Star Wars VS Star Trek

Poll: Which side would win?

Which side would win? - Single Choice

  • Star Wars wins 59.6%
  • Star Trek wins 40.4%
  • #126
    Quote from Irmis
    This really really needs to be made into a movie. It would be so epic. Picard could give one of his fancy speeches to The Emperor.


    Thank robot Jesus for DVDs. That's a three-tape movie.
    Bonus tape developer commentary squeaks in all the scenes of not-monologue for premium buyers.

    Star Wars does have shields. Except TIE Fighters which don't have shield just so The Empire could make more of them...cheaply. Rebels keep bringing that up to show just how much The Empire cares about its soldiers, they aren't even worth a shield. OMG


    They have piloting skills. They can do barrel rolls. Less systems the less energy flying around the less to blow up with your targeting scanners.


    Regarding Romulans in the Dominion war... I got sniped pretty hard considering "Confessions in the Pale Moonlight" is one of my favorite episodes... however,
    I meant more that there's always a point at which Romulans will look to another objective for the good of Romulus. Oh, and the Dominion super power lost at that point.
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  • #127
    I dont think you are understanding what I am saying... the SW universe can literally bring more ships to the fight than is physically possible to destroy before they do massive damage...


    Transphasic Torpedoes, Star Trek's TV-canon god weapon. They aren't 'book-canon' like the indestructible ships or the Yuuzhan Vong. A torpedo that detonates to releases multiple subspace shockwaves in such a way that bypasses shields. Weapons capable of destroying entire borg cubes in a single hit.

    Star Wars may have the fleet sizes, but I'd be hesitant to say that they would win by overwhelming them with numbers alone. The ability for weapons to destroy in Star Trek has far outstripped the ability for defenses to protect. The same is not true for Star Wars. Even though the durability of the ships against direct impact is roughly the same. In an erased timeline, Voyager survived a crash landing onto an icy planet intact while the crew died due to the lack of inertial dampeners. Picard rammed the Enterprise into the Scimitar and both ships survived (albeit heavily damaged). Similarly, the Invisible Hand survived a crash land onto Coruscant.

    And yet, battleships in Star Wars spend hours taking potshots at each other with their turrets and fighter pilots while ships in Star Trek explode like redshirts after 1-2 hits once they lose their shields. Either the weapons in Star Wars suck or Star Trek ships are made of Papier-mâché. Based off the previous examples, though, I'd lean towards Star Wars ships sucking in terms of firepower.

    edit: and I might add, it still only takes a few good hits to cripple a star destroyer.

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  • #128
    Quote from G L J
    Transphasic Torpedoes, Star Trek's TV-canon god weapon. They aren't 'book-canon' like the indestructible ships or the Yuuzhan Vong. A torpedo that detonates to releases multiple subspace shockwaves in such a way that bypasses shields. Weapons capable of destroying entire borg cubes in a single hit.

    Star Wars may have the fleet sizes, but I'd be hesitant to say that they would win by overwhelming them with numbers alone. The ability for weapons to destroy in Star Trek has far outstripped the ability for defenses to protect. The same is not true for Star Wars. Even though the durability of the ships against direct impact is roughly the same. In an erased timeline, Voyager survived a crash landing onto an icy planet intact while the crew died due to the lack of inertial dampeners. Picard rammed the Enterprise into the Scimitar and both ships survived (albeit heavily damaged). Similarly, the Invisible Hand survived a crash land onto Coruscant.

    And yet, battleships in Star Wars spend hours taking potshots at each other with their turrets and fighter pilots while ships in Star Trek explode like redshirts after 1-2 hits once they lose their shields. Either the weapons in Star Wars suck or Star Trek ships are made of Papier-mâché. Based off the previous examples, though, I'd lean towards Star Wars ships sucking in terms of firepower.

    edit: and I might add, it still only takes a few good hits to cripple a star destroyer.


    I'm confused, do the weapons suck so star battles take hours or is the star destroyer made out of paper mache?

    Also, yes i would fully agree that the weapon tech in the ST universe would VASTLY overpower the weapons tech in the SW universe. Especially after reveiwing a good amount of the lore behind those weapons. But there are other elements of the battlefield you have to take into consideration and first and foremost are the fact that the MOMENT Jedi Masters and Sith Lords enter the battlefield, everything changes. They arent just marines who are useless in a floating tin can. These are all beings that have surpassed anything normal. Their piloting skills, infiltration skills, close and ranged combat skills far exceed anything any pilots, weapon officers, or ground troops can acheive from the Star Trek Universe and this isn't even taking into consideration the level of power that some of the more powerful lords and masters had at their finger tips.

    Darth Nihilus could, and accomplished REGULARLY, consume the life essense of entire planets to placate this hunger of the force.

    Luke Skywalker could cummune with the Force so fully and completely he litereally became an Avatar of unstoppable power.

    Galen Marek could bring down a Star Destroyer with only his Telekinetic powers.

    The OG Emperor from The Old Republic was such a powerful source of rage, hatred, evil, and destruction, he had to EXILE HIMSELF. At the age of six he was already applying with his mind enough force to snap necks from a distance.

    Darth Sion found a way to curcimvant Death itself.

    Darth Bane not only knew how to but with the help of other Sith Lords created and detonated the Thought Bomb, capable of rending apart everything Force sensitive on a planet.

    And these are merely a DROP in the vast level of power the Master and Lords of the respective Jedi and Sith order. Also not even including the vast array of powers they have access to, lightning, speed, force waves, sheilds, mind control, force choke (which could surprisingly be used in a large variety of ways). There isn't a force in the entire Star Trek Universe that can compare save for the Q continuum and we've already pretty much agreed that Gods are out of the picture considering Star Wars lore really hasn't mentioned God-like beings.
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  • #129
    Quote from Omfgthetank
    There isn't a force in the entire Star Trek Universe that can compare save for the Q continuum and we've already pretty much agreed that Gods are out of the picture considering Star Wars lore really hasn't mentioned God-like beings.


    Kevin Uxbridge. He's a Douwd, not as God-like as Q, but he still willed a race of 50 billion people out of existence when they killed his human wife. Also (and I feel like a broken record at this point, as I've now mentioned this 3 times), the Krenim Imperium possesses a weapon that can erase entire species from time. Bye-bye Yuuzhan Vong. Not to mention Shinzon's weapon could kill all life on a planet within seconds, and it was completely invisible.

    I'll warrant, the Sith Lords are incredibly conniving. They would be an opponent that people in the Star Trek universe would have a tough time handling, as they seek power for power's sake, which rarely happens in the Star Trek universe. However, similar to the more ambitious figures in Star Trek lore, they're often undone by their own hubris.

    There is one aspect that I'm not clear on that perhaps someone more knowledgable than myself on Star Wars can clear up. What's the travel speed of SW universe ships like at sublight? I ask because, in any on screen depictions, anything that's not a small fighter or shuttle seems to move with all the vigor of a banana slug once it's dropped out of hyperspace. ST ships in general seem to be a LOT faster and more maneuverable at sublight speeds, and are even known to utilize short warp jumps to reposition themselves during battles (see Picard Maneuver).
    Last edited by Xaios: 5/4/2012 4:32:28 PM
  • #130
    Quote from Fluffy_Bunny
    You could drop seal team 6 into Ancient greece and even with infinite ammo by themselves they wouldnt stop the entire Persian Army.


    SEAL Team 6? Yeah, probably not. Then again, SEAL Team 6 is more about counter-terrorism/infiltration, is a small unit and operates without armored support.

    The point does remain, that at some point technology combined with reasonable tactics is insurmountable.

    SEAL Team 6 might not beat the Persians, but to use a better example: I would pit a modern military company (complete with its heavy weapons platoon), with two units for armored support (we'll say two LAV 25 APCs or two IAV Strykers, which I believe is the equivalent number of AT-STs the Imperials had), plus three or four Humvees (similar to the Imperial jetbikes) vs the Persians and Greeks combined.

    And, in that example, the Persians and Greeks are much more capable than Ewoks. The Imperials simply shouldn't have lost that fight, not only because of their huge tech advantage, but: if I had to protect an installation as valuable as the shields protecting the Death Star, I'd have waaay more than a platoon down there, especially if my military resources number in the millions for ships alone.
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  • #131
    Quote from Xaios
    Kevin Uxbridge. He's a Douwd, not as God-like as Q, but he still willed a race of 50 billion people out of existence when they killed his human wife. Also (and I feel like a broken record at this point, as I've now mentioned this 3 times), the Krenim Imperium possesses a weapon that can erase entire species from time. Bye-bye Yuuzhan Vong. Not to mention Shinzon's weapon could kill all life on a planet within seconds, and it was completely invisible.


    Shinzon's weapon was destroyed by three warships, the Krenim need access to a race's homeworld before they can wipe out the entire species (kind of a sticky subject with the Yuuzhan Vong) plus their weapon never really existed anyway, and no one from the SW universe is likely to go about killing Uxbridge's wife.

    There is one aspect that I'm not clear on that perhaps someone more knowledgable than myself on Star Wars can clear up. What's the travel speed of SW universe ships like at sublight? I ask because, in any on screen depictions, anything that's not a small fighter or shuttle seems to move with all the vigor of a banana slug once it's dropped out of hyperspace. ST ships in general seem to be a LOT faster and more maneuverable at sublight speeds, and are even known to utilize short warp jumps to reposition themselves during battles (see Picard Maneuver).


    SW uses its own units of velocity that don't convert very well into real-life. There is one mention of how long it'd take a TIE Interceptor to go between systems at sublight in one of the books (Before The Storm if anyone cares), which could be useful as a basis for deriving velocity relative to the speed of light but I don't have it handy at the moment to check. It makes sense that battles would take place at slower speeds than this, though (they very, very clearly do on-screen). Edit: Also, "maximum speed" in space is kind of a pointless measure, since you basically just keep accelerating as long as you have fuel, even if realistically speaking you still need enough fuel to decelerate. Acceleration would be a better metric to compare.

    Ultimately, maneuverability is relative. Yes, the Defiant can weave back and forth, but we don't often see the Enterprise doing the same thing. Which makes sense, because ships with much higher masses aren't going to be as maneuverable as lower-mass ships unless the former has much, much more powerful propulsion/maneuvering systems. That's just how physics works. You don't often see larger warships in either ST or SW performing incredible feats in the middle of combat, because the idea is they're large enough and powerful enough to take hits rather than being forced to dodge them.

    Although as a bonus, I was trying to find things like relative weapon yield, but finding numbers in the same or at least convertible units is a nightmare (if they exist at all). However, Wookieepedia tells me that an ISD outputs 7.73 yottawatts in power. Acclamator-class ships generate about 200 zettawatts of power and can dedicate 20 zettawatts to shielding. Memory Alpha tells me that ST ships only generate power in the terawatt range. I spent a while trawling for power output, weapon yields, velocities, etc, but in the end power generation was all I found. Still, it's a pretty good argument for SW being far, far more technologically advanced than ST despite not looking the part at first glance (SW ships generally aren't as shiny, there's less technobabble, etc, but their shields actually are about a billion times more powerful than ST has).

    Which reminds me:

    Quote from G L J »
    edit: and I might add, it still only takes a few good hits to cripple a star destroyer.


    From weapons of comparable power that are, ultimately, designed to take down ships as powerful as a Star Destroyer—something I'm not sure ST's weaponry can match. Star Destroyers do often need quite a bit of bombardment to take down, though, usually some kind of heavy, sustained weapons barrage from other capital warships. Compare this to how many times we see ST ships take only a hit or two and explode (not just Federation ships, but watch any mass-combat scene and take a look at how many Klingon, Romulan, Dominion, etc ships just die after a single hit or two).
    Last edited by Teia Rabishu: 5/4/2012 6:33:23 PM
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  • #132
    Quote from Coffee
    And, in that example, the Persians and Greeks are much more capable than Ewoks. The Imperials simply shouldn't have lost that fight, not only because of their huge tech advantage, but: if I had to protect an installation as valuable as the shields protecting the Death Star, I'd have waaay more than a platoon down there, especially if my military resources number in the millions for ships alone.
    Part of what makes that fight so embarrassing is the sheer importance of what the strormtroopers are guarding. This is the one weak point of your planet destroying superweapon, and your first was destroyed due to a security oversight. The Emperor refers to these guards as "a legion of my best troops."
  • #133
    Quote from Zaphrasz
    Part of what makes that fight so embarrassing is the sheer importance of what the strormtroopers are guarding. This is the one weak point of your planet destroying superweapon, and your first was destroyed due to a security oversight. The Emperor refers to these guards as "a legion of my best troops."


    We've long since established that Palpatine was a suicidally overconfident idiot. The same is not true for many of the Empire's other leaders (take a look at the sort of things managed by Thrawn, Pellaeon, Disra, even Isard, not to mention Zsinj, Krennel, and the other ex-Imperial warlords).
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  • #134
    None of this can be determined without technical specifications, energy outputs, etc. For all I know, a photon torpedo is nine times as powerful as a proton torpedo, and 100 turbolasers make six phaser banks look like sticks and stones. Or vice versa. There is no observable point of reference. Also, all this talk about transporting things into space and such is completely dependent on shields being down.

    Star Wars is a universe in which space-faring civilizations have been developing for tens of thousands of years. Some much longer. Any technology that exists in Star Trek that is "better" or "more advanced" would just be fake or magic in Star Wars. Because of their access to the entirety of their galaxy, advanced civilizations in Star Wars are all cutting edge.

    Also, Q would have to, by their nature, also already exist in the Star Wars universe. Just saying.
    Last edited by Raalic: 5/4/2012 6:52:39 PM
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  • #135
    Quote from Teia Rabishu
    Shinzon's weapon was destroyed by three warships, the Krenim need access to a race's homeworld before they can wipe out the entire species (kind of a sticky subject with the Yuuzhan Vong) plus their weapon never really existed anyway, and no one from the SW universe is likely to go about killing Uxbridge's wife.


    I'd say it was destroyed more by a combination Shinzon's arrogance and deus ex machina. Without either of those things, Shinzon would have slaughtered both the Enterprise and the Warbirds. You're correct on the issue with the Krenim weapon, I'll grant.

    As far as no one in the Star Wars universe being likely to kill Uxbridge's wife... really??? The Star Wars universe is filled to the brim with bad people who kill and torture for pleasure. A dark side force user might not be dumb enough as they could probably sense that Uxbridge's power level is, as they say, over 9000, but a jackass moff or military commander would have no idea what they'd be getting themselves into. They wouldn't know what they had wrought until half the Empire was wiped from existence.

    Quote from Teia Rabishu
    SW uses its own units of velocity that don't convert very well into real-life. There is one mention of how long it'd take a TIE Interceptor to go between systems at sublight in one of the books (Before The Storm if anyone cares), which could be useful as a basis for deriving velocity relative to the speed of light but I don't have it handy at the moment to check. It makes sense that battles would take place at slower speeds than this, though (they very, very clearly do on-screen).


    Any mention as to the actual distance between those systems?

    Quote from Teia Rabishu
    Ultimately, maneuverability is relative. Yes, the Defiant can weave back and forth, but we don't often see the Enterprise doing the same thing. Which makes sense, because ships with much higher masses aren't going to be as maneuverable as lower-mass ships unless the former has much, much more powerful propulsion/maneuvering systems. That's just how physics works. You don't often see larger warships in either ST or SW performing incredible feats in the middle of combat, because the idea is they're large enough and powerful enough to take hits rather than being forced to dodge them.


    I'll hand it to you, this paragraph is very well thought out.

    Quote from Teia Rabishu
    Although as a bonus, I was trying to find things like relative weapon yield, but finding numbers in the same or at least convertible units is a nightmare (if they exist at all). However, Wookieepedia tells me that an ISD outputs 7.73 yottawatts in power. Acclamator-class ships generate about 200 zettawatts of power and can dedicate 20 zettawatts to shielding. Memory Alpha tells me that ST ships only generate power in the terawatt range. I spent a while trawling for power output, weapon yields, velocities, etc, but in the end power generation was all I found. Still, it's a pretty good argument for SW being far, far more technologically advanced than ST despite not looking the part at first glance (SW ships generally aren't as shiny, there's less technobabble, etc, but their shields actually are about a billion times more powerful than ST has).


    If those are the pure numbers, then yeah, SW ships definitely have the advantage. Although I have to wonder what they do with all that power, as it's MAGNITUDES higher than Star Trek ships. In Star Trek, a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships was able to crack the mantle on the Founder homeworld. The Enterprise D could drill several kilometers through solid rock with phasers alone in no time flat. Based on those numbers, an ISD's weapons alone should be able to blow up a planet, and yet they clearly can't. This would suggest that SW ships are unbelievably inefficient next to their ST counterparts.

    Quote from Raalic
    Also, Q would have to, by their nature, also already exist in the Star Wars universe. Just saying.


    Not necessarily. The Q come from another dimension, not another universe. It's never been established that they exist in, say, the Mirror Universe, so there's no precedent to say they exist in the SW universe as well. If so, it could then also be perfectly reasoned to assume the Force exists in the ST universe, which it clearly doesn't.

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    There needs to be some kind of scoring system here, to keep track of who has advantages in which areas. For example, Star Wars clearly has a manpower advantage. Star Trek, conversely, has a "god-like being" advantage. I'd be more curious to pit individual aspects of each universe against each other. For example, Imperial Intelligence vs. Changeling Infiltrators. Now THAT would be an interesting discussion.
    Last edited by Xaios: 5/4/2012 7:01:53 PM
  • #136
    I think it's funny how split the nerd community is on this. I saw an article a while back that had this same poll and it had Star Trek getting just over 51% of the votes with a total of over 18,000 votes. I just can't help but wonder how many people are voting objectively and how many are voting for the one they like better.

    Any who, I think where this fight takes place could be significant. Different universes could very well mean different laws of physics. If it's taking place in the SW universe will the ST teleporters even work? If it's taking place in the ST universe will there be a force for the jedi/sith to use at all? Location could be key here.

    When debating things like this does anyone else ever take a step back and think "goddamn I'm a nerd"? Cause I sure do!
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  • #137
    Quote from sirpsychosexy
    I think it's funny how split the nerd community is on this. I saw an article a while back that had this same poll and it had Star Trek getting just over 51% of the votes with a total of over 18,000 votes. I just can't help but wonder how many people are voting objectively and how many are voting for the one they like better.


    Well, duh. :p

    Quote from sirpsychosexy
    Any who, I think where this fight takes place could be significant. Different universes could very well mean different laws of physics. If it's taking place in the SW universe will the ST teleporters even work? If it's taking place in the ST universe will there be a force for the jedi/sith to use at all? Location could be key here.


    I think the first post establishes fairly clearly that the universes have been combined. As a result, I'd expect that anything that works one universe will work in the combined universe.

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  • #138
    This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

    It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.
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  • #139
    Quote from Teia Rabishu
    We've long since established that Palpatine was a suicidally overconfident idiot. The same is not true for many of the Empire's other leaders (take a look at the sort of things managed by Thrawn, Pellaeon, Disra, even Isard, not to mention Zsinj, Krennel, and the other ex-Imperial warlords).


    Except this isn't a reflection of the Emperor's incompetence, it is a reflection of the tactical/military incompetence of Imperial Officers, in this case ones who command a Legion of the Empire's best.

    The Cream of the Empire's crop:

    -apparently did not scout out the planet on which they placed their highly important shield generator.

    -chose to have a single checkpoint into the shield facility.

    -deployed a platoon strength security detail at the facility. The Emperor described a Legion! Where were the rest?

    -were beaten by rocks and sticks, while wearing armor that is supposed to withstand energy weapons. Hmm...maybe the Federation shouldn't worry about a ground war after all...

    -deployed armored units that can be destroyed by logs. Forget the Federation, a modern Infantry Fighting Vehicle would toast an AT-ST. Maybe the Federation shouldn't worry about a ground war after all...

    -made the tactically idiotic decision to give chase to an inferior attacker, abandoning a position of tactical superiority to do so. You know, all that Imperial Platoon needed to do was stay put, dig in and shoot away.

    Quote from Fluffy_Bunny
    This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

    It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.


    Stardestroyer.net? An article that talks about how "we" beat the Federation? That's like Sarah Palin citing fox news as an objective news source.
    Last edited by Coffee: 5/5/2012 7:44:35 AM
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  • #140
    I would like too point out the Economic advantage ST has. SW still uses the VERY outdated capitalistic approach, where as ST is in the whole "Ideal Communism" thing. Particularity with Borg/Federation. They have alot more potential for massive output economically over the long hall. War is expensive not so much for a nation that has evolved past the need for money.

    With the exception of anti matter ALL other physical resources are NOT required with replicators. This amounts to ST being able to theoreticly (assuming the moral thing isn't an issue) totaly go scorched earth combat on them. Killing the SW universe on the bases that they DO need stuff As they invade they basicly burn them selves out.
    Last edited by draftguy2: 5/5/2012 1:07:15 AM
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  • #141
    Quote from Fluffy_Bunny
    This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

    It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.
    This dude sounds delusional, and a "wee" bit partisan.

    Stardestroyer.net is all about the Star Wars.
  • #142
    We haven't compared characters yet!!! So let's do that. I'll cite the movies for star wars, and TNG for star trek. Well leave out all of the invincible ships/invincible Yuzan Crom/Sith planet suckers and Avatar Luke. No books, straight up tv/movies. It'll be a vs. arrangement. Here we go:

    Picard vs. Obi Wan
    Straight up fight? Intriguing. One is a Jedi master, the other is a starfleet legend. Obi has Jean-Luc pretty dead to rights here. If its a fistfight, Kenobi. Sword fight, Kenobi. Ship to ship? Depends. If you take into account that moronic article about star wars power output, Obi would most likely be able to plug in a light bulb, shine it on the Enterprise, and immediately disintegrate it. A more adult version would concern piloting, tactics, etc. This i give to Picard. I also give him the edge in diplomacy, as we all know how bad Obi and that hippy Qui-Gon bungled the talks with the trade federation. Overall, I call it too close to call.

    Kirk vs Solo
    Kirk kicks Solo's teeth down his throat. There is no concievable way I see Solo winning this. Kirk is a pilot, a tactician, and to be straight up honest, a goddam cold blooded murderer. Solo is a great pilot, yeah no doubt. But the man is also a coward and a smuggler. That's how he's managed to stay alive so long. Fistfight? Kirk. Drinking contest? Kirk. See who could get the most women? Kirk. Piloting? Solo. Shooting, meh, close. Escape artist? Also close. In the end, sorry, it's Kirk taking it home.

    Data vs C3PO/R2D2
    Yeah, it's a handycap match. Two on one. R2 "I'm the Shell to a Possibly Long Dead Dwarf Carcass" D2 and "The Nancy Droid We All Avoid" C3PO. This is exactly how this fight breaks down:
    *R2D2/C3PO walk up to Data. Data buries both of them in unmarked scrap heaps 0.68 seconds later.* Data takes it.

    Luke vs Riker
    No contest. Luke pulls Riker's stomach out through his anus and jettisons his fat corpse into space. Easy peasy.

    Worf vs Chewy
    This is a bloodbath. And again, very close. It ends in either the classic wookie arm stretch, where Chewy "disarms" Worf and beats him to death with his own appendages, or Worf decides to show up to a fight for once and disembowels Chewy before uttering a vicious Klingon war cry and making passionate love to the remains. Really, it's all about ceremony, not attraction. Too close to call.

    Leia vs Kira
    Ok. I could throw Troi in here, and for the sake of fairness, I will do an alternate version. If its Kyra Nerise, imagine your favorite late night Cinemax soft core, just more violent and ending in someone's death instead of lonely women coming together because no one has a deck of cards and they're all innocent. If its Kyra, it's over fast.
    If its Troi, I could see Leia pulling it out. She's a hard chick and all, but Kyra is a lifelong soldier, been through a lot worse than Leia (bla bla her planet blew up etc etc, doesn't make her a better fighter.) Shed probably absolutely own Troi. I left out Tasha Yar because Leia might have a SLIM chance against Kyra, but Tasha....well, we all know how that would go down. And yeah, most of us would pay to see it. Star Trek.

    Star Trek takes it by the slimmest of margins.
    Last edited by Enizzle: 5/5/2012 11:30:18 AM
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  • #143
    Quote from Xaios
    You say that like being a nerd is something to be ashamed of.


    No no no. I proudly display my nerdieness like a badge of honor!
    This new mtgsalvation sucks Question those who don't question authority.
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  • #144
    Picard would simply use his immense powers of speech-craft to convince Obiwan to side with the Federation. It's like a Jedi Mind Trick that even a Toydarian isn't immune to. Wink

    How about Benjamin Sisko versus Lando Calrissian? Now THAT would be a good fight.
  • #145
    Sisko would pimpslap Lando's ass back to Bespin.
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  • #146
    Quote from Enizzle
    Sisko would pimpslap Lando's ass back to Bespin.


    Yep, no contest. Since we're basing character battles off of TV movies, we see that Lando has a conscience, but he's weak-willed enough to almost do the wrong thing.

    Sisko has tougher moral fiber, and just does what he sets out to do. And God help Lando if Sisko gives him his baseball...
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  • #147
    Quote from Xaios
    I'd say it was destroyed more by a combination Shinzon's arrogance and deus ex machina. Without either of those things, Shinzon would have slaughtered both the Enterprise and the Warbirds.


    And in the SW universe they have both sensors that can detect cloaked vessels, as well as planetary shields. The latter is an interesting case because the Rebels at Hoth had a small-scale shield that could repel "any bombardment" by the Executor and its fleet. A more plausible interpretation of that line was that any force required to break the shield would have caused unwanted damage to the surrounding area, but consider also that the combined Rebel fleet needed to sneak in a commando team to take down Coruscant's planetary shield before they could even think of taking it, because they couldn't get through it even if they did take down the rest of the fleet.

    Any mention as to the actual distance between those systems?


    Potentially, but like I said, I don't have the book handy to flip through.

    If those are the pure numbers, then yeah, SW ships definitely have the advantage. Although I have to wonder what they do with all that power, as it's MAGNITUDES higher than Star Trek ships. In Star Trek, a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian ships was able to crack the mantle on the Founder homeworld. The Enterprise D could drill several kilometers through solid rock with phasers alone in no time flat. Based on those numbers, an ISD's weapons alone should be able to blow up a planet, and yet they clearly can't. This would suggest that SW ships are unbelievably inefficient next to their ST counterparts.


    Well, there's a difference between maximum output and what you're likely to use in a fight. When you're trying to blow ships up in the middle of space, sure, you go all-out. When you're trying to bombard a planet you'd rather take intact, you dial it down so you don't destroy it. There does exist an Imperial general order called Base Delta Zero where a single Star Destroyer depopulates an entire planet (reaching down through most of the crust to hit underground facilities, IIRC) and renders it uninhabitable, but it's rarely done because, in military terms, destroying potential resources is wasteful and should only be done as a last resort.

    For example, Imperial Intelligence vs. Changeling Infiltrators. Now THAT would be an interesting discussion.


    The Empire even has a similar kind of virus to Section 31's modified Quickening, in their case the Krytos virus, engineered to kill nonhuman races.

    Quote from Fluffy_Bunny
    This guy has a pretty good description of differences between the two.

    http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

    It includes a comparison of weapon power output as well.


    I actually knew about that site beforehand, but I intentionally didn't include it because he writes it "in character" rather than objectively. His understanding of the science behind each series is far superior to my own, and I've used some of his concepts in this thread, but the site itself probably isn't that useful (even if I do agree that the actual STvSW battle is too one-sided to consider seriously).

    Quote from Enizzle »
    A more adult version would concern piloting, tactics, etc. This i give to Picard.


    Picard might have sharp senses and a keen intellect, but Obi-Wan has the Force going for him. That gives him a significant advantage because suddenly he's privy to so much more information than Picard, including some degree of precognition.

    See who could get the most women? Kirk.


    See who can have the more stable long-term relationship and more surviving kids? Solo.

    Also gambling goes to solo as well. The dude once won a planet in a card game. Let's see Kirk manage something like that.

    Leia vs Kira


    Leia, as in Luke's brother, as in a Jedi, versus a seasoned terrorist. No doubt that it's not a one-sided battle (Mara Jade managed to subdue Luke despite not having her Force powers at the time), but again, I have a hard time imagining Kira ever beating a Jedi (even a relatively inexperienced one) in a straight-up fight.

    On that note, I'd actually say Mara Jade would be the more appropriate counterpart to Kira (in terms of being each universe's badass Action Girl and all). Which is kind of no contest since the Emperor's Hand at any point in the timeline could deal with people like Kira without even breaking a sweat.

    Also Kira's "been through a lot worse than Leia"? One of Leia's sons died fighting a war they didn't even know if they could win, and her other son became Darth Caedus. Not to mention all the other crap she's been through over the years—Kira's never had to deal with being thrown out of her own government (there's that one episode where Kai Winn takes over and Kira has to go renegade but it was a one-episode affair and quickly resolved).

    Quote from draftguy2 »
    This amounts to ST being able to theoreticly (assuming the moral thing isn't an issue) totaly go scorched earth combat on them. Killing the SW universe on the bases that they DO need stuff As they invade they basicly burn them selves out.


    A Federation with maybe a few hundred systems versus an Empire with millions of systems and the logistical ability to maintain itself? Yeah, let me know how that one works out. Given that the Federation was running itself out of resources just fighting the Dominion, they don't have the capability to go total war on an empire that's ten thousand times their size.

    Quote from Coffee »
    Sisko has tougher moral fiber, and just does what he sets out to do.


    Like deploy chemical weapons on civilians just because one ex-military terrorist pissed him off.

    Though I guess that just means Sisko is the renegade compared to Picard's paragon.
    "Being a Hero has a lot of perks, you know. You get the respect of the people, cheap rates at inns, and you can even walk into people's houses and take stuff!"

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  • #148
    From a "cast" stand point, DS9 and Star Wars the original trilogy were probably the peak. If you were to compare say Enterprise with the last trilogy I'd tend to agree. The Clone Wars series fluctuates from the few episodes I've seen of it, and frankly the Clones are some of the more interesting characters. There was supposed to be a series about Bobba Fett that was live action, which if it ever gets filmed or aired may very well be comparable to Star Trek. However, thus far both in their long runs are ebb and flow and each have ended.

    What I will say is that my favorite character Garrak is better than Han Solo.


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  • #149
    Quote from Teia Rabishu

    Like deploy chemical weapons on civilians just because one ex-military terrorist pissed him off.

    Though I guess that just means Sisko is the renegade compared to Picard's paragon.


    That's a fair point, though honestly that episode made me appreciate Sisko as a character even more, in that he obviously has very real, human weaknesses. And, while "moral" isn't a word I'd apply to that situation, it does highlight even more why Lando would lose. The latter part of my statement, that Sisko does what he sets out to do, still stands.

    And nice Mass Effect reference Wink
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  • #150
    Like I said in my post, I was going movie/tv series. In the movies, Leia is pretty soft. Kyra takes her. I did give Obi the slight edge overall, but specifically in single combat.

    And first of all, I've noticed (and by all means, correct me if I'm wrong here) that Teia, who I've spent most of this thread responding to, hasn't given a single inch to ST. Again, if I'm wrong, correct me, but that reeks of rabid fanboy support with no actual logical backup.

    I loved the one guy who mentioned that if star destroyers have this awesome weapons power, why don't they just blow up planets themselves. Thank you for the salient point, dude. Because if that doesn't nail home a point, what does? Why build a death star if you have a fleet of potentially millions of planet destroying ships? What could possibly be the motivation to build a space station that can't maneuver at all just to blow up planets, when you have an entire navy that'd do the same exact thing? Yeah, maybe the star destroyers do dial down power to take a planet whole, but then why not just dispatch what, according to power output levels (which is a JOKE) maybe 3 star destroyers to murder Alderaan? Why jump through so many unnecessary hoops to build this giant monstrosity that effectively serves no real purpose? Go ahead and quote that to respond that it's a resupply depot, or a troop transport, or a seat of power, any of those things. But we all know that won't fly as SSD are the same thing.

    And I think that's the heart of the argument here. Even if you take into account that buffoon's article (again, don't, it's a complete farce) you gotta realize two very important things. One, it's almost laughable the amounts of power claimed to reside in the SW universe, when basic logic would assume that, if they had planet killing capabilities in star destroyers, they wouldn't need a death star. And two, ST is based on AT LEAST reasonable technological advances. Once again, where does logic and the suspension of disbelief come into play here? How many glaring illogical and nonsensical things have to be pointed out?

    Teddy Bears overrunning a heavily defended shield generator?
    Constructing a giant unnecessary planet killer when you supposedly have an entire fleet of perfectly good ones at hand?
    Using the force alone to destroy entire planets/ships?
    The complete dearth (heh heh) of imperial competence?

    Honestly? This boils down to science vs fantasy. Yeah, it's a completely unnecessary and strange argument. But for christs sake, if we're gonna discuss the science aspect of it, then use real science. Real logic. Real argument. This whole "The empire has SUPER DUPER amounts of energy and we could do such-and-such and not blink an eye cause were ÜBER!!!" is a complete and total stretch that requires intelligent people to argue fanboyism and not reality.

    And we BOTH know Kirk beats Solo. That's the only sure thing in this debate.
    Last edited by Enizzle: 5/5/2012 6:48:12 PM
    "Some say that time is cyclical and that history inevitably repeats. My will is my own. I won't bow to fate."



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