means that green players should be up in arms that, between the bouncelands, signets, and urzatron, no one comes to them for mana accel anymore.
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Yeah i couldn't believe he heralded glimpse the unthinkable as an awesome turn 2 play though lol. Anyways with the bounce lands soon leaving urzatron also and the signets. I think green acceleration in lands will be back also farseek is highly underrated in 3+ color decks that pack green.
I must say, I only skimmed this article, so my perspcetive of it may not be entirely accurate.
I didn't like the article early on, until I saw the bit about mana potential. That is the reason to play bouncelands, and IMO, all the other arguements he made (cost, "hidden land") seemed pretty lame (I left out comboness because with stuff like Tendo Ice Bridge as he points out, or Gemstone Mine for a more modern card, you actually have a pretty nice synergy, which, although not game-breaking, is still nice).
In the intrest of fairness, I am pro-bounceland, especially for slower decks (although, they're not bad in Boros as ways to run enough mana for a game-breaking Demonfire without having to run lots of lands).
Also, it seems to me that a bounceland on turn two is not the ideal time to play it. Rather, you want 'em later on in the game (like turn 4-5ish, IMO) so that you can still use your mana for relevant stuff, or still have countermana open.
Anyway, just my two cents. Feel free to agree or disagree.
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I think that the bounce lands are some of the best lands of MTG because , they are common in first place, as you say in your article they can be droped in decks with a lot of 2cc drops and if you thin a little they can also be dropped in decks with no 2cc drops, anyway i think bounce lands are great. Having 4 in a deck is like having 8
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This is the ultimate combo to win the game on turn 3
The amount to which they smooth your mana is just amazing; I consider two-land hands with 1 karoo perfectly viable, while most of my two non-karoo-land hands are just not.
And when the opponent goes T1 Stomping Ground, Kird Ape, T2 Scab-Clan Mauler when you have only one land in play, does it look so viable then? Or when he goes T1 Stomping Ground, Birds of Paradise, T2 Stone Rain? Or T1 Watery Grave, T2 Island, Boomerang for the double Time Walk?
It is undeniable that karoos are very good, but they're not the godsend that some people make them out to be. And they're not good in every hand and against every deck. I'm glad the author addressed things like looking at your deck's curve and what things you need to play, because failing to do so leads to the kind of woolly thinking that leads someone in my group to play four Gruul Turf in Heezy Street.
And when the opponent goes T1 Stomping Ground, Kird Ape, T2 Scab-Clan Mauler when you have only one land in play, does it look so viable then? Or when he goes T1 Stomping Ground, Birds of Paradise, T2 Stone Rain? Or T1 Watery Grave, T2 Island, Boomerang for the double Time Walk?
I agree.
I think they are good, but they just dropped a little when red LD became consistent.
Turn 2 now has Boom, or stone rain with the SSG .... in extended it has molten rain + stone rain. All consistent at turn 2... in the past red only had stuff like raze...
Red has always had LD, regardless, bouncelands are obviously very good. Card advantage is key, they also synergize with Compulsive research, and to some extent, with Wildfire. Tons of decks run them: Tron, Vore, Flare, Boros, Angelfire, Dralnu, Panda, in fact I'd say more run them than don't. Basically, good call man, although the Glimpse comment....and Selesnya evangel comments were pretty much completely false.
And when the opponent goes T1 Stomping Ground, Kird Ape, T2 Scab-Clan Mauler when you have only one land in play, does it look so viable then? Or when he goes T1 Stomping Ground, Birds of Paradise, T2 Stone Rain? Or T1 Watery Grave, T2 Island, Boomerang for the double Time Walk?
It is undeniable that karoos are very good, but they're not the godsend that some people make them out to be. And they're not good in every hand and against every deck. I'm glad the author addressed things like looking at your deck's curve and what things you need to play, because failing to do so leads to the kind of woolly thinking that leads someone in my group to play four Gruul Turf in Heezy Street.
This is comparable to saying why play creatures when my opponent can play Wrath of God, or Damnation even and if he's luck, on turn 3 . Everything has a weakness. I don't recall anyone claiming them to be a godsend, but at common, it was a nice gift to the budget player.
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I also remember that before this article, nobody played those lands. After it, everyone did, and that continues to today.
I love this article. Well-written, with good supporting logic. Not to mention it changed Magic as thousands (or more) played it.
However, it seemed like the author slammed Signets in this article. I got the impression that he or she didn't see a lot of Constructed uses for them, which would be a mistake. Signets are a significant reason why the Tron is amazing in Standard and Extended.
Assuming a deck can run a full complent of Pains, Shocks and Karoos, does it need Signets?
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I didn't used to know this (this is the first time I have seen this article, I'll be honest) and I used to whine about dual lands being so pricey, but over the course of deckbuilding I fell in love with karoos. The amount to which they smooth your mana is just amazing; I consider two-land hands with 1 karoo perfectly viable, while most of my two non-karoo-land hands are just not.
Signets can have their uses though. I have some control dex I mess around with that like thet dignets for acceleration (yes you waste turn 2, but they let you get that turn 3 Vigor Mortis on that Akroma you pitched to Lightning Axe during your opponent's Turn 2, and win )
Hey, is there anyone else on the forums going to Rice University in Houston? We could ALWAYS use more people in our Magic games. PM me if you want to play sometime
and signets are good because they allow 4 mana on turn 3 (unless you played a bounce land)
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Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
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Cool stuff here.
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Well, remember, this was originally written shortly after Ravnica became legal. Hence why he only says there's four bouncelands.
I didn't like the article early on, until I saw the bit about mana potential. That is the reason to play bouncelands, and IMO, all the other arguements he made (cost, "hidden land") seemed pretty lame (I left out comboness because with stuff like Tendo Ice Bridge as he points out, or Gemstone Mine for a more modern card, you actually have a pretty nice synergy, which, although not game-breaking, is still nice).
In the intrest of fairness, I am pro-bounceland, especially for slower decks (although, they're not bad in Boros as ways to run enough mana for a game-breaking Demonfire without having to run lots of lands).
Also, it seems to me that a bounceland on turn two is not the ideal time to play it. Rather, you want 'em later on in the game (like turn 4-5ish, IMO) so that you can still use your mana for relevant stuff, or still have countermana open.
Anyway, just my two cents. Feel free to agree or disagree.
good article btw, though what piqued my interest was the "what would you do on turn 2" liner =)
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881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Read the thread before responding, tanx.
Stone Rain.
While I like Tendo Ice Bridge its really not as good as Gemstone Mine especially when you add Karoos into the mix.
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Having 4 in a deck is like having 8
Sig by Heroes of the Plane Studios (Nakamura , DarkNightCavalier, XenoNinja)
This is the ultimate combo to win the game on turn 3
Turn 2.-vault of whispers,cephalid broker
Turn 3.-swamp,plagiarize
And when the opponent goes T1 Stomping Ground, Kird Ape, T2 Scab-Clan Mauler when you have only one land in play, does it look so viable then? Or when he goes T1 Stomping Ground, Birds of Paradise, T2 Stone Rain? Or T1 Watery Grave, T2 Island, Boomerang for the double Time Walk?
It is undeniable that karoos are very good, but they're not the godsend that some people make them out to be. And they're not good in every hand and against every deck. I'm glad the author addressed things like looking at your deck's curve and what things you need to play, because failing to do so leads to the kind of woolly thinking that leads someone in my group to play four Gruul Turf in Heezy Street.
I agree.
I think they are good, but they just dropped a little when red LD became consistent.
Turn 2 now has Boom, or stone rain with the SSG .... in extended it has molten rain + stone rain. All consistent at turn 2... in the past red only had stuff like raze...
Reality is but a perception of your being --
Visit my blog!!! - http://huffalump-magic.blogspot.com/
"The brain is wider than the sky,
For, put them side by side,
The one the other will include
With ease, and you beside."
—Emily Dickinson
For sales or trade, visit my blog or visit my ebay blog for my listings :http://myworld.ebay.com/arcane7828
881
Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
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This is comparable to saying why play creatures when my opponent can play Wrath of God, or Damnation even and if he's luck, on turn 3 . Everything has a weakness. I don't recall anyone claiming them to be a godsend, but at common, it was a nice gift to the budget player.
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.