Which part of that were you responding to in regards to "looking at all the angles"? If you feel that it's clear, you should be able to explain it without being dismissive.
I can only partially answer this during the game. What I meant is that I recognized that it might be necessary for me to die and be proven town before people could be swayed to lynch Killjoy and/or WG. Or at least, that is part of what I meant. I am not going to explain the other part now, because people will just take it the wrong way.
So is this a backpedal, or do you still see a post of mine that "maybe" is trying to set up an additional mislynch? If the latter, which post?
I am undecided. I should have kept this to myself and gauged how you act toward Killjoy, especially if he gets run up. Too late for that. But my ultimate conclusion here rests hugely on KJ's alignment. If he is scum, that means I was just seeing ghosts. If he is town, it makes you look alot worse.
Many of the players in this game know how capable I am as scum (I've been told I'm very good). And fair point: it's WIFOM. So is your assertion that Hunt died because he called me out at the end of D1.
If you say so; I've never seen you play as scum that I recall. If I did, it wasn't a memorable performance apparently. And Hunt died for SOME reason. I really doubt it was as simple as 'create WIFOM', because that is simply a poor choice when targeting a person like Huntzilla that has already effectively claimed VT. We're not talking about a high profile player here.
How are those "slanted"? I really wanted to hear why you didn't care if you got lynched (your answer could help determine your alignment; your response, however, was a big *shrug*). I really wanted to know why you were tossing in the towel at 3 votes, two of which were pretty naked (you didn't even respond). I really wanted to know why you thought Hawk was voting you (because you said he was misguided, but your response to that question was a combination slur on Hawk and a vague non-explanation).
I mean..how is it NOT slanted? You specifically referenced scum defeatism, and then actually asked me why I thought Hawk was voting me. If you don't understand why that second question is scummy in particular, then I don't know what to tell you, except to say that, if you were really interested in this answer, you would have asked Hawk, not me.
What was your intention?
To playfully pick on Seppel.
I'm not calling out or questioning imab's behavior; I'm calling you out on attacking me for passively pushing your wagon but not addressing the naked votes that are actively pushing your wagon (other than calling two of them scum and ignoring the third). Way to try and shift the argument, though.
You specifically called out IMAB's behavior when you said:
Quote from Cantrip »
If you check the posts, you'll note that my first two posts were asking questions trying to figure out what you're doing and why. I then called out your bad attack on Seppel's vote. How am I "pushing your wagon"? And interesting that you accuse me of this, but completely ignore imab's naked vote.
Emphasis mine. So yes, you absolutely called out and questioned IMAB's behavior. Care to try again?
Freakin'...why do you even PLAY mafia? Playing mafia with you is like playing with the world's most distracting question mark. It's ridiculously hard to get a read on you.
Which part of that were you responding to in regards to "looking at all the angles"? If you feel that it's clear, you should be able to explain it without being dismissive.
I can only partially answer this during the game. What I meant is that I recognized that it might be necessary for me to die and be proven town before people could be swayed to lynch Killjoy and/or WG. Or at least, that is part of what I meant. I am not going to explain the other part now, because people will just take it the wrong way.
Ok, but you weren't just "looking" at that angle; you were resigned to it, and I didn't see any other angles you were looking at. :/
Quote from Cyan »
So is this a backpedal, or do you still see a post of mine that "maybe" is trying to set up an additional mislynch? If the latter, which post?
I am undecided. I should have kept this to myself and gauged how you act toward Killjoy, especially if he gets run up. Too late for that. But my ultimate conclusion here rests hugely on KJ's alignment. If he is scum, that means I was just seeing ghosts. If he is town, it makes you look alot worse.
Ok, if you are unwilling to identify the post that you think is me setting up an additional mislynch, then please explain how KJ being town makes me scum. Then explain why, if you are *really* sure that KJ is scum, and KJ being scum makes me more likely to be town, you're suspecting me. Your mindset isn't jiving here, and you keep dancing around your answers.
Quote from Cyan »
Many of the players in this game know how capable I am as scum (I've been told I'm very good). And fair point: it's WIFOM. So is your assertion that Hunt died because he called me out at the end of D1.
If you say so; I've never seen you play as scum that I recall. If I did, it wasn't a memorable performance apparently.
Heh, if you want a character witness for how good I am at being scum, ask Seppel.
Quote from Cyan »
And Hunt died for SOME reason. I really doubt it was as simple as 'create WIFOM', because that is simply a poor choice when targeting a person like Huntzilla that has already effectively claimed VT. We're not talking about a high profile player here.
So why did you leap to the conclusion that Hunt died because he called me out? That's, like, WIFOM 101.
Quote from Cyan »
How are those "slanted"? I really wanted to hear why you didn't care if you got lynched (your answer could help determine your alignment; your response, however, was a big *shrug*). I really wanted to know why you were tossing in the towel at 3 votes, two of which were pretty naked (you didn't even respond). I really wanted to know why you thought Hawk was voting you (because you said he was misguided, but your response to that question was a combination slur on Hawk and a vague non-explanation).
I mean..how is it NOT slanted? You specifically referenced scum defeatism,
Yes, because I am trying to figure out if your defeatism is scummy or if there's a situation where town would see three questionable votes on him and roll over to be lynched.
And you skipped over the "why don't you care" question. Did you skip over it because it actually shows me trying to figure out your mindset and that's inconvenient?
And are you ever going to answer the question of why you were giving up at L-4?
Quote from Cyan »
and then actually asked me why I thought Hawk was voting me. If you don't understand why that second question is scummy in particular, then I don't know what to tell you, except to say that, if you were really interested in this answer, you would have asked Hawk, not me.
I didn't want to know why Hawk is voting you; I wanted to know why you thought Hawk was voting you. You know, since you explicitly said that you thought the other two votes were scum-motivated and that Hawk's vote was just misguided.
Quote from Cyan »
What was your intention?
To playfully pick on Seppel.
That sounds lovely, but take another look at your post:
Oh Seppel, you should so very clearly know better. I can forgive the rest of these guys, they're either A)scum and/or B)not that bright. But I'm pretty sure you are town, and you ARE 'that bright'. I am very disappointed in you right now.
I'm not hearing "playful banter" there; it sounds pretty laden with disappointment. And you devoted a whole post to it, which, in my mind, doesn't fit in the "silly in-game aside" category. It's not helping advance the game. It's not joking. It is, in fact, rather insulting to the rest of the people on your wagon. Perhaps you're right: Seppel's unlikely to pull his vote off because of something like this, but that's not necessarily a reason for scum!you not to try it.
Quote from Cyan »
I'm not calling out or questioning imab's behavior; I'm calling you out on attacking me for passively pushing your wagon but not addressing the naked votes that are actively pushing your wagon (other than calling two of them scum and ignoring the third). Way to try and shift the argument, though.
You specifically called out IMAB's behavior when you said:
Quote from Cantrip »
If you check the posts, you'll note that my first two posts were asking questions trying to figure out what you're doing and why. I then called out your bad attack on Seppel's vote. How am I "pushing your wagon"? And interesting that you accuse me of this, but completely ignore imab's naked vote.
Emphasis mine. So yes, you absolutely called out and questioned IMAB's behavior. Care to try again?
I specified imab's vote because it was the only one you hadn't addressed (KJ and Wheat were scum, Hawk was misguided, Seppel should have known better). I wasn't calling it out or questioning it; I was noting that you were going after me for what you asserted was passive aggressiveness, but you ignored imab entirely. Whether his vote was good or bad remains to be seen, but my concern is that you didn't even note it. A naked vote that put you at claim range. And instead of questioning it, or claiming, or even mentioning it, you spent your response on an appeal to emotion on Seppel.
Why didn't you respond to/comment on/address imab's vote?
Ok, but you weren't just "looking" at that angle; you were resigned to it, and I didn't see any other angles you were looking at. :/
I'll tell you the other angle later. I considered multiple options, however. I promise.
Ok, if you are unwilling to identify the post that you think is me setting up an additional mislynch, then please explain how KJ being town makes me scum. Then explain why, if you are *really* sure that KJ is scum, and KJ being scum makes me more likely to be town, you're suspecting me. Your mindset isn't jiving here, and you keep dancing around your answers.
I thought that I quoted the post that felt like you were trying to set KJ(or maybe WG, but probably not) up to get mislynched after I got lynched. I was talking about this post:
But you don't KNOW that WG and/or KJ are scum (if you do, it's because you're scum yourself). So you being ok with this makes no sense.
This feels like a complete setup to me. In my mind, I can literally see scum-you just setting up town KJ to get mislynched after I get mislynched. Like he is a bowling pin and I am the ball.
At least, that was the first thought that I had when I read this. But I could be wrong on it, and it feels like I probably am, because I'm still completely convinced that KJ is scum.
Heh, if you want a character witness for how good I am at being scum, ask Seppel. AWESOME
All that this means is that I can't just trust you when you seem really town.
So why did you leap to the conclusion that Hunt died because he called me out? That's, like, WIFOM 101.
It is the most likely conclusion based on all evidence available to us. You can't just call it WIFOM because you don't like it.
Yes, because I am trying to figure out if your defeatism is scummy or if there's a situation where town would see three questionable votes on him and roll over to be lynched.
And you skipped over the "why don't you care" question. Did you skip over it because it actually shows me trying to figure out your mindset and that's inconvenient?
And are you ever going to answer the question of why you were giving up at L-4?
Well, I'm convinced enough that KJ is scum that I'm willing to die if it is necessary to see him get lynched. And Hawk just piled his vote on me, despite(I'm pretty sure) proclaiming I was town yesterday. I spent all day yesterday fighting off WG's petty sideswipes and IMAB's nonsense. I just don't have it in me to continue doing that. I'm also concerned that I will just be an easy mislynch target for the scum team later. I'd rather just get lynched now when the town has more breathing room, if it's going to happen eventually. And frankly, there aren't that many people in this game that I trust enough to realize I am town and not go after me.
I'm not hearing "playful banter" there; it sounds pretty laden with disappointment. And you devoted a whole post to it, which, in my mind, doesn't fit in the "silly in-game aside" category. It's not helping advance the game. It's not joking. It is, in fact, rather insulting to the rest of the people on your wagon. Perhaps you're right: Seppel's unlikely to pull his vote off because of something like this, but that's not necessarily a reason for scum!you not to try it.
I am disappointed! Seppel should flatly know better. But I was still just poking fun at him. What else was I supposed to do? I don't think he is scum, but he literally just dumped his vote on me. So I felt like needling him about it. I didn't exactly have alot of options.
I specified imab's vote because it was the only one you hadn't addressed (KJ and Wheat were scum, Hawk was misguided, Seppel should have known better). I wasn't calling it out or questioning it; I was noting that you were going after me for what you asserted was passive aggressiveness, but you ignored imab entirely. Whether his vote was good or bad remains to be seen, but my concern is that you didn't even note it. A naked vote that put you at claim range. And instead of questioning it, or claiming, or even mentioning it, you spent your response on an appeal to emotion on Seppel.
Why didn't you respond to/comment on/address imab's vote?
Because IMAB has been voting me for the entire game. I don't need to ask about it. Like...you are in this game right? IMAB has called me scum in approximately half of his posts.
I fully expected for today to start, and the following people: KJ, WG, and IMAB to all vote me in short order. I hoped that others would realize that this is a bad vote, but with how quickly Hawk just went along with it, I gave up on that and just figured I'd die and then people would lynch KJ. Better late than never.
Ok, but you weren't just "looking" at that angle; you were resigned to it, and I didn't see any other angles you were looking at. :/
I'll tell you the other angle later. I considered multiple options, however. I promise.
Ok, but I'm holding you to this.
Quote from Cyan »
Ok, if you are unwilling to identify the post that you think is me setting up an additional mislynch, then please explain how KJ being town makes me scum. Then explain why, if you are *really* sure that KJ is scum, and KJ being scum makes me more likely to be town, you're suspecting me. Your mindset isn't jiving here, and you keep dancing around your answers.
I thought that I quoted the post that felt like you were trying to set KJ(or maybe WG, but probably not) up to get mislynched after I got lynched. I was talking about this post:
But you don't KNOW that WG and/or KJ are scum (if you do, it's because you're scum yourself). So you being ok with this makes no sense.
This feels like a complete setup to me. In my mind, I can literally see scum-you just setting up town KJ to get mislynched after I get mislynched. Like he is a bowling pin and I am the ball.
At least, that was the first thought that I had when I read this. But I could be wrong on it, and it feels like I probably am, because I'm still completely convinced that KJ is scum.
How does that make ANY sense from a town perspective? I was saying that the only way you could know that they were scum is if you were scum with them. So if you get lynched and come up town, my suspicion (that you are scum with either WG or KJ) is 100% null and void, and I couldn't point to your alignment and call for WG and/or KJ's lynch. And your "reason" for backpedaling on this is because you think KJ is scum...so now I'm not trying to chain mislynches...not because the logic I would use to chain the mislynch doesn't work if you're town...but because KJ is likely scum?
Vote: Cyan
If Cyan comes up scum, KJ is a very high candidate for the next lynch. (See what I did there, Cyan? That's called chaining mislynches.)
Quote from Cyan »
Heh, if you want a character witness for how good I am at being scum, ask Seppel. AWESOME
All that this means is that I can't just trust you when you seem really town.
Well, figuring that out is your job. Figuring you out is mine.
Quote from Cyan »
So why did you leap to the conclusion that Hunt died because he called me out? That's, like, WIFOM 101.
It is the most likely conclusion based on all evidence available to us. You can't just call it WIFOM because you don't like it.
Tell me more. How is it the "most likely" conclusion?
Quote from Cyan »
Yes, because I am trying to figure out if your defeatism is scummy or if there's a situation where town would see three questionable votes on him and roll over to be lynched.
And you skipped over the "why don't you care" question. Did you skip over it because it actually shows me trying to figure out your mindset and that's inconvenient?
And are you ever going to answer the question of why you were giving up at L-4?
Well, I'm convinced enough that KJ is scum that I'm willing to die if it is necessary to see him get lynched. And Hawk just piled his vote on me, despite(I'm pretty sure) proclaiming I was town yesterday. I spent all day yesterday fighting off WG's petty sideswipes and IMAB's nonsense. I just don't have it in me to continue doing that. I'm also concerned that I will just be an easy mislynch target for the scum team later. I'd rather just get lynched now when the town has more breathing room, if it's going to happen eventually. And frankly, there aren't that many people in this game that I trust enough to realize I am town and not go after me.
So you're giving up because people are attacking you and you don't feel like there are enough people who can read you correctly? Isn't it your primary job--if you're town--to scumhunt and avoid getting mislynched? And I don't buy the argument that you're willing to lay down your life if it results in KJ's lynch because if you're town, You. Don't. Know. That. KJ's. Scum. You're convinced that he is? Great. Prove it by demonstrating how his posts show a scum mindset. But if you're town, rolling over just creates the potential for YOU to chain mislynches, which only helps the scum.
But from a scum perspective, offering to lay down your life to get KJ lynched adds what feels like an extra layer of conviction. And if you're bussing, then a scum!KJ lynch gives you mad credit (because, hey, you were willing to die! OMG, conviction!).
Quote from Cyan »
I'm not hearing "playful banter" there; it sounds pretty laden with disappointment. And you devoted a whole post to it, which, in my mind, doesn't fit in the "silly in-game aside" category. It's not helping advance the game. It's not joking. It is, in fact, rather insulting to the rest of the people on your wagon. Perhaps you're right: Seppel's unlikely to pull his vote off because of something like this, but that's not necessarily a reason for scum!you not to try it.
I am disappointed! Seppel should flatly know better. But I was still just poking fun at him. What else was I supposed to do? I don't think he is scum, but he literally just dumped his vote on me. So I felt like needling him about it. I didn't exactly have alot of options.
I guess this is something that will only be resolved when we know your alignment.
Quote from Cyan »
Because IMAB has been voting me for the entire game. I don't need to ask about it. Like...you are in this game right? IMAB has called me scum in approximately half of his posts.
Ok, it just seemed odd that you wouldn't say something, given that you commented on everyone else.
Quote from Cyan »
I fully expected for today to start, and the following people: KJ, WG, and IMAB to all vote me in short order. I hoped that others would realize that this is a bad vote, but with how quickly Hawk just went along with it, I gave up on that and just figured I'd die and then people would lynch KJ. Better late than never.
And by constantly going after KJ, if you're both scum, your scum flip will serve the opposite purpose and give him town cred.
I don't feel like Cyan is exhibiting a town mindset in his explanations. I think we should lynch him. But there are a ton of people on V/LA, so I'm ok with waiting for more perspectives.
That's a sentiment I unDerstand. In the meantime could you answer the question I posed to you in 697?
In the meantime, could you answer the question I posed to you in 709?
Not before you address the point I brought to your attention in post 545.
I think you should give this up. I'm pretty sure Kami's town. Just because I don't have a problem with you putting a 2nd vote on a player in RVS doesn't mean Kami doesn't have a problem with it; therefore, Kami wasn't necessarily defending Cyan for doing something dumb as a townie.
That's a sentiment I unDerstand. In the meantime could you answer the question I posed to you in 697?
In the meantime, could you answer the question I posed to you in 709?
Not before you address the point I brought to your attention in post 545.
I think you should give this up. I'm pretty sure Kami's town. Just because I don't have a problem with you putting a 2nd vote on a player in RVS doesn't mean Kami doesn't have a problem with it; therefore, Kami wasn't necessarily defending Cyan for doing something dumb as a townie.
Back to 709.
Ant's' 665 looks phony. Blindfaeth looked to be just sheeping other people's opinions and never had an original thought in her/his life.
That's a sentiment I unDerstand. In the meantime could you answer the question I posed to you in 697?
In the meantime, could you answer the question I posed to you in 709?
Not before you address the point I brought to your attention in post 545.
I think you should give this up. I'm pretty sure Kami's town. Just because I don't have a problem with you putting a 2nd vote on a player in RVS doesn't mean Kami doesn't have a problem with it; therefore, Kami wasn't necessarily defending Cyan for doing something dumb as a townie.
Back to 709.
How likely is it that two players genuinely believe something so stupid as "the 2nd vote during RVS is scummy"? Yet there's Kami and Cyan slobbering and defending each other. At first I thought one of them had to be scum, but then they just kept acting scummy together until they stopped interacting with one another at all. Incredibly bizarre.
Cyan yesterday a post by Cant (btw I have no idea how to shorten your name appropriately) hit me the wrong way, in response you called him like the towniest thing ever. Today I get the feeling you are backtracking from that stance. Why is that? Because he's attacking you?
But from a scum perspective, offering to lay down your life to get KJ lynched adds what feels like an extra layer of conviction. And if you're bussing, then a scum!KJ lynch gives you mad credit (because, hey, you were willing to die! OMG, conviction!).
I would like an example of a scum Cyan doing something like this. Actually I'd like to see any scum ever doing this so I can point and laugh at them, but that would be a bit besides the point. I have played with scum Cyan... dare I say almost constantly over the last year and this does not strike me as his meta at all. What you say sounds plausible in theory, but I have never seen it done in practice by a skilled scum player. There are so many better ways to enforce your will upon a town then go "you know guys, just putting it out there, you can kill me!" Also the cruel thing about mafia I have found is that "well it serves no purpose for town!" doesn't always mean a lot to the town members playing the game. Town's beauty, and its failing, is that it doesn't always pay attention to the script it has been given. Optimal play is not always the only play. Your attack on Cyan is one based on perfect play theory, and makes me very nervous about you. Because it's a good, clean attack... in theory. In practice I think it is deeply flawed and doesn't actually reflect how mafia is played. You seem to be a good player, you discuss things and people talk about you like you are good, so the fact that your attack on a player of Cyan's caliber is so simplistic bothers me. It's first level thinking, if you know the term. You went from A to B, gave us a thumbs up, and moved on with your day. I... don't understand how you can't see what I see. How horrible of a scum play this would be for Cyan. Not everyone thinks like me, I am a bit of an odd ball, and Cyan knows this. Cyan knows how people react to certain things on this site keenly. He even said it, he expected to be voted. Coupled with his ferocity yesterday this feels like a town Cyan who took a huge swipe at ZDS and knows, because he is clever, that he left his back exposed.
Exposure to a player of Cyan's skill is very dangerous, because people look for any moment of weakness to ponce upon him. Not only scum either, I am sure town is voting cyan out of sheer fear right now. I get it, he's won a lot of scum games. I just don't... see the scum mindset. It'd be beneath his play to a huge level. Consider this a reverse cyanity check.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Think fast Plowshares: what exactly makes me town? What specific thing did I say that made you go "you know what, that guy is town"?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
One of the things I miss most when playing here is that in 48 hour days when someone didn't respond to you a few minutes after they posted it was suspicious due to the very fast paced. Here it is just normal. Sigh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Your attack on Cyan is one based on perfect play theory, and makes me very nervous about you. Because it's a good, clean attack... in theory.
Hey Sir Chris...you seem to be active.
I find Cantrip's attacks on Cyan to be rather sloppy and poorly thought out. What are your thoughts on Cyan+Cantrip both being scum and their back and forth being nothing but theatrics?
I think I've gone over Cyan independent of Cantrip quite a bit, but to redress it up and remix it for you I think Cyan's single minded attack on ZDS yesterday is more indicative of an aggressive and confident town player. I feel as if Cyan's early defeatism today does not fit into the type of player I know him to be as scum, and serves him no purpose. The stuff between those two could certainly be faked, I saw Cyan go after a buddy before, totally in his wheelhouse, but other things don't support it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
3 pages read. Strong town reads on Kami, Blindfaeth, Chris, KillJoy
Weaker town reads on BE2, Imab, Seppel, Plowshares
Weak scum read on Cyan, Hans
Strong scum read on Wheat, Cantrip
I think I'm trusting ZDS less as the game goes on.
I'm trusting him more. Do you think ZDS is lying about calling KA a liar? I'm assuming this means you fact-checked the post right above yours? And you must've found that it wasn't true? If so, why aren't you posting evidence of the contrary?
Right, because what you said has no basis in reality.
okay so Hawk wasn't in my notes because he didn't post the first 3 pages. Add him to my scumreads.
Page 4 solidified the Wheat read more. Chris I'm less sure of now and Plowshares more sure.
Page 5: skimming Chris's walls for now because I want some progress in my reading.
Don't like how Wheat and Cyan dump Cantrip in their townreads. I've seen nothing of him that would indicate town on the first 5 pages.
The same with Hans dumping Wheat in his townreads.
I think I'm trusting ZDS less as the game goes on.
I'm trusting him more. Do you think ZDS is lying about calling KA a liar? I'm assuming this means you fact-checked the post right above yours? And you must've found that it wasn't true? If so, why aren't you posting evidence of the contrary?
Right, because what you said has no basis in reality.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
How likely is it that two players genuinely believe something so stupid as "the 2nd vote during RVS is scummy"? Yet there's Kami and Cyan slobbering and defending each other. At first I thought one of them had to be scum, but then they just kept acting scummy together until they stopped interacting with one another at all. Incredibly bizarre.
This post doesn't tell me where you stand on either of them. Do you think all this coordinated slobbering, etc. makes them more town, more scum, or...???
But from a scum perspective, offering to lay down your life to get KJ lynched adds what feels like an extra layer of conviction. And if you're bussing, then a scum!KJ lynch gives you mad credit (because, hey, you were willing to die! OMG, conviction!).
I would like an example of a scum Cyan doing something like this. Actually I'd like to see any scum ever doing this so I can point and laugh at them, but that would be a bit besides the point.
So because no one does it as scum, Cyan can't be doing it as scum because...?
Quote from Chris »
I have played with scum Cyan... dare I say almost constantly over the last year and this does not strike me as his meta at all. What you say sounds plausible in theory, but I have never seen it done in practice by a skilled scum player. There are so many better ways to enforce your will upon a town then go "you know guys, just putting it out there, you can kill me!"
Some approaches are going to work better in some situations, and at different points in a player's mafia career, even, than others. The defeatism from a player of Cyan's caliber struck me as odd, so I've been looking for possible explanations.
Quote from Chris »
Also the cruel thing about mafia I have found is that "well it serves no purpose for town!" doesn't always mean a lot to the town members playing the game. Town's beauty, and its failing, is that it doesn't always pay attention to the script it has been given. Optimal play is not always the only play. Your attack on Cyan is one based on perfect play theory, and makes me very nervous about you. Because it's a good, clean attack... in theory. In practice I think it is deeply flawed and doesn't actually reflect how mafia is played. You seem to be a good player, you discuss things and people talk about you like you are good, so the fact that your attack on a player of Cyan's caliber is so simplistic bothers me. It's first level thinking, if you know the term. You went from A to B, gave us a thumbs up, and moved on with your day.
I don't feel like this was the case at all. I've been talking it out quite a bit, and it's been through Cyan's responses to my questions that I've formed a scumread on him, not specifically this one element.
Quote from Chris »
I... don't understand how you can't see what I see. How horrible of a scum play this would be for Cyan. Not everyone thinks like me, I am a bit of an odd ball, and Cyan knows this. Cyan knows how people react to certain things on this site keenly. He even said it, he expected to be voted. Coupled with his ferocity yesterday this feels like a town Cyan who took a huge swipe at ZDS and knows, because he is clever, that he left his back exposed.
How would you expect scum!Cyan to have gone about this differently?
But more to the point, why did you choose to focus on only one part of my arguments? The piece that really solidified my scumread on Cyan was this response:
But you don't KNOW that WG and/or KJ are scum (if you do, it's because you're scum yourself). So you being ok with this makes no sense.
This feels like a complete setup to me. In my mind, I can literally see scum-you just setting up town KJ to get mislynched after I get mislynched. Like he is a bowling pin and I am the ball.
How does the above conclusion come from a town mindset?
okay so Hawk wasn't in my notes because he didn't post the first 3 pages. Add him to my scumreads.
Page 4 solidified the Wheat read more. Chris I'm less sure of now and Plowshares more sure.
To confirm: you're saying that your read on Wheat ("strong scum") is solidified, your read on Chris ("strong town") is diminished and you're reading Plowshares more strongly as town?
I was gone for 3 days and nothing happened except that Seppel wants to vote a lurker.
And KJ's reaction to my vote on him is bad. More people should be voting him.
Your V/LA doesn't mean you don't have to answer my questions in #717. I especially want to hear how you, as town, came to the "chaining mislynches" conclusion, but also explain the WIFOM "most likely conclusion" baloney, please.
How likely is it that two players genuinely believe something so stupid as "the 2nd vote during RVS is scummy"? Yet there's Kami and Cyan slobbering and defending each other. At first I thought one of them had to be scum, but then they just kept acting scummy together until they stopped interacting with one another at all. Incredibly bizarre.
This post doesn't tell me where you stand on either of them. Do you think all this coordinated slobbering, etc. makes them more town, more scum, or...???
On a scale of 1-10 on how disingenious these questions are...
How likely is it that two players genuinely believe something so stupid as "the 2nd vote during RVS is scummy"? Yet there's Kami and Cyan slobbering and defending each other. At first I thought one of them had to be scum, but then they just kept acting scummy together until they stopped interacting with one another at all. Incredibly bizarre.
This post doesn't tell me where you stand on either of them. Do you think all this coordinated slobbering, etc. makes them more town, more scum, or...???
On a scale of 1-10 on how disingenious these questions are...
Question dodging noted. Mild use of humor to smear noted. Now answer my questions.
How does the above conclusion come from a town mindset?
How does it NOT come from a town mindset? How would a scum ever think 'this guy is trying to set up chain mislynches on me and another possible townie'? This literally makes no sense.
Your V/LA doesn't mean you don't have to answer my questions in #717. I especially want to hear how you, as town, came to the "chaining mislynches" conclusion, but also explain the WIFOM "most likely conclusion" baloney, please.
I've explained this the best that I am able to, and I am done doing so.
"Jokes on them I was just pretending."
All the cool kids were doing it.
I can only partially answer this during the game. What I meant is that I recognized that it might be necessary for me to die and be proven town before people could be swayed to lynch Killjoy and/or WG. Or at least, that is part of what I meant. I am not going to explain the other part now, because people will just take it the wrong way.
I am undecided. I should have kept this to myself and gauged how you act toward Killjoy, especially if he gets run up. Too late for that. But my ultimate conclusion here rests hugely on KJ's alignment. If he is scum, that means I was just seeing ghosts. If he is town, it makes you look alot worse.
If you say so; I've never seen you play as scum that I recall. If I did, it wasn't a memorable performance apparently. And Hunt died for SOME reason. I really doubt it was as simple as 'create WIFOM', because that is simply a poor choice when targeting a person like Huntzilla that has already effectively claimed VT. We're not talking about a high profile player here.
I mean..how is it NOT slanted? You specifically referenced scum defeatism, and then actually asked me why I thought Hawk was voting me. If you don't understand why that second question is scummy in particular, then I don't know what to tell you, except to say that, if you were really interested in this answer, you would have asked Hawk, not me.
To playfully pick on Seppel.
You specifically called out IMAB's behavior when you said:
Emphasis mine. So yes, you absolutely called out and questioned IMAB's behavior. Care to try again?
Ok, but you weren't just "looking" at that angle; you were resigned to it, and I didn't see any other angles you were looking at. :/
Ok, if you are unwilling to identify the post that you think is me setting up an additional mislynch, then please explain how KJ being town makes me scum. Then explain why, if you are *really* sure that KJ is scum, and KJ being scum makes me more likely to be town, you're suspecting me. Your mindset isn't jiving here, and you keep dancing around your answers.
Heh, if you want a character witness for how good I am at being scum, ask Seppel.
So why did you leap to the conclusion that Hunt died because he called me out? That's, like, WIFOM 101.
Yes, because I am trying to figure out if your defeatism is scummy or if there's a situation where town would see three questionable votes on him and roll over to be lynched.
And you skipped over the "why don't you care" question. Did you skip over it because it actually shows me trying to figure out your mindset and that's inconvenient?
And are you ever going to answer the question of why you were giving up at L-4?
I didn't want to know why Hawk is voting you; I wanted to know why you thought Hawk was voting you. You know, since you explicitly said that you thought the other two votes were scum-motivated and that Hawk's vote was just misguided.
That sounds lovely, but take another look at your post:
I'm not hearing "playful banter" there; it sounds pretty laden with disappointment. And you devoted a whole post to it, which, in my mind, doesn't fit in the "silly in-game aside" category. It's not helping advance the game. It's not joking. It is, in fact, rather insulting to the rest of the people on your wagon. Perhaps you're right: Seppel's unlikely to pull his vote off because of something like this, but that's not necessarily a reason for scum!you not to try it.
I specified imab's vote because it was the only one you hadn't addressed (KJ and Wheat were scum, Hawk was misguided, Seppel should have known better). I wasn't calling it out or questioning it; I was noting that you were going after me for what you asserted was passive aggressiveness, but you ignored imab entirely. Whether his vote was good or bad remains to be seen, but my concern is that you didn't even note it. A naked vote that put you at claim range. And instead of questioning it, or claiming, or even mentioning it, you spent your response on an appeal to emotion on Seppel.
Why didn't you respond to/comment on/address imab's vote?
I'll tell you the other angle later. I considered multiple options, however. I promise.
I thought that I quoted the post that felt like you were trying to set KJ(or maybe WG, but probably not) up to get mislynched after I got lynched. I was talking about this post:
This feels like a complete setup to me. In my mind, I can literally see scum-you just setting up town KJ to get mislynched after I get mislynched. Like he is a bowling pin and I am the ball.
At least, that was the first thought that I had when I read this. But I could be wrong on it, and it feels like I probably am, because I'm still completely convinced that KJ is scum.
All that this means is that I can't just trust you when you seem really town.
It is the most likely conclusion based on all evidence available to us. You can't just call it WIFOM because you don't like it.
Well, I'm convinced enough that KJ is scum that I'm willing to die if it is necessary to see him get lynched. And Hawk just piled his vote on me, despite(I'm pretty sure) proclaiming I was town yesterday. I spent all day yesterday fighting off WG's petty sideswipes and IMAB's nonsense. I just don't have it in me to continue doing that. I'm also concerned that I will just be an easy mislynch target for the scum team later. I'd rather just get lynched now when the town has more breathing room, if it's going to happen eventually. And frankly, there aren't that many people in this game that I trust enough to realize I am town and not go after me.
I am disappointed! Seppel should flatly know better. But I was still just poking fun at him. What else was I supposed to do? I don't think he is scum, but he literally just dumped his vote on me. So I felt like needling him about it. I didn't exactly have alot of options.
Because IMAB has been voting me for the entire game. I don't need to ask about it. Like...you are in this game right? IMAB has called me scum in approximately half of his posts.
I fully expected for today to start, and the following people: KJ, WG, and IMAB to all vote me in short order. I hoped that others would realize that this is a bad vote, but with how quickly Hawk just went along with it, I gave up on that and just figured I'd die and then people would lynch KJ. Better late than never.
-----
Cyan (3):, Wheat_Grinder, Killjoy, imabusinessman
imabusinessman (1): KamikazeArchon
Burning_Earth2 (0):
Plowshares (0):
Sir Chris (0):
Wheat_Grinder (0):
7hawk77 (0):
KamikazeArchon (1): Seppel
Blindfaeth(0):
hansanator(0):
Seppel(0):
Roowastaken(0):
Killjoy(2): Cyan, Plowshares
Cantripmancer(0):
----
Not voting(7): Antny225, Burning_earth2, Cantripmancer, hansanator, Rhand, SirChris, 7hawk77
V/LA: Sir Chris (30.5.), Rhand (until the end of time), KamikazeArchon (31.5.), Cyan (1.6.)
With 14 alive, it's 8 to lynch!
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Ok, but I'm holding you to this.
How does that make ANY sense from a town perspective? I was saying that the only way you could know that they were scum is if you were scum with them. So if you get lynched and come up town, my suspicion (that you are scum with either WG or KJ) is 100% null and void, and I couldn't point to your alignment and call for WG and/or KJ's lynch. And your "reason" for backpedaling on this is because you think KJ is scum...so now I'm not trying to chain mislynches...not because the logic I would use to chain the mislynch doesn't work if you're town...but because KJ is likely scum?
Vote: Cyan
If Cyan comes up scum, KJ is a very high candidate for the next lynch. (See what I did there, Cyan? That's called chaining
mislynches.)Well, figuring that out is your job. Figuring you out is mine.
Tell me more. How is it the "most likely" conclusion?
So you're giving up because people are attacking you and you don't feel like there are enough people who can read you correctly? Isn't it your primary job--if you're town--to scumhunt and avoid getting mislynched? And I don't buy the argument that you're willing to lay down your life if it results in KJ's lynch because if you're town, You. Don't. Know. That. KJ's. Scum. You're convinced that he is? Great. Prove it by demonstrating how his posts show a scum mindset. But if you're town, rolling over just creates the potential for YOU to chain mislynches, which only helps the scum.
But from a scum perspective, offering to lay down your life to get KJ lynched adds what feels like an extra layer of conviction. And if you're bussing, then a scum!KJ lynch gives you mad credit (because, hey, you were willing to die! OMG, conviction!).
I guess this is something that will only be resolved when we know your alignment.
Ok, it just seemed odd that you wouldn't say something, given that you commented on everyone else.
And by constantly going after KJ, if you're both scum, your scum flip will serve the opposite purpose and give him town cred.
I don't feel like Cyan is exhibiting a town mindset in his explanations. I think we should lynch him. But there are a ton of people on V/LA, so I'm ok with waiting for more perspectives.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Outdated Mafia Stats
That's a sentiment I unDerstand. In the meantime could you answer the question I posed to you in 697?
No.
Not before you address the point I brought to your attention in post 545.
Back to 709.
Ant's' 665 looks phony. Blindfaeth looked to be just sheeping other people's opinions and never had an original thought in her/his life.
How likely is it that two players genuinely believe something so stupid as "the 2nd vote during RVS is scummy"? Yet there's Kami and Cyan slobbering and defending each other. At first I thought one of them had to be scum, but then they just kept acting scummy together until they stopped interacting with one another at all. Incredibly bizarre.
Cyan yesterday a post by Cant (btw I have no idea how to shorten your name appropriately) hit me the wrong way, in response you called him like the towniest thing ever. Today I get the feeling you are backtracking from that stance. Why is that? Because he's attacking you?
I would like an example of a scum Cyan doing something like this. Actually I'd like to see any scum ever doing this so I can point and laugh at them, but that would be a bit besides the point. I have played with scum Cyan... dare I say almost constantly over the last year and this does not strike me as his meta at all. What you say sounds plausible in theory, but I have never seen it done in practice by a skilled scum player. There are so many better ways to enforce your will upon a town then go "you know guys, just putting it out there, you can kill me!" Also the cruel thing about mafia I have found is that "well it serves no purpose for town!" doesn't always mean a lot to the town members playing the game. Town's beauty, and its failing, is that it doesn't always pay attention to the script it has been given. Optimal play is not always the only play. Your attack on Cyan is one based on perfect play theory, and makes me very nervous about you. Because it's a good, clean attack... in theory. In practice I think it is deeply flawed and doesn't actually reflect how mafia is played. You seem to be a good player, you discuss things and people talk about you like you are good, so the fact that your attack on a player of Cyan's caliber is so simplistic bothers me. It's first level thinking, if you know the term. You went from A to B, gave us a thumbs up, and moved on with your day. I... don't understand how you can't see what I see. How horrible of a scum play this would be for Cyan. Not everyone thinks like me, I am a bit of an odd ball, and Cyan knows this. Cyan knows how people react to certain things on this site keenly. He even said it, he expected to be voted. Coupled with his ferocity yesterday this feels like a town Cyan who took a huge swipe at ZDS and knows, because he is clever, that he left his back exposed.
Exposure to a player of Cyan's skill is very dangerous, because people look for any moment of weakness to ponce upon him. Not only scum either, I am sure town is voting cyan out of sheer fear right now. I get it, he's won a lot of scum games. I just don't... see the scum mindset. It'd be beneath his play to a huge level. Consider this a reverse cyanity check.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I think our votes today should focus on KA, Roo and Cantrip.
Why Cantrip? Why Roo? KA I get.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Hey Sir Chris...you seem to be active.
I find Cantrip's attacks on Cyan to be rather sloppy and poorly thought out. What are your thoughts on Cyan+Cantrip both being scum and their back and forth being nothing but theatrics?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Your repeated taking of the harder stance. It would have been easy (for a scum!Chris) to just lay into Cyan after ZDS flipped Town and push a Lynch.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Why Roo and Cantrip?
And Roowasscum.
Weaker town reads on BE2, Imab, Seppel, Plowshares
Weak scum read on Cyan, Hans
Strong scum read on Wheat, Cantrip
Hawk isn't in my notes.
12 more pages to go
Seppel seriously; why Roo's slot over Blindfaeth?
Page 4 solidified the Wheat read more. Chris I'm less sure of now and Plowshares more sure.
Don't like how Wheat and Cyan dump Cantrip in their townreads. I've seen nothing of him that would indicate town on the first 5 pages.
The same with Hans dumping Wheat in his townreads.
Hey thanks for pulling that up.
Unvote, vote Blindfaeth
Is there a case on KA?
I need to sit down and reread this game again.
Outdated Mafia Stats
And KJ's reaction to my vote on him is bad. More people should be voting him.
Pretty sure this has to be the lynch.
Outdated Mafia Stats
This post doesn't tell me where you stand on either of them. Do you think all this coordinated slobbering, etc. makes them more town, more scum, or...???
So because no one does it as scum, Cyan can't be doing it as scum because...?
Some approaches are going to work better in some situations, and at different points in a player's mafia career, even, than others. The defeatism from a player of Cyan's caliber struck me as odd, so I've been looking for possible explanations.
I don't feel like this was the case at all. I've been talking it out quite a bit, and it's been through Cyan's responses to my questions that I've formed a scumread on him, not specifically this one element.
How would you expect scum!Cyan to have gone about this differently?
But more to the point, why did you choose to focus on only one part of my arguments? The piece that really solidified my scumread on Cyan was this response:
How does the above conclusion come from a town mindset?
To confirm: you're saying that your read on Wheat ("strong scum") is solidified, your read on Chris ("strong town") is diminished and you're reading Plowshares more strongly as town?
Your V/LA doesn't mean you don't have to answer my questions in #717. I especially want to hear how you, as town, came to the "chaining mislynches" conclusion, but also explain the WIFOM "most likely conclusion" baloney, please.
Interesting. What are your reasons for wanting to lynch Kami?
Outdated Mafia Stats
Why? Prey tell.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
On a scale of 1-10 on how disingenious these questions are...
How does it NOT come from a town mindset? How would a scum ever think 'this guy is trying to set up chain mislynches on me and another possible townie'? This literally makes no sense.
I've explained this the best that I am able to, and I am done doing so.