Well then, it seems the outcome of this entire discussion was pre-biased towards star wars already.
So it's like someone saying, for instance, Muhammad Ali vs Superman. The mismatch is due to the nature of each participant rather than any handicaps one might be given. Star Wars and Star Trek have an even playing field when they're both limited to canon. It's actually quite unfair to say that one should be limited to canon and the other gets whatever non-canon stuff they feel like.
Send a drone carrying a modest amount of Red-Matter into the ENTIRE Star Wars fleet, and detonate it.
A fleet spread across many light years at the absolute minimum? That shows a profound lack of understanding of the scale that interstellar combat takes place at.
Transporting torpedoes right to the edges of a shield
Is never even discussed in canon, let alone executed. Theorycraft is nice and all, but if something is never demonstrated, then why talk about it?
The cloaking device used by Klingon vessels was only capable of being detected in the Star Wars universe by very rare sensor, non standard sensor systems, adding a huge layer of power to Trek vessels that can assault outposts and bases without them with impunity.
Outposts and bases with shields that are online 24/7? Star Wars has shields that can cover an entire planet at once, after all.
The Galaxy class cruiser Enterprise used by Picard in TNG was faster than Star Wars fighter craft and competently armed, despite being a vessel dedicated to science and diplomacy.
The Galaxy class cruiser Odyssey in DS9 was overpowered and, quite frankly, curbstomped by a small handful of Jem'hadar ships. Even if you buff the Star Trek universe a little in this example and go with a Sovereign or Prometheus class ship, they're still nowhere near as well-armed as an Imperial Star Destroyer.
Assuming all hostile forces joined together. Then we have to assume that the breen, and the federation to an extent, have access to this technology. Rendering target enemy vessels neutral. Shields, weapons, propulsion, all gone. leaving the vessel a floating husk ripe for destruction.
Similarly, all Dominion vessels were retrofitted for its' use as well, We're talking a serious number of vessels equipped with fatal weaponry. And these vessels shields are formidable. I don't think the empire would have enough time to react to an armada of vessels literally weaving into your fleet nullifying ships as they pass by.
Also, let's remember Shinzon's Reman Warbird --Scimitar. 52 Disruptor Banks, 27 Photon Torpedo bays, Primary AND secondary Shields, along with a compliment of Scorpion-class attack fighters. Plus, the only 2 ways to detect a ship when cloaked, didn't work on it. The cloak was -Perfect-. The only way to detect it was to get a pot-shot while it was cloaked or to fire at where it fired from. Also, the Theleron Radiation Generator. even though it takes 7 minutes to prepare the weapon, could consume the population of a planet in seconds.
There's a lot more I could go into, but seriously, I think a lot of people have forgotten that certain tech does exist in ST and would severely hamper SW in a big way. Just because you have bigger ships and more "lasers", doesn't mean you'll win.
Is never even discussed in canon, let alone executed. Theorycraft is nice and all, but if something is never demonstrated, then why talk about it?
I think this has been demonstrated if i'm not mistaken, there was an episode of Voyager where Janeway, Tuvok, and someone else, whom I can't remember, were working aboard a Borg vessel with the newly introduced 7 of 9, on torpedoes that were to be modified and transported into their targets. It worked too, however, Janeway and company were assimilated in the process...
The Breen energy dissipation weapon is like a less robust version of the Star Wars ion cannon technology. Which come standard on Star Destroyers.
A single Imperial II-class Star Destroyer, for the record, is armed with 50 heavy turbolasers, 50 normal turbolasers, over 25 additional batteries, and 20 ion cannons, in addition to 72 TIEs, five assault gunboats, and various other support craft. Plus they have the benefit of being mass-produced. They're well enough armed and armoured that things like the Breen energy weapons or Shinzon's cloak wouldn't be all that overwhelming. Remember, The Die Is Cast showed that it took an entire fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships to do what a single Star Destroyer is capable of doing.
Also I'd rate the Death Star as being more powerful than a single warship with a thaleron radiation cannon. To say nothing of the other superweapons available in the Star Wars universe.
Also also, the Voyager example didn't exactly show them using it tactically in the middle of ship-to-ship combat...
Also also, the Voyager example didn't exactly show them using it tactically in the middle of ship-to-ship combat...
Yeah, but it worked. And you'd assume it was in ship-to-ship combat because Borg ships can't cloak... As soon as they were seen, they'd be fired upon.
Trust me. It's a well-enough example and it's canon. It happened, so we can assume the Borg can do it. And they're just merciless enough to do it on a massive scale.
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That goes against the Borg's "assimilate rather than kill" philosophy, though.
It's also noteworthy that the torpedo was only beamed onto the Borg probe after it was disabled and its shields were down, and not in the middle of combat. By that point, Voyager could've just shot them and accomplished basically the same outcome.
That goes against the Borg's "assimilate rather than kill" philosophy, though.
It's also noteworthy that the torpedo was only beamed onto the Borg probe after it was disabled and its shields were down, and not in the middle of combat. By that point, Voyager could've just shot them and accomplished basically the same outcome.
Umm...Voyager was working with the borg in that episode...
Ugh, there's no arguing this anymore, it's been argued to death.
There's no point in arguing that you can have the ENTIRE Imperial fleet in this fight either. All of a sudden ST isn't fighting the entire imperial fleet, then all of a sudden, it is.
Plus, with your big, bulky, ponderous Star DEstroyers, you have to realise, ST ships can just fly circles around them. Good luck trying to hit anything if it isn't sitting still.
I'm done arguing, this is exhausting, and I don't have time for it anymore.
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Umm...Voyager was working with the borg in that episode...
Ugh, there's no arguing this anymore, it's been argued to death.
There's no point in arguing that you can have the ENTIRE Imperial fleet in this fight either. All of a sudden ST isn't fighting the entire imperial fleet, then all of a sudden, it is.
Plus, with your big, bulky, ponderous Star DEstroyers, you have to realise, ST ships can just fly circles around them. Good luck trying to hit anything if it isn't sitting still.
I'm done arguing, this is exhausting, and I don't have time for it anymore.
I think you missed the point of the debate. It isnt a single fight. If you wanted to argue what would happen if a half dozen ships from each side met in a space battle I might give it to ST. The topic of debate though was if the entire universe from each series went to war. That means there is planning, manufacturing ramp up, lots of small battles, intel gathering... Under those parameters ST doesnt stand a chance because of the massive scale of the SW Universe.
I think you missed the point of the debate. It isnt a single fight. If you wanted to argue what would happen if a half dozen ships from each side met in a space battle I might give it to ST. The topic of debate though was if the entire universe from each series went to war. That means there is planning, manufacturing ramp up, lots of small battles, intel gathering... Under those parameters ST doesnt stand a chance because of the massive scale of the SW Universe.
Point is, everyone is ignoring the fact that you claim ST only has a couple ships, which just isn't so.
You know, if ONE Borg Cube can decimate nearly HALF of Starfleet's total space-force, what do you think an ARMY of Cubes/Tactical Cubes (and yes, they're canon, i checked.) Could do? You have to remember, the Borg can just bypass a ship's shields, and cut entire sections of ship out. Remember?
The Borg CAN field a LOT more ships than you give credit for. Also, if they wanted to, they could travel back in time to warn themselves about SW impending invasion and ramp up production of more ships, new tech, etc. Remember the Borg sphere that traveled back in time in First Contact by emitting Chronometric Particles? They created a Temporal Vortex.
If the Empire is lucky, they destroy one borg vessel before the Borg adapt to their weapons. and Unlike Phasers, I don't think you can remodulate your ammunition before you'd just die... (And that's in EVERY battle with the Borg.... and considering the Borg can travel in Trans-Warp, can literally cross the galaxy in minutes, they could appear in ANY battle they choose.)
"We are the Borg. Your culture will adapt to service us... Resistance is futile."
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Point is, everyone is ignoring the fact that you claim ST only has a couple ships, which just isn't so.
You know, if ONE Borg Cube can decimate nearly HALF of Starfleet's total space-force, what do you think an ARMY of Cubes/Tactical Cubes (and yes, they're canon, i checked.) Could do? You have to remember, the Borg can just bypass a ship's shields, and cut entire sections of ship out. Remember?
The Borg CAN field a LOT more ships than you give credit for. Also, if they wanted to, they could travel back in time to warn themselves about SW impending invasion and ramp up production of more ships, new tech, etc. Remember the Borg sphere that traveled back in time in First Contact by emitting Chronometric Particles? They created a Temporal Vortex.
If the Empire is lucky, they destroy one borg vessel before the Borg adapt to their weapons. and Unlike Phasers, I don't think you can remodulate your ammunition before you'd just die... (And that's in EVERY battle with the Borg.... and considering the Borg can travel in Trans-Warp, can literally cross the galaxy in minutes, they could appear in ANY battle they choose.)
"We are the Borg. Your culture will adapt to service us... Resistance is futile."
The best description I have been able to find for numbers of borg cubes is a reference to there being thousands where the Borg queen was (before it was destroyed). If you can find a better number please be my guest. Just throwing together quick numbers if each race in ST could provide 10,000 capital size ships that would still be less than a million ships. The Empire has been referenced as having millions of ships.
Also time travel is dumb for versus debates so just leave that alone.
It would be better if you would make a real argument that wasnt some version of "Borg are invincible! you lose!" or "time travel is auto wins!". It would be good to give a real reason for how ST could contend with a massive numbers disadvantage and warp speed disadvantage.
The best description I have been able to find for numbers of borg cubes is a reference to there being thousands where the Borg queen was (before it was destroyed). If you can find a better number please be my guest. Just throwing together quick numbers if each race in ST could provide 10,000 capital size ships that would still be less than a million ships. The Empire has been referenced as having millions of ships.
Also time travel is dumb for versus debates so just leave that alone.
It would be better if you would make a real argument that wasnt some version of "Borg are invincible! you lose!" or "time travel is auto wins!". It would be good to give a real reason for how ST could contend with a massive numbers disadvantage and warp speed disadvantage.
Did you just say "Warp Speed Disadvantage?"
I'm pretty sure TRanswarp is faster than lightspeed, so speed advantage goes to star trek.
Big, Ponderous Star DEstroyers can't maneuver that well at sublight speeds either. and can't fire in lightspeed either. There are vessels in ST that CAN fire during Warp.
and plus, we've already established that the Empire can't field it's entire MILLIONS of ships in one battlefield.
Plus, you totally ignored the Red-Matter argument. Can a Star DEstroyer escape a black hole before it and all the ships around it crash into each other in the gravity well? No, they can't...
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I think you missed the point of the debate. It isnt a single fight. If you wanted to argue what would happen if a half dozen ships from each side met in a space battle I might give it to ST. The topic of debate though was if the entire universe from each series went to war. That means there is planning, manufacturing ramp up, lots of small battles, intel gathering... Under those parameters ST doesnt stand a chance because of the massive scale of the SW Universe.
Are you kidding me? your trying to wint he production race? Against STAR TRECK, the world where they no longer need materal goods because they have assended passed scarity? where relicators can make stuff near instantly and can fabercate 1000's of military items in Min's? ST is amazing in the infrostucter division, however ever planet I have seen in SW seems to not be all that "factory production". Even is say you ahve 100 more people producting, who is going to win making more cars, 100,000 people with no equipment just raw materals or 100 people in a car making factory fully automated ?
I'm pretty sure TRanswarp is faster than lightspeed, so speed advantage goes to star trek.
Big, Ponderous Star DEstroyers can't maneuver that well at sublight speeds either. and can't fire in lightspeed either. There are vessels in ST that CAN fire during Warp.
and plus, we've already established that the Empire can't field it's entire MILLIONS of ships in one battlefield.
Plus, you totally ignored the Red-Matter argument. Can a Star DEstroyer escape a black hole before it and all the ships around it crash into each other in the gravity well? No, they can't...
Earlier in the thread someone did the comparison with in Canon numbers which showed that Star Wars "warp" is faster than ST "Warp".
You are correct that the Star Destroyers themselves have very little maneuverability however they also can launch dozens of small fighters.
Why would they ever want to field millions in one field? Is ST going to mass up it's forces? I would expect SW to do a divide and concur using some ships to guard key area and attack several of ST's key areas. If ten thousand SW ships are attacking each key Federation planet how does ST respond?
I ignored the red matter argument because I can. Cool... you black hole a few dozen Star Destroyers... do you use this tactic near Earth? I doubt it otherwise Earth would also be destroyed.
Earlier in the thread someone did the comparison with in Canon numbers which showed that Star Wars "warp" is faster than ST "Warp".
You are correct that the Star Destroyers themselves have very little maneuverability however they also can launch dozens of small fighters.
Why would they ever want to field millions in one field? Is ST going to mass up it's forces? I would expect SW to do a divide and concur using some ships to guard key area and attack several of ST's key areas. If ten thousand SW ships are attacking each key Federation planet how does ST respond?
I ignored the red matter argument because I can. Cool... you black hole a few dozen Star Destroyers... do you use this tactic near Earth? I doubt it otherwise Earth would also be destroyed.
No, but you did ignore the Gigantic HEavily-Armed Starbases. And why do you assume that everything in ST is federation aligned? It's not...
And Again, I said -Trans-Warp. The Borg don't regularly travel through warp like regular ships do. They travel using Trans-Warp Conduits. A Borg sphere traveled to Earth, from the Delta Quadrant through a Transwarp Conduit...It took a couple minutes to make it there. a Trip that would otherwise take what, 76 years? The Borg are faster, stronger and more resilient than you give credit for.
In hand to hand combat, the borg can adapt to your projectile weapons fairly quickly, you'll likely get to fire 5-12 shots before they adapt. Unlike phasers though, blasters and lasers have actual physical ammunition, and it can't be re-modulated on the fly. Therefore Borg have a Distinct advantage in the defense department.
Plus, Borg Cubes are roughly 28 cubic kilometers in size, with each side measuring more than 3 Kilometers each. So, roughly the Borg Cube is 9X Larger than a Star Destroyer which only measure in at less than 1000 meters, Also, 1 Kilometer = 1000 meters... You could fit 28 star destroyers inside of ONE borg cube, not Tactical cube, just a cube. And T-Cubes are LARGER than regular cubes...
So, Borg vessels are Larger, Faster, more heavily armed than ISDs... Care to give your argument a rest? And btw, these are all facts taken from canon...
Also, Borg cubes were manned by at least 5000, to 129,000 drones. There has also been a recorded fleet size (not by starfleet) of at least 100 borg cubes to assimilate a planet.
There's a fleet or ya, it would take 2800 ISDS to even come close to MATCHING a Borg Cube fleet of at least 100 cubes...
Borg Cubes can remain active even if 78% of the vessel is inoperable.
and their Tracor beams DRAIN the shields of their targets, and can even be used to destroy the target if it's resisting assimilation.
Just because Star Wars calls its technology "lightspeed" or "lasers" or whatever doesn't mean that's what they are. Lasers are very clearly subliminal weapons that fire discrete bolts rather than being actual lasers. Lightspeed is clearly much, much faster than light. I will grant that transwarp is an equalizing technology, but that's all it really is.
Honestly, the best advantage I can come up with for the Star Trek universe is the Founders. Even Obi-Wan, a highly trained Jedi, had trouble tracking down Zam Wessell, and the Founders are both better shapeshifters and much smarter than she was. It's not inconceivable that they could infiltrate the Star Wars side like they did with the Federation, and depending on how far they get and how effective they are, it could be disastrous.
Also the fact that the Jem'hadar are mass-produced in arbitrarily large numbers, although they need ketracel white and the supply lines for that can be easy to disrupt. It's also shown that they aren't as effective as normal troopers for extended field operations.
Honestly, I think that if anything from the Star Trek universe can put up a real fight, it's not the Borg, but the Dominion.
Also 2800 ISDs? That's at least two orders of magnitude less than what the Empire could actually field, and even that number excludes their frigates, dreadnaughts, carriers, and other battleships. Not to mention their other war materiel (if the Borg want to assimilate a planet, then they have to get past planetary shields that can repel extended fleet bombardments and ground-to-space defense batteries that can cripple warships in single shots). And remember, nanotechnology in the Star Wars universe is a known factor (it's even mass-marketed), so I see them learning how to deal with nanoprobes in the long run.
I question the assertion that cubes are more heavily armed than ISDs, though. An ISD is designed as a weapon of war meant to destroy the enemy. A Borg cube is designed as a way to assimilate the enemy. It stands to reason that a Borg cube would be less armed than an ISD, given the fact that their objectives are completely different.
Also: Borg Tactical Cubes. Bigger, Meaner version of the Borg Cube.
Borg vessels are designed to be more resistant to systems damage than the conventional ship. remember, even if 78% of the Cube is inoperable, it will remain active and actively regenerate.
Also, Borg Tractor beams do more than just hold you in place, it drains shields (i'd assume absorbs the energy and uses it) and don't forget the cutting beams, it can slice entire sections of a ship out and prepare it for assimilation.
Also, I'm not arguing nanites here, what you have to do is disrupt the connection with the collective. Not an easy feat when your guys are getting assimilated and being taken aboard the borg ships. Since Star wars doesn't have transporting technology, it won't be an easy thing to get your guys back.
Also Ketracel White was a drug and the Jem'Hadar were addicted to it. There was an episode where a small group of JemHadar broke their addiction, so I'd assume the same could happen to everyone else. The drug was a controlling mechanism, a drug addict will do whatever their told to do just to get their next fix.
Also, even if the empire figures out a way to counteract assimilation, the Borg will just start killing mercilessly. Once you take away the option to assimilate, what else is there? then they won't even bother with the stall tactics, they'll just wipe the floor with the empire.
@fluffy_bunny, launching a bunch of weak, unshielded, poorly armed fighters has really no effect on the Borg, even if they use Kamikaze tactics, it would'nt make a dent in a single cube. Unlike the Death Star, there are no construction weaknesses on a cube. No exterior entry points, the borg have to LET you in for you to get in.
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The Borg are such a dominant species by design that they should have no trouble with the SW universe. This is a universe that's still fighting wars with men on the ground who are frequently incapacitated by basic force fields.
There was also that one species in Voyager/DS9 that was preying on the Borg...
I remind you that the Federation fleet in First Contact wore down and destroyed a cube basically through sheer attrition. And Starfleet consists primarily of exploration and science ships, not full-on warships (though there are exceptions, like the Defiant class and Prometheus class, they're limited in production). All throughout the Dominion war, they were mostly just using their science vessels on the front lines.
The Borg only seem invincibly powerful because of who they're up against. Time and again, they've shown that they aren't quite so hot when they don't have an overwhelming advantage (in fact, they're almost trivial to defeat once you get a good edge on them). The Dominion on the other hand... they did far better than the Borg ever did after their advantages were stripped away, which is why I say they'd make a better adversary for the Star Wars universe than the Borg ever would.
A big thing is weapon yield. If a Star Trek ship wants to refit its weapons with antimatter or space distortion weaponry, they can change up their torpedoes into planet destroying armaments relatively quickly. Blowing up planets is easy in the Trek-iverse, while in Star Wars even the largest battle station isn't rated for the kind of blasts that Star Trek ships can dish out.
Trek warships are WAY more powerful than their Star Wars universe equivalents, easily capable with appropriate and available weapon loadout of blasting planets into hot gas. The Enterprise of TNG is roughly equivalent to a Nebulon-B frigate in the Star Wars Universe, and it could be retrofitted easily with higher power torpedo banks capable of generating explosions that shields in either universe couldn't possibly handle.
If we consider how combat would work practically, it would look a lot more like Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ - relying heavily on teleporters where they're available) than what was displayed in the show. The bigger question is why neither universe goes on about stuff like anti-missile systems since you could obviously pack a HUGE warhead with high energy explosive in a Star Wars ship, as well as the effective range of turbolasers, which can glass a planet but seem to have vastly less range in effective ship to ship combat (tracking systems for fast moving targets?). Transporters work at ranges of over 20 kilometers, so you can teleport an antimatter torpedo from extreme range right into a Star Wars ship formation and detonate it, obliterating all strike craft, all smaller vessels, and quite probably either damaging or destroying the larger craft outright depending on the size. Niche units like the Super Star Destroyers and Death Stars don't really factor heavily into a force equation - their shields were stronger than Star Destroyers, but they don't have anything to make up the speed difference, teleporter advantage, and weapon yield that Trek ships can bring to bear from beyond turbo laser range. To say nothing of the extreme cost of supplying such vessels when smaller, more efficient craft could do their jobs for them. The problem is that Trek ships wield range, speed, and firepower far in excess of their Star Wars equivalents.
A big thing is weapon yield. If a Star Trek ship wants to refit its weapons with antimatter or space distortion weaponry, they can change up their torpedoes into planet destroying armaments relatively quickly. Blowing up planets is easy in the Trek-iverse, while in Star Wars even the largest battle station isn't rated for the kind of blasts that Star Trek ships can dish out.
Trek warships are WAY more powerful than their Star Wars universe equivalents, easily capable with appropriate and available weapon loadout of blasting planets into hot gas. The Enterprise of TNG is roughly equivalent to a Nebulon-B frigate in the Star Wars Universe, and it could be retrofitted easily with higher power torpedo banks capable of generating explosions that shields in either universe couldn't possibly handle.
If we consider how combat would work practically, it would look a lot more like Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ - relying heavily on teleporters where they're available) than what was displayed in the show. The bigger question is why neither universe goes on about stuff like anti-missile systems since you could obviously pack a HUGE warhead with high energy explosive in a Star Wars ship, as well as the effective range of turbolasers, which can glass a planet but seem to have vastly less range in effective ship to ship combat (tracking systems for fast moving targets?). Transporters work at ranges of over 20 kilometers, so you can teleport an antimatter torpedo from extreme range right into a Star Wars ship formation and detonate it, obliterating all strike craft, all smaller vessels, and quite probably either damaging or destroying the larger craft outright depending on the size. Niche units like the Super Star Destroyers and Death Stars don't really factor heavily into a force equation - their shields were stronger than Star Destroyers, but they don't have anything to make up the speed difference, teleporter advantage, and weapon yield that Trek ships can bring to bear from beyond turbo laser range. To say nothing of the extreme cost of supplying such vessels when smaller, more efficient craft could do their jobs for them. The problem is that Trek ships wield range, speed, and firepower far in excess of their Star Wars equivalents.
... ... ...What?!
The argument can only use things in Canon, they've never done anything like that with torpedoes in Canon...
However, speaking of Spacial Distortions, The Son'a have access to weaponry to create rips in Subspace. the ship they're fired upon literally drags the tear across space like a zipper on a jacket...
While I disagree with the quoted section, there are powerful weapons in ST I haven't mentioned. I'm just now remembering everything and I post it as I remember, haven't watched trek in a while. lol
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C'mon, they don't use it b/c it's an obvious game breaker in the show that fundamentally was about conflict but not necessarily combat - they were diplomats and scientists, not soldiers. If you were a military strategist and someone showed you a teleporter and said "Your enemy lives in a gas filled box over thar" your first thought would not be to use it to send him a fruit basket and a boarding party.
If the show was more combat centric ala Battlestar Everyone's a Cylon, it would have been used a few times.
C'mon, they don't use it b/c it's an obvious game breaker in the show that fundamentally was about conflict but not necessarily combat - they were diplomats and scientists, not soldiers. If you were a military strategist and someone showed you a teleporter and said "Your enemy lives in a gas filled box over thar" your first thought would not be to use it to send him a fruit basket and a boarding party.
This argument goes out the window when you consider that they don't employ tactics like that even when their very survival is on the line. If the Dominion war wasn't dire enough for them to do certain things (despite that the Federation leadership was just fine condoning Section 31's biological warfare and other general nastiness), a war against the Star Wars universe wouldn't be either.
This argument goes out the window when you consider that they don't employ tactics like that even when their very survival is on the line. If the Dominion war wasn't dire enough for them to do certain things (despite that the Federation leadership was just fine condoning Section 31's biological warfare and other general nastiness), a war against the Star Wars universe wouldn't be either.
Well, the Federation wouldn't do it. and the Klingons and Romulans didn't do it because the federation would say "No! Bad Species!"
I honestly don't know why the Borg don't do it/didn't do it. I guess they just wanted to hug and assimilate too much (except Wolf 359, that was a bloodbath.)
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So it's like someone saying, for instance, Muhammad Ali vs Superman. The mismatch is due to the nature of each participant rather than any handicaps one might be given. Star Wars and Star Trek have an even playing field when they're both limited to canon. It's actually quite unfair to say that one should be limited to canon and the other gets whatever non-canon stuff they feel like.
A fleet spread across many light years at the absolute minimum? That shows a profound lack of understanding of the scale that interstellar combat takes place at.
Is never even discussed in canon, let alone executed. Theorycraft is nice and all, but if something is never demonstrated, then why talk about it?
Outposts and bases with shields that are online 24/7? Star Wars has shields that can cover an entire planet at once, after all.
The Galaxy class cruiser Odyssey in DS9 was overpowered and, quite frankly, curbstomped by a small handful of Jem'hadar ships. Even if you buff the Star Trek universe a little in this example and go with a Sovereign or Prometheus class ship, they're still nowhere near as well-armed as an Imperial Star Destroyer.
Here's the link if you don't. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Energy_dissipator
Assuming all hostile forces joined together. Then we have to assume that the breen, and the federation to an extent, have access to this technology. Rendering target enemy vessels neutral. Shields, weapons, propulsion, all gone. leaving the vessel a floating husk ripe for destruction.
Similarly, all Dominion vessels were retrofitted for its' use as well, We're talking a serious number of vessels equipped with fatal weaponry. And these vessels shields are formidable. I don't think the empire would have enough time to react to an armada of vessels literally weaving into your fleet nullifying ships as they pass by.
Also, let's remember Shinzon's Reman Warbird --Scimitar. 52 Disruptor Banks, 27 Photon Torpedo bays, Primary AND secondary Shields, along with a compliment of Scorpion-class attack fighters. Plus, the only 2 ways to detect a ship when cloaked, didn't work on it. The cloak was -Perfect-. The only way to detect it was to get a pot-shot while it was cloaked or to fire at where it fired from. Also, the Theleron Radiation Generator. even though it takes 7 minutes to prepare the weapon, could consume the population of a planet in seconds.
There's a lot more I could go into, but seriously, I think a lot of people have forgotten that certain tech does exist in ST and would severely hamper SW in a big way. Just because you have bigger ships and more "lasers", doesn't mean you'll win.
I think this has been demonstrated if i'm not mistaken, there was an episode of Voyager where Janeway, Tuvok, and someone else, whom I can't remember, were working aboard a Borg vessel with the newly introduced 7 of 9, on torpedoes that were to be modified and transported into their targets. It worked too, however, Janeway and company were assimilated in the process...
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A single Imperial II-class Star Destroyer, for the record, is armed with 50 heavy turbolasers, 50 normal turbolasers, over 25 additional batteries, and 20 ion cannons, in addition to 72 TIEs, five assault gunboats, and various other support craft. Plus they have the benefit of being mass-produced. They're well enough armed and armoured that things like the Breen energy weapons or Shinzon's cloak wouldn't be all that overwhelming. Remember, The Die Is Cast showed that it took an entire fleet of Cardassian and Romulan ships to do what a single Star Destroyer is capable of doing.
Also I'd rate the Death Star as being more powerful than a single warship with a thaleron radiation cannon. To say nothing of the other superweapons available in the Star Wars universe.
Also also, the Voyager example didn't exactly show them using it tactically in the middle of ship-to-ship combat...
Yeah, but it worked. And you'd assume it was in ship-to-ship combat because Borg ships can't cloak... As soon as they were seen, they'd be fired upon.
Trust me. It's a well-enough example and it's canon. It happened, so we can assume the Borg can do it. And they're just merciless enough to do it on a massive scale.
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It's also noteworthy that the torpedo was only beamed onto the Borg probe after it was disabled and its shields were down, and not in the middle of combat. By that point, Voyager could've just shot them and accomplished basically the same outcome.
Umm...Voyager was working with the borg in that episode...
Ugh, there's no arguing this anymore, it's been argued to death.
There's no point in arguing that you can have the ENTIRE Imperial fleet in this fight either. All of a sudden ST isn't fighting the entire imperial fleet, then all of a sudden, it is.
Plus, with your big, bulky, ponderous Star DEstroyers, you have to realise, ST ships can just fly circles around them. Good luck trying to hit anything if it isn't sitting still.
I'm done arguing, this is exhausting, and I don't have time for it anymore.
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I think you missed the point of the debate. It isnt a single fight. If you wanted to argue what would happen if a half dozen ships from each side met in a space battle I might give it to ST. The topic of debate though was if the entire universe from each series went to war. That means there is planning, manufacturing ramp up, lots of small battles, intel gathering... Under those parameters ST doesnt stand a chance because of the massive scale of the SW Universe.
Point is, everyone is ignoring the fact that you claim ST only has a couple ships, which just isn't so.
You know, if ONE Borg Cube can decimate nearly HALF of Starfleet's total space-force, what do you think an ARMY of Cubes/Tactical Cubes (and yes, they're canon, i checked.) Could do? You have to remember, the Borg can just bypass a ship's shields, and cut entire sections of ship out. Remember?
The Borg CAN field a LOT more ships than you give credit for. Also, if they wanted to, they could travel back in time to warn themselves about SW impending invasion and ramp up production of more ships, new tech, etc. Remember the Borg sphere that traveled back in time in First Contact by emitting Chronometric Particles? They created a Temporal Vortex.
If the Empire is lucky, they destroy one borg vessel before the Borg adapt to their weapons. and Unlike Phasers, I don't think you can remodulate your ammunition before you'd just die... (And that's in EVERY battle with the Borg.... and considering the Borg can travel in Trans-Warp, can literally cross the galaxy in minutes, they could appear in ANY battle they choose.)
"We are the Borg. Your culture will adapt to service us... Resistance is futile."
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The best description I have been able to find for numbers of borg cubes is a reference to there being thousands where the Borg queen was (before it was destroyed). If you can find a better number please be my guest. Just throwing together quick numbers if each race in ST could provide 10,000 capital size ships that would still be less than a million ships. The Empire has been referenced as having millions of ships.
Also time travel is dumb for versus debates so just leave that alone.
It would be better if you would make a real argument that wasnt some version of "Borg are invincible! you lose!" or "time travel is auto wins!". It would be good to give a real reason for how ST could contend with a massive numbers disadvantage and warp speed disadvantage.
Did you just say "Warp Speed Disadvantage?"
I'm pretty sure TRanswarp is faster than lightspeed, so speed advantage goes to star trek.
Big, Ponderous Star DEstroyers can't maneuver that well at sublight speeds either. and can't fire in lightspeed either. There are vessels in ST that CAN fire during Warp.
and plus, we've already established that the Empire can't field it's entire MILLIONS of ships in one battlefield.
Plus, you totally ignored the Red-Matter argument. Can a Star DEstroyer escape a black hole before it and all the ships around it crash into each other in the gravity well? No, they can't...
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Are you kidding me? your trying to wint he production race? Against STAR TRECK, the world where they no longer need materal goods because they have assended passed scarity? where relicators can make stuff near instantly and can fabercate 1000's of military items in Min's? ST is amazing in the infrostucter division, however ever planet I have seen in SW seems to not be all that "factory production". Even is say you ahve 100 more people producting, who is going to win making more cars, 100,000 people with no equipment just raw materals or 100 people in a car making factory fully automated ?
Earlier in the thread someone did the comparison with in Canon numbers which showed that Star Wars "warp" is faster than ST "Warp".
You are correct that the Star Destroyers themselves have very little maneuverability however they also can launch dozens of small fighters.
Why would they ever want to field millions in one field? Is ST going to mass up it's forces? I would expect SW to do a divide and concur using some ships to guard key area and attack several of ST's key areas. If ten thousand SW ships are attacking each key Federation planet how does ST respond?
I ignored the red matter argument because I can. Cool... you black hole a few dozen Star Destroyers... do you use this tactic near Earth? I doubt it otherwise Earth would also be destroyed.
No, but you did ignore the Gigantic HEavily-Armed Starbases. And why do you assume that everything in ST is federation aligned? It's not...
And Again, I said -Trans-Warp. The Borg don't regularly travel through warp like regular ships do. They travel using Trans-Warp Conduits. A Borg sphere traveled to Earth, from the Delta Quadrant through a Transwarp Conduit...It took a couple minutes to make it there. a Trip that would otherwise take what, 76 years? The Borg are faster, stronger and more resilient than you give credit for.
In hand to hand combat, the borg can adapt to your projectile weapons fairly quickly, you'll likely get to fire 5-12 shots before they adapt. Unlike phasers though, blasters and lasers have actual physical ammunition, and it can't be re-modulated on the fly. Therefore Borg have a Distinct advantage in the defense department.
Plus, Borg Cubes are roughly 28 cubic kilometers in size, with each side measuring more than 3 Kilometers each. So, roughly the Borg Cube is 9X Larger than a Star Destroyer which only measure in at less than 1000 meters, Also, 1 Kilometer = 1000 meters... You could fit 28 star destroyers inside of ONE borg cube, not Tactical cube, just a cube. And T-Cubes are LARGER than regular cubes...
So, Borg vessels are Larger, Faster, more heavily armed than ISDs... Care to give your argument a rest? And btw, these are all facts taken from canon...
Also, Borg cubes were manned by at least 5000, to 129,000 drones. There has also been a recorded fleet size (not by starfleet) of at least 100 borg cubes to assimilate a planet.
There's a fleet or ya, it would take 2800 ISDS to even come close to MATCHING a Borg Cube fleet of at least 100 cubes...
Borg Cubes can remain active even if 78% of the vessel is inoperable.
and their Tracor beams DRAIN the shields of their targets, and can even be used to destroy the target if it's resisting assimilation.
Quite the Dreadful enemy, eh?
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Honestly, the best advantage I can come up with for the Star Trek universe is the Founders. Even Obi-Wan, a highly trained Jedi, had trouble tracking down Zam Wessell, and the Founders are both better shapeshifters and much smarter than she was. It's not inconceivable that they could infiltrate the Star Wars side like they did with the Federation, and depending on how far they get and how effective they are, it could be disastrous.
Also the fact that the Jem'hadar are mass-produced in arbitrarily large numbers, although they need ketracel white and the supply lines for that can be easy to disrupt. It's also shown that they aren't as effective as normal troopers for extended field operations.
Honestly, I think that if anything from the Star Trek universe can put up a real fight, it's not the Borg, but the Dominion.
Also 2800 ISDs? That's at least two orders of magnitude less than what the Empire could actually field, and even that number excludes their frigates, dreadnaughts, carriers, and other battleships. Not to mention their other war materiel (if the Borg want to assimilate a planet, then they have to get past planetary shields that can repel extended fleet bombardments and ground-to-space defense batteries that can cripple warships in single shots). And remember, nanotechnology in the Star Wars universe is a known factor (it's even mass-marketed), so I see them learning how to deal with nanoprobes in the long run.
I question the assertion that cubes are more heavily armed than ISDs, though. An ISD is designed as a weapon of war meant to destroy the enemy. A Borg cube is designed as a way to assimilate the enemy. It stands to reason that a Borg cube would be less armed than an ISD, given the fact that their objectives are completely different.
Also: Super Star Destroyers.
Also: Borg Tactical Cubes. Bigger, Meaner version of the Borg Cube.
Borg vessels are designed to be more resistant to systems damage than the conventional ship. remember, even if 78% of the Cube is inoperable, it will remain active and actively regenerate.
Also, Borg Tractor beams do more than just hold you in place, it drains shields (i'd assume absorbs the energy and uses it) and don't forget the cutting beams, it can slice entire sections of a ship out and prepare it for assimilation.
Also, I'm not arguing nanites here, what you have to do is disrupt the connection with the collective. Not an easy feat when your guys are getting assimilated and being taken aboard the borg ships. Since Star wars doesn't have transporting technology, it won't be an easy thing to get your guys back.
Also Ketracel White was a drug and the Jem'Hadar were addicted to it. There was an episode where a small group of JemHadar broke their addiction, so I'd assume the same could happen to everyone else. The drug was a controlling mechanism, a drug addict will do whatever their told to do just to get their next fix.
Also, even if the empire figures out a way to counteract assimilation, the Borg will just start killing mercilessly. Once you take away the option to assimilate, what else is there? then they won't even bother with the stall tactics, they'll just wipe the floor with the empire.
@fluffy_bunny, launching a bunch of weak, unshielded, poorly armed fighters has really no effect on the Borg, even if they use Kamikaze tactics, it would'nt make a dent in a single cube. Unlike the Death Star, there are no construction weaknesses on a cube. No exterior entry points, the borg have to LET you in for you to get in.
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There was also that one species in Voyager/DS9 that was preying on the Borg...
The Borg only seem invincibly powerful because of who they're up against. Time and again, they've shown that they aren't quite so hot when they don't have an overwhelming advantage (in fact, they're almost trivial to defeat once you get a good edge on them). The Dominion on the other hand... they did far better than the Borg ever did after their advantages were stripped away, which is why I say they'd make a better adversary for the Star Wars universe than the Borg ever would.
Trek warships are WAY more powerful than their Star Wars universe equivalents, easily capable with appropriate and available weapon loadout of blasting planets into hot gas. The Enterprise of TNG is roughly equivalent to a Nebulon-B frigate in the Star Wars Universe, and it could be retrofitted easily with higher power torpedo banks capable of generating explosions that shields in either universe couldn't possibly handle.
If we consider how combat would work practically, it would look a lot more like Schlock Mercenary (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ - relying heavily on teleporters where they're available) than what was displayed in the show. The bigger question is why neither universe goes on about stuff like anti-missile systems since you could obviously pack a HUGE warhead with high energy explosive in a Star Wars ship, as well as the effective range of turbolasers, which can glass a planet but seem to have vastly less range in effective ship to ship combat (tracking systems for fast moving targets?). Transporters work at ranges of over 20 kilometers, so you can teleport an antimatter torpedo from extreme range right into a Star Wars ship formation and detonate it, obliterating all strike craft, all smaller vessels, and quite probably either damaging or destroying the larger craft outright depending on the size. Niche units like the Super Star Destroyers and Death Stars don't really factor heavily into a force equation - their shields were stronger than Star Destroyers, but they don't have anything to make up the speed difference, teleporter advantage, and weapon yield that Trek ships can bring to bear from beyond turbo laser range. To say nothing of the extreme cost of supplying such vessels when smaller, more efficient craft could do their jobs for them. The problem is that Trek ships wield range, speed, and firepower far in excess of their Star Wars equivalents.
... ... ...What?!
The argument can only use things in Canon, they've never done anything like that with torpedoes in Canon...
However, speaking of Spacial Distortions, The Son'a have access to weaponry to create rips in Subspace. the ship they're fired upon literally drags the tear across space like a zipper on a jacket...
While I disagree with the quoted section, there are powerful weapons in ST I haven't mentioned. I'm just now remembering everything and I post it as I remember, haven't watched trek in a while. lol
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If the show was more combat centric ala Battlestar Everyone's a Cylon, it would have been used a few times.
This argument goes out the window when you consider that they don't employ tactics like that even when their very survival is on the line. If the Dominion war wasn't dire enough for them to do certain things (despite that the Federation leadership was just fine condoning Section 31's biological warfare and other general nastiness), a war against the Star Wars universe wouldn't be either.
Well, the Federation wouldn't do it. and the Klingons and Romulans didn't do it because the federation would say "No! Bad Species!"
I honestly don't know why the Borg don't do it/didn't do it. I guess they just wanted to hug and assimilate too much (except Wolf 359, that was a bloodbath.)
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