This seems to be a very popular system for ability score generation in our P&PI games. This stick'd thread is to just educate you on exactly what that system is, for those of you who are unaware.
Point buy systems are very simple. They usually have the character's scores all start at a base number, then the player is given points to distribute among their six scores to increase those scores, with the point cost of raising those scores increasing as you go higher.
Standard Point Buy All scores start at 8. The player is given 25 points. To raise an ability by 1 point up to as high as 14, it requires 1 point each. To go to 15 or 16 it costs two, 17 or 18 it costs 3.
Nonstandard Point Buy Same as standard in terms of starting scores and raising the abilities, but it depends on the power level of the campaign.
Low-powered: 15
Challenging: 22
Tougher: 28
High-powered: 32
Mamelon Point Buy All scores start at 10. The player is given 32 points. To raise an ability by 1 point up to as high as 16, it requires 1 point each. To go to 17 or 18 it requires 2.
I like this system so much I use it in my games at home.
It's been universally popular because it allows the creation of a character that is well-balanced, no matter the class, even if you're suffering multiple attribute dependency (monk, paladin, favored soul, swordsage, warblade, etc).
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I have yet to have a player who complained when I told him or her that we were using this system.
Sometimes they try to wheedle more points out of me, but no one complains. On occasion, I've allowed extra points...if they give up something like feats.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I am of the opinion that 32 points is for pansies.
As in, 4d6 drop is overpowered.
3d6 or 22 points (starting on 8) is what real men (and ladies) play with.
When everyone you face is using the same standard, it isn't. It makes for explosive, engaging, and fun encounters.
When you fail everything, or look like a peasant, it's boring.
I think the real point is that a lot of people find higher powered characters more fun to play. With Mamelon point-buy, you can make characters that feel like "wait, I'm not supposed to be able to do that at this level, am I?" That makes the game cooler and more interesting to play as long as it doesn't throw the balance off.
As such, I think the higher powered characters are a good idea as long as everyone in the party gets the same power level and the DM adjusts the encounters to still make them fun for high-powered characters (generally one bugbear is not a good encounter for four level 1-2 characters when you use Mamelon point-buy...).
While I can agree about your second paragraph, when you face an enemy with class levels, and everyone's using Mamelon Point-buy, it gets hectic quickly. Those type of fights make defeating that enemy seem like you accomplished something, versus simply getting better rolls.
Then,when you find the bugbears, you destroy them. With varying combat like that, the fights don't become stale and predictable. I mean, who doesn't like obliterating an enemy every now and then?
With ANY ability score-generating system, most of the issue isn't with the scores; it's with the DM. A good DM can spot a powerful team of players quickly, and can compensate by upping the DCs and CRs of the challenges, and vice versa. A poor DM follows the book and doesn't try to gauge things, and ends up watching one side getting trampled on (In the high-powered case, it's the players trampling the enemies. In the low-powered it's the opposite.)
Enemies with class levels are a different story altogether. I would say that a DM in their right mind would and should never generate an enemy with class levels using the Mamelon point buy system, but should instead make stats based on how good (or crappy) the players are.
That being said, the Mamelon point system is good for generic, above-average stats.
YuanTi, I am not saying (and I don't think anyone here disagrees with what I'm about to say here) that running a lower-powered campaign can't be fun. We all have different tastes. The truth is, the Pen & Paper Inn has not officially 'sanctioned' the Mamelon Point-Buy system for its games, nor does it require any rules on how to allocate ability points. We're not arguing with you, it's just that most of us find this system to work for us.
The vast majority of the enemies I utilize are intelligent enemies with class levels- and I use whatever generation method my players used on them.
This is also why I don't overly restrict my players- whatever the players can do, the enemies can do, and usually with more evil involved.
I enjoy higher-powered campaigns, especially lately; I refer to level 1 as the "death level", because who wants to spend all that time creating a character and trying to get into that character's mindset only to have them die because an orc got lucky with a falchion?
What everyone should remember is that anything in D&D is only a guideline, not a hard and fast unbreakable rule.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I have had too many of my low-level characters brutally murdered by orcs, goblins, gnolls, even kobolds to fully endorse 3D6 D20 gaming. It's just really frustrating for the players when the only reason why they can survive encounters is because the DM fudges the dice rolls.
That being said, if you've found a way to stop that from happening in your game, yuan, good on you.
Different playstyles generally mean different ways of doing things.
I would never make a player rolld 3d6 and take then as rolled straight down, becaus ethat could make some character concepts totally unplayable. ("I wanted to play a sorcerer, but unfortunately I rolled a 6 Cha...)
If your group enjoys playing slightly underpowered PCs (by that I mean not using the Elite Array, which is equivalent to a 25 point buy as shown in the PHB, and I call the elite array the Trash Array) then more power to them; it's bound to be a very tough challenge.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
I just want to say I find it funny that this is still being used, let alone being used so ubiquitously. You know the funniest part? We've actually started to phase it out because the powerful PCs have gotten boring.
Now, we prefer to use this system, but with a 24 point buy- and usually starting from 8 in a stat, rather than 10. Still, there are merits to using the higher totals, too, just as their are merits to the roll 3d6 method.
Another thing to point out that we use this system in games where characters typically do not get as many stat raising magic items, if they receive them at all. So the characters start out with higher stats, but do not get the standard upgrades in the forms of equipment later on.
Point buy systems are very simple. They usually have the character's scores all start at a base number, then the player is given points to distribute among their six scores to increase those scores, with the point cost of raising those scores increasing as you go higher.
Standard Point Buy
All scores start at 8. The player is given 25 points. To raise an ability by 1 point up to as high as 14, it requires 1 point each. To go to 15 or 16 it costs two, 17 or 18 it costs 3.
Nonstandard Point Buy
Same as standard in terms of starting scores and raising the abilities, but it depends on the power level of the campaign.
Low-powered: 15
Challenging: 22
Tougher: 28
High-powered: 32
Mamelon Point Buy
All scores start at 10. The player is given 32 points. To raise an ability by 1 point up to as high as 16, it requires 1 point each. To go to 17 or 18 it requires 2.
Here's a simple table.
Ability Score Point Cost
11 1
12 2
13 3
14 4
15 5
16 6
17 8
18 10
This system has proven effective in generating all-round, good-statted characters.
Any questions, feel free to ask.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
It's been universally popular because it allows the creation of a character that is well-balanced, no matter the class, even if you're suffering multiple attribute dependency (monk, paladin, favored soul, swordsage, warblade, etc).
:cookie::cookie:
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Sometimes they try to wheedle more points out of me, but no one complains. On occasion, I've allowed extra points...if they give up something like feats.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
When everyone you face is using the same standard, it isn't. It makes for explosive, engaging, and fun encounters.
When you fail everything, or look like a peasant, it's boring.
I think the real point is that a lot of people find higher powered characters more fun to play. With Mamelon point-buy, you can make characters that feel like "wait, I'm not supposed to be able to do that at this level, am I?" That makes the game cooler and more interesting to play as long as it doesn't throw the balance off.
As such, I think the higher powered characters are a good idea as long as everyone in the party gets the same power level and the DM adjusts the encounters to still make them fun for high-powered characters (generally one bugbear is not a good encounter for four level 1-2 characters when you use Mamelon point-buy...).
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
Then,when you find the bugbears, you destroy them. With varying combat like that, the fights don't become stale and predictable. I mean, who doesn't like obliterating an enemy every now and then?
Enemies with class levels are a different story altogether. I would say that a DM in their right mind would and should never generate an enemy with class levels using the Mamelon point buy system, but should instead make stats based on how good (or crappy) the players are.
That being said, the Mamelon point system is good for generic, above-average stats.
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
Like freeform roleplaying? Try Darkness Befalls Us
Ryttare Kelasin Luna Orelinalei
This is also why I don't overly restrict my players- whatever the players can do, the enemies can do, and usually with more evil involved.
I enjoy higher-powered campaigns, especially lately; I refer to level 1 as the "death level", because who wants to spend all that time creating a character and trying to get into that character's mindset only to have them die because an orc got lucky with a falchion?
What everyone should remember is that anything in D&D is only a guideline, not a hard and fast unbreakable rule.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
That being said, if you've found a way to stop that from happening in your game, yuan, good on you.
I would never make a player rolld 3d6 and take then as rolled straight down, becaus ethat could make some character concepts totally unplayable. ("I wanted to play a sorcerer, but unfortunately I rolled a 6 Cha...)
If your group enjoys playing slightly underpowered PCs (by that I mean not using the Elite Array, which is equivalent to a 25 point buy as shown in the PHB, and I call the elite array the Trash Array) then more power to them; it's bound to be a very tough challenge.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
Now, we prefer to use this system, but with a 24 point buy- and usually starting from 8 in a stat, rather than 10. Still, there are merits to using the higher totals, too, just as their are merits to the roll 3d6 method.
Another thing to point out that we use this system in games where characters typically do not get as many stat raising magic items, if they receive them at all. So the characters start out with higher stats, but do not get the standard upgrades in the forms of equipment later on.