What if his PBPA is good, ie: convincing, free of straws being grabbed, etc? Would that reflect well on him?
While you can sometimes find tells buried within a PBPA post, writing a good, convincing PBPA is not highly alignment indicative. It's an indicator of well you can write PBPAs. Similarly, I'd argue that someone writing a "bad" PBPA, straw-manning people, misrepresenting them, is just as worthless as evidence.
It all comes down to the mentality motivating their posting. And PBPAs are an easy place to fake whatever mentality you care to present. When I'm scum writing a PBPA, I'm yawning inside while I cruise towards townie credit. They're the easiest type of post for scum to write.
6. Axelrod, what is your current read on me? I remember you having some issues with me in the early game but it feels like you've completely dropped it now.
I don't have much of a read on you at all. My earlier issue (which still remains, but isn't a high level thing) was primarily that you appeared to be doing something quite different in this game from the last one we played, and not just acting differently, but acting in a way that seemed to convey a completely different mindset - when you not only didn't jump on (whoever it was, Sepiral?) for voting for himself during RVS, but you also criticized others for doing so. Which was odd given your comments about yourself and your style from the other game. You've said you made a concerted effort NOT to play like the other game due to poor results, and I of course have no way of verifying that or not, so it's out there, but not a high priority. You are at least posting a lot, which is good.
@Killjoy: I would ask you NOT to do 100 post "recaps" where you narrate the thread for the next several posts. One catch up where you give your (current) reads on people with reasons why would be hugely more beneficial in my opinion and also take a lot less time and space.
Private Mod Note
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
@Az: it costs me tons of time and money on bad roaming to look up those posts
I'm sure you can find it quickly if you ISO me. I grilled Proph pretty hard over his language.
I thought scarbo was scum earlier but I don't see scum motivation for how he is currently playing.
If they were both scum, does anyone believe scarbo would risk trying to save a buddy this early?
What if scarbo was scum and AI was town, id expect him to just focus on someone else he thought was scum and not defend AI. The other two remaining scenarios is scarbo being town regardless of AIs alignment.
Anyways, currently I don't like atog, zindabad or dking.
I'm leaning towards atog because his wagon stalled out for no good reason.
I currently think dking could be scum based off of a meta tell but it's not strong enough to convince others, just personal opinion.
Zindabad painted a bunch of people as scum which just seemed like a good way to keep his lynch options open. Also the point he used against me was terrible and wrong which means his reads are probably fabricatsd.
I'm re-quoting this because I don't think I have ever received an acknowledgement from you that the player you accused was in fact AE, and not yours truly, as I pointed out in post 550.
I still stand by the AI case, notwithstanding a number of the folks supporting the wagon not adding much original analysis. I think that's par for the town at this point, and ZDS and I have already done the PBPA route to death.
I can't ever recall playing with AI in a mood like this. It's hard for me to grok where it's coming from, from a townie perspective, and his reads and positions and defenses don't convince me that he's trying to give honest assessments. Like, the bad mood is clearly genuine (though I suspect he's playing it up a bit at this point), but I don't see how it developed other than his coming under pressure, and he's denied that my case against him was the cause of his bad mood.
Next on my schedule is a full thread reread with notes.
I look forward to this with great anticipation. (Spoiler: I doubt I am ever going to see it.)
Archmage:
I have to agree with Zindabad about you focusing way too much about him. You have been tunneling him since the start of the game, and the more you pay attention only to him the more you sound obsessed and nothing more. If he's scum, you are doing him a great service by digging your tunnel straight towards complete irrelevancy to the game. If he's town, you are obviously not helping either.
This sounded like plainsight coaching. You give no credence to my attacks on AE, and neither do you commit the other way, and actually go along with his on me. The fact that in his next post he mildly goes "ok, I'll stop" (and then ceases to post at all once he is deprived of the topic of YT) makes it sound even more like scum-on-scum interaction.
1) I'm voting AI. I've made a wall of text explaining why I think AI is scum (which I posted before Az's PBPA). In what bizarro dimension am I fence-sitting on Az's PBPA?
You seem to have this weird obsession that a PBPA must be completely flawless, devoid of any slant, to be valid. "Flawless, not slanted PBPA" is an oxymoron.
2) Do you mean the pressure he was under for like ten seconds at the end of RVS, or the pressure after that from a couple of isolated votes with no traction behind them? Hansanator never was under anything even close to serious pressure (and he never looked like he cared about the little pressure he's been under, either).
1. I didn't say you were fence-sitting on AI. That's actually about the only thing of any conviction you've posted all game. Everything else has been milder as milk. I'm saying you're fence-sitting on saying whether Az's pbpa was slanted or not. You seem to acknowledge that he posts pbpas that are flawed, but make no comment on whether this particular one was, and/or any implications for his alignment.
2. Yes, considering that was the only time he was active all game, that is the time I meant. Of course he didn't care. He didn't post for days after he was questioned. I'm still very interested in him and I don't love how you tried to downplay him.
AI's indignation and claim of going on hiatus sounds hollow and forced, I recall he pulled the same line on me once before and he was back into playing not soon afterwards so yeah he is clearly playing this up, i am not swayed.
Also I was sure i had already unvoted before going V/LA and voted AI on #370, so seeing me still voting hans was odd but then on quick review it seems i accidentally did not unvoted so.
Sure thing, pot. I bring up the three people that are being discussed. I still prefer Atogaholic to AI. I also prefer hawk to AI. I've been hesitant to post my full thoughts on hawk because I didn't want to derail the other wagons.
I'm still waiting to hear any explanation beyond the vaguest of reasons as to why you even have those preferences. Are those the only people you have any interest in? Is it a coincidence that they are the only ones (not really hawk) that have been discussed as major wagons since like page 4?
What are your thoughts on AE, Rhand, hansanator, Taredas, and ZDS?
I've given my thoughts on Rhand and my read on ZDS. Here's a breakdown on the players you noted:
Rhand: Town. See 248 and 349.
ZDS: Leaning scum. Noted in 248. For more specifics, I don't like 51, 126, and 237. He's read better to me recently, though.
AE: Leaning town. His attacks on you haven't felt like scum attacks, and I don't like how you've approached his fixation on you.
hansanator: I'm not sure.
Taredas: Town. I haven't read anything in his posts that felt off, and the effort he's putting in feels genuine.
All of those reads except the Rhand one sound totally made up. I think you are scum. At the very least, you aren't reading, and the entire theme of your posts today has been a peripheral nibbling-round-the-edges, waiting for something to happen instead of making anything happen yourself.FoS: Cythare.
Wrong idea is one thing, but to completely falsify the situation is another. You just come across as not wanting any attention coming your way.
Who falsified anything? First of all, I didn't even commit to anything in what I said - I said I "thought" I detected a "hint of panic" from AI after the Gruul mechanic was revealed, and I was basing that off of how he immediately labeled it an anti-town mechanic. So what exactly could I have "falsified" in that statement? That is a classic misrep. You are trying to make a post where I was obviously baiting AI into some incredible scum slip because it's literally all you have. You haven't even engaged anything else I've said. You refused to respond to any of my posts about you. The truth is that you do not want to engage me, because I have taken you apart so many times that I can't even remember them all and you know it, but you need something to post about, and "everyone knows" (from meta that is 5 years old and you literally do not even remember) that you caught me that one time and have been "dining out" on it, so to speak, for probably 10 games or more now.
Can't wait to see what content you will come up with now that you're supposedly finding other things to post about.
zindabad was clearly fishing for a reaction. Sepiriel made a slanderous accusation. These are entirely different things. Why are you tunneling so hard, AE?
Why does the lion roar? Why does fire burn? Why did my cat pee in the bathtub, which she has never done before, and then three seconds later headboop the insurance policy I was reading into her pile of urine in order to protest my lack of scratching her?
Because it is in their nature. And because my cat is fiendishly smart and evil.
Still waiting for you to produce anything of relevance. The AI wagon isn't happening. Your next move is...?
Archmage:
Thank you for backing up your meta-accusations. Do you think Zindabad's play in this game could have anything to do with him having trouble keeping up?
He...didn't back them up. He mentioned the name of a game. Do you know what happened in that game? FoS: ZeDorkSlipeur
I'm not liking the AI lynch. Az's case isn't very strong, and I haven't seen anyone else show evidence of a scum mindset. All there is is some inconclusive meta. I think I'm seeing a townie under pressure in him.
Atog, Hawk, Dkings, Snurfy and Zindabad are the lynches I support at this point. Maybe ZDS or Vishamon.
I'm moving my vote to Atog again. His push on AI on top of this page is bad and reads like an attempt to justify a vote that will come when the Gruul are ready to join the wagon. His posting gap until the pressure was off him reeks and the language he uses in his responses to AI rubs me wrong.
unvote, vote Atog
The Atog wagon is also going nowhere. It might be time for some fresh ideas.
He's paranoid about Azrael and indirectly defends AI (in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of way). Archmage made the plausible but not entirely convincing claim that he's also playing like he usually does as scum.
I don't know if this makes Zind scum, but I do know this makes him worth interrogating.
Then interrogate me. First it's Azrael with "I'd support looking into zin tomorrow" and now you with "it makes him worth interrogating." You both know you have nothing. Why even say this then? To encourage people to swing at me? Not to mention you just told AE that he should lay off me. So which is it? If I'm "worth interrogating", then why should AE leave off? He should keep going until he shakes something loose...except you know that isn't going to happen, and he's just making himself look bad, so you're calling him off while nebulously stating that I deserve pressure. Right then. Pressure me. Let's have it. Same challenge I gave to Azrael.
180 degree disagreement on those two primary reads, AI and Atog. AI's only defense has been to suggest, with only inconclusive evidence supporting him, that being sulky is his current meta. That's not the AI I'm familiar with. My case against him isn't the most detailed I've ever come up with, but that's solely because we're on a day one basis.
Read: Nobody bought it, but his miserable behavior is enough to invite attacks from gullible townies, so there might still be some legs in the wagon.
As for Atog, I think he's done a number of things, circumstantially, to hurt his credibility, but nowhere in his posting do I see anything that smacks of a scum mindset, including the post you just mentioned. That reads to me like healthy town paranoia. Not the best argument, but clearly motivated by having the right mentality and the right attitude for a townie.
Read: He's a good punching bag to be kept around for later when we need another mislynch.
He did, but not kill-joy. You didn't even know snurfy had been replaced? Are you reading this game? FoS: Azrael.
Still waiting for Cythare to do...anything, actually. And I know he's been V/LA, but in 25 posts I think I've seen absolutely nothing to recommend him.
Prod Watch
77Hawk7: 3 days
Archmage Eternal: 3 days
AsianInvasion: 2 days
Atogaholic: 2 days
Cythare: 3 days hansanator: 5 days
Sepiriel: 3 days
I should clarify that people will be prodded first and not just replaced, cruelly, for being inactive for a while. However, if I prod you and you fail to participate in the game in a meaningful way, you will be a candidate to be replaced. Also, I want to clarify for his sake that snurfy requested replacement after I prodded him.
Anyway, Huntzilla replaces hansanator, effective immediately. Please welcome him to the game.
And now I'm off! VC and a follow-up to the prod watch tomorrow (whereby those on the list will be prodded; there's some lenience given for weekends) afternoon.
Hello Everyone,
Will be slow going on the catch up, but I will get there by the end of the week. I was following by reading, but not in depth.
I also will remind everyone that I am Gruul and will not be voting right away. From where I was sitting just following along I remember being on board with the AI wagon. But, I will read more closely and get back to you all.
And before you ask, AI, like you did in #606 to KJ, no, I am not scum.
Hey Proph. Elaborate on your Atog town read. You say you think we're being strung along by scum yet you dismiss everyone on the Atog wagon as null.
It's a combination of my VI-town gut reading skills, which are generally pretty good, and logic. I just wouldn't expect scum to make the "I'm low-hanging fruit" defense. I feel like if he was scum he would try to acquise, like in his previous scum game:
ok some people are voting for me because my hammer seemed scummy. let me try to explain
So when I checked the mafia game on my phone that night, I saw that DS was at L-1 and no one else was viewing the thread. I also saw: [QUOTES]
So at this point I was pretty much convinced that it was hammer time. I think that I said something earlier about not wanting to hammer DS until he answered Curious's question. However Curious's earlier post left me pretty unoptimistic about that he would even answer, and I realized that whatever answer if gave if he did give one would just be more wifom. I decided that I wanted to hammer so that we could get to D2 faster.
The reason that I didn't have anything else with my vote was that I was posting from a phone.
If anyone has any more questions, ask away and I'll try to clear it up.
Him sticking to his guns surprised me, and him going like this:
Quote from Togs »
You have to be scum first to slip
...made me doubt myself a bit.
Quote from ZDS »
I have him in a corner of my mind. Right now I don't want to create a distraction while I still support the AI wagon.
I noticed his playstyle has changed completely after he reappeared (for whatever reason), and now he is spectating along and doing nothing of use (which I'm not fond of).
(By the way, what's "UTR"?)
Yeah, that's fair. UTR, as Vishamon pointed out, is "under the radar".
@zindabad: Do you have any townreads? You've FoSed Cythare, Azrael, scarbo, and ZDS, all of whom are probably not going to be lynched Today, realistically speaking. Deadline is in like four days.
I love this "bend space and time" replacement policy.
At the moment I'll request a deadline extension and try to get a killjoy wagon going. I'm not a huge fan of the two wagons at the moment and I feel like the scum are trying to take advantage of the apathy/coming deadline to push through a mislynch.
Yes. You, Rhand, dkings, Axelrod, AI (more by dint of his attackers), and Sepiriel. The latter two I'm considering useless at this point.
I also agree that there is barely anything to go on in the smurfy/killjoy direction at the moment. A better alternative to Atog/AI would be obvscum AE, who I already cased to absolutely no reaction from him or anyone else. If that doesn't happen I'd like to see Cythare lynched.
Yes. You, Rhand, dkings, Axelrod, AI (more by dint of his attackers), and Sepiriel. The latter two I'm considering useless at this point.
I also agree that there is barely anything to go on in the smurfy/killjoy direction at the moment. A better alternative to Atog/AI would be obvscum AE, who I already cased to absolutely no reaction from him or anyone else. If that doesn't happen I'd like to see Cythare lynched.
OK sorry for triple posting. Guess I just have to remove all formatting.
Why Atogaholic is scum
Note: opens game voting hans during RVS and later states he likes it there.
Unvotes hans and gives Proph the good ol' FoS. No one had voted Proph but Obzedat, so unless he knows something about Obzedat that we don't (and how could he with a Gruul claim?) there is no reason not to vote.
Vish wagon looks 'promising.' I hate his use of that word.
Immediately afterwards claims a scum team of Taredas/Rhand/Proph. What happened to Vish and hans? How can he make a statement about the number of scum in the game?
In the next post AI has taken Rhand's place as eligible scum. He's clearly easing himself onto the wagon against AI.
When I call him out on this he says it was all a reaction test.
I still think the 'you should have done so-and-so' borders on a slip.
Later he says there are several people he reads as town that he hasn't mentioned. This makes no sense as he's already listed who he thinks the scum team is, implying his town read on everyone else.
Pseudo-moves onto his counterwagon, disappears.
Mentions zindabad for the first time in his latest post, non-committal confession that he hasn't looked at him but there 'may be something there.' I don't recall ANY interaction between them up to that point.
Why zindabad is scum
His opening post translates into "I think scum would react in a panicked fashion to Az's outing of the Gruul mechanic. I think AI may have done this."
Why this makes him scum: The immediate upshot is that zindabad has inside information about Az's alignment. Why else would he think scum would react negatively to this announcement? Furthermore he tries to implicate AI in this, and if he really thought it would be a 'profitable exercise' i.e. benefical to town he would have done it himself. Another upshot is that he knows AI is town.
In his next post he attempts to implicate Rhand and casts some mild suspicion on Sep. Again he uses the phrase "I think I saw..." This implies he has no interest in confirming his suspicions but would prefer to breed suspicion in others, have others do the work for him.
The next post is interesting. Instead of directing it to a general audience like the first two, he speaks to ZDS and hans directly. There's no real grilling or questioning. It reads more as a critique, which makes sense if he's talking to scum buddies.
In the wall o' text he calls content, he accuses hans of slipping. This is about as strong a scum read one can give on another player, yet there's nothing. He's succeeded in implicating hans, tying into my previous point. Basically this entire post is a jumble of poor jabs and requests for other people to participate more.
Next post: "Why isn't anyone scum reading AE?" vs in the previous post "I can't even decide if AE is scum."
Then another wall of text in which he puts an FoS on Cythare and me and accuses Az of sounding forced. I've lost count of how many people he's cast non-committal suspicion on at this point. His refusal to claim or deny Gruul just reeks of an excuse not to back anything he says up with a vote while not locking himself into a claim. He ends it with a brilliant PBPA of AE, the conclusion to which he seemed to have forgotten to include.
The next posts look nervous.
When explicitly asked if he town reads AI he gives a wishy-washy "I don't think he's been particularly town." Then he calls AE obvscum. What the literal *****.
Later we see an FoS on ZDS and Az. That's got to be over half the players he's pretended to be suspicious of.
Archmage:
I have to agree with Zindabad about you focusing way too much about him. You have been tunneling him since the start of the game, and the more you pay attention only to him the more you sound obsessed and nothing more. If he's scum, you are doing him a great service by digging your tunnel straight towards complete irrelevancy to the game. If he's town, you are obviously not helping either.
This sounded like plainsight coaching. You give no credence to my attacks on AE, and neither do you commit the other way, and actually go along with his on me. The fact that in his next post he mildly goes "ok, I'll stop" (and then ceases to post at all once he is deprived of the topic of YT) makes it sound even more like scum-on-scum interaction.
No I figured I'd lay off you a bit because you kept fussing about it. That's what I do, I tunnel. When you find a scum why not stick to him? Others have expressed their thoughts about you so if they want to vote they will.
Wrong idea is one thing, but to completely falsify the situation is another. You just come across as not wanting any attention coming your way.
Who falsified anything? First of all, I didn't even commit to anything in what I said - I said I "thought" I detected a "hint of panic" from AI after the Gruul mechanic was revealed, and I was basing that off of how he immediately labeled it an anti-town mechanic. So what exactly could I have "falsified" in that statement? That is a classic misrep. You are trying to make a post where I was obviously baiting AI into some incredible scum slip because it's literally all you have. You haven't even engaged anything else I've said. You refused to respond to any of my posts about you. The truth is that you do not want to engage me, because I have taken you apart so many times that I can't even remember them all and you know it, but you need something to post about, and "everyone knows" (from meta that is 5 years old and you literally do not even remember) that you caught me that one time and have been "dining out" on it, so to speak, for probably 10 games or more now.
Can't wait to see what content you will come up with now that you're supposedly finding other things to post about.
Not a misrep, you were implying AI panicked. You wanted townies to jump on that. So you were misrepn' him. Saying something, or implying something that was not true, falsifying.
Well lets look, this is what AI says after Az claims the Gruul mech.
"Oh that is interesting. I am not Gruul but support a guild claim."
Then replies to Proph saying is anti-town. Then later claims his guild. He never was against it. Your reaching for things.
I love how you say you have taken me apart so many times. I'll just leave that one alone. If that helps you sleep at night, have at it.
Scarbo, that wasn't even worth responding to. You can't even keep AI and AE straight. Come back when you have something worth my time.
@AE: That bit about tunnelling was obviously a contrived attempt to make yourself look town because a few other players have stated your meta is to tunnel. If you were really tunneling you'd never leave off whether I "fussed" or not. Pathetic attempt to backtrack.
Here's what AE said that I commented on: "It's a decidedly anti-town clan ability." You would know that if you were making even a token attempt to research what you post.
Scarbo, that wasn't even worth responding to. You can't even keep AI and AE straight. Come back when you have something worth my time.
@AE: That bit about tunnelling was obviously a contrived attempt to make yourself look town because a few other players have stated your meta is to tunnel. If you were really tunneling you'd never leave off whether I "fussed" or not. Pathetic attempt to backtrack.
Here's what AE said that I commented on: "It's a decidedly anti-town clan ability." You would know that if you were making even a token attempt to research what you post.
Funny, I'm not backtracking anything. Just waiting for the town to get their act together and start voting you. If not I'll wait till day 2 to lynch you. I'm fine.
Now to what you quoted you commented on. What of it? I did post he said it was anti town. What's your point?
Yes. You, Rhand, dkings, Axelrod, AI (more by dint of his attackers), and Sepiriel. The latter two I'm considering useless at this point.
Ill be sure to take it as a defense and not an insult.
I support the following Lynches toDay:
AI because mutual hatred is mutual
Hawk because his play and wording was just so off and its been bothering me non-stop.
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Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
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That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
@Killjoy: I would ask you NOT to do 100 post "recaps" where you narrate the thread for the next several posts. One catch up where you give your (current) reads on people with reasons why would be hugely more beneficial in my opinion and also take a lot less time and space.
Do you just find distracting, or is there another reason behind this? I actually like seeing the way people are reading as they read through during catch up after replacing in, rather than just the end product when they've finished.
Next post: "Why isn't anyone scum reading AE?" vs in the previous post "I can't even decide if AE is scum."
here. If that's the case, it makes it look even worse that you yourself can't keep the two of them straight, especially given the amount of your attention they have appeared to attract between the two of them.
Please explain to me what you meant by "reads like an attempt to justify a vote that will come when the Gruul are ready to join the wagon"
Quote from scarbo »
@Atog: And yet you continue not to vote AI.
I am voting for him. 100% of the reason I'm not using my real vote is mechanics related. In terms of the pressure and commitment, nothing is different.
Quote from proph »
Can you explain this in more detail (ie: go through hawk's posts and show us where you find a town mindset in his posts)?
His posts are all just short opinion blurbs, he seems to constantly change his reads. I get a sense of town paranoia.
Quote from proph »
What does everyone think about this snurfy post:
The fact that two of the people he pressures are on the wagon of the third does seem suspicious. But it could also be explained by a townie who's in over his head and isn't paying much attention. I think kj's posts will provide more clues to his alignment than snurfy's will. I didn't get anything from his last post though.
Quote from scarbo »
Note: opens game voting hans during RVS and later states he likes it there.
Unvotes hans and gives Proph the good ol' FoS. No one had voted Proph but Obzedat, so unless he knows something about Obzedat that we don't (and how could he with a Gruul claim?) there is no reason not to vote. I'm surprised this even needs to be explained 3 weeks in. It's because I'm gruul.
Vish wagon looks 'promising.' I hate his use of that word. I used that phrasing intentionally to breadcrumb.
Immediately afterwards claims a scum team of Taredas/Rhand/Proph. What happened to Vish and hans? How can he make a statement about the number of scum in the game? Never read vish and hans as anything but town/null. There's nothing saying anything about #of scum, you're reaching.
In the next post AI has taken Rhand's place as eligible scum. He's clearly easing himself onto the wagon against AI. Reads can change when people post scummy. In this case, AI posted scummy.
When I call him out on this he says it was all a reaction test. It wasn't even you
I still think the 'you should have done so-and-so' borders on a slip. ...
Later he says there are several people he reads as town that he hasn't mentioned. This makes no sense as he's already listed who he thinks the scum team is, implying his town read on everyone else. No. You're reaching really far here.
Pseudo-moves onto his counterwagon, disappears. I had reason to rethink my two other reads + I was on AI for a while.
Mentions zindabad for the first time in his latest post, non-committal confession that he hasn't looked at him but there 'may be something there.' I don't recall ANY interaction between them up to that point. No duh why do you think I wanted to look at him
It seems to me your entire scumhunting method is just "jump on anyone who uses a pseudovote." It might be viable elsewhere but this is like the worst possible game to do that.
Kinda unmotivated to finish the hawk PBPA right now, but the long and short of it is that hawk is probably bad town with an outside shot of being scum.
I've seen zindabad suddenly perk up near a deadline before as scum. I believe it was Symbiote or Goo Mafia.
However, KoolKoal's reaction is causing me to second-guess that meta read. Sadly, I don't think lynching him is viable toDay.
I would still like Atog lynched. He hasn't done anything to convince me that he's town, and I don't think we can afford to have him as an unknown as the game continues.
Zindabad is scum.
@Proph: look at Zindabad's big post at the part where he adressed Azrael for the first time. That is the kind of linking that I am talking about when I dislike links.
ZDS, your reductionist dismissal of my case is duly noted, as is the anecdotal comment about you and hans I mainly meant about hans that you latched onto.
My guess is that I'm actually onto something here and it's in your best interest to fight me on it. I very clearly list my reasons for my scum reads and instead of explaining to me why I'm wrong you pick two minor aspects of it and mock them. Did you even read the whole thing?
Atog, your responses are just backpedaling. You say things and then say you didn't mean them later. And it absolutely most certainly was me who called you out on it, or did you forget this exchange:
Atog-
1. Do you believe three scum (Taredas, Rhand, and Proph) would spearhead your lynch?
2. If you and Vish are 'lynch bait' (253), why do you think you're more under attack than Vish?
3. If you've never had a scum read on Vish this game (253), what made you think his wagon looked 'promising' (157)?
Ugh, missed this because of preview
1. Eh I don't think Rhand fits anymore but Proph and Taredas are definitely scum
2. Dunno, maybe because my wagon started first?
3. heh, I deliberately left the wording ambiguous to try and use him as bait. I said his wagon 'looked promising,' meaning I saw the potential to catch scum hopping onto it. (Which I did) Notice I also said he was misinterpreting a quote, which is a mistake town can make as well as scum
Alright, I just finished reading over vish because every post of his made no impact on me. I'm feeling fine about vish and someone commented that if vish is scum, it will be apparent. It isn't apparent.
As far as AI goes, I think he did a very fair pbpa which means he is probably town. Yes I waited to post that Cythare because I didn't want him to see my view of him and have thay bias anything.
Anyways, atog saying that I'm town is something that I didn't expect. I assumed atog was scum and wad going to paint me.
Atog, your responses are just backpedaling. You say things and then say you didn't mean them later. And it absolutely most certainly was me who called you out on it, or did you forget this exchange:
I'm not backpedaling, you're just drawing really weird conclusions. Don't try to handwave my response. Your quoted post was questioning me after the fact, AI and ZDS were the first to bring it up. Why are you contesting me on the most irrelevant point that I made?
Quote from AI »
I've seen zindabad suddenly perk up near a deadline before as scum. I believe it was Symbiote or Goo Mafia.
However, KoolKoal's reaction is causing me to second-guess that meta read. Sadly, I don't think lynching him is viable toDay.
Oh I would lynch a killjoy too.
Something something scum sensing blood in the water
That is a strange question to ask someone who has been rooting for the lynch of a particular player for most of the Day.
Azrael uses some pretty strong language there (I think you caught scum). Considering an AI lynch isn't likely to happen now, I'm just curious why he felt it wasn't vote worthy.
The first takes self-consciousness to the max, and the second is the Stormbind-from-Hats tell. I can get behind lynching one of these two if everyone else is against lynching Hawk. Huntzilla replaced hansanator, right? I might reread him today.
IMO we're suffering from a LOT of tunneling right now. At least half the players in the game (myself included) have been tunneling hard for most of the day. Anyone who is pushing a lynch that isn't viable needs to stop and re-assess.
I'm surprised this even needs to be explained 3 weeks in. It's because I'm gruul.
I understood the Gruul mechanic to be one where Gruul votes in succession counted more. No one else was on Proph.
I used that phrasing intentionally to breadcrumb.
We're just supposed to believe this.
Never read vish and hans as anything but town/null. There's nothing saying anything about #of scum, you're reaching.
Right, because the Vish comment earlier was a bait test. But you said you liked your vote on hans, and when you proclaim that scum team = {p1, p2, ..., pn} the immediate implication is that there are n players on the scum team. It's not reaching. It's modus ponens.
Reads can change when people post scummy. In this case, AI posted scummy.
Sure but you didn't question AI. You didn't even point out anything you found scummy.
Later he says there are several people he reads as town that he hasn't mentioned. This makes no sense as he's already listed who he thinks the scum team is, implying his town read on everyone else. No. You're reaching really far here.
2. Hans never claimed Gruul (which Huntzilla did) despite Azrael making a pretty good case that all Gruul players should claim. I actually dislike this quite a bit, as keeping that hidden makes a lot of sense from a scum mindset.
ZDS, your reductionist dismissal of my case is duly noted, as is the anecdotal comment about you and hans I mainly meant about hans that you latched onto.
My guess is that I'm actually onto something here and it's in your best interest to fight me on it. I very clearly list my reasons for my scum reads and instead of explaining to me why I'm wrong you pick two minor aspects of it and mock them. Did you even read the whole thing?
1) You could have tied Zindabad to any other players and I still would have called you out on it, because the logic you used to do so was particularly non-sensical.
What was your read on me before all this?
2) I have read the whole thing, and I don't plan on saying much about it until Zindabad defends himself properly.
Since the "aspects" of your PBPA that I "mocked" were only "minor", can you point out which arguments are the major ones?
I wasn't tying them together at all. I mentioned that they had virtually no interactions, but that's it. You haven't pointed out the "particularly non-sensical" logic. If you think I'm mistaken, why aren't you trying to show me why I'm wrong?
I've repeatedly stated that Atog, zinda, and hans are my scum reads. Deduce from that what you will.
Zindabad has made it abundantly clear that he has no desire to defend himself. And if you and zindabad are in agreement that my case is garbage, what is there for zinda to defend himself against? You can't have it both ways.
By minor I meant that you picked the first two points I made and ignored everything else, hence my belief that you never read the rest.
Sure thing, pot. I bring up the three people that are being discussed. I still prefer Atogaholic to AI. I also prefer hawk to AI. I've been hesitant to post my full thoughts on hawk because I didn't want to derail the other wagons.
I'm still waiting to hear any explanation beyond the vaguest of reasons as to why you even have those preferences. Are those the only people you have any interest in? Is it a coincidence that they are the only ones (not really hawk) that have been discussed as major wagons since like page 4?
What are your thoughts on AE, Rhand, hansanator, Taredas, and ZDS?
I've given my thoughts on Rhand and my read on ZDS. Here's a breakdown on the players you noted:
Rhand: Town. See 248 and 349.
ZDS: Leaning scum. Noted in 248. For more specifics, I don't like 51, 126, and 237. He's read better to me recently, though.
AE: Leaning town. His attacks on you haven't felt like scum attacks, and I don't like how you've approached his fixation on you.
hansanator: I'm not sure.
Taredas: Town. I haven't read anything in his posts that felt off, and the effort he's putting in feels genuine.
All of those reads except the Rhand one sound totally made up. I think you are scum. At the very least, you aren't reading, and the entire theme of your posts today has been a peripheral nibbling-round-the-edges, waiting for something to happen instead of making anything happen yourself.FoS: Cythare.
Ok. I don't know what else to tell you. Yes, I've been somewhat peripheral.
Still waiting for Cythare to do...anything, actually. And I know he's been V/LA, but in 25 posts I think I've seen absolutely nothing to recommend him.
I love this "bend space and time" replacement policy.
At the moment I'll request a deadline extension and try to get a killjoy wagon going. I'm not a huge fan of the two wagons at the moment and I feel like the scum are trying to take advantage of the apathy/coming deadline to push through a mislynch.
Vote killjoy
Request Deadline Extension A
Is killjoy based on snurfy, or do you also take issue with killjoy's posts after replacing in?
While you can sometimes find tells buried within a PBPA post, writing a good, convincing PBPA is not highly alignment indicative. It's an indicator of well you can write PBPAs. Similarly, I'd argue that someone writing a "bad" PBPA, straw-manning people, misrepresenting them, is just as worthless as evidence.
It all comes down to the mentality motivating their posting. And PBPAs are an easy place to fake whatever mentality you care to present. When I'm scum writing a PBPA, I'm yawning inside while I cruise towards townie credit. They're the easiest type of post for scum to write.
Oh, he's Killjoy's replaced-out slot. Meh. Well, that might explain that carelessness of his reads.
Why no vote then?
I don't have much of a read on you at all. My earlier issue (which still remains, but isn't a high level thing) was primarily that you appeared to be doing something quite different in this game from the last one we played, and not just acting differently, but acting in a way that seemed to convey a completely different mindset - when you not only didn't jump on (whoever it was, Sepiral?) for voting for himself during RVS, but you also criticized others for doing so. Which was odd given your comments about yourself and your style from the other game. You've said you made a concerted effort NOT to play like the other game due to poor results, and I of course have no way of verifying that or not, so it's out there, but not a high priority. You are at least posting a lot, which is good.
@Killjoy: I would ask you NOT to do 100 post "recaps" where you narrate the thread for the next several posts. One catch up where you give your (current) reads on people with reasons why would be hugely more beneficial in my opinion and also take a lot less time and space.
I'm sure you can find it quickly if you ISO me. I grilled Proph pretty hard over his language.
Prod check happening soonish? I'm baking tonight and maybe drinking so I won't have time for it.
Do recall my warning from before: You'll be replaced immediately if you aren't participating. Last shot.
I'm re-quoting this because I don't think I have ever received an acknowledgement from you that the player you accused was in fact AE, and not yours truly, as I pointed out in post 550.
I look forward to this with great anticipation. (Spoiler: I doubt I am ever going to see it.)
This sounded like plainsight coaching. You give no credence to my attacks on AE, and neither do you commit the other way, and actually go along with his on me. The fact that in his next post he mildly goes "ok, I'll stop" (and then ceases to post at all once he is deprived of the topic of YT) makes it sound even more like scum-on-scum interaction.
1. I didn't say you were fence-sitting on AI. That's actually about the only thing of any conviction you've posted all game. Everything else has been milder as milk. I'm saying you're fence-sitting on saying whether Az's pbpa was slanted or not. You seem to acknowledge that he posts pbpas that are flawed, but make no comment on whether this particular one was, and/or any implications for his alignment.
2. Yes, considering that was the only time he was active all game, that is the time I meant. Of course he didn't care. He didn't post for days after he was questioned. I'm still very interested in him and I don't love how you tried to downplay him.
You are to AI as AE is to me. Stop it.
All of those reads except the Rhand one sound totally made up. I think you are scum. At the very least, you aren't reading, and the entire theme of your posts today has been a peripheral nibbling-round-the-edges, waiting for something to happen instead of making anything happen yourself.FoS: Cythare.
Who falsified anything? First of all, I didn't even commit to anything in what I said - I said I "thought" I detected a "hint of panic" from AI after the Gruul mechanic was revealed, and I was basing that off of how he immediately labeled it an anti-town mechanic. So what exactly could I have "falsified" in that statement? That is a classic misrep. You are trying to make a post where I was obviously baiting AI into some incredible scum slip because it's literally all you have. You haven't even engaged anything else I've said. You refused to respond to any of my posts about you. The truth is that you do not want to engage me, because I have taken you apart so many times that I can't even remember them all and you know it, but you need something to post about, and "everyone knows" (from meta that is 5 years old and you literally do not even remember) that you caught me that one time and have been "dining out" on it, so to speak, for probably 10 games or more now.
Can't wait to see what content you will come up with now that you're supposedly finding other things to post about.
Still waiting for you to produce anything of relevance. The AI wagon isn't happening. Your next move is...?
He...didn't back them up. He mentioned the name of a game. Do you know what happened in that game?
FoS: ZeDorkSlipeur
The Atog wagon is also going nowhere. It might be time for some fresh ideas.
No, no, I think I'd like to hear it from you. Do tell.
Then interrogate me. First it's Azrael with "I'd support looking into zin tomorrow" and now you with "it makes him worth interrogating." You both know you have nothing. Why even say this then? To encourage people to swing at me? Not to mention you just told AE that he should lay off me. So which is it? If I'm "worth interrogating", then why should AE leave off? He should keep going until he shakes something loose...except you know that isn't going to happen, and he's just making himself look bad, so you're calling him off while nebulously stating that I deserve pressure. Right then. Pressure me. Let's have it. Same challenge I gave to Azrael.
Read: Nobody bought it, but his miserable behavior is enough to invite attacks from gullible townies, so there might still be some legs in the wagon.
Read: He's a good punching bag to be kept around for later when we need another mislynch.
He did, but not kill-joy. You didn't even know snurfy had been replaced? Are you reading this game?
FoS: Azrael.
Still waiting for Cythare to do...anything, actually. And I know he's been V/LA, but in 25 posts I think I've seen absolutely nothing to recommend him.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
77Hawk7: 3 days
Archmage Eternal: 3 days
AsianInvasion: 2 days
Atogaholic: 2 days
Cythare: 3 days
hansanator: 5 daysSepiriel: 3 days
I should clarify that people will be prodded first and not just replaced, cruelly, for being inactive for a while. However, if I prod you and you fail to participate in the game in a meaningful way, you will be a candidate to be replaced. Also, I want to clarify for his sake that snurfy requested replacement after I prodded him.
Anyway, Huntzilla replaces hansanator, effective immediately. Please welcome him to the game.
And now I'm off! VC and a follow-up to the prod watch tomorrow (whereby those on the list will be prodded; there's some lenience given for weekends) afternoon.
Will be slow going on the catch up, but I will get there by the end of the week. I was following by reading, but not in depth.
I also will remind everyone that I am Gruul and will not be voting right away. From where I was sitting just following along I remember being on board with the AI wagon. But, I will read more closely and get back to you all.
And before you ask, AI, like you did in #606 to KJ, no, I am not scum.
It's a combination of my VI-town gut reading skills, which are generally pretty good, and logic. I just wouldn't expect scum to make the "I'm low-hanging fruit" defense. I feel like if he was scum he would try to acquise, like in his previous scum game:
Him sticking to his guns surprised me, and him going like this:
...made me doubt myself a bit.
Yeah, that's fair. UTR, as Vishamon pointed out, is "under the radar".
@zindabad: Do you have any townreads? You've FoSed Cythare, Azrael, scarbo, and ZDS, all of whom are probably not going to be lynched Today, realistically speaking. Deadline is in like four days.
I love this "bend space and time" replacement policy.
At the moment I'll request a deadline extension and try to get a killjoy wagon going. I'm not a huge fan of the two wagons at the moment and I feel like the scum are trying to take advantage of the apathy/coming deadline to push through a mislynch.
Vote killjoy
Request Deadline Extension A
I also agree that there is barely anything to go on in the smurfy/killjoy direction at the moment. A better alternative to Atog/AI would be obvscum AE, who I already cased to absolutely no reaction from him or anyone else. If that doesn't happen I'd like to see Cythare lynched.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Hint: It's because your case was complete trash.
Why Atogaholic is scum
Note: opens game voting hans during RVS and later states he likes it there.
Unvotes hans and gives Proph the good ol' FoS. No one had voted Proph but Obzedat, so unless he knows something about Obzedat that we don't (and how could he with a Gruul claim?) there is no reason not to vote.
Vish wagon looks 'promising.' I hate his use of that word.
Immediately afterwards claims a scum team of Taredas/Rhand/Proph. What happened to Vish and hans? How can he make a statement about the number of scum in the game?
In the next post AI has taken Rhand's place as eligible scum. He's clearly easing himself onto the wagon against AI.
When I call him out on this he says it was all a reaction test.
I still think the 'you should have done so-and-so' borders on a slip.
Later he says there are several people he reads as town that he hasn't mentioned. This makes no sense as he's already listed who he thinks the scum team is, implying his town read on everyone else.
Pseudo-moves onto his counterwagon, disappears.
Mentions zindabad for the first time in his latest post, non-committal confession that he hasn't looked at him but there 'may be something there.' I don't recall ANY interaction between them up to that point.
Why zindabad is scum
His opening post translates into "I think scum would react in a panicked fashion to Az's outing of the Gruul mechanic. I think AI may have done this."
Why this makes him scum: The immediate upshot is that zindabad has inside information about Az's alignment. Why else would he think scum would react negatively to this announcement? Furthermore he tries to implicate AI in this, and if he really thought it would be a 'profitable exercise' i.e. benefical to town he would have done it himself. Another upshot is that he knows AI is town.
In his next post he attempts to implicate Rhand and casts some mild suspicion on Sep. Again he uses the phrase "I think I saw..." This implies he has no interest in confirming his suspicions but would prefer to breed suspicion in others, have others do the work for him.
The next post is interesting. Instead of directing it to a general audience like the first two, he speaks to ZDS and hans directly. There's no real grilling or questioning. It reads more as a critique, which makes sense if he's talking to scum buddies.
In the wall o' text he calls content, he accuses hans of slipping. This is about as strong a scum read one can give on another player, yet there's nothing. He's succeeded in implicating hans, tying into my previous point. Basically this entire post is a jumble of poor jabs and requests for other people to participate more.
Next post: "Why isn't anyone scum reading AE?" vs in the previous post "I can't even decide if AE is scum."
Then another wall of text in which he puts an FoS on Cythare and me and accuses Az of sounding forced. I've lost count of how many people he's cast non-committal suspicion on at this point. His refusal to claim or deny Gruul just reeks of an excuse not to back anything he says up with a vote while not locking himself into a claim. He ends it with a brilliant PBPA of AE, the conclusion to which he seemed to have forgotten to include.
The next posts look nervous.
When explicitly asked if he town reads AI he gives a wishy-washy "I don't think he's been particularly town." Then he calls AE obvscum. What the literal *****.
Later we see an FoS on ZDS and Az. That's got to be over half the players he's pretended to be suspicious of.
@zindabad: Give me two strong town reads.
Time for them to start voting. End this day. It's gone on long enough.
No I figured I'd lay off you a bit because you kept fussing about it. That's what I do, I tunnel. When you find a scum why not stick to him? Others have expressed their thoughts about you so if they want to vote they will.
Not a misrep, you were implying AI panicked. You wanted townies to jump on that. So you were misrepn' him. Saying something, or implying something that was not true, falsifying.
Well lets look, this is what AI says after Az claims the Gruul mech.
"Oh that is interesting. I am not Gruul but support a guild claim."
Then replies to Proph saying is anti-town. Then later claims his guild. He never was against it. Your reaching for things.
I love how you say you have taken me apart so many times. I'll just leave that one alone. If that helps you sleep at night, have at it.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
@AE: That bit about tunnelling was obviously a contrived attempt to make yourself look town because a few other players have stated your meta is to tunnel. If you were really tunneling you'd never leave off whether I "fussed" or not. Pathetic attempt to backtrack.
Here's what AE said that I commented on: "It's a decidedly anti-town clan ability." You would know that if you were making even a token attempt to research what you post.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Funny, I'm not backtracking anything. Just waiting for the town to get their act together and start voting you. If not I'll wait till day 2 to lynch you. I'm fine.
Now to what you quoted you commented on. What of it? I did post he said it was anti town. What's your point?
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Right now I'm leaning hawk, but, again, this is discussing an apathy lynch and we should probably try to avoid that in the first place.
Ill be sure to take it as a defense and not an insult.
I support the following Lynches toDay:
AI because mutual hatred is mutual
Hawk because his play and wording was just so off and its been bothering me non-stop.
1. That's not very nice.
2. That's not very townie.
here. If that's the case, it makes it look even worse that you yourself can't keep the two of them straight, especially given the amount of your attention they have appeared to attract between the two of them.
I'm guessing he himself can't keep them straight.
Its nice to have options.
God, this post just reeks of opportunism. Just when I was ready to back off of KoolKoal, he posts this. :/
I suppose I'll have to investigate more in the morning.
I am voting for him. 100% of the reason I'm not using my real vote is mechanics related. In terms of the pressure and commitment, nothing is different.
His posts are all just short opinion blurbs, he seems to constantly change his reads. I get a sense of town paranoia.
The fact that two of the people he pressures are on the wagon of the third does seem suspicious. But it could also be explained by a townie who's in over his head and isn't paying much attention. I think kj's posts will provide more clues to his alignment than snurfy's will. I didn't get anything from his last post though.
It seems to me your entire scumhunting method is just "jump on anyone who uses a pseudovote." It might be viable elsewhere but this is like the worst possible game to do that.
I've seen zindabad suddenly perk up near a deadline before as scum. I believe it was Symbiote or Goo Mafia.
However, KoolKoal's reaction is causing me to second-guess that meta read. Sadly, I don't think lynching him is viable toDay.
I would still like Atog lynched. He hasn't done anything to convince me that he's town, and I don't think we can afford to have him as an unknown as the game continues.
@Proph: look at Zindabad's big post at the part where he adressed Azrael for the first time. That is the kind of linking that I am talking about when I dislike links.
unvote, vote Zindabad
My guess is that I'm actually onto something here and it's in your best interest to fight me on it. I very clearly list my reasons for my scum reads and instead of explaining to me why I'm wrong you pick two minor aspects of it and mock them. Did you even read the whole thing?
Atog, your responses are just backpedaling. You say things and then say you didn't mean them later. And it absolutely most certainly was me who called you out on it, or did you forget this exchange:
As far as AI goes, I think he did a very fair pbpa which means he is probably town. Yes I waited to post that Cythare because I didn't want him to see my view of him and have thay bias anything.
Anyways, atog saying that I'm town is something that I didn't expect. I assumed atog was scum and wad going to paint me.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Something something scum sensing blood in the water
This wasn't addressed to me, but
Azrael uses some pretty strong language there (I think you caught scum). Considering an AI lynch isn't likely to happen now, I'm just curious why he felt it wasn't vote worthy.
The following two comments are incredibly scummy.
The first takes self-consciousness to the max, and the second is the Stormbind-from-Hats tell. I can get behind lynching one of these two if everyone else is against lynching Hawk. Huntzilla replaced hansanator, right? I might reread him today.
IMO we're suffering from a LOT of tunneling right now. At least half the players in the game (myself included) have been tunneling hard for most of the day. Anyone who is pushing a lynch that isn't viable needs to stop and re-assess.
Unvote
Vote: zindabad
I'm surprised this even needs to be explained 3 weeks in. It's because I'm gruul.
I understood the Gruul mechanic to be one where Gruul votes in succession counted more. No one else was on Proph.
I used that phrasing intentionally to breadcrumb.
We're just supposed to believe this.
Never read vish and hans as anything but town/null. There's nothing saying anything about #of scum, you're reaching.
Right, because the Vish comment earlier was a bait test. But you said you liked your vote on hans, and when you proclaim that scum team = {p1, p2, ..., pn} the immediate implication is that there are n players on the scum team. It's not reaching. It's modus ponens.
Reads can change when people post scummy. In this case, AI posted scummy.
Sure but you didn't question AI. You didn't even point out anything you found scummy.
Later he says there are several people he reads as town that he hasn't mentioned. This makes no sense as he's already listed who he thinks the scum team is, implying his town read on everyone else. No. You're reaching really far here.
Nothing but evasion from you.
No duh why do you think I wanted to look at him
OK so what do you think?
1. This post was bad:
2. Hans never claimed Gruul (which Huntzilla did) despite Azrael making a pretty good case that all Gruul players should claim. I actually dislike this quite a bit, as keeping that hidden makes a lot of sense from a scum mindset.
I wasn't tying them together at all. I mentioned that they had virtually no interactions, but that's it. You haven't pointed out the "particularly non-sensical" logic. If you think I'm mistaken, why aren't you trying to show me why I'm wrong?
I've repeatedly stated that Atog, zinda, and hans are my scum reads. Deduce from that what you will.
Zindabad has made it abundantly clear that he has no desire to defend himself. And if you and zindabad are in agreement that my case is garbage, what is there for zinda to defend himself against? You can't have it both ways.
By minor I meant that you picked the first two points I made and ignored everything else, hence my belief that you never read the rest.
Recommend me?
Is killjoy based on snurfy, or do you also take issue with killjoy's posts after replacing in?
This feels a lot like a scum post.
I'm still onboard for Atog or hawk, and zindabad would be fine too. I don't think I want to lynch AI.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)