And BE is right. Random voting someone not in the game is not a tell. It simply is not. If you think it is, you are flatly incorrect. This idea is so stupid that I don't even know where it came from. Like it is seriously just painfully ridiculous.
BE2 didn't say the tell doesn't exist. He said it's bad. Myself, BE2, Cantripmancer and WheatGrinder all saw it. That's four people saying it exists.
I understand why it could appear that I was being hypocritical in my vote on ZDS, after calling you out. The difference is that your vote on me was demonstrably awful, and my vote on ZDS was not(but his case was, which also helps).
If you want to see a vote that's demonstratably awful you should check out this one dude Cyan. He says that the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy and then followed that up by claiming that OMGUS is scummy. It was a hoot. Oh wait, that's you. Awkward...
And you're not even concerned that ZDS, one of the people you are proclaiming as town from all of this, has given up on me and moved on to Sir Chris instead.
I have never called ZDS town. Never. I said "could be scumhunting". How you equate that to a townread is beyond me.
How the hell can anyone think you're town? I'm flabbergasted. Like literally almost choked on my hamburger because I had to take a breath and couldn't believe I'm reading this *****. How the **** are you town?
Plow if you feel he is scum why are you getting so frustrated? I would think you would be eager to keep pouncing upon him if you believe your cause is righteous. Why so much anger? It looks a bit like theatrics.
That is 100% bull*****.
Elaborate please?
People get really frustrated at their scumreads. Like, all the time.
Also, I don't like how Chris voted me and then said really soon 'I'm not sure of B_E's alignment but I'm using this to make him post more stuff'. Like, that is the number 1 way to get me to completely ignore your vote and not change anything.
Businessman, perhaps you should ISO me considering half of my game has been dedicated to my stance on Cyan. I mean come on.
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@Cyan Barning is a thing that townies do, you know.
Did you miss the part where I said that KJ just did the *exact* same thing when he and I were scum in The Wall 2?
And I would argue that he generally does not just barn people as town. In Wu Tang, he was town and I was scum, and he was on my case virtually the entire game. Almost unwaveringly so. Some insight from other players that were in the games that I am referencing(Seppel, WG, Sir Chris, etc) would be fantastic right now.
Quote from IMAB »
BE2 didn't say the tell doesn't exist. He said it's bad. Myself, BE2, Cantripmancer and WheatGrinder all saw it. That's four people saying it exists.
If it's not a town tell(it's not) and it's not a scum tell(it's not), then it is not actually a tell. Accordingly, it does not exist. Try to apply whatever nonsense semantics you want, my point was obvious. If you think it actually means something, you are wrong. If anyone thinks that, they are also wrong. Voting someone outside of the game does not mean anything and will not ever mean anything.
Quote from IMAB »
He says that the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy and then followed that up by claiming that OMGUS is scummy
Placing the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy. For very apparent reasons. It should not be done. And OMGUS can be, and in your case, was. It's amusing that you don't realize that you would very likely be dead right now if ZDS hadn't tried to distance himself from your wagon.
Quote from IMAB »
I have never called ZDS town. Never. I said "could be scumhunting"
So, what you're saying is that you OMGUSed ZDS too, you just tried to dress it up. Also, to Plowshares, you said:
Quote from IMAB »
Right I ignored you and zds but went after cyan because he's scum
This very clearly implies that plowshare and ZDS are not scum. You can't even keep your story straight from one post to the next. I find myself wishing that I were scum, because if I were and I knew you were town, you would be lynched at this point and no one would ever think twice about it, because you so obviously deserve it. Sadly I'm not, so I'm stuck with the unenviable position of dealing with your nonsense while I also try to get scum ZDS and scum Killjoy lynched.
I've mentioned this before in the other topic, but I was pretty checked out of the Wall for long periods of time. Interested to see what KJ says in response to the accusation though.
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Cyan can you please go into vivid detail what exactly makes a town BE uniquely different from a scum BE and how a scum BE is not in play here.
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Y'know, even if you are town just because you've been useless in the past doesn't mean you have to continue to be useless.
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Where I come from Cyan when one has a DISAGREEMENT about an ASSESSMENT they use big things called sentences to concisely voice that disagreement. But perhaps you are under the impression that your disapproval, vague and doom-like it is, makes up for not actually playing the game of mafia.
How about we stick with the whole discourse thing, it works well.
This makes me concerned. Bit of an overreaction to such a small bit of pressure from cyan. Dismissing a comment that is pretty generic seems unnecessary.
It's also worth pointing out that just barning another person is exactly what KJ did in the game we were just scum together in. He followed my suspicion on masterplum and then onto antny as well.
So I'm very happy now with the idea that KJ and ZDS are both scum.
Add Blindfaeth and Cantrip to the list of people that I like. And something about ZDS's tone makes be think that he is scum, so I'm currently more comfortable pursuing him rather than Chris.
And BE is right. Random voting someone not in the game is not a tell. It simply is not. If you think it is, you are flatly incorrect. This idea is so stupid that I don't even know where it came from. Like it is seriously just painfully ridiculous.
BE2 didn't say the tell doesn't exist. He said it's bad. Myself, BE2, Cantripmancer and WheatGrinder all saw it. That's four people saying it exists.
I understand why it could appear that I was being hypocritical in my vote on ZDS, after calling you out. The difference is that your vote on me was demonstrably awful, and my vote on ZDS was not(but his case was, which also helps).
If you want to see a vote that's demonstratably awful you should check out this one dude Cyan. He says that the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy and then followed that up by claiming that OMGUS is scummy. It was a hoot. Oh wait, that's you. Awkward...
And you're not even concerned that ZDS, one of the people you are proclaiming as town from all of this, has given up on me and moved on to Sir Chris instead.
I have never called ZDS town. Never. I said "could be scumhunting". How you equate that to a townread is beyond me.
How the hell can anyone think you're town? I'm flabbergasted. Like literally almost choked on my hamburger because I had to take a breath and couldn't believe I'm reading this *****. How the **** are you town?
Multiple people thinking zds is scum without voting. Let's get votes on him.
@Ima
I still don't trust cyan but I'm not convinced he's scum. It's difficult for me to gauge him because I've been fooled before.
ZDS:
You say you see Chris's meta-defense as genuine. Why does it seem genuine, since just saying "I don't see a scum!PERSONANAMEHERE" because he's not his scum meta isn't particularly difficult to fake.
And if you think he's not faking his meta defense, why are you voting Chris as of that post? You think scum would make that argument, beleive it, but end up null after all that?
And my "are you really afraid to be wrong" is because I'm at a loss as to other reasons to forgo commitment of an opinion. Ego is the only really viable one I can think of. It's not meant as an attack on him, but it's obvious from his posting he DOES have an ego. So I felt it was worth asking, at least.
Chris:
Yeah, I'm not gonna keep breaking your posts down. Quotes are such a pain.
My point, as ZDS points out, is that only do you not have any opinions, you're also refusing to analyze. That's part of why I'm saying you're fencesitting with fervor. You're not only not forming opinions, you're not taking steps toward forming opinions. You're not trying to. There's also an issue with you dismissing him for not doing some arbirtrary list of scummy things you seem to think he would always do as scum, despite you claiming to think he's a good player (therefore avoiding doing things he would only do as scum on a regular basis), so there's that.
Oh, and youu're whole "my lack of opinion is just like an opinion" is not gonna fly. Opinions require some measure of analysis. So, that's not true.
You don't think what he's done this game is worthy of notice in comparison to what he normally does. So, a question: What does he normally do that he's not doing this game? Why is the lack of that not scummy, and why can't he be scummy aside from those things?
You're doing this for some reason though, I can't see you doing all this without some form of agenda.
Two more questions: Have you ever been lynched as scum? and Have you ever been neutral on this site?
Also: How much experience do you have with ZDS?
Cyan
What is Chris doing that makes him remind you of his town self? Also how good of a player do you think he is? How well do you think he fakes his town meta?
What about our interactions says one of me and ZDS are likely scum? Edit: now you think we're both scum. Why?
Hm. When Ima says you cleared Kami based on nothing, your response was "So dumb". IIRC you haven't interacted with him at all this game. Why is he a strong town read?
Why would scum!ZDS put himself so far out there to do damage control this early? Isn't this sort of antibussing a bad idea in general?
Wait, you think I'm scum for barning ZDS? Because of the Wall? Explain that, please. Who did I barn in the Wall?
Also, if I'm so scum, why aren't you voting me?
Ima:
You asked KA what his thoughts were on Cyan saying a lot of people were acting scummy, and whether he thought that was genuine. My question for you is: What does KA's answer tell you about him? After he answers, I'd also like to know what you think about your own question.
Seppel
Where have you seen ZDS save buddies? Any examples?
-------------------------------------------
I'm liking Wheat and Plow.
I'm liking B_E less and less.
Same with ZDS.
I'm thinking the scum team is probablly in this pool:
ZDS
Cyan
B_E
Chris
Maybe ima?
Maybe Kami?
I also have specifically null reads on Roowastaken, hans, Cantrip, and hunt.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Plow if you feel he is scum why are you getting so frustrated? I would think you would be eager to keep pouncing upon him if you believe your cause is righteous. Why so much anger? It looks a bit like theatrics.
Because I tire very quickly of having my arguments misunderstood and/or misrepresented. I abhor explaining myself twice.
How much confidence do you have in that tell?
Would you, and do you, automatically vote anyone who commits it?
How much success have you had with it?
1. I have enough confidence in it to vote someone and see their reaction. It’s certainly not a 100% lock tell.
2. From a neutral-read position like the beginning of a game, yes. If I have a Town read already on someone, I may be inclined to simply note it and move on. It does usually make me nervous enough about someone to re-read them.
3. To be honest, I have no idea. I seem to remember using it once before – but I can’t remember where.
Quote from ZDS »
You are talking past each other. I believe he thinks your second point in #228 was a jab at him.
It was. He just doesn’t understand me or is being intentionally obtuse about it.
Ima:
You asked KA what his thoughts were on Cyan saying a lot of people were acting scummy, and whether he thought that was genuine. My question for you is: What does KA's answer tell you about him? After he answers, I'd also like to know what you think about your own question.
I actually don't need KA's answer. He's non-response in this instance was all I needed to know. I know there's been a lot of usage of tells and discussion of them. Some of them are accurate some of them are not. KA makes an awkward RVS to Cyan using "for the motherland" language. Huntzilla and Cantrip call it out immediately and eventually I understand why it's awkward as well. Scum will sometimes make pointless or fake RVS towards each other so that they don't actually have to make a contribution at the start of the game. This is the same reason why RVS to someone not in the game is a tell. Anyway after that point KAMI and Cyan both immediately pounce on me for ***** reasons. Cyan makes crap reason and Kami immediately back him up. I ask Kami some questions that he dodges around. After that they ignore each other completely. What caught my eye was Cyan calling Kami a strong townread based on absolutely no interactions and no buildup.
My question to Kami and then my question to Cyan was to literally try and pit them against each other. Kami and Cyan both absolutely skirted the questions even though they were both designed to pit them against each other. If you look at the game there have been a lot of townreads being thrown out early. Faster than I've ever seen personally. So when Cyan says "too many people are acting scummy" it really doesn't feel genuine. AND here is where I consider outside influence too. Several players have commented on the suposed skill of Cyan. If Cyan is this transcendent scum hunter he should be able to separate the "anti-town/bad town" from scum. I've seen phenomenal players. They do it all the time. So part of reason for the question is that Cyan is quite literally not living up to the hype.
I'm not sure what you mean by "what do you think about your own question". They're damn fine ones but obviously I'm biased.
Scum will sometimes make pointless or fake RVS towards each other so that they don't actually have to make a contribution at the start of the game.
Oh come the **** on. You can't complain about bad arguments from other players and then say this. You just can't. It's not allowed.
Re: Cyan's reputation: He's a good player in general, rather than specifically a good scum-hunter. He's the type of player who will regularly perform well no matter what role he gets or what side he's on.
That's an overreaction to a phrase where I said "sometimes".
@imab (post 346): then what's the context of "sometimes"? In what situations is an RVS towards another player an indicator of one or both players being scum? Without a good answer I'll have to assume that "sometimes" means "whenever I can use it against someone I think is scum", and that's just not strong enough.
@Cyan Barning is a thing that townies do, you know.
Did you miss the part where I said that KJ just did the *exact* same thing when he and I were scum in The Wall 2?
And I would argue that he generally does not just barn people as town. In Wu Tang, he was town and I was scum, and he was on my case virtually the entire game. Almost unwaveringly so. Some insight from other players that were in the games that I am referencing(Seppel, WG, Sir Chris, etc) would be fantastic right now.
Are you saying that you and KJ are scum together :Y
Killjoy is making pretty good points this game, and is pretty invested. It feels genuine to me.
I also feel that KJ is pretty obviously scum most of the time; I personally don't have the easiest time reading him (mostly because there's some sort of filter in my brain that makes me skim his posts even when they're short; I have no idea why but he flies under my radar every single game), but most people pick up on it when he's scum, and at that point I actually go back and look at him and agree. This game, most people aren't picking up scummy vibes and from what I've read of him I'm not either. I think it's very likely that he's town.
You not seeing it almost made me Cyanity Check vote you last night, until I realized that I still want Sir Chris dead first.
It's hard to read hans because he's a book written in Russian but using the Arabic alphabet, and all the chapter titles and footnotes are in hieroglyphs.
Add Blindfaeth and Cantrip to the list of people that I like. And something about ZDS's tone makes be think that he is scum, so I'm currently more comfortable pursuing him rather than Chris.
Hi hans, can you elaborate why you like me when we have literally opposite reads on everyone? O.o
Also this being my second game on this site and seeing it thrown around a lot I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the term barning to me. Thx!
@ZDS, why I hated that post? I think it's snarky, falsely confident. In general I think a lot of his early game was a lot of "let's all be friends no baddies here.. No no I'm good you're good were all good", at least that's how it reads to me.
@Plowshare: At this point, how relevant is the dissociation tell to your read on businessman? What else do you have against him? (I know I've seen you use other arguments, but they got drowned in the middle of all the screaming and the mafia theory, so it's a pain to isolate them from the noise)
The disassociative tell is still relevant in that it provides a framework within which to understand his future actions. The blatant ignoring of points against him in favor of trying to discredit one of the persons making them further illustrates the frame of reference for his thoughts and actions: he is coming from a point of resistance and not a point of cooperation. Put plainly, the disassoctive tell alone would not be enough for me to lynch someone but is enough for questioning and, combined with his other actions, enough to convince me of his guilt.
Also this being my second game on this site and seeing it thrown around a lot I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the term barning to me. Thx!
Barning is following someone else's lead or argument without adding anything original. It usually has a negative connotation. I'm unsure as to the origin of the term.
Barning is following someone else's lead or argument without adding anything original. It usually has a negative connotation. I'm unsure as to the origin of the term.
The origin would be "barnacle", the sea-faring crustacean that is fond of attaching itself to boats.
I'm starting to feel like pushing forward a lynch. I would still like Chris above all, but I'm okay with Cyan and Plow too.
I actually don't need KA's answer. He's non-response in this instance was all I needed to know. I know there's been a lot of usage of tells and discussion of them. Some of them are accurate some of them are not. KA makes an awkward RVS to Cyan using "for the motherland" language. Huntzilla and Cantrip call it out immediately and eventually I understand why it's awkward as well. Scum will sometimes make pointless or fake RVS towards each other so that they don't actually have to make a contribution at the start of the game. This is the same reason why RVS to someone not in the game is a tell. Anyway after that point KAMI and Cyan both immediately pounce on me for ***** reasons. Cyan makes crap reason and Kami immediately back him up. I ask Kami some questions that he dodges around. After that they ignore each other completely. What caught my eye was Cyan calling Kami a strong townread based on absolutely no interactions and no buildup.
My question to Kami and then my question to Cyan was to literally try and pit them against each other. Kami and Cyan both absolutely skirted the questions even though they were both designed to pit them against each other. If you look at the game there have been a lot of townreads being thrown out early. Faster than I've ever seen personally. So when Cyan says "too many people are acting scummy" it really doesn't feel genuine. AND here is where I consider outside influence too. Several players have commented on the suposed skill of Cyan. If Cyan is this transcendent scum hunter he should be able to separate the "anti-town/bad town" from scum. I've seen phenomenal players. They do it all the time. So part of reason for the question is that Cyan is quite literally not living up to the hype.
I'm not sure what you mean by "what do you think about your own question". They're damn fine ones but obviously I'm biased.
To be clear, you are arguing that Kami and I are scumbuddies, and that we independently decided to back each other, but didn't have any reason in mind why we would do so. We just figured we'd throw it out there and hope everything worked out. What about the early game post where Kami clearly details how he interprets my posts, and why this makes me town? What about the fact that I have also declared multiple other people town, not just Kami? In fact, I did so in the same post where I said I thought KA was town.
And then, just to further compound my own sheer idiocy in this arrangement, I decided that it would be a good idea to point out how I think that ZDS and KJ are scum because of their interactions. Even though, if you are correct, I had very similar interactions with someone in the game thread that is my scumbuddy.
Please let me know if this is correct. That way, I can feel comfortable ignoring everything that you say for the rest of the game. And probably any other game that we play in together. The amount of cherry picking that you had to do to try to make this argument is just completely unreal.
@Seppel: Why do you think Plow is scum?
@WG: Why do you think Sir Chris is scum? Why has every scum read you've had this game just been barning someone else?
@Kami: Why do you think that post indicates that KJ is town?
@WG: Why do you think Sir Chris is scum? Why has every scum read you've had this game just been barning someone else?
Unless I remember wrong, I was the first one on Chris. See post 96.
I'm on Chris because he sounds like an outsider. Many of his posts feel like he's on the outside looking in, and that's a scum mentality. Again, see post 96 for details.
@WG: Why do you think Sir Chris is scum? Why has every scum read you've had this game just been barning someone else?
Unless I remember wrong, I was the first one on Chris. See post 96.
I'm on Chris because he sounds like an outsider. Many of his posts feel like he's on the outside looking in, and that's a scum mentality. Again, see post 96 for details.
You're right, you were early onto Chris. I didn't realize this because your entire reason behind voting him was 'I really dislike Chris' posts. He's just so...terribly uninvested. He feels like he's a spectator.' This seems pretty similar to why people didn't like Chris in The Wall 2, and..he was town there. Is there anything else/more specific about his posting that you don't like?
You also commented on how you would have been willing to vote for myself or Plow, but 'Cyan's wagon is popular enough right now, a lot of people are also on Plowshares' case already too'.
Since when is this a good reason to NOT vote for someone? Since when is starting competing wagons a good thing to do when you're fine with the multiple existing wagons already?
Cyan: 1) I like that he's examining multiple people. 2) the questions and statements in each section feel like a genuine flow of consciousness. They're very "organic". 3) The questions he's asking look like they're designed to generate information - not to make someone look bad.
I seem to have mixed up what Plow and Blindfaeth did.
One of them called a slip and voted for someone. I asked that person to elaborate and they didn't. Then the other liked my vote, attributing it to the slip, and voted the other person.
I want to lynch the person who jumped on the wagon based off my kind-of-naked vote.
I seem to have mixed up what Plow and Blindfaeth did.
One of them called a slip and voted for someone. I asked that person to elaborate and they didn't. Then the other liked my vote, attributing it to the slip, and voted the other person.
I want to lynch the person who jumped on the wagon based off my kind-of-naked vote.
@imab (post 346): then what's the context of "sometimes"? In what situations is an RVS towards another player an indicator of one or both players being scum? Without a good answer I'll have to assume that "sometimes" means "whenever I can use it against someone I think is scum", and that's just not strong enough.
RVS isn't always just RVS. It's one tool among many.
The method of Kami's RVS was awkward. This can be confirmed by several players.
Kami and Cyan then proceeded to ignore each other all game. This can be confirmed by analyzing the game.
Then Cyan calls Kami "STRONG TOWNREAD" based off absolutely no interactions whatsoever.
It's a body of work and if you feel that this is not a good enough reason then so be it. I still think they're a scum pair.
@WG: Why do you think Sir Chris is scum? Why has every scum read you've had this game just been barning someone else?
Unless I remember wrong, I was the first one on Chris. See post 96.
I'm on Chris because he sounds like an outsider. Many of his posts feel like he's on the outside looking in, and that's a scum mentality. Again, see post 96 for details.
You're right, you were early onto Chris. I didn't realize this because your entire reason behind voting him was 'I really dislike Chris' posts. He's just so...terribly uninvested. He feels like he's a spectator.' This seems pretty similar to why people didn't like Chris in The Wall 2, and..he was town there. Is there anything else/more specific about his posting that you don't like?
You also commented on how you would have been willing to vote for myself or Plow, but 'Cyan's wagon is popular enough right now, a lot of people are also on Plowshares' case already too'.
Since when is this a good reason to NOT vote for someone? Since when is starting competing wagons a good thing to do when you're fine with the multiple existing wagons already?
But he's like...super uninvested. Like incredibly even-for-Sir-Chris uninvested.
I also feel like he's your buddy, but I'd have to look back to remember why I felt you and Chris were aligned.
I voted for Chris over you and Plowshares back then because I wanted pressure on all my scumreads. There was only one scumread of mine not being pressured, so I went with him. Also, it was very early on Day 1; who cares about settling the wagons that early over getting good reads? Answer: I don't.
Hunt is town like you, me, and Cantripmancer.
BE2 didn't say the tell doesn't exist. He said it's bad. Myself, BE2, Cantripmancer and WheatGrinder all saw it. That's four people saying it exists.
If you want to see a vote that's demonstratably awful you should check out this one dude Cyan. He says that the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy and then followed that up by claiming that OMGUS is scummy. It was a hoot. Oh wait, that's you. Awkward...
I have never called ZDS town. Never. I said "could be scumhunting". How you equate that to a townread is beyond me.
How the hell can anyone think you're town? I'm flabbergasted. Like literally almost choked on my hamburger because I had to take a breath and couldn't believe I'm reading this *****. How the **** are you town?
People get really frustrated at their scumreads. Like, all the time.
Also, I don't like how Chris voted me and then said really soon 'I'm not sure of B_E's alignment but I'm using this to make him post more stuff'. Like, that is the number 1 way to get me to completely ignore your vote and not change anything.
Yo, Sir Chris. Do you think Cyan is scum? If not I need to know why not.
Hey Hawk. I know we haven't spoken this game. But I'm gonna ask you to put your vote on Cyan 'cuz he's scum.
I apologize for any inconvenience. I'd really like a Cyan lynch now.
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2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Did you miss the part where I said that KJ just did the *exact* same thing when he and I were scum in The Wall 2?
And I would argue that he generally does not just barn people as town. In Wu Tang, he was town and I was scum, and he was on my case virtually the entire game. Almost unwaveringly so. Some insight from other players that were in the games that I am referencing(Seppel, WG, Sir Chris, etc) would be fantastic right now.
If it's not a town tell(it's not) and it's not a scum tell(it's not), then it is not actually a tell. Accordingly, it does not exist. Try to apply whatever nonsense semantics you want, my point was obvious. If you think it actually means something, you are wrong. If anyone thinks that, they are also wrong. Voting someone outside of the game does not mean anything and will not ever mean anything.
Placing the second vote on someone during RVS is scummy. For very apparent reasons. It should not be done. And OMGUS can be, and in your case, was. It's amusing that you don't realize that you would very likely be dead right now if ZDS hadn't tried to distance himself from your wagon.
So, what you're saying is that you OMGUSed ZDS too, you just tried to dress it up. Also, to Plowshares, you said:
This very clearly implies that plowshare and ZDS are not scum. You can't even keep your story straight from one post to the next. I find myself wishing that I were scum, because if I were and I knew you were town, you would be lynched at this point and no one would ever think twice about it, because you so obviously deserve it. Sadly I'm not, so I'm stuck with the unenviable position of dealing with your nonsense while I also try to get scum ZDS and scum Killjoy lynched.
They're null. Get lynched.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also the town should probably get its ***** together, the deadlines are short.
Cyan can you please go into vivid detail what exactly makes a town BE uniquely different from a scum BE and how a scum BE is not in play here.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also that staring is creepy bro.
Also I repeat my invitation to read Dinosaurs Lost in Time/uPick/Xymande/Walking Dead.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
He sounds more like a MRA to me. :/
This makes me concerned. Bit of an overreaction to such a small bit of pressure from cyan. Dismissing a comment that is pretty generic seems unnecessary.
Outdated Mafia Stats
I hate that this is so accurate.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Multiple people thinking zds is scum without voting. Let's get votes on him.
@Ima
I still don't trust cyan but I'm not convinced he's scum. It's difficult for me to gauge him because I've been fooled before.
Outdated Mafia Stats
You say you see Chris's meta-defense as genuine. Why does it seem genuine, since just saying "I don't see a scum!PERSONANAMEHERE" because he's not his scum meta isn't particularly difficult to fake.
And if you think he's not faking his meta defense, why are you voting Chris as of that post? You think scum would make that argument, beleive it, but end up null after all that?
And my "are you really afraid to be wrong" is because I'm at a loss as to other reasons to forgo commitment of an opinion. Ego is the only really viable one I can think of. It's not meant as an attack on him, but it's obvious from his posting he DOES have an ego. So I felt it was worth asking, at least.
Chris:
Yeah, I'm not gonna keep breaking your posts down. Quotes are such a pain.
My point, as ZDS points out, is that only do you not have any opinions, you're also refusing to analyze. That's part of why I'm saying you're fencesitting with fervor. You're not only not forming opinions, you're not taking steps toward forming opinions. You're not trying to. There's also an issue with you dismissing him for not doing some arbirtrary list of scummy things you seem to think he would always do as scum, despite you claiming to think he's a good player (therefore avoiding doing things he would only do as scum on a regular basis), so there's that.
Oh, and youu're whole "my lack of opinion is just like an opinion" is not gonna fly. Opinions require some measure of analysis. So, that's not true.
You don't think what he's done this game is worthy of notice in comparison to what he normally does. So, a question: What does he normally do that he's not doing this game? Why is the lack of that not scummy, and why can't he be scummy aside from those things?
You're doing this for some reason though, I can't see you doing all this without some form of agenda.
Two more questions: Have you ever been lynched as scum? and Have you ever been neutral on this site?
Also: How much experience do you have with ZDS?
Cyan
What is Chris doing that makes him remind you of his town self? Also how good of a player do you think he is? How well do you think he fakes his town meta?
What about our interactions says one of me and ZDS are likely scum? Edit: now you think we're both scum. Why?
Hm. When Ima says you cleared Kami based on nothing, your response was "So dumb". IIRC you haven't interacted with him at all this game. Why is he a strong town read?
Why would scum!ZDS put himself so far out there to do damage control this early? Isn't this sort of antibussing a bad idea in general?
Wait, you think I'm scum for barning ZDS? Because of the Wall? Explain that, please. Who did I barn in the Wall?
Also, if I'm so scum, why aren't you voting me?
Ima:
You asked KA what his thoughts were on Cyan saying a lot of people were acting scummy, and whether he thought that was genuine. My question for you is: What does KA's answer tell you about him? After he answers, I'd also like to know what you think about your own question.
Seppel
Where have you seen ZDS save buddies? Any examples?
-------------------------------------------
I'm liking Wheat and Plow.
I'm liking B_E less and less.
Same with ZDS.
I'm thinking the scum team is probablly in this pool:
ZDS
Cyan
B_E
Chris
Maybe ima?
Maybe Kami?
I also have specifically null reads on Roowastaken, hans, Cantrip, and hunt.
Why for?
I’m not having a meltdown per se; more like a volcanic explosion. Or a stroke.
Hunt uses this type of language all the time as Town. It comes from a mindset of non-confidence, not hedging.
1. I have enough confidence in it to vote someone and see their reaction. It’s certainly not a 100% lock tell.
2. From a neutral-read position like the beginning of a game, yes. If I have a Town read already on someone, I may be inclined to simply note it and move on. It does usually make me nervous enough about someone to re-read them.
3. To be honest, I have no idea. I seem to remember using it once before – but I can’t remember where.
It was. He just doesn’t understand me or is being intentionally obtuse about it.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I actually don't need KA's answer. He's non-response in this instance was all I needed to know. I know there's been a lot of usage of tells and discussion of them. Some of them are accurate some of them are not. KA makes an awkward RVS to Cyan using "for the motherland" language. Huntzilla and Cantrip call it out immediately and eventually I understand why it's awkward as well. Scum will sometimes make pointless or fake RVS towards each other so that they don't actually have to make a contribution at the start of the game. This is the same reason why RVS to someone not in the game is a tell. Anyway after that point KAMI and Cyan both immediately pounce on me for ***** reasons. Cyan makes crap reason and Kami immediately back him up. I ask Kami some questions that he dodges around. After that they ignore each other completely. What caught my eye was Cyan calling Kami a strong townread based on absolutely no interactions and no buildup.
My question to Kami and then my question to Cyan was to literally try and pit them against each other. Kami and Cyan both absolutely skirted the questions even though they were both designed to pit them against each other. If you look at the game there have been a lot of townreads being thrown out early. Faster than I've ever seen personally. So when Cyan says "too many people are acting scummy" it really doesn't feel genuine. AND here is where I consider outside influence too. Several players have commented on the suposed skill of Cyan. If Cyan is this transcendent scum hunter he should be able to separate the "anti-town/bad town" from scum. I've seen phenomenal players. They do it all the time. So part of reason for the question is that Cyan is quite literally not living up to the hype.
I'm not sure what you mean by "what do you think about your own question". They're damn fine ones but obviously I'm biased.
That's an overreaction to a phrase where I said "sometimes".
Are you saying that you and KJ are scum together :Y
Killjoy is making pretty good points this game, and is pretty invested. It feels genuine to me.
I also feel that KJ is pretty obviously scum most of the time; I personally don't have the easiest time reading him (mostly because there's some sort of filter in my brain that makes me skim his posts even when they're short; I have no idea why but he flies under my radar every single game), but most people pick up on it when he's scum, and at that point I actually go back and look at him and agree. This game, most people aren't picking up scummy vibes and from what I've read of him I'm not either. I think it's very likely that he's town.
You not seeing it almost made me Cyanity Check vote you last night, until I realized that I still want Sir Chris dead first.
It's hard to read hans because he's a book written in Russian but using the Arabic alphabet, and all the chapter titles and footnotes are in hieroglyphs.
Hi hans, can you elaborate why you like me when we have literally opposite reads on everyone? O.o
Also this being my second game on this site and seeing it thrown around a lot I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the term barning to me. Thx!
@ZDS, why I hated that post? I think it's snarky, falsely confident. In general I think a lot of his early game was a lot of "let's all be friends no baddies here.. No no I'm good you're good were all good", at least that's how it reads to me.
Barning is following someone else's lead or argument without adding anything original. It usually has a negative connotation. I'm unsure as to the origin of the term.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Seppel:
?
Because I think Plow is scum.
Unvote, vote Plow
And ZDS tried to save me in Science Mafia and we both went down in flames.
The origin would be "barnacle", the sea-faring crustacean that is fond of attaching itself to boats.
I'm starting to feel like pushing forward a lynch. I would still like Chris above all, but I'm okay with Cyan and Plow too.
To be clear, you are arguing that Kami and I are scumbuddies, and that we independently decided to back each other, but didn't have any reason in mind why we would do so. We just figured we'd throw it out there and hope everything worked out. What about the early game post where Kami clearly details how he interprets my posts, and why this makes me town? What about the fact that I have also declared multiple other people town, not just Kami? In fact, I did so in the same post where I said I thought KA was town.
And then, just to further compound my own sheer idiocy in this arrangement, I decided that it would be a good idea to point out how I think that ZDS and KJ are scum because of their interactions. Even though, if you are correct, I had very similar interactions with someone in the game thread that is my scumbuddy.
Please let me know if this is correct. That way, I can feel comfortable ignoring everything that you say for the rest of the game. And probably any other game that we play in together. The amount of cherry picking that you had to do to try to make this argument is just completely unreal.
@Seppel: Why do you think Plow is scum?
@WG: Why do you think Sir Chris is scum? Why has every scum read you've had this game just been barning someone else?
@Kami: Why do you think that post indicates that KJ is town?
Unless I remember wrong, I was the first one on Chris. See post 96.
I'm on Chris because he sounds like an outsider. Many of his posts feel like he's on the outside looking in, and that's a scum mentality. Again, see post 96 for details.
You're right, you were early onto Chris. I didn't realize this because your entire reason behind voting him was 'I really dislike Chris' posts. He's just so...terribly uninvested. He feels like he's a spectator.' This seems pretty similar to why people didn't like Chris in The Wall 2, and..he was town there. Is there anything else/more specific about his posting that you don't like?
You also commented on how you would have been willing to vote for myself or Plow, but 'Cyan's wagon is popular enough right now, a lot of people are also on Plowshares' case already too'.
Since when is this a good reason to NOT vote for someone? Since when is starting competing wagons a good thing to do when you're fine with the multiple existing wagons already?
Roo: what?
See Plow's 343... Dude just gets me...
Unvote
I seem to have mixed up what Plow and Blindfaeth did.
One of them called a slip and voted for someone. I asked that person to elaborate and they didn't. Then the other liked my vote, attributing it to the slip, and voted the other person.
I want to lynch the person who jumped on the wagon based off my kind-of-naked vote.
That's a vote. On some sites, you just bold a name to vote for that person.
You should just vote for scum-ZDS instead.
Hello Roo,
You should read the first post for how you need to vote in this game.
RVS isn't always just RVS. It's one tool among many.
The method of Kami's RVS was awkward. This can be confirmed by several players.
Kami and Cyan then proceeded to ignore each other all game. This can be confirmed by analyzing the game.
Then Cyan calls Kami "STRONG TOWNREAD" based off absolutely no interactions whatsoever.
It's a body of work and if you feel that this is not a good enough reason then so be it. I still think they're a scum pair.
Vote: ZDS
He's probably scum--unless he's not.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Vote: ZDS
He's probably scum--unless he's not.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
I will attempt to catch up tomorrow. In the meantime, I see what looks like a lot of votes for ZDS, so...
@Mod: Votecount, please?
and holy god 9 to lynch?? this will never happen
Vote: ZDS
He's probably scum--unless he's not.
But he's like...super uninvested. Like incredibly even-for-Sir-Chris uninvested.
I also feel like he's your buddy, but I'd have to look back to remember why I felt you and Chris were aligned.
I voted for Chris over you and Plowshares back then because I wanted pressure on all my scumreads. There was only one scumread of mine not being pressured, so I went with him. Also, it was very early on Day 1; who cares about settling the wagons that early over getting good reads? Answer: I don't.