MTG Salvation

Quote from Iso »

Everyone should gangbang Proph with me.

So wrong... so... very.... wrong....

Gungnir.

Got word back from Seppel, not allowed to claim ability name yet.

I just realized that level 3 might only allow me to claim the name of the ability. I'll be pretty damned unhappy if that's the case. Level 2 allowed me to claim these two more things though so it's gotta be two more (name and function) next time right?

right?

Quote from Iso »

Everyone should gangbang Proph with me. I'll probably case him within a week from now if I find the time/motivation.

But really, you all should sheep me and save me the effort.

but huntz

and for that matter, Cythare

i almost referenced puzzle and dragons because of gungnir but sepi would probably try to say it's crypto ***** even though it's not

thanks sepi

you're ruining my snappy comebacks

i bet you still use resolve teams too

don't tase my orochi, bro

I'm not really concerned about Huntz at this point in time.

Why does Proph concern you more

You flatter yourself to much WG, first of all i have never played P&D, i know about the game a bit but never played it myself since i dont really enjoy match 3 type games, so i would have likely not even taken notice of it.

As for your snappy comebacks... if they are so easily ruined they arent very snappy.

Dont get the "resolve team" bit, im assuming its again a P&D thing but nope dont get it...

Serious question tho: So you had no restriction with regards to talking about Haste but the other ability has you under embargo until you level it up?

@Bur: Who did you haste? Would that person get a notification of being hasted?

Quote from Iso »

@Relm: Doesn't that mean that we'll get more flips at once, though? That means we have a whole chockful of analysis to do all at once instead of questioning what direction to go. I don't care who we attack at what frequency as long as they're people I'm scumreading. You're overvaluing flips - as long as we have multiple bodies at once, sure, we might hurt some townies, but whatever. I'm a tank and my damage will start adding up as I level. I'm confident in my analysis. The question is, why aren't you?

I've been casing Proph piece by piece since yesterDay.

Firstly, flips are the information to gauge the direction we're heading and the ability to re-evaluate the game and course correct. Your analysis that we can make that assessment all at once feels way off. By then, a bunch of people are lower in health so once the flips to start coming more people are weaker overall. We whittle away each other's health while scum target people they want and by the time flips start happening now the situation is much more dire with regard to how easily everyone can be killed.

I have no idea how you can think that's a good idea.

I also have no idea how you think Proph is scum right now. He's far more confident and he's interacting in the moment rather than picking his places and laboring over what he's going to say. He's fluid with the game which scum Proph isn't and he's showing almost no caution which scum Proph does. He never plays like this as scum and I feel like you should know that.

I'd like to hear your case on Proph

I'd like to hear why you thought you should attack Proph when you did after you held off on Bur due to a potential information role

And I'd like you to elaborate more on what benefit you saw in "spreading the love" from attacking Cythare last Night vs. wanting to attack Bur Today compared to your approach toward Proph now.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

no, you know what, I've been down this tunnel before

DCIII has got to be town

When did you go down this tunnel with me before and what made you conclude I'm Town now?

Quote from KoolKoal »

DCIII: That plan is closest to what we did in eeveelution and it didn't work. People bickered about who attacked where in the order and everyone against the wagon refused to attack. Do you have any ideas for those problems?

I don't really, other than to assess what people are saying at the time when it happens and to evaluate them at the time - still better than scatter shooting if most people are on board. The attack order I wouldn't think would be a huge deal since HP isn't public but is also a discussion that could help give information.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

I don't want you to justify your Proph attack, because it's null!Iso, but can you step back and tell me how unilateral attacks at the drop of a hat help us?

The bolded seems like a weird thing to go out of your way to clarify. Why wouldn't you want Iso to justify his attack? How better to read something you find null than to get them to explain it? It's like you're pre-emptively telling him not to justify himself when, what harm could come from him doing so?

----------

@Chris - Walk me through the benefit of having role information out in the public right now like, what are you hoping to gain from that? I feel like scum benefit a lot more from the information at this point.

Quote from Sepiriel »

You flatter yourself to much WG, first of all i have never played P&D, i know about the game a bit but never played it myself since i dont really enjoy match 3 type games, so i would have likely not even taken notice of it.

That's why you would have thought it was crypto

As for your snappy comebacks... if they are so easily ruined they arent very snappy.

Your mom isn't very snappy

Dont get the "resolve team" bit, im assuming its again a P&D thing but nope dont get it...

it's a team that can take down advanced dungeons that other teams of the same quality can't, but at the cost of taking about 20x longer to do so

Serious question tho: So you had no restriction with regards to talking about Haste but the other ability has you under embargo until you level it up?

Yep

Quote from DCIII »

When did you go down this tunnel with me before and what made you conclude I'm Town now?

not you, other townies in games past (I think the only time I've played with you I caught you townslipping in your first post )

first example off the top of my head was me burrowing deeper and deeper into town!EtR in Chimes over an inconsistency I saw in one post -- I kept wording my questions and attacks on him to find evidence to fit my conclusion that he was scum. TMCT played town the same way he played scum; building a story in his head and posting to play the story out; I'm trying to avoid that (also the reason I've been more active here than in any game I've played here, by far)

since that "dichotomy" business was the only reason I had to think you're scum, I'm back to null, maybe leaning town, on you

The bolded seems like a weird thing to go out of your way to clarify. Why wouldn't you want Iso to justify his attack? How better to read something you find null than to get them to explain it? It's like you're pre-emptively telling him not to justify himself when, what harm could come from him doing so?

Iso attacked Proph because Proph is arbitrarily close to 100% scum in his mind. that's what he honestly believes if he's town, and that's what he would say as scum (cf. his "it's a step closer to a scum flip" comment last page) -- I know Iso well enough that I don't need to ask that

I'm interested in how he thinks it's helpful to the town, especially since I have a town lean on him in the first place. I also want him to consolidate his Proph case, because I'm not seeing it

@Time Mages
no one with Haste should paraphrase exactly how it works; if we do massclaim, and there are no Mafia Hasters, it may still be an ace up the sleeve

Quote from Wheat_Grinder »

Why does Proph concern you more

Because I can pretty much guarantee Proph is scum, whereas I have no such read on Huntzilla.

-

@DCIII: Relm pretty much covered it (thank you for not making me have to explain something that shoud be painfully obvious, btw - I do appreciate it), and as I said, I might case Proph within the next week or so.

I don't read Proph as very confident or fluid at all, right now. Up until his " " to me just now, he's been abdolutely paralyzed insofar as interacting with me meaningfully has gone. And that feign of an attempt at townie emotion came entirely too late to be a genuine reaction.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

@Time Mages
no one with Haste should paraphrase exactly how it works; if we do massclaim, and there are no Mafia Hasters, it may still be an ace up the sleeve

Too late since WG already explained it when he told people he hasted Chris.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

@Time Mages
no one with Haste should paraphrase exactly how it works; if we do massclaim, and there are no Mafia Hasters, it may still be an ace up the sleeve

Sorry bro

Quote from Iso »

Quote from Wheat_Grinder »

Why does Proph concern you more

I don't read Proph as very confident or fluid at all, right now. Up until his " " to me just now, he's been abdolutely paralyzed insofar as interacting with me meaningfully has gone. And that feign of an attempt at townie emotion came entirely too late to be a genuine reaction.

I reserve the right to update this post in two hours, but I have not gotten this impression from him at all so far.

@Sir Chris: Happily. I am a Black Mage. My ability name is Meteor. The effect of it is what one would expect from a Black Mage.


@Iso: From your desire that others attack Proph, does that mean you still think it is preferable to gang up people and kill them quickly rather than allow for gradual accumulation? How would you feel about the Town's chances if people did not flat-out sheep you and just attacked who they thought was most scummy?



Some thoughts on Scum roles: In normal Mafia, the power level of the scum as a group is the same no matter how many members are remaining. They get one kill a night. In this game, it seems likely that the scum's power level as a group decreases if members die. A disadvantage to waiting a long time and allowing deaths to gradually accumulate is that we might be missing out on an opportunity to lessen the Mafia's mechanical killing ability early in the game.

What if the scum have the overall power to kill at least one person a night, but have the ability to spread out their attacks just like we do? I think what scum would most want is to spread out as much damage as possible before actually giving someone the axe so that the town is denied information.

Does anyone believe themselves to have been targeted by Scum last night?

^ see this is a townproph post

1. clearly believes he is town
2. actually standing up to somebody who is scumreading him
3. using bad arguments and expecting us to believe them

all of the elements are there.

hey cc

what are your reads on the following players:

Cythare
Proph
KK
Me
chemtrails

and why?

@Dante
your spec that the mafia's NK is a grapeshot is something I've started considering (piece of information I got this Morning jives with that)

it's a weird design choice since it doubles down on the no-early-game-flips quirk of the setup, though

@Meg
your town!Proph argument is selling me more than Iso's scum!Proph argument

his alignment should be clearer after his reread and follow-up to the reread

I've decided I don't want to reread. But I'm here now and engaged. Ask me things. I will answer.

Also @relm I just want to clarify your response to my earlier question. I did have a reason for asking if you knew what I did to you.

@Everyone
I want you all to indulge me for a post: could you list out the players you either want to attack or see lynched, and distribute 10 points among the list based on the strength of your conviction? no more than 6 points for any one player, please.

for me, Cythare pending:

Killjoy: 5
Cantripmancer: 2
Sepiriel: 1
Bur: 1
Huntzilla: 1

you're not implicitly endorsing any coordinated attack plan by posting the list; just do this. if enough people go for it I'm going to keep the results compiled

Quote from Megiddo »

I've decided I don't want to reread. But I'm here now and engaged. Ask me things. I will answer.

nobody is going to want to reread after Today

I'm starting to look at the game state from a ZDS frame of mind; we could have 2k posts before our first flip and this game is going to be a slog to reread that wears us to the bone in later Days

Also @relm I just want to clarify your response to my earlier question. I did have a reason for asking if you knew what I did to you.

'kay

Quote from Megiddo »

Quote from Iso »

Quote from Wheat_Grinder »

Why does Proph concern you more

I don't read Proph as very confident or fluid at all, right now. Up until his " " to me just now, he's been absolutely paralyzed insofar as interacting with me meaningfully has gone. And that feign of an attempt at townie emotion came entirely too late to be a genuine reaction.

I reserve the right to update this post in two hours, but I have not gotten this impression from him at all so far.

Are we reading the same game, then?

Quote from DanteRossetti »

@Iso: From your desire that others attack Proph, does that mean you still think it is preferable to gang up people and kill them quickly rather than allow for gradual accumulation? How would you feel about the Town's chances if people did not flat-out sheep you and just attacked who they thought was most scummy?

I've already stated that I don't care how people attack as long as they're killing people I'm scumreading.

Quote from Prophylaxis »

@Iso: I'm not really interested in interacting with you right now. Maybe more so once I reread and get more involved in this game, but as of now you're hitting me for pitiful damage and if other players start attacking me then I can obvtown myself at the drop of a hat (heck, I've already done so, you're either scum who wants to get rid of me or town who has their blinders on). I have no idea why you're so bent on killing me when you know that post count is the most accurate way to read me and you've made poor attempts to actually point out why you think I'm scum (do you really expect me to respond to a "hm"?). I don't like to use "you should know this!" arguments as they don't work most of the time, but you're painfully wrong this game with regards to my alignment.

You haven't obvtowned yourself in the slightest. I've already addressed the point regarding your postcount; did you choose to ignore it? I'm bent on killing you because you're scum - that should be obvious. The tone in this post reads all like an entirely false bravado and your exaggerated descriptors belie your claimed intent.

Quote from Megiddo »

^ see this is a townproph post

1. clearly believes he is town
2. actually standing up to somebody who is scumreading him
3. using bad arguments and expecting us to believe them

all of the elements are there.

1. That's not clear to me at all. It looks like he mustered up enough courage to talk back but it doesn't look like he believes it at all. Tell me how you get that impression from his post.
2. Now that he's been called out and the spotlight is on him, he knows he has to or he's going to die.
3. I can't remember the last time townProph made an intentionally bad argument.

Since when do you misread Pr-

oh.

I get it.

You're his buddy.

Good to know.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

@Everyone
I want you all to indulge me for a post: could you list out the players you either want to attack or see lynched, and distribute 10 points among the list based on the strength of your conviction? no more than 6 points for any one player, please.

Proph - 3
Bur - 3
hans - 3
Cythare - 1

Those are weighted, btw.

1. That's not clear to me at all. It looks like he mustered up enough courage to talk back but it doesn't look like he believes it at all. Tell me how you get that impression from his post.
2. Now that he's been called out and the spotlight is on him, he knows he has to or he's going to die.
3. I can't remember the last time townProph made an intentionally bad argument.

I definitely used bad phrasing earlier. He doesn't try to make bad arguments. He just makes bad arguments. There are two points that I consider "bad" here. First is that his post is just a giant self-meta post. It's in keeping with proph's attitudes as town to present that argument unironically and assume we will be convinced. Second is his assertion that he's obvtown, which is an obviously bad defense to the person who's trying to convince us to lynch him.

what you are missing though is that proph always sound artificial regardless of alignment. You cannot look at his posts and say "this looks fake" to determine his alignment. Look at the mindset behind what he's doing rather than the language he is expressing it through.

I have also seen this false-looking bravado before, which I've scumread him for in the past... but it turns out that this is just how he does bravado. It doesn't come naturally to him, so it looks really awfully fake when he tries to look tough.

Proph's strength is in being logical and analytical. When he steps out of that comfort zone he inevitably ends up looking fake.

Like I said earlier literally just keep waiting. If his posting rate drops off (especially under pressure) then I'll gladly reverse my view and attack Proph with you. It is that easy.

So, in sum:

1. This is how proph always sounds and it's not an alignment tell.
2. I think this is a towntell. Keep an eye out for lurking.
3. I misspoke earlier, see above for my explanation.

I am very interested to see your full Proph case though.

Also what was your point regarding his postcount?

---

@relm I think I'm at
5 cythare
5 wheat

but this is without rereading.

I can't even think of how to spend all 10 points right now

BE: 5 (assuming he doesn't just get modkilled)
Killjoy: 2
Wheat: 1

Rhand replaces Chemtrails!

...huh.

thoughts, Megiddo?

Catching up asap but will take me a few days.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

...huh.

thoughts, Megiddo?

on chemtrails? I think he was just overwhelmed. he barely wanted to play the game at all.

Quote from Rhand »

Catching up asap but will take me a few days.

we're going to cruise through this game now

Quote from Megiddo »

on chemtrails? I think he was just overwhelmed. he barely wanted to play the game at all.

mhm

he was unreadable to me, so I'm looking forward to Rhand

I'm a Dancer and my night ability is an attack. I attacked Bur.

Yeah, I was shocked when chem joined in the first place.

mods: Is pizza still being replaced?

Huntz: 4
Cythare: 3
Sepiriel: 3

Not really looking anywhere else right now. I might look into Proph but I sorta just want to be lazy and wait for Iso's case instead.

Pizza is still being replaced, though he let me know that he would continue playing until a replacement was found. Chemtrails requested replacement out of the blue, so in an effort to keep the game moving, I replaced Chemtrails first.

Quote from Cythare »

I'm a Dancer and my night ability is an attack. I attacked Bur.

Whats the name of your ability?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Relm:
Pizza: 3
Hunger: 3
Cythare 2
Huntz: 1
WG: 1

Quote from Prophylaxis »

Quote from Cythare »

I'm a Dancer and my night ability is an attack. I attacked Bur.

Why did you feel the need to claim this?

Have you read the game yet?

I saw a few other people claiming things.

No, I have not.

So here are the claims we know of so far:

Chris White Mage - Protect [No paraphrase given] #950
Iso Fighter - Double Cleave [Night Attack based on ATK] #952
WG Time Mage - Secret Ability (I cant recall when he specifically started this one), Haste [Double SPD of target] #989
Bur Time Mage - Haste #1008 [Bur stated he had no such 'secret skill']
Dante Black Mage - Meteor [No description, same as Chris] #1020
Cythare Dancer - ???? [Night attack] #1036

From these I am currently suspecting Iso, WG and Cythare.

Reasons:
Iso - I have not found his ability anywhere in relation to FF, so far everyone's ability has appeared in FF but iso's 'Double Cleave' is nowhere to be seen.
WG - The fact another Time Mage is saying he doesnt have the 'secret ability', caveat here is that the other mage is Bur
Cythare - Mostly because he didnt give a name.

-----------------------------------
New Preference list

WG: 2
Cythare 2
Iso: 2
Huntz: 1
Pizza: 1
Hunger: 1

Is there a massclaim going on?

Quote from Rhand »

Is there a massclaim going on?

Not an approved one per say.

Iso and Chris started talking and then revealing some stuff and some people are following it some arent.

EBWOP: Relm also wanted us to make a list of our attack preferences and distribute up to 10 points on them based on degree of preference (6 points was his preferred player cap)

Quote from Rhand »

Is there a massclaim going on?

No, don't claim

Hm ok. might mean there is scum in Iso/Chris then. Scum likes to start things like tha when they are confident in a claim. It's something I would expect from a scum!Iso for sure.

@Iso: what did you spend your sp on?

I don't trust the time mages. Either of them.

Unvote: Vote: Iso

Quote from Iso »

Quote from Wheat_Grinder »

Why does Proph concern you more

Because I can pretty much guarantee Proph is scum, whereas I have no such read on Huntzilla.

-

@DCIII: Relm pretty much covered it (thank you for not making me have to explain something that shoud be painfully obvious, btw - I do appreciate it), and as I said, I might case Proph within the next week or so.

I don't read Proph as very confident or fluid at all, right now. Up until his " " to me just now, he's been abdolutely paralyzed insofar as interacting with me meaningfully has gone. And that feign of an attempt at townie emotion came entirely too late to be a genuine reaction.

Relm didn't cover it, though. Relm said that you attacked Proph because you were close to 100% certain that he was scum and that's what you'd say either way. That defers to Relm and is effectively snarky trying to say how obvious your stance is, but it doesn't get at the heart of what I was asking and my questions were pretty clear. I asked what benefit did you see in spreading the love between Cythare and Bur and then to compare that with your approach to Proph Today. You were making a case earlier about the advantages about everyone flipping closer together, you were confident on Cythare and Bur being scum so you wanted to attack both, now you're scum reading Proph and you're bypassing Bur (who you listed as the same weight as Proph in your weight list below) and you want everyone to attack him rather than spreading the love. Your mindset is disconnected and I think you're catering it to what stance is convenient for you to take. I also asked why you felt the need to attack Proph when you did when you were waiting to attack Bur because of a possible investigative role - several people haven't posted yet.

And there was also an implied question that you ignored where I challenged your opinion that flips didn't matter too much and it was fine if everyone started flipping at once.

On top of that, you came into this game saying that you were having trouble getting people to listen to you. Now, you're playing in such a way that's basically "I'm going to do what I want because, Iso," - but certainly not a way that inspires confidence to listen to what you're saying because you aren't listening to vote discussions, you're pushing a mass claim and claiming prior to people agreeing, you're intentionally doing things against the grain. Given the amount of self-awareness that you have about your play style, I have a hard time believing that you were wrestling with issues of people not listening to you (which I do believe) and this is how you'd choose to play as Town. It feels a lot like you're intentionally playing reckless as a front, knowing that people are unlikely to listen to you but that you can pass of your behavior as Iso.

Also, I'm reading your responses to Meg Re: Proph and am thinking WTH regarding Proph and I don't think we're reading the same game and it feels entirely like you're reaching regarding Proph - like the him not reacting to the "hm." post and the comment about him having false bravado. We've both played enough games with Proph together where I've seen you key in on the right types of things regarding Proph, and I've seen you have insightful comments to Proph about his play - and this feels like it's completely forced.

Quote from Iso »

Quote from Megiddo »

Quote from Iso »

Quote from Wheat_Grinder »

Why does Proph concern you more

I don't read Proph as very confident or fluid at all, right now. Up until his " " to me just now, he's been absolutely paralyzed insofar as interacting with me meaningfully has gone. And that feign of an attempt at townie emotion came entirely too late to be a genuine reaction.

I reserve the right to update this post in two hours, but I have not gotten this impression from him at all so far.

Are we reading the same game, then?

Quote from DanteRossetti »

@Iso: From your desire that others attack Proph, does that mean you still think it is preferable to gang up people and kill them quickly rather than allow for gradual accumulation? How would you feel about the Town's chances if people did not flat-out sheep you and just attacked who they thought was most scummy?

I've already stated that I don't care how people attack as long as they're killing people I'm scumreading.

Quote from Prophylaxis »

@Iso: I'm not really interested in interacting with you right now. Maybe more so once I reread and get more involved in this game, but as of now you're hitting me for pitiful damage and if other players start attacking me then I can obvtown myself at the drop of a hat (heck, I've already done so, you're either scum who wants to get rid of me or town who has their blinders on). I have no idea why you're so bent on killing me when you know that post count is the most accurate way to read me and you've made poor attempts to actually point out why you think I'm scum (do you really expect me to respond to a "hm"?). I don't like to use "you should know this!" arguments as they don't work most of the time, but you're painfully wrong this game with regards to my alignment.

You haven't obvtowned yourself in the slightest. I've already addressed the point regarding your postcount; did you choose to ignore it? I'm bent on killing you because you're scum - that should be obvious. The tone in this post reads all like an entirely false bravado and your exaggerated descriptors belie your claimed intent.

Quote from Megiddo »

^ see this is a townproph post

1. clearly believes he is town
2. actually standing up to somebody who is scumreading him
3. using bad arguments and expecting us to believe them

all of the elements are there.

1. That's not clear to me at all. It looks like he mustered up enough courage to talk back but it doesn't look like he believes it at all. Tell me how you get that impression from his post.
2. Now that he's been called out and the spotlight is on him, he knows he has to or he's going to die.
3. I can't remember the last time townProph made an intentionally bad argument.

Since when do you misread Pr-

oh.

I get it.

You're his buddy.

Good to know.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

@Everyone
I want you all to indulge me for a post: could you list out the players you either want to attack or see lynched, and distribute 10 points among the list based on the strength of your conviction? no more than 6 points for any one player, please.

Proph - 3
Bur - 3
hans - 3
Cythare - 1

Those are weighted, btw.

The above touches on this too, but there's also where you call Meg Proph's scum buddy and then have no mention of him in your suspicion reads. Don't think your read on Meg was genuine at all and is more likely trying to discredit his read on Proph, which I agree with.

TL:DR - I think Iso is full of it.

---------------------

Quote from Prophylaxis »

DC: Interested in teaming up?

Quote from Prophylaxis »

@DCIII: Thoughts on us mind-melding/comparing reads once I get done with rereading this game, in a week or two? I'm fairly confident you're town and that with our analysis powers combined we can solve the game in short order.

I'm not sure how it would go any differently than it is now but ask me things - I'm your huckleberry.

Quote from RelmArrowny »

Quote from DCIII »

When did you go down this tunnel with me before and what made you conclude I'm Town now?

not you, other townies in games past (I think the only time I've played with you I caught you townslipping in your first post )

first example off the top of my head was me burrowing deeper and deeper into town!EtR in Chimes over an inconsistency I saw in one post -- I kept wording my questions and attacks on him to find evidence to fit my conclusion that he was scum. TMCT played town the same way he played scum; building a story in his head and posting to play the story out; I'm trying to avoid that (also the reason I've been more active here than in any game I've played here, by far)

since that "dichotomy" business was the only reason I had to think you're scum, I'm back to null, maybe leaning town, on you

The bolded seems like a weird thing to go out of your way to clarify. Why wouldn't you want Iso to justify his attack? How better to read something you find null than to get them to explain it? It's like you're pre-emptively telling him not to justify himself when, what harm could come from him doing so?

Iso attacked Proph because Proph is arbitrarily close to 100% scum in his mind. that's what he honestly believes if he's town, and that's what he would say as scum (cf. his "it's a step closer to a scum flip" comment last page) -- I know Iso well enough that I don't need to ask that

I'm interested in how he thinks it's helpful to the town, especially since I have a town lean on him in the first place. I also want him to consolidate his Proph case, because I'm not seeing it

Okay, but how did you go from "DCIII has got to be town" to "back to null, maybe leaning town on you"

I have a feeling deep in my bones that you're the neutral based on the way you're playing but regardless of that the above doesn't feel like an organic thought process regarding your stance on me (and I've also noticed a little flattery in your game that makes me suspicious)

-------------

Weighted list:

Iso - 5
Hans - 3
Relm - 2

I also want to hear from DK soon, including a response to my last question to him.