Which would be great if this was solely a matter of personal choice, but it affects everyone.
Right now near my hometown, there's an infant daycare that's had 5 cases of measles crop up in the last week. These are children who are too young to have had their immunizations, but because of the recklessness of parents making the "choice" not to vaccinate their children, these lives are now at risk.
The vast majority of libertarians agree that while you have the freedom to choose what to do to yourself and others, you should also be held responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's at least the opinion I have when it comes to vaccination.
The personal choice issue is an entirely separate argument. I'm talking about the misinformation being spread by a doctor and public figure talking about vaccines causing mental disorders.
Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
The vast majority of libertarians agree that while you have the freedom to choose what to do to yourself and others, you should also be held responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's at least the opinion I have when it comes to vaccination.
And how would you propose holding people accountable for this?
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Given that Paul did graduate medical school, did get licensed by the National Board of Medical Examiners, and did initially get certified by the American Board of Opthalmology, it seems very likely that he is a competent medical professional. Your insinuation to the contrary is misleading. Paul's recertification "irregularity" is evidence of self-serving laziness rather than a lack of medical knowledge - it's not like he got his doctorate from a diploma mill. It is a separate reason to dislike Paul independent of this one. And so it is entirely reasonable for Jay13x to say that "he should know better".
Your encyclopedic knowledge of irrelevant embarrassing facts about public figures is, as always, impressive, but, as always, I wish you displayed a better grasp of what is relevant.
And for what it's worth, Paul has "clarified" his remarks: he thinks vaccines are safe and everybody should get them. His stance is purely one of government vs. parental rights. (Which is still dumb. I'm not defending the guy, but I won't see him criticized for stuff he does not actually believe, say, or do.)
Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
We can't be absolutely 100% certain that the sun will come up tomorrow. When dealing with empirical evidence (i.e. any scientific claim whatsoever), there is no certainty. But there is a threshold beyond which we can confidently say, "Yes, this is true". And the safety of vaccinations is well beyond that threshold.
[quote from="Jay13x »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/water-cooler-talk/590904-rand-paul-chris-christie-pander-to-anti-vaxxers?comment=25"]The personal choice issue is an entirely separate argument. I'm talking about the misinformation being spread by a doctor and public figure talking about vaccines causing mental disorders.
Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
Aspirin can cause liver damage. Many anti-inflammatory drugs inhibit the immune system. 100% safety is not the standard by which medicine are measured.
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Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
Nothing is 100% safe. Safe is a matter of perspective. There are, of course, risks with doing anything. The ceiling could collapse on me as I write this. The computer could overheat, catch fire and burn me. But would you consider those reasonable risks? As I mentioned, we're talking about very low risk levels.
The Disneyland Measles Outbreak has resulted in more measles cases in the US in just 30 days that we experience most years. And it's not the demographics of people who are visiting Disneyland that's changed. It's the vaccination rates.
And for what it's worth, Paul has "clarified" his remarks: he thinks vaccines are safe and everybody should get them. His stance is purely one of government vs. parental rights. (Which is still dumb. I'm not defending the guy, but I won't see him criticized for stuff he does not actually believe, say, or do.)
Thanks for posting that! It's good to know he reversed those off the cuff remarks.
Whether or not everyone should get vaccinated is another issue. I personally believe it's a public safety issue, because every unvaccinated child out there is, at the very least, a potential vector for children who can't get vaccinated to be infected.
Which would be great if this was solely a matter of personal choice, but it affects everyone.
Right now near my hometown, there's an infant daycare that's had 5 cases of measles crop up in the last week. These are children who are too young to have had their immunizations, but because of the recklessness of parents making the "choice" not to vaccinate their children, these lives are now at risk.
The vast majority of libertarians agree that while you have the freedom to choose what to do to yourself and others, you should also be held responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's at least the opinion I have when it comes to vaccination.
The vast majority of libertarians also agree that you can't weasel out of certain obligations without a good reason, either. National security is an obligation, which makes the vaccination a necessary evil without extreme cases. Thus far, the anti-vaccine movement has yet to have any science to back it up. The humility, though, for many of us on the conservative/libertarian side of the political spectrum have far too much a habit of using the government as a boogieman and to stop not allocating that sometimes the use of force is necessary to extract better quality of life for the collective as well as the individual. Compulsory education and the extension of that through vaccination have held aloft the light of liberty beyond all else for low hanging fruit for individual empowerment.
Sometimes, rather than reinventing the wheel, we need to just admit "this thing works." It's no different than what Jefferson did with the original national bank.
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I should also note here that I had measles as a kid. I was my county's only case that year, and I was one of the small percentage for whom the vaccine failed (funny story, I met the Infectious Disease program director of the state I used to live him and told my story recently). My father worked at a university at the time with a lot of foreign students (mainly African) that were unvaccinated.
Measles is NOT a fun disease. It is a miserable, painful experience, especially for a child, and one of my earliest memories should not be from wondering whether or not I was going to die because of it.
Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
I don't think anyone ever claimed that they are 100% safe.
I do believe they claim that there is no evidence thus far to show that vaccines cause severe side-effects on an identifiable number, and they claim that any benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the negatives.
Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
I don't think anyone ever claimed that they are 100% safe.
I do believe they claim that there is no evidence thus far to show that vaccines cause severe side-effects on an identifiable number, and they claim that any benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the negatives.
Unless you want us to have smallpox still around.
Smallpox isn't really a great example, as I don't believe we actually vaccinate for smallpox in the US anymore (not since the 70's).
The issue with the MMR is that Measles was almost eradicated in the US. I mean, look at this. In 50 years we went from Millions of cases a year to maybe a hundred.
The smallpox example is meant to show the overwhelming positive that vaccinations can bring.
The anti-vaccination folks tend to say that vaccinations can lead to problems, but virtually all of those arguments are void when compared to the benefit of smallpox vaccination.
It's also meant to illustrate the probability that the anti-vaccination folks straight up forget what could happen WITHOUT vaccinations. Imagine what would happen if smallpox was reintroduced to some major population area such as NYC. Pandemonium and the probable collapse of infrastructure most likely.
Plus not all vaccines are necessary. For example, before the chickenpox vaccine hit the market in 1995 about 100 people died each year from chickenpox. More people drown in bathtubs each year (about 330). Note that this is an actual statistic and not just a made up one like "you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects".
It's also meant to illustrate the probability that the anti-vaccination folks straight up forget what could happen WITHOUT vaccinations. Imagine what would happen if smallpox was reintroduced to some major population area such as NYC. Pandemonium and the probable collapse of infrastructure most likely.
Or, y'know, ******* POLIO. We know exactly what would happen if there were no polio vaccine. We know this by looking at what happened before there was one.
Plus not all vaccines are necessary. For example, before the chickenpox vaccine hit the market in 1995 about 100 people died each year from chickenpox. More people drown in bathtubs each year (about 330). Note that this is an actual statistic and not just a made up one like "you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects".
You get shingles from getting infected with chickenpox at a young age. The virus burrows into your nerves and stay there. Every once in a while they decide to come out. This leads to bumpy rashes + incredible pain for a couple of weeks.
Furthermore, chickenpox can be deadly to adults. While most people do get chickenpox in their youth and so probably won't be infected in adulthood, this isn't always the case.
There are plenty of reasons to have a chickenpox vaccination.
The chickenpox virus never goes away. It stays dormant in your nerve tissue. When it becomes active again, it becomes shingles, which is far worse. Shingles is a quite painful skin rash that runs the risk of having more severe complications.
Or, y'know, ******* POLIO. We know exactly what would happen if there were no polio vaccine. We know this by looking at what happened before there was one.
I do find it funny that just a few months back i was handling multiple rehab cases where patients showed secondary complications from polio (ah the wonders of living in a third world country), i say this because seeing how americans recoil at the idea of polio makes me realize the QoL gap i endure.
As for the topic at hand, i find it stupid not to follow at least the basic vaccination procedures, things like measels, mumps, chickenpox, MMR, etc SHOULD be done simply because the potential risks you avoid far outweigh the potential for serious side-effects (in that same point i also find it interesting that you guys consider the possible side effects more impactful/damaging than the ACTUAL risks of acquiring these diseases).
Flu Vaccine however? no way bub, me and my kids are fine having the flu a couple of days a year, wont kill anyone and seems redundant.
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I do find it funny that just a few months back i was handling multiple rehab cases where patients showed secondary complications from polio (ah the wonders of living in a third world country), i say this because seeing how americans recoil at the idea of polio makes me realize the QoL gap i endure.
Apparently polio is enjoying a resurgence as well due to anti-vaccination rhetoric in the Third World.
Flu Vaccine however? no way bub, me and my kids are fine having the flu a couple of days a year, wont kill anyone and seems redundant.
What? First of all, the flu does kill people. Secondly, even when the flu is just a few-day inconvenience, the vaccine is just a two-second inconvenience. It's not the most urgently necessary medical precaution in the universe, but it's still a very good idea.
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Flu Vaccine however? no way bub, me and my kids are fine having the flu a couple of days a year, wont kill anyone and seems redundant.
The Flu is one of the top killers of Americans. You're not getting the flu shot to protect yourself, you're getting it to protect grandma, to protect the immunocompromisd, children, etc. In the case of more severe strains, you ARE getting it to protect yourself, because it kills those with healthy immune systems faster.
Most people think it's fine because they get a cold every year, not the flu. People have a bad habit of confusing the two when they get sick every year.
Sorry i've had the flu a couple of times, and while not the nicest experience it was nowhere near my experience with Dengue Fever... my point being I personally have no problem skipping the Flu vaccine and have no problem currently not enforcing it on my kids.
You do make a valid point regarding immuno-compromised individuals that i had not considered but in that case making sure i follow and teach proper safety behavior (masks, handkerchiefs, handwashing, etc) i feel should be sufficient in regards to my responsability to others due to my choice not to vaccinate.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Sorry i've had the flu a couple of times, and while not the nicest experience it was nowhere near my experience with Dengue Fever... my point being I personally have no problem skipping the Flu vaccine and have no problem currently not enforcing it on my kids.
You do make a valid point regarding immuno-compromised individuals that i had not considered but in that case making sure i follow and teach proper safety behavior (masks, handkerchiefs, handwashing, etc) i feel should be sufficient in regards to my responsability to others due to my choice not to vaccinate.
*Shrug*
I just try to correct people that the reason you get the Flu shot isn't for you, its to protect other people from you. I would recommend your kids getting the shot at least. School are amazing transmission vectors and kids aren't very good with hygiene, and the schools don't (or can't) do a good job of protecting kids who have issues from your kids' germs.
Sorry i've had the flu a couple of times, and while not the nicest experience it was nowhere near my experience with Dengue Fever... my point being I personally have no problem skipping the Flu vaccine and have no problem currently not enforcing it on my kids.
Well, the last time I got the flu (only time, imo, since I've never been this sick before) I was bedridden for about 3 days and literally couldn't do anything without help. Then I suffered severe body weakness and cough and such for a good month or so afterwards.
Sorry i've had the flu a couple of times, and while not the nicest experience it was nowhere near my experience with Dengue Fever...
"Not as bad as Dengue fever" is not exactly a sparkling recommendation. And it's not like you have to choose between the two diseases - getting vaccinated for the flu doesn't mean you get Dengue instead. There is absolutely no reason not to get a flu shot.
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Serious question: why not make vaccines mandatory for anyone without a confirmed medical exemption? It's a social issue rather than a personal choice, this seems like a good time for governments to step up.
Also: The USA's habit of having Democrats/Republicans say one thing then the other group saying the exact opposite for reasons other than good sense is baffling to me in NZ.
The chickenpox virus never goes away. It stays dormant in your nerve tissue. When it becomes active again, it becomes shingles, which is far worse. Shingles is a quite painful skin rash that runs the risk of having more severe complications.
What ought we to think about parents who are given an opportunity to spare their children severe pain with no downside, and elect not to? "No, I'd rather my kid suffer because science is too big and scary for me!" These are terrible people.
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The vast majority of libertarians agree that while you have the freedom to choose what to do to yourself and others, you should also be held responsible for the consequences of those actions. That's at least the opinion I have when it comes to vaccination.
Like urweak said, how can we absolutely certain that vaccines are 100% safe to administer?
And how would you propose holding people accountable for this?
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Your encyclopedic knowledge of irrelevant embarrassing facts about public figures is, as always, impressive, but, as always, I wish you displayed a better grasp of what is relevant.
And for what it's worth, Paul has "clarified" his remarks: he thinks vaccines are safe and everybody should get them. His stance is purely one of government vs. parental rights. (Which is still dumb. I'm not defending the guy, but I won't see him criticized for stuff he does not actually believe, say, or do.)
We can't be absolutely 100% certain that the sun will come up tomorrow. When dealing with empirical evidence (i.e. any scientific claim whatsoever), there is no certainty. But there is a threshold beyond which we can confidently say, "Yes, this is true". And the safety of vaccinations is well beyond that threshold.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Aspirin can cause liver damage. Many anti-inflammatory drugs inhibit the immune system. 100% safety is not the standard by which medicine are measured.
The Disneyland Measles Outbreak has resulted in more measles cases in the US in just 30 days that we experience most years. And it's not the demographics of people who are visiting Disneyland that's changed. It's the vaccination rates.
Thanks for posting that! It's good to know he reversed those off the cuff remarks.
Whether or not everyone should get vaccinated is another issue. I personally believe it's a public safety issue, because every unvaccinated child out there is, at the very least, a potential vector for children who can't get vaccinated to be infected.
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The vast majority of libertarians also agree that you can't weasel out of certain obligations without a good reason, either. National security is an obligation, which makes the vaccination a necessary evil without extreme cases. Thus far, the anti-vaccine movement has yet to have any science to back it up. The humility, though, for many of us on the conservative/libertarian side of the political spectrum have far too much a habit of using the government as a boogieman and to stop not allocating that sometimes the use of force is necessary to extract better quality of life for the collective as well as the individual. Compulsory education and the extension of that through vaccination have held aloft the light of liberty beyond all else for low hanging fruit for individual empowerment.
Sometimes, rather than reinventing the wheel, we need to just admit "this thing works." It's no different than what Jefferson did with the original national bank.
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Measles is NOT a fun disease. It is a miserable, painful experience, especially for a child, and one of my earliest memories should not be from wondering whether or not I was going to die because of it.
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I don't think anyone ever claimed that they are 100% safe.
I do believe they claim that there is no evidence thus far to show that vaccines cause severe side-effects on an identifiable number, and they claim that any benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the negatives.
Unless you want us to have smallpox still around.
Smallpox isn't really a great example, as I don't believe we actually vaccinate for smallpox in the US anymore (not since the 70's).
The issue with the MMR is that Measles was almost eradicated in the US. I mean, look at this. In 50 years we went from Millions of cases a year to maybe a hundred.
And now we're working our way back up.
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The anti-vaccination folks tend to say that vaccinations can lead to problems, but virtually all of those arguments are void when compared to the benefit of smallpox vaccination.
It's also meant to illustrate the probability that the anti-vaccination folks straight up forget what could happen WITHOUT vaccinations. Imagine what would happen if smallpox was reintroduced to some major population area such as NYC. Pandemonium and the probable collapse of infrastructure most likely.
Or, y'know, ******* POLIO. We know exactly what would happen if there were no polio vaccine. We know this by looking at what happened before there was one.
Get to the point....
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You get shingles from getting infected with chickenpox at a young age. The virus burrows into your nerves and stay there. Every once in a while they decide to come out. This leads to bumpy rashes + incredible pain for a couple of weeks.
Furthermore, chickenpox can be deadly to adults. While most people do get chickenpox in their youth and so probably won't be infected in adulthood, this isn't always the case.
There are plenty of reasons to have a chickenpox vaccination.
As for the topic at hand, i find it stupid not to follow at least the basic vaccination procedures, things like measels, mumps, chickenpox, MMR, etc SHOULD be done simply because the potential risks you avoid far outweigh the potential for serious side-effects (in that same point i also find it interesting that you guys consider the possible side effects more impactful/damaging than the ACTUAL risks of acquiring these diseases).
Flu Vaccine however? no way bub, me and my kids are fine having the flu a couple of days a year, wont kill anyone and seems redundant.
Eh. For regular folks, sure. However, it's still a useful vaccine for people working in hospitals or places where they work with elderly a lot.
What? First of all, the flu does kill people. Secondly, even when the flu is just a few-day inconvenience, the vaccine is just a two-second inconvenience. It's not the most urgently necessary medical precaution in the universe, but it's still a very good idea.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Most people think it's fine because they get a cold every year, not the flu. People have a bad habit of confusing the two when they get sick every year.
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You do make a valid point regarding immuno-compromised individuals that i had not considered but in that case making sure i follow and teach proper safety behavior (masks, handkerchiefs, handwashing, etc) i feel should be sufficient in regards to my responsability to others due to my choice not to vaccinate.
*Shrug*
I just try to correct people that the reason you get the Flu shot isn't for you, its to protect other people from you. I would recommend your kids getting the shot at least. School are amazing transmission vectors and kids aren't very good with hygiene, and the schools don't (or can't) do a good job of protecting kids who have issues from your kids' germs.
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Well, the last time I got the flu (only time, imo, since I've never been this sick before) I was bedridden for about 3 days and literally couldn't do anything without help. Then I suffered severe body weakness and cough and such for a good month or so afterwards.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Also: The USA's habit of having Democrats/Republicans say one thing then the other group saying the exact opposite for reasons other than good sense is baffling to me in NZ.
Art is life itself.
So that makes the chickenpox vaccine necessary?
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candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.