just a reminder: players cannot win the game (and their opponent cant lose the game) unless they give a nontoken permanent to their opponent.
the entries:
1tomsloger : trojan control, version 1 stifle / mana drain / akroan horse
attacking your opponents ability to give you stuff is pretty good.
Scratch that. Regular banlist. The change would make several decks already submitted illegal and I don't want that. Only permanently banned cards are banned (and leyline of sanctity)
round is posted. ive done most of the grid, but theres a couple missing.
im gonna take a break but ill get to the remaining matchups sometime today if no one else does.
my explanations:
1/3/4v1/3/4 no one ever casts akroan horse. no one ever wins.
1/3/4v2 we do cast akroan horse. both of us the same turn. no one ever wins.
1v5 when im on the play, i stay ahead on mana. i have stifle for the sleeper agent trigger, and mana drain for the arcane denial backup. notgreat can never win.
if he tries to cast mayor turn 2, i counter it and go on to win with horse. so he doesnt.
1v6 on the draw, energy field beats me.
on the play, i can counter it. if you wait, i still counter it and stifle the wheel trigger. i go on to win
1v7/8 i can stifle the damage trigger and give it back. combo cannot work at instant speed. if they wait longer i can counter it.
if they dont go infinite and try to win fairly, horse helps.
1/3v9 i just counter lammasu and never play anything else. avarice totem cant switch anything if i dont have anything
1v10 if you cast golem turn 5, i counter it and play horse the following turn. so you dont.
i wait til turn 7 to cast horse. you counter, i counter back. if you dont, you have to wait several more turns to cast anything with counter backup, so you do it.
you can start casting stuff now, whatever order you want. but i stifle the trigger for the tokens and win
2v5 agent cant win on its own. parsley has the mana drain for t2 mayor. and the backup mana drain for t4 mayor with denial backup. so notgreat casts nothing
parsley waits til turn 8 to cast horse. he can counter the denial and the mayor. horse beats agent.
2v6 is similar to 1v6, but even easier.
2v9 can counter adept and lammasu
2v10 can always counter karona. with backup.
3v5 even on the draw, notgreat gets sleeper agent and mayor down.
3v6 full turn later than me for everything
3v10 not sure. coming back to it
4v5 sleeper agent is black. mayor is good. (and slaughter pact isnt as fast when you have to be able to pay the upkeep.)
4v6 sleeper agent is black. energy field wins.
4v7/8 slaughter pact gets salvagers every time.
4v9 slaughter pact gets lammasu for the draw
on the play, suicufnoc also has the voidslime for adept to stop the mana denial and win eventually.
4v10 slaughter pact takes out the golems.
5v6 energy field wins
5v10 mayor too fast
6v7/8 whoops. energy field says do not control. choker wins.
6v10 energy field wins
7/8v2/3/5 need to disrupt on turn 2. these 3 can do that on the play only
7/8v9/10 these 2 cant do anything.
9v10 yarn does the counter lammasu/do nothing else thing.
Precursor Golem was to beat random 1/1s after Stifle, while also letting me win on the upkeep after my t6. Obviously I wasn't expecting the decks to be this fast, but that's innovation for you. With counters and LR comes a lot of decisionmaking...
01v10: 3-3 A little lengthy. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You want to Stifle Golem.
If we fight over Horse (on the draw):
T7 Horse, Slime, Drain
Y7 Soldier#1, Golem, Stifle
T8 20-20
Y8 Soldier#2, Karona, swing for 5+(3+3)=11, no blocks or you lose a soldier, 20-9
T9 If you swing, Horse dies on blocks and you die on the backswing. So you can only swing with one token at most and get outraced.
It isn't optimal for you to fight over Horse.
If we fight over Karona:
On the play:
Y5 Golem, Stifle
T5 Horse
Y6 Soldier#1
T6 20-20
Y7 #2
T7 Block one, 19-20
Y8 #3
T8 17-20
Y9 #4 Karona, Drain, Ooze. Swing for 11, block 6, #3soldiers left. 17-15
T9 Alpha for 5+3x(1+3)=17. Block 5, no Horse. 5-15
It isn't optimal for me to fight over Karona.
3-3.
03v10: 3-3 See 01.
09v10: 4-1 Oh boy.
On the play I can counter the Adept. Turn 4, Lammasu comes, Golem follows.
M5: Swing in the air 15-20
If Totem trades with a Golem:
>Y6: Karona, swing for 5+4+2x(3+3)=21, block 6 lose Golem#1. 15-5
>M6: Swing for (5+3)+5=13, no good.
If Totem trades with Karona:
>Y6: No attacks 15-20
>M6: Swing for (5+3)+5=13, block 5, 7-20
>Y7: Karona back. Swing for 5+3x(3+3)=23, no good either.
On the draw countering Lammasu then. Adept can lock Karona out for a draw.
Y5: Golem, 18-20
M6: Bounce one.
Y6: Karona, swing for 5+2x(3+3)=17. Clearly damage output is too great so MMQ bounces Karona.
4-1.
05v09: 0-6 Maths makes this hard. Why do creatures have to have numbers on them.
Adept must be countered or Mayor gets bounced and Agent outraces itself.
MMQ on the play:
n2: Mayor, MMQ-notgreat 18-17
M3: Adept, Denial, swing 16-14
n3: Swing 14-14
M4: Mayor flips, swing, Lammasu 14-11
n4: Wolf#1
M5: 5 in the air. Whatever is Totem'd can be swapped back so no point. 12-6
n5: Swing 3+3+4=10. Agent trades with Mayor to block 3. 5-6 Lammasu is one off, and that's game. What if MMQ blocks at n3?
n3: 16-17
M4: Mayor flips, Lammasu 12-17
n4: Wolf#1
M5: 5 in the air, 10-12
n5: Swing for 10, Agent trades again. 3-12 Even worse than before.
0-6
06v09: 0-6 MMQ can keep bouncing Agent for a draw. Otherwise:
Daang how did my gatherer search return akroan horse and not sleeper agent. That may have led to some changes. Probably for the worse. Slaughter pact was still pretty good.
Daang how did my gatherer search return akroan horse and not sleeper agent. That may have led to some changes. Probably for the worse. Slaughter pact was still pretty good.
you did come up with the best akroan horse list. pretty impressive debut.
i'll look forward to seeing your entries in the regular rounds if we ever figure out what that next one is
Yep I will try to participate when I can, it was fun.
So I had considered running a sac outlet to deal with opposing donations, but couldn't come up with anything. Just remembered Jinxed Idol. Pretty sure it can be built around, but I have to go to work.
The other deck I considered would have only lost to the Salvagers decks - Lotus / Braids / Rainbow Vale. But I thought the Energy Field deck was cooler.
I built that list for the LR banlist, but after submitting it I couldn't figure out how to improve it without it getting worse. Interestingly enough, the only matchup I lose 0-6 used something from that banlist.
Also, I'm not totally sure about the 6-0 on 5v9. The current explanation has me casting Mayor and using Arcane Denial immediately afterwards before I get to 4 mana, which is impossible.
I'm guaranteed at least 2-2 though, so it looks like I win anyway.
vs 1 tomsloger: On the draw, ow, mana drain. On the play, ramp Choker to 17; if stifled, then I'll take 17 THEN give it away, if not tom takes 18; either way I swing FTW. 3-3
vs 2 Parsley: P/D 3-3
vs 3 Nemata GG: On the play, easy enough win (same as with tom). On the draw Trickbind can slow my combo, but I CAN just drop first turn Choker and see what happens... dropping Horse without counter back-up allows Salvagers. I think I still lose that but it's complicated due to lines. 3-3
vs 4 suicufnoc: On the play, turn 3 Lotus -> Salvagers + return can't be disrupted by Pact without dying. Otherwise a naked Choker ain't enough. 3-3
vs 5 notgreat: On the play, combo. On the draw, Choker loses to holding up Denial + Mayor. 3-3
vs 6 psly4mne: On the play, outrace Energy Field drop. 3-3
vs 7 Subtle_Relevance: Mirror match is 3-3.
vs 9 Madmanquail: Too slow. 6-0
vs 10 yarn: Too slow. 6-0
vs 1 tomsloger: On the draw, ow, mana drain. On the play, ramp Choker to 17; if stifled, then I'll take 17 THEN give it away, if not tom takes 18; either way I swing FTW. 3-3
vs 6 psly4mne: On the play, outrace Energy Field drop. 3-3
hmm. didnt think of doing anything with choker except go infinite or play fair.
i still think i 6-0 though, just with a different tactic
when youre on the play:
w1 land, lotus, salvagers
t1 island
w2 land. pay two mana to return lotus to hand. stifle that. swing 2. 20-18
t2 island, mana drain mana now up.
w3 swing 2. 20-16. if you try to cast choker, i counter it and get to play horse next turn instead of waiting til t6. you dont.
w4 swing 2. 20-14
w5 20-12
w6 20-10
t6 horse
w7 1 soldier. 20-8
w8 2 soldier. 20-6
w9 3 soldier. 20-4
w10 4 soldier. if you attack, quadruple block.
have no fear though, you do go 6-0 vs psly4mne.
energy field does nothing at all against jinxed choker.
just a reminder: players cannot win the game (and their opponent cant lose the game) unless they give a nontoken permanent to their opponent.
the entries:
1tomsloger : trojan control, version 1
stifle / mana drain / akroan horse
attacking your opponents ability to give you stuff is pretty good.
2Parsley : version 2
Mana Drain / Mana Drain / Akroan Horse
i'm pretty curious to see how this compares to mine.
3NemataGG : version 3
Trickbind / Dissipate / Akroan Horse
and really just each other. no idea which of these decks will be better.
4suicufnoc : version 4
Akroan Horse / Slaughter Pact / Voidslime
throw this one in too. slaughter pact has a chance to be pretty good.
5notgreat : politics
Sleeper Agent / Arcane Denial / Mayor of Avabruck
everything is cheap in this deck. could be good with so many counters around.
6psly4mne : field of dreams
Energy Field / Wheel of Sun and Moon / Sleeper Agent
seems really hard to beat if not disrupted
7Subtle_Relevance : jinxed combo
Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Jinxed Choker
fragile, but crazy powerful
8WhammeWhamme : jinxed combo
Black Lotus / Auriok Salvagers / Jinxed Choker
see above
9Madmanquail : Inception
Hunted Lammasu / Temporal Adept / Avarice Totem
some complicated lines of play. scary once it gets rolling
10yarn : god of the void
Precursor Golem / Karona, False God / Voidslime
not sure about the precursor golem, but the other two seem solid
Results :
# | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 |
1 | X 2 2 2 1 3 6 6 2 2 | 25 | 278
2 | 2 X 2 2 3 3 3 3 6 6 | 26 | 289
3 | 2 2 X 2 0 0 3 3 2 2 | 14 | 156
4 | 2 2 2 X 0 0 6 6 4 6 | 28 | 311
5 | 4 3 6 6 X 0 3 3 6 6 | 34 | 378
6 | 3 3 6 6 6 X 0 0 0 6 | 28 | 311
7 | 0 3 3 0 3 6 X 3 6 6 | 26 | 289
8 | 0 3 3 0 3 6 3 X 6 6 | 26 | 289
9 | 2 0 2 1 0 6 0 0 X 1 | 12 | 133
0 | 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 4 X | 08 | 089
some no longer useful information:
not part of the ABT, but using the ABT rules and banlist here
additional bans:
leyline of sanctity
correct
land rule banlist
land rule banlistedit: nevermind
im gonna take a break but ill get to the remaining matchups sometime today if no one else does.
my explanations:
1/3/4v2 we do cast akroan horse. both of us the same turn. no one ever wins.
1v5 when im on the play, i stay ahead on mana. i have stifle for the sleeper agent trigger, and mana drain for the arcane denial backup. notgreat can never win.
if he tries to cast mayor turn 2, i counter it and go on to win with horse. so he doesnt.
1v6 on the draw, energy field beats me.
on the play, i can counter it. if you wait, i still counter it and stifle the wheel trigger. i go on to win
1v7/8 i can stifle the damage trigger and give it back. combo cannot work at instant speed. if they wait longer i can counter it.
if they dont go infinite and try to win fairly, horse helps.
1/3v9 i just counter lammasu and never play anything else. avarice totem cant switch anything if i dont have anything
1v10 if you cast golem turn 5, i counter it and play horse the following turn. so you dont.
i wait til turn 7 to cast horse. you counter, i counter back. if you dont, you have to wait several more turns to cast anything with counter backup, so you do it.
you can start casting stuff now, whatever order you want. but i stifle the trigger for the tokens and win
2v5 agent cant win on its own. parsley has the mana drain for t2 mayor. and the backup mana drain for t4 mayor with denial backup. so notgreat casts nothing
parsley waits til turn 8 to cast horse. he can counter the denial and the mayor. horse beats agent.
2v6 is similar to 1v6, but even easier.
2v9 can counter adept and lammasu
2v10 can always counter karona. with backup.
3v5 even on the draw, notgreat gets sleeper agent and mayor down.
3v6 full turn later than me for everything
3v10 not sure. coming back to it
4v5 sleeper agent is black. mayor is good. (and slaughter pact isnt as fast when you have to be able to pay the upkeep.)
4v6 sleeper agent is black. energy field wins.
4v7/8 slaughter pact gets salvagers every time.
4v9 slaughter pact gets lammasu for the draw
on the play, suicufnoc also has the voidslime for adept to stop the mana denial and win eventually.
4v10 slaughter pact takes out the golems.
5v6 energy field wins
5v10 mayor too fast
6v7/8 whoops. energy field says do not control. choker wins.
6v10 energy field wins
7/8v2/3/5 need to disrupt on turn 2. these 3 can do that on the play only
7/8v9/10 these 2 cant do anything.
9v10 yarn does the counter lammasu/do nothing else thing.
If we fight over Horse (on the draw):
T7 Horse, Slime, Drain
Y7 Soldier#1, Golem, Stifle
T8 20-20
Y8 Soldier#2, Karona, swing for 5+(3+3)=11, no blocks or you lose a soldier, 20-9
T9 If you swing, Horse dies on blocks and you die on the backswing. So you can only swing with one token at most and get outraced.
It isn't optimal for you to fight over Horse.
If we fight over Karona:
On the play:
Y5 Golem, Stifle
T5 Horse
Y6 Soldier#1
T6 20-20
Y7 #2
T7 Block one, 19-20
Y8 #3
T8 17-20
Y9 #4 Karona, Drain, Ooze. Swing for 11, block 6, #3soldiers left. 17-15
T9 Alpha for 5+3x(1+3)=17. Block 5, no Horse. 5-15
It isn't optimal for me to fight over Karona.
3-3.
09v10: 4-1 Oh boy.
M5: Swing in the air 15-20
If Totem trades with a Golem:
>Y6: Karona, swing for 5+4+2x(3+3)=21, block 6 lose Golem#1. 15-5
>M6: Swing for (5+3)+5=13, no good.
If Totem trades with Karona:
>Y6: No attacks 15-20
>M6: Swing for (5+3)+5=13, block 5, 7-20
>Y7: Karona back. Swing for 5+3x(3+3)=23, no good either.
On the draw countering Lammasu then. Adept can lock Karona out for a draw.
Y5: Golem, 18-20
M6: Bounce one.
Y6: Karona, swing for 5+2x(3+3)=17. Clearly damage output is too great so MMQ bounces Karona.
4-1.
MMQ on the play:
n2: Mayor, MMQ-notgreat 18-17
M3: Adept, Denial, swing 16-14
n3: Swing 14-14
M4: Mayor flips, swing, Lammasu 14-11
n4: Wolf#1
M5: 5 in the air. Whatever is Totem'd can be swapped back so no point. 12-6
n5: Swing 3+3+4=10. Agent trades with Mayor to block 3. 5-6 Lammasu is one off, and that's game. What if MMQ blocks at n3?
n3: 16-17
M4: Mayor flips, Lammasu 12-17
n4: Wolf#1
M5: 5 in the air, 10-12
n5: Swing for 10, Agent trades again. 3-12 Even worse than before.
0-6
M5: Bounce token, 10-17
M6: Bounce Field, swing for 3+5=8, 8-9. Clearly MMQ outraces.
I disagree with 09v10 (1-4) and 01v10 (3-3), which relates to 03v10 (3-3).
My take on 05v09 (6-0) and 06v09 (0-6).
same amount of actual points though.
congrats to notgreat on the win!
you are on fire.
you did come up with the best akroan horse list. pretty impressive debut.
i'll look forward to seeing your entries in the regular rounds if we ever figure out what that next one is
So I had considered running a sac outlet to deal with opposing donations, but couldn't come up with anything. Just remembered Jinxed Idol. Pretty sure it can be built around, but I have to go to work.
Also, I'm not totally sure about the 6-0 on 5v9. The current explanation has me casting Mayor and using Arcane Denial immediately afterwards before I get to 4 mana, which is impossible.
I'm guaranteed at least 2-2 though, so it looks like I win anyway.
vs 2 Parsley: P/D 3-3
vs 3 Nemata GG: On the play, easy enough win (same as with tom). On the draw Trickbind can slow my combo, but I CAN just drop first turn Choker and see what happens... dropping Horse without counter back-up allows Salvagers. I think I still lose that but it's complicated due to lines. 3-3
vs 4 suicufnoc: On the play, turn 3 Lotus -> Salvagers + return can't be disrupted by Pact without dying. Otherwise a naked Choker ain't enough. 3-3
vs 5 notgreat: On the play, combo. On the draw, Choker loses to holding up Denial + Mayor. 3-3
vs 6 psly4mne: On the play, outrace Energy Field drop. 3-3
vs 7 Subtle_Relevance: Mirror match is 3-3.
vs 9 Madmanquail: Too slow. 6-0
vs 10 yarn: Too slow. 6-0
hmm. didnt think of doing anything with choker except go infinite or play fair.
i still think i 6-0 though, just with a different tactic
when youre on the play:
t1 island
w2 land. pay two mana to return lotus to hand. stifle that. swing 2. 20-18
t2 island, mana drain mana now up.
w3 swing 2. 20-16. if you try to cast choker, i counter it and get to play horse next turn instead of waiting til t6. you dont.
w4 swing 2. 20-14
w5 20-12
w6 20-10
t6 horse
w7 1 soldier. 20-8
w8 2 soldier. 20-6
w9 3 soldier. 20-4
w10 4 soldier. if you attack, quadruple block.
have no fear though, you do go 6-0 vs psly4mne.
energy field does nothing at all against jinxed choker.