In this thread, we will make a case of BALANCING RACES. One of the more difficult concepts to deal with according to most players, even many experienced and ancient DM's have a hard time with this.
The first exercise will be Balancing a drow to a 0 La.
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf’s automatic and bonus languages.
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area.
Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf’s favored class.
@sutherlands: Thing is, compare that to the BEST comparison, another elf race. Compared to a standard PHB elf race, your Drow is hopelessly weaker.
No bonus to will saves, same vision, overall +0 to stats.
Primary problem is the Light Blindness.
Thats effectively bending them over your knee and making them useless. Let us say that a daylight spell occurs. Suddenly, their ac gets -2 an they lose their dex to Ac.
By itself thats a *****, but then think in additoon to all of that, they treat opponents as having displacement which is 50% miss rate, -4 on search and ALL Dex/str related checks, and moves at half speed.
Although it likely wont come up OFTEN its still a SIZABLE penalty for a race with little benefits.
So, if you were to get rid of all those abilities, you would have to remove light blindness, at which point they become a bad Grey Elf.
EDIT: Apologies if that came off as rude. No intended.
True. I didn't look at elf traits before. Let's try this again. The point of the drow is that they live in the darkness, and their spells control the darkness, etc.
+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution.
Medium size.
An elf’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. (Not reflected in the saving throw modifiers given here.)
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, undercommon.
Basically a high elf with different weapon proficiencies and an extra language. All the other stuff (SR, bonus ability scores, spell-like abilities) can't be had without the setback. I'd settle for giving them the spell-like abilities and the light blindness. You can't really remove anything else to give them the spell-like abilities because then they're not really an elf.
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Shrug, the one problem I see with this drow now is that it's rather bland, a lot of the things removed are thematically drow....
Your first incarnation wasn't bad persay, but you could've left more of the benefits to compensate for the light blindness. Charisma for example is a relatively minor stat except for those who build to use it, so leaving that boosted wouldn't have hurt anything. A consideration would've been to modify the spell-like abilities if you thought they were too much.
Agreed your Drow is quite Balanced and Quite Elf-y.
Again, thing is, why get rid of the blindness? It is what makes the drow, the drow. Why not keep the light blindness and use it to make the Drow Stronger?
That's basically the point and why i chose the Drow. They are a race with alot of history and flavor and can be either reduced down to the elf stereo-type, *like you did, absolutely nothing really wrong with it* or they could be made different and stronger.
What would be wrong with Drow Traits (EX)
These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted.
-2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. This replaces the high elf's stat adjustments.
Darkvision out to 80 feet. This trait replaces the high elf’s low-light vision. (reduced)
Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like ability once per day: Faerie Fire. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels. *incredibly minor*
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency.
Automatic Languages: An arctic drow knows Common and Elven while a subterranean drow knows Undercommon and Elven. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Common (subterranean), Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin, Undercommon (arctic). This trait replaces the high elf’s automatic and bonus languages.
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Well, my latest incarnation is strictly better than the first one. As said, you can add the spells and put the drawback with it, IMO. You can be dazzled, but you can also make it dark, etc. This would make it less bland, and make it more drow. As for the Cha, having +2 int and -2 con is already a bonus, and I see no reason to give them an extra ability mod.
Oh yeah, I would give them darkvision instead of low-light too... forgot about that.
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Well, see thats the thing, there's nothing wrong with your drow.
And depending how you want to DM it would be fine. Thing is, Darkness, Faerie Fire, and Dancing Lights are all pretty... meh. They are non-offensive, and except for Faerie Fire, dont really serve any purpose for most players.
I forget WHERE exactly i got this information but i shall post what quite a few Dm's concider to be the 'Point Value' of a race.
+2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, +2 dex, -2 Con (+1 ish.)
Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, the rapier, and the short sword. This trait replaces the high elf’s weapon proficiency. (-)
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf’s automatic and bonus languages. (Meh)
Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. (-1.5 LA)
Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf’s favored class.
Level adjustment +2.
Now add it all up:
stats = +1
Vision = +.5
Spell like Abilities = +.5
Spell Resistance = +2
Light Blindness = -1.5
This add's up to 2.5 LA. But since you generally round down, that ends up 2.0 LA.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
That's actually a pretty good point, though for race things, you can't be prepared for everything, thats the thing. A DM can modify it depending on the campaign used because some features of a race may not just come up.
Actually, I see Light Blindness as a lot less of a negative than 1.5 CL. The most it does is a daze and a -1 to attack (and search and spot, but meh). Also, the bonus to ability scores I see as much more than +1. Also, when you "add up" the modifiers like that, you have to take into account that even the LA0 races get something.
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Thats actually pretty good.
Darkvision usually isn't too big a deal, while it SEEMS useful a lot of DM's just don't really bother doing it right or putting it to nearly any use. most times a character does have darkvision, its forgot about by both players and Dm's.
That's the same point with Light sensitivity. If your DM uses that effectively, its effectively like lowering your bab a full level, and if you try to say that doesnt hurt, try it at a lower level.
For Rogues, Wizards, Druids, and most of the non-fighter classes, that means their BAB is -1 during daylight. -1 to spot and search, which hurts a fair bit for rogues/trapfinding classes at low levels.
Sure, at high levels, Light sensitivity doesnt matter in the slightest really. But at low levels, it hurts like the dickens, even for the dedicated fighter classes. It's the same reason you dont take power attack, you need every point of + to hit you can get.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
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The first exercise will be Balancing a drow to a 0 La.
For the record
What would you do to make this a 0 LA.
Low-Light vision
No SR
No +Will
No Spell-like abilities
Keep WP
Light blindness
Compared to Human:
Human get 1 feat and 1 SP/level
new Drow get 1 feat (WP:Hand Crossbow), ability mods, low-light vision and light blindness
The ability mods is an overall +, the feat is +, the low-light vision is +, and the blindness is -
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
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No bonus to will saves, same vision, overall +0 to stats.
Primary problem is the Light Blindness.
Thats effectively bending them over your knee and making them useless. Let us say that a daylight spell occurs. Suddenly, their ac gets -2 an they lose their dex to Ac.
By itself thats a *****, but then think in additoon to all of that, they treat opponents as having displacement which is 50% miss rate, -4 on search and ALL Dex/str related checks, and moves at half speed.
Although it likely wont come up OFTEN its still a SIZABLE penalty for a race with little benefits.
So, if you were to get rid of all those abilities, you would have to remove light blindness, at which point they become a bad Grey Elf.
EDIT: Apologies if that came off as rude. No intended.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Your first incarnation wasn't bad persay, but you could've left more of the benefits to compensate for the light blindness. Charisma for example is a relatively minor stat except for those who build to use it, so leaving that boosted wouldn't have hurt anything. A consideration would've been to modify the spell-like abilities if you thought they were too much.
Again, thing is, why get rid of the blindness? It is what makes the drow, the drow. Why not keep the light blindness and use it to make the Drow Stronger?
That's basically the point and why i chose the Drow. They are a race with alot of history and flavor and can be either reduced down to the elf stereo-type, *like you did, absolutely nothing really wrong with it* or they could be made different and stronger.
What would be wrong with Drow Traits (EX)
These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted.
Oh yeah, I would give them darkvision instead of low-light too... forgot about that.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
And depending how you want to DM it would be fine. Thing is, Darkness, Faerie Fire, and Dancing Lights are all pretty... meh. They are non-offensive, and except for Faerie Fire, dont really serve any purpose for most players.
I forget WHERE exactly i got this information but i shall post what quite a few Dm's concider to be the 'Point Value' of a race.
stats = +1
Vision = +.5
Spell like Abilities = +.5
Spell Resistance = +2
Light Blindness = -1.5
This add's up to 2.5 LA. But since you generally round down, that ends up 2.0 LA.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Darkvision usually isn't too big a deal, while it SEEMS useful a lot of DM's just don't really bother doing it right or putting it to nearly any use. most times a character does have darkvision, its forgot about by both players and Dm's.
That's the same point with Light sensitivity. If your DM uses that effectively, its effectively like lowering your bab a full level, and if you try to say that doesnt hurt, try it at a lower level.
For Rogues, Wizards, Druids, and most of the non-fighter classes, that means their BAB is -1 during daylight. -1 to spot and search, which hurts a fair bit for rogues/trapfinding classes at low levels.
Sure, at high levels, Light sensitivity doesnt matter in the slightest really. But at low levels, it hurts like the dickens, even for the dedicated fighter classes. It's the same reason you dont take power attack, you need every point of + to hit you can get.