psychadelic mushrooms

  • #1
    hey guys, the other wiki's article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychadelic_mushrooms) on ye olde shrooms appears to say almost nothing but good will towards the things. they're fairly safe (unless you count feeling like crap from a bad trip something awful) and non-addictive, which means the very long term symptoms aren't likely to come up unless you've got a hankerin' for psychological issues. what's interesting is that shrooms are less toxic than alcohol (in the extreme) but the high seems to be considerably better than alcohol (plus the long term symptoms are a lot easier to avoid).

    does anyone have any evidence of shrooms having extreme negative side-effects that don't require substance abuse or a bad start to a trip? i saw the marijuana safety debunking topic and felt this would be a good follow-up since i've had it on my mind for a while now.

    bonus food for thought: why aren't shrooms legal if they're safer than booze?
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  • #2
    I personally don't know anyone who has been prosecuted for posession of shrooms.

    Safer than Alcohol is questionable. Alcohol can be moderated, shrooms not so much.
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  • #3
    Quote from the_cardfather
    I personally don't know anyone who has been prosecuted for posession of shrooms.

    Safer than Alcohol is questionable. Alcohol can be moderated, shrooms not so much.


    i mean on a toxicity level, it would be very hard to OD on shrooms (you'd probably feel like crap though) but it does not take much (relatively) to kill yourself with alcohol. i suppose it would be harder to take a minor dose of shrooms when it is easy to have a single glass of wine, but when consumed for the intoxicating effect i think shrooms have the upper hand health-wise.
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  • #4
    Here's the thing: mushrooms, unlike marijuana, are food. And unlike alcohol, they contain no natural antibacterial agents. So on top of the hallucinagenic effect, you can very easily get any number of interesting bacterial/viral infections (a danger with consuming any fungi), as well the risk of literally eating crap.
  • #5
    The mushroom wiki is clearly dominated by people with a pro-mushroom agenda.

    Otherwise, why would they use as their primary graph for the article, "Harm caused by drugs", which is clearly based on total harm to society, regardless of number of users, since Alcohol is number 1 on the table, finishing ahead of heroin and crack. Cannabis is listed as worse than GHB and Ketamine. The only reason to include it is to make Ketamine look good.

    Similarly on the LSD wiki, we see a nice graph making addiction and lethality for LSD look greaaaat.

    -

    I have little opinion on the whole thing other than they both have some major hallucinogenic properties.

    If this were legalized, and a person high on this killed somebody, would they get any kind of break (let's say 2nd degree or manslaughter instead of first degree premeditated... what if they ran over a person? ) ? I'd say NO breaks.

    It's also a pretty nasty substance to poison people with I'm thinking, so I don't love the thought of a lot of it floating around out there. How heat stable and alcohol stable is it? I haven't looked into that. (We have tighter and tighter restrictions being imposed all the time on toxins like Botox, probably be because of terrorism fears).
    Last edited by dcartist: 9/27/2011 10:26:58 AM
  • #6
    Quote from dcartist
    The mushroom wiki is clearly dominated by people with a pro-mushroom agenda.

    Otherwise, why would they use as their primary graph for the article, "Harm caused by drugs", which is clearly based on total harm to society, regardless of number of users, since Alcohol is number 1 on the table, finishing ahead of heroin and crack. Cannabis is listed as worse than GHB and Ketamine. The only reason to include it is to make Ketamine look good.

    Similarly on the LSD wiki, we see a nice graph making addiction and lethality for LSD look greaaaat.

    -

    I have little opinion on the whole thing other than they both have some major hallucinogenic properties.

    If this were legalized, and a person high on this killed somebody, would they get any kind of break (let's say 2nd degree or manslaughter instead of first degree premeditated... what if they ran over a person? ) ? I'd say NO breaks.


    well actually that is an official method of testing the toxicity of a substance; at least the LSD article had a "negative effects" page whereas the negative effects of shrooms was kind of bundled. regardless, i've seen and heard from others (obviously anecdotal) that shrooms are relatively safe. like any food, you must clean them before consuming but in the end it's no different than eating any other fungi (as another user pointed out).

    not that i'm support shrooms, i've never tried them, although i wouldn't be averse to doing so.
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  • #7
    If something like this were legalized, I'd say they should have centers where you rent a room and agree not to leave for a certain number of hours, etc. And public intoxication with shrooms or LSD would be harshly, harshly punished. Having actively hallucinating people walking around is not cool.

    I'd rather not legalize them though.
  • #8
    Firstly, have you ever fallen asleep on them? Worst experience ever. You gain random fears of things and you cannot remember why you fear them (I literally almost **** my pants when I see a blue hippo on tv)

    And people who take them over many years end up with a fair bit of brain damage. I'd say that taking LSD trips is safer because you can moderate how much you take but you do crazier **** on hallucinogenics then when you get drunk.


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  • #9
    Quote from Misclick
    Here's the thing: mushrooms, unlike marijuana, are food. And unlike alcohol, they contain no natural antibacterial agents. So on top of the hallucinagenic effect, you can very easily get any number of interesting bacterial/viral infections (a danger with consuming any fungi), as well the risk of literally eating crap.



    Because your intestinal tract has no mechanisms to defend against microbial invasions, right?

    And "literally eating crap" is a danger with anything, but is not really the issue.


    And I do seem to recall that some French guy on shrooms jumped out of a window because of his hallucinations. But yeah, that's more a case of not having someone around who stays sober while others go on a trip. Having some kind of safety like that is kind of a requirement with any strong hallucinogenic.
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  • #10
    I know that some people at least feel that use the drugs heavily can experience heightened brain function (look at some of the testimonials of famous scientists of the past century), but I have also heard that you start to lose a sense of reality even when sober over time. I also know that many people get aggressive and have a boost of energy on shrooms - it was even used by vikings to enhance their abilities in battle.
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  • #11
    Quote from jokulmorder
    bonus food for thought: why aren't shrooms legal if they're safer than booze?


    Because the "powers that be" are afraid of what would happen if they were legal. They make people look at things different and often cause people to look at and evaluate our society from a different angle causing them to realize how totally ****ed up everything is. The people at the top fear change because they could lose their position at the top. That's my theory anyway.:D

    Quote from the_cardfather
    Safer than Alcohol is questionable. Alcohol can be moderated, shrooms not so much.


    It actually takes a pretty good amount of shrooms to make you high. Eating a couple small bites would be like driking one or two drinks, you'll feel it, but you won't be a total mess. They can be moderated very easily.

    Quote from dcartist
    If something like this were legalized, I'd say they should have centers where you rent a room and agree not to leave for a certain number of hours, etc. And public intoxication with shrooms or LSD would be harshly, harshly punished. Having actively hallucinating people walking around is not cool.


    I agree with the premise here. There should definitely be somewhere people can go to experiment with things like this, where they are in the hands of caring people that know what they are doing. No way in hell should these places be indoors though. Many cultures in central and south America have the right idea towards hallucinogens, where it's a spiritual journey with a shaman as a guide.

    Also, people actively hallucinating and walking around is actually pretty harmless, they're just going want to really study and take in everything they look at and maybe laugh a lot. They aren't going to be concerned with you or the people with you. It's when they want to drive that there is a problem, similar to what happens when drunk people want to drive. And chances are that if you live in a big enough city you've been around people who are walking around hallucinating and you did't even know it.

    Quote from pinkfloyd
    Firstly, have you ever fallen asleep on them? Worst experience ever. You gain random fears of things and you cannot remember why you fear them (I literally almost **** my pants when I see a blue hippo on tv)


    This is anecdotal, it's going to be different for different people. Other things can affect it too such as what you've eaten before the shrooms and what type of shrooms you eat. Any time I've ever fallen asleep on them I wake up feeling rested, refreshed and full of energy.
    Last edited by sirpsychosexy: 9/27/2011 3:59:14 PM
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  • #12
    Since everyone is gonna debate the legitimacy of any article you find on the net, I'll just go with what I've seen in real life.

    Aside from bad trips, which more often than not are generally just an ugly side effect of the individual being in the wrong state of mind as opposed to the particular substance itself. I've NEVER heard of any major or long term side effects from recreational use. The worse I've seen is a lil nausea, hell I've never even seen anyone actually throw up from them, just a lil nausea.

    I'd talk about personal experience, but for some reason 1 specific person won't let us have that. To keep it short and vague, first few times were great for everyone involved. All fun, no hard time afterwords, an entirely rewarding experience. Of course that was when I was much younger.

    Alas now, I'm old and all too aware of all my own shortcomings and the dismal state of a planet on the verge of collapse. So more recently I got really caught up in negative thoughts and just fell into this awful, schizophrenic mental hell for a few hours. Thankfully my beloved was with me at the time. I didn't feel completely out of control like I was gonna jump in front of a train or anything, but I did feel really intense anxiety and depression that definitely would have been worse if I didn't have someone to talk to.

    So yeah, definitely go into the experience with positivity and love. If you have any predilection towards anxiety or depression, you might not wanna do it. DEFINITELY make sure you have a trip sitter. Play music you love that would give you soothing vibes and try and get some fresh air if you can. I'm not saying run through the streets, but maybe try and hang out in your backyard or something of that ilk. I definitely think being out in nature can help the experience.

    As for the anti-legalization kids here, they're always gonna give the same story more or less of "We'd have these wild madmen hallucinating in the streets! They'd be killing people and running around naked just raping everything they see!!!" Hell I've heard one guy on here say that we can't legalize weed because there'd be so many people smoking pot after that that the entire country would start to get a second hand high (no kidding, and he was serious too). To them I ask, what about the countries where marijuana and mushrooms are legal? Is that happening? Hell, despite them being illegal people are still using them anyway here in the US. Certainly that would mean that it would at least happen occasionally.......still no? Hmmm, maybe their fears are a lil exaggerated.

    Providing it more or less had the same restrictions as alcohol, no driving, no public intoxication and all that stuff. I say legalize everything. There's lots of unhealthy and very legal things people ingest all the time. Why is it that more wrong if it's fun?
  • #13
    Quote from JollyTheOctopuss


    As for the anti-legalization kids here, they're always gonna give the same story more or less of "We'd have these wild madmen hallucinating in the streets! They'd be killing people and running around naked just raping everything they see!!!" Hell I've heard one guy on here say that we can't legalize weed because there'd be so many people smoking pot after that that the entire country would start to get a second hand high (no kidding, and he was serious too).


    Reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson in Fear and Loathing, when they are at the police convention and the man giving the speech says something along the lines of "Look out for the semen encrusted pants of Junkies who have to jerk off when they can't find a rape victim."

    R.I.P. that man was a saint.

    A lot of the anti-legalization arguments I have heard are either slippery slope (next they'll be legalizing crack, etc.) or fatalistic like your example. I'm interested in seeing some real science on how some hallucinogens are worse than cigarettes and alcohol.
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  • #14
    http://www.erowid.org/

    never go to wiki for drug info. Go here and thank me later =)
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  • #15
    Quote from TheRedViper

    A lot of the anti-legalization arguments I have heard are either slippery slope (next they'll be legalizing crack, etc.) or fatalistic like your example. I'm interested in seeing some real science on how some hallucinogens are worse than cigarettes and alcohol.


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    In other words, nicotine consumption cannot be blamed for Substance Induced Mood Disorder and nicotine consumption and alcohol withdrawal cannot be blamed for Substance Induced Psychotic Disorder.

    Basically the consumption of any other drug (with the exceptions of caffeine, marijuana in SIMD, and "sedatives in pill form" for SIPD) can cause a psych problem.

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  • #16
    Hahah! I'm anti-mushroom legalization, but hey, I'm trying to be fair:

    Here's the mushroom lover's DREAM STUDY! Reported today in mainstream USATODAY no less!

    http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-09-29/Magic-mushroom-drug-may-improve-personality-long-term-/50602264/1

    In new research that will almost certainly create controversy, scientists working with the hallucinogen psilocybin -- the active ingredient found in "magic mushrooms" -- have found that a single dose of the drug prompted an enduring but positive personality change in almost 60 percent of patients.

    Specifically, tests involving a small group of patients in a strictly controlled and monitored clinical setting revealed that, more often than not, one round of psilocybin exposure successfully boosted an individual's sense of "openness." What's more, the apparent shift in what is deemed to be a key aspect of personality did not dissipate after exposure, lasting at least a year and sometimes longer.
    "Now this finding is really quite fascinating," said study author Roland R. Griffiths, a professor in the departments of psychiatry and neuroscience at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in Baltimore. "And that is because personality is considered a stable characteristic of the psychology of people. It's been thought to be relatively immutable, and stable across the lifespan.
    "But, remarkably, this study shows that psilocybin actually changes one domain of personality that is strongly related to traits such as imagination, feeling, abstract ideas and aesthetics, and is considered a core construct underlying creativity in general," he added. "And the changes we see appear to be long-term."
    Griffiths said it's possible psilocybin could have therapeutic uses. For example, he is currently studying whether the hallucinogen might be useful in helping cancer patients cope with the depression and anxiety that often accompany the disease, and whether it might help smokers quit the habit.
  • #17
    Remember when it comes to legalization, it isn't always about just a simple majority. If 51% of the population take a substance and have a great time and 49% of people will have a harmful event, it will never get legalized.
    You need an overwhelmingly huge majority for it to be legal.

    Magic mushrooms have potential issues like inducing large panic attacks, renal failure, and acute encephalopathy.

    I always suggest using Pubmed for studies over wikis, personal websites, or even most mainstream media when concerning scientific or medical issues.
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  • #18
    Quote from Befuddlement
    Remember when it comes to legalization, it isn't always about just a simple majority. If 51% of the population take a substance and have a great time and 49% of people will have a harmful event, it will never get legalized.
    You need an overwhelmingly huge majority for it to be legal.

    I'm not really sure why but you fail to make a clear distinction between "simple majority", a term with strong connotations towards voting and opinion-polling, and the effects on people expressed in percentages. Perhaps you can make clearer what you mean.

    On a somewhat related note, I don't think the harmfulness of a substance to an individual should be a very strong indicator of whether or not it should be legal, without regard for the fact that mushrooms are not really too dangerous at all. It's a legal question, which to me makes it a moral question, which in turn makes it a question of autonomy. I see no legitimate moral grounds to forbid people from engaging in activities that might be harmful to them but not their environment. Thus, all drugs should be legalized with provisions that ensure their use does not harm others and the users are informed.

    Magic mushrooms have potential issues like inducing large panic attacks, renal failure, and acute encephalopathy.

    I always suggest using Pubmed for studies over wikis, personal websites, or even most mainstream media when concerning scientific or medical issues.

    Were you banking on the idea that nobody would double check this on Pubmed or on the idea that nobody would call your conclusion into question because it is based on a single case study?
  • #19
    I admit I did a casual search of pubmed on the topic. The potential side effects were cited in a handful of cases; not single case study. Many of them were did also state that they were in the minority of cases. If the benefit is pure enjoyment and the risk is medical harm, I can't help but wonder about its use. Then again we do allow people to sky dive albeit in controlled situations with persons informed about the risks.

    I think culturally the United States can not handle legalization of these substances. It works fine in other countries, but considering the overall lack of self control in the United States, I rather avoid the subject.

    I am personally against the casual use of hallucinogens, but that does not exclude they may have therapeutic uses if tempered properly. For example, Cluster headaches can be highly debilitating and LSD has been shown to have some use in relief of these cluster headaches. Giving them LSD is rather questionable; however, the development of 2-bromo-LSD has shown to bring relief to these patients and has little to no hallucinogenic effects. I am on board for more research into 2-bromo-LSD.
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  • #20
    Quote from Befuddlement
    I admit I did a casual search of pubmed on the topic. The potential side effects were cited in a handful of cases; not single case study. Many of them were did also state that they were in the minority of cases. If the benefit is pure enjoyment and the risk is medical harm, I can't help but wonder about its use. Then again we do allow people to sky dive albeit in controlled situations with persons informed about the risks.

    I will not argue against the fact that these substances can cause anxiety, because that is undeniably true in some cases. However, this is not physiological harm caused by the mushrooms.

    Further, encephalopathy is only discussed in the one case report. Renal failure is discussed in the very same case report, 2 studies about mushrooms in general - neither of them in connection with psilocybe mushrooms -, and 2 case reports of people mistaking poisonous mushrooms for magic mushrooms.

    Please do not make factual claims based on nothing. Not everyone has the patience to double-check, and you might be the inception of a cascade of misinformation. You are doing everyone who reads your post a disservice if your claims go unverified and make yourself look silly otherwise.

    I think culturally the United States can not handle legalization of these substances. It works fine in other countries, but considering the overall lack of self control in the United States, I rather avoid the subject.


    The problem with this is that it was basically the US that coerced the rest of the world into outlawing these substances in the first place. I understand that US culture makes this issue difficult but if the US do not change their policy, this will be a significant obstacle to other countries doing it instead. Also, there are very little countries (most of them "joke countries", like tiny islands in the pacific) where even something like psilocybes is legal.

    I am personally against the casual use of hallucinogens, but that does not exclude they may have therapeutic uses if tempered properly. For example, Cluster headaches can be highly debilitating and LSD has been shown to have some use in relief of these cluster headaches. Giving them LSD is rather questionable; however, the development of 2-bromo-LSD has shown to bring relief to these patients and has little to no hallucinogenic effects. I am on board for more research into 2-bromo-LSD.

    Might I inform you that there are also non-recreational, non-therapeutic reasons to use these sorts of substances? The search for insight into oneself and spiritual experiences to name the two big ones.

    I'm curious as to why you are opposed to even the casual use, and what this opposition exactly entails. Does that mean you support its prohibition?
  • #21
    Quote from dcartist
    Hahah! I'm anti-mushroom legalization, but hey, I'm trying to be fair:

    Here's the mushroom lover's DREAM STUDY! Reported today in mainstream USATODAY no less!

    http://yourlife.usatoday.com/health/story/2011-09-29/Magic-mushroom-drug-may-improve-personality-long-term-/50602264/1


    I found a tid-bit on psilocybin and LSD helping cure/prevent Cluster Headaches (aka 'Suicide Headaches').

    Not that I'd suggest anyone regularly take mushrooms and LSD for anything.

    http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_medical1.shtml

    Concerning your article: That whole 'long term improved personality' thing seems to be pretty subjective to have any sort of conclusive proof...
  • #22
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3EBmiURgw

    I urge everyone to watch this video. It's only four and a half minutes long and the man talking (Graham Hancock) makes some of the best arguments I've ever heard for the legalization of these types of substances. I really do think everyone here should watch this and really listen to what this man is saying, especially those of you who are so dead set against any sort of reform in the laws dealing with these substances. Please, don't go into it with your mind made up, keep an open mind and let these words really sink in.

    Remember kids, there is a huge difference between naturally occurring "drugs" that expand the mind and help enlighten the spirit and the poison that is made from chemicals and injected into the veins. Many people here really need to learn how to make the distinction.

    To the mods: I'm posting this exact same thing in two different threads because it is more than relevant to both. I hope that's ok.
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  • #23
    I am a long-term advocate for the use of psychedelics to expand the mind and spiritual awareness:
    http://www.disinfo.com/2011/09/study-a-single-magic-mushroom-trip-causes-long-term-positive-changes-to-personality/
  • #24
    Mushrooms are nice. I've taken them occasionally and just had 1 bad trip; of course, that day I wasn't feeling very pshyched about it and it didn't work.

    As for legalization, well, they're legal on the Netherlands. And the sky hasn't fallen there yet. I do agree that nobody should be allowed to pilot an engine while tripping, that's probably too dangerous (both for the tripper and the general populace).

    On "natural" vs "chemical" drugs: Well, some mushrooms species (ie: Amanita Phalloides) can kill people; those ingesting them will have a very "natural" death. Medical drugs save/improve quality of life. So: "natural" =/= good nor "chemical" = bad.

    As a general rule, and concerning almost all drugs, caution, information and quality should be the way to go. Too bad governments won't follow netherland's example. A lot of people suffer and die around the globe due to drug trafficking; one of the most lucrative and dangerous trade. Just an example: USA should take a look on what's happening on the other side of its Mexican border near El Paso (Hell Paso?) --> all those deaths are caused directly or indirectly by the drug traffic. Legalizing drugs is the only sensible and viable option.
    Last edited by Lorgalis: 10/3/2011 2:03:30 PM

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  • #25
    Any negative side effects aside, governments are against anything that alter your mind. That's why they're illegal, unlike alcohol or coffee. Because once you're on the stuff you don't accept the crap the system would offer you and would be a lot more creative etc.
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