This thread contains the results for week 1 of All Blind Tournament #13 and is the start of week 2 of ABT#13.
Week 1 of ABT#13
This round was 3CB LR Safe.
Rules: Nonland sources can't produce mana.
Each spell that would cost less than its converted mana cost to cast costs its converted mana cost to cast.
If an effect would put a card that isn't the source of that effect onto the battlefield from a zone other than exile, exile that card instead.
Players can't play additional lands.
Spells and abilities can't untap lands.
Spells and abilities controlled by opponents of the owner of a basic land card can't prevent that card from being played, prevent it from entering the battlefield, or cause it to enter the battlefield tapped.
Spells and abilities controlled by opponents of the controller of a noncreature basic land that has no abilities except mana abilities can't tap that land, prevent that land from untapping, phase that land out, turn that land face down, cause another player to gain control of that land, cause that land to lose its land types, cause that land to produce a different type or amount of mana instead of the type or amount of mana it would produce otherwise, cause that land to become a creature, or cause that land to change zones.
If a spell or ability controlled by an opponent of the controller of a noncreature basic land that has no abilities except mana abilities would cause another permanent controlled by the controller of that land to be moved to another zone, and if that land could be moved to that zone if these rules were not in effect, then that land's controller may choose to move that land to that zone instead.
TLDR - You cannot accelerate your mana, cheat permanents into play, or disrupt your opponent's mana.
01 Reyemile :: "" Arcane Denial / Mistveil Plains / Raise the Alarm Even if the round was a bit lackluster for having so many counterspells, I count the fact that it introduced alternatives like Mistveil Plains + Raise the Alarm as a partial success. Nice deck.
02 knobbodi :: "" Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Swan Song I'm not sure whether Swan Song is general is better or wose for this deck than Arcane Denial, but I'm glad you brought it into the discussion. It was a good call for a week so heavy with counters.
03 WhammWhamme :: "" Sanctum Gargoyle / Time Vault / Voltaic Key I like how Gargoyle does so much for this deck - recursion, a win condition, and it's evasive. Unfortunately, it can be countered. It also didn't help your score that someone finally pointed out that the infinite turns for a draw method doesn't work.
04 MyNameIsFourteen :: "Unsafe At Any Speed" Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre As you acknowledged, this deck has some low-impact cards. That said, what could ever be wrong with a deck where every card contributes to recursion?
05 tomsloger :: "" Izzet Charm / Shrieking Affliction / Wistful Thinking The damage from Charm is a nice option, but pure tempo cards have rarely been good in land rule rounds, even if they do set you up for something as powerful as Wistful Thinking.
06 Feyd_Ruin :: "The Obzedeck" Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate Between Remembrance and Vindicate, you have Bridge covered, so I'm not sure how useful the life drain on Obzedat is. Something that would have shored up your weakness to Path might have been nice. Maybe Voidstone Gargoyle?
07 bateleur :: "Cheatyface" Arcane Denial / Inkwell Leviathan / Volrath's Shapeshifter Volrath's Shapeshifter has been waiting to see play in XCB for so long. Props for remembering that it could get around the acceleration restrictions.
08 cruelshy :: "" Constant Mists / Helix Pinnacle / Mana Drain Pretty classic combo, even if Mana Drain doesn't get its bonus this round. Arcane Denial would have fit your color requirements better.
09 plopfill :: "" Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance Remembrance is a nice combo with Miracle, and this deck can get big fast. A more versatile answer than Path might have been nice, especially as Remembrance lets you get multiple uses of any card.
10 DragonDart :: "" Beacon of Destruction / Pithing Needle / Syncopate I haven't actually looked at any of your matches, so I'm not sure where Dissipate would have been better, but that seems like a hard thing to predict. Syncopate certainly strikes me as the better card with Beacon at instant speed.
There were 11 players with 55 matches and 110 total games.
16 hands ended in a draw. 8 matches had at least one draw.
That's 15% of all games, averaging 1.5 games per player.
The following player(s) had the most drawn games, with 9 total draws: WhammWhamme
14 matches were a 3-3 split.
That's 25% of all matches, averaging 1.3 matches per player.
The following player(s) had the most split matches, with 3 total splits: MyNameIsFourteen : tomsloger : bateleur
40 matches were a 6-0 sweep.
That's 73% of all matches, averaging 3.6 matches per player.
The following player(s) had the most 6-0 match sweeps, at 6 total sweeps: knobbodi
There were 30 unique cards submitted, out of 33 total.
2 card(s) were repeated:
Next Round will be '5CB Modern Monstrosity'.
Entries are due Tuesday morning at 4:00 am GMT.
5CB Modern Monstrosity
Description:
The development of this week was straightforward. I looked to Theros for mechanics and noted that monstrosity plays well with some other mechanics from the last few blocks.
Deck size:
20
5 cards.
Land Rule:
20
None.
Special Rules:
Only cards contained in sets legal in Modern may be submitted.
Each creature has "{N}: Monstrosity N", where N is that creature's converted mana cost.
Each player starts the game with an emblem that has "At the beginning of your upkeep, populate, then proliferate."
Blind Magic is an online Magic format played here on the forums. Players play with an extremely limited deck size, such as 3 cards. Players begin with their entire deck (ie: those three cards) in hand and have no library (players don't lose when they fail to draw a card because of this). Due to the extremely limited number of play options given with their small deck size, games are calculated, rather then played, with an absolute determined winner (or a tie). Each player plays a match of two games against each other player who submitted - once going first, and once going second. Wins, losses, and ties for each of those two games are calculated by the moderator and players. The actual fun of the game comes from trying to decide which cards you will be playing.
What is the All Blind Tournament?
The All Blind Tournament is a four-week XCB tournament, which spans all card blind formats and embraces a progressive anti-metagame. For each week of the four-week tournament, a new XCB format is announced for players to enter. Players compete for points (similiar to the PotM points for previous XCB games) each round. At the end of the four-week tournament, the player who has accumulated the most points over the four weeks wins the tournament, and receives a real-world prize.
Basic Rules of All Blind Tournament
Below lies the rules of ABT written in laymen's terms for ease of understanding.
While a comprehensive rule system exists, new players and quick glances are best left for this basic explanation.
Overview
The All Blind Tournament (ABT) is a Magic tournament that consists of four rounds of X Card Blind (XCB), run entirely within this forum. To compete, entrants submit decks containing X cards which are played against each other. Scoring assumes optimal play, without randomness or concealed information.
Deck Construction Rules
1. A deck must contain exactly X cards.
2. A deck may contain any number of copies of any Vintage-legal card, but can't contain any cards on the ABT Banned List.
3. A player's deck must not enable that player to win the game before an opponent's second turn.
4. A player's deck must not enable that player to force an opponent to lose any cards in his or her hand before an opponent's second turn.
5. A player's deck must enable that player to win the game.
Deck Submission Rules
6. An entrant submits his or her deck to the ABT moderator by private message (pm).
Playing the Decks
7. Entrants don't actually play their decks, because game results can be determined theoretically.
8. Each player starts the game with the cards in his or her deck in his or her hand.
9. A player doesn't lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
10. A random effect resolves in favor of the opponent of the owner of that effect.
11. Players know all information that would normally be concealed from them.
12. Each player plays one two-game match against each other player, and each player is the starting player once per match.
Points
13. The entrant with the most points in a round is the round winner. For each match, an entrant earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game. However, an entrant earns only 2 points for a split match (each player wins a game).
14. The entrant with the most points in the four rounds comprising the ABT is the tournament winner.
Extra Rules
15. Some optional rules may be used; see Optional Rules.
16. The Basic Rules don't cover every issue. For in-depth rules, see Comprehensive Rules.
Optional Rules
Land Rule
Any player may play a basic land of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land.
Expanded Land Rule
Any player may play a basic land of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land. Any player may play an additional land on each of his or her turns from his or her hand.
Alternative Land Rule
If a player would draw a card from an empty library, that player puts a basic land card of his or her choice from outside the game into his or her hand instead. The starting player doesn't skip the draw step of his or her first turn.
Sanctioned Magic Format
A deck may contain only cards contained in sets legal in the specified format.
Counter Rule
Until each player has completed two turns, each player ignores any part of an effect of a source an opponent owns that would counter a spell that player controls.
Life Rule
If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game. Determine whether a deck enables the player of that deck to win the game as though this rule didn't exist.
Special Format
Other rules are specified.
XCB Comprehensive Rules
Below lies the comprehensive rules system for the ABT.
Rules are written for precision and game clarification. They are not written for ease of reading.
Game Rules
1.1. There are many versions of XCB. Each version has a name, of the form XCB 'Land Rule' 'Sanctioned Magic Format' 'Special Format' '(Bonus)' 'Counter Rule' 'Life Rule'.
1.1a. X is a number.
1.1b. 'Land Rule' can be LR, ELR, ALR, or nothing. LR indicates that the basic land rule is in effect, ELR indicates that the expanded land rule is in effect, and ALR indicates that the alternative land rule is in effect (see Rule 1.7).
1.1c. 'Sanctioned Magic Format' can be the name of a sanctioned Magic constructed format or nothing. The name of a format indicates that only cards contained in sets legal in that format may be submitted. This is an exception to rule 2.3c.
1.1d. 'Special Format' can be the name of at least one special format or nothing. The name of a special format indicates that the special format in effect (see Rule 1.8).
1.1e. 'Bonus' can be (Bonus) or nothing. (Bonus) modifies the preceding special format, indicating that an entrant must not follow the rules of that format, but that entrant will earn a specified number of bonus points if he or she does (see Rule 2.4f).
1.1f. 'Counter Rule' can be C or nothing. C indicates that the counter rule is in effect (see Rule 1.9).
1.1g. 'Life Rule' can be LF, AL, or nothing. LF indicates that the life rule is in effect and AL indicates that the alternative life rule is in effect (see Rule 1.10).
1.2. Decks are not played, but are scored as though they were. The player of a deck is the entrant who submitted that deck.
1.3. Except for the changes described in these rules, games follow the rules for a normal game of Magic.
1.3a. Ignore any part of an instruction that isn't covered by these rules or the rules of Magic.
1.4. An entrant's deck contains exactly X cards (see Rule 1.1).
1.4a. A player's opening hand contains the cards in his or her deck.
1.4b. Players don't draw hands or mulligan.
1.4c. Players don't have sideboards.
1.5. Players' libraries begin the game empty.
1.5a. A player doesn't lose the game as a result of being unable to draw a card.
1.6. A cost or effect that would produce a random result produces the result that least benefits the player who paid the cost or the owner of the source of the effect instead.
1.7. Some versions of XCB use a land rule.
1.7a. This is the basic land rule (LR). Any player may play a basic land or basic snow land of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land.
1.7b. This is the expanded land rule (ELR). Any player may play a basic land or basic snow land of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game any time he or she could normally play a land. Any player may play an additional land on each of his or her turns from his or her hand.
1.7c. This is the alternative land rule (ALR). If a player would draw a card from an empty library, that player puts a basic land or basic snow land card of the subtype of his or her choice from outside the game into his or her hand instead. The starting player doesn't skip the draw step of his or her first turn.
1.8. Some versions of XCB use a special format. A special format is an extra set of rules. These rules overwrite any other applicable rules. A non-comprehensive list of special formats is maintained here.
1.8a. Some special formats cause players to draw hands. The drawn cards become part of that player's opening hand.
1.8b. Some special formats generate continuous effects. Continuous effects generated by special formats are applied in the order those formats are listed in the XCB version name, before any other effects that could be applied in a layer.
1.8c. Some special formats require an entrant to make some number of decisions in addition to or instead of submitting a deck. An entrant's submission is that entrant's deck and any decisions that entrant makes. An entrant's submission must not violate rule 2.3 if all instances of the word 'deck' in that rule are replaced with 'submission'.
1.8d. Some special formats refer to decks that obtain or could obtain results. Saying that a deck obtains or could obtain a result means that the player of that deck obtains or could obtain that result in a game or match against another player (see Rule 1.11). If a deck obtains or could obtain a result against another deck, then the player of that deck obtains or could obtain that result against the player of the other deck.
1.9. Some versions of XCB use the counter rule.
1.9a. This is the counter rule (C). Until each player has completed two turns, each player ignores any part of an effect of a source an opponent owns that would counter a spell that player controls.
1.10. Some versions of XCB use a life rule.
1.10a. This is the life rule (LF). If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game. Determine whether a deck enables the player of that deck to win a match as though this rule didn't exist (see Rule 2.3b).
1.10b. This is the alternative life rule (AL). If neither player would win otherwise, then the player who maintains the higher life total wins the game.
1.11. Each player plays one match against each other player.
1.11a. Each match has two games.
1.11b. Each player is the starting player for one game in each match.
1.11c. Games are played with perfect information; players know the identities of face-down cards and cards in hidden zones, and players know which decisions have been made by other players.
1.11d. Games are played optimally. The best outcome for a player is to win the game and the worst outcome is to lose the game.
1.11e. If a game would continue indefinitely, then the game is a draw.
Tournament Rules
2.1. Entrants compete in a competition.
2.1a. The shortest type of competition is a round. Typically, each round lasts one week.
2.1b. The ABT is a competition consisting of four rounds.
2.2. An entrant submits his or her deck to the ABT moderator.
2.2a. An entrant submits his or her deck by private message (pm).
2.2b. An entrant may submit multiple decks, but only the most recently submitted deck is counted.
2.2c. An illegal deck is not counted. At the moderator’s discretion, an illegal deck may be replaced by a similar deck – in which any cards causing that deck to be illegal have been removed or replaced.
2.2d. The moderator determines the result of each match. Entrants may challenge results, but not after the results of the first round of a new ABT has been posted, except at the moderator's discretion.
2.2e. An entrant may name his or her deck. If an entrant doesn't, then the moderator may name it.
2.3. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.3a. An entrant may not submit a deck that could enable the player of that deck to win the game or force any cards in an opponent's hand to change zones before an opponent's second turn. A card is forced to change zones if the owner of that card could make no sequence of decisions that would not result in either that card changing zones or that player losing the game before his or her second turn. Ignore this rule in the following cases:
i. All cards in an opponent's hand that would be forced to change zones would not be cast by that opponent and would enter the battlefield under that opponent's control. For example, a 4CB deck with two copies of Black Lotus could contain Stronghold Gambit but could not contain Wild Evocation.
ii. All cards in an opponent's hand that weren't there as a result of a cost or effect that opponent controlled that would be forced to change zones during the resolution of a spell or ability would be in that opponent's hand after that spell or ability resolved. For example, a 3CB deck could contain Timetwister and Black Lotus but an 8CB deck could not.
iii. Cards in an opponent's hand would be forced to change zones only if cards in that opponent's hand that started outside the game would cause that opponent's maximum hand size at the start of the game to be exceeded. For example, a 3CB LR deck could contain two copies of Ancestral Recall.
iv. The rule would be violated only in a game that existed as a result of an effect that resolved not before the specified turn or until each player had completed the specified number of turns that restarted the game or created a subgame. For example, a 2CB LR deck could contain Karn Liberated.
2.3b. An entrant may not submit a deck that wouldn't enable the player of that deck to win a match (see Rule 2.4d) against the player of at least one deck satisfying all rules.
2.3c. A deck may contain any number of copies of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1). Except as modified by a special format, all cards used in a game must be legal in Vintage.
2.3d. A deck may contain any number of copies of any card that will become legal in Vintage upon release of a set that's been revealed fully and officially since the start of the round.
2.3e. A deck may not contain any cards on the ABT Banned List.
2.4. Points determine round standings.
2.4a. Entrants are ranked – first to last – in order of decreasing number of points.
2.4b. For each match, an entrant earns 3 points per game win and 1 point per drawn game.
2.4c. The combined result of both games in a match is called a match result. Possible match results are: 6 – two wins, 4 – a win and a draw, 3 or 2 or S – a win and a loss, 2 – two draws, 1 – a draw and a loss, and 0 – two losses.
2.4d. Some match results are also denoted by names: two wins – match win, a win and a loss – split match, two draws – draw, and two losses – match loss. An entrant wins the match if he or she wins both games, splits the match if he or she wins a game and loses a game, draws a match if he or she draws both games, and loses the match if he or she loses both games.
2.4e. An entrant earns only 2 points for a split match. This is an exception to rule 2.4b.
2.4f. An entrant may earn a number of bonus points defined by a special format. An entrant earns these points in addition to any other points.
2.4g. A table of match results is posted at the end of each round. Its rows represent entrants and its columns represent those entrants' opponents. An entrant's total number of points is listed at the end of his or her row.
2.5. The entrant with the most tournament points over the course of the ABT is the tournament winner.
2.5a. Each round, an entrant receives tournament points equal to his or her average match result for that round multiplied by 100, rounded to the nearest integer or some number of decimal places chosen at the moderator's discretion. For example, an entrant scoring 6-6-6-6-X-0-0-0 in a round with 8 entrants receives 340 tournament points ((6 + 6 + 6 + 6) / (8 - 1) x 100).
2.5b. If two or more entrants would win the ABT, then each of those entrants competes in additional rounds specified by the moderator, until only one entrant has the most tournament points. Each additional round contains only the entrants who have the most tournament points. The moderator may specify a limit to the number of additional rounds.
3. Prize Rules
3.1. A prize shall be given to the tournament winner.
3.1a. The winner of the tournament shall be given the prize described within the tournament, or a suitable replacement upon the tournament's end.
3.1b. If the winner of the tournament has won two or more tournaments, then the highest ranked entrant who hasn't won two or more tournaments shall be given the prize instead.
3.1c. If the winner was a moderator for two or more rounds of the tournament, then the highest ranked entrant who wasn't the moderator for two or more rounds of that tournament shall be given the prize instead. This is to ensure fair play.
3.1d. An entrant may decline the prize. If he or she does, then that entrant may designate another entrant to receive the prize.
3.1e. Entrants under the age of 18 are ineligible for prizes, due to federal laws regarding the sharing of personal information of minors.
3.1f. In the event that a prize can't be given to an entrant, the moderator will do his best to find another suitable way to reward that entrant.
3.1g. No prize is 100% guaranteed, but is assumed upon a good faith basis. Let's face it, with international customs, weird laws, etc, we can't guarantee anything. We'll do our best.
3.2. As a prized tournament, special scoring rules and practices are in place.
3.2a. Entrants are responsible for their own scoring. Assistance will be given, especially to new entrants, but it is ultimately up to each entrant to ensure his or her scoring is completed and accurate.
3.2b. Incomplete scores are considered losses, even to both players in a match if necessary. This is to make sure a winner is determined at the end of a tournament.
3.2c. The moderator always has the final word regarding scores and rules. Entrants may question any scoring the moderator does, until the moderator says that a match's scoring is final.
3.2d. The moderator may, at his or her discretion, determine a match is too difficult to calculate and give it a tie score, or his or her best guess. Again, this is final.
3.2e. Once a winner has been announced as final, that entrant shall receive the prize, even if errors in scoring or points are shown later.
Permanently Banned Cards
The following cards are permanently banned in the All Blind Tournament.
Each round will have an additional banned list that extends beyond, but always includes, these cards.
Previous standings will always be posted below the opening post of each week's thread.
Standings will be updated after the current week has been completed and score checking has finished.
There's more that I'd like to say, but I'm pressed for time. Here are the bullet points:
- I finished scoring for all the decks that I received more than a day ago. However, as you may notice, a few match results still need to be completed. For now, ignore the tournament points listed in the spoiler, which are automatically generated by the excel file. I'll input the scores that you calculate as well as any remaining matches this weekend.
- I'm happy with the turnout for this round. That said, I feel it's probably despite rather than because of the format. I'm still interested in fine-tuning the Safe format, but my primary motivation now is to generate ideas about an appropriate alternative. I'm still going to respond to Reyemile's post at the end of the last thread, but I need more time to develop my response. Some quick points, though: I think that any variant of this format would do well to make an effect optional for the opponent rather saying the same result will occur every time (see Tempting Wurm), and I'd like to add counterspells, extra turns, and discard effects that take the whole hand to the scope of effects the rule covers. Would that result in another boring strategy dominating instead? Possibly.
- I'm also happy to welcome MyNameIsFourteen back to the game. It's been about 4.5 years since he played 5CB here, and seeing players from long ago return is one of the greatest things about an ongoing community game like this.
- I think that deck comments become less valuable when they're posted a few days late, but that's what's going to happen this round. Sorry. One general comment applies, though: you all have really cool decks.
- I hope the Monstrosity format proves to be fun and that I didn't miss anything broken. The format was originally going to have 3CB LR Safe as a base, but I'm hoping that 5CB Modern can provide reasonably interesting decks instead.
"Mana can't be added to mana pools unless it is being added by the ability of an emblem."
Players begin the game with an emblem that reads:
10
"At the beginning of your upkeep, put a charge counter on this emblem."
and
10
"{0}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only a number of times each turn equal to the number of charge counters on it"
It's not perfect, but it's interesting and feels less convoluted.
----------------
As to this round, I may have actually scored 0, or at least close to it.
I'll have more time to go in depth in my matchups tomorrow.
But I definitely scored super low.
1) Reyemile - on the play, combo off but he counters Gargoyle. On the draw, his goldfish is sadly too fast (I had a line that resolves Time Vault on turn 8... which is too slow)
1-4
2) knobbodi: I'm a full turn faster on the goldfish.
6-0
4) MyNameIsFourteen: Firestorm can't take out Gargoyle, my combo is too fast.
6-0
5) tomsloger: On the play, combo sneaks under Charm and Gargoyle is immune. On the draw, his deck does what it does.
3-3
6) Feyd_Ruin I can drop my combo on turn 4 and win without letting him Vindicate me.
6-0
7) bateleur: He can't stop the combo, but he CAN stop the win-con.
2-2
8) cruelshy: Can't stop the combo, CAN stop the win-con.
2-2
9) plopfill: Can't stop the combo, CAN stop the win-con.
2-2
10) DragonDart: Ack! Pithing Needle!
0-6
11) aurorasparrow: Can't stop the combo, CAN stop the win-con
3-3 On the play I can resolve Shapeshifter with Denial backup on turn five whilst he has at most two tokens. It then kills him much faster than his tokens kill me. On the draw he makes tokens before I can get counter mana up, and is easily able to swarm me.
0-6 On the play I cast Shapeshifter on turn three and deal lethal on my turn six. This is not fast enough, since he combo kills on turn five with counter backup.
6-0 (I think? Juuuuudge!) I save my counter for his Gargoyle, so he can't win. Rule 716.1b means that he cannot take "infinite" turns and must specify a finite number. I therefore eventually kill him.
04 MyNameIsFourteen :: "Unsafe At Any Speed"
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3-3 On the play I can counter his Pack Rat. His best line is to wait until turn three so that he can Firestorm on the same turn. I then drop Shapeshifter. He draws Ulamog. I swing for 7. He drops Rat and makes a token. I swing for 7. He makes another token, but that's not enough (he can't make two because he has to redraw Ulamog). On the draw I get crushed by Rats.
3-3 Izzet Charm can burn a turn three Shapeshifter. So I hold counter mana up and resolve it on turn five. If he tries for Wistful Thinking I let it resolve, since that gives me my win condition! On the draw, however, he can resolve Wistful with counter backup on turn five. I am therefore forced to drop Shapeshifter on turn three. He burns it on his turn four. On turn five he casts Wistful, forcing me down to one card in hand. I die on my turn 11 upkeep and Leviathan can't kill him until turn 12.
06 Feyd_Ruin :: "The Obzedeck"
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate
6-0 I hold countermagic up for Vindicate. On turn five I get Shapeshifter down and he cannot both Vindicate and Obzedat. I counter whichever he does. I then activate Shapeshifter on my turn. Obzedat means I take four swings to kill him instead of three, but I have that time since Obzedat doesn't swing itself until a turn after it's cast. He has another line where he destroys one of my lands before I hit five mana. This doesn't help him, because with Vindicate in the yard I can cast Shapeshifter at three mana without worrying.
0-6 He has looping Mists with Mana Drain backup by turn four.
09 plopfill :: ""
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
6-0 This is a waiting game. On my turn five if he's done nothing yet I make Shapeshifter with two mana up, which wins the race as he untaps with at most six mana, so only gets one Angel before I have counter mana up and the tempo to finish the job. So - he has to make an Angel on his turn five on the play. This Angel kills me before my turn nine. I make Leviathan on my five and hit on six, seven, eight for the win.
6-0 Pithing Needle prevents Shapeshifter, but Arcane Denial holds off Beacon because I can pay for Syncopate (!). On turn 11 I hardcast Leviathan with counter backup. It then wins the race.
Would that result in another boring strategy dominating instead? Possibly.
From my perspective the basic difficulty is that limiting acceleration doesn't actually make a format safer. In particular, what it does is crush the available cardpool down to the very lowest converted mana costs, amongst which there are very few viable options.
Removing countermagic is good in the sense that it makes higher CMC spells more appealing, but might not help much with the health of the format since it just makes discard (especially Wistful Thinking) too strong.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
3-3 On the play I can resolve Shapeshifter with Denial backup on turn five whilst he has at most two tokens. It then kills him much faster than his tokens kill me. On the draw he makes tokens before I can get counter mana up, and is easily able to swarm me.
0-6 On the play I cast Shapeshifter on turn three and deal lethal on my turn six. This is not fast enough, since he combo kills on turn five with counter backup.
6-0 (I think? Juuuuudge!) I save my counter for his Gargoyle, so he can't win. Rule 716.1b means that he cannot take "infinite" turns and must specify a finite number. I therefore eventually kill him.
04 MyNameIsFourteen :: "Unsafe At Any Speed"
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3-3 On the play I can counter his Pack Rat. His best line is to wait until turn three so that he can Firestorm on the same turn. I then drop Shapeshifter. He draws Ulamog. I swing for 7. He drops Rat and makes a token. I swing for 7. He makes another token, but that's not enough (he can't make two because he has to redraw Ulamog). On the draw I get crushed by Rats.
3-3 Izzet Charm can burn a turn three Shapeshifter. So I hold counter mana up and resolve it on turn five. If he tries for Wistful Thinking I let it resolve, since that gives me my win condition! On the draw, however, he can resolve Wistful with counter backup on turn five. I am therefore forced to drop Shapeshifter on turn three. He burns it on his turn four. On turn five he casts Wistful, forcing me down to one card in hand. I die on my turn 11 upkeep and Leviathan can't kill him until turn 12.
06 Feyd_Ruin :: "The Obzedeck"
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate
6-0 I hold countermagic up for Vindicate. On turn five I get Shapeshifter down and he cannot both Vindicate and Obzedat. I counter whichever he does. I then activate Shapeshifter on my turn. Obzedat means I take four swings to kill him instead of three, but I have that time since Obzedat doesn't swing itself until a turn after it's cast. He has another line where he destroys one of my lands before I hit five mana. This doesn't help him, because with Vindicate in the yard I can cast Shapeshifter at three mana without worrying.
0-6 He has looping Mists with Mana Drain backup by turn four.
09 plopfill :: ""
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
6-0 This is a waiting game. On my turn five if he's done nothing yet I make Shapeshifter with two mana up, which wins the race as he untaps with at most six mana, so only gets one Angel before I have counter mana up and the tempo to finish the job. So - he has to make an Angel on his turn five on the play. This Angel kills me before my turn nine. I make Leviathan on my five and hit on six, seven, eight for the win.
6-0 Pithing Needle prevents Shapeshifter, but Arcane Denial holds off Beacon because I can pay for Syncopate (!). On turn 11 I hardcast Leviathan with counter backup. It then wins the race.
0-6 On his turn five he can always resolve Valakut with counter backup, long before I can kill him.
From my perspective the basic difficulty is that limiting acceleration doesn't actually make a format safer. In particular, what it does is crush the available cardpool down to the very lowest converted mana costs, amongst which there are very few viable options.
Removing countermagic is good in the sense that it makes higher CMC spells more appealing, but might not help much with the health of the format since it just makes discard (especially Wistful Thinking) too strong.
Yeah... a better solution to the problem of "letting people play fairly" would, I think, be to push back the "make them discard/win the game" threshold instead - or perhaps "in addition to".
That said, this round showed a need for some limits on counterspells in land rule weeks? They're kinda the no-brainer answer, particularly given you can use them sooner than discard.
Hey guys, great to be back! You'll have to forgive me as I sneak in working out my results over the course of my workday and edit them in, but here goes a placeholder: (p for pending) Seems like I won more games this week just by having an Eldrazi in my deck than by anything my other two cards did, so I'm not totally thrilled with my deck.
Also, I'm sure I've screwed up at least one race below, it's been a while since I did this.
7 | 3 0 0 X 6 3 3 6 0 0 4 | 22
04 MyNameIsFourteen :: "Unsafe At Any Speed"
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3-3 When I'm on the play and I stick the rat, they just barely overwhelm two 1/1's per turn, if my sense of the correct attacks/blocks is correct, because rats present lethal so much faster. When I'm on the draw and have to recycle the rat with firestorm, i'm too slow to keep up.
6-0 I think I can win both by waiting. Wistful thinking moves my hand to my library and I take 6 while I draw back up. Then I cast Ulamog, blow up the affliction, and attack twice.
06 Feyd_Ruin :: "The Obzedeck"
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate
3-3 Rats win on the play and loose on the draw, as Feyd said, though it took me a while to make my peace with it.
My play
1a mountain
1b forest, helix pinnacle (20/0 - 20)
2a swamp, pack rat
2b island, pass
3a swamp, dicard ulamog for a rat, attack, eot 2 counters (18/2-20)
3b island, pass
4a swamp, discard ulamog for a rat, attack, eot 3 counters (12/5-20)
4b forest, pass
5a swamp, discard ulamog for a rat, attack (constant mists with buyback), eot 2 counters (12/7-20)
5b forest, pass
loop until turn 11
6 (12/9-20)
7 (10/11-20)
8 (12/13-20)
9 (12/15-20)
10 (12/17-20)
at end of turn 10 board looks like
forest forest island island pinnacle with 17 counters vs: mountain, 10 swamps, and 9 rats
11a cast ulamog, targeting a rat, rat dies, (mana drain ulamog), ulamog shuffles, attack (constant mists with buyback) (12/17-20), 8 rats
11b forest, pass
12a attack with 8 rats (constant mist with buyback), cast ulamog targeting a rat, eot 2 counters on helix (12/19-20)
12b forest, pass
13a attack with ulamog - how does annihilator 4 work in this format? If he must sac pinnacle, I at least get a draw. If he may ignore it because he has 4 lands, I loose. If he has to sac 4 of his 5 permanents, I'll win a turn or two later.
Your play
1a island
1b mountain
2a island
2b swamp,
3a forest, pinnacle
3b swamp, rat (mana drain), then firestorm you, discarding ulamog (eot 3 counters on pinnacle) (19/3-20)
after 3, the board is island island forest, pinnacle vs mountain swamp swamp with ulamog and rats in the deck (for the rest of the game if I keep discarding i will get 1 card per turn)
4a forest, pass
4b draw ulamog, swamp (eot 4 counters on pinnacle) (19/7-20)
5a forest, pass
5b draw rats, swamp, cast rasts, make rat with ulamog, shuffle (eot 5 counters on pinnacle) (19/12-20)
6a forest, pass
6b swamp, make 3rd rat, attack with 2 rats (eot 6 counters) (15/18-20)
7a forest, pass
7b swamp, 4th rat, attack with 3 rats (eot 7 counters) (3/25-20)
now we go into a similar loop as above, since he must start fogging, and has 6 lands left over for helix)
8 (3/31-20) 5 rats
9 (3/37-20) 6 rats
10 (3/43-20) 7 rats
11 I cast ulamog, killing a rat, but no counterspell this time, and again it comes down to how annihilator 4 works.
09 plopfill :: ""
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
0-6 a 4/4 on turn 5ish plus path holds off rats long enough for 7 angels on turn 9 to do me in.
4-1 Ok, I've probably got this race wrong, but I think I win on the play and draw on the draw. On the play, I get rat on turn 2, they get bigger than 3/3 before Valakut comes online, and then turn 11 I cast ulamog, destroying the bridge, and attack for lethal. On the draw, I cannot cast rats, but I can cast Ulamog just before Valakut kills me, destroying Valakut, but I'm never able to attack because of bridge.
I did better then my first look.
A couple of trick plays gained me points.
0-0-0-3-0-x-6-6-0-0-6 | 20
My non-0s:
4: On my play, I vindicate before he makes a token. Then shuffle and vindicate each time he drops. Obz drops and races Ulamog's cost. On my draw, he gets a token first, which overtakes me.
7: Whenever he casts Shapeshifter, I can vindicate. So he holds to cast and ditch. When he does this, I serene remembrence and then vindicate. So he holds to cast Arcane Denial too. He drops, ditches. On my turn, I serene. If he arcanes, then Shapeshifter is an 0/1. .. If he arcanes my Obzedat, I can shuffle him up, then shuffle and vindicate his guy. Obzedat races.
8: Reshuffle from drain, vindicate mists, swing race.
I did better then my first look.
A couple of trick plays gained me points.
0-0-0-3-0-x-6-6-0-0-6 | 20
My non-0s:
4: On my play, I vindicate before he makes a token. Then shuffle and vindicate each time he drops. Obz drops and races Ulamog's cost. On my draw, he gets a token first, which overtakes me.
This one isn't quite that simple because if I wait until I have 5 lands in a main phase, I can float 5 mana, cast the rat, and make a token before I give you priority to cast vindicate, then we race, and sometimes I can win. There are several lines of play that involve you possibly vindicating my land on turn 3/4 to make that take a long time to start, and I haven't had time to figure out if you can cut me off from all race-winning options - I'll think more when I get home from work tonight.
I do agree that I can always win the race when I am on the play.
This one isn't quite that simple because if I wait until I have 5 lands in a main phase, I can float 5 mana, cast the rat, and make a token before I give you priority to cast vindicate, then we race, and sometimes I can win. There are several lines of play that involve you possibly vindicating my land on turn 3/4 to make that take a long time to start, and I haven't had time to figure out if you can cut me off from all race-winning options - I'll think more when I get home from work tonight.
I do agree that I can always win the race when I am on the play.
Well, that should make this easier to figure out - now I just have to work out the turn 5, 2 rats line. Thanks!
Ok, please help me with
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (on the draw)
vs
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate (on the play)
Turns 1-4 are dull as paste
Turn 5 he casts Obzedat, blinks it and I make 2 rats (one is a token) (22-18)
Turn 6 he vindicates one of my rats, drains me for 2, attacks, shuffles, and blinks (24-11), then i get to make 2 rats, attack with the old one (21-11) and shuffle
Turn 7 he drains me (23-9), draws remembrance, and he must decide to attack in or not. I'm pretty sure if he does not attack I will win in a few turns because of too many rats, and if he does attack I must double block, loosing 2 rats down to 1. Then on my turn I make one more rat ... and now I'm getting lost in the branches. Sorry.
I would have done significantly better with Dissipate than Syncopate, I believe.
10 DragonDart
Beacon of Destruction / Pithing Needle / Syncopate
0 | 1 6 6 6 0 6 0 2 6 X 0 | 33
vs. 01 Reyemile
1-4
Arcane Denial / Mistveil Plains / Raise the Alarm
Pithing Needle always prevents Mistveil Plains from working. On the play, I can threaten to Syncopate Raise the Alarm before he can cast it. If he waits and counters the Syncopate, Beacon of Destruction races faster than his tokens. If I ever try to cast Beacon proactively, he can arcane denial, and I can't stop him. So it's a draw.
On the draw, he casts Raise the Alarm before I can stop them, and Denial keeps my Beacon at bay.
vs. 02 knobbodi
6-0
Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Swan Song
Needle voids the Twin. If he casts Swan Song, the token I get outraces his lone Exarch. If he doesn't, I have a recurring Beacon.
vs. 03 WhammWhamme
6-0
Sanctum Gargoyle / Time Vault / Voltaic Key
Needle + Beacon
vs. 04 MyNameIsFourteen
6-0
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Needle on Pack Rat. Beacon wins.
05 tomsloger
0-6
Izzet Charm / Shrieking Affliction / Wistful Thinking
Charm's counter mode prevents me from Syncopating Wistful Thinking.
07 bateleur
0-6
Arcane Denial / Inkwell Leviathan / Volrath's Shapeshifter
What bat said.
08 cruelshy
2-2
Constant Mists / Helix Pinnacle / Mana Drain
Needle stops Helix in its tracks. Mana Drain stops Beacon in its.
09 plopfill
6-0
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
Syncooate exiles Entreat.
11 aurorasparrow
0-6
Arcane Denial / Ensnaring Bridge / Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Denial stops me from using Beacon. I die a slow, horrible death by volcano.
Ok, I need some help with my match against Ozbedat, see my post above. Also, I'm not sure how annihilator interacts with the 'no ld' rules, so I need that clarified for my matchup against helix pinnacle. (see my results post)
In either case, what I've learned here was that firestorm was a pretty poor choice for a 3rd card. Mogg always told me my decks were too narrow and too underpowered, and it seems I've not learned.
Thanks guys!
EDIT: once I realized the 'vindicate with rememberance on the stack' trick, my ability to compete on the draw against obzedat is highly compromised. I'm now sold that it is a split.
11 vs 01: Raise the Alarm Recursion wins. 0-6
11 vs 02: knobbodi can't stop bridge or Valakut. 6-0
11 vs 03: I can't stop infinite turns, but I can always counter Gargoyle. 2-2
11 vs 04: I trust his judgment. 1-4
11 vs 05: tomsloger can empty my hand on turn 5, which kills me faster than Valakut kills him. 0-6
11 vs 06: 0-6 no question.
11 vs 07: Protected Bridge. 6-0
11 vs 08: Valakut outraces Pinnacle. 6-0
11 vs 09: He can't stop bridge or Valakut. 6-0
11 vs 10: He never has enough mana to Syncopate when I arcane Denial his Beacon. 6-0
Also, I'm not sure how annihilator interacts with the 'no ld' rules, so I need that clarified for my matchup against helix pinnacle. (see my results post)
Here's the relevant rule:
"If a spell or ability controlled by an opponent of the controller of a noncreature basic land that has no abilities except mana abilities would cause another permanent controlled by the controller of that land to be moved to another zone, and if that land could be moved to that zone if these rules were not in effect, then that land's controller may choose to move that land to that zone instead."
In other words - where sacrifice is concerned - pretend this week's rules don't exist, except that you can't force lands to be sacrificed. For example, if an opponent controlled four basic lands and one nonland permanent, that player could choose to sacrifice the four basic lands to avoid sacrificing the nonland permanent. If that player chose to sacrifice the nonland permanent, he or she wouldn't have to sacrifice any basic lands.
As always, correct me if I've made a mistake or haven't seen a line of play.
vs Reyemile: HA, totally forgot how Mistveil Plains works
0-6
vs knobbodi: He can't interact with me due to safe land rule
6-0
vs WhammeWhamme: Like bateleur, I need a judge on this one. If he can only take a finite number of turns, Helix Pinnacle eventually gets enough counters on it.
6-0
vs MyNameIsFourteen: Didn't even bothering figuring out how annihilator interacts with the safe land rule because he can just loop Firestorm forever and ever.
0-6
vs tomsloger: "Mana drain counters wistful thinking, even with izzet charm backup because you'll have the extra 2 to pay for it. Then you hold helix pinnacle so affliction doesn't kill you, until you cast it on turn 100+, and win on your next upkeep. 6-0 in your favor."
6-0
vs Feyd_Ruin: I counter the Obzedat when he can first play it, he can replay it again on turn 7, and he drains me to death when Helix Pinnacle has like 90 counters on it.
0-6
vs bateleur: Combat damage will never kill me.
6-0
vs plopfill: Combat damage will never kill me.
6-0
vs DragonDart: Pithing Needle breaks the helix; Mana Drain puts out the Beacon. We spend the next 1000 turns staring into space.
2-2
vs aurorasparrow: Molten Pinnacle > Helix Pinnacle
Mana drain counters wistful thinking, even with izzet charm backup because you'll have the extra 2 to pay for it. Then you hold helix pinnacle so affliction doesn't kill you, until you cast it on turn 100+, and win on your next upkeep. 6-0 in your favor.
Also, against Reyemile, like he said, recurring arcane denial stops constant mists. 0-6
Regarding next week's format - can anyone point me to a thread in the archives with an older round of 5CB Modern? I'm trying to bone up on the format a little bit and so far all I can find is ABT10 week 3 which was 5CB Modern with doubled mana.
Maybe this format just hasn't been played much, but I think I'm going to embarrass myself with the gauntlet I've cooked up so far and I'd love to find some giant soldiers to stand on.
Also, I don't know if it matters or not, but there is no 'vindicate with remembrance on the stack' trick, because vindicate is a sorcery.
Also also, one thing to keep in mind when you're looking through those archives: When I ran Modern 5CB, you could win or make the opponent discard on your 2nd turn, not your 3rd turn.
This thread contains the results for week 1 of All Blind Tournament #13 and is the start of week 2 of ABT#13.
Week 1 of ABT#13 Next Round : Week 2 of ABT#13 Information
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
- I finished scoring for all the decks that I received more than a day ago. However, as you may notice, a few match results still need to be completed. For now, ignore the tournament points listed in the spoiler, which are automatically generated by the excel file. I'll input the scores that you calculate as well as any remaining matches this weekend.
- I'm happy with the turnout for this round. That said, I feel it's probably despite rather than because of the format. I'm still interested in fine-tuning the Safe format, but my primary motivation now is to generate ideas about an appropriate alternative. I'm still going to respond to Reyemile's post at the end of the last thread, but I need more time to develop my response. Some quick points, though: I think that any variant of this format would do well to make an effect optional for the opponent rather saying the same result will occur every time (see Tempting Wurm), and I'd like to add counterspells, extra turns, and discard effects that take the whole hand to the scope of effects the rule covers. Would that result in another boring strategy dominating instead? Possibly.
- I'm also happy to welcome MyNameIsFourteen back to the game. It's been about 4.5 years since he played 5CB here, and seeing players from long ago return is one of the greatest things about an ongoing community game like this.
- I think that deck comments become less valuable when they're posted a few days late, but that's what's going to happen this round. Sorry. One general comment applies, though: you all have really cool decks.
- I hope the Monstrosity format proves to be fun and that I didn't miss anything broken. The format was originally going to have 3CB LR Safe as a base, but I'm hoping that 5CB Modern can provide reasonably interesting decks instead.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
It's not perfect, but it's interesting and feels less convoluted.
----------------
As to this round, I may have actually scored 0, or at least close to it.
I'll have more time to go in depth in my matchups tomorrow.
But I definitely scored super low.
No longer staff here.
1) Reyemile - on the play, combo off but he counters Gargoyle. On the draw, his goldfish is sadly too fast (I had a line that resolves Time Vault on turn 8... which is too slow)
1-4
2) knobbodi: I'm a full turn faster on the goldfish.
6-0
4) MyNameIsFourteen: Firestorm can't take out Gargoyle, my combo is too fast.
6-0
5) tomsloger: On the play, combo sneaks under Charm and Gargoyle is immune. On the draw, his deck does what it does.
3-3
6) Feyd_Ruin I can drop my combo on turn 4 and win without letting him Vindicate me.
6-0
7) bateleur: He can't stop the combo, but he CAN stop the win-con.
2-2
8) cruelshy: Can't stop the combo, CAN stop the win-con.
2-2
9) plopfill: Can't stop the combo, CAN stop the win-con.
2-2
10) DragonDart: Ack! Pithing Needle!
0-6
11) aurorasparrow: Can't stop the combo, CAN stop the win-con
2-2
X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 | PT | TPs
3 | 1 6 X 6 3 6 2 2 2 0 2 | 29 | ???
7 | 3 0 6 3 3 6 X 0 6 6 0 | 30
07 bateleur :: "Cheatyface"
Arcane Denial / Inkwell Leviathan / Volrath's Shapeshifter
vs
01 Reyemile :: ""
Arcane Denial / Mistveil Plains / Raise the Alarm
3-3 On the play I can resolve Shapeshifter with Denial backup on turn five whilst he has at most two tokens. It then kills him much faster than his tokens kill me. On the draw he makes tokens before I can get counter mana up, and is easily able to swarm me.
02 knobbodi :: ""
Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Swan Song
0-6 On the play I cast Shapeshifter on turn three and deal lethal on my turn six. This is not fast enough, since he combo kills on turn five with counter backup.
03 WhammWhamme :: ""
Sanctum Gargoyle / Time Vault / Voltaic Key
6-0 (I think? Juuuuudge!) I save my counter for his Gargoyle, so he can't win. Rule 716.1b means that he cannot take "infinite" turns and must specify a finite number. I therefore eventually kill him.
04 MyNameIsFourteen :: "Unsafe At Any Speed"
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3-3 On the play I can counter his Pack Rat. His best line is to wait until turn three so that he can Firestorm on the same turn. I then drop Shapeshifter. He draws Ulamog. I swing for 7. He drops Rat and makes a token. I swing for 7. He makes another token, but that's not enough (he can't make two because he has to redraw Ulamog). On the draw I get crushed by Rats.
05 tomsloger :: ""
Izzet Charm / Shrieking Affliction / Wistful Thinking
3-3 Izzet Charm can burn a turn three Shapeshifter. So I hold counter mana up and resolve it on turn five. If he tries for Wistful Thinking I let it resolve, since that gives me my win condition! On the draw, however, he can resolve Wistful with counter backup on turn five. I am therefore forced to drop Shapeshifter on turn three. He burns it on his turn four. On turn five he casts Wistful, forcing me down to one card in hand. I die on my turn 11 upkeep and Leviathan can't kill him until turn 12.
06 Feyd_Ruin :: "The Obzedeck"
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate
6-0 I hold countermagic up for Vindicate. On turn five I get Shapeshifter down and he cannot both Vindicate and Obzedat. I counter whichever he does. I then activate Shapeshifter on my turn. Obzedat means I take four swings to kill him instead of three, but I have that time since Obzedat doesn't swing itself until a turn after it's cast. He has another line where he destroys one of my lands before I hit five mana. This doesn't help him, because with Vindicate in the yard I can cast Shapeshifter at three mana without worrying.
08 cruelshy :: ""
Constant Mists / Helix Pinnacle / Mana Drain
0-6 He has looping Mists with Mana Drain backup by turn four.
09 plopfill :: ""
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
6-0 This is a waiting game. On my turn five if he's done nothing yet I make Shapeshifter with two mana up, which wins the race as he untaps with at most six mana, so only gets one Angel before I have counter mana up and the tempo to finish the job. So - he has to make an Angel on his turn five on the play. This Angel kills me before my turn nine. I make Leviathan on my five and hit on six, seven, eight for the win.
10 DragonDart :: ""
Beacon of Destruction / Pithing Needle / Syncopate
6-0 Pithing Needle prevents Shapeshifter, but Arcane Denial holds off Beacon because I can pay for Syncopate (!). On turn 11 I hardcast Leviathan with counter backup. It then wins the race.
11 aurorasparrow :: ""
Arcane Denial / Ensnaring Bridge / Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
0-6 On his turn five he can always resolve Valakut with counter backup, long before I can kill him.
From my perspective the basic difficulty is that limiting acceleration doesn't actually make a format safer. In particular, what it does is crush the available cardpool down to the very lowest converted mana costs, amongst which there are very few viable options.
Removing countermagic is good in the sense that it makes higher CMC spells more appealing, but might not help much with the health of the format since it just makes discard (especially Wistful Thinking) too strong.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Yeah... a better solution to the problem of "letting people play fairly" would, I think, be to push back the "make them discard/win the game" threshold instead - or perhaps "in addition to".
That said, this round showed a need for some limits on counterspells in land rule weeks? They're kinda the no-brainer answer, particularly given you can use them sooner than discard.
Vs Reyemile:
Combo with counter backup 6-0
Vs WhammWhamme:
If only swan song could hit artifacts 0-6
Vs MyNameIsFourteen:
Can't interact, I combo him out 6-0
Vs tomsloger:
Swan song stops wistful thinking, and I just wait til turn 6 to dodge izzet charm 6-0
Vs Feyd_Ruin:
I combo him out 6-0
Vs bateleur:
Combo with counter backup 6-0
Vs cruelshy:
If I could tap one of his lands on the upkeep of his turn 4 when I'm on the play, this would be 3-3. Alas, I cannot. 0-6
Vs plopfill:
Combo with counter backup 6-0
Vs DragonDart:
Pithing needle OP. 0-6
Vs aurorasparrow:
Again, if only I could tap a land. 0-6
2 | 6 X 0 6 6 6 6 0 6 0 0 | 36
Also, I'm sure I've screwed up at least one race below, it's been a while since I did this.
7 | 3 0 0 X 6 3 3 6 0 0 4 | 22
04 MyNameIsFourteen :: "Unsafe At Any Speed"
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
vs
01 Reyemile :: ""
Arcane Denial / Mistveil Plains / Raise the Alarm
3-3 When I'm on the play and I stick the rat, they just barely overwhelm two 1/1's per turn, if my sense of the correct attacks/blocks is correct, because rats present lethal so much faster. When I'm on the draw and have to recycle the rat with firestorm, i'm too slow to keep up.
02 knobbodi :: ""
Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Swan Song
0-6 I have no disruption for his combo so he kills me turn 4 in both games.
03 WhammWhamme :: ""
Sanctum Gargoyle / Time Vault / Voltaic Key
0-6 Nothing I can do to stop him comboing off.
05 tomsloger :: ""
Izzet Charm / Shrieking Affliction / Wistful Thinking
6-0 I think I can win both by waiting. Wistful thinking moves my hand to my library and I take 6 while I draw back up. Then I cast Ulamog, blow up the affliction, and attack twice.
06 Feyd_Ruin :: "The Obzedeck"
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate
3-3 Rats win on the play and loose on the draw, as Feyd said, though it took me a while to make my peace with it.
07 bateleur :: "Cheatyface"
Arcane Denial / Inkwell Leviathan / Volrath's Shapeshifter
3-3 I run him over with rats on the play, he counters my only action on the draw.
08 cruelshy :: ""
Constant Mists / Helix Pinnacle / Mana Drain
6-0 Annihilator gets there.
1a mountain
1b forest, helix pinnacle (20/0 - 20)
2a swamp, pack rat
2b island, pass
3a swamp, dicard ulamog for a rat, attack, eot 2 counters (18/2-20)
3b island, pass
4a swamp, discard ulamog for a rat, attack, eot 3 counters (12/5-20)
4b forest, pass
5a swamp, discard ulamog for a rat, attack (constant mists with buyback), eot 2 counters (12/7-20)
5b forest, pass
loop until turn 11
6 (12/9-20)
7 (10/11-20)
8 (12/13-20)
9 (12/15-20)
10 (12/17-20)
at end of turn 10 board looks like
forest forest island island pinnacle with 17 counters vs: mountain, 10 swamps, and 9 rats
11a cast ulamog, targeting a rat, rat dies, (mana drain ulamog), ulamog shuffles, attack (constant mists with buyback) (12/17-20), 8 rats
11b forest, pass
12a attack with 8 rats (constant mist with buyback), cast ulamog targeting a rat, eot 2 counters on helix (12/19-20)
12b forest, pass
13a attack with ulamog - how does annihilator 4 work in this format? If he must sac pinnacle, I at least get a draw. If he may ignore it because he has 4 lands, I loose. If he has to sac 4 of his 5 permanents, I'll win a turn or two later.
Your play
1a island
1b mountain
2a island
2b swamp,
3a forest, pinnacle
3b swamp, rat (mana drain), then firestorm you, discarding ulamog (eot 3 counters on pinnacle) (19/3-20)
after 3, the board is island island forest, pinnacle vs mountain swamp swamp with ulamog and rats in the deck (for the rest of the game if I keep discarding i will get 1 card per turn)
4a forest, pass
4b draw ulamog, swamp (eot 4 counters on pinnacle) (19/7-20)
5a forest, pass
5b draw rats, swamp, cast rasts, make rat with ulamog, shuffle (eot 5 counters on pinnacle) (19/12-20)
6a forest, pass
6b swamp, make 3rd rat, attack with 2 rats (eot 6 counters) (15/18-20)
7a forest, pass
7b swamp, 4th rat, attack with 3 rats (eot 7 counters) (3/25-20)
now we go into a similar loop as above, since he must start fogging, and has 6 lands left over for helix)
8 (3/31-20) 5 rats
9 (3/37-20) 6 rats
10 (3/43-20) 7 rats
11 I cast ulamog, killing a rat, but no counterspell this time, and again it comes down to how annihilator 4 works.
09 plopfill :: ""
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
0-6 a 4/4 on turn 5ish plus path holds off rats long enough for 7 angels on turn 9 to do me in.
10 DragonDart :: ""
Beacon of Destruction / Pithing Needle / Syncopate
0-6 Pithing Needle trumps rats.
11 aurorasparrow :: ""
Arcane Denial / Ensnaring Bridge / Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4-1 Ok, I've probably got this race wrong, but I think I win on the play and draw on the draw. On the play, I get rat on turn 2, they get bigger than 3/3 before Valakut comes online, and then turn 11 I cast ulamog, destroying the bridge, and attack for lethal. On the draw, I cannot cast rats, but I can cast Ulamog just before Valakut kills me, destroying Valakut, but I'm never able to attack because of bridge.
Edit: Got them all done.
A couple of trick plays gained me points.
0-0-0-3-0-x-6-6-0-0-6 | 20
My non-0s:
4: On my play, I vindicate before he makes a token. Then shuffle and vindicate each time he drops. Obz drops and races Ulamog's cost. On my draw, he gets a token first, which overtakes me.
7: Whenever he casts Shapeshifter, I can vindicate. So he holds to cast and ditch. When he does this, I serene remembrence and then vindicate. So he holds to cast Arcane Denial too. He drops, ditches. On my turn, I serene. If he arcanes, then Shapeshifter is an 0/1. .. If he arcanes my Obzedat, I can shuffle him up, then shuffle and vindicate his guy. Obzedat races.
8: Reshuffle from drain, vindicate mists, swing race.
11: Obzedat outraces valakut.
No longer staff here.
This one isn't quite that simple because if I wait until I have 5 lands in a main phase, I can float 5 mana, cast the rat, and make a token before I give you priority to cast vindicate, then we race, and sometimes I can win. There are several lines of play that involve you possibly vindicating my land on turn 3/4 to make that take a long time to start, and I haven't had time to figure out if you can cut me off from all race-winning options - I'll think more when I get home from work tonight.
I do agree that I can always win the race when I am on the play.
Can't Vindicate lands this week.
Well, that should make this easier to figure out - now I just have to work out the turn 5, 2 rats line. Thanks!
Ok, please help me with
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre (on the draw)
vs
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate (on the play)
Turns 1-4 are dull as paste
Turn 5 he casts Obzedat, blinks it and I make 2 rats (one is a token) (22-18)
Turn 6 he vindicates one of my rats, drains me for 2, attacks, shuffles, and blinks (24-11), then i get to make 2 rats, attack with the old one (21-11) and shuffle
Turn 7 he drains me (23-9), draws remembrance, and he must decide to attack in or not. I'm pretty sure if he does not attack I will win in a few turns because of too many rats, and if he does attack I must double block, loosing 2 rats down to 1. Then on my turn I make one more rat ... and now I'm getting lost in the branches. Sorry.
10 DragonDart
Beacon of Destruction / Pithing Needle / Syncopate
0 | 1 6 6 6 0 6 0 2 6 X 0 | 33
1-4
Arcane Denial / Mistveil Plains / Raise the Alarm
Pithing Needle always prevents Mistveil Plains from working. On the play, I can threaten to Syncopate Raise the Alarm before he can cast it. If he waits and counters the Syncopate, Beacon of Destruction races faster than his tokens. If I ever try to cast Beacon proactively, he can arcane denial, and I can't stop him. So it's a draw.
On the draw, he casts Raise the Alarm before I can stop them, and Denial keeps my Beacon at bay.
vs. 02 knobbodi
6-0
Deceiver Exarch / Splinter Twin / Swan Song
Needle voids the Twin. If he casts Swan Song, the token I get outraces his lone Exarch. If he doesn't, I have a recurring Beacon.
vs. 03 WhammWhamme
6-0
Sanctum Gargoyle / Time Vault / Voltaic Key
Needle + Beacon
vs. 04 MyNameIsFourteen
6-0
Firestorm / Pack Rat / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Needle on Pack Rat. Beacon wins.
05 tomsloger
0-6
Izzet Charm / Shrieking Affliction / Wistful Thinking
Charm's counter mode prevents me from Syncopating Wistful Thinking.
06 Feyd_Ruin
6-0
Obzedat, Ghost Council / Serene Remembrance / Vindicate
Syncopate exiles Obzedat.
07 bateleur
0-6
Arcane Denial / Inkwell Leviathan / Volrath's Shapeshifter
What bat said.
08 cruelshy
2-2
Constant Mists / Helix Pinnacle / Mana Drain
Needle stops Helix in its tracks. Mana Drain stops Beacon in its.
09 plopfill
6-0
Entreat the Angels / Path to Exile / Serene Remembrance
Syncooate exiles Entreat.
11 aurorasparrow
0-6
Arcane Denial / Ensnaring Bridge / Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Denial stops me from using Beacon. I die a slow, horrible death by volcano.
In either case, what I've learned here was that firestorm was a pretty poor choice for a 3rd card. Mogg always told me my decks were too narrow and too underpowered, and it seems I've not learned.
Thanks guys!
EDIT: once I realized the 'vindicate with rememberance on the stack' trick, my ability to compete on the draw against obzedat is highly compromised. I'm now sold that it is a split.
11 vs 02: knobbodi can't stop bridge or Valakut. 6-0
11 vs 03: I can't stop infinite turns, but I can always counter Gargoyle. 2-2
11 vs 04: I trust his judgment. 1-4
11 vs 05: tomsloger can empty my hand on turn 5, which kills me faster than Valakut kills him. 0-6
11 vs 06: 0-6 no question.
11 vs 07: Protected Bridge. 6-0
11 vs 08: Valakut outraces Pinnacle. 6-0
11 vs 09: He can't stop bridge or Valakut. 6-0
11 vs 10: He never has enough mana to Syncopate when I arcane Denial his Beacon. 6-0
11 | 0 6 2 1 0 0 6 6 6 6 6 | 39
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Here's the relevant rule:
"If a spell or ability controlled by an opponent of the controller of a noncreature basic land that has no abilities except mana abilities would cause another permanent controlled by the controller of that land to be moved to another zone, and if that land could be moved to that zone if these rules were not in effect, then that land's controller may choose to move that land to that zone instead."
In other words - where sacrifice is concerned - pretend this week's rules don't exist, except that you can't force lands to be sacrificed. For example, if an opponent controlled four basic lands and one nonland permanent, that player could choose to sacrifice the four basic lands to avoid sacrificing the nonland permanent. If that player chose to sacrifice the nonland permanent, he or she wouldn't have to sacrifice any basic lands.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
As always, correct me if I've made a mistake or haven't seen a line of play.
vs Reyemile: HA, totally forgot how Mistveil Plains works
0-6
vs knobbodi: He can't interact with me due to safe land rule
6-0
vs WhammeWhamme: Like bateleur, I need a judge on this one. If he can only take a finite number of turns, Helix Pinnacle eventually gets enough counters on it.
6-0
vs MyNameIsFourteen: Didn't even bothering figuring out how annihilator interacts with the safe land rule because he can just loop Firestorm forever and ever.
0-6
vs tomsloger: "Mana drain counters wistful thinking, even with izzet charm backup because you'll have the extra 2 to pay for it. Then you hold helix pinnacle so affliction doesn't kill you, until you cast it on turn 100+, and win on your next upkeep. 6-0 in your favor."
6-0
vs Feyd_Ruin: I counter the Obzedat when he can first play it, he can replay it again on turn 7, and he drains me to death when Helix Pinnacle has like 90 counters on it.
0-6
vs bateleur: Combat damage will never kill me.
6-0
vs plopfill: Combat damage will never kill me.
6-0
vs DragonDart: Pithing Needle breaks the helix; Mana Drain puts out the Beacon. We spend the next 1000 turns staring into space.
2-2
vs aurorasparrow: Molten Pinnacle > Helix Pinnacle
0-6
Mana drain counters wistful thinking, even with izzet charm backup because you'll have the extra 2 to pay for it. Then you hold helix pinnacle so affliction doesn't kill you, until you cast it on turn 100+, and win on your next upkeep. 6-0 in your favor.
Also, against Reyemile, like he said, recurring arcane denial stops constant mists. 0-6
Maybe this format just hasn't been played much, but I think I'm going to embarrass myself with the gauntlet I've cooked up so far and I'd love to find some giant soldiers to stand on.
A little forum search later and I have exactly what I wanted. Thank you.
Also also, one thing to keep in mind when you're looking through those archives: When I ran Modern 5CB, you could win or make the opponent discard on your 2nd turn, not your 3rd turn.
Click on the link to the XCB Repository in my signature. Scroll down and open the spoiler labeled "5CB". Open the subspoiler labeled "5CB Modern".
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy