The sheer grimdarkness of the 40k universe of twisted entities and highly potent technologies, empires, tactics, etc., stomp anything in the Star Wars universe. WH40k is the essence of grimdark power levels while Star Wars is some kind of space romance.
Kahedron's arguments on AT-AT's manufacturing lines are silly, those things would be the equivalent to walking cardboard boxes going up against Landraiders, Thunderhawks, Stormtalons, Predators, even a tac squad.
Kahedron's argument about the Imperium being unorganized is valid (The Taros campaign was a logistical and political nightmare), however, the power level of any fully dedicated force against the power level of a fully dedicated force from the Imperium of Man would be stomped out of existence.
A more fair/equal argument would be something along the lines of the Tau Empire vs. Galactic Empire. Or even Empire vs. anything else in 40k (except Necrons/Chaos) would be more fair.
At any one time there is only roughly 1'000 space marine chapters each with roughly 1'000 men in each. Depending on when in the 41st millennium it is set a lot are going to be at a very reduced strength.
And depsite what you suggested earlier it is a very rare occurrence for all forces to pull the same direction. The only reason it appears to work for events like the 13th black crusade and the 3rd War of Armageddon is so it is easy for the results to be tabulated and work out the outcomes.
Leaving aside the massive world wide campaigns we had influence on about the only thing that is keeping the Imperium in one piece is inertia and its sheer size.
You might also want to have a rethink on your AT-AT arguments again. They are largely imperivous to most man portable guns and the weaponary held on the speeders. It took Luke's Lightsaber to get through the armour and that was only a hatch. Every other AT-AT was brought down by cables and then firing directly into the joints of the neck.
And again the Empire has a production line of AT-AT's and star destroyers. Destroy the chasis and that dreadnought can't be replaced.
Yeah, but seriously, comparing the measly blasters on snow speeder to the awesome power of a Las Cannon is Laughable...
Again, What would happen to one of the precious AT-ATs if a Dreadnought Punched (Or even fired) one of their legs off? Plus, you're forgetting about Devastator Squads, Las-Cannon Sniper anyone?
Multi-Meltas are also VERY effective in taking out enemy armor, seeing as how Melta weapons are VERY, VERY powerful.
I'd roughly say a Lightsaber to be Str 6 at best... Ap2 maybe? Meltas are Str 8 ap1, and they're more effective at half-range effectively doubling their strength.
Simply put, the imperium has access to better weaponry that just piddly blasters... Plasma Cannons, Meltaguns,
Hell, the Guard's tanks can even carry better firepower than an AT-AT... OR, a Rhino can just drive a Marine Right up to an AT-AT, and he could pop out of the top and just blast em with melta... Last I checked, At-AT's weren't that maneuverable... They're slow, shambling machines. Hell, Warhounds could probably walk faster than them...
Are you forgetting that space marines are the 40k universes version of Jedi (in terms of numbers at least)?
Unless the 40k background changed immeasurably since i stopped playing it (a possibility), there are somewhere in the region of 1 million space marines in the 40k galaxy.
This may seem like a staggeringly high number until you consider that the ratio is approximately 1 space marine per inhabited world in the imperium.
Put this way: if the OP had specified empire vs space marines i would have voted for the empire. It's the sheer size of the guard and imperial fleet that brings my vote to the 40k side.
On the subject of the warp storms, it's a contentious issue.
Will they affect ships in hyperspace?
Will they create a mass-shadow? (they are fairly substantial, so one could assume they might - in which case ships would be pulled out of hyperspace before they reached them.)
Last but not least wouldn't both sides suffer equally at the hands of a "neutral" force?
Umm, I don't recall there ever being 1,000,000 Jedi in SW... They numbered in the thousands if I recall...
Also, Navigators of the 40K universe know how to avoid such phenomina if possible, the Empire would be walking blindly into one. Imperial Astropaths could detect such phenomina occurring so as to avoid them when exiting the warp. Remember, Imperium ships don't travel through real-space.
As for Warp Incursion and both parties suffering before the powers of Chaos, The Imperium has fought the forces of Chaos for Millenia... They know how to fight against it. The Empire hasn't encountered a foe like Chaos before, there were reports during the heresy when Astartes boarded enemy ships, of entire pieces of the ship being altered by the Warp, Think about a normal corridor on a star destroyer, then, imagine a Demonic Incursion. That part of the ship would never be the same. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if the Empire traveled in the right places, they'd incur Massive Daemonic Incursion and that fleet would be left derelict by virtue of Daemons killing them.
Simply put, The Empire isn't equipped to deal with such things.
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You might also want to have a rethink on your AT-AT arguments again. They are largely imperivous to most man portable guns and the weaponary held on the speeders. It took Luke's Lightsaber to get through the armour and that was only a hatch. Every other AT-AT was brought down by cables and then firing directly into the joints of the neck.
And again the Empire has a production line of AT-AT's and star destroyers. Destroy the chasis and that dreadnought can't be replaced.
Whlile I agree AT AT's are more capable than Plaguefather makes them out to be, I think AT AT's would still get thrashed facing off against the Imperium.
According to wookiepedia, AT AT's are (as you mentioned) vulnerable at the neck, even to blaster fire. If they are vulnerable to standard issue Star Wars small arms, I assume they are also vulnerable to a bolter at the least.
The underbelly of an AT AT is also unarmored, allowing for 40k universe man-portable heavy weapons to destroy the walker.
While in the ST universe, Luke's lightsaber is a rare weapon, many close combat weapons in 40K are capable of destroying heavy armor, including but not limited to: Thunder Hammers, Chain Fists, and Power Fists. Additionally, entire squads carry melta bombs.
And, we haven't even gotten to superheavy tanks or Titans yet. Whereas the AT AT is the Empire's premiere war machine, The Imperium has much more impressive weapons of war.
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And, we haven't even gotten to superheavy tanks or Titans yet. Whereas the AT AT is the Empire's premiere war machine, The Imperium has much more impressive weapons of war.
You guys are very busy missing the point. It is true the Imperium has got more impressive weapons of war.
They also have a rather large problem. They have impressive weapons of war that they can't replace.
IF something as simple as a Dreadnought or Land Raider gets destroyed the Imperium no longer has the capabilities of replacing them if they can't be destroyed.
It gets even worse for things like the Super heavies, Titans and ships of any stripe.
The Empire will be able to make good any losses with comparable quality much easier than the Imperium will. To put it into a historical context the Imperium's super tanks are like German Tigers and King Tigers in WW2 absolutely wonderful tanks but if they were disabled they needed to be abandoned as they could not be recovered by anything smaller than another Tiger/King Tiger and as they were so complicated/expensive they were not replaced. The Empire is the American Sherman individually useless, we called them Ronson's after a brand of cigarette lighter lights first time every time the Germans were even crueler called then Tommy cookers. But the Sherman as a lot easier to build and maintain so when they were inevitably destroyed there was another 4 or 5 waiting right behind them.
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It has been pointed out that the Imperium isn't so hot at replacing lost weapons of war, and even much of their repair is more based on superstition than science. If I understand my 40k correctly, "innovations" in the Imperium's tech is largely based on finding/recovering templates for new war machines. Regardless, I do think the Empire has an edge, in terms of production capacity/ability to innovate. Is it enough to out-match the Imperium? I doubt it highly, but they do have a strong edge, at least in this one area.
That said, The Imperium isn't incapable of replacing weapons of war: Forge Worlds are very well documented in 40k background material:
The issue with the Imperium's economy isn't so much that they can't produce (though again, the Empire has the advantage here), its that they have no ingenuity, or understanding of how things work.
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I was going to say the same thing about producing replacements, but coffee said it too, so.
How do you think Marine Chapters constantly replace their broken tanks and Dreadnoughts? The Adeptus Mechanicus are very good at this sort of thing, they just aren't that great on innovating on design... they just kinda build things the way they know how.
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How do you think Marine Chapters constantly replace their broken tanks and Dreadnoughts? The Adeptus Mechanicus are very good at this sort of thing, they just aren't that great on innovating on design... they just kinda build things the way they know how.
Short answer: They don't.
Long answer: Much like we in the 21st century could not reconstruct things like the roof of Westminister abbey if it was ever damaged/destroyed. The Imperium has lost the secrets of how to build those vehicles.
All the Landraiders/Dreadnought chassis that are currently in existence are relics from the Heresy and give an almost religious significance by the chapters that own them.
The Forge worlds are brilliant at patching things up and building the simple stuff the Guard needs but for Space MArines and the Titan Legions far to much got lost in the Heresy.
Same thing for the Super heavy companies atleast one class of Super heavy tank is no longer in existence because the only Forge world that knew how to produce it was overrun by Orks and over the next couple of centuries the last remaining few were destroyed due to normal attrition.
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Long answer: Much like we in the 21st century could not reconstruct things like the roof of Westminister abbey if it was ever damaged/destroyed. The Imperium has lost the secrets of how to build those vehicles.
All the Landraiders/Dreadnought chassis that are currently in existence are relics from the Heresy and give an almost religious significance by the chapters that own them.
The Forge worlds are brilliant at patching things up and building the simple stuff the Guard needs but for Space Marines and the Titan Legions far to much got lost in the Heresy.
Same thing for the Super heavy companies atleast one class of Super heavy tank is no longer in existence because the only Forge world that knew how to produce it was overrun by Orks and over the next couple of centuries the last remaining few were destroyed due to normal attrition.
According to the wiki I linked above, that isn't true. It States that Titans are produced on Forgeworlds. Also, if you look up "land raider" it is listed as a "standard template construct" vehicle, meaning the Imperium is able to produce them.
That said, it can take centuries to build a single Titan. Still, I'd imagine a Warlord Titan (the most common Imperial Titan) would destroy many, many times its own number of AT AT's.
Long answer: Much like we in the 21st century could not reconstruct things like the roof of Westminister abbey if it was ever damaged/destroyed. The Imperium has lost the secrets of how to build those vehicles.
All the Landraiders/Dreadnought chassis that are currently in existence are relics from the Heresy and give an almost religious significance by the chapters that own them.
The Forge worlds are brilliant at patching things up and building the simple stuff the Guard needs but for Space MArines and the Titan Legions far to much got lost in the Heresy.
Same thing for the Super heavy companies atleast one class of Super heavy tank is no longer in existence because the only Forge world that knew how to produce it was overrun by Orks and over the next couple of centuries the last remaining few were destroyed due to normal attrition.
Umm, no? How about this, we're currently on the Mark V dreadnought chassis, Mark 5... We've come from Contemptor pattern dreadnoughts to the mark 4s all the way up to the MK5... Also, If i'm not mistaken the current Land Raider chassis is in MK4 stage. Have you not seen the first 3 variants?
seriously, please stop saying things like that. Sure, while Titans take forever to build, other things, like Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders, do not. Actually, the Imperium has also started making other Vehicles mass produced beyond the first chapters to use them, It used to be that only the Blood Angels and their successor chapters had access to the Stormraven Gunships, then the Grey Knights got it, now almost any Marine chapter can have them.
The Imperium is constantly finding these STCs. And when they do find them they usually begin mass production.
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Expanded universe of Starwars or not ?
If it's expanded universe not just the films then the Empire have Grand Admiral Thrawn who is a strategic genius beyond absolutely anyone.
Both Palpatine , Vader and the Dark Jedi Joruus C'baoth all created clones of themselves that had limited life spans but were fully capable threats.
Army of Force wielders + Army of clones (taken off Jango Fett mold) + Thrawn as tactician is an absolute force to be reckoned with.
If it's movies only .... then pffffft Star wars is screwed.
You do realize that 40K has its' own Tactical Genius, right? Ursarkar E. Creed, the current Lord Castellan of Cadia...
You'll often find pics of him and something due to Tactical Genius, they're really funny memes.
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You do realize that 40K has its' own Tactical Genius, right? Ursarkar E. Creed, the current Lord Castellan of Cadia...
You'll often find pics of him and something due to Tactical Genius, they're really funny memes.
Cadia sounds a lot like Carida.
If EU stuff is fair game, the Empire packs a pretty damned serious punch. The Sun Crusher could send suns into Supernova, within 5-10 minutes (by firing some sort of torpedo into the star). It was also indestructible by most means, though eventually destroyed by being driven into a black hole.
It was also the size of a starfighter, with similar speed and hyperspace capacity.
I suppose if you throw in the Sun Crusher, the Empire can stand a chance since the thing flew through an imperial class star destroyer with no damage. Since it has hyperdrive, just send it to the star system where the Emperor of Mankind lives and make the star go super nova.
Without the coordinates, the ship can still take on a sizable fleet of ships and win.
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I suppose if you throw in the Sun Crusher, the Empire can stand a chance since the thing flew through an imperial class star destroyer with no damage. Since it has hyperdrive, just send it to the star system where the Emperor of Mankind lives and make the star go super nova.
Without the coordinates, the ship can still take on a sizable fleet of ships and win.
If that's the case, a psyker can just make the pilot's head explode...
seriously, you wouldn't destroy but one ship with that thing without the Imperium catching on, "Impervious to damage? Oh, let's make his head explode, or send it into the warp..."
Seriously, everyone likes to overplay the Jedi/invincible ship crap but they won't listen to one of the most basic things psykers can do...
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I think that you are GREATLY overestimating a Psykers abilities... your telling me, that in the depths of space, a Psyker can find an individual mind, in a MOVING STARSHIP THE SIZE OF AN AVERAGE FIGHTER, not knowing exactly where said fighter is, and cause that ship's pilot to explode?
now, I dont know much about the WH40K universe, but that seems a little absurd. and if that IS the case, this whole argument is moot since whoever designed the WH40K universe made EVERYTHING immensely overpowered.
just my .02 cents, there.
note, that I am speaking about the AVERAGE psyker: individual psykers may be able to do so, just as individual Jedi are able to lift a FREAKING STAR DESTROYER, but the average Psyker probably would be incapable of this feat.
I think that you are GREATLY overestimating a Psykers abilities... your telling me, that in the depths of space, a Psyker can find an individual mind, in a MOVING STARSHIP THE SIZE OF AN AVERAGE FIGHTER, not knowing exactly where said fighter is, and cause that ship's pilot to explode?
now, I dont know much about the WH40K universe, but that seems a little absurd. and if that IS the case, this whole argument is moot since whoever designed the WH40K universe made EVERYTHING immensely overpowered.
just my .02 cents, there.
note, that I am speaking about the AVERAGE psyker: individual psykers may be able to do so, just as individual Jedi are able to lift a FREAKING STAR DESTROYER, but the average Psyker probably would be incapable of this feat.
You must not have any knowledge about the 40K universe if this surprises you...
For Psykers to use their powers they have to reach into the Warp and literally stroke the essence of a Warp-being. Think about it, reaching into the Immaterium, and touching an entity of unlimited power, to channel that power into the material realm.
The very nature of Psykers is that their potential is LIMITLESS, sure, they put themselves at risk of being possessed by warp entities, or being killed by the experience, but there's a vast number of psykers in the 40K universe. The Grey Knights are ALL psykers... Each SM Chapter has a number of librarians, The Imperial Guard make effective use of Psykers as well in a more weaponistic profile. (The Grey Knights psycannons are literally powered by TEARS OF THE EMPEROR!)
Not to mention Random Warp Incursions, I don't think The Gods of Chaos would willingly let you take their meal away from them by destroying the Imperium. With no Psyker presence in the material realm, the Forces of Chaos couldn't enter into the physical universe again, So you also have to factor in THEIR powers to stop something like that. (I mention The Daemons of Chaos because they can't be defeated, they can only be sent back into the warp, which, they'll incur into the mortal realm when they please again, somewhere else.) I mean, hell, Tzeentch isn't called the "Changer of Ways" for nothing.
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I don't remember if the Galactic Empire ever used Sun Crushers? I thought they were still in the prototype stage when Emperor Palpatine died.
The prototype was just kind of chilling in the Maw because Tarkin dying meant the Maw installation got ignored.
There are other options for the Empire, though, including superlasers mounted on normal Star Destroyers (which even I didn't know about until I looked it up, so you learn something new every day, it seems).
So killing the Emprah... Doesn't he turn into a God of Chaos or something if that happens? Or is that non-canonical?
IT's not canon, but many believe he would transcend into this awesome Divine entity which could protect the Imperium forever and eliminate all of its' enemies. except chaos, but then, this divine entity could prevent daemonic incursion on imperial worlds. And since daemons would'nt be able to incur onto imperial worlds, they'd technically be defeated.
But it's not Canon, the Emprah is still alive, I just can't wait until he recovers, that'll be the day the Imperium would REALLY start to push back into the universe. Then all the Xenos would tremble in fear of His awesome might.
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Oh god, Plaguefather, stop spewing stuff that isn't true about 40k.
"The psychic power the top four grades represents is immense. A high Delta level can read the minds of all the people in a good-sized town simultaneously, or crush a man to death against a wall in seconds. High-grade psykers are extremely powerful, and not to be taken lightly. Beta grade is the highest level of psychic power that a human can attain and still be considered sane.
An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally.
There is some controversy as to whether this description should be taken as an objective description of the Alpha Level of psychic mastery, or if it is intended to be read as Imperial propaganda, and just the exaggerated view of the generally anti-psychic authorities of the Imperium. The Alpha grade psyker Esarhaddon is powerful enough to control hundreds of Imperial citizens as puppets, but he is not described as being powerful enough to destroy a Battle Titan, and is eventually subdued.
However, there are very few Alpha or Αlpha Plus psykers that can be controlled safely, or even at all. Because more powerful psykers attract proportionally more interest from Warp-bound daemons, many are driven insane, tainted by Chaos, or even become possessed (examples include the Apex Twins, who were responsible for murdering scores of Imperial Guard Regiments). They are one of the biggest threats the Inquisition has to face, and are one of the threats that the Ordo Hereticus was formed to combat. Most are executed, as the threat they pose is simply too great to deal with or control to any large degree. The Inquisitor Gideon Ravenor was known to be an Alpha Plus psyker, and the Emperor of Mankind would be considered an Alpha Plus, though in fact his power probably cannot be measured by any mortal scale."
Also, Psykers can also cause themselves (and anyone around them) to die, due to being attacked by warp entities.
Let's face it the Sun Crusher was the most stupid of plot hole weapons ever and could not be destroyed , they ultimately stuck it in a black hole to prevent it being used again.
Soo QFT...the EU in general is just silly.
I don't think the Imperium would need psykers to take on the Sun Crusher though. They have Vortex Weapons, which basically create black holes:
The sheer grimdarkness of the 40k universe of twisted entities and highly potent technologies, empires, tactics, etc., stomp anything in the Star Wars universe. WH40k is the essence of grimdark power levels while Star Wars is some kind of space romance.
Kahedron's arguments on AT-AT's manufacturing lines are silly, those things would be the equivalent to walking cardboard boxes going up against Landraiders, Thunderhawks, Stormtalons, Predators, even a tac squad.
Kahedron's argument about the Imperium being unorganized is valid (The Taros campaign was a logistical and political nightmare), however, the power level of any fully dedicated force against the power level of a fully dedicated force from the Imperium of Man would be stomped out of existence.
A more fair/equal argument would be something along the lines of the Tau Empire vs. Galactic Empire. Or even Empire vs. anything else in 40k (except Necrons/Chaos) would be more fair.
The Adeptus Custodes disagrees with you.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adeptus_Custodes
Yeah, but seriously, comparing the measly blasters on snow speeder to the awesome power of a Las Cannon is Laughable...
Again, What would happen to one of the precious AT-ATs if a Dreadnought Punched (Or even fired) one of their legs off? Plus, you're forgetting about Devastator Squads, Las-Cannon Sniper anyone?
Multi-Meltas are also VERY effective in taking out enemy armor, seeing as how Melta weapons are VERY, VERY powerful.
I'd roughly say a Lightsaber to be Str 6 at best... Ap2 maybe? Meltas are Str 8 ap1, and they're more effective at half-range effectively doubling their strength.
Simply put, the imperium has access to better weaponry that just piddly blasters... Plasma Cannons, Meltaguns,
Hell, the Guard's tanks can even carry better firepower than an AT-AT... OR, a Rhino can just drive a Marine Right up to an AT-AT, and he could pop out of the top and just blast em with melta... Last I checked, At-AT's weren't that maneuverable... They're slow, shambling machines. Hell, Warhounds could probably walk faster than them...
Umm, I don't recall there ever being 1,000,000 Jedi in SW... They numbered in the thousands if I recall...
Also, Navigators of the 40K universe know how to avoid such phenomina if possible, the Empire would be walking blindly into one. Imperial Astropaths could detect such phenomina occurring so as to avoid them when exiting the warp. Remember, Imperium ships don't travel through real-space.
As for Warp Incursion and both parties suffering before the powers of Chaos, The Imperium has fought the forces of Chaos for Millenia... They know how to fight against it. The Empire hasn't encountered a foe like Chaos before, there were reports during the heresy when Astartes boarded enemy ships, of entire pieces of the ship being altered by the Warp, Think about a normal corridor on a star destroyer, then, imagine a Demonic Incursion. That part of the ship would never be the same. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if the Empire traveled in the right places, they'd incur Massive Daemonic Incursion and that fleet would be left derelict by virtue of Daemons killing them.
Simply put, The Empire isn't equipped to deal with such things.
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Whlile I agree AT AT's are more capable than Plaguefather makes them out to be, I think AT AT's would still get thrashed facing off against the Imperium.
According to wookiepedia, AT AT's are (as you mentioned) vulnerable at the neck, even to blaster fire. If they are vulnerable to standard issue Star Wars small arms, I assume they are also vulnerable to a bolter at the least.
The underbelly of an AT AT is also unarmored, allowing for 40k universe man-portable heavy weapons to destroy the walker.
While in the ST universe, Luke's lightsaber is a rare weapon, many close combat weapons in 40K are capable of destroying heavy armor, including but not limited to: Thunder Hammers, Chain Fists, and Power Fists. Additionally, entire squads carry melta bombs.
And, we haven't even gotten to superheavy tanks or Titans yet. Whereas the AT AT is the Empire's premiere war machine, The Imperium has much more impressive weapons of war.
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You guys are very busy missing the point. It is true the Imperium has got more impressive weapons of war.
They also have a rather large problem. They have impressive weapons of war that they can't replace.
IF something as simple as a Dreadnought or Land Raider gets destroyed the Imperium no longer has the capabilities of replacing them if they can't be destroyed.
It gets even worse for things like the Super heavies, Titans and ships of any stripe.
The Empire will be able to make good any losses with comparable quality much easier than the Imperium will. To put it into a historical context the Imperium's super tanks are like German Tigers and King Tigers in WW2 absolutely wonderful tanks but if they were disabled they needed to be abandoned as they could not be recovered by anything smaller than another Tiger/King Tiger and as they were so complicated/expensive they were not replaced. The Empire is the American Sherman individually useless, we called them Ronson's after a brand of cigarette lighter lights first time every time the Germans were even crueler called then Tommy cookers. But the Sherman as a lot easier to build and maintain so when they were inevitably destroyed there was another 4 or 5 waiting right behind them.
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I didn't miss that point at all. In fact, I agreed that the Empire has a strong edge in this area, earlier in this thread:
That said, The Imperium isn't incapable of replacing weapons of war: Forge Worlds are very well documented in 40k background material:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forge_World#.UVQ_eBzql6Y
The issue with the Imperium's economy isn't so much that they can't produce (though again, the Empire has the advantage here), its that they have no ingenuity, or understanding of how things work.
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How do you think Marine Chapters constantly replace their broken tanks and Dreadnoughts? The Adeptus Mechanicus are very good at this sort of thing, they just aren't that great on innovating on design... they just kinda build things the way they know how.
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Short answer: They don't.
Long answer: Much like we in the 21st century could not reconstruct things like the roof of Westminister abbey if it was ever damaged/destroyed. The Imperium has lost the secrets of how to build those vehicles.
All the Landraiders/Dreadnought chassis that are currently in existence are relics from the Heresy and give an almost religious significance by the chapters that own them.
The Forge worlds are brilliant at patching things up and building the simple stuff the Guard needs but for Space MArines and the Titan Legions far to much got lost in the Heresy.
Same thing for the Super heavy companies atleast one class of Super heavy tank is no longer in existence because the only Forge world that knew how to produce it was overrun by Orks and over the next couple of centuries the last remaining few were destroyed due to normal attrition.
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The Crafters' Rules Guru
According to the wiki I linked above, that isn't true. It States that Titans are produced on Forgeworlds. Also, if you look up "land raider" it is listed as a "standard template construct" vehicle, meaning the Imperium is able to produce them.
Edit: STC's exist, for example, for Land Raiders, Baneblades, Thunderhawk Gunships, Land Speeders and Rhinos (including variants like the Predator): http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct_(STC)http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct_(STC)
STC's do not exist for Titans, though the Adeptus Mechanicus retains knowledge of how to build them: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan
That said, it can take centuries to build a single Titan. Still, I'd imagine a Warlord Titan (the most common Imperial Titan) would destroy many, many times its own number of AT AT's.
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Umm, no? How about this, we're currently on the Mark V dreadnought chassis, Mark 5... We've come from Contemptor pattern dreadnoughts to the mark 4s all the way up to the MK5... Also, If i'm not mistaken the current Land Raider chassis is in MK4 stage. Have you not seen the first 3 variants?
seriously, please stop saying things like that. Sure, while Titans take forever to build, other things, like Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders, do not. Actually, the Imperium has also started making other Vehicles mass produced beyond the first chapters to use them, It used to be that only the Blood Angels and their successor chapters had access to the Stormraven Gunships, then the Grey Knights got it, now almost any Marine chapter can have them.
The Imperium is constantly finding these STCs. And when they do find them they usually begin mass production.
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You do realize that 40K has its' own Tactical Genius, right? Ursarkar E. Creed, the current Lord Castellan of Cadia...
You'll often find pics of him and something due to Tactical Genius, they're really funny memes.
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hurrrr....
Quoted for Hilarity, or taking a dip into a pool only to find a titan in it, lol
"Pool closed due to Tactical Genius"
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Cadia sounds a lot like Carida.
If EU stuff is fair game, the Empire packs a pretty damned serious punch. The Sun Crusher could send suns into Supernova, within 5-10 minutes (by firing some sort of torpedo into the star). It was also indestructible by most means, though eventually destroyed by being driven into a black hole.
It was also the size of a starfighter, with similar speed and hyperspace capacity.
Yes, we are using the Expanded universe... which I guess means Starkiller is in play?
Without the coordinates, the ship can still take on a sizable fleet of ships and win.
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If that's the case, a psyker can just make the pilot's head explode...
seriously, you wouldn't destroy but one ship with that thing without the Imperium catching on, "Impervious to damage? Oh, let's make his head explode, or send it into the warp..."
Seriously, everyone likes to overplay the Jedi/invincible ship crap but they won't listen to one of the most basic things psykers can do...
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now, I dont know much about the WH40K universe, but that seems a little absurd. and if that IS the case, this whole argument is moot since whoever designed the WH40K universe made EVERYTHING immensely overpowered.
just my .02 cents, there.
note, that I am speaking about the AVERAGE psyker: individual psykers may be able to do so, just as individual Jedi are able to lift a FREAKING STAR DESTROYER, but the average Psyker probably would be incapable of this feat.
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You must not have any knowledge about the 40K universe if this surprises you...
For Psykers to use their powers they have to reach into the Warp and literally stroke the essence of a Warp-being. Think about it, reaching into the Immaterium, and touching an entity of unlimited power, to channel that power into the material realm.
The very nature of Psykers is that their potential is LIMITLESS, sure, they put themselves at risk of being possessed by warp entities, or being killed by the experience, but there's a vast number of psykers in the 40K universe. The Grey Knights are ALL psykers... Each SM Chapter has a number of librarians, The Imperial Guard make effective use of Psykers as well in a more weaponistic profile. (The Grey Knights psycannons are literally powered by TEARS OF THE EMPEROR!)
Not to mention Random Warp Incursions, I don't think The Gods of Chaos would willingly let you take their meal away from them by destroying the Imperium. With no Psyker presence in the material realm, the Forces of Chaos couldn't enter into the physical universe again, So you also have to factor in THEIR powers to stop something like that. (I mention The Daemons of Chaos because they can't be defeated, they can only be sent back into the warp, which, they'll incur into the mortal realm when they please again, somewhere else.) I mean, hell, Tzeentch isn't called the "Changer of Ways" for nothing.
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They were so powerful it's basically silly, impenetrable shields, and the stupidly powerful resonance torpedos which make stars go supernova.
The prototype was just kind of chilling in the Maw because Tarkin dying meant the Maw installation got ignored.
There are other options for the Empire, though, including superlasers mounted on normal Star Destroyers (which even I didn't know about until I looked it up, so you learn something new every day, it seems).
IT's not canon, but many believe he would transcend into this awesome Divine entity which could protect the Imperium forever and eliminate all of its' enemies. except chaos, but then, this divine entity could prevent daemonic incursion on imperial worlds. And since daemons would'nt be able to incur onto imperial worlds, they'd technically be defeated.
But it's not Canon, the Emprah is still alive, I just can't wait until he recovers, that'll be the day the Imperium would REALLY start to push back into the universe. Then all the Xenos would tremble in fear of His awesome might.
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"The psychic power the top four grades represents is immense. A high Delta level can read the minds of all the people in a good-sized town simultaneously, or crush a man to death against a wall in seconds. High-grade psykers are extremely powerful, and not to be taken lightly. Beta grade is the highest level of psychic power that a human can attain and still be considered sane.
An Alpha Plus grade psyker, however, is a being of almost grotesque power. They are described as being able to "turn a man inside-out with a glance", "snap a Battle Titan in half with a flick of the wrist", and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust". They are capable of destroying entire worlds - sometimes unintentionally.
There is some controversy as to whether this description should be taken as an objective description of the Alpha Level of psychic mastery, or if it is intended to be read as Imperial propaganda, and just the exaggerated view of the generally anti-psychic authorities of the Imperium. The Alpha grade psyker Esarhaddon is powerful enough to control hundreds of Imperial citizens as puppets, but he is not described as being powerful enough to destroy a Battle Titan, and is eventually subdued.
However, there are very few Alpha or Αlpha Plus psykers that can be controlled safely, or even at all. Because more powerful psykers attract proportionally more interest from Warp-bound daemons, many are driven insane, tainted by Chaos, or even become possessed (examples include the Apex Twins, who were responsible for murdering scores of Imperial Guard Regiments). They are one of the biggest threats the Inquisition has to face, and are one of the threats that the Ordo Hereticus was formed to combat. Most are executed, as the threat they pose is simply too great to deal with or control to any large degree. The Inquisitor Gideon Ravenor was known to be an Alpha Plus psyker, and the Emperor of Mankind would be considered an Alpha Plus, though in fact his power probably cannot be measured by any mortal scale."
Also, Psykers can also cause themselves (and anyone around them) to die, due to being attacked by warp entities.
EDIT: here: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker
Soo QFT...the EU in general is just silly.
I don't think the Imperium would need psykers to take on the Sun Crusher though. They have Vortex Weapons, which basically create black holes:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vortex_Weapon#.UViYp5PqmKI
And thus proving that the 40k universe is almost as stupidly OP as Star Wars EU.
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Oh wow, I totally forgot about Vortex weapons, I remember the Vortex Grenades from 2nd-3rd edition being especially broken too, lol.
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