DiviFilius is a perfect example of why I've been absent from Mafia for the past 3 years, and why I'm very much considering retiring once I die tonight. It seems the complete lack of forethought, random bull*****, and refusal to use logical analysis or reasoning in favor of gut reads and mindlessly following a random thing you think you've stumbled upon has grown even more stifling since I've been away and I don't see any reason to assume it'll change.
June, July and August is the scum team. That people insist on fixating on people like Az, or, or Proph for perceived slights goes to show how gullible you people are.
I feel no reason to keep posting. Do what you will.
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DiviFilius is a perfect example of why I've been absent from Mafia for the past 3 years, and why I'm very much considering retiring once I die tonight. It seems the complete lack of forethought, random bull*****, and refusal to use logical analysis or reasoning in favor of gut reads and mindlessly following a random thing you think you've stumbled upon has grown even more stifling since I've been away and I don't see any reason to assume it'll change.
June, July and August is the scum team. That people insist on fixating on people like Az, or, or Proph for perceived slights goes to show how gullible you people are.
I feel no reason to keep posting. Do what you will.
Awww, don't let yourself get so grumpy, Charm. There's always been one or two new players who needs some teaching in the mix, but they're never the majority.
DiviFilius is a perfect example of why I've been absent from Mafia for the past 3 years, and why I'm very much considering retiring once I die tonight. It seems the complete lack of forethought, random bull*****, and refusal to use logical analysis or reasoning in favor of gut reads and mindlessly following a random thing you think you've stumbled upon has grown even more stifling since I've been away and I don't see any reason to assume it'll change.
June, July and August is the scum team. That people insist on fixating on people like Az, or, or Proph for perceived slights goes to show how gullible you people are.
I feel no reason to keep posting. Do what you will.
Gut reads are just a fancy way of saying you don't know what it is that you think is scummy, but you find something about it scummy, dammit.
As you get more experienced, you learn to identify exactly what it is you think you see, and learn when it's something worth paying attention to, and when it's not.
While I'm at it, why do you object to Iso naming Juunn or Divi?
I do not trust Iso yet. I don't like that he is asking for "permission" to do something. That seems completely out of character for him. I would be happier with someone like you or Seppel or Feb naming people tomorrow.
June, July and August is the scum team. That people insist on fixating on people like Az, or, or Proph for perceived slights goes to show how gullible you people are.
I mean, summer of scum has a good ring to it. That's about the only positive thing I can say about this theory.
More importantly, has Proph been revealed? I don't remember seeing anyone definitely say (or even hint, besides Iso) who Proph is. If so, how do you know who Proph is?
scum1 clearin scum2, and then self-meta
should of given me that double vote. wed have dead scum by now
When you say these things, I imagine you sitting on a porch with nothing but denim suspenders on, chewing on a toothpick, petting your pet raccoons Jeebers and Spook, sending the june bugs and daddy long legs camping out on your collection of abandoned vehicles to meet their maker with a pellet gun. It's a good look for you.
@Huntz: But Seppel and I both believe Iso is town. Seppel goes so far as to say Iso is confirmed, which Iso agrees with and I don't question.
So...what are you seeing that still makes you mistrust Iso in the face of at least 2 out of 3 of your town reads trusting him? Asking permission doesn't seem strong enough to counter that.
I feel like Wheat sort of overreacted to being named but that his ability is town.
I don't think Arch would have adopted the posting style he has as scum.
Azrael's early exchanges seem townie, so I like him a little bit for that.
I am leaning town on Jobie due to the way he is pushing his information.
Seppel's posting style amuses me but is very easy to hide behind, so I am wary.
Iso's content is pretty lackluster, but I get the feeling that he's having trouble communicating his ideas through his posting style. More on him when he's outed.
I have a null read on Huntzilla. I am still trying to get a handle on his play style and I have only seen him as an anti-town Neutral once over his handful of times as town and 0 as scum.
I have no read on Necarg.
I have no read on Gentleman Johnny.
Proph's style feels weird. I understand that the minimalism in his posting is to help keep his identity safe but with his early play I just have to . His push on a particular scum read of his seems based in sound theory, though I have seen this read perform some of these actions before as town. I would advise you to turn your sights elsewhere for the time being, Proph.
I don't feel very good about Charm. His early pushes seem fabricated. However, this also means I am likely wrong about one of my scum reads, so I will have to re-analyze after a couple of flip.
DCIII is highly questionable. His early play skeeves me out a bit and I have seen no improvement since.
Vote Febbre
His first "read" on me feels like he is hedging his bets. When is Iso not sure on a player?
The underlined is to highlight his tomfoolery. He was purposefully being deceptive. That's pretty scummy.
I think I'm coming around on being fine with a Huntzilla lynch, eventually, but I want to see March hang, first.
Here is his next "read" on me. Again, hedging... No conviction. This equals bull***** for a player like Iso. Confidence IS HIS WHOLE SHTICK.
But there are some reasons why he might be choosing to do it this way this game.
The main thing I am focusing on is the fact that Sep and you are cool with him.
But that doesn't mean I am going to right him off as 100% cleared.
Side note... I did find this little inconsistency when rereading...
Hunt-112, For the vote on Jan, you are quite townish, but imo the jan brock vote is tad weak, considering all the other stuff thats been going on in the previous 143 or so posts.
Dec/March... If I was to quote, every post That I disagree with of both of you, I'd be able to right a 7 part novel... One of you is probably scumbuddehs with Septimica_Itis (even if Septemicia isn't Scum, I still think one of you are) I specifically Don't like how you guys quickly voted Jan in that short time frame, it feel Opportunistic...
What are you getting at with the bolded section? How does a weak vote equal "townish" to you?
While I'm at it, why do you object to Iso naming Juunn or Divi?
I do not trust Iso yet. I don't like that he is asking for "permission" to do something. That seems completely out of character for him. I would be happier with someone like you or Seppel or Feb naming people tomorrow.
I didn't ask permission. I was asking if anyone else had a reason to name them over myself.
@Huntz: But Seppel and I both believe Iso is town. Seppel goes so far as to say Iso is confirmed, which Iso agrees with and I don't question.
So...what are you seeing that still makes you mistrust Iso in the face of at least 2 out of 3 of your town reads trusting him? Asking permission doesn't seem strong enough to counter that.
I think Hunt's panicking that I've PoE'd the game down to him and his buddies. I'm sensing that survivalist mindset from Full Deck creeping in.
Also, Hunt, why would me not instantly outing myself with my T/S list be even remotely scummy?
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Hey guys, so........... I'm bulletproof for a period of time whenever I successfully name someone. Charm may be covering for Az or he may actually be able to give out that role (I think that's more likely), but there's no way he's a Doc too. Time to lynch him, please!
I think when Kool designed this game, he had a much different conception of how the naming mechanic would work than the rest of us. I think he either expected the town to be strategic and sparing of its use of names, or he expected us to have more of a struggle to figure out who is who.
There are only a finite number of namings available to the town, which in effect gives us only a finite number of useful abilities to deploy. Apparently, we've already used up 1/3 of those charges on day 1, and who knows whether or not we maximized those uses due to the chaotic, undisciplined nature of those namings.
A conditional bulletproof is strictly worse than the ability I was given. You can't protect any of the town's other targets. Your ability is temporary, and reliant on getting a name on the night in question. That makes it several orders of magnitude less useful than mine - to the point where I'd argue that naming people to activate your ability would have been a net negative to the town, by depleting our ability to use those charges to activate more impactful abilities. It's alright, but given the limited supply of namings, I wouldn't consider a bulletproof townie so uber-liciously amazing and powerful enough to say that it precludes the possibility of a doctor existing in the game.
Regardless, the town's best play is still to let the scum deal with me and/or Charm. We're not long for this world, with the ability I claimed. Save yourselves a lynch and let me/us die to the night-kill.
It's like you're waving your hand and making people bend to your will, I don't understand how you're doing it. Look at your bolded language, you're theorizing about why a Doc can exist along with my role when you should know that it exists because it's your role. You're accepting my role as fact and arguing the possibility of your role as opposed to knowing your role is real and considering the possibility of mine. It's because you're thinking of this as how to convince an audience and it's not conveying your own reality. I admire your pluck, Az, but this is getting ridiculous - you're clearly trying to diffuse and extend.
DiviFilius is a perfect example of why I've been absent from Mafia for the past 3 years, and why I'm very much considering retiring once I die tonight. It seems the complete lack of forethought, random bull*****, and refusal to use logical analysis or reasoning in favor of gut reads and mindlessly following a random thing you think you've stumbled upon has grown even more stifling since I've been away and I don't see any reason to assume it'll change.
June, July and August is the scum team. That people insist on fixating on people like Az, or, or Proph for perceived slights goes to show how gullible you people are.
I feel no reason to keep posting. Do what you will.
Did you edit someone out of the middle of those ors? What is the perceived slight that people are fixating on from Azrael?
P.S. I hope you aren't serious about retiring again - you should definitely keep playing.
It's like you're waving your hand and making people bend to your will, I don't understand how you're doing it. Look at your bolded language, you're theorizing about why a Doc can exist along with my role when you should know that it exists because it's your role. You're accepting my role as fact and arguing the possibility of your role as opposed to knowing your role is real and considering the possibility of mine. It's because you're thinking of this as how to convince an audience and it's not conveying your own reality. I admire your pluck, Az, but this is getting ridiculous - you're clearly trying to diffuse and extend.
It usually doesn't do the town much good for me to simply declare - "but I AM the doctor! For reals!" I generally try to avoid that in mafia. Second, I didn't say "if, hypothetically, I were the doctor, then I could theoretically exist!" I addressed YOUR argument. I said that *I* wouldn't *say* that your role precludes the possiblity of my role existing.
Okay, I'm dropping this post restriction because it's interfering with my ability to play the game and I don't want to stab myself with a fork every time I make a post. (FTR, I was roleplaying fank009 from the first Championships game)
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Quote from Az »
I hated this post the first time on reread through, because the portion of Sept's posts that he calls a fence-sit, isn't a fence-sit. He's not wavering awkwardly between two possibilities, he' saying "I see x, therefore y or z is true." Scum will frequently resort to "carding" other players for technical violations of traditional scum tells, regardless of whether those technical violations really have any meaningful connection to alignment.
In the same post, oct pull outs the technical carding technique a second time with calling out Sept merely for being the first player to mention the word "neutrals"
Fair enough for your first point, but your second point is false. I've noticed that mentioning neutrals often leads to scum in many cases in my games (such as Taredas in Gatecrash) and it was a large part as to why I intially scumread Charm for that post. It's not techical carding.
Quote from Az »
An FOS for not responding to someone's questions is scummy? This is another ridiculous technical foul. Pointing out that you don't appreciate someone's failure to respond to another person's question is a textbook appropriate way to use a FOS. It's a minor factor that should be pointed out, but it falls far short of deserving a vote.
Oct is simply looking for ways to ding Charm as much as possible here.
Of course I wanted to "ding Charm as much as possible" - at the time, I thought he was scum and should have been lynched. And once again using an FoS instead of a vote is another common scumtell. You're applying your own playstyle onto other player's actions - even if /you/ think that's an appropriate way to use an FoS, in my mind, using an FoS instead of pressuring another player with a vote implies that you're being non-committal.
Quote from Az »
Every time? Hardly fair.
Oct's declaring sept to be the best lynch on a series of four completely meaningless party fouls.
Please tell me how "mentioning neutrals" and "FoSing without a vote" are completely meaningless. Those are scummy actions and I will lynch someone appropriately for doing them.
Fair enough on the fencesitting thing, and as for the "scumread is reasonable" thing, townies will usually defend themselves from attacks because they know they're town. Thinking that someone scumreading you is "reasonable" implies that you know you've been playing like scum, and it's a bit self aware in that aspect.
Quote from Az »
Opportunistic scum linking attempt, deftly done at that.
How is this opportunistic? When I thought that Charm was scum and you made that post I thought that you were testing the waters to see if your buddy's lynch would go through.
Quote from Az »
Interesting vote switch to Yu here, and asking for a reason not to vote for him is not usual for a townie. Townies generally vote people because they think they're scum, and then give the reasons why, and when they DO use their vote as more of a motivational tool, they usually will tell you what activity they want you to correct (such as giving reads, lurking less, etc.).
This reads more like Oct is seeking to vote for Yu without bruising Yu's feelings and creating friction. He asks permission, in a manner of speaking, to case Yu. Indicates probable Yu lurker-town, Oct scum.
First, tell me why would I as scum hop off of Charm and your lynch and then heavily defend both of you. Charm's claim post felt townie and Necarg's post was a terrible bandwagon vote to make Charm claim.
As for the vote rationale thing, I simply copy and pasted one of the person I was roleplaying as (fank)'s posts. I can link you to the post in question if you'd like.
Quote from Az »
Definitely getting the feeling that Oct has learned that the way into many townies' hearts is to call them townie publicly. He's tossing out easy town-reads here on half the town with very little explanation. Then, he moves on to pivot to the bandwagon du jour, without any explanation of why he finds the wagon to be the "best lynch". Which in itself, is a telling wording pattern he's used twice now. It's not that he thinks Sept or I are scummy, we're simply the "best lynch". Scum like this wording, since it allows them to avoid looking stupid or overly aggresive for being wrong when the lynch goes bad. Like it was just a bad bet. Probability.
Oct is scum. Look at his language patterns, look at his opportunistic wagon choices, his political cultivation of the most vocal members of the town, look at the way he cased Sept, and failed to give solid reason on me, but was succesful in originating or contributing pressure to both the town's major mislynch prospects today.
I've been calling a ton of people townie because I'm working on solving the game and a ton of people were obvtowning themselves quite early in the game. Since I had a (self-imposed) posting restriction, it was one of my main ways to contribute (same with the little reasoning, I can go more in-depth right now if you'd wish). I've also provided reasoning as to why I thought you were scum (admittedly it was scant). Like, I have a feeling that you're twisting every post I make to fit a conclusion that "I'm scum" - when you go into a PBPA thinking a player is scum, you'll come out of it even more sure of it.
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@Charm - are you willing to band together on lynching Necarg?
@Iso - Are we doing this song and dance again? If Necarg given you any reason to think he's town, why aren't you voting him?
@Decerberate - Do you have any reasoning as to why you think I'm scum? All you've said is "I'm interested in an Oct wagon".
Febbre's claim I feel solidifies him as town, but it's really weird having both roles in the game. I'm inclined to believe it though because scum granting a bodyguard ability just as a fakeclaim feels unlikely to me, and Charm/Az both being scum would be an extremely risky gambit (also, I think Charm is town). I don't think Febbre is right given how badly he misread him in Gatecrash D1.
Quote from Hunt »
What are you getting at with the bolded section? How does a weak vote equal "townish" to you?
I didn't think you were right re: Iso. This is also a fault of the posting restriction.
It's like you're waving your hand and making people bend to your will, I don't understand how you're doing it. Look at your bolded language, you're theorizing about why a Doc can exist along with my role when you should know that it exists because it's your role. You're accepting my role as fact and arguing the possibility of your role as opposed to knowing your role is real and considering the possibility of mine. It's because you're thinking of this as how to convince an audience and it's not conveying your own reality. I admire your pluck, Az, but this is getting ridiculous - you're clearly trying to diffuse and extend.
It usually doesn't do the town much good for me to simply declare - "but I AM the doctor! For reals!" I generally try to avoid that in mafia. Second, I didn't say "if, hypothetically, I were the doctor, then I could theoretically exist!" I addressed YOUR argument. I said that *I* wouldn't *say* that your role precludes the possiblity of my role existing.
EBWDTP: Because that's never backfired on you before when someone else did that...
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Okay, I'm dropping this post restriction because it's interfering with my ability to play the game and I don't want to stab myself with a fork every time I post.
@Iso - Are we doing this song and dance again? If Necarg given you any reason to think he's town, why aren't you voting him?
Read as "*****, I'm getting run up"
Also, with regards to where my vote is, why wouldn't I be voting someone I think is scum over someone I don't have a scum read on?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Did you edit someone out of the middle of those ors? What is the perceived slight that people are fixating on from Azrael?
P.S. I hope you aren't serious about retiring again - you should definitely keep playing.
I just derped. It was supposed me read "Azrael, or me, or Proph" And the perceived slight is "since Az is sticking up for me, and I'm scum, it clearly must be a scum gambit and they both need to hang"
@Charm - are you willing to band together on lynching Necarg?
If I knew who he was, maybe.
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Gut reads are just a fancy way of saying you don't know what it is that you think is scummy, but you find something about it scummy, dammit.
As you get more experienced, you learn to identify exactly what it is you think you see, and learn when it's something worth paying attention to, and when it's not.
lolno
says im goin on gut reads then calls me scum
scum cant go on gut reads cuz scum dont have reads
means hes lyin. and u tryin to cover for him
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I missed your question. Sure, he was voicing mistrust, but now that he's on my hit list, he's dropped into Full Metal Panic.
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@Seppel: Since I'm confirmed town, I'll probably be killed early, but you might see some weirdness regarding my Innocent Child clause in my ability when I flip. As in, it won't be listed. Just a heads-up.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I missed your question. Sure, he was voicing mistrust, but now that he's on my hit list, he's dropped into Full Metal Panic.
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@Seppel: Since I'm confirmed town, I'll probably be killed early, but you might see some weirdness regarding my Innocent Child clause in my ability when I flip. As in, it won't be listed. Just a heads-up.
You never know. I might have lied about my ability.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
lolno
says im goin on gut reads then calls me scum
scum cant go on gut reads cuz scum dont have reads
means hes lyin. and u tryin to cover for him
Do you honestly expect people to pay any attention to your reads when you post like an 11 year old arguing on 4chan? Because I'm close to auto-hiding your posts because of it.
@Charm: Did you answer the question about why you think you know who Proph is?
I don't think I did, and it's mostly just guesswork - but he's been in the game for a while and there's only two un-named people that seem to express the kind of experience he'd have. One of the two was incorrectly guessed as the only other I'd consider, so it's mostly PoE.
@Seppel: Since I'm confirmed town, I'll probably be killed early, but you might see some weirdness regarding my Innocent Child clause in my ability when I flip. As in, it won't be listed. Just a heads-up.
Wait, is this a claim? what's up with that?
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I'm using the sort of reasoning where you actually examine what someone is saying instead of getting pissy about the way he says it, unlike you and Nero.
His last post shows critical thinking and therefore a willingness to solve the game that you just don't see in scum. In fact, all of the people I'm reading as scum right now have the trait of being unwilling to solve the game.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
His last post shows critical thinking and therefore a willingness to solve the game that you just don't see in scum. In fact, all of the people I'm reading as scum right now have the trait of being unwilling to solve the game.
It's an attempt. If you're suggesting it's a valid point, I'd simply ask you to consider how often scum hide behind gut reads, which probably makes Charm's meaning a bit more clear.
Need to evaluate:
ApricornLover Huntzilla
Decerebrate
Juunn
YuLying2Me
OctopusToes
Start with Charm. He says Divi is everything that is wrong about mafia, and then lists a lot of things that would make Divi bad town, rather than scum; lack of forethought is townie, random bull***** is null, gut reads are townie, following something you "think" you found implies that that person believes what they are saying and are therefore town. Therefore, if Charm believes all that, he can't really believe that Divi is scum, and yet he says so anyway.
Next, Divi points this out in far fewer words.
You show up next in 456, and your words indicate that you believe Divi is town too. I got busted as scum once by MandersHex for trying to "teach" Arnnaria who I knew was town, and you're doing the same thing here. In addition, you strongly state that Divi believes he sees something scummy; if he was scum, he wouldn't believe it, it would be feigned, and therefore if you're so certain he believes it then he has to be town.
Divi's 478 then makes that observation, and made me pretty certain he's town.
So, yeah, I'm calling it a valid point because it is. Plus, Divi isn't even hiding behind gut reads in the first place.
You and Charm are attempting to discredit Divi at every turn right now, rather than actually finding things about him that are alignment determining. Why's that? Because you know he's town, you know he's on to you both, and yet you feel like maybe you can spin him into a mislynch because he talks funny. But it's hard, because he hasn't done anything scummy; you have to make things up instead.
Start with Charm. He says Divi is everything that is wrong about mafia, and then lists a lot of things that would make Divi bad town, rather than scum; lack of forethought is townie, random bull***** is null, gut reads are townie, following something you "think" you found implies that that person believes what they are saying and are therefore town. Therefore, if Charm believes all that, he can't really believe that Divi is scum, and yet he says so anyway.
Next, Divi points this out in far fewer words.
You show up next in 456, and your words indicate that you believe Divi is town too. I got busted as scum once by MandersHex for trying to "teach" Arnnaria who I knew was town, and you're doing the same thing here. In addition, you strongly state that Divi believes he sees something scummy; if he was scum, he wouldn't believe it, it would be feigned, and therefore if you're so certain he believes it then he has to be town.
Divi's 478 then makes that observation, and made me pretty certain he's town[card].
So, yeah, I'm calling it a valid point because it is. Plus, Divi isn't even hiding behind gut reads in the first place.
You and Charm are attempting to discredit Divi at every turn right now, rather than actually finding things about him that are alignment determining. Why's that? Because you know he's town, you know he's on[/card] to you both, and yet you feel like maybe you can spin him into a mislynch because he talks funny. But it's hard, because he hasn't done anything scummy; you have to make things up instead.
1. Divi isn't on my read-for-possible-scum list which I JUST posted. He's one of the less likely scum prospects, unless he's faking this entire posting style, which seems awfully unlikely to me. If you can't even pay close enough attention to tell what my scum reads are when I post them publicly, how on earth do you think you've paid enough attention to detail to figure out my alignment accurately?
2. I'm in teaching mode pretty much every game I play. A tell for you once is not a tell for everyone, in every circumstance.
3. Townies do what Charm is doing all the time. They criticize people for anti-town actions, or argumentation tells, in the belief that the player is being SO BAD that it must be an act. They're usually wrong, 99 times out of 100, but people do it all the time anyways.
What you ought to be looking at in Charm's reaction is emotional genuineness, the lack of artificiality in his response. Charm's genuinely disgusted with what he perceives as bad play from Divi, to the point he doesn't even want to play mafia here anymore. Now what should THAT be telling you?
You need to reevaluate your reads, badly. Reading Charm as town this game is one of the simplest possible townie reads you could ask for, and you're botching it.
And I'm lost again. Where exactly did he confirm you as town? I'm biting my tongue in not suggesting anything shady, but I haven't seen anything other than him just making a post or two supporting you - which in and of itself is nothing.
Start with Charm. He says Divi is everything that is wrong about mafia, and then lists a lot of things that would make Divi bad town, rather than scum; lack of forethought is townie, random bull***** is null, gut reads are townie, following something you "think" you found implies that that person believes what they are saying and are therefore town. Therefore, if Charm believes all that, he can't really believe that Divi is scum, and yet he says so anyway.
Next, Divi points this out in far fewer words.
Bad town can be exponentially more damaging to the town's chances of winning than a good mafioso ever could - I should know. There are situations where even a probable townie should be lynched just because he's doing more harm than good. I think he's likely scum, but if he turns up town it's still a net positive in my book because we don't need to deal with him.
You show up next in 456, and your words indicate that you believe Divi is town too. I got busted as scum once by MandersHex for trying to "teach" Arnnaria who I knew was town, and you're doing the same thing here. In addition, you strongly state that Divi believes he sees something scummy; if he was scum, he wouldn't believe it, it would be feigned, and therefore if you're so certain he believes it then he has to be town.
Divi's 478 then makes that observation, and made me pretty certain he's town.
Coaching can be a tell, sure. But it's ******* AZRAEL. He damn near INVENTED mafia on the site. Like he said in 494, he ends up being teacher in every game he plays just because he's been around so long.
So, yeah, I'm calling it a valid point because it is. Plus, Divi isn't even hiding behind gut reads in the first place.
You and Charm are attempting to discredit Divi at every turn right now, rather than actually finding things about him that are alignment determining. Why's that? Because you know he's town, you know he's on to you both, and yet you feel like maybe you can spin him into a mislynch because he talks funny. But it's hard, because he hasn't done anything scummy; you have to make things up instead.
if *****posting like what he's done has become behavior that is at all beneficial to the town, then this game is already over before it started. He posts tiny sentences and has no rationalization to back it up or explain why he thinks what he does. That you're so empathetically supporting him makes me incredibly suspicious of your intentions as well.
He should hang for being a nuisance. If he flips scum that's just a bonus.
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1. Divi isn't on my read-for-possible-scum list which I JUST posted. He's one of the less likely scum prospects, unless he's faking this entire posting style, which seems awfully unlikely to me. If you can't even pay close enough attention to tell what my scum reads are when I post them publicly, how on earth do you think you've paid enough attention to detail to figure out my alignment accurately?
I figured that your list of people to read didn't include previous reads. Do you really not have any scumreads right now?
I was judging by your reactions to Divi that you thought he was scum; it certainly seemed that way. I'm evaluating a bunch of people at once so I missed that you didn't have a read on him, sorry for not tunneling I guess?
In any case, this only lends strength to the fact that you're discrediting Divi; why would you make those Nero posts if you didn't even think he was scum?
What you ought to be looking at in Charm's reaction is emotional genuineness, the lack of artificiality in his response. Charm's genuinely disgusted with what he perceives as bad play from Divi, to the point he doesn't even want to play mafia here anymore. Now what should THAT be telling you?
I read it as though he's disgusted that Divi's playing really badly from his pov and yet Charm's the one in trouble of being lynched. I think such a mindset could come from either alignment. Yes, even to the point of not wanting to play mafia here anymore.
You need to reevaluate your reads, badly. Reading Charm as town this game is one of the simplest possible townie reads you could ask for, and you're botching it.
I've got a mountain saying he's scum, and I haven't even seen so much as an anthill saying he's town that hasn't been immediately kicked over with simple reasoning.
And I'm lost again. Where exactly did he confirm you as town? I'm biting my tongue in not suggesting anything shady, but I haven't seen anything other than him just making a post or two supporting you - which in and of itself is nothing.
Bad town can be exponentially more damaging to the town's chances of winning than a good mafioso ever could - I should know. There are situations where even a probable townie should be lynched just because he's doing more harm than good. I think he's likely scum, but if he turns up town it's still a net positive in my book because we don't need to deal with him.
How is Divi ruining the town's chances of winning??
In any case, this only lends strength to the fact that you're discrediting Divi; why would you make those Nero posts if you didn't even think he was scum?
I believe he may see the light one day. But not if nobody points him the right direction.
Quote from WG »
I read it as though he's disgusted that Divi's playing really badly from his pov and yet Charm's the one in trouble of being lynched. I think such a mindset could come from either alignment. Yes, even to the point of not wanting to play mafia here anymore.
Scum don't get frustrated with town for playing badly, unless it's the caught for wrong reasons tell. Charm didn't get angry at the point he was caught, and Divi wasn't the one who caught him. Charm's been annoyed by his lack of effort and contribution, and by his superficial reasoning. Now which alignment is that likely to tick off? The one which thrives off bad townie play, or the
one that depends on strong teammates for a win?
The gamestate has stalled out and the deadline is approaching. We really need to decide on a lynch.
@Febbre, Wheat - We're not lynching Charm OR Azrael Today. Pick someone else to lynch - re-evaluate the gamestate as if both of them were confirmed town. What changes?
Wheat's posts in particular look like he's ramming against a brick wall.
[quote from="Wheat_Grinder »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/617101-true-name-mafia-day-1-masks-under-cowls?comment=394"]Iso is confirmed, Seppel, Oct, and Feb are very likely town, Juunn and Dec are somewhat likely town.
June, July and August is the scum team. That people insist on fixating on people like Az, or, or Proph for perceived slights goes to show how gullible you people are.
I feel no reason to keep posting. Do what you will.
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Awww, don't let yourself get so grumpy, Charm. There's always been one or two new players who needs some teaching in the mix, but they're never the majority.
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>gut reads
>scum
u dont believe this.
Neither will you, if you play for long enough.
Gut reads are just a fancy way of saying you don't know what it is that you think is scummy, but you find something about it scummy, dammit.
As you get more experienced, you learn to identify exactly what it is you think you see, and learn when it's something worth paying attention to, and when it's not.
I do not trust Iso yet. I don't like that he is asking for "permission" to do something. That seems completely out of character for him. I would be happier with someone like you or Seppel or Feb naming people tomorrow.
I wish it did, but it doesn't.
I mean, summer of scum has a good ring to it. That's about the only positive thing I can say about this theory.
More importantly, has Proph been revealed? I don't remember seeing anyone definitely say (or even hint, besides Iso) who Proph is. If so, how do you know who Proph is?
Racial slur...
So...what are you seeing that still makes you mistrust Iso in the face of at least 2 out of 3 of your town reads trusting him? Asking permission doesn't seem strong enough to counter that.
His first "read" on me feels like he is hedging his bets. When is Iso not sure on a player?
The underlined is to highlight his tomfoolery. He was purposefully being deceptive. That's pretty scummy.
Here is his next "read" on me. Again, hedging... No conviction. This equals bull***** for a player like Iso. Confidence IS HIS WHOLE SHTICK.
But there are some reasons why he might be choosing to do it this way this game.
The main thing I am focusing on is the fact that Sep and you are cool with him.
But that doesn't mean I am going to right him off as 100% cleared.
Side note... I did find this little inconsistency when rereading...
What are you getting at with the bolded section? How does a weak vote equal "townish" to you?
I didn't ask permission. I was asking if anyone else had a reason to name them over myself.
I think Hunt's panicking that I've PoE'd the game down to him and his buddies. I'm sensing that survivalist mindset from Full Deck creeping in.
Also, Hunt, why would me not instantly outing myself with my T/S list be even remotely scummy?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Iso: Wasn't Huntz mistrusting you earlier too? If so your reasoning doesn't really make sense.
UGH... "write" him off... WRITE... not right... why have you forsaken me, brain!?!?!
Panicking? With the way you have been so disastrously wrong lately I don't think any scum would panic. lol
Who is the scum team to you again Iso?
Just tell me one more time... Please
Outing yourself isn't scummy in a vacuum. Outing yourself to create an advantage for your scum buddies would be scummy.
It's like you're waving your hand and making people bend to your will, I don't understand how you're doing it. Look at your bolded language, you're theorizing about why a Doc can exist along with my role when you should know that it exists because it's your role. You're accepting my role as fact and arguing the possibility of your role as opposed to knowing your role is real and considering the possibility of mine. It's because you're thinking of this as how to convince an audience and it's not conveying your own reality. I admire your pluck, Az, but this is getting ridiculous - you're clearly trying to diffuse and extend.
------
Did you edit someone out of the middle of those ors? What is the perceived slight that people are fixating on from Azrael?
P.S. I hope you aren't serious about retiring again - you should definitely keep playing.
It usually doesn't do the town much good for me to simply declare - "but I AM the doctor! For reals!" I generally try to avoid that in mafia. Second, I didn't say "if, hypothetically, I were the doctor, then I could theoretically exist!" I addressed YOUR argument. I said that *I* wouldn't *say* that your role precludes the possiblity of my role existing.
---
Fair enough for your first point, but your second point is false. I've noticed that mentioning neutrals often leads to scum in many cases in my games (such as Taredas in Gatecrash) and it was a large part as to why I intially scumread Charm for that post. It's not techical carding.
Of course I wanted to "ding Charm as much as possible" - at the time, I thought he was scum and should have been lynched. And once again using an FoS instead of a vote is another common scumtell. You're applying your own playstyle onto other player's actions - even if /you/ think that's an appropriate way to use an FoS, in my mind, using an FoS instead of pressuring another player with a vote implies that you're being non-committal.
Please tell me how "mentioning neutrals" and "FoSing without a vote" are completely meaningless. Those are scummy actions and I will lynch someone appropriately for doing them.
Fair enough on the fencesitting thing, and as for the "scumread is reasonable" thing, townies will usually defend themselves from attacks because they know they're town. Thinking that someone scumreading you is "reasonable" implies that you know you've been playing like scum, and it's a bit self aware in that aspect.
How is this opportunistic? When I thought that Charm was scum and you made that post I thought that you were testing the waters to see if your buddy's lynch would go through.
First, tell me why would I as scum hop off of Charm and your lynch and then heavily defend both of you. Charm's claim post felt townie and Necarg's post was a terrible bandwagon vote to make Charm claim.
As for the vote rationale thing, I simply copy and pasted one of the person I was roleplaying as (fank)'s posts. I can link you to the post in question if you'd like.
I've been calling a ton of people townie because I'm working on solving the game and a ton of people were obvtowning themselves quite early in the game. Since I had a (self-imposed) posting restriction, it was one of my main ways to contribute (same with the little reasoning, I can go more in-depth right now if you'd wish). I've also provided reasoning as to why I thought you were scum (admittedly it was scant). Like, I have a feeling that you're twisting every post I make to fit a conclusion that "I'm scum" - when you go into a PBPA thinking a player is scum, you'll come out of it even more sure of it.
-----
@Charm - are you willing to band together on lynching Necarg?
@Iso - Are we doing this song and dance again? If Necarg given you any reason to think he's town, why aren't you voting him?
@Decerberate - Do you have any reasoning as to why you think I'm scum? All you've said is "I'm interested in an Oct wagon".
Febbre's claim I feel solidifies him as town, but it's really weird having both roles in the game. I'm inclined to believe it though because scum granting a bodyguard ability just as a fakeclaim feels unlikely to me, and Charm/Az both being scum would be an extremely risky gambit (also, I think Charm is town). I don't think Febbre is right given how badly he misread him in Gatecrash D1.
I didn't think you were right re: Iso. This is also a fault of the posting restriction.
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If you want to know what my reads are, then re-read my posts.
Also, what you said about outing myself doesn't make any sense, given the context of my question. Try again.
And what, praytell, have I been disastrously wrong about, ever?
Barring Monster Island Mafia, of course.
Read as "*****, I'm getting run up"
Also, with regards to where my vote is, why wouldn't I be voting someone I think is scum over someone I don't have a scum read on?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I just derped. It was supposed me read "Azrael, or me, or Proph" And the perceived slight is "since Az is sticking up for me, and I'm scum, it clearly must be a scum gambit and they both need to hang"
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You don't think Necarg has done anything scummy or townie?
He's a newb.
town
It comes complete with the special ability to show up dead in the next 1-2 night phases?
lolno
says im goin on gut reads then calls me scum
scum cant go on gut reads cuz scum dont have reads
means hes lyin. and u tryin to cover for him
@Oct: We're not talking about Necarg, right now. We're talking about you.
@Charm: Did you answer the question about why you think you know who Proph is?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
*hands you another toothpick*
i would like an answer
you play so beautifully, nero
you play so beautifully, nero
I missed your question. Sure, he was voicing mistrust, but now that he's on my hit list, he's dropped into Full Metal Panic.
-
@Seppel: Since I'm confirmed town, I'll probably be killed early, but you might see some weirdness regarding my Innocent Child clause in my ability when I flip. As in, it won't be listed. Just a heads-up.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You never know. I might have lied about my ability.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Do you honestly expect people to pay any attention to your reads when you post like an 11 year old arguing on 4chan? Because I'm close to auto-hiding your posts because of it.
What the hell kind of reasoning are you using to clear him?
I don't think I did, and it's mostly just guesswork - but he's been in the game for a while and there's only two un-named people that seem to express the kind of experience he'd have. One of the two was incorrectly guessed as the only other I'd consider, so it's mostly PoE.
Wait, is this a claim? what's up with that?
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His last post shows critical thinking and therefore a willingness to solve the game that you just don't see in scum. In fact, all of the people I'm reading as scum right now have the trait of being unwilling to solve the game.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It's an attempt. If you're suggesting it's a valid point, I'd simply ask you to consider how often scum hide behind gut reads, which probably makes Charm's meaning a bit more clear.
Need to evaluate:
ApricornLover Huntzilla
Decerebrate
Juunn
YuLying2Me
OctopusToes
Start with Charm. He says Divi is everything that is wrong about mafia, and then lists a lot of things that would make Divi bad town, rather than scum; lack of forethought is townie, random bull***** is null, gut reads are townie, following something you "think" you found implies that that person believes what they are saying and are therefore town. Therefore, if Charm believes all that, he can't really believe that Divi is scum, and yet he says so anyway.
Next, Divi points this out in far fewer words.
You show up next in 456, and your words indicate that you believe Divi is town too. I got busted as scum once by MandersHex for trying to "teach" Arnnaria who I knew was town, and you're doing the same thing here. In addition, you strongly state that Divi believes he sees something scummy; if he was scum, he wouldn't believe it, it would be feigned, and therefore if you're so certain he believes it then he has to be town.
Divi's 478 then makes that observation, and made me pretty certain he's town.
So, yeah, I'm calling it a valid point because it is. Plus, Divi isn't even hiding behind gut reads in the first place.
You and Charm are attempting to discredit Divi at every turn right now, rather than actually finding things about him that are alignment determining. Why's that? Because you know he's town, you know he's on to you both, and yet you feel like maybe you can spin him into a mislynch because he talks funny. But it's hard, because he hasn't done anything scummy; you have to make things up instead.
1. Divi isn't on my read-for-possible-scum list which I JUST posted. He's one of the less likely scum prospects, unless he's faking this entire posting style, which seems awfully unlikely to me. If you can't even pay close enough attention to tell what my scum reads are when I post them publicly, how on earth do you think you've paid enough attention to detail to figure out my alignment accurately?
2. I'm in teaching mode pretty much every game I play. A tell for you once is not a tell for everyone, in every circumstance.
3. Townies do what Charm is doing all the time. They criticize people for anti-town actions, or argumentation tells, in the belief that the player is being SO BAD that it must be an act. They're usually wrong, 99 times out of 100, but people do it all the time anyways.
What you ought to be looking at in Charm's reaction is emotional genuineness, the lack of artificiality in his response. Charm's genuinely disgusted with what he perceives as bad play from Divi, to the point he doesn't even want to play mafia here anymore. Now what should THAT be telling you?
You need to reevaluate your reads, badly. Reading Charm as town this game is one of the simplest possible townie reads you could ask for, and you're botching it.
And I'm lost again. Where exactly did he confirm you as town? I'm biting my tongue in not suggesting anything shady, but I haven't seen anything other than him just making a post or two supporting you - which in and of itself is nothing.
Bad town can be exponentially more damaging to the town's chances of winning than a good mafioso ever could - I should know. There are situations where even a probable townie should be lynched just because he's doing more harm than good. I think he's likely scum, but if he turns up town it's still a net positive in my book because we don't need to deal with him.
Coaching can be a tell, sure. But it's ******* AZRAEL. He damn near INVENTED mafia on the site. Like he said in 494, he ends up being teacher in every game he plays just because he's been around so long.
if *****posting like what he's done has become behavior that is at all beneficial to the town, then this game is already over before it started. He posts tiny sentences and has no rationalization to back it up or explain why he thinks what he does. That you're so empathetically supporting him makes me incredibly suspicious of your intentions as well.
He should hang for being a nuisance. If he flips scum that's just a bonus.
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I figured that your list of people to read didn't include previous reads. Do you really not have any scumreads right now?
I was judging by your reactions to Divi that you thought he was scum; it certainly seemed that way. I'm evaluating a bunch of people at once so I missed that you didn't have a read on him, sorry for not tunneling I guess?
In any case, this only lends strength to the fact that you're discrediting Divi; why would you make those Nero posts if you didn't even think he was scum?
Eh, sure, I'll believe this. Point rescinded.
I read it as though he's disgusted that Divi's playing really badly from his pov and yet Charm's the one in trouble of being lynched. I think such a mindset could come from either alignment. Yes, even to the point of not wanting to play mafia here anymore.
I've got a mountain saying he's scum, and I haven't even seen so much as an anthill saying he's town that hasn't been immediately kicked over with simple reasoning.
Try post 374.
How is Divi ruining the town's chances of winning??
I could re-read your posts, or you could simply through up a T/S list or something of that ilk.
I do not follow the question in that case... Contextualize it for me, please?
I am mainly thinking of the Wall. You were terribly wrong in that game... Until Seppel called it before he died.
I believe he may see the light one day. But not if nobody points him the right direction.
Scum don't get frustrated with town for playing badly, unless it's the caught for wrong reasons tell. Charm didn't get angry at the point he was caught, and Divi wasn't the one who caught him. Charm's been annoyed by his lack of effort and contribution, and by his superficial reasoning. Now which alignment is that likely to tick off? The one which thrives off bad townie play, or the
one that depends on strong teammates for a win?
---
The gamestate has stalled out and the deadline is approaching. We really need to decide on a lynch.
@Febbre, Wheat - We're not lynching Charm OR Azrael Today. Pick someone else to lynch - re-evaluate the gamestate as if both of them were confirmed town. What changes?
Wheat's posts in particular look like he's ramming against a brick wall.
I'll look to see if I can case Necarg tomorrow.
I'll probably go with Follow the Iso if Charm doesn't get enough momentum, which will most likely result in one of those three anyway.
to now:
?