Both are located in Miami. Both are skilled in what they do. I have rapid dexter fans that are friends that think Westen doesn't stand a chance. I'm going with Westen, all the way.
My reasoning is because Michael Westen is not just self-trained, he is military trained. As far as I can recall, Dexter is not trained in his combat or skills in any official capacity, he just seems to know what he's doing.
To clarify further, I am referring to seasons 1-3 dexter, when his head was clear, and the writers were trying to turn the show into a soap opera.
Westen has resources that are insurmountable in the face of Dexter. Even beside all of that, I don't think in straight hand to hand combat Dexter has a chance.
I left the poll available with multiple options to account for teams, and individual.
While Western does have military experience, I wouldn't give it so easily to him in regards to hand to hand combat.
Let's not forget in season one of Dexter when Dexter managed to defend himself successfully against James Doakes, who was also an Army Ranger and a former Black Ops operative. Proving that he can handle a man with military training in hand to hand combat.
Like LuckNorris said, Dexer is more than capable of handling himself in hand to hand situations. But really that doesn't matter. Dexter is simply too smart for Western. Too cold and too calculating. Dexter just doesn't make mistakes (especially season 1-3 Dex). Dexter always has the element of surprise too. There is no need for a fight because his victims never know he's coming, they just feel a pinch and then wake up strapped to a table. Since Western doesn't have eyes in the back of his head or some sort of "sense" like Spider-Man he'll never know Dex is coming. Dexter takes this hands down.
While Western does have military experience, I wouldn't give it so easily to him in regards to hand to hand combat.
Let's not forget in season one of Dexter when Dexter managed to defend himself successfully against James Doakes, who was also an Army Ranger and a former Black Ops operative. Proving that he can handle a man with military training in hand to hand combat.
Now, needless to say, both are forces to reckoned with. Furthermore, I should advise you that I have not watched enough of Burn Notice to produce a fair, thorough evaluation of Westen.
That having been said and watching the entirety of the programme Dexter, it seems that Doakes, indeed another one-time Army Ranger, is incomparable to Westen. In fact, it seems that either the bar for a Ranger is quite low or Westen is some nut who meets and exceeds expectations.
Mano e mano, Westen beats Morgan. With things, Westen beats Morgan again.
I understand that Dexter is a crafty, clever and calculating guy, but Westen is a professional and, even if he doesn't set out to kill Dexter, he couldn't possibly not notice Dexter's reconnaissance and crap. Also, there is no way Dexter could administer a therapeutic or lethal dose of etorphine, much less have it achieve the desired effect without Westen doing something before passing out; suspension of reality allows for people to pass out instantly, but reality is it takes a little longer to pass out.
Dexter is a small fry, dispensing of petty criminals, compared to Westen, who takes out international criminals and other professional agents/spies. One is serial vigilante justice; the other is extrajudicial disappearances and all that.
In terms of real life, Michael C. Hall beats Jeffrey Donovan.
Like LuckNorris said, Dexer is more than capable of handling himself in hand to hand situations. But really that doesn't matter. Dexter is simply too smart for Western. Too cold and too calculating. Dexter just doesn't make mistakes (especially season 1-3 Dex). Dexter always has the element of surprise too. There is no need for a fight because his victims never know he's coming, they just feel a pinch and then wake up strapped to a table. Since Western doesn't have eyes in the back of his head or some sort of "sense" like Spider-Man he'll never know Dex is coming. Dexter takes this hands down.
There is a distinct lack of mistake-making on the part of either man, as generally tends to be the case with Mary Sues.
If Dexter went after Michael while Michael was ignorant of his existence, the way he goes after most of his victims, then of course he'd have the advantage. The problem is, that's not how it would go down. Michael isn't a bad guy; attacking him unprovoked would be a total violation of Dexter's code. The only way these two characters come into conflict is if Michael initiates it: he becomes aware that a serial killer is at large in the city, and sets out to take him out. From there, Dexter loses the element of surprise, and Michael's already-mentioned superior training and resources, plus his own crazy-preparedness, give him a decisive advantage. He's an old hand at defeating ambushes by multiple assailants with automatic weapons; he's not going to let one guy sneak up on him with a syringe full of barbiturates.
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The only way these two characters come into conflict is if Michael initiates it: he becomes aware that a serial killer is at large in the city, and sets out to take him out.
Except that's not going to initiate anything either because Michael isn't going to be able to figure out who said killer is. A whole FBI task force and almost every police detective that sees Dex on an almost daily basis couldn't figure it. I have no reason to believe Michael magically holds the key to figuring out the identity of "The Bay Harbor Butcher". Don't forget that rule one of Dexter's code is don't get caught. He doesn't leave evidence behind and Michael would have nothing to go on to even begin looking for him.
I think this thread is missing something. OP needs to set the stage for this showdown and set some perimeters. Where are these two meeting? How are they meeting? Are there any rules as far as what kinds of resources they can use? There's too much grey area here IMO.
There is a distinct lack of mistake-making on the part of either man, as generally tends to be the case with Mary Sues.
If Dexter went after Michael while Michael was ignorant of his existence, the way he goes after most of his victims, then of course he'd have the advantage. The problem is, that's not how it would go down. Michael isn't a bad guy; attacking him unprovoked would be a total violation of Dexter's code. The only way these two characters come into conflict is if Michael initiates it: he becomes aware that a serial killer is at large in the city, and sets out to take him out. From there, Dexter loses the element of surprise, and Michael's already-mentioned superior training and resources, plus his own crazy-preparedness, give him a decisive advantage. He's an old hand at defeating ambushes by multiple assailants with automatic weapons; he's not going to let one guy sneak up on him with a syringe full of barbiturates.
I know my anaesthetics and other drugs. I have used them on humans and other animals.
Etorphine isn't a barbiturate (trivial in comparison to the bigger issues here; edit: actually, upon second thought, it sort of is a big deal, as chemical structure is what makes all the difference [like anatomy, structure/function relationship is key], and etorphine's structure is totally different from a barbie's structure), and very few anaesthetics (actually, I mean sedatives) have such pronounced effect and short induction times (not to mention latency). As much practise as one could do, stabbing dummies in any vessel, there would be issues such as accurately stabbing a person as desired and successful administration of the drug (and then waiting for it kick in). Now, Dexter probably wouldn't care about causing damage to the surrounding tissue (haematoma, etc.), but that's certainly worth keeping in mind as he victim (here, Westen) would probably flail and break Dexter's arm and tear out his heart from his thoracic cavity, then eat it.
In practice, Dexter sedating people is a big stretch if he's up against Westen.
With all of the unsuspecting chumps, fine; though, it's still absurd, as the drugs do not work as depicted. In these cases, he may very well use a well-timed grenade instead.
Or Dexter should simply try to stab people in the throat and tear a role in their throats.
Don't forget that rule one of Dexter's code is don't get caught. He doesn't leave evidence behind and Michael would have nothing to go on to even begin looking for him.
Harry's Code is a joke, and Dexter hasn't been completely consistent or faithful to it.
I think this thread is missing something. OP needs to set the stage for this showdown and set some perimeters. Where are these two meeting? How are they meeting? Are there any rules as far as what kinds of resources they can use? There's too much grey area here IMO.
I presume you meant parameters. Well, obviously, unless it's equivocal that one of them is in all regards and by far the superior of the two, you can always say "but this" or "but that".
And then you could simply suggest that the winner of a fight between Westen or Morgan is simply who the hell is writing the script or is entertaining the thought.
Dexter is just too sloppy, to get to Michael effectively. Doakes figures him out relatively quickly, and Michael is ultimately a much better detective. Dexter's need to surveil, stalk, and drug his victims and move them to a kill room also buys Michael time, and his friends time to track him down.
Think about it. What does Dexter do first with every person he targets? He researches them through his computer. If he tried to use the police database on Westen, the Feds would know about it in a heart beat, and Westen would find out through one of his contacts, or at least it would introduce a conflict.
Westen is also an expert at spotting a tail, and would figure out Dexter's schtick real quick (he notices someone following them every other episode, and Dexter always uses his own damn car).
I feel like Westen would realize someone was following him and set a trap.
Except that's not going to initiate anything either because Michael isn't going to be able to figure out who said killer is. A whole FBI task force and almost every police detective that sees Dex on an almost daily basis couldn't figure it.
Don't forget that rule one of Dexter's code is don't get caught. He doesn't leave evidence behind and Michael would have nothing to go on to even begin looking for him.
Oh, he tries not to get caught. So that's what all those other criminals are doing wrong.
Dexter is not a wizard. He has plot armor within his own series because the writers and audience are (disturbingly) rooting for him. But in protagonist-vs.-protagonist conflicts, we have to assume that all plot armor is off, or else of course there would be no resolution at all. And without plot armor, as Jay13x pointed out, Dexter's methods are actually pretty fallible. A real FBI taskforce would probably catch him. He kills with great frequency, his victims fit a distinctive profile, he follows a strict modus operandi, he works in a fixed and circumscribed geographical area. These are all serious liabilities for Team Dexter.
To be fair, I will concede that Michael's experience and training are mainly in identifying intelligence agents, not serial killers. Dexter-hunting is not precisely his forte. But I'm pretty confident that those counterintelligence skills are cross-applicable to this task. And at any rate, with the plot armor off, it's far more reasonable to say "A trained wetwork agent is not going to be caught alone and off-guard by a strange man with a syringe" than "A mentally disturbed man is going to commit the perfect murder, leaving no evidence whatsoever, dozens of times over."
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My reasoning is because Michael Westen is not just self-trained, he is military trained. As far as I can recall, Dexter is not trained in his combat or skills in any official capacity, he just seems to know what he's doing.
To clarify further, I am referring to seasons 1-3 dexter, when his head was clear, and the writers were trying to turn the show into a soap opera.
Westen has resources that are insurmountable in the face of Dexter. Even beside all of that, I don't think in straight hand to hand combat Dexter has a chance.
I left the poll available with multiple options to account for teams, and individual.
Let's not forget in season one of Dexter when Dexter managed to defend himself successfully against James Doakes, who was also an Army Ranger and a former Black Ops operative. Proving that he can handle a man with military training in hand to hand combat.
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Now, needless to say, both are forces to reckoned with. Furthermore, I should advise you that I have not watched enough of Burn Notice to produce a fair, thorough evaluation of Westen.
That having been said and watching the entirety of the programme Dexter, it seems that Doakes, indeed another one-time Army Ranger, is incomparable to Westen. In fact, it seems that either the bar for a Ranger is quite low or Westen is some nut who meets and exceeds expectations.
Mano e mano, Westen beats Morgan. With things, Westen beats Morgan again.
I understand that Dexter is a crafty, clever and calculating guy, but Westen is a professional and, even if he doesn't set out to kill Dexter, he couldn't possibly not notice Dexter's reconnaissance and crap. Also, there is no way Dexter could administer a therapeutic or lethal dose of etorphine, much less have it achieve the desired effect without Westen doing something before passing out; suspension of reality allows for people to pass out instantly, but reality is it takes a little longer to pass out.
Dexter is a small fry, dispensing of petty criminals, compared to Westen, who takes out international criminals and other professional agents/spies. One is serial vigilante justice; the other is extrajudicial disappearances and all that.
In terms of real life, Michael C. Hall beats Jeffrey Donovan.
There is a distinct lack of mistake-making on the part of either man, as generally tends to be the case with Mary Sues.
If Dexter went after Michael while Michael was ignorant of his existence, the way he goes after most of his victims, then of course he'd have the advantage. The problem is, that's not how it would go down. Michael isn't a bad guy; attacking him unprovoked would be a total violation of Dexter's code. The only way these two characters come into conflict is if Michael initiates it: he becomes aware that a serial killer is at large in the city, and sets out to take him out. From there, Dexter loses the element of surprise, and Michael's already-mentioned superior training and resources, plus his own crazy-preparedness, give him a decisive advantage. He's an old hand at defeating ambushes by multiple assailants with automatic weapons; he's not going to let one guy sneak up on him with a syringe full of barbiturates.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Except that's not going to initiate anything either because Michael isn't going to be able to figure out who said killer is. A whole FBI task force and almost every police detective that sees Dex on an almost daily basis couldn't figure it. I have no reason to believe Michael magically holds the key to figuring out the identity of "The Bay Harbor Butcher". Don't forget that rule one of Dexter's code is don't get caught. He doesn't leave evidence behind and Michael would have nothing to go on to even begin looking for him.
I think this thread is missing something. OP needs to set the stage for this showdown and set some perimeters. Where are these two meeting? How are they meeting? Are there any rules as far as what kinds of resources they can use? There's too much grey area here IMO.
I know my anaesthetics and other drugs. I have used them on humans and other animals.
Etorphine isn't a barbiturate (trivial in comparison to the bigger issues here; edit: actually, upon second thought, it sort of is a big deal, as chemical structure is what makes all the difference [like anatomy, structure/function relationship is key], and etorphine's structure is totally different from a barbie's structure), and very few anaesthetics (actually, I mean sedatives) have such pronounced effect and short induction times (not to mention latency). As much practise as one could do, stabbing dummies in any vessel, there would be issues such as accurately stabbing a person as desired and successful administration of the drug (and then waiting for it kick in). Now, Dexter probably wouldn't care about causing damage to the surrounding tissue (haematoma, etc.), but that's certainly worth keeping in mind as he victim (here, Westen) would probably flail and break Dexter's arm and tear out his heart from his thoracic cavity, then eat it.
In practice, Dexter sedating people is a big stretch if he's up against Westen.
With all of the unsuspecting chumps, fine; though, it's still absurd, as the drugs do not work as depicted. In these cases, he may very well use a well-timed grenade instead.
Or Dexter should simply try to stab people in the throat and tear a role in their throats.
Harry's Code is a joke, and Dexter hasn't been completely consistent or faithful to it.
I presume you meant parameters. Well, obviously, unless it's equivocal that one of them is in all regards and by far the superior of the two, you can always say "but this" or "but that".
And then you could simply suggest that the winner of a fight between Westen or Morgan is simply who the hell is writing the script or is entertaining the thought.
Dexter is just too sloppy, to get to Michael effectively. Doakes figures him out relatively quickly, and Michael is ultimately a much better detective. Dexter's need to surveil, stalk, and drug his victims and move them to a kill room also buys Michael time, and his friends time to track him down.
Think about it. What does Dexter do first with every person he targets? He researches them through his computer. If he tried to use the police database on Westen, the Feds would know about it in a heart beat, and Westen would find out through one of his contacts, or at least it would introduce a conflict.
Westen is also an expert at spotting a tail, and would figure out Dexter's schtick real quick (he notices someone following them every other episode, and Dexter always uses his own damn car).
I feel like Westen would realize someone was following him and set a trap.
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Oh, he tries not to get caught. So that's what all those other criminals are doing wrong.
Dexter is not a wizard. He has plot armor within his own series because the writers and audience are (disturbingly) rooting for him. But in protagonist-vs.-protagonist conflicts, we have to assume that all plot armor is off, or else of course there would be no resolution at all. And without plot armor, as Jay13x pointed out, Dexter's methods are actually pretty fallible. A real FBI taskforce would probably catch him. He kills with great frequency, his victims fit a distinctive profile, he follows a strict modus operandi, he works in a fixed and circumscribed geographical area. These are all serious liabilities for Team Dexter.
To be fair, I will concede that Michael's experience and training are mainly in identifying intelligence agents, not serial killers. Dexter-hunting is not precisely his forte. But I'm pretty confident that those counterintelligence skills are cross-applicable to this task. And at any rate, with the plot armor off, it's far more reasonable to say "A trained wetwork agent is not going to be caught alone and off-guard by a strange man with a syringe" than "A mentally disturbed man is going to commit the perfect murder, leaving no evidence whatsoever, dozens of times over."
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.