Isn't a light saber supposed to actually be a plasma device created by thermonuclear activity contained with in an EMF?
I mean, I don't have any problems with just suspending my disbelief on what actually makes a light saber, but if we are going to go down the path of meddling with it in battle, deciding on this might be a good idea. Of course, it may also be a good idea to ignore the science/non-science of how a light saber works.
It's not just light..... I agree with Ophidian that a lightsaber is more of a plasma....
Heck I just checked Wookiepedia:
"The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape. The hilt was almost always self-fabricated by the wielder to match his or her specific needs, preferences and style. Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using. However, in the hands of an expert of the Force, the lightsaber was a weapon to be greatly respected and feared. To wield a lightsaber was to demonstrate incredible skill and confidence, as well as masterful dexterity and attunement to the Force."
But can Yoda keep the saber working through his highly cultivated usage (dare I say mastery) of the force? I think Gandalf and Dumbledore would be better suited to disarm Yoda definitively, through destruction, transformation, or physically sending it so far away that Yoda can't retrieve it through the force.
I don't think these options are completely plausible during the beginning stages of the fight either. It comes down to swordsmanship between Yoda and Gandalf. I honestly couldn't compare the two. Both have extreme prowess in hand to hand combat and close range magics/force powers. I'm still going with Yoda is definitely the peer of team Wizard Guide.
I don't see how. It is entirely reasonable to assume that Dumbledore can use a disarming spell to fling away a light sabre just as it is reasonable to assume that Yoda can disarm Dumbledore's wand as well.
I've went through the liberty of quoting you some facts that state that Dumbledore is capable of using select magics even without his wand. I don't think this is much of a stretch either.
It is not unreasonable to assume that Gandalf and Dumbledore could apparrate, teleport, or magically force push out of Kirby's suction range.
The only argument I've seen that is moderately silly is the "turning off the light sabre" spell. Mostly because that's not even necessary when you consider that Gandalf can simply break it with a simple power word or that Dumbledore could transfigure it into a twig.
Yoda is certainly the peer of Team Wizard Guide in combat prowess, intelligence or dexterity. But the sheer volume of abilities granted to the Wizards while Yoda's "magic" is limited to just telekinesis and mind tricks, certainly gives one team a clear advantage over the other.
My vote is clear. While I have been able to present some verifiable facts to support a victory for Team Wizards, the extent of the opposition as I understand it is:
They have light sabers and we can't say for sure if they are more dexterous than the Wizards but we're just assuming the light sabres can win on principle because they can cut through anything, even if we can't explain how Yoda and Kirby can close the gap to do so.
I do apologize but as a scholar of the occult and all things mystical, I cannot accept that logic in the face of the evidence in support of the Wizards.
Could Dumbledoor do magic without his wand/speaking/breathing or moving? which Yoda could do with force choke/pin and lift? Dumbeldoor is for almost all purposes HUMAN he had no defense against the intangable force that exists in all things slowly killing him... Now weather or not this would be in character for yoda would be a fair question, However if he uses nonleathal aproach only to the knockout I can see this working.
I cannot say for sure if he could use his magic if he were unable to breathe, but even if he could I do not believe the list of spells I quoted as him being able to use without a wand would be sufficient for a force choke break anyway.
That would probably have to come down to Gandalf using one of his blinding light incantations to break Yoda's focus. I think a write up of this situation would provide helpful insight as to how it would go down between Yoda and Albus disarming each other, Yoda starting a force choke, Gandalf trying to intercept while we see what Kirby tries to do to be apart of the action.
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Could Dumbledoor do magic without his wand/speaking/breathing or moving? which Yoda could do with force choke/pin and lift? Dumbeldoor is for almost all purposes HUMAN he had no defense against the intangable force that exists in all things slowly killing him... Now weather or not this would be in character for yoda would be a fair question, However if he uses nonleathal aproach only to the knockout I can see this working.
Woah, that's a gross miscarriage of Yoda's character there... We've never seen him use a Force Choke, nor do I believe he would EVER use a force choke, that is SO OUT OF CHARACTER...
I had to step in and say that part, Just because Yoda is popular don't assume for one second he would use the same underhanded tactics as say, Darth Vader...
And with that, I'm casting my vote for Team: Wizard Guide!
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we do see him use force to lift a star ship, useing that same level of force to paralise someone should be well within his capability. using paralization to keep people from harming each other is in my opinion very within yoda's personality.
we do see him use force to lift a star ship, useing that same level of force to paralise someone should be well within his capability. using paralization to keep people from harming each other is in my opinion very within yoda's personality.
You said force choke... You never said anything about that. And BTW, there's a reason yoda never used the force to paralyze anyone, it's because A: It takes great concentration to do something like that, and B: It likely isn't practical... All either of them would have to do is whisper a power word and boom, Yoda loses all concentration and gets blown backward...
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we do see him use force to lift a star ship, useing that same level of force to paralise someone should be well within his capability. using paralization to keep people from harming each other is in my opinion very within yoda's personality.
If Yoda can just force paralyze people why didnt he do that to Dooku? Or why didnt Obi-Wan do something like that to General Grevious? It's either completely out of character or not possible.
If Yoda can just force paralyze people why didnt he do that to Dooku? Or why didnt Obi-Wan do something like that to General Grevious? It's either completely out of character or not possible.
Or it doesn't work on opponents who are powerful Force Users? Obi-Wan's usage of the Force does give him a good advantage over Grievous in the third film, allowing him to incapacitate General Four Arms, if momentarily.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
We also see force push effectly disables both stormtroopers and droids. I would say natural force users likely have a resistance.
There is a big difference between force push and mythical force paralysis. I have never seen anything to suggest force push does not work against force users (their increased dexterity probably just makes it silly to try), so any idea that force users are "immune" to force powers is also nothing more than conjecture especially since we know that force lightning works against force users.
I think we need to be careful with the concepts of "the force" and "magic". If we say jedi have a natural resistance to the force, then why can't wizards? They are studied in almost the same way Jedi are, practicing their arts and honing them through concentration and mastery of the mind. Just because they practice "magic" instead of "the force" does not mean wizards should be extra vulnerable to the force. We would also run into the opposite, Jedi being extra vulnerable to magic.
I think it's better to classify them as supernatural powers and view them on a more even scale, giving neither the edge solely based on what school their power comes from. It should be the qualities of the user we look at (unless of course the case egregious, but that falls to a character being in the wrong power class). In this case, I believe the force, the magic of HP universe, and magic of Middle-Earth are all in a pretty good balance.
There is a big difference between force push and mythical force paralysis. I have never seen anything to suggest force push does not work against force users (their increased dexterity probably just makes it silly to try), so any idea that force users are "immune" to force powers is also nothing more than conjecture especially since we know that force lightning works against force users.
It's not just conjecture, it's absolute bunk. While no-one in the movies directly attempts it, that is probably more due to lack of forethought by lucas and/or it making multi-jedi fights incredibly onesided.
but in the extended universe material (which we're allowed to go to if the core source doesn't cover it), force push *absolutely* works on force users, as does force choke and similar. Yes, they can resist it by using sort of a 'counterpush' essentially, but only if they see it coming and/or are not distracted. But many is the dark jedi I have force pushed off a cliff into lava in jedi academy.
Also the notion of force paralysis is BS. If it existed, Yoda would have used it on palpatine. Or palpatine would have used it on...well endless people.
Force paralysis does not exist.
Magical paralysis, on the other hand, does. I don't see how Yoda wins once Kirby is turned to stone and his lightsaber is turned off or destroyed by magic.
Breakdown:
Belgareth - FS
Biefall - ???
narah - WG
draftguy2 - FS
TheEndIsNear - ???
KyleR - WG
Verbal - WG
PopeJP - ???
Ophidian_Eye - WG
Iso - WG
Warp778 - ???
Von - FS
Doctor Strange - WG
Fluffy_Bunny - WG
Stardust - WG
Lechuza - FS
Plaguefather - WG
Notes:
While this match is looking to be a blowout, the other three final matches are a lot closer. Bolas and Mewtwo are busy trying attain godhood to take down Dante and Bayonetta, while Hulk and Doomsday are trying to figure out how to harm Maleficent and Jafar (and vice versa). Also, BYPC and JFA are duking it out in a relatively ignored match somewhere else on the forum (Remember that your votes count! This will determine who fights who in the bonus matches of the TOC vs. TOU next week).
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
They realistically have a solution for just about anything that yoda or kirby could do to them.
With that final nail in the coffin, here it is...
Final Tally:
Poll votes:
FS - 17
WG - 27
Post votes:
FS - 4
WG - 10
Total votes:
FS - 21
WG - 37
Breakdown:
Belgareth - FS
Biefall - ???
narah - WG
draftguy2 - FS
TheEndIsNear - ???
KyleR - WG
Verbal - WG
PopeJP - ???
Ophidian_Eye - WG
Iso - WG
Warp778 - WG
Von - FS
Doctor Strange - WG
Fluffy_Bunny - WG
Stardust - WG
Lechuza - FS
Plaguefather - WG
Notes:
We have a winner! Congratulations to Albus Dumbledore and Gandalf the White for making it as the TOC’s 1st place, and to Kirby and Yoda for making it in 2nd. I’m sure they are eternally grateful to all their fans and supporters who helped them get this far, as am I. Thank you all for making the TOC awesome.
The next question is… can they take on their counterparts in the TOU? We shall see!
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I mean, I don't have any problems with just suspending my disbelief on what actually makes a light saber, but if we are going to go down the path of meddling with it in battle, deciding on this might be a good idea. Of course, it may also be a good idea to ignore the science/non-science of how a light saber works.
It's not just light..... I agree with Ophidian that a lightsaber is more of a plasma....
Heck I just checked Wookiepedia:
"The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape. The hilt was almost always self-fabricated by the wielder to match his or her specific needs, preferences and style. Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using. However, in the hands of an expert of the Force, the lightsaber was a weapon to be greatly respected and feared. To wield a lightsaber was to demonstrate incredible skill and confidence, as well as masterful dexterity and attunement to the Force."
I don't think these options are completely plausible during the beginning stages of the fight either. It comes down to swordsmanship between Yoda and Gandalf. I honestly couldn't compare the two. Both have extreme prowess in hand to hand combat and close range magics/force powers. I'm still going with Yoda is definitely the peer of team Wizard Guide.
I've went through the liberty of quoting you some facts that state that Dumbledore is capable of using select magics even without his wand. I don't think this is much of a stretch either.
It is not unreasonable to assume that Gandalf and Dumbledore could apparrate, teleport, or magically force push out of Kirby's suction range.
The only argument I've seen that is moderately silly is the "turning off the light sabre" spell. Mostly because that's not even necessary when you consider that Gandalf can simply break it with a simple power word or that Dumbledore could transfigure it into a twig.
Yoda is certainly the peer of Team Wizard Guide in combat prowess, intelligence or dexterity. But the sheer volume of abilities granted to the Wizards while Yoda's "magic" is limited to just telekinesis and mind tricks, certainly gives one team a clear advantage over the other.
My vote is clear. While I have been able to present some verifiable facts to support a victory for Team Wizards, the extent of the opposition as I understand it is:
They have light sabers and we can't say for sure if they are more dexterous than the Wizards but we're just assuming the light sabres can win on principle because they can cut through anything, even if we can't explain how Yoda and Kirby can close the gap to do so.
I do apologize but as a scholar of the occult and all things mystical, I cannot accept that logic in the face of the evidence in support of the Wizards.
Vote: Team Wizard Guide
-Myself.
That would probably have to come down to Gandalf using one of his blinding light incantations to break Yoda's focus. I think a write up of this situation would provide helpful insight as to how it would go down between Yoda and Albus disarming each other, Yoda starting a force choke, Gandalf trying to intercept while we see what Kirby tries to do to be apart of the action.
-Myself.
Woah, that's a gross miscarriage of Yoda's character there... We've never seen him use a Force Choke, nor do I believe he would EVER use a force choke, that is SO OUT OF CHARACTER...
I had to step in and say that part, Just because Yoda is popular don't assume for one second he would use the same underhanded tactics as say, Darth Vader...
And with that, I'm casting my vote for Team: Wizard Guide!
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
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You said force choke... You never said anything about that. And BTW, there's a reason yoda never used the force to paralyze anyone, it's because A: It takes great concentration to do something like that, and B: It likely isn't practical... All either of them would have to do is whisper a power word and boom, Yoda loses all concentration and gets blown backward...
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
Please Visit my Alterations Page!
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If Yoda can just force paralyze people why didnt he do that to Dooku? Or why didnt Obi-Wan do something like that to General Grevious? It's either completely out of character or not possible.
Or it doesn't work on opponents who are powerful Force Users? Obi-Wan's usage of the Force does give him a good advantage over Grievous in the third film, allowing him to incapacitate General Four Arms, if momentarily.
Just throwing that out there.
How well do you do against one?
There is a big difference between force push and mythical force paralysis. I have never seen anything to suggest force push does not work against force users (their increased dexterity probably just makes it silly to try), so any idea that force users are "immune" to force powers is also nothing more than conjecture especially since we know that force lightning works against force users.
I think it's better to classify them as supernatural powers and view them on a more even scale, giving neither the edge solely based on what school their power comes from. It should be the qualities of the user we look at (unless of course the case egregious, but that falls to a character being in the wrong power class). In this case, I believe the force, the magic of HP universe, and magic of Middle-Earth are all in a pretty good balance.
It's not just conjecture, it's absolute bunk. While no-one in the movies directly attempts it, that is probably more due to lack of forethought by lucas and/or it making multi-jedi fights incredibly onesided.
but in the extended universe material (which we're allowed to go to if the core source doesn't cover it), force push *absolutely* works on force users, as does force choke and similar. Yes, they can resist it by using sort of a 'counterpush' essentially, but only if they see it coming and/or are not distracted. But many is the dark jedi I have force pushed off a cliff into lava in jedi academy.
Also the notion of force paralysis is BS. If it existed, Yoda would have used it on palpatine. Or palpatine would have used it on...well endless people.
Force paralysis does not exist.
Magical paralysis, on the other hand, does. I don't see how Yoda wins once Kirby is turned to stone and his lightsaber is turned off or destroyed by magic.
FS - 17
WG - 25
Post votes:
FS - 4
WG - 9
Total votes:
FS - 21
WG - 34
Breakdown:
Belgareth - FS
Biefall - ???
narah - WG
draftguy2 - FS
TheEndIsNear - ???
KyleR - WG
Verbal - WG
PopeJP - ???
Ophidian_Eye - WG
Iso - WG
Warp778 - ???
Von - FS
Doctor Strange - WG
Fluffy_Bunny - WG
Stardust - WG
Lechuza - FS
Plaguefather - WG
Notes:
While this match is looking to be a blowout, the other three final matches are a lot closer. Bolas and Mewtwo are busy trying attain godhood to take down Dante and Bayonetta, while Hulk and Doomsday are trying to figure out how to harm Maleficent and Jafar (and vice versa). Also, BYPC and JFA are duking it out in a relatively ignored match somewhere else on the forum (Remember that your votes count! This will determine who fights who in the bonus matches of the TOC vs. TOU next week).
How well do you do against one?
They realistically have a solution for just about anything that yoda or kirby could do to them.
With that final nail in the coffin, here it is...
Final Tally:
Poll votes:
FS - 17
WG - 27
Post votes:
FS - 4
WG - 10
Total votes:
FS - 21
WG - 37
Breakdown:
Belgareth - FS
Biefall - ???
narah - WG
draftguy2 - FS
TheEndIsNear - ???
KyleR - WG
Verbal - WG
PopeJP - ???
Ophidian_Eye - WG
Iso - WG
Warp778 - WG
Von - FS
Doctor Strange - WG
Fluffy_Bunny - WG
Stardust - WG
Lechuza - FS
Plaguefather - WG
Notes:
We have a winner! Congratulations to Albus Dumbledore and Gandalf the White for making it as the TOC’s 1st place, and to Kirby and Yoda for making it in 2nd. I’m sure they are eternally grateful to all their fans and supporters who helped them get this far, as am I. Thank you all for making the TOC awesome.
The next question is… can they take on their counterparts in the TOU? We shall see!
How well do you do against one?