This just blows my mind. Rand Paul is a medical doctor, he should know better. When did pandering to the anti-vaccination crowd become a thing? Especially when that pandering includes the myth that vaccines can cause 'mental problems'.
What's more, why do these Republicans even care? Anti-vaxxers lean heavily leftwards. It's like hearing Obama pander to anti-evolutionists.
I get Rand Paul's Libertarian argument about choice, but the rest is just ridiculous.
The issue here, and what people aren't realizing, is that it's a major public safety issue to have unvaccinated kids in public spaces. It's not really something where personal preferences are really relevant. We're seeing outbreaks of preventable diseases we haven't seen in 50 years because of these people.
I think this is just the inevitable conclusion of the mainstream Republican party's opposition to Obama on everything. He says he's pro-vaccination, so they're all scrambling to see who can question him and spin it in the best light (to be about "personal choice" or "state's rights" or whatever garbage they can come up with).
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God damn it. I had some actual respect for Rand Paul, but these dip*****s apparently do not understand, or refuse to do so, that this is not just a matter of personal preference. Not only because they potentially allow their children to be struck by horrible diseases, but also those of others. If I lived in the US, I'd go to their homes and beat them with a bat branded with the words 'herd immunity' until that's the only thing they are able to say.
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Okay, let me explain something. Just because something is a possible side effect doesn't make it likely or even remotely probable.
If you read the rest of the statement from the VIS, you get this gem:
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.
Brain damage is so unlikely that we're not even sure it's a side effect of the vaccine. In most cases, these are problems associated with a possible fever, and are the result of children who are most likely already predisposed to convulsions that would cause brain damage.
As ridiculous as this is, it's not as though Rand Paul and Chris Christie aren't known for being absolutely ridiculous. If either of these guys make it anywhere in the primary, I'll be surprised.
Okay, let me explain something. Just because something is a possible side effect doesn't make it likely or even remotely probable.
If you read the rest of the statement from the VIS, you get this gem:
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.
Brain damage is so unlikely that we're not even sure it's a side effect of the vaccine. In most cases, these are problems associated with a possible fever, and are the result of children who are most likely already predisposed to convulsions that would cause brain damage.
Regardless of how rare it may be, what Paul is saying is technically true. That's the point. Also, that little "gem" just goes to show that we don't fully understand all the risks of vaccines.
The article itself is just a hit piece meant to get people all worked up. And judging by the responses in this thread, it worked very well.
Regardless of how rare it may be, what Paul is saying is technically true.
'Technically true' is at best disingenuous. 'Evolution is just a theory' is technically true, but that doesn't really reflect the reality of what we're talking about.
That's the point. Also, that little "gem" just goes to show that we don't fully understand all the risks of vaccines.
Yeah... that's not true at all. Even if you were right, we're talking about 1 in 10,000 that it might even be a concern (for clarification, that's 1 in 1,000 who might get encephalitis, 1 in 10 of those who might get a serious complication). To put this number in perspective, you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects.
Here is the reality: There have been dozens of studies into the safety of Vaccines from every conceivable angle. And the consensus is there is no causal link between the vaccine itself and things like autism. The strongest case against Vaccines came from Andrew Wakefield's study, and he was proved to be a fraud looking to financially benefit from an alternative 'test' and had faked his data.
What Rand Paul said was:
I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.
A pretty clear reference to the Autism debacle (mostly because what else could he be possibly talking about, there aren't really any other mental disorders that have been attempted to be linked to vaccines). He was referring to vaccines in general.
The issue here is that people are falling victim to the false causation fallacy. Their child develops a mental illness, and they want a reason why. Why did this happen to my child. So they start looking for reasons. And one of the tragic issues here is the MMR vaccine is given sometime between 12 and 15 months, which also happens to be the time most parents start noticing signs of autism in their children, or when a variety of problems become apparent - some of them seemingly quickly.
But that happens in unvaccinated children, too. And if it was actually cause by vaccines, which are given equally among genders, why is there such a huge gender gap in rates of autism? A correlation does not imply causation.
Not vaccinating your children is dangerous, and as these anti-vaxxers spread, we're seeing more and more outbreaks of previously preventable diseases.
The article itself is just a hit piece meant to get people all worked up. And judging by the responses in this thread, it worked very well.
I don't care about the article, it was just the first link I could find with a quote. He sounds just as stupid on Breitbart, they just don't comment on it.
If you think this is a partisan thing, I'd re-examine who actually has commented on this thread.
Regardless of how rare it may be, what Paul is saying is technically true.
'Technically true' is at best disingenuous. 'Evolution is just a theory' is technically true, but that doesn't really reflect the reality of what we're talking about.
Yeah... that's not true at all. Even if you were right, we're talking about 1 in 10,000 that it might even be a concern (for clarification, that's 1 in 1,000 who might get encephalitis, 1 in 10 of those who might get a serious complication). To put this number in perspective, you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects.
Aka, when all else fails, make up a completely random statistic to support your argument.
Here is the reality: There have been dozens of studies into the safety of Vaccines from every conceivable angle. And the consensus is there is no causal link between the vaccine itself and things like autism. The strongest case against Vaccines came from Andrew Wakefield's study, and he was proved to be a fraud looking to financially benefit from an alternative 'test' and had faked his data.
What Rand Paul said was:
I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.
A pretty clear reference to the Autism debacle (mostly because what else could he be possibly talking about, there aren't really any other mental disorders that have been attempted to be linked to vaccines). He was referring to vaccines in general.
The issue here is that people are falling victim to the false causation fallacy. Their child develops a mental illness, and they want a reason why. Why did this happen to my child. So they start looking for reasons. And one of the tragic issues here is the MMR vaccine is given sometime between 12 and 15 months, which also happens to be the time most parents start noticing signs of autism in their children, or when a variety of problems become apparent - some of them seemingly quickly.
But that happens in unvaccinated children, too. And if it was actually cause by vaccines, which are given equally among genders, why is there such a huge gender gap in rates of autism? A correlation does not imply causation.
Not vaccinating your children is dangerous, and as these anti-vaxxers spread, we're seeing more and more outbreaks of previously preventable diseases.
Why are you rambling about autism? I never once said anything about that, nor did Paul. Maybe he is talking about something similar to this womens case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ztiAN9k584 Are you just looking for an argument to push your agenda? Because you sunk your teeth in there really quick and starting going on about autism.
Also, to be fair here. There have been cases of out breaks within communities with vaccinated children. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions that it's because of a greater number of unvaccinated children. Vaccines aren't 100% effect, but with herd immunity, they don't need to be.
My whole point is that Paul and the CDC seem to agree. Yet because he is a politician it's easier to go after him then it is the CDC. Even more so when he is lumped in with a nut job like Christie.
I wasn't saying that they are. The anti-science part is the idea that people should be able to choose to not get their kids vaccinated, despite the risks being shown to outweigh the very minimal chances of anything going wrong. Vaccines have been shown to work and resulting problems from them are extremely rare. The children don't have a choice in the matter, so parents should be forced to be responsible.
I wasn't saying that they are. The anti-science part is the idea that people should be able to choose to not get their kids vaccinated, despite the risks being shown to outweigh the very minimal chances of anything going wrong. Vaccines have been shown to work and resulting problems from them are extremely rare. The children don't have a choice in the matter, so parents should be forced to be responsible.
That's not anti-science. That's people wanting limited government.
Plus not all vaccines are necessary. For example, before the chickenpox vaccine hit the market in 1995 about 100 people died each year from chickenpox. More people drown in bathtubs each year (about 330). Note that this is an actual statistic and not just a made up one like "you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects".
Also, that little "gem" just goes to show that we don't fully understand all the risks of vaccines.
There is no evidence to correlate any genuine side effect with vaccinations. Rare incidents can occur with routine vaccinations, such as the woman you linked to. And we know that vaccinations can fail horribly and lead to severe side effects, as seen in the 1960s (.. I think it was) and with the flu vaccination they made that year.
But the attempt to just claim all vaccinations can be bad doesn't make sense. If there are severe side effects with the routine vaccinations given out, we would have seen it by now.
I don't believe anyone ever argued that vaccinations are completely safe. They did argue that we have no evidence to link autism with vaccinations, and there is no evidence to link vaccinations to genuine side-effects in general.
In any case, I just come back to my old favorite when it comes to the vaccination "debate". **** you. I don't want to die to smallpox.
I wasn't saying that they are. The anti-science part is the idea that people should be able to choose to not get their kids vaccinated, despite the risks being shown to outweigh the very minimal chances of anything going wrong. Vaccines have been shown to work and resulting problems from them are extremely rare. The children don't have a choice in the matter, so parents should be forced to be responsible.
That's not anti-science. That's people wanting limited government.
Yeah, limited government **** yeah! We should also get rid of driver's licenses. They're just a consequence of government overreach as well. And why do we have food and health inspections?
Plus not all vaccines are necessary. For example, before the chickenpox vaccine hit the market in 1995 about 100 people died each year from chickenpox. More people drown in bathtubs each year (about 330). Note that this is an actual statistic and not just a made up one like "you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects".
Yeah, because only death is a possible consequence of any disease, right?
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What are these people going to say to there children who cannot walk because they got polio a totally preventable and curable disease. Kids you cannot walk but at least you are not autistic. Is that going to make these parents feel good about themselves?
Regardless of how rare it may be, what Paul is saying is technically true. That's the point. Also, that little "gem" just goes to show that we don't fully understand all the risks of vaccines.
The risk of not having those shots are very much real,. The risk of having them are unfounded,. I know which risk I would be willing to take,.
Yes, but you're clearly missing my point if you really think I believe that. My point was technicalities in science don't always reflect the reality of public perception.
For instance, the CDC does have a patent on an Ebola strain. Conspiracy theorists and idiots postulate from this technically true fact that the US invented Ebola. The reality is that they had to for researchers to be able to have access to the virus without paying royalties.
Aka, when all else fails, make up a completely random statistic to support your argument.
Okay, so I used Australia's Health Department website which was actually talking about measles risks in the vaccine section (I'm not an immunologist so I didn't know the figures offhand). So lets start again and I'll cite this time. The 'brain damage' issue you're talking about is probably coming from the risk of Febrile Seizure, which is 8 out of 10,000. The number varies whether it's the MMRV or the MMR vaccine, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, that's the higher statistic. Febrile Seizures aren't dangerous when it's a short seizures, and 95% of the time children will not experience serious side effects. It's the other 3-5%, who are already predisposed to febrile seizures who may have a problem. That what they mean by 'brain damage', the vaccine is linked to a slightly higher rate of febrile seizures, but for children with a family history the vaccine is contraindicated anyway.
The car accident statistic came from here, where is shows that about 1 in 10,000 people are killed in car accidents annually.
Why are you rambling about autism? I never once said anything about that, nor did Paul. Maybe he is talking about something similar to this womens case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ztiAN9k584 Are you just looking for an argument to push your agenda? Because you sunk your teeth in there really quick and starting going on about autism.
Lol, you mean this woman? Edit: I should not here I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the stupid scam this lady was trying to pull, and the audacity she had to go on the news. It's amazing how quickly people will buy into scams. I mean, things like that are heartbreaking and scary, but it's amazing to me that people will give 'truthy' stories like that the benefit of the doubt, but not medical science.
Seriously though, the reason I'm saying autism is because it's the only 'mental disorder' that has ever been linked to vaccines in any kind of serious way, although the major study was later determined to be fraudulent.
Also, to be fair here, you should know that I actually work in public health. I'm not just a random guy spouting rhetoric here.
There have been cases of out breaks within communities with vaccinated children. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions that it's because of a greater number of unvaccinated children. Vaccines aren't 100% effect, but with herd immunity, they don't need to be.
This isn't really true either, as the concept of herd immunity applies to random samplings, but people don't actually randomly distribute themselves in real life. This article explains it for the lay person to understand.
My whole point is that Paul and the CDC seem to agree. Yet because he is a politician it's easier to go after him then it is the CDC. Even more so when he is lumped in with a nut job like Christie.
I don't care that Paul is a politician, I care that he's a doctor who made stupid and misrepresentative comments. Christie I could forgive because he doesn't know what the hell he's talking bout, but Paul should know better.
See, Ron Paul's comments are a perfect example of the common mistake people make. We've forgotten how dangerous these diseases are, so unless you have personal experience (like Paul's Polio comment), you don't even recognize them as a threat anymore.
But that's kind of like not wearing your seat belt because you've never been in a car accident, because it's uncomfortable and if you do get in a car accident it might bruise you. Before you think this is hyperbolic, I've had people actually say those words to me.
This just blows my mind. Rand Paul is a medical doctor, he should know better. When did pandering to the anti-vaccination crowd become a thing? Especially when that pandering includes the myth that vaccines can cause 'mental problems'.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Lol, you mean this woman? It's amazing how quickly people will buy into scams. I mean, things like that are heartbreaking and scary, but it's amazing to me that people will give 'truthy' stories like that the benefit of the doubt, but not medical science.
Oh **** me. I forgot that the link was this woman.
Lol, you mean this woman? It's amazing how quickly people will buy into scams. I mean, things like that are heartbreaking and scary, but it's amazing to me that people will give 'truthy' stories like that the benefit of the doubt, but not medical science.
Oh **** me. I forgot that the link was this woman.
Now I feel dumb.
You're forgiven, it's a really easy mistake to make. Who doesn't trust the nightly news? I just Google search when people post stuff like this to verify.
This is one of the issues. In order to make money, there are a lot of shady alternative medicine practitioners out there, and this, like Wakefield, was just another scam for financial gain.
Rand wasn't exactly "pandering to anti-vaxxers" so much as he was making a libertarian argument that parents should be the ones that make the choice for vaccination, not the government.
Rand wasn't exactly "pandering to anti-vaxxers" so much as he was making a libertarian argument that parents should be the ones that make the choice for vaccination, not the government.
Which would be great if this was solely a matter of personal choice, but it affects everyone.
Right now near my hometown, there's an infant daycare that's had 5 cases of measles crop up in the last week. These are children who are too young to have had their immunizations, but because of the recklessness of parents making the "choice" not to vaccinate their children, these lives are now at risk.
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Rand wasn't exactly "pandering to anti-vaxxers" so much as he was making a libertarian argument that parents should be the ones that make the choice for vaccination, not the government.
The personal choice issue is an entirely separate argument. I'm talking about the misinformation being spread by a doctor and public figure talking about vaccines causing mental disorders.
This just blows my mind. Rand Paul is a medical doctor, he should know better. When did pandering to the anti-vaccination crowd become a thing? Especially when that pandering includes the myth that vaccines can cause 'mental problems'.
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I get Rand Paul's Libertarian argument about choice, but the rest is just ridiculous.
The issue here, and what people aren't realizing, is that it's a major public safety issue to have unvaccinated kids in public spaces. It's not really something where personal preferences are really relevant. We're seeing outbreaks of preventable diseases we haven't seen in 50 years because of these people.
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http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm#mmr
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If you read the rest of the statement from the VIS, you get this gem:
Brain damage is so unlikely that we're not even sure it's a side effect of the vaccine. In most cases, these are problems associated with a possible fever, and are the result of children who are most likely already predisposed to convulsions that would cause brain damage.
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Regardless of how rare it may be, what Paul is saying is technically true. That's the point. Also, that little "gem" just goes to show that we don't fully understand all the risks of vaccines.
The article itself is just a hit piece meant to get people all worked up. And judging by the responses in this thread, it worked very well.
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Yeah... that's not true at all. Even if you were right, we're talking about 1 in 10,000 that it might even be a concern (for clarification, that's 1 in 1,000 who might get encephalitis, 1 in 10 of those who might get a serious complication). To put this number in perspective, you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects.
Here is the reality: There have been dozens of studies into the safety of Vaccines from every conceivable angle. And the consensus is there is no causal link between the vaccine itself and things like autism. The strongest case against Vaccines came from Andrew Wakefield's study, and he was proved to be a fraud looking to financially benefit from an alternative 'test' and had faked his data.
What Rand Paul said was: A pretty clear reference to the Autism debacle (mostly because what else could he be possibly talking about, there aren't really any other mental disorders that have been attempted to be linked to vaccines). He was referring to vaccines in general.
The issue here is that people are falling victim to the false causation fallacy. Their child develops a mental illness, and they want a reason why. Why did this happen to my child. So they start looking for reasons. And one of the tragic issues here is the MMR vaccine is given sometime between 12 and 15 months, which also happens to be the time most parents start noticing signs of autism in their children, or when a variety of problems become apparent - some of them seemingly quickly.
But that happens in unvaccinated children, too. And if it was actually cause by vaccines, which are given equally among genders, why is there such a huge gender gap in rates of autism? A correlation does not imply causation.
Not vaccinating your children is dangerous, and as these anti-vaxxers spread, we're seeing more and more outbreaks of previously preventable diseases.
I don't care about the article, it was just the first link I could find with a quote. He sounds just as stupid on Breitbart, they just don't comment on it.
If you think this is a partisan thing, I'd re-examine who actually has commented on this thread.
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So gravity is just a theory too? Technically?
Aka, when all else fails, make up a completely random statistic to support your argument.
Why are you rambling about autism? I never once said anything about that, nor did Paul. Maybe he is talking about something similar to this womens case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ztiAN9k584 Are you just looking for an argument to push your agenda? Because you sunk your teeth in there really quick and starting going on about autism.
Also, to be fair here. There have been cases of out breaks within communities with vaccinated children. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions that it's because of a greater number of unvaccinated children. Vaccines aren't 100% effect, but with herd immunity, they don't need to be.
My whole point is that Paul and the CDC seem to agree. Yet because he is a politician it's easier to go after him then it is the CDC. Even more so when he is lumped in with a nut job like Christie.
Also, to put into perspective Rand Paul's comment. Here is what his father said back in 2008.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f74xvtRijMc
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http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/rubio-jindal-latest-weigh-vaccine-debate-n299496
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/mitch-mcconnell-vaccinations_n_6607238.html
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What science shows that vaccines are 100% safe?
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I wasn't saying that they are. The anti-science part is the idea that people should be able to choose to not get their kids vaccinated, despite the risks being shown to outweigh the very minimal chances of anything going wrong. Vaccines have been shown to work and resulting problems from them are extremely rare. The children don't have a choice in the matter, so parents should be forced to be responsible.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That's not anti-science. That's people wanting limited government.
Plus not all vaccines are necessary. For example, before the chickenpox vaccine hit the market in 1995 about 100 people died each year from chickenpox. More people drown in bathtubs each year (about 330). Note that this is an actual statistic and not just a made up one like "you're about as likely to die in a car accident the year your kid gets vaccinated as you are for them to have serious side effects".
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Yes.
There is no evidence to correlate any genuine side effect with vaccinations. Rare incidents can occur with routine vaccinations, such as the woman you linked to. And we know that vaccinations can fail horribly and lead to severe side effects, as seen in the 1960s (.. I think it was) and with the flu vaccination they made that year.
But the attempt to just claim all vaccinations can be bad doesn't make sense. If there are severe side effects with the routine vaccinations given out, we would have seen it by now.
I don't believe anyone ever argued that vaccinations are completely safe. They did argue that we have no evidence to link autism with vaccinations, and there is no evidence to link vaccinations to genuine side-effects in general.
In any case, I just come back to my old favorite when it comes to the vaccination "debate". **** you. I don't want to die to smallpox.
Yeah, limited government **** yeah! We should also get rid of driver's licenses. They're just a consequence of government overreach as well. And why do we have food and health inspections?
Yeah, because only death is a possible consequence of any disease, right?
The risk of not having those shots are very much real,. The risk of having them are unfounded,. I know which risk I would be willing to take,.
For instance, the CDC does have a patent on an Ebola strain. Conspiracy theorists and idiots postulate from this technically true fact that the US invented Ebola. The reality is that they had to for researchers to be able to have access to the virus without paying royalties.
Okay, so I used Australia's Health Department website which was actually talking about measles risks in the vaccine section (I'm not an immunologist so I didn't know the figures offhand). So lets start again and I'll cite this time. The 'brain damage' issue you're talking about is probably coming from the risk of Febrile Seizure, which is 8 out of 10,000. The number varies whether it's the MMRV or the MMR vaccine, but to give you the benefit of the doubt, that's the higher statistic. Febrile Seizures aren't dangerous when it's a short seizures, and 95% of the time children will not experience serious side effects. It's the other 3-5%, who are already predisposed to febrile seizures who may have a problem. That what they mean by 'brain damage', the vaccine is linked to a slightly higher rate of febrile seizures, but for children with a family history the vaccine is contraindicated anyway.
The car accident statistic came from here, where is shows that about 1 in 10,000 people are killed in car accidents annually.
Lol, you mean this woman? Edit: I should not here I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the stupid scam this lady was trying to pull, and the audacity she had to go on the news. It's amazing how quickly people will buy into scams. I mean, things like that are heartbreaking and scary, but it's amazing to me that people will give 'truthy' stories like that the benefit of the doubt, but not medical science.
Seriously though, the reason I'm saying autism is because it's the only 'mental disorder' that has ever been linked to vaccines in any kind of serious way, although the major study was later determined to be fraudulent.
Also, to be fair here, you should know that I actually work in public health. I'm not just a random guy spouting rhetoric here.
This isn't really true either, as the concept of herd immunity applies to random samplings, but people don't actually randomly distribute themselves in real life. This article explains it for the lay person to understand.
I don't care that Paul is a politician, I care that he's a doctor who made stupid and misrepresentative comments. Christie I could forgive because he doesn't know what the hell he's talking bout, but Paul should know better.
See, Ron Paul's comments are a perfect example of the common mistake people make. We've forgotten how dangerous these diseases are, so unless you have personal experience (like Paul's Polio comment), you don't even recognize them as a threat anymore.
But that's kind of like not wearing your seat belt because you've never been in a car accident, because it's uncomfortable and if you do get in a car accident it might bruise you. Before you think this is hyperbolic, I've had people actually say those words to me.
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Given Mr Paul's credentials...
Could be worse. And by could be, I mean is.
On phasing:
Oh **** me. I forgot that the link was this woman.
Now I feel dumb.
This is one of the issues. In order to make money, there are a lot of shady alternative medicine practitioners out there, and this, like Wakefield, was just another scam for financial gain.
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Which would be great if this was solely a matter of personal choice, but it affects everyone.
Right now near my hometown, there's an infant daycare that's had 5 cases of measles crop up in the last week. These are children who are too young to have had their immunizations, but because of the recklessness of parents making the "choice" not to vaccinate their children, these lives are now at risk.
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The personal choice issue is an entirely separate argument. I'm talking about the misinformation being spread by a doctor and public figure talking about vaccines causing mental disorders.
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