Except that they're not equal. This isn't a case of theorycraft or anything, but a result of what we can see onscreen in both series. I showed earlier in this thread that Star Wars ships are several thousand times faster than Star Trek ships, for example. Just because SW's technology doesn't look as advanced doesn't mean that it's not as advanced—the reactor of the common ISD is described in canon as being equal to a miniature star, a level of power output ST is nowhere close to matching. They might not have transporters or replicators, but they have the ability to fly faster, hit harder, and maintain logistics across much greater regions of space. There's every reason to believe SW is far more technically advanced, despite the lack of transporters/replicators/etc.
Furthermore, if bad weather can block transporters, SW shields definitely can, even if they're called "deflector shields" and don't work in the exact same way.
This is why pretty much every ship/station that gets boarded beams the intruders off the ship instead of getting security teams to repel them.
Oh wait. That's just you playing up ST technology as being far more powerful than it's ever shown in canon.
Do you even know what the Yuuzhan Vong are? They're basically just Species 8472 but coming from another galaxy instead of "fluidic space." Kind of an unholy Protoss-Zerg combination in ideology. There's absolutely no reason to exclude them if you're going to include the Borg.
If you want to go into percents, the entire Federation/Klingons/Romulans/etc combine to have less than one percent of the Empire alone, being outnumbered thousands to one by the Imperial navy—the Alpha Quadrant powers measure their ships by the thousands, but the Empire measures its ships by the millions. Even if you bring the Dominion into it, the ST universe is massively outnumbered and outgunned.
Which, amusingly, would probably attempt to stop any time-based warfare.
We are assumeing a compleatly united universal front against the other as such morals are gone and lets do some of that awsome that was a good idea but stupied morals said we should's is TOTALY in. Not only this but they have multiple TIME LINES (as shown in several of the shows, like Next generation/Voyager) Showing the multiple universe theory when their was a small fracture in time space.Or they were fixing up someone elses mess. While this theoreticly means that as long as its theoretically possable for star trek to win it will win in one of them, Then go back in time to help the ones that didn't(taking with them literally copys of all armys from other times lines.)
We are assumeing a compleatly united universal front against the other as such morals are gone and lets do some of that awsome that was a good idea but stupied morals said we should's is TOTALY in. Not only this but they have multiple TIME LINES (as shown in several of the shows, like Next generation/Voyager) Showing the multiple universe theory when their was a small fracture in time space.Or they were fixing up someone elses mess. While this theoreticly means that as long as its theoretically possable for star trek to win it will win in one of them, Then go back in time to help the ones that didn't(taking with them literally copys of all armys from other times lines.)
If the Federation wouldn't engage in time travel to fight the Dominion or the Borg (the former required a deus ex machina to beat, and the latter explicitly attempted the time travel victory themselves), there's no reason to assume they'd do so just to fight the Empire + New Republic + Yuuzhan Vong + random crap like the Chiss Ascendency, Empire of the Hand, Hapes Consortium, Duskhan League, etc. Basically I'm assuming that if something's impossible or never done in canon, it's not going to start happening in this conflict.
Also the whole "various timelines help each other win" thing is absurd and nothing like this is ever suggested to be so much as possible in the show. At worst the mirror universe steals stuff and people from the main universe.
Except that they're not equal. This isn't a case of theorycraft or anything, but a result of what we can see onscreen in both series. I showed earlier in this thread that Star Wars ships are several thousand times faster than Star Trek ships, for example. Just because SW's technology doesn't look as advanced doesn't mean that it's not as advanced—the reactor of the common ISD is described in canon as being equal to a miniature star, a level of power output ST is nowhere close to matching. They might not have transporters or replicators, but they have the ability to fly faster, hit harder, and maintain logistics across much greater regions of space. There's every reason to believe SW is far more technically advanced, despite the lack of transporters/replicators/etc.
Actually, Romulan D'Deridex class Warbirds are powered by quantum singularities (black holes). Additionally, the crew of Voyager figured out how to stabilize Omega particles, which are far, far more powerful than any other known power source. If a single molecule becomes unstable, it's destruction can literally affect the fabric of space in a whole sector.
Furthermore, if bad weather can block transporters, SW shields definitely can, even if they're called "deflector shields" and don't work in the exact same way.
Just so we're clear on our canon information, it's not simply "bad weather" or "caves" in general that can negatively affect transporters. Said weather or caves have to have a very specific chemical composition. So no, we're now back to SW deflectors being useless against transporters.
This is why pretty much every ship/station that gets boarded beams the intruders off the ship instead of getting security teams to repel them.
Oh wait. That's just you playing up ST technology as being far more powerful than it's ever shown in canon.
It doesn't get used that way because the Federation frowns on such tactics. That doesn't mean they won't use them if the circumstances are dire enough. They only reason they didn't use it in Star Trek: First Contact was because by the time they knew about the Borg presence (which was delayed because their sensors were disabled as a side effect of passing through the time rift), the Borg had already taken control of the system.
Do you even know what the Yuuzhan Vong are? They're basically just Species 8472 but coming from another galaxy instead of "fluidic space." Kind of an unholy Protoss-Zerg combination in ideology. There's absolutely no reason to exclude them if you're going to include the Borg.
Fair enough, but I'd say the Yuuzhan Vong and Species 8472 (aka Undine) basically cancel each other out then.
If you want to go into percents, the entire Federation/Klingons/Romulans/etc combine to have less than one percent of the Empire alone, being outnumbered thousands to one by the Imperial navy—the Alpha Quadrant powers measure their ships by the thousands, but the Empire measures its ships by the millions. Even if you bring the Dominion into it, the ST universe is massively outnumbered and outgunned.
True, but that's only guaranteed to help on the ground. In space is another story. The question comes down to whether or not you believe the SW navy has ANY sort of a shot against the fleets of the ST universe, which I believe they don't, as SW has repeatedly demonstrated almost zero tactical knowledge in space combat beyond ZERG RUSH, which isn't really a problem. They might as well be throwing water balloons given how fragile SW ships seem to be.
Which, amusingly, would probably attempt to stop any time-based warfare.
Maybe, maybe not. It all comes down to how high the stakes are. Plus, it presents a very interesting argument for the temporal mechanics side of things. If the future Federation doesn't interfere, it means that they're still there in the future waiting, which means the Federation wins. If they do interfere, they basically have an infinite number of turns to get it right, which means eventually the Federation wins.
Alright. First of all, the whole "Don't transport bad guys into space" thing isn't because they can't. Come on, let's use some common sense here. It's because star trek has morals and ethics. They CAN, but they DON'T. It's a blatant and cold blooded misuse of technology. Now, if we're in a galactic smack down that has repercussions throughout the known universe.....yeah, they'll do it.
Second, I don't give a rats ass who the Yuzan Valyrians are. You're the one who keeps ranting about their super army, and how they'd wipe out the fed, and they're the best thing since sliced cheese etc etc. My only point is, I'm going at it from a Federation/Klingon/Romulan alliance vs Empire/Rebellion alliance. I didn't bring in Species 8472, I purposely left out the Borg, and have made no mention of Q. So if you want to bring in the Yoozan Bong, I'll bring in the Observers, the Borg, the Observers, Q, the Breen, Jem Hadar, Species 8472, Kazon, Remans, etc etc etc. and no, the Yoozan Bling AREN'T the big bad in the smack down, sorry. Q would poof those bad boys right out of existence.
Third, what's all this bs about your super powered, "My cannon is actually a star" crap? Please. We've gone from the point where a bunch of nerds were arguing technology/strategy/possible outcomes, to you coming in here and arguing fanboyism. I've given plenty of ground. Sure there's a possibility your deflector shields might interfere with transport tech. Jesus, I've even told the SW people that their best bet would be planetary invasions. So if you want to argue why yours would totally win because they're so kewl, I'm not interested. I'm arguing what I've seen, and what we both know. Star Trek has the tech.
Now. Back to the topic at hand. You can have all the numbers in the universe at your disposal. Hell, I'll give it to you for free. Let's say you outnumber us by 100 to one. Heck, make it 500. The fact of the matter is, you guys are so ineptly led, so completely mastered by total intergalactic rubes, that I'd take those odds any day. If a hastily cobbled up rabble of a rebellion led by an ignorant farmboy with incestuous intentions on his sister can smoke the empire, I'm POSITIVE the Fed can.
So. If you want to argue logically, we can. If you want to get into a "Mine is cooler than yours cause I say it is" thing, I'm not interested.
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If the Federation wouldn't engage in time travel to fight the Dominion or the Borg (the former required a deus ex machina to beat, and the latter explicitly attempted the time travel victory themselves), there's no reason to assume they'd do so just to fight the Empire + New Republic + Yuuzhan Vong + random crap like the Chiss Ascendency, Empire of the Hand, Hapes Consortium, Duskhan League, etc. Basically I'm assuming that if something's impossible or never done in canon, it's not going to start happening in this conflict.
Also the whole "various timelines help each other win" thing is absurd and nothing like this is ever suggested to be so much as possible in the show. At worst the mirror universe steals stuff and people from the main universe.
Ahh Borg have temperal Sheilding (and have passed that tech on to Voyager via 7 of 9 which is how they survived the whole "this weapon wipes out everything from history that interacted with this object weapon) which might explain why they never used it against the borg. In Next Generation when the time rift sucked in Enterprises from Thousands of time lines Reiker (one of the alternate time line ones) begged the other enterprises to do just that too help them fight off the borg in their time line. So I would say its QUITE possible (with a Reiker/Data saying it is possible) Further more if they felt their entire universe was at threat (which consider you made warring races who basicly exsist almost excusively TOO war all fight under a single banner seems quite likely) I could totaly see them stepping in.
Additionally, the crew of Voyager figured out how to stabilize Omega particles, which are far, far more powerful than any other known power source. If a single molecule becomes unstable, it's destruction can literally affect the fabric of space in a whole sector.
They only stabilized Omega temporarily. Not long enough to use for anything viable.
Also just for a bit of comparison, the Romulans might use miniature quantum singularities for zero-point power, but the Yuuzhan Vong use them for shields.
Just so we're clear on our canon information, it's not simply "bad weather" or "caves" in general that can negatively affect transporters. Said weather or caves have to have a very specific chemical composition. So no, we're now back to SW deflectors being useless against transporters.
Magnetic shields (such as what Rura Penthe employed) can also block transporters, and movie dialogue confirms that SW ships have that much, in addition to their normal shields that would block transporters on their own. Electromagnetic and ion interference regularly block transporters as well. Again, you massively overstate how effective they are, as if they're some kind of god technology.
It doesn't get used that way because the Federation frowns on such tactics. That doesn't mean they won't use them if the circumstances are dire enough.
Beaming intruders into holding areas is perfectly within the Federation's accepted tactics. They've also vented intruders into space on numerous occasions, so there's clearly no conceptual prohibition against beaming them into space. Their technology is just too limited to manage it—look at all the time they need pattern enhancers (including those found in combadges) just to establish a lock outside combat situations. In combat, well, they'd totally use the transporters for tactical purposes if they could, but they clearly can't.
Fair enough, but I'd say the Yuuzhan Vong and Species 8472 (aka Undine) basically cancel each other out then.
Species 8472 was beaten very easily with modified nanoprobes. The New Republic created a similar bioweapon for use against the Yuuzhan Vong, and even that proved ineffective in ending the war.
True, but that's only guaranteed to help on the ground. In space is another story. The question comes down to whether or not you believe the SW navy has ANY sort of a shot against the fleets of the ST universe, which I believe they don't, as SW has repeatedly demonstrated almost zero tactical knowledge in space combat beyond ZERG RUSH, which isn't really a problem. They might as well be throwing water balloons given how fragile SW ships seem to be.
ST is the one without any kind of tactical ability. Their combat engagements tended towards "throw walls of fleets at each other and see who wins," and Federation ships were seen blowing up after receiving trivially few hits during the Dominion War. At the very least SW can pull off fleet tactics without embarrassing themselves, as well as deploying fighter screens and using environment (nearby planets, asteroids, etc) to their advantage.
Maybe, maybe not. It all comes down to how high the stakes are.
Multiple times, the stakes were "the survival of our very species" and it wasn't enough to prompt them to do it. They're not going to do it in this conflict just because their survival is at stake.
Also here's a thought: The Borg themselves only tried going back in time once. They had the resources to keep at it until they won, but they didn't. Furthermore, Braxton only had so many shots at stopping alternate himself with Seven. Time travel isn't the unbeatable, easy-to-use strategy you're pretending it is. It's shown repeatedly to be kludgy, difficult to employ, and you only get limited shots with limited resources.
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In Next Generation when the time rift sucked in Enterprises from Thousands of time lines Reiker (one of the alternate time line ones) begged the other enterprises to do just that too help them fight off the borg in their time line. So I would say its QUITE possible (with a Reiker/Data saying it is possible)
So you're taking the unsubstantiated rantings of a madman as being concrete? Nothing indicates that they could have gone back and helped Crazy Riker even if they wanted to.
Also the temporal shield thing still needed them to find and analyze that undetonated chroniton torpedo. It wasn't a case of Seven going "oh snap I know how to block this."
Also... if you want to argue moral limits being why they never did certain things. I am sure there are examples of Jedi doing things that would make it quite possible for Luke to just crush every ship that gets close to his with the force... In one book Luke rebuilds an ancient temple using the force which to me seems like a harder task than ripping a small hole in a ship. Why dont the jedi normally do this? because they see it as an abuse of power... so if we are ignoring that I guess Luke wins every conflict by himself.
I showed earlier in this thread that Star Wars ships are several thousand times faster than Star Trek ships, for example.
Star Wars ships dont interact with Normal space from hyperspace, and dont fire weapons from hyperspace. They have warmup to go to hyperspace. They do not have capability of hitting FTL targets AT ALL. Practically speaking, even though they traverse great distances with hyperdrive, they basically "wind up" for a brief period, then disapper from normal space. When they reappear they are also vulnerable.
Even if you argue that subspace and hyperspace are different, the SW universe has no technology that can warp into subspace. All SW battles happen at impulse speeds.
As for the "indestructible" ship that destroys stars that is in some stupid EU novel, as a Star Wars fan, I'd be EMBARRASSED to include that as part of canon. Metaphysical claims about the nature of technology that is "indestructible" like that are kind of ridiculous, and when brought up in some expanded **** novel, best to ignore it.
Even if you argue that subspace and hyperspace are different, the SW universe has no technology that can warp into subspace. All SW battles happen at impulse speeds.
As do most ST battles. Take a look at how many battles against the Borg (Wolf 359, Sector 001, etc), the Dominion, the Klingons, the Romulans, any enemy are fought at sublight speed. They'll even intentionally drop out of warp specifically to fight a warp-capable enemy, so clearly there's an advantage to sublight combat. Just because ST ships can fight at FTL speeds doesn't mean they will. Also, even stationary targets like space stations and planets are fought at sublight. "FTL combat automatically wins the war against non-FTL-combat-capable targets" isn't even true in the ST universe, so it's not going to be true in the STvSW universe.
Although hyperspace-based attacks do kind of exist, in that there's canon precedent for flying a ship in hyperspace at a planetary target and more or less wrecking the planet. The Federation doesn't even have planetary shield technology to prevent that kind of attack from being employed against them.
As for the "indestructible" ship that destroys stars that is in some stupid EU novel, as a Star Wars fan, I'd be EMBARRASSED to include that as part of canon. Metaphysical claims about the nature of technology that is "indestructible" like that are kind of ridiculous, and when brought up in some expanded **** novel, best to ignore it.
You say this like I'm somehow happy that I'm having to use it or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatever else. Even I have my limits (I'm not going to include Waru in anything serious), but as far as "universe vs universe" goes, I'm including any relevant tech because fair is fair according to how canon operates. Lucasfilm declares the SW novels canon, so they're included. Paramount declares the ST novels non-canon, so they're not included. Fair's fair.
Ahem. Lol meaning, within the context of this debate, I find that laughable at best...?
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If fair is fair, then Star Trek is perfectly within rights to use Q as part of the debate. Or is that still unfair, as the OP described it? Because Q is definitely canon.
If fair is fair, then Star Trek is perfectly within rights to use Q as part of the debate. Or is that still unfair, as the OP described it? Because Q is definitely canon.
Canonicity has nothing to do with keeping gods/godlike beings out of the scenario. If there were some SW equivalent to Q who only existed in the SW EU, I'd keep that out as well.
Canonicity has nothing to do with keeping gods/godlike beings out of the scenario. If there were some SW equivalent to Q who only existed in the SW EU, I'd keep that out as well.
Sorry, but "indestructible ship" falls into the same metaphysical absolutism as "immovable rocks" and "irresistible force". Q is far less God like than categorically "indestructible" anything. Though I don't think the ST universe needs Q to defeat the SW universe, which is a sprawling and disorganized.
As for the FTL vs non FTL combat, the non FTL side has to at least have weapons that can hit objects that are not in normal space. SW universe certainly has no ability to even detect objects in subspace, let alone hit them. Especially since you insist subspace is different from hyperspace.
In ST universe, those ships and ground stations all have sensors that can all DETECT FTL ships in subspace. So non-warp ships know where they are.
SW ships do not have capability to even see an ST ship in warp, so it is essentially cloaked.
Of course the fact that SW ships can traverse greater distances much faster (i take your word for it) presents some serious weirdness to the war overall.
I see a war breaking down into the good SW and ST factions uniting against the emperor anyway, since it's so hard to definitively pin each other's fleet down, and it will just drag on & on.
This really really needs to be made into a movie. It would be so epic. Picard could give one of his fancy speeches to The Emperor.
I think I'd say nobody wins on account that the destruction caused by the war would leave all sides screwed.
Star Wars does have shields. Except TIE Fighters which don't have shield just so The Empire could make more of them...cheaply. Rebels keep bringing that up to show just how much The Empire cares about its soldiers, they aren't even worth a shield.
I'm with dcartist, including ships made of invincibility and magic life energy while proclaiming the more fantastic elements of Star Trek don't count is inconsistent.
People arguing for the technical superiority of Star Wars strike me as people who didn't watch Star Wars. It's kind of a theme that, no matter how advanced you are, no matter how big your gun is, "human" spirit and the desire to be free and good can and will overtake you. Planet destroyers are beaten by farm boys. Monks defeat death robots. Teddy bears topple an empire. If anything, that would be their biggest advantage.
Star Trek cannon is like 25 years of story telling. Next Generation -> DS9 -> Voyager -> Enterprise. People know what Federation/Klingon/Romulans can do.
Star Wars is 6 movies and it doesn't really show off what an Imperial Star Destroyer can do.
Sorry, but "indestructible ship" falls into the same metaphysical absolutism as "immovable rocks" and "irresistible force". Q is far less God like than categorically "indestructible" anything. Though I don't think the ST universe needs Q to defeat the SW universe, which is a sprawling and disorganized.
As for the FTL vs non FTL combat, the non FTL side has to at least have weapons that can hit objects that are not in normal space. SW universe certainly has no ability to even detect objects in subspace, let alone hit them. Especially since you insist subspace is different from hyperspace.
In ST universe, those ships and ground stations all have sensors that can all DETECT FTL ships in subspace. So non-warp ships know where they are.
SW ships do not have capability to even see an ST ship in warp, so it is essentially cloaked.
Of course the fact that SW ships can traverse greater distances much faster (i take your word for it) presents some serious weirdness to the war overall.
I see a war breaking down into the good SW and ST factions uniting against the emperor anyway, since it's so hard to definitively pin each other's fleet down, and it will just drag on & on.
You are seriously insisting on the fact that because we can hit targets in Hyperspace, that we couldn't POSSIBLY come up with the tech or already have the tech but no longer need it since we don't bother moving at subspace speeds, that we could not hit targets moving at subspace speeds?
Also Q wasn't really identified as being a normal being other then the few times he mentions that one day the Federation COULD be like them. For all intents and purposes they have reached God status. Also it wasn't an indestructible ship, it was destroyed in a black hole, which you guys are pretty adament in reminding me you have plenty of.
Also I would like to debate the caliber of people both universes would have. Aside from the difficulty of having the Sith and the Jedi working together, if they did, the result would be unlike anything the universe has ever seen. Some of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in the galaxy were a combination of ideals and beliefs from both sides. Now we are combining both of them from periods of time when they were at the height of their power?
The Jedi may be peace loving pansies but they have shown in multiple occasions a near merciless zeal when defending the innocent. The Sith have shown thousands of times the level of depravity they have to be borderline obsence.
That isn't even including the number of Generals, Admirals, and Moffs that have been considered some of the most intelligent and capable leaders of their time. This senseless base that the Republic and the Empire are unorganized and incompentant is nothing more but senseless. If you refer to the movies as proof of that, those were events of the weak fighting to the bitter end and with bravery, hope, and an unyeilding will you can defeat any enemy regardless of how technologically superior they may be. The EXACT same reason why the Borg hadn't donkey punch the entire known galaxy.
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The reason the ewoks were able to take over the shield generator platform was because it was literally an entire civilization against 1 platoon of troops. They were surprised and out numbered.
Now some of the ST supporters have already conceded the point that the SW universe is just plain massive with the Empire counting it's ship totals in the millions. The empire and other factions of the SW universe are also well versed in ground combat. (I cant say I have ever seen anything close to AT-AT tech from ST). Even if ST has an advantage in space combat which is debatable, there isnt anything stopping them from just over running the ST universe. With a coordinated assault the SW universe could hit every single important planet in the ST Universe at one time, completely destroying supply chains and rebuild plans.
Think of this sequence of events.... Vader brings a super star destroyer to Earth.... the ST guys beam Vader into space (I'll let you do it for giggles). Lets say they even beam a nuke on board the Star Destroyer... but! the Star Destroyer had a plan. They launched their full compliment of Tie class fighters as soon as they entered the area. The Executor Star Destroyer can carry thousands of tie fighters when fully loaded... As well as a large number of AT-AT and AT-STs and other vehicles. (in the battle of Endor it only had 30 AT-ATs and 40 AT-STs on board, but it also only had 144 Tie Fighters on board, since there was no reason for it to be loaded up for a ground assault.)
How long do you think it would take Enterprise to take down just 1,000 Tie fighters? I bet Earth would look a lot worse for wear by the time they managed to even get half of them.
Someone early compared SW attack tactics to Zerg rushing... well if it works why not do it?
AT-AT? I saw the two legged version Get crushed by two logs swung with gravity by fuzzy little swims, that wouldn't have even dented a modern tank.
It's important not to get too vested in the outcome, as if the side you like more should win (which is very different from being very vested because you strongly believe in your arguments).
I love BSG but I'm not gonna argue anything but rapid, total defeat for the entire intact colonial BSG fleet combined with Cylons, against either SW or ST.
Its like US Afghanistan War tech with armor, artillery, close air support and ac130 gunships from some modern war movie, against Gone With the Wind and US civil war tech like horses and cannons. But we'll find SOMEBODY will argue that The modern forces don't have a general like Lee...
So far the only thing I've seen for the SW side is that they're bigger and more spread out and their FTL jump is faster and longer range. But they don't seem to be able to make attacks into normal space from hyperspace.
I dunno, maybe that (combined with a person very strong with the force) can be turned into an advantage that can overcome the inability to actually win any direct engagements with a warp capable starship.
Also you have to factor in what happens if one side manages to capture the other side's tech and how long it would take to copy it.
It's interesting that this kind of question is supposed to have a definitive answer. As if technology level simply decides the winner, implying one side has a MASSIVE tech advantage.
Most wars, even those with tech differences between sides, are decided by multiple factors, not the least of which are geography, population size, tactics, LUCK, political will, specific interests, resources, manufacturin capacity, supply & support, discipline, etc. etc. we really don't know the details of most of these factors in this war.
We don't answer "who would win WW II, allies or axis, if we fought it over 100 times?" with a point by point comparison of who has better fighter, better tank, etc.
AT-AT? I saw the two legged version Get crushed by two logs swung with gravity by fuzzy little swims, that wouldn't have even dented a modern tank.
So.... you glaze over my post and only respond to one small aspect?? I told you how the SW Universe would win even if it's decided that they dont have a tech advantage... The Empire had millions of ships... ST has thousands (I see estimated that the Klingons only had a few thousand ships) 1,000,000 versus 10,000? That's 100 to 1. And that's just 1 million from the Empire... Realistically you are probably looking at 500 to 1 or worse. Which also means the SW universe has the manufacturing power and supply chains to keep a navy that size supplied and reinforced. Luke was maybe.... 20-30 When Palpatine died? While they had ships before hand there is clearly a design change that happened between Episode 3 and Episode 4. I'd like to see the ST Universe even build 10,000 ships in the matter of 20 years.
You could drop seal team 6 into Ancient greece and even with infinite ammo by themselves they wouldnt stop the entire Persian Army.
Well, if you really want someone to argue your kamikaze tactic, I guess I'll bite.
After the Breen ravaged earth during the Dominion war (and they had to stop the borg cube during first contact) the federation started keeping ships around Earth and Mars as a sort of defense mechanism. After all, earth is super important and Mars contains one of the main shipyards for the federation fleet. Anyways, the point being that any ship would immediately get swarmed by the armada of ships in the area.
As for flying out and landing all those ground troops, really? ground troops take time to land, and none of the landing craft are as well protected as the main ship. Beam weapons would easily manage to stop most, if not all, of the landing craft, and those that do land would be exactly in that 'seal team 6' argument of yours.
Also, transphasic torpedoes. That is all
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I dont think you are understanding what I am saying... the SW universe can literally bring more ships to the fight than is physically possible to destroy before they do massive damage...
How many ships does Earth leave as a guard surrounding it? Whatever the number is SW can send 10 times as many capital ships... and oh yeah the SW capital ships are larger than ST ships, 900 Meters for a regular old Star Destroyer versus 366 meters for the enterprise. The Executor is 19 Kilometers. SW Ships can carry more weapons systems, more supplies and more fighters. Enterprise isnt going to fly around killing 10 Star Destroyers, 5,000+ tie fighters (which can fight inside the atmosphere so they can attack ground targets) and all the transports landing ground forces.
Lily: "How many planets are in the Federation?"
Picard: "Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years."
Even if we say every one of those planets has a ship yard the size of the one around earth it wouldnt take long at all for the SW alliance to take out every single station... Then ST cant maintain it's navy and will fade away to nothing while the SW navy continues to build millions of ships.
This really really needs to be made into a movie. It would be so epic. Picard could give one of his fancy speeches to The Emperor.
Thank robot Jesus for DVDs. That's a three-tape movie.
Bonus tape developer commentary squeaks in all the scenes of not-monologue for premium buyers.
Star Wars does have shields. Except TIE Fighters which don't have shield just so The Empire could make more of them...cheaply. Rebels keep bringing that up to show just how much The Empire cares about its soldiers, they aren't even worth a shield.
They have piloting skills. They can do barrel rolls. Less systems the less energy flying around the less to blow up with your targeting scanners.
Regarding Romulans in the Dominion war... I got sniped pretty hard considering "Confessions in the Pale Moonlight" is one of my favorite episodes... however,
I meant more that there's always a point at which Romulans will look to another objective for the good of Romulus. Oh, and the Dominion super power lost at that point.
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We are assumeing a compleatly united universal front against the other as such morals are gone and lets do some of that awsome that was a good idea but stupied morals said we should's is TOTALY in. Not only this but they have multiple TIME LINES (as shown in several of the shows, like Next generation/Voyager) Showing the multiple universe theory when their was a small fracture in time space. Or they were fixing up someone elses mess. While this theoreticly means that as long as its theoretically possable for star trek to win it will win in one of them, Then go back in time to help the ones that didn't(taking with them literally copys of all armys from other times lines.)
If the Federation wouldn't engage in time travel to fight the Dominion or the Borg (the former required a deus ex machina to beat, and the latter explicitly attempted the time travel victory themselves), there's no reason to assume they'd do so just to fight the Empire + New Republic + Yuuzhan Vong + random crap like the Chiss Ascendency, Empire of the Hand, Hapes Consortium, Duskhan League, etc. Basically I'm assuming that if something's impossible or never done in canon, it's not going to start happening in this conflict.
Also the whole "various timelines help each other win" thing is absurd and nothing like this is ever suggested to be so much as possible in the show. At worst the mirror universe steals stuff and people from the main universe.
Actually, Romulan D'Deridex class Warbirds are powered by quantum singularities (black holes). Additionally, the crew of Voyager figured out how to stabilize Omega particles, which are far, far more powerful than any other known power source. If a single molecule becomes unstable, it's destruction can literally affect the fabric of space in a whole sector.
Just so we're clear on our canon information, it's not simply "bad weather" or "caves" in general that can negatively affect transporters. Said weather or caves have to have a very specific chemical composition. So no, we're now back to SW deflectors being useless against transporters.
It doesn't get used that way because the Federation frowns on such tactics. That doesn't mean they won't use them if the circumstances are dire enough. They only reason they didn't use it in Star Trek: First Contact was because by the time they knew about the Borg presence (which was delayed because their sensors were disabled as a side effect of passing through the time rift), the Borg had already taken control of the system.
Fair enough, but I'd say the Yuuzhan Vong and Species 8472 (aka Undine) basically cancel each other out then.
True, but that's only guaranteed to help on the ground. In space is another story. The question comes down to whether or not you believe the SW navy has ANY sort of a shot against the fleets of the ST universe, which I believe they don't, as SW has repeatedly demonstrated almost zero tactical knowledge in space combat beyond ZERG RUSH, which isn't really a problem. They might as well be throwing water balloons given how fragile SW ships seem to be.
Maybe, maybe not. It all comes down to how high the stakes are. Plus, it presents a very interesting argument for the temporal mechanics side of things. If the future Federation doesn't interfere, it means that they're still there in the future waiting, which means the Federation wins. If they do interfere, they basically have an infinite number of turns to get it right, which means eventually the Federation wins.
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Second, I don't give a rats ass who the Yuzan Valyrians are. You're the one who keeps ranting about their super army, and how they'd wipe out the fed, and they're the best thing since sliced cheese etc etc. My only point is, I'm going at it from a Federation/Klingon/Romulan alliance vs Empire/Rebellion alliance. I didn't bring in Species 8472, I purposely left out the Borg, and have made no mention of Q. So if you want to bring in the Yoozan Bong, I'll bring in the Observers, the Borg, the Observers, Q, the Breen, Jem Hadar, Species 8472, Kazon, Remans, etc etc etc. and no, the Yoozan Bling AREN'T the big bad in the smack down, sorry. Q would poof those bad boys right out of existence.
Third, what's all this bs about your super powered, "My cannon is actually a star" crap? Please. We've gone from the point where a bunch of nerds were arguing technology/strategy/possible outcomes, to you coming in here and arguing fanboyism. I've given plenty of ground. Sure there's a possibility your deflector shields might interfere with transport tech. Jesus, I've even told the SW people that their best bet would be planetary invasions. So if you want to argue why yours would totally win because they're so kewl, I'm not interested. I'm arguing what I've seen, and what we both know. Star Trek has the tech.
Now. Back to the topic at hand. You can have all the numbers in the universe at your disposal. Hell, I'll give it to you for free. Let's say you outnumber us by 100 to one. Heck, make it 500. The fact of the matter is, you guys are so ineptly led, so completely mastered by total intergalactic rubes, that I'd take those odds any day. If a hastily cobbled up rabble of a rebellion led by an ignorant farmboy with incestuous intentions on his sister can smoke the empire, I'm POSITIVE the Fed can.
So. If you want to argue logically, we can. If you want to get into a "Mine is cooler than yours cause I say it is" thing, I'm not interested.
Volrath the FallenB Empress GalinaU Oona, Queen of the FaeBUAgrus Kos, Wojek VeteranRW
Ahh Borg have temperal Sheilding (and have passed that tech on to Voyager via 7 of 9 which is how they survived the whole "this weapon wipes out everything from history that interacted with this object weapon) which might explain why they never used it against the borg. In Next Generation when the time rift sucked in Enterprises from Thousands of time lines Reiker (one of the alternate time line ones) begged the other enterprises to do just that too help them fight off the borg in their time line. So I would say its QUITE possible (with a Reiker/Data saying it is possible) Further more if they felt their entire universe was at threat (which consider you made warring races who basicly exsist almost excusively TOO war all fight under a single banner seems quite likely) I could totaly see them stepping in.
They only stabilized Omega temporarily. Not long enough to use for anything viable.
Also just for a bit of comparison, the Romulans might use miniature quantum singularities for zero-point power, but the Yuuzhan Vong use them for shields.
Magnetic shields (such as what Rura Penthe employed) can also block transporters, and movie dialogue confirms that SW ships have that much, in addition to their normal shields that would block transporters on their own. Electromagnetic and ion interference regularly block transporters as well. Again, you massively overstate how effective they are, as if they're some kind of god technology.
Beaming intruders into holding areas is perfectly within the Federation's accepted tactics. They've also vented intruders into space on numerous occasions, so there's clearly no conceptual prohibition against beaming them into space. Their technology is just too limited to manage it—look at all the time they need pattern enhancers (including those found in combadges) just to establish a lock outside combat situations. In combat, well, they'd totally use the transporters for tactical purposes if they could, but they clearly can't.
Species 8472 was beaten very easily with modified nanoprobes. The New Republic created a similar bioweapon for use against the Yuuzhan Vong, and even that proved ineffective in ending the war.
ST is the one without any kind of tactical ability. Their combat engagements tended towards "throw walls of fleets at each other and see who wins," and Federation ships were seen blowing up after receiving trivially few hits during the Dominion War. At the very least SW can pull off fleet tactics without embarrassing themselves, as well as deploying fighter screens and using environment (nearby planets, asteroids, etc) to their advantage.
Multiple times, the stakes were "the survival of our very species" and it wasn't enough to prompt them to do it. They're not going to do it in this conflict just because their survival is at stake.
Also here's a thought: The Borg themselves only tried going back in time once. They had the resources to keep at it until they won, but they didn't. Furthermore, Braxton only had so many shots at stopping alternate himself with Seven. Time travel isn't the unbeatable, easy-to-use strategy you're pretending it is. It's shown repeatedly to be kludgy, difficult to employ, and you only get limited shots with limited resources.
So you're taking the unsubstantiated rantings of a madman as being concrete? Nothing indicates that they could have gone back and helped Crazy Riker even if they wanted to.
Also the temporal shield thing still needed them to find and analyze that undetonated chroniton torpedo. It wasn't a case of Seven going "oh snap I know how to block this."
Even if you argue that subspace and hyperspace are different, the SW universe has no technology that can warp into subspace. All SW battles happen at impulse speeds.
As for the "indestructible" ship that destroys stars that is in some stupid EU novel, as a Star Wars fan, I'd be EMBARRASSED to include that as part of canon. Metaphysical claims about the nature of technology that is "indestructible" like that are kind of ridiculous, and when brought up in some expanded **** novel, best to ignore it.
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Volrath the FallenB Empress GalinaU Oona, Queen of the FaeBUAgrus Kos, Wojek VeteranRW
As do most ST battles. Take a look at how many battles against the Borg (Wolf 359, Sector 001, etc), the Dominion, the Klingons, the Romulans, any enemy are fought at sublight speed. They'll even intentionally drop out of warp specifically to fight a warp-capable enemy, so clearly there's an advantage to sublight combat. Just because ST ships can fight at FTL speeds doesn't mean they will. Also, even stationary targets like space stations and planets are fought at sublight. "FTL combat automatically wins the war against non-FTL-combat-capable targets" isn't even true in the ST universe, so it's not going to be true in the STvSW universe.
Although hyperspace-based attacks do kind of exist, in that there's canon precedent for flying a ship in hyperspace at a planetary target and more or less wrecking the planet. The Federation doesn't even have planetary shield technology to prevent that kind of attack from being employed against them.
You say this like I'm somehow happy that I'm having to use it or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatever else. Even I have my limits (I'm not going to include Waru in anything serious), but as far as "universe vs universe" goes, I'm including any relevant tech because fair is fair according to how canon operates. Lucasfilm declares the SW novels canon, so they're included. Paramount declares the ST novels non-canon, so they're not included. Fair's fair.
Ahem. Lol meaning, within the context of this debate, I find that laughable at best...?
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Volrath the FallenB Empress GalinaU Oona, Queen of the FaeBUAgrus Kos, Wojek VeteranRW
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Volrath the FallenB Empress GalinaU Oona, Queen of the FaeBUAgrus Kos, Wojek VeteranRW
If fair is fair, then Star Trek is perfectly within rights to use Q as part of the debate. Or is that still unfair, as the OP described it? Because Q is definitely canon.
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Canonicity has nothing to do with keeping gods/godlike beings out of the scenario. If there were some SW equivalent to Q who only existed in the SW EU, I'd keep that out as well.
As for the FTL vs non FTL combat, the non FTL side has to at least have weapons that can hit objects that are not in normal space. SW universe certainly has no ability to even detect objects in subspace, let alone hit them. Especially since you insist subspace is different from hyperspace.
In ST universe, those ships and ground stations all have sensors that can all DETECT FTL ships in subspace. So non-warp ships know where they are.
SW ships do not have capability to even see an ST ship in warp, so it is essentially cloaked.
Of course the fact that SW ships can traverse greater distances much faster (i take your word for it) presents some serious weirdness to the war overall.
I see a war breaking down into the good SW and ST factions uniting against the emperor anyway, since it's so hard to definitively pin each other's fleet down, and it will just drag on & on.
I think I'd say nobody wins on account that the destruction caused by the war would leave all sides screwed.
Star Wars does have shields. Except TIE Fighters which don't have shield just so The Empire could make more of them...cheaply. Rebels keep bringing that up to show just how much The Empire cares about its soldiers, they aren't even worth a shield.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
People arguing for the technical superiority of Star Wars strike me as people who didn't watch Star Wars. It's kind of a theme that, no matter how advanced you are, no matter how big your gun is, "human" spirit and the desire to be free and good can and will overtake you. Planet destroyers are beaten by farm boys. Monks defeat death robots. Teddy bears topple an empire. If anything, that would be their biggest advantage.
Star Trek cannon is like 25 years of story telling. Next Generation -> DS9 -> Voyager -> Enterprise. People know what Federation/Klingon/Romulans can do.
Star Wars is 6 movies and it doesn't really show off what an Imperial Star Destroyer can do.
Control is the ultimate expression of power.
You are seriously insisting on the fact that because we can hit targets in Hyperspace, that we couldn't POSSIBLY come up with the tech or already have the tech but no longer need it since we don't bother moving at subspace speeds, that we could not hit targets moving at subspace speeds?
Also Q wasn't really identified as being a normal being other then the few times he mentions that one day the Federation COULD be like them. For all intents and purposes they have reached God status. Also it wasn't an indestructible ship, it was destroyed in a black hole, which you guys are pretty adament in reminding me you have plenty of.
Also I would like to debate the caliber of people both universes would have. Aside from the difficulty of having the Sith and the Jedi working together, if they did, the result would be unlike anything the universe has ever seen. Some of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in the galaxy were a combination of ideals and beliefs from both sides. Now we are combining both of them from periods of time when they were at the height of their power?
The Jedi may be peace loving pansies but they have shown in multiple occasions a near merciless zeal when defending the innocent. The Sith have shown thousands of times the level of depravity they have to be borderline obsence.
That isn't even including the number of Generals, Admirals, and Moffs that have been considered some of the most intelligent and capable leaders of their time. This senseless base that the Republic and the Empire are unorganized and incompentant is nothing more but senseless. If you refer to the movies as proof of that, those were events of the weak fighting to the bitter end and with bravery, hope, and an unyeilding will you can defeat any enemy regardless of how technologically superior they may be. The EXACT same reason why the Borg hadn't donkey punch the entire known galaxy.
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The reason the ewoks were able to take over the shield generator platform was because it was literally an entire civilization against 1 platoon of troops. They were surprised and out numbered.
Now some of the ST supporters have already conceded the point that the SW universe is just plain massive with the Empire counting it's ship totals in the millions. The empire and other factions of the SW universe are also well versed in ground combat. (I cant say I have ever seen anything close to AT-AT tech from ST). Even if ST has an advantage in space combat which is debatable, there isnt anything stopping them from just over running the ST universe. With a coordinated assault the SW universe could hit every single important planet in the ST Universe at one time, completely destroying supply chains and rebuild plans.
Think of this sequence of events.... Vader brings a super star destroyer to Earth.... the ST guys beam Vader into space (I'll let you do it for giggles). Lets say they even beam a nuke on board the Star Destroyer... but! the Star Destroyer had a plan. They launched their full compliment of Tie class fighters as soon as they entered the area. The Executor Star Destroyer can carry thousands of tie fighters when fully loaded... As well as a large number of AT-AT and AT-STs and other vehicles. (in the battle of Endor it only had 30 AT-ATs and 40 AT-STs on board, but it also only had 144 Tie Fighters on board, since there was no reason for it to be loaded up for a ground assault.)
How long do you think it would take Enterprise to take down just 1,000 Tie fighters? I bet Earth would look a lot worse for wear by the time they managed to even get half of them.
Someone early compared SW attack tactics to Zerg rushing... well if it works why not do it?
It's important not to get too vested in the outcome, as if the side you like more should win (which is very different from being very vested because you strongly believe in your arguments).
I love BSG but I'm not gonna argue anything but rapid, total defeat for the entire intact colonial BSG fleet combined with Cylons, against either SW or ST.
Its like US Afghanistan War tech with armor, artillery, close air support and ac130 gunships from some modern war movie, against Gone With the Wind and US civil war tech like horses and cannons. But we'll find SOMEBODY will argue that The modern forces don't have a general like Lee...
So far the only thing I've seen for the SW side is that they're bigger and more spread out and their FTL jump is faster and longer range. But they don't seem to be able to make attacks into normal space from hyperspace.
I dunno, maybe that (combined with a person very strong with the force) can be turned into an advantage that can overcome the inability to actually win any direct engagements with a warp capable starship.
Also you have to factor in what happens if one side manages to capture the other side's tech and how long it would take to copy it.
It's interesting that this kind of question is supposed to have a definitive answer. As if technology level simply decides the winner, implying one side has a MASSIVE tech advantage.
Most wars, even those with tech differences between sides, are decided by multiple factors, not the least of which are geography, population size, tactics, LUCK, political will, specific interests, resources, manufacturin capacity, supply & support, discipline, etc. etc. we really don't know the details of most of these factors in this war.
We don't answer "who would win WW II, allies or axis, if we fought it over 100 times?" with a point by point comparison of who has better fighter, better tank, etc.
So.... you glaze over my post and only respond to one small aspect?? I told you how the SW Universe would win even if it's decided that they dont have a tech advantage... The Empire had millions of ships... ST has thousands (I see estimated that the Klingons only had a few thousand ships) 1,000,000 versus 10,000? That's 100 to 1. And that's just 1 million from the Empire... Realistically you are probably looking at 500 to 1 or worse. Which also means the SW universe has the manufacturing power and supply chains to keep a navy that size supplied and reinforced. Luke was maybe.... 20-30 When Palpatine died? While they had ships before hand there is clearly a design change that happened between Episode 3 and Episode 4. I'd like to see the ST Universe even build 10,000 ships in the matter of 20 years.
You could drop seal team 6 into Ancient greece and even with infinite ammo by themselves they wouldnt stop the entire Persian Army.
After the Breen ravaged earth during the Dominion war (and they had to stop the borg cube during first contact) the federation started keeping ships around Earth and Mars as a sort of defense mechanism. After all, earth is super important and Mars contains one of the main shipyards for the federation fleet. Anyways, the point being that any ship would immediately get swarmed by the armada of ships in the area.
As for flying out and landing all those ground troops, really? ground troops take time to land, and none of the landing craft are as well protected as the main ship. Beam weapons would easily manage to stop most, if not all, of the landing craft, and those that do land would be exactly in that 'seal team 6' argument of yours.
Also, transphasic torpedoes. That is all
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How many ships does Earth leave as a guard surrounding it? Whatever the number is SW can send 10 times as many capital ships... and oh yeah the SW capital ships are larger than ST ships, 900 Meters for a regular old Star Destroyer versus 366 meters for the enterprise. The Executor is 19 Kilometers. SW Ships can carry more weapons systems, more supplies and more fighters. Enterprise isnt going to fly around killing 10 Star Destroyers, 5,000+ tie fighters (which can fight inside the atmosphere so they can attack ground targets) and all the transports landing ground forces.
Lily: "How many planets are in the Federation?"
Picard: "Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years."
Even if we say every one of those planets has a ship yard the size of the one around earth it wouldnt take long at all for the SW alliance to take out every single station... Then ST cant maintain it's navy and will fade away to nothing while the SW navy continues to build millions of ships.
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They have piloting skills. They can do barrel rolls. Less systems the less energy flying around the less to blow up with your targeting scanners.
Regarding Romulans in the Dominion war... I got sniped pretty hard considering "Confessions in the Pale Moonlight" is one of my favorite episodes... however,
I meant more that there's always a point at which Romulans will look to another objective for the good of Romulus. Oh, and the Dominion super power lost at that point.
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