How does the above conclusion come from a town mindset?
How does it NOT come from a town mindset? How would a scum ever think 'this guy is trying to set up chain mislynches on me and another possible townie'? This literally makes no sense.
Nice twist of the argument. Let's try again:
I said:
Quote from Cantrip »
But you don't KNOW that WG and/or KJ are scum (if you do, it's because you're scum yourself). So you being ok with this makes no sense.
You say multiple times that this is me chaining mislynches; your last assertion of this is:
Quote from Cyan »
This feels like a complete setup to me. In my mind, I can literally see scum-you just setting up town KJ to get mislynched after I get mislynched. Like he is a bowling pin and I am the ball.
At least, that was the first thought that I had when I read this. But I could be wrong on it, and it feels like I probably am, because I'm still completely convinced that KJ is scum.
So, as far as I can tell, you're saying "Cantrip is setting WG and/or KJ up to get mislynched after getting me (Cyan) mislynched."
But my argument is that the only way you would know that KJ is scum is if you are scum.How would I be setting up KJ's mislynch with logic of "if Cyan is scum, then KJ is scum" IF YOU FIRST FLIP TOWN???
That's what I feel a town mindset would have said by way of explanation: "It originally felt like you were trying to chain mislynches by establishing KJ as scum if I were scum, but then I realized that made no sense because I'm town and my flip would completely debunk your mislynch-chaining logic". But that's not what you said. You said "But I could be wrong on it, and it feels like I probably am, because I'm still completely convinced that KJ is scum." So your logic isn't "I know I'm town, therefore (no matter what KJ's alignment), Cantrip can't be chaining mislynches based on that logic." It's "Cantrip can't be chaining mislynches because I think (not know, think) that the player he'd be chaining into is scum." In essence, you're not focusing on what should be foremost in your mind if you're town (that you are town), but that KJ is likely scum.
This is a scum mindset.
Quote from Cyan »
Your V/LA doesn't mean you don't have to answer my questions in #717. I especially want to hear how you, as town, came to the "chaining mislynches" conclusion, but also explain the WIFOM "most likely conclusion" baloney, please.
I've explained this the best that I am able to, and I am done doing so.
See above on the "chaining mislynches" concern, which, if left unaddressed, will keep my vote on you until you are lynched or until the end of the game. Regarding the "most likely conclusion" WIFOM, you basically said "This thing that I said is true is true because it's true." So let's try this one again:
So why did you leap to the conclusion that Hunt died because he called me out? That's, like, WIFOM 101.
It is the most likely conclusion based on all evidence available to us. You can't just call it WIFOM because you don't like it.
Tell me more. How is it the "most likely" conclusion?
Use things like logic and facts to demonstrate why this one possibility ("Hunt died because Hunt called scum!Cantrip out") is "most likely" as opposed to any other possible reason why Hunt died.
How does the above conclusion come from a town mindset?
How does it NOT come from a town mindset? How would a scum ever think 'this guy is trying to set up chain mislynches on me and another possible townie'? This literally makes no sense.
And in case it wasn't clear: I suspect that you are scum accusing me of chaining mislynches. Now that I've called you out on it, you're completely failing to explain your mindset. You're not scum legitimately suspecting me of chaining mislynches; you're scum who made a sloppy attack and is now flailing.
How likely is it that two players genuinely believe something so stupid as "the 2nd vote during RVS is scummy"? Yet there's Kami and Cyan slobbering and defending each other. At first I thought one of them had to be scum, but then they just kept acting scummy together until they stopped interacting with one another at all. Incredibly bizarre.
This post doesn't tell me where you stand on either of them. Do you think all this coordinated slobbering, etc. makes them more town, more scum, or...???
On a scale of 1-10 on how disingenious these questions are...
Question dodging noted. Mild use of humor to smear noted. Now answer my questions.
1. There are 7 posts between the mod announce the lynch scene at the end of D1 and ANT'S 665. You're inability to see the relevance of my comments is your own personal problem.
2. If you can't see why and when I made the decisions I did re:cyan/kami (despite you previously mentioning it and me also directing these links to your attention) then you're simply not reading the game. Like at all. I don't know why there's such a sharp contrast between your D1 analysis and your D2 analysis so far. Are you posting as a hydra account because you're like a completely different person.
1. There are 7 posts between the mod announce the lynch scene at the end of D1 and ANT'S 665. You're inability to see the relevance of my comments is your own personal problem.
Sorry, I'm an idiot.
Quote from imab »
2. If you can't see why and when I made the decisions I did re:cyan/kami (despite you previously mentioning it and me also directing these links to your attention) then you're simply not reading the game. Like at all. I don't know why there's such a sharp contrast between your D1 analysis and your D2 analysis so far. Are you posting as a hydra account because you're like a completely different person.
I understand how you previously felt about them, but that last post leaves me uncertain as to whether you still feel they're both scummy, or if the actions you highlight are making you question either read.
@CM: Can you provide an example of one of your scum games?
I haven't been scum much recently:
• Bioshock Mafia: I hydra'd with Generic, went mostly awol on him for several game Days, then took over the slot when he requested /out and got dayvigged.
• Before that, it was Return to Ravnica (I was told I did an excellent job in this game.)
• Before that, Sesame Street: Karn and I bussed each other and he came out on top, pushing my lynch D1, eventually riding it to a win.
Before that, I think you'd have to go back to early 2013...
Respond Cyan. Why are you so focused on KJ being scum when you don't "know" that, but you do "know" you're town?
Hawk, other than OOG things, what changed to make you switch to me from cyan?
Seppel is continuing to throw votes without justification, and to switch up rapidly. I don't think he actually cares who dies. Seppel is probably scum #2 behind imab.
Hawk, other than OOG things, what changed to make you switch to me from cyan?
Seppel is continuing to throw votes without justification, and to switch up rapidly. I don't think he actually cares who dies. Seppel is probably scum #2 behind imab.
Oh my goodness. No new ideas after getting back from V/LA or overnight. No evaluation of the mislynch he participated in, and his biggest scumreads are two people off the wagon. At least his scumbuddies have the self-awareness to not be so obvious.
Game read.
Hawk trying to get people to vote for ZDS without decent reasoning why was awkward. My top scum candidate.
Cyan gives me scumvibes. Which probably means he's town: he's one of those players that doesn't make his posts sound "townie" when he is town and puts effort in that when scum (I am like that too).
KJ is usually more active as town. Lean scum.
Cantrip remains a scumread. If we don't lynch Hawk, then he would be a good lynch. I'll case him in the upcoming days.
Kami lurks as both alignments. His burst of activity had a lot more body to it than when he is scum though. Leaning town.
Imab isn't afraid to step on toes. Town.
I skimmed Chris too much for a solid read. Will fix that.
I'm usually pretty good at spotting scum!Seppel. I think he's town here.
Plowshares didn't leave an impression on me. Which is worrysome. I'm going to iso him to get a decent read.
Hans seemed scummy at first and then kind of disappeared.
BF/Antny slot is town, as is BE2 most probably.
So has KJ just fled the land or what. I mean for a guy who 'needed a little time to post his thoughts' he sure hasn't posted any thoughts lately.
So because no one does it as scum, Cyan can't be doing it as scum because...?
You are the one who presented this behavior as a scum thing. It is decidedly on you to prove that your words have any sort of merit other than useless fear mongering. My counter to your argument is that well scum don't really do that. Your counter to my counter is "well who cares if scum don't do that, they COULD do it." I mean they could do anything, really. That's just a dumb stance to take and given your relative intelligence makes it seem more likely you are scum than not. Like when you are providing reasoning for things you should have something more than this for a logical thread. I asked for an example of this being a scum thing, you probably can't provide any. So your argument sucks. Like if you've never seen it done by scum before how does the argument even pop int your head as a scummy thing naturally? It shouldn't. Unnatural thought processes are the domain of scum, because they just make stuff up as they go along.
How would you expect scum!Cyan to have gone about this differently?
But more to the point, why did you choose to focus on only one part of my arguments?
I think he would have been less bold than he has been this game. Both in going after ZDS and how he has treated the pressure on him today. It is very, very bold play out of him that I haven't seen from him as scum in games I have been in. Also I feel like any alignment Cyan could have made the post you are calling into question. As scum he would fake being town, and as town he could feel as if you are manipulating things to get mislynches. You don't need to be certain of someone's alignment independently to feel as if someone is twisting the flow of the game to set up mislynches. I don't get how that post was such a huge scum red flag.
As for focusing on that specific point it was the point I felt strongest about after I read through everything you said. I find scum tends to like to focus on very broad strokes and to include everything when combating logic. I like to poke at the details because I feel that is where scum lies. Things like "Well most of my arguments are good!" are very much in the domain of scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
The only two posts I left out in this 17 day span was his vote on ZDS and his noting he was going to be absent for a couple of days.
KJ is now on his second promise of content after never giving anything for the first one and is voting someone I have a solid town read for the second time. I think I was on the right track when I voted KJ to begin with, I just didn't have the logic to back me up yet.
Promising content and then not delivering is heinous.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Currently liking plowshares, cantrip, KJ and Seppel.
I also like hunt and blind.
@Hunt,
Can you explain your plowshares vote?
I'm pretty torn on my scum reads. I think cyan is scum but I'm worried that it might just be bias because he's been scum the last few games I've played with him. If he is town then there is more upside not lynching him and just copping him.
I wish BE would talk less.
I don't really like WG posts thus far.
Ima had a strong town game the last time I played with him, but it was an imbalanced set up and he did great with his role. Not feeling that this game but it cold have more to do with the setup/role.
I don't have a lot of experience with zds. If cyan is town then I believe that ZDS is more likely scum.
I need to think more about sir chris before I have an opinion.
He also tries to direct a possible cop, which means Cyan is either town or godfather if Hawk is scum.
His scumreads (becomes important later):
Thinks Cyan is likely scum
Doesn't like WG's posts
Ties ZDS to a Cyan townflip
When conversing with WG, he doesn't pressure or interrogate him, although previously stating he doesn't like his posts:
The last game I played with him (I replaced in) we were both town. He ended up posting snippets thay would resonate my own thoughts. This has already occurred.
Next thing he votes ZDS, while previously stating he's more likely scum if Cyan is scum.
The reasoning he gives is all based on ZDS's questioning of Hawk.
He gets concerned when Chris reacts poorly to an attack by Cyan (the same Cyan he thinks is scum).
And then there is another Wheat interaction that isn't made to get to know Wheat's alignment:
So his posting style is definitely different from what I'm used to. In previous games it was still concise but I don't remember him doing as many quotes, it felt more of just natural quick responses. This can be attributed to him trying to change up his play style (which he said he was doing) or he's scum.
@KA
pick your top 3 scum and top 3 town.
He gives a reasoning to why Kami might be doing this as town but then...
I'm really bad at convincing people of my thoughts. I basically refuted him earlier on why he was posting garbo and isn't of town mind set, maybe look at that if you want some evidence.
He revotes ZDS and is on the lynch wagon.
Day 2: calls Kami town, votes Cyan without reasoning (that same Cyan yes), unvotes twice, calls Kami scum again and votes Kami.
Tl;dr: Hawk never followed up on his early Wheat scumread, calls for votes on ZDS without having a decent reason to think he's scum, waffles a lot on Cyan and Kami and never has any other meaningful interactions that could help him find scum.
It's worth pointing out that the behavior that Sir Chris is describing of KJ's is literally exactly how he acted when we were both scum in xkcd. Just go look at his posts in that game. There aren't that many of them. It is also NOT how he has acted as town in past games I have been in. This is a great wagon to be on.
Vote Count 2.2 The field of flowers was endless for all to frolic in. In the distance, a single flower glared down on all of them.
-----
Cyan (3):, Wheat_Grinder, Killjoy, Cantripmancer
imabusinessman (1): KamikazeArchon
Burning_Earth2 (0):
Plowshares (0):
Sir Chris (0):
Wheat_Grinder (0):
7hawk77 (0): Rhand
KamikazeArchon (1): 7hawk77, imabusinessman
Antny223(0): Seppel
hansanator(0): Antny223
Seppel(0):
Rhand(0):
Killjoy(2): Cyan, Plowshares, Sir Chris
Cantripmancer(0):
----
Not voting(7): Burning_earth2, hansanator
Deadline: June 12
With 14 alive, it's 8 to lynch!
Due to the mass of VLAs for the MM2 Weekend, I'm not counting from last friday til now towards the deadline.
I thought I 100% had scum with zds so I wanted to see that flip. He smeared my thought process twice for literally no reason which A. pissed me off and B. Doesnt have apparent town motivaton. Coupled that with a known good player playing badly and I thought that was the best lynch.
As far as pressuring others, I rarely pressure multiple people day 1, I usually try and find a preferred lynch and get that going. I only pressure if I need more info to make a lynch decision.
I'm familiar with him as a player. He's acting very weird compared to his normalcy.
He said he was trying to change up his posting style whch is fine but I think he's lying. His content also seems to be different then what I'm used to regardless of posting style.
In a vacuum id lynch KA but I don't particularly like imab. Problem is I think seppell is town who trusts imab. Meanwhile cyan irks me but I don't if I'm being paranoid of losing to scum cyan previously or what have you. Meanwhile wheat feels more reserved and less playfully aggressive then I'm used to amd you end up with me playing this way.
He was the second scumread after my read. I'll case him when I have time for it. His number of posts and the amount of walls will make that take some time.
Your last answer to me showed a clear town mindset: you didn't just answer my question; you went into all your main concerns. Pretty sure You're town.
No, I don't like the speed of that 180. 785 might be townposting, but I can't see it being enough to move him from top scumread to townpile in one fell swoop.
But wathever post you mean, you can't tell me you think that I called Cantrip town.
What makes you think I'm talking about Cantrip???? Clearly I'm referring to Hawk, from the fact I referenced Hawk's post and talked about the fact you shifted a read from scum to town, which is literally what you had just done with respect to Hawk.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
His Kami vote is bad: He first thinks Kami is town for the 'Glory of motherland' comment, and then he proceeds to vote him in the exact same post without adding anything like 'guess I was wrong' or something. Seems like he forgot he put Kami in his townpile and found something to jump him on.
Kami never responds to that post, and yet in his next post Cantrip switches his vote to Wheat without mentioning Kami anymore.
He then has some decent posts.
In his catch-up post (517 + 544), where he rereads the game, there is hardly any mention of Kami. Looks like he never believed Kami really was scum.
In those posts he asks loads of questions to many people that never get answered, yet he doesn't come back to them.
Later on he does give reasoning for a Kami townread, but that has nothing to do with what happened earlier.
He pressures Cyan and imab and Chris a little bit, and those questions are the only ones he does follow up on. He completely abandons all his questioning from his catch-up.
Conclusion: Cantrip is not invested in his reads and doesn't care about most of his own questions.
Because I'm pretty sure lurk!Hans is scum!Hans. I'm also wondering where BE disappeared to (oh, the hypocrisy).
I love that the king of lurkers is calling out people on lurking.
Awesome, I get a crown
In more serious news, Rhand's Cantrip case is really weak. So much so that I would bet good money he had next nothing when he moved his vote to Cantrip, and hastily put something longer together this morning after the fact.
In more serious news, Rhand's Cantrip case is really weak. So much so that I would bet good money he had next nothing when he moved his vote to Cantrip, and hastily put something longer together this morning after the fact.
More votes on Rhand please.
The only crown you get is for the ACTUAL dumbest forced attack ever. No one. Literally, no one, of ANY alignment would ever vote someone without having a reason already (outside RVS). No matter how small. It makes zero sense.
Have you even bothered to look into Cantrip's posts and see if what I say is true Antny?
Or do you disagree that people who throw out questions and then not care for the answers are often scum?
Have you even bothered to look into Cantrip's posts and see if what I say is true Antny?
Yes.
Would you like me to go over it?
Or do you disagree that people who throw out questions and then not care for the answers are often scum?
That was only part of your case, but to answer anyway, town are perfectly capable of asking questions and not following up if something else distracts them.
His Kami vote is bad: He first thinks Kami is town for the 'Glory of motherland' comment, and then he proceeds to vote him in the exact same post without adding anything like 'guess I was wrong' or something. Seems like he forgot he put Kami in his townpile and found something to jump him on.
29 doesn't actually say that Kami is town, merely that he picked up the vt crumb. It's not clear that it's a solid townread. I see the first comment in 57 as him explaning his reasoning in 29 (which I think is clear since he is responding to a direct question) and making it clear that he saw the crumb as townie. That's the entirity of Cantrip so called townread on Kami. On the other hand in the same post he says:
And I didn't say I think 2 votes is piling on, I was recounting what Cyan said. Again, that's quite obvious from what I wrote. You're misrepping everyone.
Wait, what? Let's take another look at what you said:
...and I'm pretty sure there's a misrep in there - Cyan didn't say imab's vote was bad because it was serious, he said imab's vote was bad because it was piling on after another RVS vote.
But I didn't presume to know and vote him over it, after he had already received multiple other votes in rapid succession.
So it seems to me that Cyan's talking about his (Cyan's) position, which would be the fourth vote on BE, not IMAB's position, which was only the 2nd vote. So, Kami, your statement feels like a misrep.
Which seems to explain pretty clearly why he voted for Kami. Not saying something along the lines of 'guess I was wrong' which isn't really necessary and certainly isn't alignment indicative.
Kami never responds to that post, and yet in his next post Cantrip switches his vote to Wheat without mentioning Kami anymore.
So what? Wheat was clearly a scumread in 57 and subsequent posting by Wheat made Cantrip vote him. This is the same as the last point, your attacking him for something not said which wasn't necessary to say in the first place.
He then has some decent posts.
Which I guess we'll ignore for the sake of this scumcase.
In his catch-up post (517 + 544), where he rereads the game, there is hardly any mention of Kami. Looks like he never believed Kami really was scum.
Actually he mentioned 47 in his catchup but otherwise so what? What is so scummy about having a scumread on Kami in the early game and then finding other players scummier, while not finding all his posting after not worthy of mention. Your entire case up until this point is based on the idea that town should be scumreading whichever player they lay their first vote serious vote for the rest of the Day or longer. Your experienced enough to understand that reads change. The entire, Cantrip doesn't talk about Kami enough is just a stretch because you can't find anything actually scummy in his early play to go after.
In those posts he asks loads of questions to many people that never get answered, yet he doesn't come back to them.
I don't really buy that is any sort of scumtell.
Later on he does give reasoning for a Kami townread, but that has nothing to do with what happened earlier.
Not sure what this is referring to. The main thing in Kami's early play that Cantrip points to is the breadcrumbs, and he even talked about the possibility of scum faking the crumbs, so I don't see what is really relevent here?
He pressures Cyan and imab and Chris a little bit, and those questions are the only ones he does follow up on. He completely abandons all his questioning from his catch-up.
Town pressures players. Town sometimes doesn't follow up questions (this is particularly true on catchups). I can give you theories about why, but I'm guessing you'd probably prefer Cantrip to answer this.
Conclusion: Cantrip is not invested in his reads and doesn't care about most of his own questions.
The only read you've really mentioned is the supposed lack of investment in Kami, all his other reads (Wheat, ZDs, Cyan, etc) have been ignored completely by you (which seems odd if you were really concerned with his lack of investment in reads). You also haven't made any sort of convincing case about him not answering questions, simply stated it and moved on. There are examples of Cantrip following up on some unanswered questions (757 for example) but I'm not going to spend time working out whether he is mostly letting questions going unanswered or not.
The funny thing about that tell is that it is awful.
It is an awful tell, but it's not awful to suspect someone for making it. A scum mindset absolutely has the potential to lead to it, especially a newer scum mindset. So remind me how many games you've played (with town/scum ratio, if possible)? And did any of those games discuss this tell (quotes would be nice if you can manage them)?
I used to vote people for grammar "slips", but then I realized that (many) people just make errors. Now I have grammar slips in my "minor chip against that player" category.
His vote on Hansanator is bad, given that it's a second vote piling on top of a first vote that was clearly not a serious one. Over-explanation of setup theory very early in the game. And lastly, he votes BE2 based on disagreeing with BE2 saying 'that tell is awful'. But we don't even know which tell BE2 is referring to. All in all, this feels like a surprisingly good wagon to be involved in, especially considering how early in the game we are.
I like most of this, except for that last line. You sound a little self-conscious about being on an early wagon.
Cyan probably isn't though.
He misidenties my RVS as serious on hansanator. Then he call the set-up theory an "over explanation" when it's clearly not. Lastly he claims "we" can't identify the tell BE2 is referring to when myself, BE2 and cantripmancer all recognize it. Probably more people would have recognized it too but BE2 spilled the beans.
I've read Cyan's post several times, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying he couldn't identify the tell; he was saying that he didn't presume to know what BE was talking about. That last line feels off...almost like you wish other people had made vague or outright references to knowing the tell before Cyan posted so you'd have "more" on Cyan. Slight blur on BE2 for "spilling the beans".
And I didn't say I think 2 votes is piling on, I was recounting what Cyan said. Again, that's quite obvious from what I wrote. You're misrepping everyone.
Wait, what? Let's take another look at what you said:
...and I'm pretty sure there's a misrep in there - Cyan didn't say imab's vote was bad because it was serious, he said imab's vote was bad because it was piling on after another RVS vote.
But I didn't presume to know and vote him over it, after he had already received multiple other votes in rapid succession.
So it seems to me that Cyan's talking about his (Cyan's) position, which would be the fourth vote on BE, not IMAB's position, which was only the 2nd vote. So, Kami, your statement feels like a misrep.
I said:
You say multiple times that this is me chaining mislynches; your last assertion of this is:
So, as far as I can tell, you're saying "Cantrip is setting WG and/or KJ up to get mislynched after getting me (Cyan) mislynched."
But my argument is that the only way you would know that KJ is scum is if you are scum. How would I be setting up KJ's mislynch with logic of "if Cyan is scum, then KJ is scum" IF YOU FIRST FLIP TOWN???
That's what I feel a town mindset would have said by way of explanation: "It originally felt like you were trying to chain mislynches by establishing KJ as scum if I were scum, but then I realized that made no sense because I'm town and my flip would completely debunk your mislynch-chaining logic". But that's not what you said. You said "But I could be wrong on it, and it feels like I probably am, because I'm still completely convinced that KJ is scum." So your logic isn't "I know I'm town, therefore (no matter what KJ's alignment), Cantrip can't be chaining mislynches based on that logic." It's "Cantrip can't be chaining mislynches because I think (not know, think) that the player he'd be chaining into is scum." In essence, you're not focusing on what should be foremost in your mind if you're town (that you are town), but that KJ is likely scum.
This is a scum mindset.
See above on the "chaining mislynches" concern, which, if left unaddressed, will keep my vote on you until you are lynched or until the end of the game. Regarding the "most likely conclusion" WIFOM, you basically said "This thing that I said is true is true because it's true." So let's try this one again:
Use things like logic and facts to demonstrate why this one possibility ("Hunt died because Hunt called scum!Cantrip out") is "most likely" as opposed to any other possible reason why Hunt died.
Outdated Mafia Stats
1. There are 7 posts between the mod announce the lynch scene at the end of D1 and ANT'S 665. You're inability to see the relevance of my comments is your own personal problem.
2. If you can't see why and when I made the decisions I did re:cyan/kami (despite you previously mentioning it and me also directing these links to your attention) then you're simply not reading the game. Like at all. I don't know why there's such a sharp contrast between your D1 analysis and your D2 analysis so far. Are you posting as a hydra account because you're like a completely different person.
@CM: Can you provide an example of one of your scum games?
Sorry, I'm an idiot.
I understand how you previously felt about them, but that last post leaves me uncertain as to whether you still feel they're both scummy, or if the actions you highlight are making you question either read.
I haven't been scum much recently:
• Bioshock Mafia: I hydra'd with Generic, went mostly awol on him for several game Days, then took over the slot when he requested /out and got dayvigged.
• Before that, it was Return to Ravnica (I was told I did an excellent job in this game.)
• Before that, Sesame Street: Karn and I bussed each other and he came out on top, pushing my lynch D1, eventually riding it to a win.
Before that, I think you'd have to go back to early 2013...
Respond Cyan. Why are you so focused on KJ being scum when you don't "know" that, but you do "know" you're town?
I keep thinking things like, "If Cyan is scum, Hawk is definitely town." But then I remember that Hawk is clearly town and my observation is useless.
Hawk, other than OOG things, what changed to make you switch to me from cyan?
Seppel is continuing to throw votes without justification, and to switch up rapidly. I don't think he actually cares who dies. Seppel is probably scum #2 behind imab.
Oh my goodness. No new ideas after getting back from V/LA or overnight. No evaluation of the mislynch he participated in, and his biggest scumreads are two people off the wagon. At least his scumbuddies have the self-awareness to not be so obvious.
VOTE: KamikazeArchon
Hawk trying to get people to vote for ZDS without decent reasoning why was awkward. My top scum candidate.
Cyan gives me scumvibes. Which probably means he's town: he's one of those players that doesn't make his posts sound "townie" when he is town and puts effort in that when scum (I am like that too).
KJ is usually more active as town. Lean scum.
Cantrip remains a scumread. If we don't lynch Hawk, then he would be a good lynch. I'll case him in the upcoming days.
Kami lurks as both alignments. His burst of activity had a lot more body to it than when he is scum though. Leaning town.
Imab isn't afraid to step on toes. Town.
I skimmed Chris too much for a solid read. Will fix that.
I'm usually pretty good at spotting scum!Seppel. I think he's town here.
Plowshares didn't leave an impression on me. Which is worrysome. I'm going to iso him to get a decent read.
Hans seemed scummy at first and then kind of disappeared.
BF/Antny slot is town, as is BE2 most probably.
vote Hawk
You are the one who presented this behavior as a scum thing. It is decidedly on you to prove that your words have any sort of merit other than useless fear mongering. My counter to your argument is that well scum don't really do that. Your counter to my counter is "well who cares if scum don't do that, they COULD do it." I mean they could do anything, really. That's just a dumb stance to take and given your relative intelligence makes it seem more likely you are scum than not. Like when you are providing reasoning for things you should have something more than this for a logical thread. I asked for an example of this being a scum thing, you probably can't provide any. So your argument sucks. Like if you've never seen it done by scum before how does the argument even pop int your head as a scummy thing naturally? It shouldn't. Unnatural thought processes are the domain of scum, because they just make stuff up as they go along.
I think he would have been less bold than he has been this game. Both in going after ZDS and how he has treated the pressure on him today. It is very, very bold play out of him that I haven't seen from him as scum in games I have been in. Also I feel like any alignment Cyan could have made the post you are calling into question. As scum he would fake being town, and as town he could feel as if you are manipulating things to get mislynches. You don't need to be certain of someone's alignment independently to feel as if someone is twisting the flow of the game to set up mislynches. I don't get how that post was such a huge scum red flag.
As for focusing on that specific point it was the point I felt strongest about after I read through everything you said. I find scum tends to like to focus on very broad strokes and to include everything when combating logic. I like to poke at the details because I feel that is where scum lies. Things like "Well most of my arguments are good!" are very much in the domain of scum.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
##vote: Killjoy
My 15th.
May 18th
A week ago
Yesterday.
The only two posts I left out in this 17 day span was his vote on ZDS and his noting he was going to be absent for a couple of days.
KJ is now on his second promise of content after never giving anything for the first one and is voting someone I have a solid town read for the second time. I think I was on the right track when I voted KJ to begin with, I just didn't have the logic to back me up yet.
Promising content and then not delivering is heinous.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
In his first real post, he says he likes Hunt, but the only real question he asks is to Hunt:
He also tries to direct a possible cop, which means Cyan is either town or godfather if Hawk is scum.
His scumreads (becomes important later):
Thinks Cyan is likely scum
Doesn't like WG's posts
Ties ZDS to a Cyan townflip
When conversing with WG, he doesn't pressure or interrogate him, although previously stating he doesn't like his posts:
Next thing he votes ZDS, while previously stating he's more likely scum if Cyan is scum.
The reasoning he gives is all based on ZDS's questioning of Hawk.
He gets concerned when Chris reacts poorly to an attack by Cyan (the same Cyan he thinks is scum).
And then there is another Wheat interaction that isn't made to get to know Wheat's alignment:
Next he tries to get more votes on ZDS without giving actual reasoning for that:
He goes waffling on Cyan, saying he doesn't trust him, but forgets he thinks ZDS who he wants to lynch is scum when that same Cyan is town.
Suddenly he has a scumread on Kami out of the blue
He waits a bit with telling us why and then posts this:
He gives a reasoning to why Kami might be doing this as town but then...
He votes him.
Also, look at his scumreads. Where did Wheat and Cyan go?
There is another useless Wheat interaction:
He revotes ZDS and is on the lynch wagon.
Day 2: calls Kami town, votes Cyan without reasoning (that same Cyan yes), unvotes twice, calls Kami scum again and votes Kami.
Tl;dr: Hawk never followed up on his early Wheat scumread, calls for votes on ZDS without having a decent reason to think he's scum, waffles a lot on Cyan and Kami and never has any other meaningful interactions that could help him find scum.
Wheat and cyan are still on my scum reads but I'm torn on both of them.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
Because I'm pretty sure lurk!Hans is scum!Hans. I'm also wondering where BE disappeared to (oh, the hypocrisy).
This post is just so ridiculous.
The field of flowers was endless for all to frolic in. In the distance, a single flower glared down on all of them.
-----
Cyan (3):, Wheat_Grinder, Killjoy, Cantripmancer
imabusinessman (1): KamikazeArchon
Burning_Earth2 (0):
Plowshares (0):
Sir Chris (0):
Wheat_Grinder (0):
7hawk77 (0): Rhand
KamikazeArchon (1): 7hawk77, imabusinessman
Antny223(0): Seppel
hansanator(0): Antny223
Seppel(0):
Rhand(0):
Killjoy(2): Cyan, Plowshares, Sir Chris
Cantripmancer(0):
----
Not voting(7): Burning_earth2, hansanator
Deadline: June 12
With 14 alive, it's 8 to lynch!
Due to the mass of VLAs for the MM2 Weekend, I'm not counting from last friday til now towards the deadline.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Honestly this doesn't feel that off to me. I've never really been in a game with hans lurking.
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I thought I 100% had scum with zds so I wanted to see that flip. He smeared my thought process twice for literally no reason which A. pissed me off and B. Doesnt have apparent town motivaton. Coupled that with a known good player playing badly and I thought that was the best lynch.
As far as pressuring others, I rarely pressure multiple people day 1, I usually try and find a preferred lynch and get that going. I only pressure if I need more info to make a lynch decision.
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Explain this vote in detail then please.
He said he was trying to change up his posting style whch is fine but I think he's lying. His content also seems to be different then what I'm used to regardless of posting style.
In a vacuum id lynch KA but I don't particularly like imab. Problem is I think seppell is town who trusts imab. Meanwhile cyan irks me but I don't if I'm being paranoid of losing to scum cyan previously or what have you. Meanwhile wheat feels more reserved and less playfully aggressive then I'm used to amd you end up with me playing this way.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
Your last answer to me showed a clear town mindset: you didn't just answer my question; you went into all your main concerns. Pretty sure You're town.
unvote, vote Rhand
That's how 778 reads to me.
Sorry that should be 788.
What makes you think I'm talking about Cantrip???? Clearly I'm referring to Hawk, from the fact I referenced Hawk's post and talked about the fact you shifted a read from scum to town, which is literally what you had just done with respect to Hawk.
yes, I think I was wrong about Hawk. He shows a town mindset under pressure. Which is why I pressure people.
So my townread of Killjoy is from early D1. He was on his towngame there.
But as Chris has pointed out, that was very, very long ago, and I have yet to see continued evidence of Killjoy's towngame.
Unvote, vote Killjoy.
Not my preferred wagon, but that votecount shows-- wow that votecount is bad. I'm voting Antny? Hans is a septuple-voter?
I love that the king of lurkers is calling out people on lurking.
"I have yet to see continued evidence of his towngame"
This is a crappy vote. Like, really bad.
Well I'm off tomorrow, so I plan to do a full catchup and such. I have been neglectibe mafia in general recently. I apologize.
His Kami vote is bad: He first thinks Kami is town for the 'Glory of motherland' comment, and then he proceeds to vote him in the exact same post without adding anything like 'guess I was wrong' or something. Seems like he forgot he put Kami in his townpile and found something to jump him on.
Kami never responds to that post, and yet in his next post Cantrip switches his vote to Wheat without mentioning Kami anymore.
He then has some decent posts.
In his catch-up post (517 + 544), where he rereads the game, there is hardly any mention of Kami. Looks like he never believed Kami really was scum.
In those posts he asks loads of questions to many people that never get answered, yet he doesn't come back to them.
Later on he does give reasoning for a Kami townread, but that has nothing to do with what happened earlier.
He pressures Cyan and imab and Chris a little bit, and those questions are the only ones he does follow up on. He completely abandons all his questioning from his catch-up.
Conclusion: Cantrip is not invested in his reads and doesn't care about most of his own questions.
It's ok, I still have 0 votes.
Awesome, I get a crown
In more serious news, Rhand's Cantrip case is really weak. So much so that I would bet good money he had next nothing when he moved his vote to Cantrip, and hastily put something longer together this morning after the fact.
More votes on Rhand please.
The only crown you get is for the ACTUAL dumbest forced attack ever. No one. Literally, no one, of ANY alignment would ever vote someone without having a reason already (outside RVS). No matter how small. It makes zero sense.
Unvote, Vote: Antny
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Or do you disagree that people who throw out questions and then not care for the answers are often scum?
Yes.
Would you like me to go over it?
That was only part of your case, but to answer anyway, town are perfectly capable of asking questions and not following up if something else distracts them.
Then what about the other part of my case where he completely abandons the Kami read?
29 doesn't actually say that Kami is town, merely that he picked up the vt crumb. It's not clear that it's a solid townread. I see the first comment in 57 as him explaning his reasoning in 29 (which I think is clear since he is responding to a direct question) and making it clear that he saw the crumb as townie. That's the entirity of Cantrip so called townread on Kami. On the other hand in the same post he says:
and
Which seems to explain pretty clearly why he voted for Kami. Not saying something along the lines of 'guess I was wrong' which isn't really necessary and certainly isn't alignment indicative.
So what? Wheat was clearly a scumread in 57 and subsequent posting by Wheat made Cantrip vote him. This is the same as the last point, your attacking him for something not said which wasn't necessary to say in the first place.
Which I guess we'll ignore for the sake of this scumcase.
Actually he mentioned 47 in his catchup but otherwise so what? What is so scummy about having a scumread on Kami in the early game and then finding other players scummier, while not finding all his posting after not worthy of mention. Your entire case up until this point is based on the idea that town should be scumreading whichever player they lay their first vote serious vote for the rest of the Day or longer. Your experienced enough to understand that reads change. The entire, Cantrip doesn't talk about Kami enough is just a stretch because you can't find anything actually scummy in his early play to go after.
I don't really buy that is any sort of scumtell.
Not sure what this is referring to. The main thing in Kami's early play that Cantrip points to is the breadcrumbs, and he even talked about the possibility of scum faking the crumbs, so I don't see what is really relevent here?
Town pressures players. Town sometimes doesn't follow up questions (this is particularly true on catchups). I can give you theories about why, but I'm guessing you'd probably prefer Cantrip to answer this.
The only read you've really mentioned is the supposed lack of investment in Kami, all his other reads (Wheat, ZDs, Cyan, etc) have been ignored completely by you (which seems odd if you were really concerned with his lack of investment in reads). You also haven't made any sort of convincing case about him not answering questions, simply stated it and moved on. There are examples of Cantrip following up on some unanswered questions (757 for example) but I'm not going to spend time working out whether he is mostly letting questions going unanswered or not.
So yeah, case feels light on actually scumminess.
Full Cantrip post quoted because Antny conveniently didn't quote the comment on top where Cantrip calls Kami town.
unvote, vote Antny
Suck to be you Rhand, if you bothered reading 807 you'd have seen it was the first thing I mentioned.
You're reaching for the stars trying to smear me and my case Antny.