I just persist AMF instead, and if they happen to walk into it it's their problem.
You're really beginning to annoy the ☺☺☺☺ out of me. I understand you got the cheese that you were wanting to play got shot down, but is that really any reason to throw a fit and threaten the party with AMFs and MDJs galore?
Anyway, I'm working in the character sheet right now. I hope to have it completed either today or tomorrow.
not likely to happen, sceluk, to allow that for class features means it would be allowing it for feat synergies as well and that makes everything insanely silly.
you can also always go Ranger 12/Scout 8 take Swift Hunter so you have a 20/20 progression in Favored Enemies and Skirmish that is allowed actually.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Uh, is there still space left for this? Can't believe I missed the thread all these days, just checking my control panel for subscribed threads.
If so, what roles are covered?
basically we need melee or trap monkey's although given Caex's track record he isn't likely to make a game where rogues are needed for trapmonkery, so yeah heavy melee and wtf-ery is all we are missing for this group we have controllers and healers, im a leader more than anything and Halinn is a Striker more than anything from what i can tell so all we are missing is a Melee Tank and we are set to go (yay 4e making it so damn easy to explain composition :p)
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
(yay 4e making it so damn easy to explain composition :p)
Also inaccurate.
D&D 3.5 Epic is like nuclear warfare. You roll initiative. You ask if opponent has Celerity (Lolnuclearsubmarineonyourcoast.). You ask if you have Celerity. You conclude the battle.
Controllers do not really exist beyond a certain point, since freedom of movement and gazillion immunities make them useless. Saving throws also scale better with level than save DC's. Healers do not exist since wizards throw enough damage to kill anything within one nova. Leaders do not exist since they can't stop people from the nova. Tanks do not exist since they too will die to the nova.
There are Abjurers and Rest. Abjurers are the rocket shield. Others are the rockets. Then you test if the rocket shield holds the NPC rockets. Fighters are low-tech rockets, rogues are the middle ground and wizards are the hich-tech-homing-rocketproof-rockets.
Rocket Tag ftw.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
D&D 3.5 Epic is like nuclear warfare. You roll initiative. You ask if opponent has Celerity (Lolnuclearsubmarineonyourcoast.). You ask if you have Celerity. You conclude the battle.
Controllers do not really exist beyond a certain point, since freedom of movement and gazillion immunities make them useless. Saving throws also scale better with level than save DC's. Healers do not exist since wizards throw enough damage to kill anything within one nova. Leaders do not exist since they can't stop people from the nova. Tanks do not exist since they too will die to the nova.
There are Abjurers and Rest. Abjurers are the rocket shield. Others are the rockets. Then you test if the rocket shield holds the NPC rockets. Fighters are low-tech rockets, rogues are the middle ground and wizards are the hich-tech-homing-rocketproof-rockets.
Rocket Tag ftw.
That of course assumes everyone plays like you do and no one wants to have fun, i have yet to see a game HERE where someone goes nova and ends everything on one go, on the contrary i have seen plenty of cases HERE where all the things you say are non-existent at epic actually happen at epic so yeah not everything is a munchkin battle for spell-orgasm no matter how much you try to convince yourself it is.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
That of course assumes everyone plays like you do and no one wants to have fun, i have yet to see a game HERE where someone goes nova and ends everything on one go, on the contrary i have seen plenty of cases HERE where all the things you say are non-existent at epic actually happen at epic so yeah not everything is a munchkin battle for spell-orgasm no matter how much you try to convince yourself it is.
A lot of combats in Godslayer War ended in one round to someone dealing thousands of damage. The ones that did not were more or less fights where people did not use the full power of their characters or climatic finishing battles. Infact, quite a few battles were finished (Or basically finished, to the point that opposition no more posed any relevant threat to the party.) before the people last in initiative could act.
Healing has been out-of-combat-only in each epic game I've played. Some AoE-healing-effects were used to harm enemy undead, though.
Tanking only ever works if you have something to force opponents to focus on you. (There are like.. Three or so ways to do this in 3.5, and none of them is reliable.) And since Caex is the DM, I do not expect anyone to be able to pull off a build that would survive even half of what the character would need to to constitute a tank.
Most characters are just different ways of throwing rockets. Apachai? Charge and hit things until they die. Alacar? Cast spells and hit things until they die. Krashbot's Swiftblade? Cast haste and hit things until they die. Caex's Half-Dragon? Breath at things and they die. You do not need to be a caster to play rocket tag. Martial artists can do it just fine. So can incarnates. It's just easier to do on casters.
The fact is that most, if not all, characters will still participate in rocket tag. It's kill or be killed, and with a DM willing to kill you, it's preferably kill them before they can act or be killed.
I do admit that this is a fairly generalized, though. Most characters are actually something between missile shield and a missile, having at least a few actions to save themselves from specific missiles of opponents. The issue, however, is that a character that is very much of a missile shield doesn't justify his existence by surviving, since he is not a missile when needed. He needs to protect his allies, and the only way to do this well enough is to play an Abjurer. A fighter, no matter what you do, cannot stop enemies from using breath weapon for 800 damage on your caster. (Other than killing the dragon before it can do this.).
Even then, Abjurers are a pain in the ass for the DM to deal with. Basically the DM has to ask for permission after each and every attack, and the abjurer can completely interrupt the turn sequence at any time, forcing everyone to change their actions. Immediate Action Wall of Force, anyone? They slow the game down a fair bit.
This is a result of PC offensive capabilities increasing faster than defensive capabilities. A level 1 barbarian with 16 consitution is a lot tougher than level 1 wizard with 12 con. 15(+2onrage) vs 5 health, respectively. At level 20 the difference isn't so huge. That wizard has +6 item and +5 tome, so does the barbarian. The increases in survivability are very much equal. The increases on offense, though? That barbarian might deal 2d6+5 damage at level 1. If he's a frenzied berserker, he's dealing hundreds points of damage at level 20, and that wizard is dealing even more. This doesn't get any better considering that a lot of threats at epic do not even care about your health, but your saves, immunities and skill checks. That Forcecage does not care if you have 8000 or 10 health. It cares if you have escape artist in hundreds. Anyone on the offense can just choose your weakness to target. You cannot really cover every single thing that can be thrown at you. You can, however, use all that money to increase your damage output and hope to kill the opposition before they can use their pretty powers.
In epic, Offense is the best defense. Often it is also the only defense your character has. Even at times that is not the case, it might be the only relevant one.
I do not claim that this is a bad thing, though. Hitting each other hard and having the risk to die is a good thing. I am just saying that it is what you do, and saying that "my character is a tank" doesn't make sense if what you are doing is exactly the same thing as the character next to you.
TL;DR: Killing stuff is easier than surviving getting killed. It is also more appealing to most people and most probably more beneficial to your allies.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
See that is the most sensible (sans the TL;DR tag at the end) post i have seen you make in a while, now use that same level of sensibility and make something that is not cheese on wheels and/or designed to preemptively turn anything into a eunuchs convention so we can all have fun killing stuff (specially since doing that means Caex has to make sure everything can either resist your eunuch-fication or turn everyone else into a eunuch before you can).
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Caex, can I have a new spell? Amadi's Eunuchification IX. Please.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
While i would prefer the 20//19 i think Caex will go with 19//19 since distributing the LA to just one side seems cheesey.
So Caex whats the status on the campaign? a rooster as well as a deadline would be great since i have been putting off finishing the Bio because i see no action going on here.
Sceluk a few nitpicks:
1) You have a max progression of Scout and Ranger features (Favored enemies and Skirmish), yet i see no way you could do this, your feats show Swift Ambusher which lets you stack Rogue and Scout Levels for Skirmish Damage (so you would have a level 18 Scout's Skirmish), so i dont see how you got the maxed Favored Enemy, even if you do take Swift Hunter your Favored enemy would still only be equivalent to a 5th level Ranger (although your skirmish would be equivalent to a 20th level Scout since both Swift Hunter and Ambusher stack here).
2) I dont see your Sneak Attack value anywhere (remember Swift Ambusher does not stack Scout and Rogue levels for SA value only for the availability of getting ambush feats so your Sneak Attack is still equivalent to a level 15 Rogue.)
3) A list of Spells as well as Invocations is needed and for the love of all thats holy do not forget to get Vitriolic Blast it is perhaps the single most important Essence you will need at this level since Epic is riddled with Spell Resistance and you want something to bypass it (additionally you may want to check the Epic Insight article at wizards for Epic Feats, you have no way of qualifying yet but Lord of All Essences is something you will need at epic since it will let you add a spell as well as a Vitriolic Blast to your EB)
While i would prefer the 20//19 i think Caex will go with 19//19 since distributing the LA to just one side seems cheesey.
^^^This.
So Caex whats the status on the campaign? a rooster as well as a deadline would be great since i have been putting off finishing the Bio because i see no action going on here.
Amadi and I have been discussing his character (which is extremely interesting, by the way). I'd like to get it started early next week. I've been doing house rennovations like crazy (got the island set up in the kitchen finally, just started painting the front room), which is why I've been absent from the site for a while, and I will continue to be moderately absent up until... maybe this weekend? Or a little longer. Not quite sure when I'm gonna have to redo the floors, so any time between now and next week some time is a possibility.
Sceluk a few nitpicks:
1) You have a max progression of Scout and Ranger features (Favored enemies and Skirmish), yet i see no way you could do this, your feats show Swift Ambusher which lets you stack Rogue and Scout Levels for Skirmish Damage (so you would have a level 18 Scout's Skirmish), so i dont see how you got the maxed Favored Enemy, even if you do take Swift Hunter your Favored enemy would still only be equivalent to a 5th level Ranger (although your skirmish would be equivalent to a 20th level Scout since both Swift Hunter and Ambusher stack here).
Whaa! I forgot to ban all those feats from Complete Adventurer that let you stack your levels from two different classes.
Consider those banned, as they are cheesy as hell in gestalt.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Whaa! I forgot to ban all those feats from Complete Adventurer that let you stack your levels from two different classes.
Consider those banned, as they are cheesy as hell in gestalt.
In Sceluk's defense, he's not using them to stack classes on different sides of progression to end up with ridiculous benefits, and his character is not extremely strong even with those feats.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
In Sceluk's defense, he's not using them to stack classes on different sides of progression to end up with ridiculous benefits, and his character is not extremely strong even with those feats.
I actually Agree with Amadi here, the feats (so long as the classes are on the same side of the progression) are actually quite balanced and in truth no more broken than the fact i can Still/Silent/Eschew Weird while at the same time doing a bard song with no change in the slot requirement... or the fact i can cast save or die spells while also doing a song and no one knowing about it because im also doing a mime act of being a statue
@Sceluk: its cool, just me nitpicking and reminding you of the missing work, its happened to me that i stop at a late hour and then later forget about the spell list because i thought i had it done already.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Sorry, wasn't calling your use of the feats cheesy as hell. But in general, the kinds of feats that add two class levels together for some benefit are insane in gestalt.
How about this rule: You can only take those feats if the related classes are on the same side of your progression.
In related news: Characters sheets? Anyone who hasn't posted theirs please make an effort to do so this week.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
You're really beginning to annoy the ☺☺☺☺ out of me. I understand you got the cheese that you were wanting to play got shot down, but is that really any reason to throw a fit and threaten the party with AMFs and MDJs galore?
Anyway, I'm working in the character sheet right now. I hope to have it completed either today or tomorrow.
you can also always go Ranger 12/Scout 8 take Swift Hunter so you have a 20/20 progression in Favored Enemies and Skirmish that is allowed actually.
If so, what roles are covered?
Also inaccurate.
D&D 3.5 Epic is like nuclear warfare. You roll initiative. You ask if opponent has Celerity (Lolnuclearsubmarineonyourcoast.). You ask if you have Celerity. You conclude the battle.
Controllers do not really exist beyond a certain point, since freedom of movement and gazillion immunities make them useless. Saving throws also scale better with level than save DC's. Healers do not exist since wizards throw enough damage to kill anything within one nova. Leaders do not exist since they can't stop people from the nova. Tanks do not exist since they too will die to the nova.
There are Abjurers and Rest. Abjurers are the rocket shield. Others are the rockets. Then you test if the rocket shield holds the NPC rockets. Fighters are low-tech rockets, rogues are the middle ground and wizards are the hich-tech-homing-rocketproof-rockets.
Rocket Tag ftw.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
That of course assumes everyone plays like you do and no one wants to have fun, i have yet to see a game HERE where someone goes nova and ends everything on one go, on the contrary i have seen plenty of cases HERE where all the things you say are non-existent at epic actually happen at epic so yeah not everything is a munchkin battle for spell-orgasm no matter how much you try to convince yourself it is.
A lot of combats in Godslayer War ended in one round to someone dealing thousands of damage. The ones that did not were more or less fights where people did not use the full power of their characters or climatic finishing battles. Infact, quite a few battles were finished (Or basically finished, to the point that opposition no more posed any relevant threat to the party.) before the people last in initiative could act.
Healing has been out-of-combat-only in each epic game I've played. Some AoE-healing-effects were used to harm enemy undead, though.
Tanking only ever works if you have something to force opponents to focus on you. (There are like.. Three or so ways to do this in 3.5, and none of them is reliable.) And since Caex is the DM, I do not expect anyone to be able to pull off a build that would survive even half of what the character would need to to constitute a tank.
Most characters are just different ways of throwing rockets. Apachai? Charge and hit things until they die. Alacar? Cast spells and hit things until they die. Krashbot's Swiftblade? Cast haste and hit things until they die. Caex's Half-Dragon? Breath at things and they die. You do not need to be a caster to play rocket tag. Martial artists can do it just fine. So can incarnates. It's just easier to do on casters.
The fact is that most, if not all, characters will still participate in rocket tag. It's kill or be killed, and with a DM willing to kill you, it's preferably kill them before they can act or be killed.
I do admit that this is a fairly generalized, though. Most characters are actually something between missile shield and a missile, having at least a few actions to save themselves from specific missiles of opponents. The issue, however, is that a character that is very much of a missile shield doesn't justify his existence by surviving, since he is not a missile when needed. He needs to protect his allies, and the only way to do this well enough is to play an Abjurer. A fighter, no matter what you do, cannot stop enemies from using breath weapon for 800 damage on your caster. (Other than killing the dragon before it can do this.).
Even then, Abjurers are a pain in the ass for the DM to deal with. Basically the DM has to ask for permission after each and every attack, and the abjurer can completely interrupt the turn sequence at any time, forcing everyone to change their actions. Immediate Action Wall of Force, anyone? They slow the game down a fair bit.
This is a result of PC offensive capabilities increasing faster than defensive capabilities. A level 1 barbarian with 16 consitution is a lot tougher than level 1 wizard with 12 con. 15(+2onrage) vs 5 health, respectively. At level 20 the difference isn't so huge. That wizard has +6 item and +5 tome, so does the barbarian. The increases in survivability are very much equal. The increases on offense, though? That barbarian might deal 2d6+5 damage at level 1. If he's a frenzied berserker, he's dealing hundreds points of damage at level 20, and that wizard is dealing even more. This doesn't get any better considering that a lot of threats at epic do not even care about your health, but your saves, immunities and skill checks. That Forcecage does not care if you have 8000 or 10 health. It cares if you have escape artist in hundreds. Anyone on the offense can just choose your weakness to target. You cannot really cover every single thing that can be thrown at you. You can, however, use all that money to increase your damage output and hope to kill the opposition before they can use their pretty powers.
In epic, Offense is the best defense. Often it is also the only defense your character has. Even at times that is not the case, it might be the only relevant one.
I do not claim that this is a bad thing, though. Hitting each other hard and having the risk to die is a good thing. I am just saying that it is what you do, and saying that "my character is a tank" doesn't make sense if what you are doing is exactly the same thing as the character next to you.
TL;DR: Killing stuff is easier than surviving getting killed. It is also more appealing to most people and most probably more beneficial to your allies.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
So Caex whats the status on the campaign? a rooster as well as a deadline would be great since i have been putting off finishing the Bio because i see no action going on here.
Sceluk a few nitpicks:
1) You have a max progression of Scout and Ranger features (Favored enemies and Skirmish), yet i see no way you could do this, your feats show Swift Ambusher which lets you stack Rogue and Scout Levels for Skirmish Damage (so you would have a level 18 Scout's Skirmish), so i dont see how you got the maxed Favored Enemy, even if you do take Swift Hunter your Favored enemy would still only be equivalent to a 5th level Ranger (although your skirmish would be equivalent to a 20th level Scout since both Swift Hunter and Ambusher stack here).
2) I dont see your Sneak Attack value anywhere (remember Swift Ambusher does not stack Scout and Rogue levels for SA value only for the availability of getting ambush feats so your Sneak Attack is still equivalent to a level 15 Rogue.)
3) A list of Spells as well as Invocations is needed and for the love of all thats holy do not forget to get Vitriolic Blast it is perhaps the single most important Essence you will need at this level since Epic is riddled with Spell Resistance and you want something to bypass it (additionally you may want to check the Epic Insight article at wizards for Epic Feats, you have no way of qualifying yet but Lord of All Essences is something you will need at epic since it will let you add a spell as well as a Vitriolic Blast to your EB)
^^^This.
Amadi and I have been discussing his character (which is extremely interesting, by the way). I'd like to get it started early next week. I've been doing house rennovations like crazy (got the island set up in the kitchen finally, just started painting the front room), which is why I've been absent from the site for a while, and I will continue to be moderately absent up until... maybe this weekend? Or a little longer. Not quite sure when I'm gonna have to redo the floors, so any time between now and next week some time is a possibility.
Whaa! I forgot to ban all those feats from Complete Adventurer that let you stack your levels from two different classes.
Consider those banned, as they are cheesy as hell in gestalt.
{Magic: The RPG}
In Sceluk's defense, he's not using them to stack classes on different sides of progression to end up with ridiculous benefits, and his character is not extremely strong even with those feats.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I actually Agree with Amadi here, the feats (so long as the classes are on the same side of the progression) are actually quite balanced and in truth no more broken than the fact i can Still/Silent/Eschew Weird while at the same time doing a bard song with no change in the slot requirement... or the fact i can cast save or die spells while also doing a song and no one knowing about it because im also doing a mime act of being a statue
@Sceluk: its cool, just me nitpicking and reminding you of the missing work, its happened to me that i stop at a late hour and then later forget about the spell list because i thought i had it done already.
How about this rule: You can only take those feats if the related classes are on the same side of your progression.
In related news: Characters sheets? Anyone who hasn't posted theirs please make an effort to do so this week.
{Magic: The RPG}
Julian McHemlim also known as Julian "Crimson Bard" McHemlim