Think of this as Poring (pre-retcon) vs. the TOC thread, if it really needs to be a "versus" battle.
The way I see it, we have a few options:
1. DQ some teams - This was the most popular choice, with a few people, around seven if I counted correctly, posting to disqualify certain teams from further participation, which could be messy in execution for the whole tournament, being evenly divided among 32 teams.
2. Ban certain members from participating - Though I am a moderator of this tournament, I feel this shouldn't be within my power, since I'm not an MTGS moderator, but this option stands to contain people who can't control themselves when posting.
3. Reboot the tournament - Essentially the "Wrath of God" option, make a clean slate and restart the tournament with new teams (and thus another nomination process) and regulated power levels (or even single-genre ones: TV, Comic Books, Movies, Video Games in separate divisions, so that we don't mix and match media), with a more detailed and civilized set of rules.
4. Keep the tournament running - Not sure about this option, but I'm willing to push through if everyone else is.
If we go for option 3, I propose the following "tiers" (which I also posted in the other TOC thread)...
Power Levels
Back in the Comic Book forum I used to frequent, we divided all characters into tiers to fight each other:
Lightweight (LW) - Normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities (examples: Batman, Captain America).
Midweight (MW) - Greater than human ability, either mutant, monster or alien, and with minor superhuman powers (examples: Wolverine, Spider-Man).
Heavyweight (HW) - Very powerful, but few, superhuman abilities, or alternately, very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but not both (examples: Starfire, Human Torch).
Superheavyweight (SHW) - Very powerful, and very many, superhuman abilities (examples: Superman, Martian Manhunter).
Cosmic - Nigh-omnipotent, reality warping beings who govern the forces of the universe (examples: The Beyonder, The Phoenix Force).
Special Cases - Characters who could belong in a particular tier, but because of the nature of their powers are excluded from it and put into this one, because of a special niche power they possess which would be otherwise unstoppable (example: Professor Xavier; unless you have resistance to mind control, you're not getting past him). Essentially serves as a non-Cosmic tier ban list.
In those tournaments, the ruling was "No time to prepare, only what they normally have with them, sent to a random terrain" and grouped into tiers.
In my tournament, I only excluded the Cosmic tier, allowed any characters of SHW or lower to compete, but then gave them "30 minutes to prepare, access to all routine resources, sent to a random terrain afterwards" as a ruling so that they would all stand a chance to fight, even the LWs with nothing more than brains and resources as their "powers".
Since it's evident that the rulings for my tournament were not explicit enough, it may very well be that we drop the free-for-all prep time rule, and divide the matches into tiers, maybe making a 10 minute preptime, but no access to resources if we're going for a Tag Team.
I'd appreciate feedback regarding this. Until any actions are officially undertaken, kindly assume that the two matches this week, and the entire TOC, will be operating as normal unless otherwise stated.
I look forward to constructive feedback which the major stakeholders of the tournament can reach a consensus on.
EDIT 1: The most updated version of The Codex will be put here in the OP for reference.
Index
0. Preamble
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms a) Referee
Multiple Referees
b) Voters
c) Participants
Non-Participants
d) Borderline Cases
e) Tournament
Single Elimination
Round Robin
Seeding
f) Round
g) Match
h) Legal
i) Entity
Living Entity
Non-Living Entity
j) Victory
k) Defeat
l) Provision
II. Participant Nominations
1. Tiers a) Lightweight (LW)
b) Midweight (MW)
c) Heavyweight (HW)
d) Superheavyweight (SHW)
2. Source Materials a) Primary Sources
b) Secondary Sources
c) Tertiary Sources
3. Arguments a) Out Of Character Arguments
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources
c) Arguments Of Above Average Power
d) Arguments Of Non-Routine Access
e) Arguments Involving Minions
f) Arguments Involving Vehicles
g) Arguments Involving Non-Participants and Other Entities
h) Arguments of Terrain
i) Arguments of Knowledge and Understanding of Participants
III. Voting
1. Types of Voting Procedures a) Poll Voting
b) Post Voting
c) Dual Voting
IV. Terrains 1. Types of Terrains a) Neutral Terrain
b) Set Terrain
c) Random Terrain
d) Non-Random Terrain
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain
3. Non-Interference
4. Terrain Boundaries
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare (Prep Time) a) No Prep Time
b) Prep Time With No Access
c) Prep Time With Limited Access
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access
2. Information a) No Information
b) Limited Information
Public Unspecialized Knowledge
Private Specialized Knowledge
Both Private and Public Unspecialized and Specialized Knowledge
Other Information
c) Unlimited Information
VI. Victory Conditions
1. Victory by Death or Destruction
2. Victory by KO or Incapacitation
VII. Escape Articles and Clauses
1. Referee’s Discretion
2. Voter’s Discretion
3. Spirit of The Codex
_________________________________________________________________
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.2) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
Multiple Referees - If so chosen, multiple referees may be agreed upon to share responsibilities in the different duties of the tournament.
b) Voters - Members of the forum participating in the tournament by nominating, supporting or otherwise posting their opinions on any matches in the tournament, regardless of whether or not they vote using any of the methods outlined in Section III of The Codex.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
Non-Participants - This includes any entities which are not participants or fighters in the match, but which may be present in the battle by virtue of the terrain or being the minion of any participant.
d) Borderline Cases - Situations that may come up over the course of the tournament left up to the referee’s discretion to decide. These, like many situations that could come up in the tournament, need to be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be any format selected by the referee, including, but not limited to:
Single Elimination - A tournament in which participants victorious in one round move on to the next round, and participants defeated in one round are eliminated from the tournament.
Round Robin - A tournament in which multiple rounds are set up, leaving each participant or team of participants to fight against each other in at least one match, and the number of wins and losses are recorded.
Seeding - A tournament in which participants are grouped into seeds and then arranged to have matches with each other in a systematic manner.
f) Round - A set of versus matches in which participants may or may not be eliminated and move on to the next round, in the case of a single-elimination tournament and the like.
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
i) Entity - Any sentient or non-sentient, living or non-living being present in the match other than the participants themselves.
Living Entity - Any living being, be they beast, plant, humanoid persons and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants.
Non-Living Entity - Any non-living being, be they undead, elemental, technologically artificially intelligent and the like, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants.
j) Victory - A scenario in which participants manage to defeat their opponents and move to the next round.
k) Defeat - A scenario in which participants are not victorious against their opponents, and may not move to the next round.
l) Provisions - All articles, sections, clauses and points of The Codex may be referred to collectively or individually as provisions.
II. Participant Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the participant from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the participant in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the participant being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may not include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the participant uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Above Average Power - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Non-Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) Arguments Involving Minions - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any entities, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) Arguments Involving Vehicles - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a participant would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
g) Arguments Involving Non-Participants and Other Entities - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the presence of non-participants and other entities in the match should not adversely affect the match itself by presenting an independent danger to any participant. Entities present in the arena may, however, be used in arguments if a participant has the power to use these resources to their advantage.
h) Arguments of Terrain - See Article IV, Sections 2 and 3 of The Codex for more information.
i) Arguments of Knowledge and Understanding of Participants - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, should the participants be granted information about the participants as outlined in Article V, Section 2 of The Codex, it should be implied that just because a participant has sufficient knowledge over another by virtue of this information, it shouldn’t automatically mean that this character has the inherent understanding necessary to exploit this knowledge.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the thread by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, not a concrete place, but still imagined to be neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match, left up to the referee’s discretion to decide.
d) Non-Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches in the tournament can be in a non-random terrain, selected with prior knowledge by either the referee or the voters, ideally one which is as neutral as possible to both participants.
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that participant will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
3. Non-Interference - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which may include non-participants or other entities, it is assumed that any of these which could directly affect the match are removed from the arena before the match begins. Those who could not directly affect the match are permitted to stay in the arena for the duration of the match.
4. Terrain Boundaries - Unless otherwise stated, all terrains are magically sealed off to totally prevent any participant from escaping the match in any way, shape or form. The boundaries of each terrain are set at a distance several football fields apart from each other in width, reach a depth just before the plane’s core, and reach a height just before the exosphere. No participant should have any capabilities to send their opponents outside the terrain.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins. It may be any of the following choices:
Public Unspecialized Knowledge - This limited information includes only knowledge which is commonly known to the public in the participant’s home universe, including rumors, hearsay or urban legends, and the like, or
Private Specialized Knowledge - This limited information includes only specialized knowledge known commonly to the participant’s regular opponents, allies, or both in the participant’s home universe, or
Both Private and Public Unspecialized and Specialized Knowledge - In which both public unspecialized knowledge and private specialized knowledge are made known about the participant, in principle only excluding any information that are kept almost totally confidential by the participant, or
Other Information - Any other information that could be disclosed, left up to the referee’s discretion to decide.
c) Unlimited Information - All information on all opponents are instantly made available and made directly known to the participants before the match begins.
VI. Victory Conditions
1. Win Conditions - Every match must have a win condition, which may consist of one or all of the following:
a) Victory by Death or Destruction - Killing the opposing participant is always considered a victory. In cases of non-living entities, total destruction is also considered a victory. In team battles, only when all participants on a team are killed or destroyed are they removed from the arena.
b) Victory by KO or Incapacitation - In cases where it would be out of character for a participant to kill or destroy another due to high morality or other personal preferences, or when an opposing participant is rendered immortal or unkillable by virtue of their powers, a victory by KO may also be considered a victory. In cases of non-living entities, incapacitation is also considered a victory. A KO or incapacitation has to render the character either physically or mentally unconscious or physically or mentally immobile for a duration of at least ten minutes to be considered a victory. In team battles, only when all participants on a team are killed or destroyed, or knocked out incapacitated for a duration of ten minutes, are they removed from the arena.
2. Post-Victory Conditions - Some situations in team battles may also allow one participant to be defeated before the other, in which case, the following clauses may apply:
a) No Ontological Intertia - In team battles, if one participant is defeated, and that participant is removed from the arena, any items, magic, technology, and the like, which that participant brought into the arena or created during the match, shall immediately cease to exist for the remainder of the match.
VII. Escape Articles and Clauses
1. Referee’s Discretion - Should any of the provisions in The Codex prove insufficient to make a ruling, the referee’s discretion shall apply, and any rulings are final.
2. Voter’s Discretion - Should the referee so choose, the opinions of the voters may also be gathered to express opinions over rulings or provisions outlined in The Codex or created by the referee.
3. Spirit of The Codex - Any interpretations of rules in The Codex must be done in line with the spirit or reasoning behind why the rule was put in place in mind. In the event that provisions in The Codex are rendered unclear or ambiguous due to their wording or any grammatical oversight, the spirit behind the rules must be applied in all cases.
For the “Tournament of Champions” and the “Tournament of Underdogs”, all sections, articles, clauses and points of The Codex are implemented, except the following:
Section I, Article 1, Clause e, second point (Round Robin)
Section I, Article 1, Clause e, third point (Seeding)
Section IV, Article 1, Clause a (Neutral Terrain)
Section IV, Article 1, Clause b (Set Terrain)
Section IV, Article 1, Clause d (Non-Random Terrain)
Section V, Article 1, Clause a (No Prep Time)
Section V, Article 1, Clause b (Prep Time With No Access)
Section V, Article 1, Clause d (Prep Time With Unlimited Access)
Section V, Article 2, Clause a (No Information)
Section V, Article 2, Clause b (Limited Information)
Section VI, Article 2, Clause a (No Ontological Inertia)
All other provisions are in full effect.
EDIT 2: Upon Iso's request, here are all the original teams of the TOC, in the order they were nominated...
1. Team "Way of the Warrior" - Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kenshin Himura
2. Team "Cybernetic Cannon" - Mega Man X and Samus Aran
3. Team "Justice For All" - Gideon Jura and Captain America
4. Team "Godslayer" - Dante (Dante's Inferno) and Kratos
5. Team "Badass" - Jaime Lannister and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
6. Team "Basketballers" - Shaq and Barkley
7. Team "Viva la Revolution" - Amon and V
8. Team "By Your Powers Combined" - Captain Planet and Avatar Aang
9. Team "Electromagnetic Pulse" - Magneto and Static
10. Team "Smash" - Doomsday and Hulk
11. Team "Wizard Guide" - Gandalf the White and Albus Dumbledore
12. Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
13. Team "Mythology" - Wonder Woman and Thor
14. Team "Rescue the Princess" - Mario and Link
15. Team "Crazy Supernatural Killers" - Dante (Devil May Cry) and Bayonetta
16. Team "Human Mental Prowess" - Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor
17. Team "Dark Lords" - Emperor Palpatine and Lord Voldemort
18. Team "Chaotic Genius" - Abaddon, The Despoiler and Tezzeret, The Seeker
19. Team "Disney Villains" - Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent
20. Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
21. Team "Aimbot" - Legolas and Hawkeye
22. Team "The Vampire Slayers" - Buffy and Blade
23. Team "Metal Men" - Iron Man and Boba Fett
24. Team "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers!" - Batman and The Punisher
25. Team "Pest Control Problem" - Mighty Mouse and King Mickey Mouse (Kingdom Hearts)
26. Team "Fun Size" - Yoda and Kirby
27. Team "I'm Not A Hero" - Dr. McCay and Wolverine
28. Team "Speed" - The Flash (Wally West) and Sonic the Hedgehog
29. Team "Insane" - The Joker and The Green Goblin
30. Team "Assassins" - Ezio Auditore and Grey Fox
31. Team "Micro Mech" - Human Replicator Samantha Carter and Borg-Infested Captain Picard
32. Team "Suplex Machine" - Mike Haggar and King
EDIT 3: Here is a list of all known sources for the TOC and their current classification. Additional sources and suggestions are welcome!
1. Team "Way of the Warrior" - Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Kenshin Himura
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels, Samurai X and Rurouni Kenshin Anime Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
2. Team "Cybernetic Cannon" - Mega Man X and Samus Aran
Primary Sources: Megaman X and Metroid Video Games
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
3. Team "Justice For All" - Gideon Jura and Captain America
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels and the MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
4. Team "Godslayer" - Dante (Dante's Inferno) and Kratos
Primary Sources: Dante's Inferno and God of War Video Games
Secondary Sources: Dante's Divine Comedy, Greek Mythology
Tertiary Sources: ???
5. Team "Badass" - Jaime Lannister and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
Primary Sources: Song of Fire and Ice and Game of Thrones, Dune Novels and Movies
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
6. Team "Basketballers" - Shaq and Barkley
Primary Sources: Shaq Fu and Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden
Secondary Sources: Real Life
Tertiary Sources: ???
7. Team "Viva la Revolution" - Amon and V
Primary Sources: Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series, V for Vendetta Comic Book and Movie
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
8. Team "By Your Powers Combined" - Captain Planet and Avatar Aang
Primary Sources: Captain Planet and the Planeteers, Avatar: The Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
9. Team "Electromagnetic Pulse" - Magneto and Static
Primary Sources: MCU, DCAU, Static Shock
Secondary Sources: Heroclix, Young Justice
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books, Marvel vs. Capcom
10. Team "Smash" - Doomsday and Hulk
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
11. Team "Wizard Guide" - Gandalf the White and Albus Dumbledore
Primary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Movies and Books
Secondary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Video Games
Tertiary Sources: ???
12. Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
Primary Sources: Final Fantasy Video Games and Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
13. Team "Mythology" - Wonder Woman and Thor
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
14. Team "Rescue the Princess" - Mario and Link
Primary Sources: Super Mario Bros. and Legend of Zelda Video Game Series, The Hyrule Historia
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
15. Team "Crazy Supernatural Killers" - Dante (Devil May Cry) and Bayonetta
Primary Sources: Devil May Cry and Bayonetta Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Devil May Cry Manga and Anime Series
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
16. Team "Human Mental Prowess" - Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor
Primary Sources: Fantastic Four Television Series and DCAU
Secondary Sources: MCU (only because Dr. Doom in the comics is nothing like in the F4 movies), Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
17. Team "Dark Lords" - Emperor Palpatine and Lord Voldemort
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movie Series and Harry Potter Books and Movies
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
18. Team "Chaotic Genius" - Abaddon, The Despoiler and Tezzeret, The Seeker
Primary Sources: Warhammer 40k Tabletop Game, MTG
Secondary Sources: Warhammer 40k Lore
Tertiary Sources: ???
19. Team "Disney Villains" - Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent
Primary Sources: Aladdin and Sleeping Beauty Disney Animated Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: Traditional Fairy Tales
20. Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
Primary Sources: MTG and the Pokémon TV Series and Movies
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Pokémon Video Games and TCG
Tertiary Sources: ???
21. Team "Aimbot" - Legolas and Hawkeye
Primary Sources: LOTR Books and Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: LOTR Video Games, Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
22. Team "The Vampire Slayers" - Buffy and Blade
Primary Sources: Buffy The Vampire Slayer TV Series, MCU
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Vampire Folklore
23. Team "Metal Men" - Iron Man and Boba Fett
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
24. Team "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers!" - Batman and The Punisher
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
25. Team "Pest Control Problem" - Mighty Mouse and King Mickey Mouse (Kingdom Hearts)
Primary Sources: Mighty Mouse Cartoon Series, Kingdom Hearts Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Disney Animated Canon
26. Team "Fun Size" - Yoda and Kirby
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, Kirby Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Star Wars Books and EU, Kirby of the Stars/Kirby: Right Back At Ya! (Hoshi no Kaabii; Kirby Anime)
Tertiary Sources: ???
27. Team "I'm Not A Hero" - Dr. McCay and Wolverine
Primary Sources: Star Gate TV Series and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
28. Team "Speed" - The Flash (Wally West) and Sonic the Hedgehog
Primary Sources: DCAU and Sonic Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Teen Titans, Young Justice, Heroclix, Sonic the Hedgehog TV Series and Anime
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
29. Team "Insane" - The Joker and The Green Goblin
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: The Dark Knight Movie, Spider Man Animated Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
30. Team "Assassins" - Ezio Auditore and Grey Fox
Primary Sources: Assassin's Creed and Metal Gear Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: European History
31. Team "Micro Mech" - Human Replicator Samantha Carter and Borg-Infested Captain Picard
Primary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate TV Series
Secondary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate Novels
Tertiary Sources: ???
32. Team "Suplex Machine" - Mike Haggar and King
Primary Sources: Final Fight and the Tekken Series
Secondary Sources: Professional Wrestling
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom 3
33. Team "Neo-Badass" - Komato Assassin Asha and Hiei/Vincent
Primary Sources: Iji and Yu Yu Hakusho/Ghost Fighter
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
Human Torch should be SHW btw. He can create a supernova.
Of course, tier discussions are open to being talked about. We have to draw the line using some sort of qualifier, including "upper tier" and "lower tier" examples to even the power levels considerably.
EDIT: Double checked your claim on SHW level... uhm, actually, Human Torch is borderline MW to HW depending on the metagame. Spider-Man, who is a solid MW (want to argue him being HW?), beats him in this thread (40 to 23 in terms of votes... all post votes at that; none of the comic book forum matches I witnessed had polls in them, with the "dual voting system" being a personal invention), with no time to prepare, on a terrain with water in it. Yes, they were put in the same bracket in that one, and quite a few fans were aware of Torch's ability to go Nova, but that didn't bump up his power level.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
A quick skim of the posts basically tell me that Spiderman won because it was Spiderman and Torch won't supernova him because they're buddies.
Also Spiderman's more popular.
That's true, and it was a major factor in the battle, but the point still stands that they were put in the same bracket, which means they have comparable power levels, and if Spider-Man is a MW, then that's still two brackets lower than SHW, or even if Spider-Man is a borderline HW, that's still one bracket lower than SHW for both of them.
Besides, looking up his Wikipedia article, Torch's powers include flight, immunity to burns, and control over fire. That's powerful, sure, and I bet he's great at what he does if he can go Nova to obliterate opponents, but the difference between a HW and a SHW is the variety of powers available to them. Compare Superman's multitude of powers and how good he is at using them (the mark of a character who is definitely SHW) to Torch's rather specialist control over pyrokinesis (strong, but specialized and with no great variety of powers) and you'll see what I mean when it comes to the tiers.
As for popularity, not much we can do about that. Anything involving votes could be seen a popularity contest when it boils down to it, but that's part of the whole deal of trying to run this, so...
EDIT: Of course, could you mean that Superman should be bumped up to Cosmic, and Torch to SHW? Because that would make sense if you did, since I don't think they belong in the same tier.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
I really don't care either way. Just saying, when it time for Torch vs random HW. "He wins because he can just fly around, charge up, nova them and kill them instantly." , is going to be part of the arguments.
I really don't care either way. Just saying, when it time for Torch vs random HW. "He wins because he can just fly around, charge up, nova them and kill them instantly." , is going to be part of the arguments.
Ah. Thanks for clarifying that! So you think that they should be grouped according to what they could do with their powers rather than what they would actually do with them...
I see your point, given the fact that nearly every match involving comic book characters tends to devolve down that route, throwing characterization out the window and finding the most efficient and amped up way to kill opponents, no matter the cost.
But then, does making weight classes even help if that's going to be the attitude of people who argue that way? I'm beginning to think it's possible to make those kinds of arguments regardless of whether it's a comic book character or otherwise, having read a few threads on this forum. All it takes is one person who will pull out a similar point of view no matter how out of character (OOC) it is.
I think this is a crucial point that needs to be discussed for the sake of all future matches. Other opinions on this matter would be great as well. Please speak your mind.
I participate yearly in a survival challenge in which I am dropped off in the wilderness with 1 days rations, a knife, and no other supplies, and have to find my way home. This is typically several weeks hiking from civilization.
I have personally killed several bears in the course of this challenge, with the use of snares and other traps.
The Tournament should keep going until we finish it. I would add a "No Outlier" general rule in order to balance keeping the tournament interesting while attempting to keep it from growing dull.
For the second one we can add rules. Citing exactly which version of a character we want to use is probably necessary.
I would like to impose the general rule of "No Outliers."
Example: Superman
Normal - Flies around, super strength, shoots lasers from his eyes
Outlier - (Superman Prime) Cosmic awareness, Reality Changing, Infinite Strength, Can will himself back into reality
Exampe: Thor
Normal - Has a hammer, super strength, hits people with hammer, flies around, shoots lightning
Outlier - (Rune King Thor) Cosmic Awareness, Omnipotent... / (Random Crazy stuff) Whirl Mjolner to make a rift in reality...
Example: Wonderwoman
Normal - Flies, Super strength, Fast, Lasso of Truth...
Outlier - Picks up the world
and so on...
We can hit the heart of the characters. I don't think we need to do anything other than not use the extremes as the examples. These characters mentioned are not defined by their super-absurd feats. They have a general persona that we can use.
I oppose any sweeping rule changes for this tournament. The only change I would like to add would be a general ban on outliers. Even then I think a hard ban on extremes in powers is a bad idea. Mentioning the extremes in powers and perhaps formally declaring them as a "feat" or something might help balance unduly powerful examples while keeping discussion from devolving.
The problem we have with the tournament is the write ups for the teams. The write ups are all to vague to be used for a tournament like this. The write up should specify which character it is or at least which time period in the comics they are from. Nobody could have seen this coming until it was looking at us in the face.
That would put power limitations as we could say they are from this story arch through this story arch so they can't do that. I'm 100% sure that during the nominations if that was in place and Thor was brought up then we would not have a situation where he is overpowered as you (Poring) would have said no Rune King Thor is to powerful for this and made them change it. However we have characters from comic books who have 50 different authors who all want to change the character in their own way. Then we have characters from video games and other outlets of entertainment who only have 1 form and so there limitations are set in stone.
I would also like to suggest getting rid of poll voting and only using the votes that have a valid argument behind them in an attempt to fix popularity contests as well as votes that just have "Takes on the other team single handedly" Your vote should only count if it has a valid argument behind it. Voting is a privilege and if you can't control yourself and make a valid argument that privilege should be taken away from you. If you vote for a team and somebody else thinks of a way your argument is flawed you can still have your vote count for whichever team you want as long as you clearly gave it a good shot.
So my suggestion would be if we restart the tournament to have the write ups be more specific or if we continue fix the write ups that we are using, and to change the voting style.
For each nominated team, open a thread. In that thread put a poll to decide if the team should be in the tournament (Just "Yes" or "No" options). In that very same thread will be a discussion about the team members' power level, abilities to use in the tournament, posts and posts of information on them, material to be considered (comics, video games, movies, TV...). But it's a reaaaally long process.
Also, I suggest to reduce the tournament to only 16 teams: to comply with the 32 number, we squeezed some teams that should not be there.
At, for last suggestion, I think we should pick up ONE CHARACTER as standard. Every other suggestion will be measured against that character and if deemed too powerful or too weak, not accepted in the tournament.
As you can see, I vote up to restart the tournament.
Note: I second Belgareth's suggestion about "ignoring" empty votes and possible "banning" troublemaker posters.
The only reason I started out that way in Both CG threads is because everyone IMMEDIATELY went for "Oh, they just One shot abaddon!" Without even really looking at his information... They were all meta-voting and not looking at what Abaddon's done, including, ya know, the Building falling on him only pissing him off, saying the lasso of truth would actually work on him...etc...
I felt the burden of defending Abaddon was my job... Seriously, it looked like no one else here has even picked up a Codex or played 40K for even a minute.
And then, they started in on Tezzeret, I mean, Really? His Craftyness is borderline Jack Sparrow-levels... He can manage to pull himself out of even the most sticky of situations (unless it gets personal... Then he really doesn't care about leaving, only his pride.)
IT was mentioned that to transmute metal, he has to touch it. I mentioned that the entire furnace layer was Metal, and he'd been on Mirrodin/New Phyrexia since that story arch, so he'd perfectly know his way around the plane and how to take advantage of it.
And then there were like, 20 posts with this one line
"Vote M"
"Vote WW"
"Vote Thor"
...no reason, just saying that. Meta-voting...
So yeah, I felt it necessary to fight the metavoting, it even started in the HMP v FFV thread...
Vote Doom
Vote HMP
...No reason, just Metavoting.
I vote to restart, with balanced teams, not with characters that are ALL of their versions in one...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[W]FREE STONEFORGE MYSTIC and JACE THE MINDSCULPTOR[/W]
The only reason I started out that way in Both CG threads is because everyone IMMEDIATELY went for "Oh, they just One shot abaddon!" Without even really looking at his information... They were all meta-voting and not looking at what Abaddon's done, including, ya know, the Building falling on him only pissing him off, saying the lasso of truth would actually work on him...etc...
I felt the burden of defending Abaddon was my job... Seriously, it looked like no one else here has even picked up a Codex or played 40K for even a minute.
And then, they started in on Tezzeret, I mean, Really? His Craftyness is borderline Jack Sparrow-levels... He can manage to pull himself out of even the most sticky of situations (unless it gets personal... Then he really doesn't care about leaving, only his pride.)
IT was mentioned that to transmute metal, he has to touch it. I mentioned that the entire furnace layer was Metal, and he'd been on Mirrodin/New Phyrexia since that story arch, so he'd perfectly know his way around the plane and how to take advantage of it.
And then there were like, 20 posts with this one line
"Vote M"
"Vote WW"
"Vote Thor"
...no reason, just saying that. Meta-voting...
So yeah, I felt it necessary to fight the metavoting, it even started in the HMP v FFV thread...
Vote Doom
Vote HMP
...No reason, just Metavoting.
I vote to restart, with balanced teams, not with characters that are ALL of their versions in one...
Plaguefather, I think the main problem with you is your attitude... I just read a post from you that says we should "thank you" for not nominating other X character. It's the second time you say that and is really arrogant.
Additional to that is that you come up with your ideas and, although is fair that you tell us your opinion, you always present them as facts, very arrogantly, commonly with childish mockery on the other participants.
You took the battles of Team Chaotic Genius as your personal battles. And I'm not the only one that thinks that way.
Don't restart the tournament. This can be salvaged. We're more than halfway done and every thread has been fun until the latest. Even though some fights will be onesided, that's fine. We've learned a lot already about how to run one of these, but let's just finish it off. Maybe we'll learn some more.
So how to salvage? Catmurderer nailed it. Make an official decree that if a character has done something once or twice, it's not allowed here. If someone got hit by a nuke once and survived - fine, that's evidence of their toughness. If someone destroyed the Earth once, let's just assume there're not going to do that again.
Additionally, Poring, you've shown yourself to be a level-headed debater and I think you have in mind the best direction this tournament can take. I fully support you acting as a mod in this case and just laying down the laws. If you go too far, we'll call you on it, but stepping in with some bold orange text to keep things in line is 100% okay by me. Talk to the WCT mods about how far they'd be comfortable with you going, but I feel confident saying you've got the people's support on this one.
Stardust, that still doesn't solve the issue with that abyssmal power difference between some teams. Team Suplex or Team Aimbot have nothing to against Team Chaotic Genius or Team Mythology, even if we use the "normal" version ignoring the "outlier" verison.
Even if the fight is a landslide, that doesn't make it not fun. What ruins the fun is people claiming one-shots when they have no business doing so. Too many people are looking at one angle and clinging to it, not even considering how the other team might go about trying to win. As long as we give every team due consideration even an unfair fight can be "fair" if you get my meaning.
Even if the fight is a landslide, that doesn't make it not fun. What ruins the fun is people claiming one-shots when they have no business doing so. Too many people are looking at one angle and clinging to it, not even considering how the other team might go about trying to win. As long as we give every team due consideration even an unfair fight can be "fair" if you get my meaning.
Exactly this. This is the issue I had that started in the Doomsday&Hulk Versus Iron Man & Boba Fett thread. The only Character anyone was focused on was Doomsday and whether or not he could be killed at all. It made the discussion very narrow and ended up coming down to a combo of people just not wanting Doomsday to win and me finding a Disintegrator weapon that Boba Fett uses to convince people that Boba Fett could use it to disintegrate Doomsday's head... It didnt even get into whether or not it was likely that the team could pull it off it was just "nuh uh that doesnt work! super immunity and regen!"
Exactly this. This is the issue I had that started in the Doomsday&Hulk Versus Iron Man & Boba Fett thread. The only Character anyone was focused on was Doomsday and whether or not he could be killed at all. It made the discussion very narrow and ended up coming down to a combo of people just not wanting Doomsday to win and me finding a Disintegrator weapon that Boba Fett uses to convince people that Boba Fett could use it to disintegrate Doomsday's head... It didnt even get into whether or not it was likely that the team could pull it off it was just "nuh uh that doesnt work! super immunity and regen!"
Would you say Doomsday is overpowered? To my knowledge he has not really changed to much in all his story arches he has always been a super crazy killing machine. Just wondering...
Would you say Doomsday is overpowered? To my knowledge he has not really changed to much in all his story arches he has always been a super crazy killing machine. Just wondering...
I think it depends on how you look at him. At one time Superman killed him by punching him in the face... but then he became immune to Superman punches. I think if you go with a baseline Doomsday from when he first appeared he'd be ok, it seems to me that after all of his story arcs though he now has the ability to survive being shot into the sun and other nonsense. There were people arguing that even if Doomsday's head was disintegrated he'd regenerate so fast that it wouldnt count as a KO... That's just insane to me. Then add on an apparent immunity to every single pathogen, radiation, energy weapon... Things need to be kill-able/KO-able outside of plot devices. If it can be agreed that it's a kill-able form of Doomsday (like he isnt immune to pathogens and radiation from universe outside his own) then it would be fine.
For whatever its worth, I suggest finishing what you started. Don't allow some people to partake if you deem it nessessary, some other stuff, with each team write up give us a link to the wiki so we can all quickly read up general stats for both teams, give teams a better write up.
In a tournament where Superman is the bar, having the thing that killed Superman is a bad idea.
The problem with superman is he is either basically God or he's worthless (kryptonite). You could easily let Superman into a tournament like this if you give everyone Kryptonite... but then why have him there?
Also: I think Draftguy2's point on the write ups is a good one. A lot if not all of the write-up seemed to focus on flavor... it would have been more helpful if they focused on power. Then it would have been obvious that team Badass had no chance at all and possibly (depending on nominator) that team Doomsday was being viewed in an OP way. It also would have put that power definition at the beginning of the Match thread so people knew which version of the character was being talked about which is very important for comic characters and can even be for others like Palpatine (is he the movie version or the cloned one from the books later).
Edit:
It could also help if we have some of the powers laid out so if a character has 1 really stupid OP power (like summoning) it can be agreed at that point that they dont have access to it.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Id like for you to keep the tournament going till the finish. At worst worst worst case senario, it just tells you of other problems with the tournament.
Id like to bring up one ing that plague father said.
"DQ all marvel/DC" characters. I actually see a benefit to this.
Marvel and dc are two universes that have been stagnant. Thryve existed for a really long time and the characters there are old. Over the years tons of stuff has been written and lots of it doesnt make sense. Id say as soon as FTL is involved that person should be DQ. The is no way around it. Either you allow it due to magic, and the person wins virtually any fight except against others like it. Or you disallow it and their supporters feel cheated. The problem with faster than light is that its a really big number. Its like billions or quadrillions. If i wanted to make someone interesting, ive got to use the biggest number i know. It seem a lot of characters seem to focus around 3 speeds depending on the "group". Super human speed (40k for example). Speed of sound( cant think of any) and speed of light (DQ, Marvel). Anything involving the speed of light obviously has no justification other than the writters took the fastest they could find. Normally, there should be a progression with either the same number at each level, or more at the bottom and less on top. Dc and marvel are just like superhuman like spiderman batman and then boom lightspeed on anyone a league above. Anyone can see thats just through bad writting. Same thing with the strength thing. Their levels are inflated to ridiculous (not just exagerated, but impossible due to the laws of physics).
Id say you cant exceed real universe physics. Either nerf everyone to no ftl and stuff or dq anyone above that point.
This is why I said the write ups should also state which story arch/timeline they are nominating. This tells us which powers they have, how powerful they are, and the personality traits they are using. As well as putting any limits on the arguments of "Well he did this so he can do that"
Id like for you to keep the tournament going till the finish. At worst worst worst case senario, it just tells you of other problems with the tournament.
Id like to bring up one ing that plague father said.
"DQ all marvel/DC" characters. I actually see a benefit to this.
Marvel and dc are two universes that have been stagnant. Thryve existed for a really long time and the characters there are old. Over the years tons of stuff has been written and lots of it doesnt make sense. Id say as soon as FTL is involved that person should be DQ. The is no way around it. Either you allow it due to magic, and the person wins virtually any fight except against others like it. Or you disallow it and their supporters feel cheated. The problem with faster than light is that its a really big number. Its like billions or quadrillions. If i wanted to make someone interesting, ive got to use the biggest number i know. It seem a lot of characters seem to focus around 3 speeds depending on the "group". Super human speed (40k for example). Speed of sound( cant think of any) and speed of light (DQ, Marvel). Anything involving the speed of light obviously has no justification other than the writters took the fastest they could find. Normally, there should be a progression with either the same number at each level, or more at the bottom and less on top. Dc and marvel are just like superhuman like spiderman batman and then boom lightspeed on anyone a league above. Anyone can see thats just through bad writting. Same thing with the strength thing. Their levels are inflated to ridiculous (not just exagerated, but impossible due to the laws of physics).
Id say you cant exceed real universe physics. Either nerf everyone to no ftl and stuff or dq anyone above that point.
I don't think I completely agree with this. That would only put people like Batman and Punisher on the playing field, would it not? @ exceeding physics
It also doesn't take into account that people have things like magic, different types of energy, etc.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
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Think of this as Poring (pre-retcon) vs. the TOC thread, if it really needs to be a "versus" battle.
The way I see it, we have a few options:
1. DQ some teams - This was the most popular choice, with a few people, around seven if I counted correctly, posting to disqualify certain teams from further participation, which could be messy in execution for the whole tournament, being evenly divided among 32 teams.
2. Ban certain members from participating - Though I am a moderator of this tournament, I feel this shouldn't be within my power, since I'm not an MTGS moderator, but this option stands to contain people who can't control themselves when posting.
3. Reboot the tournament - Essentially the "Wrath of God" option, make a clean slate and restart the tournament with new teams (and thus another nomination process) and regulated power levels (or even single-genre ones: TV, Comic Books, Movies, Video Games in separate divisions, so that we don't mix and match media), with a more detailed and civilized set of rules.
4. Keep the tournament running - Not sure about this option, but I'm willing to push through if everyone else is.
If we go for option 3, I propose the following "tiers" (which I also posted in the other TOC thread)...
Power Levels
Back in the Comic Book forum I used to frequent, we divided all characters into tiers to fight each other:
Lightweight (LW) - Normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities (examples: Batman, Captain America).
Midweight (MW) - Greater than human ability, either mutant, monster or alien, and with minor superhuman powers (examples: Wolverine, Spider-Man).
Heavyweight (HW) - Very powerful, but few, superhuman abilities, or alternately, very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but not both (examples: Starfire, Human Torch).
Superheavyweight (SHW) - Very powerful, and very many, superhuman abilities (examples: Superman, Martian Manhunter).
Cosmic - Nigh-omnipotent, reality warping beings who govern the forces of the universe (examples: The Beyonder, The Phoenix Force).
Special Cases - Characters who could belong in a particular tier, but because of the nature of their powers are excluded from it and put into this one, because of a special niche power they possess which would be otherwise unstoppable (example: Professor Xavier; unless you have resistance to mind control, you're not getting past him). Essentially serves as a non-Cosmic tier ban list.
In those tournaments, the ruling was "No time to prepare, only what they normally have with them, sent to a random terrain" and grouped into tiers.
In my tournament, I only excluded the Cosmic tier, allowed any characters of SHW or lower to compete, but then gave them "30 minutes to prepare, access to all routine resources, sent to a random terrain afterwards" as a ruling so that they would all stand a chance to fight, even the LWs with nothing more than brains and resources as their "powers".
Since it's evident that the rulings for my tournament were not explicit enough, it may very well be that we drop the free-for-all prep time rule, and divide the matches into tiers, maybe making a 10 minute preptime, but no access to resources if we're going for a Tag Team.
I'd appreciate feedback regarding this. Until any actions are officially undertaken, kindly assume that the two matches this week, and the entire TOC, will be operating as normal unless otherwise stated.
I look forward to constructive feedback which the major stakeholders of the tournament can reach a consensus on.
EDIT 1: The most updated version of The Codex will be put here in the OP for reference.
Index
0. Preamble
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms
a) Referee
c) Participants
e) Tournament
g) Match
h) Legal
i) Entity
k) Defeat
l) Provision
II. Participant Nominations
1. Tiers
a) Lightweight (LW)
b) Midweight (MW)
c) Heavyweight (HW)
d) Superheavyweight (SHW)
2. Source Materials
a) Primary Sources
b) Secondary Sources
c) Tertiary Sources
3. Arguments
a) Out Of Character Arguments
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources
c) Arguments Of Above Average Power
d) Arguments Of Non-Routine Access
e) Arguments Involving Minions
f) Arguments Involving Vehicles
g) Arguments Involving Non-Participants and Other Entities
h) Arguments of Terrain
i) Arguments of Knowledge and Understanding of Participants
III. Voting
1. Types of Voting Procedures
a) Poll Voting
b) Post Voting
c) Dual Voting
IV. Terrains
1. Types of Terrains
a) Neutral Terrain
b) Set Terrain
c) Random Terrain
d) Non-Random Terrain
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain
3. Non-Interference
4. Terrain Boundaries
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare (Prep Time)
a) No Prep Time
b) Prep Time With No Access
c) Prep Time With Limited Access
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access
2. Information
a) No Information
b) Limited Information
VI. Victory Conditions
1. Victory by Death or Destruction
2. Victory by KO or Incapacitation
VII. Escape Articles and Clauses
1. Referee’s Discretion
2. Voter’s Discretion
3. Spirit of The Codex
_________________________________________________________________
0. Preamble
Poring’s Codex (version 1.2) was created to provide a list of potential rules which may or may not be implemented in any tournaments or competitions happening in online forums, such as The Versus Forum of Magic the Gathering Salvation Forums. It is built on the ideals of fair play, free will and fun, and, above all things, must work to promote those three ideals.
I. Terminologies
1. Definitions of Terms - For the remainder of Poring’s Codex (known henceforth simply as “The Codex”), the following terminologies will be used consistently throughout to prevent ambiguous situations or confusion in interpreting the rules contained in the following sections.
a) Referee - The person organizing the tournament and thus responsible for laying down the ground rules chosen in The Codex, posting the matches, keeping track of the votes, pointing out invalid arguments or otherwise acting as arbiter during the tournament, enforcing the ideals outlined in the Preamble, or performing any further duties, whenever necessary.
c) Participants - The fighters for the match, be they singular participants or teams of participants of any sort, fictional or nonfictional, or from any medium or any genre that can be imagined.
e) Tournament - The entire event, consisting of several matches or rounds, up to the discretion and size of the referee. Tournaments may be any format selected by the referee, including, but not limited to:
g) Match - A single instance of any versus battle which makes up the tournament.
h) Legal - Anything declared as allowed by the referee shall be known as legal for a match, and may be legal for the whole tournament as well.
i) Entity - Any sentient or non-sentient, living or non-living being present in the match other than the participants themselves.
k) Defeat - A scenario in which participants are not victorious against their opponents, and may not move to the next round.
l) Provisions - All articles, sections, clauses and points of The Codex may be referred to collectively or individually as provisions.
II. Participant Nominations
1. Tiers - During the nomination process, participants may be divided into tiers, which may or may not consist of any of the following:
a) Lightweight (LW) - Any participant whose power level is that of a normal human with great training or slight genetic modification, but absolutely no superhuman abilities.
b) Midweight (MW) - Any participant with whose power level is greater than normal human ability, is either a mutant, metahuman, monster, alien, beast, and the like, and with a minor superhuman power or minor superhuman powers.
c) Heavyweight (HW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful, but either only with a few, but very powerful, superhuman abilities, or alternately, has very many, but not very powerful, superhuman abilities, but never both.
d) Superheavyweight (SHW) - Any participant whose power level is very superhumanly powerful and has both many superhuman abilities, many of which are very powerful.
e) Cosmic - Any participant whose power level is characterized by being that of a reality warper, godlike being, an abstract concept, or a force of the universe.
f) Special Cases - Any participant who possesses any powers that, while overall may be legal for any of the previous tiers, would be unfair for the other contestants if allowed to participate, for one reason or the other.
2. Source Materials - Sources are important in determining tiers and power levels of participants, as well as developing arguments for and against them in matches of the tournament. Normally, write ups in the opening post should make clear which sources specify the power levels of any participants, and should list down sources to be used to argue for or against them. These sources must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As such, sources will be classified as such:
a) Primary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants should be specifically nominated from a certain medium. This will serve as the primary source material which the voters should use to support the participants and argue for and against them during all matches.
b) Secondary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, secondary sources may be used sparingly as reference in order to clarify certain arguments or scenarios where the primary sources are insufficient, so long as these sources do not exaggerate the power level of the participant, or force the participant to act drastically out of character. Secondary sources include any media in which the participant from the primary sources appears in, but which may not be equivalent to the primary source, including movies, television series, video games, trading card games, tabletop games, and the like.
c) Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of tertiary sources is highly discouraged. Tertiary sources include materials which feature different versions of the participant in the primary and secondary source material that may or may not radically change the power levels or personalities of the participant being cited, and thus give an inaccurate picture as to the capabilities of the participant. This may include versions of the participant from entirely other universes or alternate realities existing in the same media, fan-made work produced independently from the source material, and any media produced by a company other than the company that produced the source material.
3. Arguments - Arguments are a crucial aspect in every match, however, certain care must be taken regarding certain kinds of them. This may or may not include the following:
a) Out Of Character Arguments - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants are to act as consistently in character as possible for their respective matches. The usage of an out of character argument, in which the participant uses a power or ability they would not use under normal conditions, can only be justified if, and only if, there is substantial evidence due to the circumstances of the match and portrayal in many primary and secondary sources to indicate that the participant will do something which would be otherwise considered out of character.
b) Arguments Using Secondary Or Tertiary Sources - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the usage of secondary and tertiary sources, as outlined in Section II, Article 2, Clauses b and c, will be limited in favor of primary source material.
c) Arguments Of Above Average Power - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants are at their average power levels, which means that exceptional outlier evidences of exceptional victories or crushing losses, while they may be valid, should not be used as the sole basis to determine power which is routinely displayed in legal source material.
d) Arguments Of Non-Routine Access - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, all voters must assume that all participants, in the event that they are given access to resources, technology, magic and weapons, similar to that outlined in Section V, Article 1, Clause b, can only use what they would routinely have access to in legal source material, and therefore do not have access to items or abilities they would not have had long enough possession of in order to claim routine access.
e) Arguments Involving Minions - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches alone or with the aid of partner participants, and may not bring into the arena, through summoning, building or any similar means, any entities, that can act, operate or think semi-independently from the participants from their home universes. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which the terrain itself is used to create a minion or minions using magic, technology or other means, and only after the match begins, in which case it becomes the referee’s call to allow these minions or not.
f) Arguments Involving Vehicles - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, participants must fight their matches without access to vehicles with any sort of weaponry or transportational capabilities. The only exception to this would be cases in which a participant would normally fight using a vehicle in media where this is prevalent.
g) Arguments Involving Non-Participants and Other Entities - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the presence of non-participants and other entities in the match should not adversely affect the match itself by presenting an independent danger to any participant. Entities present in the arena may, however, be used in arguments if a participant has the power to use these resources to their advantage.
h) Arguments of Terrain - See Article IV, Sections 2 and 3 of The Codex for more information.
i) Arguments of Knowledge and Understanding of Participants - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, should the participants be granted information about the participants as outlined in Article V, Section 2 of The Codex, it should be implied that just because a participant has sufficient knowledge over another by virtue of this information, it shouldn’t automatically mean that this character has the inherent understanding necessary to exploit this knowledge.
III. Voting
1. Selecting voting procedures - In selecting voting procedures, referees are given a few options.
a) Poll Voting - Voting is done exclusively by a poll, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Poll voting is done by setting up a poll in which members may cast votes, whether publicly or anonymously, in a manner which can be visibly counted by everyone at a moment’s notice. Whichever participant or participants gather the most poll votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
b) Post Voting - Voting is done exclusively by posting opinions, set during a period predetermined by the referee. Post voting is done when voters post in the thread by making their opinion of whichever participant they feel would win the match clearly known by posting a phrase similar to “I vote for X because Y”, in which X is the participant, or are the participants, and Y is the justification behind the vote, which has to be at least one complete phrase. Whichever participant or participants gather the most post votes wins the match. In the event of a tie, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
c) Dual Voting - Dual voting is done by implementing both poll and post voting, set during a period predetermined by the referee. In this case, both poll and post votes as outlined in Section III, Article 1, Clauses a and b, are counted. Whichever participant or participants gather the most total votes wins the match. In the event of an irregular tie, in which the number of poll and post votes are not equal, the participant or participants with the most post votes will be declared the winner. In the event of a regular tie, in which the number of both the poll and post votes are completely equal, the referee is free to choose a method to break it, which may or not involve a coin toss or casting a personal vote to break the tie after examining the arguments on all sides.
IV. Terrains
1. Selecting Terrains - In selecting terrains, referees are given a few options.
a) Neutral Terrain - Unless otherwise stated by the referee, the terrain shall always be a neutral terrain, or a terrain which is, for all intents and purposes, not a concrete place, but still imagined to be neutral for both participants, and not favoring either in any way.
b) Set Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a set terrain, a predetermined battlefield chosen by the referee to be the terrain for all matches in all rounds in the entire tournament.
c) Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches for the tournament can be in a random terrain, chosen at random in a method to be decided upon by the referee from a pre-selected grouping or nomination of terrains for every match, left up to the referee’s discretion to decide.
d) Non-Random Terrain - If the referee so chooses, all matches in the tournament can be in a non-random terrain, selected with prior knowledge by either the referee or the voters, ideally one which is as neutral as possible to both participants.
2. Depowering By Virtue of Terrain - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which is not in the participant’s home universe, it is assumed that that participant will still always be as strong or as powerful in that terrain as he or she would be in their home universe. The fact that a terrain is in another universe should not automatically create a situation in which any participant is rendered powerless. The only exception to this would be borderline cases in which items in the terrain genuinely depower any participant, by exploiting a known weakness, and in which case it becomes the referee’s call to keep the participant’s powers or not.
3. Non-Interference - In the event that any match occurs in a terrain which may include non-participants or other entities, it is assumed that any of these which could directly affect the match are removed from the arena before the match begins. Those who could not directly affect the match are permitted to stay in the arena for the duration of the match.
4. Terrain Boundaries - Unless otherwise stated, all terrains are magically sealed off to totally prevent any participant from escaping the match in any way, shape or form. The boundaries of each terrain are set at a distance several football fields apart from each other in width, reach a depth just before the plane’s core, and reach a height just before the exosphere. No participant should have any capabilities to send their opponents outside the terrain.
V. Prep Time and Information
1. Time To Prepare - In selecting options to give participants prep time, referees are given a few options.
a) No Prep Time - Participants are given no time to prepare for the match and are transported to the terrain with nothing else other than what they routinely carry with them.
b) Prep Time With No Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, but no additional resources, technology, magic or weapons.
c) Prep Time With Limited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and have access to resources, technology, magic or weapons they would have on a routine basis.
d) Prep Time With Unlimited Access - Participants are given time to prepare or strategize, and all of their weapons and resources from all media.
2. Information - In selecting options to give participants information, referees are given a few options.
a) No Information - Participants are given no information for the match and are transported to the terrain with no idea about their opponent or opponents.
b) Limited Information - Participants are given time to study their opponents, or are given limited knowledge about them before the match begins. It may be any of the following choices:
VI. Victory Conditions
1. Win Conditions - Every match must have a win condition, which may consist of one or all of the following:
a) Victory by Death or Destruction - Killing the opposing participant is always considered a victory. In cases of non-living entities, total destruction is also considered a victory. In team battles, only when all participants on a team are killed or destroyed are they removed from the arena.
b) Victory by KO or Incapacitation - In cases where it would be out of character for a participant to kill or destroy another due to high morality or other personal preferences, or when an opposing participant is rendered immortal or unkillable by virtue of their powers, a victory by KO may also be considered a victory. In cases of non-living entities, incapacitation is also considered a victory. A KO or incapacitation has to render the character either physically or mentally unconscious or physically or mentally immobile for a duration of at least ten minutes to be considered a victory. In team battles, only when all participants on a team are killed or destroyed, or knocked out incapacitated for a duration of ten minutes, are they removed from the arena.
2. Post-Victory Conditions - Some situations in team battles may also allow one participant to be defeated before the other, in which case, the following clauses may apply:
a) No Ontological Intertia - In team battles, if one participant is defeated, and that participant is removed from the arena, any items, magic, technology, and the like, which that participant brought into the arena or created during the match, shall immediately cease to exist for the remainder of the match.
VII. Escape Articles and Clauses
1. Referee’s Discretion - Should any of the provisions in The Codex prove insufficient to make a ruling, the referee’s discretion shall apply, and any rulings are final.
2. Voter’s Discretion - Should the referee so choose, the opinions of the voters may also be gathered to express opinions over rulings or provisions outlined in The Codex or created by the referee.
3. Spirit of The Codex - Any interpretations of rules in The Codex must be done in line with the spirit or reasoning behind why the rule was put in place in mind. In the event that provisions in The Codex are rendered unclear or ambiguous due to their wording or any grammatical oversight, the spirit behind the rules must be applied in all cases.
For the “Tournament of Champions” and the “Tournament of Underdogs”, all sections, articles, clauses and points of The Codex are implemented, except the following:
All other provisions are in full effect.
EDIT 2: Upon Iso's request, here are all the original teams of the TOC, in the order they were nominated...
2. Team "Cybernetic Cannon" - Mega Man X and Samus Aran
3. Team "Justice For All" - Gideon Jura and Captain America
4. Team "Godslayer" - Dante (Dante's Inferno) and Kratos
5. Team "Badass" - Jaime Lannister and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
6. Team "Basketballers" - Shaq and Barkley
7. Team "Viva la Revolution" - Amon and V
8. Team "By Your Powers Combined" - Captain Planet and Avatar Aang
9. Team "Electromagnetic Pulse" - Magneto and Static
10. Team "Smash" - Doomsday and Hulk
11. Team "Wizard Guide" - Gandalf the White and Albus Dumbledore
12. Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
13. Team "Mythology" - Wonder Woman and Thor
14. Team "Rescue the Princess" - Mario and Link
15. Team "Crazy Supernatural Killers" - Dante (Devil May Cry) and Bayonetta
16. Team "Human Mental Prowess" - Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor
17. Team "Dark Lords" - Emperor Palpatine and Lord Voldemort
18. Team "Chaotic Genius" - Abaddon, The Despoiler and Tezzeret, The Seeker
19. Team "Disney Villains" - Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent
20. Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
21. Team "Aimbot" - Legolas and Hawkeye
22. Team "The Vampire Slayers" - Buffy and Blade
23. Team "Metal Men" - Iron Man and Boba Fett
24. Team "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers!" - Batman and The Punisher
25. Team "Pest Control Problem" - Mighty Mouse and King Mickey Mouse (Kingdom Hearts)
26. Team "Fun Size" - Yoda and Kirby
27. Team "I'm Not A Hero" - Dr. McCay and Wolverine
28. Team "Speed" - The Flash (Wally West) and Sonic the Hedgehog
29. Team "Insane" - The Joker and The Green Goblin
30. Team "Assassins" - Ezio Auditore and Grey Fox
31. Team "Micro Mech" - Human Replicator Samantha Carter and Borg-Infested Captain Picard
32. Team "Suplex Machine" - Mike Haggar and King
EDIT 3: Here is a list of all known sources for the TOC and their current classification. Additional sources and suggestions are welcome!
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels, Samurai X and Rurouni Kenshin Anime Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
2. Team "Cybernetic Cannon" - Mega Man X and Samus Aran
Primary Sources: Megaman X and Metroid Video Games
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
3. Team "Justice For All" - Gideon Jura and Captain America
Primary Sources: MTG Cards and Novels and the MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
4. Team "Godslayer" - Dante (Dante's Inferno) and Kratos
Primary Sources: Dante's Inferno and God of War Video Games
Secondary Sources: Dante's Divine Comedy, Greek Mythology
Tertiary Sources: ???
5. Team "Badass" - Jaime Lannister and Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen
Primary Sources: Song of Fire and Ice and Game of Thrones, Dune Novels and Movies
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
6. Team "Basketballers" - Shaq and Barkley
Primary Sources: Shaq Fu and Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden
Secondary Sources: Real Life
Tertiary Sources: ???
7. Team "Viva la Revolution" - Amon and V
Primary Sources: Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series, V for Vendetta Comic Book and Movie
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
8. Team "By Your Powers Combined" - Captain Planet and Avatar Aang
Primary Sources: Captain Planet and the Planeteers, Avatar: The Last Airbender and Avatar: The Legend of Korra TV Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
9. Team "Electromagnetic Pulse" - Magneto and Static
Primary Sources: MCU, DCAU, Static Shock
Secondary Sources: Heroclix, Young Justice
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books, Marvel vs. Capcom
10. Team "Smash" - Doomsday and Hulk
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
11. Team "Wizard Guide" - Gandalf the White and Albus Dumbledore
Primary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Movies and Books
Secondary Sources: LOTR and Harry Potter Video Games
Tertiary Sources: ???
12. Team "Final Fantasy Villains" - Kefka and Sephiroth
Primary Sources: Final Fantasy Video Games and Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
13. Team "Mythology" - Wonder Woman and Thor
Primary Sources: MCU and DCAU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
14. Team "Rescue the Princess" - Mario and Link
Primary Sources: Super Mario Bros. and Legend of Zelda Video Game Series, The Hyrule Historia
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
15. Team "Crazy Supernatural Killers" - Dante (Devil May Cry) and Bayonetta
Primary Sources: Devil May Cry and Bayonetta Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Devil May Cry Manga and Anime Series
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
16. Team "Human Mental Prowess" - Dr. Doom and Lex Luthor
Primary Sources: Fantastic Four Television Series and DCAU
Secondary Sources: MCU (only because Dr. Doom in the comics is nothing like in the F4 movies), Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom
17. Team "Dark Lords" - Emperor Palpatine and Lord Voldemort
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movie Series and Harry Potter Books and Movies
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
18. Team "Chaotic Genius" - Abaddon, The Despoiler and Tezzeret, The Seeker
Primary Sources: Warhammer 40k Tabletop Game, MTG
Secondary Sources: Warhammer 40k Lore
Tertiary Sources: ???
19. Team "Disney Villains" - Sorcerer Jafar and Maleficent
Primary Sources: Aladdin and Sleeping Beauty Disney Animated Movies
Secondary Sources: Kingdom Hearts Series
Tertiary Sources: Traditional Fairy Tales
20. Team "Psychic Monsters" - Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo
Primary Sources: MTG and the Pokémon TV Series and Movies
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Pokémon Video Games and TCG
Tertiary Sources: ???
21. Team "Aimbot" - Legolas and Hawkeye
Primary Sources: LOTR Books and Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: LOTR Video Games, Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
22. Team "The Vampire Slayers" - Buffy and Blade
Primary Sources: Buffy The Vampire Slayer TV Series, MCU
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Vampire Folklore
23. Team "Metal Men" - Iron Man and Boba Fett
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, MCU
Secondary Sources: Star Wars Books and EU
Tertiary Sources: ???
24. Team "We Don't Need No Stinking Powers!" - Batman and The Punisher
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
25. Team "Pest Control Problem" - Mighty Mouse and King Mickey Mouse (Kingdom Hearts)
Primary Sources: Mighty Mouse Cartoon Series, Kingdom Hearts Series
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: Disney Animated Canon
26. Team "Fun Size" - Yoda and Kirby
Primary Sources: Star Wars Movies, Kirby Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series, Star Wars Books and EU, Kirby of the Stars/Kirby: Right Back At Ya! (Hoshi no Kaabii; Kirby Anime)
Tertiary Sources: ???
27. Team "I'm Not A Hero" - Dr. McCay and Wolverine
Primary Sources: Star Gate TV Series and MCU
Secondary Sources: Heroclix
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
28. Team "Speed" - The Flash (Wally West) and Sonic the Hedgehog
Primary Sources: DCAU and Sonic Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Teen Titans, Young Justice, Heroclix, Sonic the Hedgehog TV Series and Anime
Tertiary Sources: Comic Books
29. Team "Insane" - The Joker and The Green Goblin
Primary Sources: DCAU and MCU
Secondary Sources: The Dark Knight Movie, Spider Man Animated Series
Tertiary Sources: ???
30. Team "Assassins" - Ezio Auditore and Grey Fox
Primary Sources: Assassin's Creed and Metal Gear Video Game Series
Secondary Sources: Smash Bros. Video Game Series
Tertiary Sources: European History
31. Team "Micro Mech" - Human Replicator Samantha Carter and Borg-Infested Captain Picard
Primary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate TV Series
Secondary Sources: Star Trek and Star Gate Novels
Tertiary Sources: ???
32. Team "Suplex Machine" - Mike Haggar and King
Primary Sources: Final Fight and the Tekken Series
Secondary Sources: Professional Wrestling
Tertiary Sources: Marvel vs. Capcom 3
33. Team "Neo-Badass" - Komato Assassin Asha and Hiei/Vincent
Primary Sources: Iji and Yu Yu Hakusho/Ghost Fighter
Secondary Sources: ???
Tertiary Sources: ???
How well do you do against one?
Human Torch should be SHW btw. He can create a supernova.
Of course, tier discussions are open to being talked about. We have to draw the line using some sort of qualifier, including "upper tier" and "lower tier" examples to even the power levels considerably.
EDIT: Double checked your claim on SHW level... uhm, actually, Human Torch is borderline MW to HW depending on the metagame. Spider-Man, who is a solid MW (want to argue him being HW?), beats him in this thread (40 to 23 in terms of votes... all post votes at that; none of the comic book forum matches I witnessed had polls in them, with the "dual voting system" being a personal invention), with no time to prepare, on a terrain with water in it. Yes, they were put in the same bracket in that one, and quite a few fans were aware of Torch's ability to go Nova, but that didn't bump up his power level.
How well do you do against one?
Also Spiderman's more popular.
That's true, and it was a major factor in the battle, but the point still stands that they were put in the same bracket, which means they have comparable power levels, and if Spider-Man is a MW, then that's still two brackets lower than SHW, or even if Spider-Man is a borderline HW, that's still one bracket lower than SHW for both of them.
Besides, looking up his Wikipedia article, Torch's powers include flight, immunity to burns, and control over fire. That's powerful, sure, and I bet he's great at what he does if he can go Nova to obliterate opponents, but the difference between a HW and a SHW is the variety of powers available to them. Compare Superman's multitude of powers and how good he is at using them (the mark of a character who is definitely SHW) to Torch's rather specialist control over pyrokinesis (strong, but specialized and with no great variety of powers) and you'll see what I mean when it comes to the tiers.
As for popularity, not much we can do about that. Anything involving votes could be seen a popularity contest when it boils down to it, but that's part of the whole deal of trying to run this, so...
EDIT: Of course, could you mean that Superman should be bumped up to Cosmic, and Torch to SHW? Because that would make sense if you did, since I don't think they belong in the same tier.
How well do you do against one?
Ah. Thanks for clarifying that! So you think that they should be grouped according to what they could do with their powers rather than what they would actually do with them...
I see your point, given the fact that nearly every match involving comic book characters tends to devolve down that route, throwing characterization out the window and finding the most efficient and amped up way to kill opponents, no matter the cost.
But then, does making weight classes even help if that's going to be the attitude of people who argue that way? I'm beginning to think it's possible to make those kinds of arguments regardless of whether it's a comic book character or otherwise, having read a few threads on this forum. All it takes is one person who will pull out a similar point of view no matter how out of character (OOC) it is.
I think this is a crucial point that needs to be discussed for the sake of all future matches. Other opinions on this matter would be great as well. Please speak your mind.
How well do you do against one?
For the second one we can add rules. Citing exactly which version of a character we want to use is probably necessary.
I would like to impose the general rule of "No Outliers."
Example: Superman
Normal - Flies around, super strength, shoots lasers from his eyes
Outlier - (Superman Prime) Cosmic awareness, Reality Changing, Infinite Strength, Can will himself back into reality
Exampe: Thor
Normal - Has a hammer, super strength, hits people with hammer, flies around, shoots lightning
Outlier - (Rune King Thor) Cosmic Awareness, Omnipotent... / (Random Crazy stuff) Whirl Mjolner to make a rift in reality...
Example: Wonderwoman
Normal - Flies, Super strength, Fast, Lasso of Truth...
Outlier - Picks up the world
and so on...
We can hit the heart of the characters. I don't think we need to do anything other than not use the extremes as the examples. These characters mentioned are not defined by their super-absurd feats. They have a general persona that we can use.
I oppose any sweeping rule changes for this tournament. The only change I would like to add would be a general ban on outliers. Even then I think a hard ban on extremes in powers is a bad idea. Mentioning the extremes in powers and perhaps formally declaring them as a "feat" or something might help balance unduly powerful examples while keeping discussion from devolving.
That would put power limitations as we could say they are from this story arch through this story arch so they can't do that. I'm 100% sure that during the nominations if that was in place and Thor was brought up then we would not have a situation where he is overpowered as you (Poring) would have said no Rune King Thor is to powerful for this and made them change it. However we have characters from comic books who have 50 different authors who all want to change the character in their own way. Then we have characters from video games and other outlets of entertainment who only have 1 form and so there limitations are set in stone.
I would also like to suggest getting rid of poll voting and only using the votes that have a valid argument behind them in an attempt to fix popularity contests as well as votes that just have "Takes on the other team single handedly" Your vote should only count if it has a valid argument behind it. Voting is a privilege and if you can't control yourself and make a valid argument that privilege should be taken away from you. If you vote for a team and somebody else thinks of a way your argument is flawed you can still have your vote count for whichever team you want as long as you clearly gave it a good shot.
So my suggestion would be if we restart the tournament to have the write ups be more specific or if we continue fix the write ups that we are using, and to change the voting style.
For each nominated team, open a thread. In that thread put a poll to decide if the team should be in the tournament (Just "Yes" or "No" options). In that very same thread will be a discussion about the team members' power level, abilities to use in the tournament, posts and posts of information on them, material to be considered (comics, video games, movies, TV...). But it's a reaaaally long process.
Also, I suggest to reduce the tournament to only 16 teams: to comply with the 32 number, we squeezed some teams that should not be there.
At, for last suggestion, I think we should pick up ONE CHARACTER as standard. Every other suggestion will be measured against that character and if deemed too powerful or too weak, not accepted in the tournament.
As you can see, I vote up to restart the tournament.
Note: I second Belgareth's suggestion about "ignoring" empty votes and possible "banning" troublemaker posters.
[Clan Flamingo]
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I felt the burden of defending Abaddon was my job... Seriously, it looked like no one else here has even picked up a Codex or played 40K for even a minute.
And then, they started in on Tezzeret, I mean, Really? His Craftyness is borderline Jack Sparrow-levels... He can manage to pull himself out of even the most sticky of situations (unless it gets personal... Then he really doesn't care about leaving, only his pride.)
IT was mentioned that to transmute metal, he has to touch it. I mentioned that the entire furnace layer was Metal, and he'd been on Mirrodin/New Phyrexia since that story arch, so he'd perfectly know his way around the plane and how to take advantage of it.
And then there were like, 20 posts with this one line
"Vote M"
"Vote WW"
"Vote Thor"
...no reason, just saying that. Meta-voting...
So yeah, I felt it necessary to fight the metavoting, it even started in the HMP v FFV thread...
Vote Doom
Vote HMP
...No reason, just Metavoting.
I vote to restart, with balanced teams, not with characters that are ALL of their versions in one...
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Additional to that is that you come up with your ideas and, although is fair that you tell us your opinion, you always present them as facts, very arrogantly, commonly with childish mockery on the other participants.
You took the battles of Team Chaotic Genius as your personal battles. And I'm not the only one that thinks that way.
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
So how to salvage? Catmurderer nailed it. Make an official decree that if a character has done something once or twice, it's not allowed here. If someone got hit by a nuke once and survived - fine, that's evidence of their toughness. If someone destroyed the Earth once, let's just assume there're not going to do that again.
Additionally, Poring, you've shown yourself to be a level-headed debater and I think you have in mind the best direction this tournament can take. I fully support you acting as a mod in this case and just laying down the laws. If you go too far, we'll call you on it, but stepping in with some bold orange text to keep things in line is 100% okay by me. Talk to the WCT mods about how far they'd be comfortable with you going, but I feel confident saying you've got the people's support on this one.
[Clan Flamingo]
The clan for custom card creators!
Exactly this. This is the issue I had that started in the Doomsday&Hulk Versus Iron Man & Boba Fett thread. The only Character anyone was focused on was Doomsday and whether or not he could be killed at all. It made the discussion very narrow and ended up coming down to a combo of people just not wanting Doomsday to win and me finding a Disintegrator weapon that Boba Fett uses to convince people that Boba Fett could use it to disintegrate Doomsday's head... It didnt even get into whether or not it was likely that the team could pull it off it was just "nuh uh that doesnt work! super immunity and regen!"
Would you say Doomsday is overpowered? To my knowledge he has not really changed to much in all his story arches he has always been a super crazy killing machine. Just wondering...
I think it depends on how you look at him. At one time Superman killed him by punching him in the face... but then he became immune to Superman punches. I think if you go with a baseline Doomsday from when he first appeared he'd be ok, it seems to me that after all of his story arcs though he now has the ability to survive being shot into the sun and other nonsense. There were people arguing that even if Doomsday's head was disintegrated he'd regenerate so fast that it wouldnt count as a KO... That's just insane to me. Then add on an apparent immunity to every single pathogen, radiation, energy weapon... Things need to be kill-able/KO-able outside of plot devices. If it can be agreed that it's a kill-able form of Doomsday (like he isnt immune to pathogens and radiation from universe outside his own) then it would be fine.
The problem with superman is he is either basically God or he's worthless (kryptonite). You could easily let Superman into a tournament like this if you give everyone Kryptonite... but then why have him there?
Also: I think Draftguy2's point on the write ups is a good one. A lot if not all of the write-up seemed to focus on flavor... it would have been more helpful if they focused on power. Then it would have been obvious that team Badass had no chance at all and possibly (depending on nominator) that team Doomsday was being viewed in an OP way. It also would have put that power definition at the beginning of the Match thread so people knew which version of the character was being talked about which is very important for comic characters and can even be for others like Palpatine (is he the movie version or the cloned one from the books later).
Edit:
It could also help if we have some of the powers laid out so if a character has 1 really stupid OP power (like summoning) it can be agreed at that point that they dont have access to it.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Id like to bring up one ing that plague father said.
"DQ all marvel/DC" characters. I actually see a benefit to this.
Marvel and dc are two universes that have been stagnant. Thryve existed for a really long time and the characters there are old. Over the years tons of stuff has been written and lots of it doesnt make sense. Id say as soon as FTL is involved that person should be DQ. The is no way around it. Either you allow it due to magic, and the person wins virtually any fight except against others like it. Or you disallow it and their supporters feel cheated. The problem with faster than light is that its a really big number. Its like billions or quadrillions. If i wanted to make someone interesting, ive got to use the biggest number i know. It seem a lot of characters seem to focus around 3 speeds depending on the "group". Super human speed (40k for example). Speed of sound( cant think of any) and speed of light (DQ, Marvel). Anything involving the speed of light obviously has no justification other than the writters took the fastest they could find. Normally, there should be a progression with either the same number at each level, or more at the bottom and less on top. Dc and marvel are just like superhuman like spiderman batman and then boom lightspeed on anyone a league above. Anyone can see thats just through bad writting. Same thing with the strength thing. Their levels are inflated to ridiculous (not just exagerated, but impossible due to the laws of physics).
Id say you cant exceed real universe physics. Either nerf everyone to no ftl and stuff or dq anyone above that point.
I don't think I completely agree with this. That would only put people like Batman and Punisher on the playing field, would it not? @ exceeding physics
It also doesn't take into account that people have things like magic, different types of energy, etc.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player