If we count "one of the good Eldrazi" (Emrakul + Ulamog) as a single entry, they're the most common pick short of Black Lotus...
The combination of size, recursion, and annihilator make them pretty powerful. I remember someone brought up banning them, and I certainly see the point. There's something to be said for shaking things up.
Any cards you guys are sick of seeing?
I personally hate meek/forge
It was me that brought up banning the Eldrazi (twice) before.
I should make clear that it's not on power level grounds as such. It's because they are at the same time:
* A win condition.
* A way to get rid of every type of permanent.
* Any-card recursion (much stronger than self-only recursion).
* Hard to answer.
The combination of all these things at once reduces the diversity of many (most?) XCB formats. The argument that "if we ban them, people will just run another big colourless threat" is valid, but also 100% fine since there are no other cards in that category which are similarly problematic in terms of doing everything in a single card (assuming me include Kozilek in the ban, which I think we should).
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Why not just extend rule 2.3a to occur before the opponent's third turn? Rule 2.3a for reference:
2.3a. An entrant may not submit a deck that could enable the player of that deck to win the game or force any cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
That'll nerf Meek/Forge decks and Shelldock/Eldrazi decks. Then just ban either Karakas or Leyline of Singularity.
With the new Legendary rules, Leyline of Singularity isn't as strong as it used to be, so it won't be used much in decks if Karakas is banned. Karakas however can still be useful and would be more interesting to keep.
Why not just extend rule 2.3a to occur before the opponent's third turn? Rule 2.3a for reference:
2.3a. An entrant may not submit a deck that could enable the player of that deck to win the game or force any cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn.
That'll nerf Meek/Forge decks and Shelldock/Eldrazi decks. Then just ban either Karakas or Leyline of Singularity.
With the new Legendary rules, Leyline of Singularity isn't as strong as it used to be, so it won't be used much in decks if Karakas is banned. Karakas however can still be useful and would be more interesting to keep.
I think it really depends on the format. In a land-rule round, I could definitely see slowing down the kill/discard a turn. But in Lotus-Ridden rounds, it makes a lot of things that aren't broken illegal.
The turn that makes things legal/illegal could change for the format, just like hand size, etc?
I think it really depends on the format. In a land-rule round, I could definitely see slowing down the kill/discard a turn. But in Lotus-Ridden rounds, it makes a lot of things that aren't broken illegal.
The turn that makes things legal/illegal could change for the format, just like hand size, etc?
Once upon a time, Hunting Pack + Black Lotus was a deck in 5CB, which was later made invalid due to rule 2.3a (along with a handful of other things).
Shifting the metagame every once in awhile isn't such a bad thing if enough people are tired of the current metagame. Then again, the only way to make perfectly sure is to test it out a few times in actual games and get feedback from it.
The formats for each week of ABT vary so widely that having a set banlist doesn't really make sense. The only cards that I would always ban are Meddling Mage and Laboratory Maniac.
Instead, we should compile a list of "dangerous" cards that often lead to stale/broken formats. Then, whomever is modding that week can make the appropriate bans.
For example:
Mana Taxing/Denial
Chancellor of the Annex
Mana Vortex
Trinisphere
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Accelerants
Exploration
Fastbond
Sol Ring
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Grim Monolith
Mana Crypt
Flash
Show and Tell
Eureka
Sneak Attack
Mishra's Workshop
Recursive Threats
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Serene Remembrance
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
White Sun's Zenith
Red Sun's Zenith
Green Sun's Zenith
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold
Dread
Two-card combos
Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek
Voltaic Key/Time Vault
Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage
Karakas/Leyline of Singularity
Card Denial
Nevermore
Chalice of the Void
Arcane Deinal
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Augur of Skulls
Anvil of Bogardan
Consult the Necrosages
Esper Charm
Wistful Thinking
Mind Rot
Stupor
Bog Down
Blightning
Compulsive Research
Deception
Unburden
Waking Nightmare
Nullstone Gargoyle
Fastbond is basically always either broken, or worthless. Same for Channel. Close to same for Chancellor of the Annex.
Relying on the round creator to remember exactly what's broken every week is a heavy burden. They're human, they make mistakes.
This is actually the exact reason why I started expanding the list and hitting the "sometimes broken" cards. I'd quite often have to come back and ban a few things I missed the next day, which is never a good thing (but was the lesser evil). I especially hated the "I thought that was banned 'cause it almost always is.." that happened several times. Permanently banning Chancellor of the Annex solved a lot of these problems, and was worth the loss.
That said, everything should be up for changing from round to round. The whole idea was that all formats and all rule-types were up for grabs, to keep things fresh and fun each week.
I'd love to see some out-of-the-box formats. Things that make you look at the round as if it was almost a different game.
This is actually the exact reason why I started expanding the list and hitting the "sometimes broken" cards. I'd quite often have to come back and ban a few things I missed the next day, which is never a good thing (but was the lesser evil). I especially hated the "I thought that was banned 'cause it almost always is.." that happened several times. Permanently banning Chancellor of the Annex solved a lot of these problems, and was worth the loss.
That said, everything should be up for changing from round to round. The whole idea was that all formats and all rule-types were up for grabs, to keep things fresh and fun each week.
I'd love to see some out-of-the-box formats. Things that make you look at the round as if it was almost a different game.
Sure, I have no problem with a round where Chancellor is explicitly unbanned. I'd want this to be something the round creator is oblifed to spell out, however, rather than them simply leaving out a boilerplate "this card is banned".
I agree that asking the format creator to pick and choose from a huge list every time is too big a burden, on both em and the players, who have to scour the list to see what's not on it this time.
I'm ambivalent about the Eldrazi, but I would be okay with taking a break from them.
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the top ten most used cards:
black lotus 113
city of traitors 38
chancellor of the forge 31
mishra's workshop 30
ulamog, the infinite gyre 29
karakas 27
inkmoth nexus 26
pithing needle 26
emrakul, the aeons torn 23
foil 20
The combination of size, recursion, and annihilator make them pretty powerful. I remember someone brought up banning them, and I certainly see the point. There's something to be said for shaking things up.
Any cards you guys are sick of seeing?
I personally hate meek/forge
I should make clear that it's not on power level grounds as such. It's because they are at the same time:
* A win condition.
* A way to get rid of every type of permanent.
* Any-card recursion (much stronger than self-only recursion).
* Hard to answer.
The combination of all these things at once reduces the diversity of many (most?) XCB formats. The argument that "if we ban them, people will just run another big colourless threat" is valid, but also 100% fine since there are no other cards in that category which are similarly problematic in terms of doing everything in a single card (assuming me include Kozilek in the ban, which I think we should).
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
With the new Legendary rules, Leyline of Singularity isn't as strong as it used to be, so it won't be used much in decks if Karakas is banned. Karakas however can still be useful and would be more interesting to keep.
I think it really depends on the format. In a land-rule round, I could definitely see slowing down the kill/discard a turn. But in Lotus-Ridden rounds, it makes a lot of things that aren't broken illegal.
The turn that makes things legal/illegal could change for the format, just like hand size, etc?
No longer staff here.
Once upon a time, Hunting Pack + Black Lotus was a deck in 5CB, which was later made invalid due to rule 2.3a (along with a handful of other things).
Shifting the metagame every once in awhile isn't such a bad thing if enough people are tired of the current metagame. Then again, the only way to make perfectly sure is to test it out a few times in actual games and get feedback from it.
Instead, we should compile a list of "dangerous" cards that often lead to stale/broken formats. Then, whomever is modding that week can make the appropriate bans.
For example:
Mana Taxing/Denial
Chancellor of the Annex
Mana Vortex
Trinisphere
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Accelerants
Exploration
Fastbond
Sol Ring
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Grim Monolith
Mana Crypt
Flash
Show and Tell
Eureka
Sneak Attack
Mishra's Workshop
Recursive Threats
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Serene Remembrance
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
White Sun's Zenith
Red Sun's Zenith
Green Sun's Zenith
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold
Dread
Two-card combos
Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek
Voltaic Key/Time Vault
Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage
Karakas/Leyline of Singularity
Card Denial
Nevermore
Chalice of the Void
Arcane Deinal
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Mana Leak
Augur of Skulls
Anvil of Bogardan
Consult the Necrosages
Esper Charm
Wistful Thinking
Mind Rot
Stupor
Bog Down
Blightning
Compulsive Research
Deception
Unburden
Waking Nightmare
Nullstone Gargoyle
etc.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Relying on the round creator to remember exactly what's broken every week is a heavy burden. They're human, they make mistakes.
This is actually the exact reason why I started expanding the list and hitting the "sometimes broken" cards. I'd quite often have to come back and ban a few things I missed the next day, which is never a good thing (but was the lesser evil). I especially hated the "I thought that was banned 'cause it almost always is.." that happened several times. Permanently banning Chancellor of the Annex solved a lot of these problems, and was worth the loss.
That said, everything should be up for changing from round to round. The whole idea was that all formats and all rule-types were up for grabs, to keep things fresh and fun each week.
I'd love to see some out-of-the-box formats. Things that make you look at the round as if it was almost a different game.
No longer staff here.
Sure, I have no problem with a round where Chancellor is explicitly unbanned. I'd want this to be something the round creator is oblifed to spell out, however, rather than them simply leaving out a boilerplate "this card is banned".
I'm ambivalent about the Eldrazi, but I would be okay with taking a break from them.