My prediction: like the similar thread before it, a large percentage will say they're smarter than average [user], with a few jokesters saying they're in the bottom.
edit: hey, wait a minute, you're the same guy who made that thread.
i had to change my vote, becuase i only realized afterwards that i was supposed to compare myself to *other MTGS users*, and not the general population.
also: yay, as of me (the 4th vote), it kinda looks like a bell curve? heh
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Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Upon consideration, I'm going to unlock this thread, however keep it civil everyone or I'll be forced to lock it permanently. The previous thread devolved a bit at points.
My prediction: like the similar thread before it, a large percentage will say they're smarter than average [user], with a few jokesters saying they're in the bottom.
edit: hey, wait a minute, you're the same guy who made that thread.
Someone mentionned that they wondered if the spread would chnage if the votes were public. I thought that would be interesting, but having two of the same thread would not be. Similarily, I would think that if I had made the thread soon after, the percentage of people who vote would be lower and they wouldn't be "unbiased".
I figured it had been long enough. There are also a lot of members that are new or have left.
Someone mentionned that they wondered if the spread would chnage if the votes were public. I thought that would be interesting, but having two of the same thread would not be. Similarily, I would think that if I had made the thread soon after, the percentage of people who vote would be lower and they wouldn't be "unbiased".
I figured it had been long enough. There are also a lot of members that are new or have left.
I think a lot of people were confused by the wording of the first thread, where at first glance it was just 'how smart are you' in general, and I'd imagine many people on MTGS were at least over the 50th percentile when it comes to the general public.
Not smart at all. I miss triggers constantly. It's the worst. And I only sorta get priority.
Wait, is the poll referencing MTG ability or just how smart in a general sense?
You can be extremely intelligent and still be an MTG noob or vice versa.
I would put myself in the top 20-40% I know that is a bit wider than was asked and this also comes down to if this is a question of overall IQ or if this is a question about the ability to play the game. If this is about the ability to play the game in relation to other users on sally I would put myself in the top 15-25%. If this is a general IQ question I would probably put myself in the top 30-40% simply because I have graduated college so I assume that's about where I would stand just on that basis alone. Realistically though I don't think I am anything special and would classify myself as a bit of an average college graduate as far as intelligence goes.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
this is actually a bit of a tender topic for me. i know i've been losing my intelligence as i age. it used to be something i got self-esteem ("i'm worthy and unique!") from, but the drastic drop in my intelligence has been hard for me to accept.
do you think intelligence matters much in our society? can someone of intelligence that is low still live a quality life?
anyhow, it is clear, whenever i hang around gamers, how superior their intelligence is to mine. they are able to strategize much better, they are quicker to see things, they can keep a lot more information in their short term memory, they are able to talk more forcefully or in ways that try to influence other people, etc.
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Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
this is actually a bit of a tender topic for me. i know i've been losing my intelligence as i age. it used to be something i got self-esteem ("i'm worthy and unique!") from, but the drastic drop in my intelligence has been hard for me to accept.
do you think intelligence matters much in our society? can someone of intelligence that is low still live a quality life?
anyhow, it is clear, whenever i hang around gamers, how superior their intelligence is to mine. they are able to strategize much better, they are quicker to see things, they can keep a lot more information in their short term memory, they are able to talk more forcefully or in ways that try to influence other people, etc.
Yeah, I don't know if you're joking, but in case you're not - at a certain level of intelligence it's almost worthless to be 'smarter' unless you're in a very narrow set of fields, otherwise it can actively be a hinderance. Most of the smartest people I know can't get out of their own way. And intelligence is so varied, it's pretty much pointless to compare yourself to someone else.
As my signature shows, I'm not the best magic player, but being a good gamer doesn't make you 'smart' - it just usually means you're experienced. I know some unemployed, uneducated 20-somethings who are scary good at magic, and probably much smarter than me in general - but it hasn't exactly served them well.
Jay is right. Being good at Magic isn't about being smart. It all comes down to experience and how much you're willing to get into it. I am not nearly as committed as one of my "aspiring pro" friends. As such, when I play in a game against him, he would never use one of his tournament decks. Instead, he would use something like an all Minotaur deck.
If I had to rank myself, I'd say that I'm probably bottom 25 % in terms of success at Magic.
Most of the smartest people I know can't get out of their own way.
can you elaborate on this? i'm curious what you mean by this.
it might be true that /part/ of the reason that other gamers have such better memory / strategy capabilities etc than me is that they play games much more than me.
And intelligence is so varied, it's pretty much pointless to compare yourself to someone else.
i think it's because i used to be really smart when i was younger [like, elementary school and high school], but that in the past 7-8 years the chronic depression and poor living conditions have really taken their toll on my concentration and memory; and i used to take a lot of pleasure at the quirky and abstract and full-of-wonder ideas that i would effortlessly weave out of nowhere. so, it's a loss of identity kind of thing that makes me feel so insecure. i wouldn't be comparing myself to others, i think, if i was always the intelligence level that i currently am?
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----------------------------
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Most of the smartest people I know can't get out of their own way.
can you elaborate on this? i'm curious what you mean by this.
Have you ever head the expression 'too smart for their own good'? Simply put, 'smart' people who are arrogant about their intelligence tend to hurt themselves socially and professionally because they can't handle not always being right. They have problems like:
- Difficultly respecting authority when they think they're right. They disregard what the boss asked them to do and just do what they think is best, regardless of the realities of the situation. This is probably the biggest one from a professional angle, because they frequently think things like 'time constraints' and 'budgets' aren't worth their time to consider.
- Rationalizing their lack of success as the failings of other people or circumstances.
- Adjusting when smarter people come along and 'challenge' them. Not literally challenge, but challenge the image of themselves they had built up - something you're experiencing right now, and something I went through as a teenager when I had to accept that I was never going to be the best at something.
- Relating to the average person or respecting cultural norms because they either think they're above it or they simply never thought to put any effort into it.
To be clear, this isn't true to all smart people, these are just the areas where intelligence can hinder someone's success. These are also by no means only traits smart people have, but I'm sure most of us have met at least one person who exemplifies these traits. lmgio34 works in Medicine, so I imagine he can name a dozen off the top of his head.
it might be true that /part/ of the reason that other gamers have such better memory / strategy capabilities etc than me is that they play games much more than me.
Skill is entirely about practice. Some people may learn faster (what we call talent), but anyone can learn any skill given enough time and attention. And people who play magic multiple times a week will usually be better at the game than those who don't.
And intelligence is so varied, it's pretty much pointless to compare yourself to someone else.
i think it's because i used to be really smart when i was younger [like, elementary school and high school], but that in the past 7-8 years the chronic depression and poor living conditions have really taken their toll on my concentration and memory; and i used to take a lot of pleasure at the quirky and abstract and full-of-wonder ideas that i would effortlessly weave out of nowhere. so, it's a loss of identity kind of thing that makes me feel so insecure. i wouldn't be comparing myself to others, i think, if i was always the intelligence level that i currently am?
I think you're issue is that you tied your self esteem to your intelligence, which was a mistake. I was brilliant in school as well, off the charts in all aptitude tests, 90th percentile in all intelligence test, etc. For a nerd who doesn't have a lot going, it's easy to latch on to your intelligence to make yourself believe you're superior because of it.
But in reality, raw intelligence matters very little, because in the real world intelligence is not enough. You have to be able to work well with other people, you need to be flexible and adjust to changing circumstance, and you need to be able to follow directions that you don't necessarily agree with.
You're also not somehow at a different 'intelligence level'. You probably just haven't used any of those skills in a while, and all skills atrophy without use. I personally think that it's generally just an uncool thing to believe yourself superior to someone else. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and while there may be people we don't like or don't get along with, their inherent worth as a person is not less than ours because they don't learn as quickly, or don't know how to do something, or don't make the 'optimal' play in magic or whatever. When you base your identity around being better or worse than other people, you're setting yourself up for failure because there will always be someone better than you at something, and people can sense when you're looking down your nose at them. The question should be are you better, or are you the best, but what do you have to offer other people? You don't have to be the best at something to have something to offer, and everyone has something to offer.
- Difficultly respecting authority when they think they're right. They disregard what the boss asked them to do and just do what they think is best, regardless of the realities of the situation. This is probably the biggest one from a professional angle, because they frequently think things like 'time constraints' and 'budgets' aren't worth their time to consider.
- Rationalizing their lack of success as the failings of other people or circumstances.
- Adjusting when smarter people come along and 'challenge' them. Not literally challenge, but challenge the image of themselves they had built up - something you're experiencing right now, and something I went through as a teenager when I had to accept that I was never going to be the best at something.
- Relating to the average person or respecting cultural norms because they either think they're above it or they simply never thought to put any effort into it.
To be clear, this isn't true to all smart people, these are just the areas where intelligence can hinder someone's success. These are also by no means only traits smart people have, but I'm sure most of us have met at least one person who exemplifies these traits. lmgio34 works in Medicine, so I imagine he can name a dozen off the top of his head.
it might be true that /part/ of the reason that other gamers have such better memory / strategy capabilities etc than me is that they play games much more than me.
Skill is entirely about practice. Some people may learn faster (what we call talent), but anyone can learn any skill given enough time and attention. And people who play magic multiple times a week will usually be better at the game than those who don't.
And intelligence is so varied, it's pretty much pointless to compare yourself to someone else.
i think it's because i used to be really smart when i was younger [like, elementary school and high school], but that in the past 7-8 years the chronic depression and poor living conditions have really taken their toll on my concentration and memory; and i used to take a lot of pleasure at the quirky and abstract and full-of-wonder ideas that i would effortlessly weave out of nowhere. so, it's a loss of identity kind of thing that makes me feel so insecure. i wouldn't be comparing myself to others, i think, if i was always the intelligence level that i currently am?
I think you're issue is that you tied your self esteem to your intelligence, which was a mistake. I was brilliant in school as well, off the charts in all aptitude tests, 90th percentile in all intelligence test, etc. For a nerd who doesn't have a lot going, it's easy to latch on to your intelligence to make yourself believe you're superior because of it.
But in reality, raw intelligence matters very little, because in the real world intelligence is not enough. You have to be able to work well with other people, you need to be flexible and adjust to changing circumstance, and you need to be able to follow directions that you don't necessarily agree with.
Y
Sometimes, it's also the inflexibility of others to adjust to the needs of others that's also the obstacle to find a "place" with a sort of different types of intelligences. This is mostly the result of conditioning in our society to value social skills over all than anything, because people only know how to manage people they were taught to manage. I like this talk by Temple Grandin:
Her point is simply that some people suck at social skills, and aren't always to be great at it and it's up to us "normal people" to help those people find a niche to help them help themselves to unlock their full potential. It's not that people don't "try," it's the way we structure society in valuing certain skills and leaving us underdeveloped as a society in others. And it's really hard for us in society to admit that those of us who manage other people have to change ourselves so we can better manage others, and in some cases it means we, yes, have to change the system not just the individual to change for the system. It works both ways if you want value added over time as value added does not exist day one with the exception of very few jobs.
I feel that, people need to change for the better, but also need to understand that society itself is not really forthright with "good jobs" or really engaing people with education, either. As jobs do not want to train, and are more looking to hire their employees best friend to circumnavigate the real hard work of interviewing and checking the knowledge of various candidates. Overvaluing social skills leaves the development of brilliant minds on the side that would be better off in some of those positions. When people stop playing make believe that you have to train and you must adapt to also assimilate that new cog, is whenever people can finally get the total value out of people who are "outside the norm."
Otherwise, you have people with an ineptitude living on disability insurance and other socialized skills, because we as a society are too stupid to put people to work because we ourselves are too lazy to change as well.
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Life is a beautiful engineer, yet a brutal scientist.
Sometimes, it's also the inflexibility of others to adjust to the needs of others that's also the obstacle to find a "place" with a sort of different types of intelligences. This is mostly the result of conditioning in our society to value social skills over all than anything, because people only know how to manage people they were taught to manage.
Honestly? That really only applies to my last bullet. I'm not talking about autism spectrum disorders here, and you don't have to be a social butterfly, but you do need to be able to at least follow directions.
Gawd dawmn, where did the "Intelligence" = "Magic skill" come from? Kill it with fire. Also, some people seem to be under the delusion that intelligence and social skills are inversely proportional :/
Also you don't get "Smarter" or "Dumber" over time. It is normal to find a degradation of certain mental characteristics with age (after 25 usually) but this doesn't make you dumber and IQ tests generally take age into consideration. Having a worse memory or losing practice does not make you dumber.
Jay, mind adding another red text to the OP that explains that this has nothing to do with magic skill?
I'm a izzet mage with leanings towards the Golgari. So I know for certain that my IQ is at least 10 percent higher than the average gruul / boros mage.
The people in debate routinely blow me away with their arguments and ideas, so I don't feel comfortable going any higher than 60-70% answer. Plus going to college has been a loud wake up call that I'm really not all that smart relative to what I might have thought as a high school sophomore or so.
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"Proving god exists isn't hard. Proving god is God is the tricky part" - Roommate
Doesn't matter. I can handle myself in academics and mental challenges, but there's always going to be someone a little bit smarter. The thing is, smart people do dumb things all the time, and dumb people have strokes of genius all the time.
All I know, is that if there's a problem, I can trust myself to be able to come up with a solution.
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
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Keep in mind this is asking where you are compared to other MTGS users, not the general public
edit: hey, wait a minute, you're the same guy who made that thread.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/water-cooler-talk/462050-how-intelligent-are-you
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Not smart at all. I miss triggers constantly. It's the worst. And I only sorta get priority.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
also: yay, as of me (the 4th vote), it kinda looks like a bell curve? heh
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Someone mentionned that they wondered if the spread would chnage if the votes were public. I thought that would be interesting, but having two of the same thread would not be. Similarily, I would think that if I had made the thread soon after, the percentage of people who vote would be lower and they wouldn't be "unbiased".
I figured it had been long enough. There are also a lot of members that are new or have left.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Wait, is the poll referencing MTG ability or just how smart in a general sense?
You can be extremely intelligent and still be an MTG noob or vice versa.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
do you think intelligence matters much in our society? can someone of intelligence that is low still live a quality life?
anyhow, it is clear, whenever i hang around gamers, how superior their intelligence is to mine. they are able to strategize much better, they are quicker to see things, they can keep a lot more information in their short term memory, they are able to talk more forcefully or in ways that try to influence other people, etc.
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
As my signature shows, I'm not the best magic player, but being a good gamer doesn't make you 'smart' - it just usually means you're experienced. I know some unemployed, uneducated 20-somethings who are scary good at magic, and probably much smarter than me in general - but it hasn't exactly served them well.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
If I had to rank myself, I'd say that I'm probably bottom 25 % in terms of success at Magic.
can you elaborate on this? i'm curious what you mean by this.
it might be true that /part/ of the reason that other gamers have such better memory / strategy capabilities etc than me is that they play games much more than me.
i think it's because i used to be really smart when i was younger [like, elementary school and high school], but that in the past 7-8 years the chronic depression and poor living conditions have really taken their toll on my concentration and memory; and i used to take a lot of pleasure at the quirky and abstract and full-of-wonder ideas that i would effortlessly weave out of nowhere. so, it's a loss of identity kind of thing that makes me feel so insecure. i wouldn't be comparing myself to others, i think, if i was always the intelligence level that i currently am?
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
- Difficultly respecting authority when they think they're right. They disregard what the boss asked them to do and just do what they think is best, regardless of the realities of the situation. This is probably the biggest one from a professional angle, because they frequently think things like 'time constraints' and 'budgets' aren't worth their time to consider.
- Rationalizing their lack of success as the failings of other people or circumstances.
- Adjusting when smarter people come along and 'challenge' them. Not literally challenge, but challenge the image of themselves they had built up - something you're experiencing right now, and something I went through as a teenager when I had to accept that I was never going to be the best at something.
- Relating to the average person or respecting cultural norms because they either think they're above it or they simply never thought to put any effort into it.
To be clear, this isn't true to all smart people, these are just the areas where intelligence can hinder someone's success. These are also by no means only traits smart people have, but I'm sure most of us have met at least one person who exemplifies these traits. lmgio34 works in Medicine, so I imagine he can name a dozen off the top of his head.
Skill is entirely about practice. Some people may learn faster (what we call talent), but anyone can learn any skill given enough time and attention. And people who play magic multiple times a week will usually be better at the game than those who don't.
I think you're issue is that you tied your self esteem to your intelligence, which was a mistake. I was brilliant in school as well, off the charts in all aptitude tests, 90th percentile in all intelligence test, etc. For a nerd who doesn't have a lot going, it's easy to latch on to your intelligence to make yourself believe you're superior because of it.
But in reality, raw intelligence matters very little, because in the real world intelligence is not enough. You have to be able to work well with other people, you need to be flexible and adjust to changing circumstance, and you need to be able to follow directions that you don't necessarily agree with.
You're also not somehow at a different 'intelligence level'. You probably just haven't used any of those skills in a while, and all skills atrophy without use. I personally think that it's generally just an uncool thing to believe yourself superior to someone else. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and while there may be people we don't like or don't get along with, their inherent worth as a person is not less than ours because they don't learn as quickly, or don't know how to do something, or don't make the 'optimal' play in magic or whatever. When you base your identity around being better or worse than other people, you're setting yourself up for failure because there will always be someone better than you at something, and people can sense when you're looking down your nose at them. The question should be are you better, or are you the best, but what do you have to offer other people? You don't have to be the best at something to have something to offer, and everyone has something to offer.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Sometimes, it's also the inflexibility of others to adjust to the needs of others that's also the obstacle to find a "place" with a sort of different types of intelligences. This is mostly the result of conditioning in our society to value social skills over all than anything, because people only know how to manage people they were taught to manage. I like this talk by Temple Grandin:
http://www.ted.com/talks/temple_grandin_the_world_needs_all_kinds_of_minds?language=en
Her point is simply that some people suck at social skills, and aren't always to be great at it and it's up to us "normal people" to help those people find a niche to help them help themselves to unlock their full potential. It's not that people don't "try," it's the way we structure society in valuing certain skills and leaving us underdeveloped as a society in others. And it's really hard for us in society to admit that those of us who manage other people have to change ourselves so we can better manage others, and in some cases it means we, yes, have to change the system not just the individual to change for the system. It works both ways if you want value added over time as value added does not exist day one with the exception of very few jobs.
I feel that, people need to change for the better, but also need to understand that society itself is not really forthright with "good jobs" or really engaing people with education, either. As jobs do not want to train, and are more looking to hire their employees best friend to circumnavigate the real hard work of interviewing and checking the knowledge of various candidates. Overvaluing social skills leaves the development of brilliant minds on the side that would be better off in some of those positions. When people stop playing make believe that you have to train and you must adapt to also assimilate that new cog, is whenever people can finally get the total value out of people who are "outside the norm."
Otherwise, you have people with an ineptitude living on disability insurance and other socialized skills, because we as a society are too stupid to put people to work because we ourselves are too lazy to change as well.
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Also you don't get "Smarter" or "Dumber" over time. It is normal to find a degradation of certain mental characteristics with age (after 25 usually) but this doesn't make you dumber and IQ tests generally take age into consideration. Having a worse memory or losing practice does not make you dumber.
Jay, mind adding another red text to the OP that explains that this has nothing to do with magic skill?
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
All I know, is that if there's a problem, I can trust myself to be able to come up with a solution.
But why male models?
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Rules Advisor
Modern: BRGLiving EndGRB
Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB
WURNarset NostalgicRUW
UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU
UBlue BraidsU
GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WBRAleshacratsBRW
UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU
URGYasova the ThreateningGRU
BGGlissa the ArticiferGB
WUSygg MerfolkUW
RSquee, Value NabobR