Just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right, nor does it make me 'dumb'.
To whit: I disagree with CM. Placing the second vote on someone in RVS, in the manner in which YOU did so, is scummy.
Though in your case it's become apparent that you're just a bad player that thinks he isn't a bad player, so 'tells' committed by you aren't as relevant. I also can't see you and ZDS both being scum(and CM's post is all the reason/evidence that ANYONE should need to vote ZDS), so enjoy your free pass.
And where I'm from when a Vanilla Townie claims they get lynched in order to prevent any PR's from getting outed+it's the most common scum fakeclaim. Although I realize my wording was terrible.
Had a busy few days, much more time the next few days heading into deadline, haven't even had time to go into ZDS' meta yet.
Also yeah, I have been called wordy basically every game I have been in. I'm just a wordy person, I write for a career so sometimes I get started and don't stop for awhile.
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Yo're right in this regard. VT claims should get lynched, and they typically do. Though I would argue that the most common scum false-claim on here is Doc(largely because VT claims rarely save anyone).
But the KA wagon wasn't that great to begin with, and he doesn't seem like the type of player that would fake a 'vanilla town softclaim'. Assuming he even read the first post. Which he could have, or could not have..we have no idea.
In my case, it helps that my scum read on ZDS is infinitely stronger than it ever was on KA. And if ZDS does flip town somehow, we can hope that KA gets vigged, or we can deal with him later. It's not like he is forever unlynchable here.
28: Hunt, why did you vote Kami here? I think I know, but I want to make sure.
The Russian comment, I wanted to get a sense of where it came from for him, so I jumped on it to see what I could scare up. The whole point was to see if it was a reference to the Vanilla role pm...
Which again it seemed like it was for him and Cyan... hence why I feel they are townie...
I would vote ZDS over the rest if we aren't sticking to the Imab guns...
311: I have a pretty solid townread on you, Huntz, but "I could get on board with a Scum!BE lynch"? Really? I could get on board with a Scum!Cyan lynch, or a Scum!Chris lynch, but count me out of the lynch if either of them are Town. That seems like a really odd way to phrase it.
Multiple posts of his have given me a lot of pause. I could go with an IMAB lynch, too, esp with #539.
Point taken... Looking back I meant that I could get behind the B_E lynch if the scummy behavior kept up. What I was saying was that he was lean scum at best for me, so if he continued to scum! level than I would be happy for it....
Also,
If you want Imab lynched too... please join that wagon. I like it way better than a ZDS lynch... ZDS is just the second best option of the three given to us at this time...
28: Hunt, why did you vote Kami here? I think I know, but I want to make sure.
The Russian comment, I wanted to get a sense of where it came from for him, so I jumped on it to see what I could scare up. The whole point was to see if it was a reference to the Vanilla role pm...
Which again it seemed like it was for him and Cyan... hence why I feel they are townie...
I would vote ZDS over the rest if we aren't sticking to the Imab guns...
ZDS has more votes, and IMAB is, by far, the more likely of the two to just LOOK scummy because he is playing poorly(due to actual poor play or inexperience or whatever). ZDS doesn't get those benefits of the doubt, because he is not a poor player, nor is he inexperienced with the meta, etc.
I just got done reading a fair bit of ZDS's last scum game and he sounds positively nothing like he does here. His posts today sound infinitely more definitive than some of the double speak he used day one in that game. Also this whole 'got to kill the strong, slippery player' thing is reminding me of the Iso train in the XKCD game, where Cyan was scum. I remember Generic and Rhand being happy to join in on that, but I forget what Cyan's stance on it was while it was happening.
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His posts today sound infinitely more definitive than some of the double speak he used day one in that game
His posts do not sound at ALL definitive. Like..not even a little. What are you even reading? Go read one of his town games and try to tell me, with a straight face, that they are comparable.
Also this whole 'got to kill the strong, slippery player' thing is reminding me of the Iso train in the XKCD game, where Cyan was scum. I remember Generic and Rhand being happy to join in on that, but I forget what Cyan's stance on it was while it was happening.
Feel free to go read my interactions with that wagon and get back to me.
For real. I would literally volunteer to die right now, day-vigged on the spot if it were possible, if it meant that ZDS would 100% get lynched today(barring a couple of very specific role possibilities getting him out of it). Giving up a townie is always worth netting a scum. And I am dead set positive that ZDS is scum here. If he gets lynched and flips town and we have a vig, I give them permission to shoot me.
In his last scum game he literally had the nerve to tell someone that because they disagreed with his thoughts on them that his own thoughts were invalidated and that person could be scum. It was pretty cringe.
But sure I'll take a look at his town game as well.
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Quick research shows you opposed the Iso wagon as scum, so the vibe is just a coincidence since the scum players who fostered that reasoning aren't in the game. Noted.
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Okay so I read a lot of his game in MTGS Mafia Redux and I have no idea what the **** you're seeing Cyan. Or what I'm supposed to be seeing. He seems pretty close to his town meta to me. I think if you are being genuine here you just got too hyped up on your own fumes or something. I 100% do not see the meta argument against ZDS,
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Like he's aggressive, he's snarky, he's biting, he uses his vote early and often. This game also features a scum Cyan voting for a town ZDS, and to your credit you sound a billion times more convicted than you ever did in that game.
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Busing is a thing that exists. Not saying that I or Imab are bussing, but you should consider the possibility at least.
Also, your case on me is total crap. Like there's so much baloney that I'm not even gonna attempt to answer it.
Posts are also a thing that exists. You should read them at least.
If BE2 and Kami are scum together, then that is the worst bus vote EVER. It reads as effectively "I don't wanna, but I guess I have to..." which is exactly how a buddy would think, but not at all how he would post.
If my case is crap, then show me where. Hand-waving it away only strengthens my resolve. Ask your buddy imab how that ends up.
So the crux of the difference, to you, is a amatter of impact:
* BE2 is only reading surface deep, but is following those reads and is, thus, relevant (Light Town)
* Kami is weakly pushing to avoid having to follow up and is, thus, irrelevant (Scum)
Replace "Kami is weakly pushing" with "Kami is weakly making his presence known", and you have the gist of it, yes.
Okay, awesome. Follow up question: Why is relevancy a tell? Specifically, why is relevancy a strong enough tell to illicit the force of attack you have aimed at Kami? I have seen the roles, as you ascribe them to BE2 and Kami, reversed a number of times with regards to alignment.
We still have people not on either myself or ZDS. Blindfaeth in particular hasn't posted in 3 days. Killjoy said he'd be V/LA 2 days ago. Those of you who are actually here and not voting one of us need to make up your minds, or explain what you're waiting for - there's no chance of any other lynch at this point.
Long story short, it's all about intent. Burning_Earth shows signs of intending to help the town lynch scum/not lynch town. KamikazeArchon shows signs of intending to help himself look innocuous while the game progresses regardless of his input.
I agree that intent is supremely important, but I could not disagree more with your conclusion here. BE2's only intent is to make decisions seemingly out of thin air and ride them. His reads are completely devoid of depth and show, to me, a large amount of predisposition. The only reason for someone to enter a game with a predisposition towards a player's alignment is if they already know alignments. You call it paranoia, I call it causality based on observed actions. I would also argue that Kami's contributions have infinitely exceeded BE2's (because anything is infinitely better than zero) and, thus, Kami has been infinitely more impactful and relevant. I agreed with you that Kami's play had been exceedingly light, superficial even. I still do. His latest post, #570, shows that he missed the mod saying BF is replacing out and adds nothing to the discussion that hasn't already been discussed. However, what you see as intent to "help him look innocuous," I see as intent for caution or, at worst, laziness - both Null tells in my book as far as intent goes. I cannot reconcile how you could compare BE and Kami and come out with the polar opposite reads you have here. I seem to be in a logical pickle here:
Who-to-lynch Gallup 1.5 Hiding behind the masks, few of the people invited to the masquerade were watching as these events (that would be soon in front pages of all newspapers) were unfolding right before their eyes. The gears of revolution were already turning. Soon, loud noise came from the clock signaling the midnight. They were all waiting for the 12th strike to give them the signal.
Then it would all being.
-----
Cyan (0):
imabusinessman (1): Huntzilla
Burning_Earth2 (0):
ZeDorkSlippeur (6): hansanator, Cyan, KamikazeArchon, 7hawk77, Cantripmancer, Plowshares
Plowshares (0):
Sir Chris (2): Wheat_Grinder, Killjoy
Wheat_Grinder (2): Blindfaeth, Burning_Earth2
7hawk77 (0):
KamikazeArchon (4): ZeDorkSlippeur, Seppel, Sir Chris, imabusinessman
Blindfaeth(0):
hansanator(0):
Seppel(0):
Roowastaken(0):
Killjoy(0):
Cantripmancer(0):
Huntzilla(0):
----
Not voting(1): Roowastaken
Deadline: May 22
With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch!
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Also modgaming Bur setups is kind of treading down a dark path
It's a rare day when a scum has someone town reading them off of meta (like I did from gatecrash) only for the scum to go "no no, that's actually a bad scum game to meta me off of. Look for others."
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It's a rare day when a scum has someone town reading them off of meta (like I did from gatecrash) only for the scum to go "no no, that's actually a bad scum game to meta me off of. Look for others."
It's a rare day when someone does this period, so, I don't know why this matters. For all we know, he could think that your assessment of the similarities is bad, and he doesn't want other people to look at the game. Ultimately I think that this is null.
What scum game do you think he is similar to, Cyan?
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I've never been in a game where he was scum, I don't believe. So I don't necessarily think he is similar to any of his scum games. But I think his behavior is hugely different from what I have experienced from him as town. I honestly don't know how you can say that he has taken a bunch of definitive stances. When I read his posts, I get literally the exact opposite of this.
It's how he phrases things to me. He comes off very convicted to me when he talks about the game state. The whole roundabout where he went from voting for me to breaking kj and I up felt genuine to me. I'm usually pretty good at spotting scum manipulating me and I didn't get that vibe at all.
Plus to his credit Kami has just done nothing of worth this entire game. I don't see how someone can look over Kami's posts and go "town." He's the one that's not living up to his meta.
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This game has 16 players. I would argue that 10 of them have done little to nothing of worth for the entire game, even though some of them have posted frequently. That doesn't mean that much.
I thought that CM's points on ZDS were superbly relevant. Like I would literally call it a slam dunk.
And I don't think ZDS was trying to manipulate you. I don't think he was ever that committed to your wagon. He just needed a convenient excuse to get away from mine(yes yes, ego..in context I feel that this makes sense).
Yeah ZDS' exit of a couple of wagons was pretty soft, but looking back at his town game he changed his vote a crap ton there too for even shallower reasons. It's one of the things I paid attention to. Also I believe CM conceded I made a compelling case for ZDS to be town, even if he ultimately disagree with it.
The good news Cyan is if ZDS is town I think there is no way in hell you're scum. You aren't so brave to be this all in as scum, I feel. I've seen your cowardly scum heart, this feels much different.
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I personally hope every single person we lynch is scum and then we can have banners and eat cookies and celebrate the good times.
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Thanks for the unneeded qualification, without it I wouldn't be sure where you stood on ZDS.
I tend to vote bad players early to get it out of my system. I really am 100% against lynching town at any point, I know some think it can be good but I find that logic usually gross.
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ZDS's game in Avatars does in fact look pretty similar to his play so far here. One difference I noticed in the first few pages of my isolation of him though is he was much neater in that game. Nicer, more willing to give 'tips' to players in order to help them along. At this point I may just be experiencing confirmation bias but I feel as if ZDS this game has been very... brutal at times. Merciless, even. He gave off a very 'kind' vibe in Avatars when responding to people, even in disagreement. To compare the this game and that one he seems much more hands on this game. Like a man holding someone under water and getting splashes of water on his clothes while he waits for them to die beneath his grasp versus someone who orders the hit without carrying it out himself.
I don't know why I get the mental image of ZDS killing someone this game, but there you go.
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well that thing that I had going on is finally out of the way. Terribly sorry for any headaches induced by my abscence. So I suppose I need to play catch up never fun. But y'know fresh eyes. Hopefully I canmake myself usefull. Now dont ask me why But i did not check to see if I was replaced so I am gonna do that.
I just finished movie hopping. I saw mad max, avengers, and ex machina. Ex machina was so good I regret sneaking into the theater to see it. If you haven't seen it yet please do, it's a great film. I'm posting this from popeye's chicken.
I'm really bad at convincing people of my thoughts. I basically refuted him earlier on why he was posting garbo and isn't of town mind set, maybe look at that if you want some evidence.
Like he's aggressive, he's snarky, he's biting, he uses his vote early and often. This game also features a scum Cyan voting for a town ZDS, and to your credit you sound a billion times more convicted than you ever did in that game.
1) There are many players who make snap reads that they don't explain much. Seppel typically does this for example. What makes Burning_Earth's reads fake, when obviously such players cannot be scum in every game ever? Other than the fact you don't agree with some of these reads.
2) I'll be blunt, and condescending.
Your method of finding scum relies on "scum tells", as described at the beginning of Az's article on behavioural analysis. See #35 ("dissociative slip"), #86 (OMGUS). These two tells were the core of your case on iamabusinessman, which you pushed vehemently for a good chunk of the Day. You have a good understanding of the theory behind these tells and will explain them to anyone who asks; in fact, a large part of your modus operandi when pushing against iamabusinessman was to repeatedly explain, ad nauseam, why he committed the dissociative slip tell and the OMGUS tell, and why these are valid tells and therefore imab is scum for committing them.
With Burning_Earth, who did not commit a clear cut "scum tell", you tried a different method which was to assess the "depth" of his reads. Your analysis unfortunately comes down to: "there is no visible (ie: written) depth to BE2's reads, therefore BE2's reads are shallow, therefore BE2's reads are fake". Which is extremely simplistic. More importantly, whereas you have an easy time explaining the theory behind classic scum tells, when it comes to explaining or justifying your assessment of BE2's reads, you... don't. You simply state that, to you (subjective), BE2's reads look predetermined. Your language shows nothing of the certainty you had when you were accusing imab. This means you are not as much at ease with this style of analysis as you are with using classic scum tells, and you know it. How can you tell if a read is predetermined? This is the core of your scum read on BE2, and yet, it's also the missing link in your argument.
It could be that your reads are right and my reads are wrong, but one thing that is for sure is that I am infinitely more comfortable than you when using behavioural or holistic analysis (because anything is infinitely better than zero). So when you say my analysis is wrong for no reason other than that you have a different opinion, I'm sorry but I have to scoff. You have every right to prefer using classic scum tells over behavioural analysis (aka "intent guesswork"), but when you decide to use a method of analysis you don't grasp very well, and you decide to go up against someone who does (at least more than you), have the humility to listen to and learn from them. This is not a simple matter of disagreement, this is a matter of me knowing what I am doing and you... not so much.
I know I am being rude, and I know I'll look ridiculous if I'm wrong on some of those reads, but oh well. We will both survive. To me your vote comes down to "ZDS is scum because he disagrees with me when using a method of analysis that I am terrible at using myself". Yeah, who would have guessed that we'd reach different conclusions. I don't blame you for scum reading imab based on classic scum tells (which I am not comfortable with using, myself), don't blame me for town reading imab and BE2 based on holistic analysis and intent guesswork.
End of rant.
1) First, comparing Seppel to anyone is never going to work. Second, BE2, of his own admission, is dumb. Why would someone who is admittedly dumb make snap decisions? The most likely answer is predisposition. It's not that snap reads are bad as such, but you don't get to parade your own ignorance through the middle of the city and then make snap reads like an expert. Someone who has enough self-awareness to call out their own ignorance should not have thee confidence to make and ride snap decisions. It doesn't jive.
2) This is actually one of the most well-drawn up points I've ever seen and has actually made me think more about my own playstyle, so thank you. You are not wrong about some of the larger points; I am more confident in my scum read of imab than I am in my scum read of BE2. However, I will contend some of the finer points of the why. It's not, as you say, a matter of "scum tell" vs "behavioral analysis," but a matter of weighting (for lack of a better way to put it). My method of analysis is to take an observed action (intentional or otherwise) and try to work backwards to determine the mindset most likely to have led to said action. The context within which the action, or series of actions, occurred provides a lens through which to see the mindset. We've both been playing long enough to know there are usually both Town and Scum justifications for anything. The trick is determining which is more likely. I feel it is much more likely that BE2 is making snap decisions because of a predetermined disposition due to knowing player alignments than he is making snap decisions because he is confident enough in his skills as an analyst. You disagree. I am humble enough to know that I am not as good a player as you, nor nearly as experienced. This is why I tried to talk to you about it. It's why I kept talking back and forth with you about Kami and about BE2. I see where you are coming from, and I think you're wrong. It's that simple.
You are, by no means, my scummiest read. Like I said in my previous post, I think imab and BE2 are CONSIDERABLY more likely to be scum. But I can't get a wagon on them to finish before the deadline. Here is my thought process in communicative math terms:
Scum=BE2
BE2=/=Kami (therefore Kami must be Town)
Kami=/=ZDS (therefore ZDS must be Scum)
Yes, I realize that's bad, and I would MUCH rather Lynch imab or BE2 to prove the premise. However, Lynching you is preferable to a No Lynch or a Lynch on Kami.
1) First, comparing Seppel to anyone is never going to work. Second, BE2, of his own admission, is dumb. Why would someone who is admittedly dumb make snap decisions? The most likely answer is predisposition.
Nullread on plowshares decimated!!! He's scum and I'm sorry I didn't see it earlier.
Dude, Hanlon's razor. Everything he says makes sense if he genuinely took BE2's joke at face value.
But that doesn't line up with "why would a dumb person make a snap decision". Like there are all kinds of playstyles. Smart and experienced players can take a methodological choice. Dumb people can make snap decisions. That just doesn't jive at all. And then to attribute it to predisposition instead of playstyle difference? If anything, plowshares himself has been predisposed to making decisions.
I realized something and I no longer think KA is scum. Let's all lynch zds.
Hawk, even if you feel you're not good at convincing people of your arguments, could you at share this with us. At least give us something to think about?
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To whit: I disagree with CM. Placing the second vote on someone in RVS, in the manner in which YOU did so, is scummy.
Though in your case it's become apparent that you're just a bad player that thinks he isn't a bad player, so 'tells' committed by you aren't as relevant. I also can't see you and ZDS both being scum(and CM's post is all the reason/evidence that ANYONE should need to vote ZDS), so enjoy your free pass.
Also yeah, I have been called wordy basically every game I have been in. I'm just a wordy person, I write for a career so sometimes I get started and don't stop for awhile.
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But the KA wagon wasn't that great to begin with, and he doesn't seem like the type of player that would fake a 'vanilla town softclaim'. Assuming he even read the first post. Which he could have, or could not have..we have no idea.
In my case, it helps that my scum read on ZDS is infinitely stronger than it ever was on KA. And if ZDS does flip town somehow, we can hope that KA gets vigged, or we can deal with him later. It's not like he is forever unlynchable here.
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The Russian comment, I wanted to get a sense of where it came from for him, so I jumped on it to see what I could scare up. The whole point was to see if it was a reference to the Vanilla role pm...
Which again it seemed like it was for him and Cyan... hence why I feel they are townie...
I would vote ZDS over the rest if we aren't sticking to the Imab guns...
Point taken... Looking back I meant that I could get behind the B_E lynch if the scummy behavior kept up. What I was saying was that he was lean scum at best for me, so if he continued to scum! level than I would be happy for it....
Also,
If you want Imab lynched too... please join that wagon. I like it way better than a ZDS lynch... ZDS is just the second best option of the three given to us at this time...
ZDS has more votes, and IMAB is, by far, the more likely of the two to just LOOK scummy because he is playing poorly(due to actual poor play or inexperience or whatever). ZDS doesn't get those benefits of the doubt, because he is not a poor player, nor is he inexperienced with the meta, etc.
Busing is a thing that exists. Not saying that I or Imab are bussing, but you should consider the possibility at least.
Also, your case on me is total crap. Like there's so much baloney that I'm not even gonna attempt to answer it.
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His posts do not sound at ALL definitive. Like..not even a little. What are you even reading? Go read one of his town games and try to tell me, with a straight face, that they are comparable.
Feel free to go read my interactions with that wagon and get back to me.
For real. I would literally volunteer to die right now, day-vigged on the spot if it were possible, if it meant that ZDS would 100% get lynched today(barring a couple of very specific role possibilities getting him out of it). Giving up a townie is always worth netting a scum. And I am dead set positive that ZDS is scum here. If he gets lynched and flips town and we have a vig, I give them permission to shoot me.
But sure I'll take a look at his town game as well.
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2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
* BE2 is only reading surface deep, but is following those reads and is, thus, relevant (Light Town)
* Kami is weakly pushing to avoid having to follow up and is, thus, irrelevant (Scum)
...does that about sum it up?
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
@Hunt, imab will have to wait until tomorrow.
In order from strongest too weakest:
1. imab = scum
2. BE2 = scum
3. Kami =/= ZDS
4. Kami =/= BE2
5. ZDS = Town
The only logical conclusion that I can come to is ZDS has to be scum.
Unvote
Vote: ZDS
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
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Non-Staff Quasi-ModHiding behind the masks, few of the people invited to the masquerade were watching as these events (that would be soon in front pages of all newspapers) were unfolding right before their eyes. The gears of revolution were already turning. Soon, loud noise came from the clock signaling the midnight. They were all waiting for the 12th strike to give them the signal.
Then it would all being.
-----
Cyan (0):
imabusinessman (1): Huntzilla
Burning_Earth2 (0):
ZeDorkSlippeur (6): hansanator, Cyan, KamikazeArchon, 7hawk77, Cantripmancer, Plowshares
Plowshares (0):
Sir Chris (2): Wheat_Grinder, Killjoy
Wheat_Grinder (2): Blindfaeth, Burning_Earth2
7hawk77 (0):
KamikazeArchon (4): ZeDorkSlippeur, Seppel, Sir Chris, imabusinessman
Blindfaeth(0):
hansanator(0):
Seppel(0):
Roowastaken(0):
Killjoy(0):
Cantripmancer(0):
Huntzilla(0):
----
Not voting(1): Roowastaken
Deadline: May 22
With 16 alive, it's 9 to lynch!
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
It's a rare day when someone does this period, so, I don't know why this matters. For all we know, he could think that your assessment of the similarities is bad, and he doesn't want other people to look at the game. Ultimately I think that this is null.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Plus to his credit Kami has just done nothing of worth this entire game. I don't see how someone can look over Kami's posts and go "town." He's the one that's not living up to his meta.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I thought that CM's points on ZDS were superbly relevant. Like I would literally call it a slam dunk.
And I don't think ZDS was trying to manipulate you. I don't think he was ever that committed to your wagon. He just needed a convenient excuse to get away from mine(yes yes, ego..in context I feel that this makes sense).
Outdated Mafia Stats
The good news Cyan is if ZDS is town I think there is no way in hell you're scum. You aren't so brave to be this all in as scum, I feel. I've seen your cowardly scum heart, this feels much different.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
That isn't the case with ZDS, incidentally.
I tend to vote bad players early to get it out of my system. I really am 100% against lynching town at any point, I know some think it can be good but I find that logic usually gross.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
ZDS's game in Avatars does in fact look pretty similar to his play so far here. One difference I noticed in the first few pages of my isolation of him though is he was much neater in that game. Nicer, more willing to give 'tips' to players in order to help them along. At this point I may just be experiencing confirmation bias but I feel as if ZDS this game has been very... brutal at times. Merciless, even. He gave off a very 'kind' vibe in Avatars when responding to people, even in disagreement. To compare the this game and that one he seems much more hands on this game. Like a man holding someone under water and getting splashes of water on his clothes while he waits for them to die beneath his grasp versus someone who orders the hit without carrying it out himself.
I don't know why I get the mental image of ZDS killing someone this game, but there you go.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Unvote
Vote ZDS
Thanks for sharing with the class.Link plzDO NOT THANK USERS POSTSThis is a joke.Literally billions.Where's carefree hans?The only logical conclusion is that your logic processor is broken.That doesn't make you any less scum.
Yay notes.
But...
What does "vouched" for have to do with anything?
And why all of a sudden do you feel I am scum?
2) This is actually one of the most well-drawn up points I've ever seen and has actually made me think more about my own playstyle, so thank you. You are not wrong about some of the larger points; I am more confident in my scum read of imab than I am in my scum read of BE2. However, I will contend some of the finer points of the why. It's not, as you say, a matter of "scum tell" vs "behavioral analysis," but a matter of weighting (for lack of a better way to put it). My method of analysis is to take an observed action (intentional or otherwise) and try to work backwards to determine the mindset most likely to have led to said action. The context within which the action, or series of actions, occurred provides a lens through which to see the mindset. We've both been playing long enough to know there are usually both Town and Scum justifications for anything. The trick is determining which is more likely. I feel it is much more likely that BE2 is making snap decisions because of a predetermined disposition due to knowing player alignments than he is making snap decisions because he is confident enough in his skills as an analyst. You disagree. I am humble enough to know that I am not as good a player as you, nor nearly as experienced. This is why I tried to talk to you about it. It's why I kept talking back and forth with you about Kami and about BE2. I see where you are coming from, and I think you're wrong. It's that simple.
You are, by no means, my scummiest read. Like I said in my previous post, I think imab and BE2 are CONSIDERABLY more likely to be scum. But I can't get a wagon on them to finish before the deadline. Here is my thought process in communicative math terms:
Scum=BE2
BE2=/=Kami (therefore Kami must be Town)
Kami=/=ZDS (therefore ZDS must be Scum)
Yes, I realize that's bad, and I would MUCH rather Lynch imab or BE2 to prove the premise. However, Lynching you is preferable to a No Lynch or a Lynch on Kami.
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
Nullread on plowshares decimated!!! He's scum and I'm sorry I didn't see it earlier.
But that doesn't line up with "why would a dumb person make a snap decision". Like there are all kinds of playstyles. Smart and experienced players can take a methodological choice. Dumb people can make snap decisions. That just doesn't jive at all. And then to attribute it to predisposition instead of playstyle difference? If anything, plowshares himself has been predisposed to making decisions.
Hawk, even if you feel you're not good at convincing people of your arguments, could you at share this with us. At least give us something to think about?