This is the results thread for Perfect Hand Magic League 33:03.
Commentary
This week was all about breaking the game. Most players used the round rules to create an infinite mana combo in order to lock out the game or drop a huge threat very quickly. Pretty good for a 3 card deck!
Next week's format will be "5 Card Modern" - Nice and simple! Check it out in next week's thread.
3 Card Broken v2
Abilities of creatures with or in their costs can be activated without paying these costs. Activate these abilities only any time that they could normally be activated.
If a creature or artifact would be put into a graveyard as part of the cost of an ability, it remains in play instead.
Note: Creatures are still affected by summoning sickness. Already-tapped creatures (e.g. attacking creatures) cannot be tapped.
Deck Size: 3 Land Rule: None Additional Banned list: None (please remember to check Land Rule and regular PHM Banned Lists)
04 Danxor :: "Life" Zuran Orb / Tree of Tales / Helix Pinnacle The infinite life combo is nice, however you are still slow and vulnerable to other forms of attack
1. Overview
2. Game Rules
3. Deck Construction Rules
4. Entry
5. Perfect Hand Magic League
6. Scoring
7. Variant Format Rules
1. Overview
Perfect Hand Magic (PHM) is a competitive strategy game for two or more players. It can be played using pencil and paper; however, it's most commonly played via online forum. To play the game, each player secretly chooses a specified number of Magic cards which form that player's hand. Once all players have chosen hands, the hands are revealed and scored.
The object of the game is to choose the hand that will score the most points. The score for each hand is determined by the result that it would achieve if it were used to play two games of Magic – one match – against each competing hand; the rules for these theoretical games are covered in Section 2 – Game Rules. During each theoretical game, the theoretical player of each hand employs the strategy that will maximize the score for his or her hand, taking into account the strategy of his or her opponent.
A hand scores 3 points for each game that it would win, 0 points for each game it would lose, and 1 point for each game that would end in a draw. However, a hand scores only 2 points for any match that would have a symmetrical result, regardless of whether the result would be two drawn games or a win for each hand.
The composition of a hand is limited only by a short banned list and a few restrictions on the game states that it can enable; these restrictions are covered in Section 3 – Deck Composition.
2. Game Rules
2.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules for a normal game of Magic.
2.1a. Changes to the Comprehensive Rules or the Oracle text of a card take effect at the following times:
i. Changes that would take effect during the prerelease for a set take effect during the first round for which cards from that set may be submitted instead.
ii. Changes that would take effect at any other time take effect during the first round for which those rules have been in effect since the start of the round instead.
2.1b. Ignore any part of an instruction that isn't covered by these rules or the rules of Magic.
2.2. A player's opening hand contains that player's chosen cards.
2.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty.
2.3a. A player doesn't lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
2.4. A cost or effect that would produce a random result produces the result that least benefits the player who paid that cost or the owner of the source of that effect instead.
2.5. Each player is the starting player for one game in each match.
2.6. Players know the identities of all face-down cards and cards in hidden zones, and players know which decisions have been made by other players.
2.7. If a game would continue indefinitely, then the game is a draw.
2.8. If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.
2.9. Cards can't be brought into the game from outside the game.
3. Hand Construction Rules
3.1. A player may not choose an opening hand that could enable that player to achieve any of the following results before an opponent's second turn would begin, such that that opponent could make no sequence of decisions that would not result in at least one of these results:
i. win the game
ii. take an infinite number of turns
iii. cause a card to leave an opponent's hand.
Ignore this rule in the following cases:
3.1a. That player's hand would be legal if that player's opponents' cards had no rules text.
3.1b. That player's hand would be legal if that player's opponents had no maximum hand size.
3.1c. That player could achieve one of these results only during a game that was restarted after an opponent's second turn had begun.
3.1d. All cards that would leave an opponent's hand during the resolution of an effect would be put onto the battlefield by that effect.
3.1e. All cards that would leave an opponent's hand during the resolution of an effect would be in that opponent's hand once that effect resolved.
3.2. A hand may contain any number of copies of any card legal in Vintage.
3.2a. An unreleased card is treated as though it's legal in Vintage if it will become legal in Vintage upon release and if the release notes for the set that contains that card were published prior to the start of the round (See rule 4.1).
3.3. A hand may not contain any cards on the PHM Banned List.
4. Entry
4.1. A player plays a round of PHM by submitting a list of his or her chosen cards to the PHM moderator.
4.2. A player may change his or her hand until the posted deadline.
4.2a. If a player submits an illegal hand, then the moderator will try to notify that player to change his or her hand prior to the deadline. If the hand is discovered to be illegal after the deadline – or if the player does not submit a new hand – then the moderator may either disqualify that hand or replace it with a similar hand, in which any cards causing that hand to be illegal have been removed or replaced.
4.2b. The moderator also will try to notify a player if that player's hand doesn't enable that player to win the game against any possible hand.
4.3. A player may name his or her hand. If that player doesn't, then the PHM moderator may name it. The PHM moderator may also rename a player's hand at his or discretion.
5. Perfect Hand Magic League
5.1. PHM League play consists of four rounds of PHM.
5.2. Each round, a player earns League points according to the following formula:
League Points = Points Scored / Number of Opponents x 100 (rounded to the nearest integer)
5.3. The player with the most League points at the end of League play is the PHM League winner.
5.3a. If multiple players have the most League points at the end of the League, then the PHM moderator may allow those players to play additional rounds until only one of those players has the most League points or until a specified number of additional rounds have been played.
6. Scoring
6.1. A table of match results is posted at the end of each round. Each row lists one player's results against each other player. A player's points and League points are tallied at the end of his or her row.
6.2. A player may earn bonus League points as specified by the PHM moderator.
6.3. Each player is responsible for determining the match results for his or her hand.
6.3a. Players are encouraged to determine or verify additional match results.
6.3b. An undetermined match result is counted as a loss for both players in that match.
6.3c. A player may challenge any result until the moderator announces that the result is final.
7. Variant Format Rules
7.1. Perfect Hand Magic has been played with hands containing between one and seven cards. Additionally, the Game Rules and Deck Construction Rules have been adapted to create hundreds of variant formats. Five commonly-played variants are described in Sections 7.3-7.7.
7.2. The rules of a variant format overwrite any other applicable rules.
7.2a. Some variant formats generate continuous effects. A continuous effect generated by a variant format is treated as having the earliest timestamp within a layer or sublayer. If continuous effects generated by multiple variant formats would apply in the same layer or sublayer, assign timestamps to those effects in the order that the variant formats are listed in the rules or name of the round.
7.2b. Some variant formats require a player to make some number of decisions in addition to or instead of submitting a hand. A player's submission must comply with the Hand Construction Rules, taking into account any decisions made at this time.
7.2c. Some variant formats require players to make decisions "before the start of each game". For these decisions, follow the "Active Player, Nonactive Player order" rule, replacing "active player" with "starting player".
7.3. Land Rule Variant.
7.3a. This is the basic land rule (LR). Any player may play a basic land or basic snow land of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land. A hand may not contain any cards on the Land Rule Banned List.
7.3b. This is the extra land rule (ELR). Any player may play a basic land or basic snow land of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land. Any player may play an additional land on each of his or her turns from his or her hand. A hand may not contain any cards on the Land Rule Banned List.
7.3c. This is the draw land rule (DLR). If a player would draw a card from an empty library, that player puts a basic land or basic snow land card of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game into his or her hand instead. The starting player doesn't skip the draw step of his or her first turn. A hand may not contain any cards on the Land Rule Banned List.
7.4a. Only cards contained in sets legal in the named format may be submitted.
7.5. Life Rule (LF).
7.5a. If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game.
7.5b. A player must choose an opening hand that enables that player to win both games of a match against at least one legal hand, irrespective of rule 7.5a.
7.6. Backbuild.
7.6a. Players exchanges hands before the start of each match. A hand must enable the player of that hand to win both games of a match against a specified hand or specified hands. Ignore rule 3.1.
7.7. Bonus Points.
7.7a. A player earns bonus points if his or her hand meets specified requirements.
PHM Banned List
The following cards are automatically banned in all Perfect Hand Magic League rounds unless otherwise specified by the round rules. Each round may have an additional banned list that extends beyond, but always includes, these cards.
Land Rule Banned List
"Land Rule" is the most common variant for PHM, and thus a separate ban list has been developed to allow for easier moderation. The following cards are banned in Perfect Hand Magic League rounds when a Land Rule is used. There will be a reminder of this on the round rules.
vs. 01 Madmanquail: Since Sprout Swarm and Emrakul goldfish at the same speed, I shall assume Emrakul is legal and get my 3-3
vs. 02 Feyd_Ruin: See previous. 3-3
vs. 03 nerdyjoe: I believe Dryad Arbor infimana beats Spiketail Drake. 6-0
vs. 04 Danxor: Infinite life loses to annihilator. 6-0
vs. 05 tomsloger: Projenitus < Emrakul. 6-0
vs. 06 Stomageddonx: Dryad Arbor beats until Lotus drops, then Emrakul kills it. Also see 03. 6-0
As for Essorant: Decks that can't do anything should not be allowed, did we change that rule?... swapping in Wild Cantor for Decree of Silence is the best fix I can think of and it's not great (it at least allows him to cast *something*. Or Wild Cantor/Decree of Silence/Chancellor of the Tangle?)
01 Madmanquail :: Dryad Arbor / Sprout Swarm / Mindslaver
3-3
Slaver stops me from doing anything turn 2 on your play, but on my play I can drop Squirrel Nest before Slaver hits. Slaver can't get rid of nest, nor stop my from making dudes on your turn. This lets me make a billion dudes to block your billion dudes. Afterwards, I use Dark Depth and fly over your guys.
03 nerdyjoe :: Cavern of Souls / Wild Cantor / Spiketail Drake
6-0
I can always pay the mana, and it can't stop Depths anyways.
04 Danxor :: Zuran Orb / Tree of Tales / Helix Pinnacle
0-6
You can always gain the life equal to my swing, before damage.
05 tomsloger :: Cavern of Souls / Wild Cantor / Progenitus
3-3
We both kill 3rd. I overrun, you can't be blocked.
06 xStormaggedonx :: Black Lotus / Banishing Light / Spiketail Drakeling
6-0
Banishing Light can't hit Arbor, so I have infinite tokens before it can hit nest.
07 WhammeWhamme :: Reverent Silence / Dryad Arbor / Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
6-0
I make a billion tokens, Silence stops me from having more after that.. but a billion still works.
08 Essorant :: Lotus Petal / Decree of Silence / Garruk, Apex Predator
6-0
I decide to be nice and just attack with Arbor 20 times.
I originally submitted Emrakul instead of Dark Depths in my deck, which made it illegal. That may have led to the confusion on Em.
Assuming Emrakul is legal for WW (it should be):
I have a question on Feyd's matchups I don't see how your infinite mana can pay for infinite counters....
Unless we are considering this a voluntary infinite loop that means he has to stop countering to force the game to continue, though you also have the option to stop paying to force the loop to end....
As I see it the infinite pay 2's he can stack forces a draw if you choose to keep paying them.
This is mostly in regard to vs 6 on his play.
Looking into the comprehensive rules for infinite loops. I think that the inactive player has control over the outcome in this case, and thus controls the countering with the drake.
I have a question on Feyd's matchups I don't see how your infinite mana can pay for infinite counters....
Quote from PHM Comp Rules »
2.8. If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.
Even in normal magic, it would be a loop, and the judge would require a shortcut (or give a delay of game penalty under tournament rules if refused).
Middle of the pack. The only thing I couldn't deal with was quickly resolved quick threats and land threats.
Update: Due to how the rules ended up working out, spiketail drake was basically a 3/3 flier, well outclassed by all the other win-cons. Which kind of sucks, I expected it to work as a counterspell, instead it does nothing, and I didn't really have a way to know that ahead of time.
@feyd_ruin Under those circumstances, wouldn't you draw with #6 on his play due to his drake?
Looking at Magics comprehensive rules as this is a fragmented loop due to 2 separate infinite actions... it appears he would win out on this.
716.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
Example: In a two-player game, the active player controls a creature with the ability “{0}: [This creature] gains flying,” the nonactive player controls a permanent with the ability “{0}: Target creature loses flying,” and nothing in the game cares how many times an ability has been activated. Say the active player activates his creature’s ability, it resolves, then the nonactive player activates her permanent’s ability targeting that creature, and it resolves. This returns the game to a game state it was at before. The active player must make a different game choice (in other words, anything other than activating that creature’s ability again). The creature doesn’t have flying. Note that the nonactive player could have prevented the fragmented loop simply by not activating her permanent’s ability, in which case the creature would have had flying. The nonactive player always has the final choice and is therefore able to determine whether the creature has flying.
Ah, but that's fine: the active player generates a trillion mana, THEN casts their spell. Then in response to each activation of Spiketail whatever, you generate more mana and pay for it.
On the final iteration of the loop, use the man in your pool.
Or at least, that's how I THINK it works. Could be wrong. If so, fantastic, because Emrakul is uncounterable but other people's wincons are not.
1 0-6 mindslaver stops me attacking for lethal
2 3-3 agreed
3 3-3 agreed
4 0-6 agreed
5 X
6 definitely win on the play. on the draw we run into infinite counter vs infinite mana. see above.
7 0-6 agreed
8 6-0 i guess. if the deck changes so may this. if lotus petal worked like you thought this would be 3-3.
@feyd_ruin Under those circumstances, wouldn't you draw with #6 on his play due to his drake?
It's important to note that this is all actually inconsequential to our match, and my 6-0 win isn't at stake.
I can drop Dark Depths turn 2, then during his next end step make a 20/20 flyer. Untap, swing. He has to block to live. Spiketail is then dead, so I can cast Squirrel Nest unhindered, make a billion tokens, and kill him turn 4 without Banishing Light stopping me either.
I think it's important to continue the discussion though, for future clarity.
You will note that the "infinite loop shortcut" is not nearly a hard rule like the others within the comp rules. It has some interpretation and openness about it. The first sub rule of shortcuts is:
716.1a The rules for taking shortcuts are largely unformalized. As long as each player in the game understands the intent of each other player, any shortcut system they use is acceptable.
Now, the rule that confuses people into thinking the active player in our situation loses is:
Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
This applies to independent actions (such as two unrelated activated abilities, as in the example)
In this instance, I (or a player in a similar situation) am NOT performing an independent action.
When the opponent uses Spiketail Hatchling, the ability goes on the stack and resolves. During the resolution of that ability, I am granted a special action of being able to pay mana by that ability. It is important to note that the special action is part of that ability - because it is not an independent action - it is directly dependent of the ability of Spiketail. I use a mana ability during the resolution of that ability as part of the special action (you can't normally activate a mana ability without priority during the resolution of a spell/ability - unless you have a special action of paying mana available). Using a mana ability does not constitute independence either. It's a result of my choice for the special action.
The fact that I have a choice in the ability does not mean that I have to eventually make a different choice. For instance, in a normal game of magic, my opponent could have the ability "0: You gain 1 life unless an opponent pays 1 life". The opponent could activate that ability as many times as he wishes, but he is in full control of how many times to activate that, and is in control of the shortcut as to how many times it eventually happens. I do not have to eventually pay life and die. I always have the choice of letting him gain life. This ability would basically give the opponent infinite life, but it would not force me to lose the game. This same logic applies to whether or not I pay mana when I have a choice.
Now, beyond all of this, we have the PHM Rules, which override all MTG Comp Rules and Tournament Rules.
One of the rules we have is:
2.8. If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.
This rule overrides any normal rules for magic pertaining to infinite loops. Even when there are multiple optional actions, this rule applies since there is "at least one". This rule is explicit in that once the loop starts, there is a finite amount of times it happens. Even if my opponent decides to repeat the loop ten billion times, nothing is saying I have to make a different choice for any of them. The loop will happen X times, I will make a choice for each of them, and then the loop is over and the game continues. (And he can't decide to do the loop again).
Directly back to this match: He can activate Spiketail Hatchling as many times as he wants - but he must do so a finite number of times. One he decides how many times to use Spiketail, I get a choice for each one, and can decide to pay each time. Once the loop is finished, the spell will resolve. MTGComp rules support this because of the kind of loop it is (I'm not adding an independent action within the loop), and - more importantly - the PHM Rules are explicit in that this is the way it will happen.
(Also, again in case it was overlooked above, I will 6-0 regardless, via Dark Depths.)
This is the results thread for Perfect Hand Magic League 33:03.
Commentary
This week was all about breaking the game. Most players used the round rules to create an infinite mana combo in order to lock out the game or drop a huge threat very quickly. Pretty good for a 3 card deck!
Next week's format will be "5 Card Modern" - Nice and simple! Check it out in next week's thread.
3 Card Broken v2
- Abilities of creatures with
or 
in their costs can be activated without paying these costs. Activate these abilities only any time that they could normally be activated. - If a creature or artifact would be put into a graveyard as part of the cost of an ability, it remains in play instead.
Note: Creatures are still affected by summoning sickness. Already-tapped creatures (e.g. attacking creatures) cannot be tapped.Deck Size: 3
Land Rule: None
Additional Banned list: None (please remember to check Land Rule and regular PHM Banned Lists)
The Entries
01 Madmanquail :: "Mindsprouts"
Dryad Arbor / Sprout Swarm / Mindslaver
Loses to gut shot.dec
02 Feyd_Ruin :: "Squirrels in the Dark"
Dryad Arbor / Squirrel Nest / Dark Depths
Dryad Arbor is probably going to be this week's key card
03 nerdyjoe :: "Calling the Wild Drake"
Cavern of Souls / Wild Cantor / Spiketail Drake
Spiketail and Cantor are both nice finds
04 Danxor :: "Life"
Zuran Orb / Tree of Tales / Helix Pinnacle
The infinite life combo is nice, however you are still slow and vulnerable to other forms of attack
05 tomsloger :: "Calling the Wild…Hydra"
Cavern of Souls / Wild Cantor / Progenitus
Uncounterable progenitus is fancy.
06 xStormaggedonx :: "Banishing Drake"
Black Lotus / Banishing Light / Spiketail Drakeling
Turn 1 counter lock is nice, and banishing light is an interesting choice of removal.
07 WhammeWhamme :: "Silence of the Dryads"
Reverent Silence / Dryad Arbor / Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Emrakul switched for Kozilek
08 Essorant :: "Silent Predator"
Lotus Petal / Decree of Silence / Garruk, Apex Predator
Note: this deck cannot win - lotus petal has to tap for mana
The Grid X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | PT | Points
1| X 6 6 0 6 6 3 6 | 32 | 457
2| 3 X 6 0 3 6 3 6 | 24 | 343
3| 0 0 X 0 0 0 0 6 | 06 | 086
4| 6 6 3 X 6 3 0 6 | 28 | 400
5| 0 3 3 0 X 6 0 6 | 16 | 229
6| 0 0 6 3 0 X 0 6 | 14 | 200
7| 3 3 6 6 6 6 X 6 | 34 | 486
8| 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 X | 00 | 000
1. Overview
2. Game Rules
3. Deck Construction Rules
4. Entry
5. Perfect Hand Magic League
6. Scoring
7. Variant Format Rules
1. Overview
Perfect Hand Magic (PHM) is a competitive strategy game for two or more players. It can be played using pencil and paper; however, it's most commonly played via online forum. To play the game, each player secretly chooses a specified number of Magic cards which form that player's hand. Once all players have chosen hands, the hands are revealed and scored.
The object of the game is to choose the hand that will score the most points. The score for each hand is determined by the result that it would achieve if it were used to play two games of Magic – one match – against each competing hand; the rules for these theoretical games are covered in Section 2 – Game Rules. During each theoretical game, the theoretical player of each hand employs the strategy that will maximize the score for his or her hand, taking into account the strategy of his or her opponent.
A hand scores 3 points for each game that it would win, 0 points for each game it would lose, and 1 point for each game that would end in a draw. However, a hand scores only 2 points for any match that would have a symmetrical result, regardless of whether the result would be two drawn games or a win for each hand.
The composition of a hand is limited only by a short banned list and a few restrictions on the game states that it can enable; these restrictions are covered in Section 3 – Deck Composition.
2. Game Rules
2.1. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules for a normal game of Magic.
2.2. A player's opening hand contains that player's chosen cards.
2.3. Players' libraries begin the game empty.
2.4. A cost or effect that would produce a random result produces the result that least benefits the player who paid that cost or the owner of the source of that effect instead.
2.5. Each player is the starting player for one game in each match.
2.6. Players know the identities of all face-down cards and cards in hidden zones, and players know which decisions have been made by other players.
2.7. If a game would continue indefinitely, then the game is a draw.
2.8. If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a turn, then any player may propose a number of times for that loop to repeat instead. If a player does, then each other player may propose a different number and the loop is repeated for the greatest number of times proposed instead. No player is required to make a choice that would end a loop that crosses multiple turns.
2.9. Cards can't be brought into the game from outside the game.
3. Hand Construction Rules
3.1. A player may not choose an opening hand that could enable that player to achieve any of the following results before an opponent's second turn would begin, such that that opponent could make no sequence of decisions that would not result in at least one of these results:
Ignore this rule in the following cases:
3.2. A hand may contain any number of copies of any card legal in Vintage.
3.3. A hand may not contain any cards on the PHM Banned List.
4. Entry
4.1. A player plays a round of PHM by submitting a list of his or her chosen cards to the PHM moderator.
4.2. A player may change his or her hand until the posted deadline.
4.3. A player may name his or her hand. If that player doesn't, then the PHM moderator may name it. The PHM moderator may also rename a player's hand at his or discretion.
5. Perfect Hand Magic League
5.1. PHM League play consists of four rounds of PHM.
5.2. Each round, a player earns League points according to the following formula:
5.3. The player with the most League points at the end of League play is the PHM League winner.
6. Scoring
6.1. A table of match results is posted at the end of each round. Each row lists one player's results against each other player. A player's points and League points are tallied at the end of his or her row.
6.2. A player may earn bonus League points as specified by the PHM moderator.
6.3. Each player is responsible for determining the match results for his or her hand.
7. Variant Format Rules
7.1. Perfect Hand Magic has been played with hands containing between one and seven cards. Additionally, the Game Rules and Deck Construction Rules have been adapted to create hundreds of variant formats. Five commonly-played variants are described in Sections 7.3-7.7.
7.2. The rules of a variant format overwrite any other applicable rules.
7.3. Land Rule Variant.
7.4. Sanctioned Magic Format Variant.
7.5. Life Rule (LF).
7.6. Backbuild.
7.7. Bonus Points.
PHM Banned List
The following cards are automatically banned in all Perfect Hand Magic League rounds unless otherwise specified by the round rules. Each round may have an additional banned list that extends beyond, but always includes, these cards.
Acceleration
Channel
Fastbond
Flash
Show and Tell
Disruption
Pact of Negation
Chancellor of the Annex
Force of Will
Leyline of Anticipation
Trinisphere
Lands
Ghost Quarter
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Win Conditions
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Barren Glory
Laboratory Maniac
Magus of the Moon
Meddling Mage
The Rack
Vampire Hexmage
Land Rule Banned List
"Land Rule" is the most common variant for PHM, and thus a separate ban list has been developed to allow for easier moderation. The following cards are banned in Perfect Hand Magic League rounds when a Land Rule is used. There will be a reminder of this on the round rules.
Acceleration
Black Lotus
Disruption
Balancing Act
Energy Field
Time Walk
Win Conditions
Beacon of Creation
Maralen of the Mornsong
Nezumi Shortfang
Red Sun's Zenith
White Sun's Zenith
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please note deck 8 cannot win - sorry Essorant, I didn't catch this in the checks - apologies
Deck 7 (whammewhamme) has been modified (emrakul -> kozilek)
Next week's format vote will be for 3 simple-ish formats as per the poll.
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04 Danxor :: "Life"
Zuran Orb / Tree of Tales / Helix Pinnacle
X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | PT
4 | 6 6 3 X 6 3 0 6 | 28
vs1 Madmanquail 6 - 0
Mindslaver can't disrupt me, infinite life stalls infinite creatures.
vs2 Feyd_Ruin 6 - 0
No interactions, infinite life stalls infinite squirrels
vs3 nerdyjoe 3 - 3
I can't win on draw, I win on play as I get all my cards out.
vs5 tomsloger 6 - 0
Infinite life staves off the attacks
vs6 Stormaggedonx 3 - 3
I can't win on draw, I win on play as I get all my cards out, and banishing light can't hit Helix pinnacle or Tree of Tales
vs7 WhammeWhamme 0 - 6
Krozilek and Silence both wreck my world
vs8 Essorant 6 - 0
Sad times
vs. 01 Madmanquail: Since Sprout Swarm and Emrakul goldfish at the same speed, I shall assume Emrakul is legal and get my 3-3
vs. 02 Feyd_Ruin: See previous. 3-3
vs. 03 nerdyjoe: I believe Dryad Arbor infimana beats Spiketail Drake. 6-0
vs. 04 Danxor: Infinite life loses to annihilator. 6-0
vs. 05 tomsloger: Projenitus < Emrakul. 6-0
vs. 06 Stomageddonx: Dryad Arbor beats until Lotus drops, then Emrakul kills it. Also see 03. 6-0
As for Essorant: Decks that can't do anything should not be allowed, did we change that rule?... swapping in Wild Cantor for Decree of Silence is the best fix I can think of and it's not great (it at least allows him to cast *something*. Or Wild Cantor/Decree of Silence/Chancellor of the Tangle?)
2 | 3 X 6 0 3 6 6 6 | 28 | 400
01 Madmanquail :: Dryad Arbor / Sprout Swarm / Mindslaver
3-3
Slaver stops me from doing anything turn 2 on your play, but on my play I can drop Squirrel Nest before Slaver hits. Slaver can't get rid of nest, nor stop my from making dudes on your turn. This lets me make a billion dudes to block your billion dudes. Afterwards, I use Dark Depth and fly over your guys.
02 Feyd_Ruin ::
Dryad Arbor / Squirrel Nest / Dark Depths
XXXXX
03 nerdyjoe :: Cavern of Souls / Wild Cantor / Spiketail Drake
6-0
I can always pay the mana, and it can't stop Depths anyways.
04 Danxor :: Zuran Orb / Tree of Tales / Helix Pinnacle
0-6
You can always gain the life equal to my swing, before damage.
05 tomsloger :: Cavern of Souls / Wild Cantor / Progenitus
3-3
We both kill 3rd. I overrun, you can't be blocked.
06 xStormaggedonx :: Black Lotus / Banishing Light / Spiketail Drakeling
6-0
Banishing Light can't hit Arbor, so I have infinite tokens before it can hit nest.
07 WhammeWhamme :: Reverent Silence / Dryad Arbor / Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
6-0
I make a billion tokens, Silence stops me from having more after that.. but a billion still works.
08 Essorant :: Lotus Petal / Decree of Silence / Garruk, Apex Predator
6-0
I decide to be nice and just attack with Arbor 20 times.
I originally submitted Emrakul instead of Dark Depths in my deck, which made it illegal. That may have led to the confusion on Em.
Assuming Emrakul is legal for WW (it should be):
X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
2 | 3 X 6 0 3 6 3 6 | 24 | 343
No longer staff here.
Unless we are considering this a voluntary infinite loop that means he has to stop countering to force the game to continue, though you also have the option to stop paying to force the loop to end....
As I see it the infinite pay 2's he can stack forces a draw if you choose to keep paying them.
This is mostly in regard to vs 6 on his play.
Looking into the comprehensive rules for infinite loops. I think that the inactive player has control over the outcome in this case, and thus controls the countering with the drake.
Even in normal magic, it would be a loop, and the judge would require a shortcut (or give a delay of game penalty under tournament rules if refused).
No longer staff here.
XX | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | PT | Points
03 | 0 0 X 0 0 0 0 6 | 06 |
Middle of the pack. The only thing I couldn't deal with was quickly resolved quick threats and land threats.Update: Due to how the rules ended up working out, spiketail drake was basically a 3/3 flier, well outclassed by all the other win-cons. Which kind of sucks, I expected it to work as a counterspell, instead it does nothing, and I didn't really have a way to know that ahead of time.
Looking at Magics comprehensive rules as this is a fragmented loop due to 2 separate infinite actions... it appears he would win out on this.
716.3. Sometimes a loop can be fragmented, meaning that each player involved in the loop performs an independent action that results in the same game state being reached multiple times. If that happens, the active player (or, if the active player is not involved in the loop, the first player in turn order who is involved) must then make a different game choice so the loop does not continue.
Example: In a two-player game, the active player controls a creature with the ability “{0}: [This creature] gains flying,” the nonactive player controls a permanent with the ability “{0}: Target creature loses flying,” and nothing in the game cares how many times an ability has been activated. Say the active player activates his creature’s ability, it resolves, then the nonactive player activates her permanent’s ability targeting that creature, and it resolves. This returns the game to a game state it was at before. The active player must make a different game choice (in other words, anything other than activating that creature’s ability again). The creature doesn’t have flying. Note that the nonactive player could have prevented the fragmented loop simply by not activating her permanent’s ability, in which case the creature would have had flying. The nonactive player always has the final choice and is therefore able to determine whether the creature has flying.
On the final iteration of the loop, use the man in your pool.
Or at least, that's how I THINK it works. Could be wrong. If so, fantastic, because Emrakul is uncounterable but other people's wincons are not.
2 3-3 agreed
3 3-3 agreed
4 0-6 agreed
5 X
6 definitely win on the play. on the draw we run into infinite counter vs infinite mana. see above.
7 0-6 agreed
8 6-0 i guess. if the deck changes so may this. if lotus petal worked like you thought this would be 3-3.
5 | 0 3 3 0 X ? 0 6 |
It's important to note that this is all actually inconsequential to our match, and my 6-0 win isn't at stake.
I can drop Dark Depths turn 2, then during his next end step make a 20/20 flyer. Untap, swing. He has to block to live. Spiketail is then dead, so I can cast Squirrel Nest unhindered, make a billion tokens, and kill him turn 4 without Banishing Light stopping me either.
I think it's important to continue the discussion though, for future clarity.
You will note that the "infinite loop shortcut" is not nearly a hard rule like the others within the comp rules. It has some interpretation and openness about it. The first sub rule of shortcuts is:
Now, the rule that confuses people into thinking the active player in our situation loses is:
This applies to independent actions (such as two unrelated activated abilities, as in the example)
In this instance, I (or a player in a similar situation) am NOT performing an independent action.
When the opponent uses Spiketail Hatchling, the ability goes on the stack and resolves. During the resolution of that ability, I am granted a special action of being able to pay mana by that ability. It is important to note that the special action is part of that ability - because it is not an independent action - it is directly dependent of the ability of Spiketail. I use a mana ability during the resolution of that ability as part of the special action (you can't normally activate a mana ability without priority during the resolution of a spell/ability - unless you have a special action of paying mana available). Using a mana ability does not constitute independence either. It's a result of my choice for the special action.
The fact that I have a choice in the ability does not mean that I have to eventually make a different choice. For instance, in a normal game of magic, my opponent could have the ability "0: You gain 1 life unless an opponent pays 1 life". The opponent could activate that ability as many times as he wishes, but he is in full control of how many times to activate that, and is in control of the shortcut as to how many times it eventually happens. I do not have to eventually pay life and die. I always have the choice of letting him gain life. This ability would basically give the opponent infinite life, but it would not force me to lose the game. This same logic applies to whether or not I pay mana when I have a choice.
Now, beyond all of this, we have the PHM Rules, which override all MTG Comp Rules and Tournament Rules.
One of the rules we have is:
This rule overrides any normal rules for magic pertaining to infinite loops. Even when there are multiple optional actions, this rule applies since there is "at least one". This rule is explicit in that once the loop starts, there is a finite amount of times it happens. Even if my opponent decides to repeat the loop ten billion times, nothing is saying I have to make a different choice for any of them. The loop will happen X times, I will make a choice for each of them, and then the loop is over and the game continues. (And he can't decide to do the loop again).
Directly back to this match: He can activate Spiketail Hatchling as many times as he wants - but he must do so a finite number of times. One he decides how many times to use Spiketail, I get a choice for each one, and can decide to pay each time. Once the loop is finished, the spell will resolve. MTGComp rules support this because of the kind of loop it is (I'm not adding an independent action within the loop), and - more importantly - the PHM Rules are explicit in that this is the way it will happen.
(Also, again in case it was overlooked above, I will 6-0 regardless, via Dark Depths.)
No longer staff here.
1| X 6 6 0 6 6 3 6 | 32 | 457
2| 3 X 6 0 3 6 3 6 | 24 | 343
3| 0 0 X 0 0 0 0 6 | 06 | 86
4| 6 6 3 X 6 3 0 6 | 28 | 400
5| 0 3 3 0 X 6 0 6 | 16 | 229
6| 0 0 6 3 0 X 0 6 | 14 | 200
7| 3 3 6 6 6 6 X 6 | 34 | 486
8| 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 X | 00 | 0
WhammeWhamme wins.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy