This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, Battle of the Sets VIII: Introduction Part 2. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
I no so sure I like the idea of battleing the best vs the best first I think it should of been randomized (not that it matters ofcourse my boy Torment is going to win all the way)
I suspect you have Dissension overrated here. Its best hands are obviously going to be impressive, but it looks mediocre apart from that.
Still, I guess that's what the games are for. Looking forward to being proved wrong !
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
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<Limited Clan>
Isn't Jagged Poppet better than Squealing Devil? Hellbent isn't very difficult to achieve (none of your cards can get stuck in your hand, especially with three discard outlets), and it's a monster against control decks, Onslaught basically being the only one that can exploit its drawback.
In a format so rife with creatures, the drawback to Jagged Poppet is quite harsh. I also don't think that achieving hellbent is worth discarding your entire hand. I wouldn't be whistling Zipidee-do-da if my whole hand was gone due to creature combat and Onslaught is not the only deck that can exploit it's drawback.
Also Squealing Devil is great. It's a 2 mana 2 power creature that has evasion, it also can eat up extra mana to make an attack more potent. In a Sligh type deck, you want that great curve to inflict as much damage as possible on an opponent, so that evasion and burn can end the game.
Was any thought given to adding red to the Selesnya guild for Char? It seems like two of the absolute best from Ravnica won't see play, Char and Dark Confidant.
IMO, the best decks need to meet in the final matches, not the first.
Gogo Stronghold! Coolest Deck, I mean, its combo, eh?
Tho Weatherlight should have paired against some1 it probably loses to, like The Dark
When Stronghold wins against Weatherlight, it has a good matchup against Legions (which probably wins against the Dark)
I'm really happy to see this again, thumbs up for you, Alfred & Legends
@Travis: The best decks DO face them late. Tier 1 is not playing against Tier 1, but rather against Tier 5!
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Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
it appears that none of the decks have sideboards...and thus living wish would be a dead card when you have nothing available to grab
Yeah, I did notice that. However, since there is no sideboarding allowed between the games it would be rather pointless for decks without wishes to use one. Other formats that don't use sideboards have, traditionally, included an optional sideboard for the sole purpose of enabling wish targets though, that's why I proposed Living Wish.
Thoughts on Dissension Deck : Have you considered taking out the Dungeon Palaces for Ghost Quarters? I mean, the deck isn't exactly focused on getting hellbent and already has a significant amount of disruption in the form of 4 X Rise/Fall and 4 X Rakdos Augermage. Ghost quarter would really help in matchups against Antiquities, Mirrodin, and other dirty decks that run lots of nonbasics.
I'm just posting this here because the discussion seems to have shifted from the part 1 thread to here. What do you think of this alternative list for The Dark. It looks more powerful to me than the current build.
I know you guys don't change lists, but the ravnica deck really needs a red splash. The deck becomes so much better with Lightning Helix and Firemane Angel. Firemane > Tolsimir Wolfblood. GWr Glare was the deck to beat in RBC before Guildpact came out. Also, you might want to consider a GWB Control deck. I feel like Ravnica is probably the second strongest set for single set constructed (2nd to Mirrodin) and that GW Glare isn't the best way to go. hell, I would have even have played GWBr Control.
I also think you guys are underrating Guildpact. We'll see how things work out in the tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised if Guildpact beat a Tier 1 deck like Apocalypse or Tempest.
I know you guys don't change lists, but the ravnica deck really needs a red splash. The deck becomes so much better with Lightning Helix and Firemane Angel. Firemane > Tolsimir Wolfblood. GWr Glare was the deck to beat in RBC before Guildpact came out. Also, you might want to consider a GWB Control deck. I feel like Ravnica is probably the second strongest set for single set constructed (2nd to Mirrodin) and that GW Glare isn't the best way to go. hell, I would have even have played GWBr Control.
I also think you guys are underrating Guildpact. We'll see how things work out in the tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised if Guildpact beat a Tier 1 deck like Apocalypse or Tempest.
It's not that we don't change decks or take suggestions, we just wait until after the tournament to change things. I'll try out some of your suggestions! Thanks!
When I saw you were making an (obviously) W/G Judgement deck, I thought that surely you must have the ridiculous power of Miraris Wake in there. But no Wake. You're sure that it isn't good? :/ Or Phantom Nish? Hes quite good.. or the Centaur, hes good too.. lots of options here. To me it seems like playing a Phantom Nish would allow the deck to completely and utterly swing the game in your favor vs so many of these decks.
Also, why doesn't Torment play Mutilate? In the last 2 yrs reviews that I read just now, every time Torment casted its Land D spell, I was thinking "Boy, if that card were Mutilate, all those Thopters would just bite it hard..." or "boy, topdecking Mutilate would outright win the game again here too". Maybe I'm missing something here, but in a format where only 3 of the decks don't rely on creatures to win, Wrath of God seems quite strong.
Course, you've been doing it for some time now, so there has to be a reason.
When I saw you were making an (obviously) W/G Judgement deck, I thought that surely you must have the ridiculous power of Miraris Wake in there. But no Wake. You're sure that it isn't good? :/ Or Phantom Nish? Hes quite good.. or the Centaur, hes good too.. lots of options here. To me it seems like playing a Phantom Nish would allow the deck to completely and utterly swing the game in your favor vs so many of these decks.
Also, why doesn't Torment play Mutilate? In the last 2 yrs reviews that I read just now, every time Torment casted its Land D spell, I was thinking "Boy, if that card were Mutilate, all those Thopters would just bite it hard..." or "boy, topdecking Mutilate would outright win the game again here too". Maybe I'm missing something here, but in a format where only 3 of the decks don't rely on creatures to win, Wrath of God seems quite strong.
Course, you've been doing it for some time now, so there has to be a reason.
First of all, Mutilate is run in this version of Torment, however, it runs only 2, because it is still an aggro deck. It will function as an emergency removal spell, but is obviously shouldn't be a four or even 3 of, because a lot of the time it would work at cross purposes, especially with Nightmare creatures. However, it does work to reset the board when Torment starts to lose, and that's the reason for 2.
To answer the first question, Judgement ran a WG Wake centric deck, with Crush of Wurms, Nishoba, and other Wake centric cards, but wasn't successful with that deck. I also wonder why you have singled out Judgement as a deck to change, as it has been doing very well recently, beating good to excellent decks like Onslaught and Arabian Nights, and advancing deeper into the tournament than it ever has in the past and all of this happening after the deck was changed to the current version.
I didn't see any of the old ones with that in it, but obviously if you tried that and it didn't work, well, then it doesn't work. I also assumed that the power-boosting of Wake would be a big benefit to the small creatures, or to the Phantom creatures which couldn't actually die to pretty well anything when the Wake is in play. I just didn't think you'd have to play it with all fat critters. Battle Screech turn 4, then Wake turn 5, then the rest of your hand... ok, so thats a dream draw, but still, just my thinking, I guess. Combos well with making invincable phantoms, I guess.
Also thought I'd recommend the G/W 4/4 First Striking man-land. In a 2 color deck, in the late game, its another thing to drive the hammer home.
This I'm sure is noone's real concern, but I think Coldsnap looks subpar to what it could have been. A counter deck is nice, but the curve looks HORRIBLE. I think Coldsteel heart could have been worked in, and I am also shocked at the lack of Skred, Chill to the Bone, Chilling Shade, Garza Zol, Frost Raptor, Jester's Scepter, Krovikan Rot, Mouth of Ronom, Rimebound Dead.. and that is only on a minor Red splash if that is even used. It seems that the counters in the deck will always be sub-par. I mean I like the idea.. but it seems to lack a way to stop the rush. White have the Shackles, Sunscour, Vanish Into Memory.. The Black you seem to be splashing is just for the Specter??? The rot is a reusable weenie killer (maybe a 1 of) the Scepter is a way to possibly catch a few easy counters. Chill to the Bone is the expensive Rend Flesh. Mouth of Ronomo I know is a long stretch, but it is snow and a colorless way to pop 4 toughness. The reason I mention Skred is that it is a 1 mana burn spell that says I do damage=lands... that is HUGE, splashable.. and I think should be considered. The Raptor and Garza are more Aggro-Control Creaetures, and I think retooling the inefficent couter base could make this deck more like that and that seems to be the way to win IMO. That isn't even touching on the Yeti (the FTK's lil brother). I just think that when your hard coutners are 4cc, and your other control seems to be high cc.. maybe a more dedicated smoother curve might be a change.. the tourney will tell.. I mean I may be crazy too.
I really enjoyed reading the previous battle of the sets, and I'm eagerly looking forward to reading this one - you do an excellent job with it.
On a side note, I was curious - think you might ever do a Battle of the Guilds? I myself have a deck for each guild and have often thought about pitting them against each other.
I think it will end up being a bit too much like a battle of the Ravnica block precons. The nice thing about sets, too, is that they give a clear deliniation of what can go in a deck and what can't. So there are always other options for colors in each set that you could make decks out of. Guild decks have a little too much of the "makes themselves" thing going for them.
You totally got me hooked on this tourney and now theres no post up?! ahhhhh who won the play in....please post or I might have to just build the decks and run one myself.
Still, I guess that's what the games are for. Looking forward to being proved wrong !
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
My thought exactly I actually think the Orzhov deck might have a better chance because of its versatility.
Nitpick: It's Ravnica, not Ravinca
Edit: Another question popped up in my head. Is there a reason not to include Living Wish in the Judgement decklist? That way you can use a sideboard with silver bullets. Genesis, Nantuko Monastery, Nullmage Advocate, Phantom Centaur, Phantom Nishoba, Silver Seraph, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Valor all seem like fine to good options (some of those like the Safekeeper could even go maindeck).
In a format so rife with creatures, the drawback to Jagged Poppet is quite harsh. I also don't think that achieving hellbent is worth discarding your entire hand. I wouldn't be whistling Zipidee-do-da if my whole hand was gone due to creature combat and Onslaught is not the only deck that can exploit it's drawback.
Also Squealing Devil is great. It's a 2 mana 2 power creature that has evasion, it also can eat up extra mana to make an attack more potent. In a Sligh type deck, you want that great curve to inflict as much damage as possible on an opponent, so that evasion and burn can end the game.
it appears that none of the decks have sideboards...and thus living wish would be a dead card when you have nothing available to grab
IMO, the best decks need to meet in the final matches, not the first.
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
Tho Weatherlight should have paired against some1 it probably loses to, like The Dark
When Stronghold wins against Weatherlight, it has a good matchup against Legions (which probably wins against the Dark)
I'm really happy to see this again, thumbs up for you, Alfred & Legends
@Travis: The best decks DO face them late. Tier 1 is not playing against Tier 1, but rather against Tier 5!
Yeah, I did notice that. However, since there is no sideboarding allowed between the games it would be rather pointless for decks without wishes to use one. Other formats that don't use sideboards have, traditionally, included an optional sideboard for the sole purpose of enabling wish targets though, that's why I proposed Living Wish.
I guess I have two questions: 1 - how did you determine the brackets and 2 - when and who is playing the matches?
I also think you guys are underrating Guildpact. We'll see how things work out in the tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised if Guildpact beat a Tier 1 deck like Apocalypse or Tempest.
It's not that we don't change decks or take suggestions, we just wait until after the tournament to change things. I'll try out some of your suggestions! Thanks!
Also, why doesn't Torment play Mutilate? In the last 2 yrs reviews that I read just now, every time Torment casted its Land D spell, I was thinking "Boy, if that card were Mutilate, all those Thopters would just bite it hard..." or "boy, topdecking Mutilate would outright win the game again here too". Maybe I'm missing something here, but in a format where only 3 of the decks don't rely on creatures to win, Wrath of God seems quite strong.
Course, you've been doing it for some time now, so there has to be a reason.
First of all, Mutilate is run in this version of Torment, however, it runs only 2, because it is still an aggro deck. It will function as an emergency removal spell, but is obviously shouldn't be a four or even 3 of, because a lot of the time it would work at cross purposes, especially with Nightmare creatures. However, it does work to reset the board when Torment starts to lose, and that's the reason for 2.
To answer the first question, Judgement ran a WG Wake centric deck, with Crush of Wurms, Nishoba, and other Wake centric cards, but wasn't successful with that deck. I also wonder why you have singled out Judgement as a deck to change, as it has been doing very well recently, beating good to excellent decks like Onslaught and Arabian Nights, and advancing deeper into the tournament than it ever has in the past and all of this happening after the deck was changed to the current version.
Also thought I'd recommend the G/W 4/4 First Striking man-land. In a 2 color deck, in the late game, its another thing to drive the hammer home.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube
I really enjoyed reading the previous battle of the sets, and I'm eagerly looking forward to reading this one - you do an excellent job with it.
On a side note, I was curious - think you might ever do a Battle of the Guilds? I myself have a deck for each guild and have often thought about pitting them against each other.
Loose Change Pauper Cube-cast
Pauper Cube Article #1
Pauper Cube Article #2
Personal Enjoyment Cube