SSJ is short for Super Saiya-Jin, which is the direct transliteration from the original japanese name for the race.
imo Goku wins. He can just blow up the sun and it's GG to Superman which is the source of Superman's power (as far as I know with my limited knowledge of Superman).
I just want to point something out; if by chance Goku were to choose to use the Dragon Balls to wish Superman dead, the wish would be wasted. The Eternal Dragon can only affect individuals if 1. he's much more powerful than the individual or 2. the individual is willing to be affected. The Eternal Dragon is only as powerful as its creator, and I doubt Kami, Dende, or the Namekian Grand Elder are anywhere near as powerful as Superman.
Couple points you have to realize. Goku is basically Doomsday. Saiyans are a race of Doomsdays. Superman stalemated Doomsday at best, lost at worst. This was covered by DC already.
Therefore you should really be arguing Doomsday VS. Goku. That would be the REAL competition.
I voted Superman, but then I reconsidered; it would probably be a draw. If either fighter was stronger than the other, he would still limit himself for a fair fight.
Besides, killing off one of them would leave the other easy prey for the inevitable Darkseid/Frieza teamup.
See, this is the problem with "A>B, B>C, and therefore A>C" arguments.
King Piccolo beat Goku during their first fight.
Superman could pretty assuredly beat King Piccolo.
Therefore, Superman can beat Goku.
See the problem here?
If we took Superman Prime versus SS4 Goku, it would be Superman Prime.
both are basically gods but goku never fracture time with a punch.
I'd say assuming strongest iteration of superman vs strongest goku its superman. The problem is that superman was "too perfect," a hero so writers have been trying to make him weak enough to not be his own deus ex machina for years.
It's funny that people argue that Superman has 'clear limitations' depending upon the writer, while also arguing that Goku is stronger due to what is effectively just poor writing.
Goku was never meant to go past SSJ1, and I'm not convinced that SSJ1 Goku was much stronger than any of Superman's ultimate forms.
I grew up an avid DBZ fan, but I'm giving this to superman. Superman is what he is at all times. Goku takes at least a few moments to power up (if not entire hours of episodes). The only reason Superman wouldn't win this fight is because the boy scout in him would allow Goku to reach his full strength at some point. Otherwise, he'd just take him out while Goku screamed and crapped his pants.
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A close fight, however I would give it to Goku. Two things to consider;
First, it doesn't matter how fast Superman is, Goku has instant transmission. Even in a world where fighters move too fast to follow, Goku can catch enemies off guard.
Second, while it may have been forgotten early on with all the Supar Sayians and Fusions, remember that Sayians get stronger when they get close to the edge of death. Should Superman somehow win, he would only make Goku stronger. Since no prison could hold Goku (He can probably punch his way out and if not, again, instant transmission), it means Supes' defeat is inevitable.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
Can you show a couple of examples where Goku used instant transmission in combat?
During the Cell Games, there's the iconic instant transmission where Goku starts charging his Kamehameha then teleports right behind Cell and blasts his torso away. Keep in mind Cell can sense power levels, so he probably knew Goku was behind him before looking and despite being capable of super fast movements himself could still not dodge or block in time. Now since Superman can't sense power levels, the surprise would be even greater for him.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
Ok.. After scanning this thread.. I have noticed people talking about the different universes and how it would affect the other.. How about this.. put both Max Level Superman vs Max Level Goku on a neutral universe.. Obviously still with the yellow sun.
I have always been a Superman fan through all of his incarnations and I have also been a fan of the Dragonball series(though there are some incarnations of it that I have not seen all of) and I would still have to give the win to Superman although it would be one hell of an epic fight.
Now since Superman can't sense power levels, the surprise would be even greater for him.
Superman can't sense power levels, but he can sense pretty much anything else. This is a guy who can see radio waves, can hear your heart beating from miles away, and, in some incarnations, moves several times faster than the speed of thought. You don't surprise Superman.
Couple points you have to realize. Goku is basically Doomsday.
Dah hell?
No, he's not. Goku fights nothing like Doomsday and has a vastly different power set from Doomsday. Calling Goku "basically Doomsday" is silly and makes no sense as an argument. It'd be like saying "Piccolo is basically Batman, so he's a great detective."
Goku's real power is the ability to increase his power level to greater than whatever his enemies power is.
That's not an ability of Goku. That's a natural consequence of Goku simply growing more powerful, either through training or Super Saiyan transformation. There's no reason to believe he can get stronger than SSJ3 (Unless you're some freak who actually enjoyed GT).
No, he's not. Goku fights nothing like Doomsday and has a vastly different power set from Doomsday. Calling Goku "basically Doomsday" is silly and makes no sense as an argument. It'd be like saying "Piccolo is basically Batman, so he's a great detective."
That's not an ability of Goku. That's a natural consequence of Goku simply growing more powerful, either through training or Super Saiyan transformation. There's no reason to believe he can get stronger than SSJ3 (Unless you're some freak who actually enjoyed GT).
See: Every DC and Marvel comics superhero character ever.
Actually it's in the show that the power of the sayins are two fold, the "I turn in to a monkey in the full moon" and "every time I am beaten near death my power increases exponentially" This is showin in the Friza saga when Vegeta has Krillian beat him up just to increase his power so he might have a better chance at friza.
Haha! Reminds me of my high school days when me and my gang of five or six best friends literally spent hours on this topic.
In the end, we concluded that it would most likely end in a draw (which I voted in this poll). If you will allow me to share, here's our reasoning:
1. The circumstances of the battle. Depending on how the battle is written, it could go either way, however, we were all of the opinion that eventually the two of them would figure out that they are on the same side, choose not to attack each other, and it would end in a draw. We put ourselves in the shoes of the scriptwriters and decided that if we would ever direct a movie or draw a comic of this battle, with all our knowledge of the two characters and trying to keep them in character at all times, while the outcome would largely depend on the circumstances, the ending for most of them is a draw.
2. It depends on which version of the characters fight. We literally drew up scenarios where every version of Superman we could think of (including Kingdom Come Superman, Son of Darkseid Superman, Superman's different incarnations from the Elseworlds saga, the Justice League TV Series, etc.) fought every other version of Goku we could think of from the series (from SS1 through 4 and even as a kid version, plus every other version from each part of the series, including the one where you could grab his tail and render him powerless) and concluded that again, this depends on which universe Superman is taken from and at which point of the Dragon Ball saga Goku is taken from.
(Of course, we paired them according to comparative power level so that neither version had a vast edge over the other. We didn't have Kingdom Come Superman versus the young Goku, nor did we try SS1 Goku versus the young Kal-El a.k.a. Superboy I. Come to think of it, I wonder why no one ever tried to set up the "kid" version of this battle by pitting Superboy I vs. the young Goku, which would probably be just as fun and a lot less confusing. We could at least rule out ridiculous citations of omnipotence on both sides.)
If we wanted to compare the most powerful versions of both characters to each other, we reached a consensus that Goku would win eventually. That is assuming, however, that they both start at their peak and decide to destroy each other from the get go for no apparent reason, which we did not believe would ever happen between the two. As far as we were concerned, that was no longer Superman vs. Goku.
If we picked their everyday versions and then allow them to power them up over time from there, thus allowing the battle to escalate the longer it becomes, then it all becomes a matter of if Superman can stop him before he goes SS4 (which a lot of us fairly believed he could, through methods such as by dipping himself in the sun like in one of his comic versions) but even then, we concluded that it would still end in a draw because neither character would let it get that far or allow the battle to take that long, without resulting to diplomacy, that they would need to use that level of power to destroy their opponent. In other words, to assume that these two characters, in any of their versions, would fight to the finish with their maximum power was generally considered out of character by our gang.
In the end, we were all happy with the idea that in around 90 out of 100 scenarios, this match is an inevitable draw. Of the 10 remaining matches, Goku would win 6 out of 10, but only because in most of those scenarios the Superman or the Goku involved acted so out of character that we couldn't realistically envision it as "THE" Superman vs. Goku battle. In the other 4 matches Superman would win for the same reason. Therefore, if they really fought to the death of the other character, Goku would most likely win, but if they ever did fight to the finish for real, then it's not really a fight between the Superman and Goku we all know about, because that one ends... say it with me... in a draw.
Remember that the reason we love these two characters is because they are characters. It is not necessarily because they're the most powerful beings in their respective universes, but because of their characterization that allows them to use that power responsibly... and to imagine them fighting without that in mind is pointless.
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Come to think of it, I wonder why no one ever tried to set up the "kid" version of this battle by pitting Superboy I vs. the young Goku, which would probably be just as fun and a lot less confusing. We could at least rule out ridiculous citations of omnipotence on both sides.)
Young Goku VS Superboy would end up with young Clark's overwhelming victory. Goku's powers come from training and his Sayian heritage. Superman's powers comes from retcons. As a young boy Clark is already Super. Young Goku is simlpy a little stronger and tougher than the average person, but he still struggles a lot in the early stories.
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It is always easy to be tolerant and understanding...Until someone presents an opinion completely opposite to your own.
Is this even a real discussion? For the sake of this argument I am taking the version of Goku just after the Freezer saga and the standard goodstuff Superman that crosses most of DC's continuum.
EDIT: I am completely disregarding anything that happened after Freezer. I know stuff did happen, but in my opinion if you are strong enough to block a sword with your finger, do you really need to be any stronger? This is literally Goku at his absolute peak in my opinion, after this point the power levels going up and up gets a little out of control and stupid.
First, let's assume the battle took place on earth, and not on some other world or some other plane. Superman takes full advantage of our yellow sun, which grants him all of his standard powers, including super strength and invulnerability.
Goku on the other hand relies only on his own immense power (and it is immense), so he isn't hindered by needing the sun to recharge, however he does suffer from a few weaknesses; he's not invulnerable. While being incredibly strong and resilient, he does bleed, he does suffer from broken bones, and he does get tired. On top of that he burns an incredible amount of energy and has to eat (though a sensu bean can recharge him.)
God it kills me that I know this much about this stuff, but I grew up on comics and cartoons. Anyway...
If they were to truly battle Goku would actually be a pretty powerful opponent for Superman. Blow for blow, Goku is at least as fast as Superman, maybe a little faster, and they are both able to fly. Goku has access to energy powers, and Superman has his heat vision, so both can also fight at range if necessary, though, at least in my mind, both are more melee fighters than ranged so I would guess they would keep it close and personal. Neither would want to fight near cities, so concerns about hurting civilians wouldn't hinder either of them because they would likely fight somewhere far away.
I think the battle would probably be long-winded and take up an entire season of Dragon Ball Z (har har!) but I think in the end unless Goku somehow managed to get some sort of artificial advantage over Superman (finding a piece of Kryptonite, for example), he would ultimately lose. The reason behind this is that while they are both strong, Superman's powersource is the sun, giving him what is essensially an unlimited amount of said power, while Goku, even with a massive over 9000 powerlevel would eventually run out of kamehameha's and either have to give up or be defeated. Even at super saiyan level I don't think he could compete with Superman's static super-strength and invulnerability. Superman is just too powerful. Even Vegeta and Goku combined either fighting together or fused together probably couldn't take on Superman.
This is a relatively unbias opinion as well, as I am not a very big fan of Superman or Goku, prefering Batman and Picolo instead, lol.
Goku's real power is the ability to increase his power level to greater than whatever his enemies power is.
Nevermind the ability to absorb energy from all his believers and an incredible knack for coming back from being dead.
I don't think I'd ever bet against Goku because he just keeps coming back more powerful.
To me this always seems to only apply when you are talking about villains though. In this case you would probably be talking about either a misunderstanding between the two or a legitimate friendly fight, which Goku loves anyway. I just don't see it, you know?
Take Goku versus Freezer/Freeza; Freeza's power goes up, up, and then way up, but then so does Goku's when he hits SSJ. Then Freezer's power starts to plateu, and then it goes down. And then down. And then way down when he gets cut in half.
Superman's power is static. It's way up and it never changes. He's invulnerable to any real injuries. His power is incredibly high, and even if Goku's started off slightly above Superman's, at some point Goku is going to start expending energy and it will start to even out, and then dip below Superman's. And then Superman, like he always does in the comics (except that one time), is going to start to edge out ahead and ultimately win.
This is the problem with comparing heroes against heroes though; you are talking about two main characters who, despite overwhelming (or maybe at times underwhelming for S-man) odds always end up winning at the end of the day. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Superman took Goku out in one hit, even with all of his power. Why? Because he's Superman.
I can't see Superman winning a fight with Goku. Unless someone's hurting his family or his girl, Superman's only goal seems to be stopping in the fight peacefully.
Goku kills Superman.
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If we're going to be serious about this and for the sake of Dragonball nerdom I'm going to have to leave Dragonball GT out of this since it was never canon to the franchise. What really happened from what I was told about this conflict was this:
Goku and Superman fight, Superman has the advantage until Goku turns SSJ1 and fires a Kamehameha Wave at him thus defeating Superman. That's what really happened between Goku and Superman according to fan fiction lore. No SSJ2, SSJ3, or Instant Transmission.
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I'm may be a little biased on this since I am huge DBZ fan, but Goku in his SSJ4 form would slaughter Superman. Goku would probably be favored at SSJ3. Anything below that and Superman should have it.
SSJ is short for Super Saiya-Jin, which is the direct transliteration from the original japanese name for the race.
imo Goku wins. He can just blow up the sun and it's GG to Superman which is the source of Superman's power (as far as I know with my limited knowledge of Superman).
Couple points you have to realize. Goku is basically Doomsday. Saiyans are a race of Doomsdays. Superman stalemated Doomsday at best, lost at worst. This was covered by DC already.
Therefore you should really be arguing Doomsday VS. Goku. That would be the REAL competition.
If we took Superman Prime versus SS4 Goku, it would be Superman Prime.
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Superman has clear limitations depending on the writer.
I'd say assuming strongest iteration of superman vs strongest goku its superman. The problem is that superman was "too perfect," a hero so writers have been trying to make him weak enough to not be his own deus ex machina for years.
Goku was never meant to go past SSJ1, and I'm not convinced that SSJ1 Goku was much stronger than any of Superman's ultimate forms.
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First, it doesn't matter how fast Superman is, Goku has instant transmission. Even in a world where fighters move too fast to follow, Goku can catch enemies off guard.
Second, while it may have been forgotten early on with all the Supar Sayians and Fusions, remember that Sayians get stronger when they get close to the edge of death. Should Superman somehow win, he would only make Goku stronger. Since no prison could hold Goku (He can probably punch his way out and if not, again, instant transmission), it means Supes' defeat is inevitable.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
During the Cell Games, there's the iconic instant transmission where Goku starts charging his Kamehameha then teleports right behind Cell and blasts his torso away. Keep in mind Cell can sense power levels, so he probably knew Goku was behind him before looking and despite being capable of super fast movements himself could still not dodge or block in time. Now since Superman can't sense power levels, the surprise would be even greater for him.
I have always been a Superman fan through all of his incarnations and I have also been a fan of the Dragonball series(though there are some incarnations of it that I have not seen all of) and I would still have to give the win to Superman although it would be one hell of an epic fight.
Dah hell?
No, he's not. Goku fights nothing like Doomsday and has a vastly different power set from Doomsday. Calling Goku "basically Doomsday" is silly and makes no sense as an argument. It'd be like saying "Piccolo is basically Batman, so he's a great detective."
That's not an ability of Goku. That's a natural consequence of Goku simply growing more powerful, either through training or Super Saiyan transformation. There's no reason to believe he can get stronger than SSJ3 (Unless you're some freak who actually enjoyed GT).
See: Every DC and Marvel comics superhero character ever.
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Actually it's in the show that the power of the sayins are two fold, the "I turn in to a monkey in the full moon" and "every time I am beaten near death my power increases exponentially" This is showin in the Friza saga when Vegeta has Krillian beat him up just to increase his power so he might have a better chance at friza.
In the end, we concluded that it would most likely end in a draw (which I voted in this poll). If you will allow me to share, here's our reasoning:
1. The circumstances of the battle. Depending on how the battle is written, it could go either way, however, we were all of the opinion that eventually the two of them would figure out that they are on the same side, choose not to attack each other, and it would end in a draw. We put ourselves in the shoes of the scriptwriters and decided that if we would ever direct a movie or draw a comic of this battle, with all our knowledge of the two characters and trying to keep them in character at all times, while the outcome would largely depend on the circumstances, the ending for most of them is a draw.
2. It depends on which version of the characters fight. We literally drew up scenarios where every version of Superman we could think of (including Kingdom Come Superman, Son of Darkseid Superman, Superman's different incarnations from the Elseworlds saga, the Justice League TV Series, etc.) fought every other version of Goku we could think of from the series (from SS1 through 4 and even as a kid version, plus every other version from each part of the series, including the one where you could grab his tail and render him powerless) and concluded that again, this depends on which universe Superman is taken from and at which point of the Dragon Ball saga Goku is taken from.
(Of course, we paired them according to comparative power level so that neither version had a vast edge over the other. We didn't have Kingdom Come Superman versus the young Goku, nor did we try SS1 Goku versus the young Kal-El a.k.a. Superboy I. Come to think of it, I wonder why no one ever tried to set up the "kid" version of this battle by pitting Superboy I vs. the young Goku, which would probably be just as fun and a lot less confusing. We could at least rule out ridiculous citations of omnipotence on both sides.)
If we wanted to compare the most powerful versions of both characters to each other, we reached a consensus that Goku would win eventually. That is assuming, however, that they both start at their peak and decide to destroy each other from the get go for no apparent reason, which we did not believe would ever happen between the two. As far as we were concerned, that was no longer Superman vs. Goku.
If we picked their everyday versions and then allow them to power them up over time from there, thus allowing the battle to escalate the longer it becomes, then it all becomes a matter of if Superman can stop him before he goes SS4 (which a lot of us fairly believed he could, through methods such as by dipping himself in the sun like in one of his comic versions) but even then, we concluded that it would still end in a draw because neither character would let it get that far or allow the battle to take that long, without resulting to diplomacy, that they would need to use that level of power to destroy their opponent. In other words, to assume that these two characters, in any of their versions, would fight to the finish with their maximum power was generally considered out of character by our gang.
In the end, we were all happy with the idea that in around 90 out of 100 scenarios, this match is an inevitable draw. Of the 10 remaining matches, Goku would win 6 out of 10, but only because in most of those scenarios the Superman or the Goku involved acted so out of character that we couldn't realistically envision it as "THE" Superman vs. Goku battle. In the other 4 matches Superman would win for the same reason. Therefore, if they really fought to the death of the other character, Goku would most likely win, but if they ever did fight to the finish for real, then it's not really a fight between the Superman and Goku we all know about, because that one ends... say it with me... in a draw.
Remember that the reason we love these two characters is because they are characters. It is not necessarily because they're the most powerful beings in their respective universes, but because of their characterization that allows them to use that power responsibly... and to imagine them fighting without that in mind is pointless.
After that was done, we decided to pit them both against Sephiroth, the big bad who organized this battle, instead.
How well do you do against one?
Young Goku VS Superboy would end up with young Clark's overwhelming victory. Goku's powers come from training and his Sayian heritage. Superman's powers comes from retcons. As a young boy Clark is already Super. Young Goku is simlpy a little stronger and tougher than the average person, but he still struggles a lot in the early stories.
EDIT: I am completely disregarding anything that happened after Freezer. I know stuff did happen, but in my opinion if you are strong enough to block a sword with your finger, do you really need to be any stronger? This is literally Goku at his absolute peak in my opinion, after this point the power levels going up and up gets a little out of control and stupid.
First, let's assume the battle took place on earth, and not on some other world or some other plane. Superman takes full advantage of our yellow sun, which grants him all of his standard powers, including super strength and invulnerability.
Goku on the other hand relies only on his own immense power (and it is immense), so he isn't hindered by needing the sun to recharge, however he does suffer from a few weaknesses; he's not invulnerable. While being incredibly strong and resilient, he does bleed, he does suffer from broken bones, and he does get tired. On top of that he burns an incredible amount of energy and has to eat (though a sensu bean can recharge him.)
God it kills me that I know this much about this stuff, but I grew up on comics and cartoons. Anyway...
If they were to truly battle Goku would actually be a pretty powerful opponent for Superman. Blow for blow, Goku is at least as fast as Superman, maybe a little faster, and they are both able to fly. Goku has access to energy powers, and Superman has his heat vision, so both can also fight at range if necessary, though, at least in my mind, both are more melee fighters than ranged so I would guess they would keep it close and personal. Neither would want to fight near cities, so concerns about hurting civilians wouldn't hinder either of them because they would likely fight somewhere far away.
I think the battle would probably be long-winded and take up an entire season of Dragon Ball Z (har har!) but I think in the end unless Goku somehow managed to get some sort of artificial advantage over Superman (finding a piece of Kryptonite, for example), he would ultimately lose. The reason behind this is that while they are both strong, Superman's powersource is the sun, giving him what is essensially an unlimited amount of said power, while Goku, even with a massive over 9000 powerlevel would eventually run out of kamehameha's and either have to give up or be defeated. Even at super saiyan level I don't think he could compete with Superman's static super-strength and invulnerability. Superman is just too powerful. Even Vegeta and Goku combined either fighting together or fused together probably couldn't take on Superman.
This is a relatively unbias opinion as well, as I am not a very big fan of Superman or Goku, prefering Batman and Picolo instead, lol.
To me this always seems to only apply when you are talking about villains though. In this case you would probably be talking about either a misunderstanding between the two or a legitimate friendly fight, which Goku loves anyway. I just don't see it, you know?
Take Goku versus Freezer/Freeza; Freeza's power goes up, up, and then way up, but then so does Goku's when he hits SSJ. Then Freezer's power starts to plateu, and then it goes down. And then down. And then way down when he gets cut in half.
Superman's power is static. It's way up and it never changes. He's invulnerable to any real injuries. His power is incredibly high, and even if Goku's started off slightly above Superman's, at some point Goku is going to start expending energy and it will start to even out, and then dip below Superman's. And then Superman, like he always does in the comics (except that one time), is going to start to edge out ahead and ultimately win.
This is the problem with comparing heroes against heroes though; you are talking about two main characters who, despite overwhelming (or maybe at times underwhelming for S-man) odds always end up winning at the end of the day. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Superman took Goku out in one hit, even with all of his power. Why? Because he's Superman.
Goku kills Superman.
Goku and Superman fight, Superman has the advantage until Goku turns SSJ1 and fires a Kamehameha Wave at him thus defeating Superman. That's what really happened between Goku and Superman according to fan fiction lore. No SSJ2, SSJ3, or Instant Transmission.
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