This thread proposed by Draco9 is for proposing and (more importantly) refining and debugging proposals for ABT formats.
(ABT is an X-Card-Blind tournament. For more details, see any ABT thread, such as ABT 16.1.)
Note that there no obligation on any mod to take formats from this thread. This is purely a resource, aimed at making ABT threads more resistant to unexpected problems during rounds.
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Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
You might want to add Myr Propagator to the banned list.
I'll suggest some formats later, but in the mean time my other suggestion is to consider whether there are any pairings of existing formats that might be interesting. A nearly-comprehensive list of XCB formats played on MTGS is located here and here (it's just missing the last couple months of ABT).
I like formats where we have to play big clunky stuff. So, I propose what seems like the most straightforward way to get there: ban cards with CMC < X!
This is a big family of formats, which I'll collectively call Big Spender X in lieu of a better name (I'm open to suggestions). "2CB LR Big Spender 5", for instance, would be a land-rule format in which you have two cards, both of which must have CMC 5 or greater.
I think this format can stand on its own under LR conditions. There are plenty of ways "around" the restriction, like morph, but my instinct is that the set of cards with morph and similar abilities is small enough that there will still be plenty of incentive to hard cast plenty of things on turn X, as long as X is not so large that there are morph cards that win faster on their own.
Without an LR, it is probably necessary to modify the rule to "nonland cards with CMC less than X...", but even then there are problems, in that decks are pretty much forced into relying on a very small set of storage lands and alt-cost spells, which will probably make the meta extremely hate-focused. Possible solutions include "nonland cards with CMC less than X that don't have CMC 0..." to allow Lotus and friends, which is pretty ugly; "Everyone has an emblem with 0: add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn." or something, which is also pretty silly; and just not playing non-LR Big Spender, which might be for the best. I'd like to hear suggestions, though.
One tweak that might make sense in LR is having players start with X lands of their choice in play. This avoids the morph/alt-cost issue, and also makes the turn 2 rule relevant again. This might probably desirable, for all the same reasons that the turn 2 rule exists in the first place. That said, there are a lot more defensive options available at 3+ CMC than there are at 0 or 1, so allowing turn X discard/wins might be okay. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.
Another, very different, but possibly awesome idea that a friend came up with when I mentioned this is a format in which you choose the number of cards in your deck.. but they all have to have CMC higher than the number you choose (or maybe that number minus one, so that 2-card decks can have 1CMC cards). This would pretty definitely only work in an LR format.
Another, very different, but possibly awesome idea that a friend came up with when I mentioned this is a format in which you choose the number of cards in your deck.. but they all have to have CMC higher than the number you choose (or maybe that number minus one, so that 2-card decks can have 1CMC cards). This would pretty definitely only work in an LR format.
You might be interested in this format that we played while you were gone. It resembles your friend's idea, and my own feeling is that it's one of the best formats we've played.
I like formats where we have to play big clunky stuff. So, I propose what seems like the most straightforward way to get there: ban cards with CMC < X!
The only problem I see with 'CMC X or greater' weeks are suspend cards like Mindstab, as well as Chancellor of the Forge decks. seems like a good starting point, both to ban Leylines and allow :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: cards.
Possible solutions include "nonland cards with CMC less than X that don't have CMC 0..."
Another alternative is to assign converted mana costs. This week, only cards with converted mana cost :0mana:, :2mana:, or are allowed.
One tweak that might make sense in LR is having players start with X lands of their choice in play.
This can be dangerous in that both players are ready on the very first turn, no matter who goes first. Might also be interesting. Unsure about this one.
You might want to add Myr Propagator to the banned list.
I'll suggest some formats later, but in the mean time my other suggestion is to consider whether there are any pairings of existing formats that might be interesting. A nearly-comprehensive list of XCB formats played on MTGS is located here and here (it's just missing the last couple months of ABT).
Oh, awesome, yeah, that's basically exactly it! I'd be a fan of running it again, seems like it's been easily long enough. Why was it capped at 4?
Quote from "Draco9" »
The only problem I see with 'CMC X or greater' weeks are suspend cards like Mindstab, as well as Chancellor of the Forge decks. seems like a good starting point, both to ban Leylines and allow WUBRG cards.
One response might just be to ban Mindstab and maybe a few others. Another way to incentivize big things while avoiding this issue would be "Players can't cast spells or activate abilities before turn X". This is a pretty different idea, but maybe also worth exploring.
instead of land rule, gold tokens.
either add 1 per turn or x per turn, where x is the number of turns youve started.
obviously march of the machines and its ilk would be things to be careful with.
i like that it can be used to curve out or as a pseudo upwelling, producing 3 mana on turn 2 or 6 on turn 3...
bestow week:
creature cards that dont have bestow gain bestow. the bestow cost is their mana cost plus 2. its grants enchanted creature all activated abilities of the bestowed creature and the appropriate p/t boost.
and also, i would like to do backbuild again soon, but need something fresh. anyone have an idea.
Oh, awesome, yeah, that's basically exactly it! I'd be a fan of running it again, seems like it's been easily long enough. Why was it capped at 4?
I had suggested that scoring five-card decks in a land rule format might be overly complicated, but I don't know whether that actually would have been true.
and also, i would like to do backbuild again soon, but need something fresh. anyone have an idea.
What about "Tier 1 Backbuild", where submissions have to 6-0 three out of five of a collection of well-chosen 5CB decks that have won rounds in the past?
What about "Tier 1 Backbuild", where submissions have to 6-0 three out of five of a collection of well-chosen 5CB decks that have won rounds in the past?
ooh. thats good actually. the worst good deck is definitely different than the worst deck.
Masters of Wizardry
Entrants may only submit sorcery cards.
10
Cards: 3
10
Lands: Land rule round.
10
+Bans: ?
I love the idea of it. Although the mind initially goes to certain specific cards, with us having 3 cards, I believe there will be enough room to really design some interesting things. I'm sure a chunk of the player pool would gravitate to similar ideas, but some will form some very outside of the box ideas. It feels like a whole different kind of thing. Definitely want to do this sometime.
Power Plays
Players begin the game with an emblem that reads "The first spell you cast each turn costs X less to cast, where X is half of that spell's converted mana cost, rounded down."
10
Cards: 3
10
Lands: Land rule round.
10
+Bans: ?
I like power formats where we get to drop fat. This should make it strong, but not a broken, degenerate, powerfest. This one I'd also want to do. Perhaps if I have time to host a tourney again anytime soon.
2CB Land Hand
Each player begins the game with a Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest card in their hand.
Shakes up the land rule concept. It could be a refreshing change. It also sets up an upper limit, gives options with a full starting hand, etc. Might be fun.
Digger
Entrants may submit creature cards only.
Whenever a creature card would be put into a player's graveyard from anywhere, instead reveal that card and put it on the bottom of his or her library.
10
Cards: 2-3
10
Lands: Land Rule
10
+Bans: ?
Might not be inventive enough, but it could be an interesting way to do a creatures-only round.
Dropping the Bass
At the beginning of each players upkeep, that player may put a Fish permanent card from his or her hand on to the battlefield.
Maybe I'm the only one, but I've thought it would be neat to have a round where silver-bordered cards (Unglued, Unhinged, and Holiday promo) are legal, with an extensive ban list to prevent things that don't work. Something along the lines of 2CB LR, at least one card must be silver-bordered. Assume all players can accomplish all required physical feats. Games are played in isolation: no game is before or after another game, or visible from another game. Perhaps to make it more interesting, allow a choice between 2CB with one silver-bordered card and 3CB with all three cards silver-bordered.
I was very disappointed that this idea--stepping-stone blind--didn't work out. There was an extremely narrow range of playable cards, including three nearly identical decks. Still, I really liked the concept and want to figure out if there's a good way to make it more diverse.
The trouble with a lot of these suggestions so far is that they're really just making various adjustments to how much mana players get. Such formats have their place, but for the most part mods are fine at making them up.
The best formats are the ones which require thought about which cards are even relevant. Such formats are hard to come up with partly because they often break, so one of the key roles of this thread is to fix the initial proposals.
Of the suggestions so far I like tomsloger's bestow format best, but it seems too conservative. Mana is hard to come by in XCB and if you word the format this way then you spoil half the fun. Why not just "bestow cost is equal to mana cost"? And you'd probably need to rule that things became Enchantment - Auras when using the bestow. And ban Annul. Can anyone spot any other fixes needed?
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Going to place all the ideas so far into one post. Going to edit the second post of this thread to reflect that. I'll try to maintain it as discussions pop up. I'm going to leave out the specific card size unless its absolutely necessary.
Big Spender (LR)
Each spell that would cost less than five mana to cast costs five mana to cast. Chancellor of the Forge and Gaddock Teeg are banned.
Modified Personman's idea. This way, you can still play cheap costing cards. They just get a little more expensive.
Cascade (LR)
Each player starts with one card in his or her hand and the rest on top of his or her library in any order.
Players skip their draw step.
Nonland cards have cascade.
A work in progress.
Deep Discount
Colored spells cost less to cast. Painter's Servant is banned.
I picked instead of to keep spells at a reasonable level.
Swap
3 cards
Basic Land Rule
At the beginning of each game, before Leylines/Chancellors/Gemstone Caverns triggers, the player going second must exchange one of the cards in his or her hand with one of the cards in the opponent's hand. (The player going second chooses both cards)
Castigate
4 cards
Basic Land Rule
At the beginning of each game, before Leylines/Chancellors/Gemstone Caverns triggers, the player going first exiles a card from the opponents' hand. Then, the player going second exiles a card from the opponents' hand.
Slow Rolling
5 cards
Basic Land Rule
No player may submit a deck that can win the game or force a card in an opponent's hand to change zones before the beginning of the opponent's 20th turn.
Cold War
5 cards
Basic Land Rule
Players have hexproof.
Creatures can't attack.
Turn 6
4 cards
Basic Land Rule
Each player starts the game with a basic land of each type on the battlefield.
Prebuilt Metagame
4 cards + 1 special card
No Land Rule
Choose your special card when you submit your deck. Your options are: (insert cards here)
Banned: Black Lotus
Pauper
4 cards
Basic Land Rule
Banned List: All cards that aren't common
I like Swap but it could be insanely confusing to calculate.
I really loved the Dream Halls format back in the day, so here's a riff on it:
I'm Bad At Format Names
5 Cards
No land rule
Players have an emblem with "Exile a card from your hand: Add mana equal to that card's mana cost (including color) to your mana pool."
Some more:
Gentlemen's Boxing Rules
3 cards
Basic Land Rule
Players may only submit creatures without activated abilities.
No Holds Barred
4 Cards*
Basic Land Rule
Players submit two creature cards and two instant or sorcery cards. The instants and sorceries begin the game exiled. When a creature enters the battlefield, its controller chooses an exiled instant or sorcery card e owns. The creature gains "0: Copy the chosen card. You may cast the copy. (You must pay its mana cost as normal.)"
Hive Body
5 Cards
No land rule
Whenever a nontoken permanent enters the battlefield, its controllers opponents each put a token that's a copy of it onto the battlefield.
As a general note: if you can't think of a name for your format, name it after a city or an animal or something so make the work-in-progress names more unique.
Comments on some recent proposals...
Swap: The big problem here is that decks get broken by having a card ripped out from them. How about instead of swapping you replace one of your cards with a copy of one of the opponent's cards? This is a much lower impact effect, but means you can build interesting decks rather than just running three redundant threats.
Slow Rolling: We've played formats like this before. I think it would be better if you picked 25+ as the number because otherwise things which tick at one per turn (whether mana or damage) are a clear dominant strategy.
No Holds Barred: This sounds fun, but you probably want to ban mana generating spells.
Prebuilt Metagame: Something like this has been done before, but possibly picking any two cards from a list might be an interesting variant?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
No Holds Barred: Why not just give the instant/sorcery cards Cipher and make them free to cast?
Trying to figure out the best way to organize all these new format ideas. Should I just pile up all the ideas, finished or not, into one post? Do some sort of vote? I don't want to leave anyone hanging.
I think people are also reluctant to share what should be banned for a particular format, because that might be their trump card if the week does come up.
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():
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(ABT is an X-Card-Blind tournament. For more details, see any ABT thread, such as ABT 16.1.)
Note that there no obligation on any mod to take formats from this thread. This is purely a resource, aimed at making ABT threads more resistant to unexpected problems during rounds.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Note: Anyone can edit this list.
You might want to add Myr Propagator to the banned list.
I'll suggest some formats later, but in the mean time my other suggestion is to consider whether there are any pairings of existing formats that might be interesting. A nearly-comprehensive list of XCB formats played on MTGS is located here and here (it's just missing the last couple months of ABT).
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
There is now a google doc that anyone can edit with all the proposed formats in it. It is not meant to replace suggesting and discussing them in this thread, but as a convenient repository for all proposals.
I like formats where we have to play big clunky stuff. So, I propose what seems like the most straightforward way to get there: ban cards with CMC < X!
This is a big family of formats, which I'll collectively call Big Spender X in lieu of a better name (I'm open to suggestions). "2CB LR Big Spender 5", for instance, would be a land-rule format in which you have two cards, both of which must have CMC 5 or greater.
I think this format can stand on its own under LR conditions. There are plenty of ways "around" the restriction, like morph, but my instinct is that the set of cards with morph and similar abilities is small enough that there will still be plenty of incentive to hard cast plenty of things on turn X, as long as X is not so large that there are morph cards that win faster on their own.
Without an LR, it is probably necessary to modify the rule to "nonland cards with CMC less than X...", but even then there are problems, in that decks are pretty much forced into relying on a very small set of storage lands and alt-cost spells, which will probably make the meta extremely hate-focused. Possible solutions include "nonland cards with CMC less than X that don't have CMC 0..." to allow Lotus and friends, which is pretty ugly; "Everyone has an emblem with 0: add X mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn." or something, which is also pretty silly; and just not playing non-LR Big Spender, which might be for the best. I'd like to hear suggestions, though.
One tweak that might make sense in LR is having players start with X lands of their choice in play. This avoids the morph/alt-cost issue, and also makes the turn 2 rule relevant again. This might probably desirable, for all the same reasons that the turn 2 rule exists in the first place. That said, there are a lot more defensive options available at 3+ CMC than there are at 0 or 1, so allowing turn X discard/wins might be okay. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.
Another, very different, but possibly awesome idea that a friend came up with when I mentioned this is a format in which you choose the number of cards in your deck.. but they all have to have CMC higher than the number you choose (or maybe that number minus one, so that 2-card decks can have 1CMC cards). This would pretty definitely only work in an LR format.
You might be interested in this format that we played while you were gone. It resembles your friend's idea, and my own feeling is that it's one of the best formats we've played.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
The only problem I see with 'CMC X or greater' weeks are suspend cards like Mindstab, as well as Chancellor of the Forge decks. seems like a good starting point, both to ban Leylines and allow :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: cards.
Another alternative is to assign converted mana costs. This week, only cards with converted mana cost :0mana:, :2mana:, or are allowed.
This can be dangerous in that both players are ready on the very first turn, no matter who goes first. Might also be interesting. Unsure about this one.
Oh, awesome, yeah, that's basically exactly it! I'd be a fan of running it again, seems like it's been easily long enough. Why was it capped at 4?
One response might just be to ban Mindstab and maybe a few others. Another way to incentivize big things while avoiding this issue would be "Players can't cast spells or activate abilities before turn X". This is a pretty different idea, but maybe also worth exploring.
instead of land rule, gold tokens.
either add 1 per turn or x per turn, where x is the number of turns youve started.
obviously march of the machines and its ilk would be things to be careful with.
i like that it can be used to curve out or as a pseudo upwelling, producing 3 mana on turn 2 or 6 on turn 3...
bestow week:
creature cards that dont have bestow gain bestow. the bestow cost is their mana cost plus 2. its grants enchanted creature all activated abilities of the bestowed creature and the appropriate p/t boost.
and also, i would like to do backbuild again soon, but need something fresh. anyone have an idea.
I had suggested that scoring five-card decks in a land rule format might be overly complicated, but I don't know whether that actually would have been true.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
What about "Tier 1 Backbuild", where submissions have to 6-0 three out of five of a collection of well-chosen 5CB decks that have won rounds in the past?
ooh. thats good actually. the worst good deck is definitely different than the worst deck.
i think a format shouldnt go in the repository until used, but perhaps a link to each completed format in the first post
Entrants may only submit sorcery cards.
I love the idea of it. Although the mind initially goes to certain specific cards, with us having 3 cards, I believe there will be enough room to really design some interesting things. I'm sure a chunk of the player pool would gravitate to similar ideas, but some will form some very outside of the box ideas. It feels like a whole different kind of thing. Definitely want to do this sometime.
Power Plays
Players begin the game with an emblem that reads "The first spell you cast each turn costs X less to cast, where X is half of that spell's converted mana cost, rounded down."
I like power formats where we get to drop fat. This should make it strong, but not a broken, degenerate, powerfest. This one I'd also want to do. Perhaps if I have time to host a tourney again anytime soon.
2CB Land Hand
Each player begins the game with a Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest card in their hand.
Shakes up the land rule concept. It could be a refreshing change. It also sets up an upper limit, gives options with a full starting hand, etc. Might be fun.
Digger
Entrants may submit creature cards only.
Whenever a creature card would be put into a player's graveyard from anywhere, instead reveal that card and put it on the bottom of his or her library.
Might not be inventive enough, but it could be an interesting way to do a creatures-only round.
Dropping the Bass
At the beginning of each players upkeep, that player may put a Fish permanent card from his or her hand on to the battlefield.
Who doesn't like Dropping the Bass?
No longer staff here.
Ban list, at a glance:
The best formats are the ones which require thought about which cards are even relevant. Such formats are hard to come up with partly because they often break, so one of the key roles of this thread is to fix the initial proposals.
Of the suggestions so far I like tomsloger's bestow format best, but it seems too conservative. Mana is hard to come by in XCB and if you word the format this way then you spoil half the fun. Why not just "bestow cost is equal to mana cost"? And you'd probably need to rule that things became Enchantment - Auras when using the bestow. And ban Annul. Can anyone spot any other fixes needed?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Modified Personman's idea. This way, you can still play cheap costing cards. They just get a little more expensive.
A work in progress.
I picked instead of to keep spells at a reasonable level.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
I really loved the Dream Halls format back in the day, so here's a riff on it:
Some more:
I'm a bit concerned that the Dream Halls and No Holds Barred are just going to be
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/LXJ6Z3Z
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Anyways, I was going to say that those formats seem like they might be just more "big combo vs countermagic" metagames.
I think Hive Body has good potential though.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Comments on some recent proposals...
Swap: The big problem here is that decks get broken by having a card ripped out from them. How about instead of swapping you replace one of your cards with a copy of one of the opponent's cards? This is a much lower impact effect, but means you can build interesting decks rather than just running three redundant threats.
Slow Rolling: We've played formats like this before. I think it would be better if you picked 25+ as the number because otherwise things which tick at one per turn (whether mana or damage) are a clear dominant strategy.
No Holds Barred: This sounds fun, but you probably want to ban mana generating spells.
Prebuilt Metagame: Something like this has been done before, but possibly picking any two cards from a list might be an interesting variant?
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Trying to figure out the best way to organize all these new format ideas. Should I just pile up all the ideas, finished or not, into one post? Do some sort of vote? I don't want to leave anyone hanging.
I think people are also reluctant to share what should be banned for a particular format, because that might be their trump card if the week does come up.