I'm having a hard time seeing the scenario where scum-Atog, under significant pressure, comes in to try to save himself by bussing scum-AI. I guess it's wifom but the simplest explanation is that getting AI lynched is Atog's best chance at survival.
AI before you told me you don't have a reason to know Vish isn't great at mafia, but I seem to recall you being present in watching Vish get lynched D1 a couple of Clan Contest Mafias ago. Am I wrong?
Are we talking about where I got lynched as scum D2? Because that was pretty terrible.
Btw can i get your thoughts on my comment regarding Zinda? (actually anyone else is free to comment i just get the feeling im being ignored and i want some attention).
I took note of your post earlier, and at this point it fits with my general read on Zinda so far: Can't tell if suspicious, or just bad.
AI before you told me you don't have a reason to know Vish isn't great at mafia, but I seem to recall you being present in watching Vish get lynched D1 a couple of Clan Contest Mafias ago. Am I wrong?
Maybe? It must have been years ago. I've seen a lot of n00bs in my time, so one player's poor play doesn't tend to leave much of an impact. You probably remember it more because you've played a greater percentage of your games with him.
I don't really care if you think I'm scum as long as Atog gets lynched toDay.
I'm still trying to figure out why people think AI is scum over Atog.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
I'm pretty much down to lynch AI, atog or obzedat.
Reading proph interact with AI is like watching a dentist pull teeth.
Between these two posts...
I posted twice (and one of them was a pirate face so that doesn't even count).
Snurfy posted once (a hit-and-run post).
Scarbo made his case about the Obzedat lynch, which Hawk /barned... why are you barning someone you want to lynch?
The AI wagon made traction.
On Rhand vs dkings: It might just be burn from Iji, but I'm going to take Rhand's side here. Rhand is showing signs of clear frustration when he's dealing with dkings:
When has Rhand ever handled pressure well, as either alignment?
To compare, look at dkings's posts right now and look at his posts from Wu-Tang, where he completely flips out when he accuses Rhand of being scum:
There is a distinct difference between Wu-Tang and this game that you are neglecting in your comparison... I flipped out in Wu-Tang because Rhand was flat-out lying about a completed game to twist facts and discredit my ability as a player.
I just reviewed Atog's posts and saw no reason why he should be lynched. Why are the rest of y'all wanting to kill him?
What specifically do you like about Atog's posts? His asking of Proph (who he had voiced a strong scum read on) to verify another of his scum reads was pretty egregious.
I'm still trying to figure out why people think AI is scum over Atog.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
Hardly sounds like a reason to think he's scum. Maybe you're just butthurt? What else you got?
Actually zindabad I voted you for the exact same reason AE did, and he never said anything whatsoever about 'old meta/I got nothing.' He switched to AI because he interpreted your post as a weak bus attempt on AI and you had resumed lurking. So why are you misconstruing the situation?
I'm still trying to figure out why people think AI is scum over Atog.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
You've played enough games with him to know that "potshot and lurk" is his MO.
Atog voted AI to stay alive. Then AI says that he doesn't care if people think he is scum, as long as atog gets lynched today.
If you actually bothered to read the thread, you would know that you are not alone in that thought. I find your failure to understand what is happening (for at least the second time) scummy.
Here's my take on Atog. If anyone wants to add their own brick to the edifice (and I can think of a few players who should have bricks to add), they can.
It all started with Taredas' vote. It's a weak case (I read Atog's previous posts as null), made during the post-Sepiriel wagon lull, when all cases were weak and new wagons had a hard time taking off. Then Rhand followed, barning Taredas and himself (there is a tiny possibility that it really is Taredas who barned Rhand, but I doubt it).
Atogaholic responded by retaliating against both Rhand and Taredas, in a post where he barely addresses Taredas' case, and focuses his answers to Rhand and Taredas on... Prophylaxis. As if he's trying to disguise the obvious "OMG U Suck for voting me" into a "OMG U Suck for disagreeing with me about another player".
That last post got a few players to take interest in him, although only Prophylaxis joined the wagon (he furthered his push in his post with all his reads). I made a fence-sitty comment about Atog, where I call him out on OMGUSing (an accusation first made by Proph). He responded with some cryptic statement, in a post where he also addresses Proph just enough to make it clear he's ignoring him. Also of interest in this post is him barning you about AI. For context, he also barned you about Vishamon back then, making it look a lot like he's buddying up to you.
After this there was a new burst of negative attention. I ask him to make some clarifications. In a rare incidence of answering accusations and other concerns (not just mine), he does and calls himself "lynch bait" (which created mixed reactions; see for example AI doubling down and Proph backing off). Heevenhogsthethread for a while, until I asked him how exactly he made himself "lynch bait".
I asked him the 11th, after that he posted once the 13th (and gave me a cryptic, useless answer), and... that's it. We're the 16th, and it's looking an awful lot like Atog is avoiding the thread. Of course there could be a legitimate reason for his absence, but I don't believe in coincidences this convenient.
.....
Zindabad:
This behaviour coming from Archmage doesn't shock me.
.....
Mod: Can we have a votecount, please?
.....
I'm down for an Atog claim, and will vote him if able. I have waited long enough for a proper answer to the "lynch bait" thing (that may never come).
Thanks ZDS, that's invaluable.
In sum then, he's done the following:
1. OMGUS his RVS attackers.
2. Barned me repeatedly
3. Fails to fully respond to cases/queries
4. He's now MIA
5. Claims he expected the scum to attack him, hence the OMGUS.
Let me know if I've missed anything.
-I don't view the OMGUS as a strong tell to begin with, and especially under these circumstances. While they were weak cases, but if he entered the game with the preconceived notion that the people attacking him were probable scum, that's a fairly easily explained reaction.
-Read-barning - not often alignment indicative, and the way he's gone about it doesn't look particularly egregious.
-Going MIA and failing to fully respond to cases also occur frequently, especially from less experienced townies.
That said, on my original read on Atog something about his posts pinged me, probably the barning sans explanation and the weak cases. It's always disconcerting when someone does a poor job of documenting good reasons for their positions. But not every player who doesn't justify their reads well is doing it because they're scum.
I didn't find a whole lot of confirmatory town tells in his posts, but there are a few:
Quote from Atog »
The vote + the phrase "scum sensing blood in the water" is what did it. If Vish really was, he'd be voting for me instead.
Simple, I'm what you what call "lynch bait." I have relatively low mafia experience, I'm a stranger to the majority of people in this game, I haven't been lurking, and I'm town. Basically I'm the perfect target for scum to try to lynch today. In case you haven't already figured it out, the other person who I think fulfills these qualities is Vish. That's why I've been hunting for scum primarily in the people who've been voting for him and myself.
This post is pretty telling. Atog has a very clear idea of what his mindset is and has been, and acts in consistency with it.
Now, if Atog is scum, that means that he's been capable of devising a clear and coherent false mindset to adopt and/or to present to the town, but has been ineffective in adequately responding to queries. That would be an odd mismatch in his scum defensive capabilities.
Quote from atog »
Ugh, missed this because of preview
1. Eh I don't think Rhand fits anymore but Proph and Taredas are definitely scum
2. Dunno, maybe because my wagon started first?
3. heh, I deliberately left the wording ambiguous to try and use him as bait. I said his wagon 'looked promising,' meaning I saw the potential to catch scum hopping onto it. (Which I did) Notice I also said he was misinterpreting a quote, which is a mistake town can make as well as scum
Again, another small consistency in his own description of his mindset and play. He's being cryptic and mysterious - because apparently he's attempting to lay traps for scum. And he's continuing to look for them in the same places that he mentioned them earlier.
Quote from Atog »
I admit I've been more arrogant than usual this game, but I can assure you I don't have an inferiority complex. I don't see myself as a subpar player, but I'm sure you and your buddies see me as easy prey. (It's okay, I'm not offended)
Again, consistent with self-described mindset, doesn't read artificial.
Quote from Atog »
I don't share which people I have a town read on until I have to -- I prefer to focus entirely on scumhunting. What you should have said is "Nothing in your posts indicated that you had a scum read on Vish" which is more indicative of my thoughts on his alignment than anything else.
The bait thing has been my strat this entire game, I'm pretty pleased with what it turned up as well.
And this says a lot about his mentality as well. If his entire play up till now has been focused around being cagey, intentionally not providing full explanations, and trying to deceive the scum into unwise attacks, I think that fully explains the tells which pinged me on my original read.
He reads as cagey and secretive, because he's being cagey, and secretive. But not for a scum-motivated reason.
I think it's far more likely that Atog is a townie who's pinging people as deceptive and cagey because he self-consciously altered his play in preparation for catching scum, and has kept his reads close to his chest as a result. He reads as hostile and secretive because he constantly keeps in mind that the scum are reading his posts, looking for information on HIS mindset and reads. I don't see that as very likely to be something he made up as a brilliant scum gambit, his story fits with his posting pretty well and such gambits from scum are neither advantageous or common.
Atog is probably town.
His posting style isn't conducive to producing classically townie tells, there's no sky-letters that indicate a townie mindset, but his self-described mindset is consistent with how he's been posting, is unlikely to be faked, and fully explains the behaviors that led to the case against him. I don't see a credible reason to do more than keep an eye on him, and encourage him to be more forthcoming with his future reads, votes, and analyses so that he can be read accurately and hopefully accurately confirmed.
I don't find those points strong enough to consider Atog town. I can see them all coming from a scum player. The mismatch about the coherent false mindset and the inability to respond to queries is the only point that is compelling, but is still something I can see coming from a scum player who is focusing on consistency to the point where they're unable to deviate from their plan.
If Atog's not the lynch for the day, though, I'm getting to the point where I'd prefer hawk to AI.
I'm still trying to figure out why people think AI is scum over Atog.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
I don't find those points strong enough to consider Atog town. I can see them all coming from a scum player. The mismatch about the coherent false mindset and the inability to respond to queries is the only point that is compelling, but is still something I can see coming from a scum player who is focusing on consistency to the point where they're unable to deviate from their plan.
If Atog's not the lynch for the day, though, I'm getting to the point where I'd prefer hawk to AI.
Could come from a scum player. Could also easily come from a town player. Sign of a wagon I don't want to be on.
I don't find those points strong enough to consider Atog town. I can see them all coming from a scum player. The mismatch about the coherent false mindset and the inability to respond to queries is the only point that is compelling, but is still something I can see coming from a scum player who is focusing on consistency to the point where they're unable to deviate from their plan.
If Atog's not the lynch for the day, though, I'm getting to the point where I'd prefer hawk to AI.
Could come from a scum player. Could also easily come from a town player. Sign of a wagon I don't want to be on.
I guess? I just don't see how that led to the conclusion that he's probably town.
I found scarbo scummy early game but he brought up a good point about obzedat that I was willing to go along with. Also if you want questions answered directly, saying your question instead of something implicit like (I'd like hawk to comment on this) is a much better way to get an answer.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
You come back with this? How long are you going to try and figure this out for? You have this long absence and all you've been doing is trying to figure this out? What's your take on AI? Do you still think there is something with his panicking reaction early on?
Actually zindabad I voted you for the exact same reason AE did, and he never said anything whatsoever about 'old meta/I got nothing.' He switched to AI because he interpreted your post as a weak bus attempt on AI and you had resumed lurking. So why are you misconstruing the situation?
Atog voted AI to stay alive. Then AI says that he doesn't care if people think he is scum, as long as atog gets lynched today.
If you actually bothered to read the thread, you would know that you are not alone in that thought. I find your failure to understand what is happening (for at least the second time) scummy.
I guess? I just don't see how that led to the conclusion that he's probably town.
If the case against him is invalid, and I'm seeing a self-consistent explanation for his behavior that's pretty rationale, and no other strong scum tells, I'd call that a pretty reasonable chance of being town.
I took a closer look at Scarbo - he needs a dedicated post, but the short version is that he's probably scum with AI. His "is this a slip?" towards Atog is probably scum trying to make a "Gotcha!" on a vulnerable-seeming townie, especially since he suggested that it was a slip - which is exactly what he did in Disney Villains, and I checked his three most recent town games (Wu-Tang, UT, Dinosaurs Lost in Time) and the only time he talked about slips in *any* of those was in response to one of Rhand's comments in Wu-Tang (and he didn't accuse anyone of slipping in *any* of those games).
Which is another point in Atog's favor, since *both* of the players trying to ram through that lynch are likely scum. (I'm starting to wonder if scum have daychat, actually - this feels like a coordinated attempt to push through a mislynch before it falls apart, especially since Az [who has a tendency of analyzing and derailing wagons on town] is in the game and likely town.)
Atog voted AI to stay alive. Then AI says that he doesn't care if people think he is scum, as long as atog gets lynched today.
It's *possible*, but I don't think it's likely? Scum don't generally try to rush through lynches on their partners, since they *know* their partners will flip scum and don't need to push the mislynch through before people realize what's going on - the only way that makes sense is if AI is trying a squeeze play and intentionally attacking a buddy like he would attack town (so that one of AI/Atog is falsecleared when the other when he flips scum), and we can deal with that possibility later if necessary because AI is scum either way.
lol like I could get away with Atog being a mislynch "because I didn't vote."
The vote is completely irrelevant to actual pressure, as you can see by the pathetic way Atog has flopped onto my wagon.
That's the entire point! Yes, you were pressuring Atog without voting him - and that means you are scum because there was no reason for you to keep your vote on Vishamon if you are town and there *is* if you are scum who doesn't want to commit with a vote.
@Taredas: Please explain how me questioning Az's inconsistency with voting is remotely similar to whatever you're trying to compare me to in a game I've never even read. Take into consideration that I have no idea what Az's alignment is because, as zindabad stated, he always plays the role of master manipulator and we have no bodies with which to analyze his intentions.
You "have no idea what Az's alignment is"? Bullfeathers. I'm pretty sure you know *exactly* what Az's alignment is, because his name isn't listed in your role PM. If you were *actually* town who wasn't sure about Az's alignment, you'd be trying to figure out whether Az's attack on you came from a town or scum mindset; instead, you've been *dismissing* it, which is prototypical scum reacting to pressure from town.
And I already explained the similarity - in WitchHunt, TMCT (who had barely even interacted with me before, much less expressed a scum read) was scum who I had just nailed:
Citric, why are you almost completely discounting Shenanigans? It exists to bugger up plans just like yours. And a BoD claim without a massclaim, at this point, doesn't make sense with that in mind.
The best use of Tanarin's shot is hitting Cantrip -- since no one wants to no lynch, evidently.
Uh, wait.
Your response to Citrus's plan... is to write it off via fearmongering ("what about Shenanigans") using language that plays up the threat you're trying to sell ("almost completely discounting", "bugger up") and implicitly attack the person proposing the plan without actually doing so?
That's textbook scum flailing in response to a proposed town autowin, and probably an attempt to coach Demons to boot.
And that's on *top* of how you acted at the end of D1.
Thanks for claiming scum, we'll deal with you at our earliest convenience.
TMCT responded by a bad attempt at explanation, and then tried to paint part of my post as a slip (i.e, that I had posted plural "Demons" [the term for dead scum in WitchHunt, which has a player-participation-after-death component] because I knew that multiple scum were dead):
You're doing the same thing here - when Az started to attack you and somebody else pointed out an apparent inconsistency, you jumped on it in order to try to paint it as scummy. When that didn't get any traction, you bailed, writing it off as "useless" and going full-steam on your counterwagon - if you were actually town, you'd have engaged Az's "it's because I'm scum" comment, not written it off.
You "have no idea what Az's alignment is"? Bullfeathers. I'm pretty sure you know *exactly* what Az's alignment is, because his name isn't listed in your role PM. If you were *actually* town who wasn't sure about Az's alignment, you'd be trying to figure out whether Az's attack on you came from a town or scum mindset; instead, you've been *dismissing* it, which is prototypical scum reacting to pressure from town.
All right, I'm willing to go along on the AI thing. For me I think it boils down to "wrong attitude."
Vote: AsianInvasion
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I'm taking the path of least resistance because I don't feel like going toe-to-toe with Az. If being lazy is scummy, then I guess I'm playing the wrong game.
I didn't at the time, but it's not like that's been my only post. Also, what do you mean by "pot, kettle, black"? I haven't accused anyone of any content-related issues, so this just feels out of place.
Pot, kettle, black was for me - I hadn't contributed much, but I was asking you why you hadn't contributed.
You even preface it with "useless post incoming." And it's interesting how you try to say "it's not like that was my only post", as if you had presented lots of content. Watch this space.
What did I like about dkingsland's post? Tone, mostly. I don't particularly agree with his conclusion about Rhand, as I feel Rhand is almost certain to be overzealous town, but his post felt open and honest, not crafted like half the posts in this game.
Well, that's the first time anyone's compared me to Littlefinger. *grimace* I don't mind the Varys comparison quite so much, and I suspect you're wronging him in that characterization. Varys plays by his own rules, but he follows them.
Still, a shadow-lurker doesn't sound very much like me at all. Quiet? Subtle? Let the rest of the town lead the charge? Sitting quietly spinning webs in a back alley doesn't sound like me in the slightest. I think you'd strike closer to the mark if Daenerys and Varys had a child.
Are you kidding me? OK, maybe I'm biased, since I can only remember playing with you as scum, but subtle and letting everyone else do the work that you nudge them towards sounds exactly like you.
That's some heavy hyperbole you're laying down there, sir. Half of his posts I read as null, and I straight out admitted that I needed clarification on what he meant calling for a vigilante, to avoid misrepping him.
Is your alignment coloring your read, or your personal dislike?
AI is going to flip scum. His voting rationales and the mannerisms of his defense are rife with classic scum mistakes. Even you pointed that out in your previous post - before seeing fit for some reason to argue with a PBPA that reached similar conclusions about his voting history.
Whether it's AI today, or whether someone like Atog should go first is yet to be determined. And who his buddies might be. But I don't expect to learn I'm wrong about my AI read. Do you?
Of course you read half his posts as null, considering you PBPA'd a player who has a million posts, even including things like "V/LA #1". AI's signal-to-noise ratio practically guarantees half his posts will be devoid of content anyway. No, this attack on AI felt - and I know I've been saying this a lot in this game - planned, like it was timed to relieve pressure from Atog and amp up a weak counter-wagon on AI.
5)I really want to laugh at zinda... i mean he is clearly suddenly giving me a lot of experience cred, and telling us that the self-meta defense is really weak and all that, but in the big ass post he just made he used self meta when responding to AI's post
Yeah. That was to him suggesting I was going to be replaced. That's got nothing to do with my alignment. I've never been replaced, town or scum, in probably 60 games.
But see dkings that's my whole beef. If we agree we have to deal with Obzedat eventually, why hinge it upon how today goes? What if we mislynch? We just keep putting it off, and any detrimental effects Obzedat has on the game continue. If it is the case that Immortal Servitude goes away with Obzedat's death (baseless speculation but not out of the realm of possibilities), the sooner the better. Plus getting it out of the way now will give us tomorrow with a presumable NK flip and some potentially useful night action results. Really the only thing I'm hearing as a reason not to lynch Obzedat now is 'we don't know that it will be useful,' but we also don't know that it won't be useful. Sure, I understand that the Orzhov don't want to lynch their guildleader, but it doesn't look like anyone is really aware of what's going with it.
This seems like a different flavor of the D1 NL argument and it's just as bad. The reason not to lynch Obzedat now is that catching scum with our day periods is more important than putzing around with roles of dubious provenance that will undoubtedly become clear soon enough, and wasting a lynch on something that might not even be lynchable or actually real is a good smokescreen for scum to hide behind.
What if we did a mass guild association But not a guild mechanics claim. Reasoning is what if a scum gruul avoids wagons and says he is another guild. Later on he could quick hammer if other gruul are voting.
I don't see why this would be a problem. I still don't want orzhov or simic claiming the guild power unless necessary.
To be clear, I don't understand the delineation here between guild association and mechanics when some of this is already in the thread. Also, given that the mechanic is dialed up from RtR, I don't want to mass claim. I can see the logic of locking the scum in (I guess), but I don't really see how this helps at all when they've been "seamlessly integrated into the other guilds" anyways. There's nothing to catch them on.
And so was this as well. Any time you would like to begin posting actual content, please go ahead. FoS: Cythare.
Zindabad, this is the second time you have made a post suggesting you are Gruul without confirming one way or the other. I want you to state *explicitly* whether or not you are Gruul, for reasons I will explain after you've done so.
So, I spent most of my day in the emergency room. It doesn't appear serious, but I don't feel so great right now. I see Atog has responded, but I don't know what I think about it yet.
Actually zindabad I voted you for the exact same reason AE did, and he never said anything whatsoever about 'old meta/I got nothing.' He switched to AI because he interpreted your post as a weak bus attempt on AI and you had resumed lurking. So why are you misconstruing the situation?
@ZDS
Something I remember. It's been sooo long now since we've played. But also notice how quiet he's been.
He's got nothing, he admits it, and chalks that up to the meta being old. So why make the accusation in the first place? It is only in that post, where he admits the meta argument that he actually voted me for back in 148 does not exist, that he makes something else up about a bus on AI or some nonsense. So if you voted me for the "exact same reason" that AE did, viz. nonexistent meta, then you must be as scum as he is. FoS: scarbo.
You've played enough games with him to know that "potshot and lurk" is his MO.
He hasn't just been on the periphery this game, he's been so far off it that he has one foot in a different game. The fixation on me gives him something to talk about to look as if he's contributing.
I don't find those points strong enough to consider Atog town. I can see them all coming from a scum player. The mismatch about the coherent false mindset and the inability to respond to queries is the only point that is compelling, but is still something I can see coming from a scum player who is focusing on consistency to the point where they're unable to deviate from their plan.
If Atog's not the lynch for the day, though, I'm getting to the point where I'd prefer hawk to AI.
Three people brought up as possible lynch candidates, none of whom you've done any legwork on.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
You come back with this? How long are you going to try and figure this out for? You have this long absence and all you've been doing is trying to figure this out? What's your take on AI? Do you still think there is something with his panicking reaction early on?
I've contributed more in one post than you have this whole game. Guessing you missed that one, probably because you aren't reading. Nice attempt to deflect onto AI though. Let's talk about you and how you haven't done anything all game.
58: Guild claims Boros. 70: Calling hawk scum with Proph (who he hasn't said a word about, naturally.) 81: Accusation against Rhand as well. Notice how both this post and 70 are rhetorical questions meant not to elicit an actual response but to just call the target scum. 108: We're off on the zindabad train. A naked vote on YT. 148: Straight barn on Az re: Vishamon, justifies his naked vote on me with meta, but then can't support that meta with an example when asked. 224: Chalks up his vote on me to "something I remember" and "how quiet he's been." He actually has nothing. Now he's suggesting a me-AI scumteam based on...saying exactly nothing about AI so far. 266: Peripheral mechanics question @hawk. 307: Backs the Gruul choice not to vote (why wouldn't he, his scumbuddy Az is one of them), straight barns Proph re: AI, and accuses me of "hiding." To review, this is the same Proph he called scum in his second post with no justification but hasn't said a word about since, and the same AI that he's now called scum twice based on absolutely nothing. 422: Needs to catch up. 462: And we're back where we started - you covering your own lack of evidence and content with attacks on me. Discounting 422, which was basically a "I'm here" post, 5 of your 9 posts have been attacking me. You see where I get the idea of you being a reverse jinn from.
So, when are you going to contribute anything other than barns and unfounded attacks? Your move.
I voted you because you said someone should look into something you thought might be suspicious about AI without doing it yourself. It was a lazy attempt to sling mud at AI and if you were genuinely interested in it or thought something was there you would have done it yourself. I don't know anything about your meta.
You're casting suspicion on a lot of players. Where's your vote?
I'm taking the path of least resistance because I don't feel like going toe-to-toe with Az. If being lazy is scummy, then I guess I'm playing the wrong game.
Well, I'm just going to be real disappointed if you're town then.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I voted you because you said someone should look into something you thought might be suspicious about AI without doing it yourself. It was a lazy attempt to sling mud at AI and if you were genuinely interested in it or thought something was there you would have done it yourself. I don't know anything about your meta.
You're casting suspicion on a lot of players. Where's your vote?
Why'd you say you were voting me for the same reason as AE, then?
What is your comment on what I just posted that shows AE has no evidence for his attacks on me and has contributed nothing worthwhile all game?
Why are you not reading my posts? I have made it clear that I'll vote when I'm good and ready.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Are we talking about where I got lynched as scum D2? Because that was pretty terrible.
Maybe? It must have been years ago. I've seen a lot of n00bs in my time, so one player's poor play doesn't tend to leave much of an impact. You probably remember it more because you've played a greater percentage of your games with him.
I don't really care if you think I'm scum as long as Atog gets lynched toDay.
I'm still trying to figure out why AE hasn't figured in anyone's scumlists. He opened the game with a totally unfounded accusation against me, went "uhh, I got nothing, the meta's kinda old, I can just tell" when asked to show his evidence, and hasn't posted anything relevant since.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Still waiting for Hawk to comment on this.
When has Rhand ever handled pressure well, as either alignment?
There is a distinct difference between Wu-Tang and this game that you are neglecting in your comparison... I flipped out in Wu-Tang because Rhand was flat-out lying about a completed game to twist facts and discredit my ability as a player.
Also...
I would still like your opinion on this.
What specifically do you like about Atog's posts? His asking of Proph (who he had voiced a strong scum read on) to verify another of his scum reads was pretty egregious.
Atog voted AI to stay alive. Then AI says that he doesn't care if people think he is scum, as long as atog gets lynched today.
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Hardly sounds like a reason to think he's scum. Maybe you're just butthurt? What else you got?
Ahaha.
ZDS put together a good highlight reel. Everyone should read it.
You've played enough games with him to know that "potshot and lurk" is his MO.
If you actually bothered to read the thread, you would know that you are not alone in that thought. I find your failure to understand what is happening (for at least the second time) scummy.
Thanks ZDS, that's invaluable.
In sum then, he's done the following:
1. OMGUS his RVS attackers.
2. Barned me repeatedly
3. Fails to fully respond to cases/queries
4. He's now MIA
5. Claims he expected the scum to attack him, hence the OMGUS.
Let me know if I've missed anything.
-I don't view the OMGUS as a strong tell to begin with, and especially under these circumstances. While they were weak cases, but if he entered the game with the preconceived notion that the people attacking him were probable scum, that's a fairly easily explained reaction.
-Read-barning - not often alignment indicative, and the way he's gone about it doesn't look particularly egregious.
-Going MIA and failing to fully respond to cases also occur frequently, especially from less experienced townies.
That said, on my original read on Atog something about his posts pinged me, probably the barning sans explanation and the weak cases. It's always disconcerting when someone does a poor job of documenting good reasons for their positions. But not every player who doesn't justify their reads well is doing it because they're scum.
I didn't find a whole lot of confirmatory town tells in his posts, but there are a few:
This post is pretty telling. Atog has a very clear idea of what his mindset is and has been, and acts in consistency with it.
Now, if Atog is scum, that means that he's been capable of devising a clear and coherent false mindset to adopt and/or to present to the town, but has been ineffective in adequately responding to queries. That would be an odd mismatch in his scum defensive capabilities.
Again, another small consistency in his own description of his mindset and play. He's being cryptic and mysterious - because apparently he's attempting to lay traps for scum. And he's continuing to look for them in the same places that he mentioned them earlier.
Again, consistent with self-described mindset, doesn't read artificial.
And this says a lot about his mentality as well. If his entire play up till now has been focused around being cagey, intentionally not providing full explanations, and trying to deceive the scum into unwise attacks, I think that fully explains the tells which pinged me on my original read.
He reads as cagey and secretive, because he's being cagey, and secretive. But not for a scum-motivated reason.
I think it's far more likely that Atog is a townie who's pinging people as deceptive and cagey because he self-consciously altered his play in preparation for catching scum, and has kept his reads close to his chest as a result. He reads as hostile and secretive because he constantly keeps in mind that the scum are reading his posts, looking for information on HIS mindset and reads. I don't see that as very likely to be something he made up as a brilliant scum gambit, his story fits with his posting pretty well and such gambits from scum are neither advantageous or common.
Atog is probably town.
His posting style isn't conducive to producing classically townie tells, there's no sky-letters that indicate a townie mindset, but his self-described mindset is consistent with how he's been posting, is unlikely to be faked, and fully explains the behaviors that led to the case against him. I don't see a credible reason to do more than keep an eye on him, and encourage him to be more forthcoming with his future reads, votes, and analyses so that he can be read accurately and hopefully accurately confirmed.
Atog has been suspicious of AI along with me since early in the day. Not unexpected or inconsistent for him to vote AI.
hansanator (1): Sepiriel
Vishamon (1): Azrael
Atogaholic (6): 7hawk77, Obzedat, Cythare, dkingsland967, Scarbo, AI
Taredas (1): Atogaholic
AsianInvasion (4): Prophylaxis, Archmage Eternal, KoolKoal, Taredas
dkingsland967 (1): Rhand
V/LA
Proph - Until 3/17
Rhand - Until the heat death of the universe
Axelrod - Probably should have taken one
Prod Watch
Karn: 4 days
snurfy8: 4 days
Cythare: 3 days
dkingsland967: 3 days
Taredas 3
Tog: 3 days
Axelrod: 2 days
Sepiriel: 2 days
Anybody at 3 or 4 days needs to post by the end of today or receive an official prod.
Consider my vote on AI.
If Atog's not the lynch for the day, though, I'm getting to the point where I'd prefer hawk to AI.
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Unvote
Vote 7hawk77
We should lynch him.
I posted earlier today
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From OP:
(bold mine)
Maybe he's ignoring your unvotes because you're not putting them on their own line in your posts?
See:
1) My previous post
2) That I thanked his post before posting that
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unvote, vote AI
My preference has changed.
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UNVOTE
Could come from a scum player. Could also easily come from a town player. Sign of a wagon I don't want to be on.
lol why
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I currently think AI is more likely scum than atog. I'm not really sure why you think AI is town.
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I found scarbo scummy early game but he brought up a good point about obzedat that I was willing to go along with. Also if you want questions answered directly, saying your question instead of something implicit like (I'd like hawk to comment on this) is a much better way to get an answer.
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You come back with this? How long are you going to try and figure this out for? You have this long absence and all you've been doing is trying to figure this out? What's your take on AI? Do you still think there is something with his panicking reaction early on?
He's trying to throw mud and discredit me.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Yeah well obviously a changed preference implies you think AI is 'more likely' scum over atog. I'm asking why. You're deflecting.
Iso my posts to see why I'm on atog and why I think it implies AI is town.
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This is the only meaningful interaction that happened between hawk and anyone else since his previous post:
lol die scum die
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Vote: AI.
If the case against him is invalid, and I'm seeing a self-consistent explanation for his behavior that's pretty rationale, and no other strong scum tells, I'd call that a pretty reasonable chance of being town.
Which is another point in Atog's favor, since *both* of the players trying to ram through that lynch are likely scum. (I'm starting to wonder if scum have daychat, actually - this feels like a coordinated attempt to push through a mislynch before it falls apart, especially since Az [who has a tendency of analyzing and derailing wagons on town] is in the game and likely town.)
---
It's *possible*, but I don't think it's likely? Scum don't generally try to rush through lynches on their partners, since they *know* their partners will flip scum and don't need to push the mislynch through before people realize what's going on - the only way that makes sense is if AI is trying a squeeze play and intentionally attacking a buddy like he would attack town (so that one of AI/Atog is falsecleared when the other when he flips scum), and we can deal with that possibility later if necessary because AI is scum either way.
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That's the entire point! Yes, you were pressuring Atog without voting him - and that means you are scum because there was no reason for you to keep your vote on Vishamon if you are town and there *is* if you are scum who doesn't want to commit with a vote.
You "have no idea what Az's alignment is"? Bullfeathers. I'm pretty sure you know *exactly* what Az's alignment is, because his name isn't listed in your role PM. If you were *actually* town who wasn't sure about Az's alignment, you'd be trying to figure out whether Az's attack on you came from a town or scum mindset; instead, you've been *dismissing* it, which is prototypical scum reacting to pressure from town.
And I already explained the similarity - in WitchHunt, TMCT (who had barely even interacted with me before, much less expressed a scum read) was scum who I had just nailed:
TMCT responded by a bad attempt at explanation, and then tried to paint part of my post as a slip (i.e, that I had posted plural "Demons" [the term for dead scum in WitchHunt, which has a player-participation-after-death component] because I knew that multiple scum were dead):
You're doing the same thing here - when Az started to attack you and somebody else pointed out an apparent inconsistency, you jumped on it in order to try to paint it as scummy. When that didn't get any traction, you bailed, writing it off as "useless" and going full-steam on your counterwagon - if you were actually town, you'd have engaged Az's "it's because I'm scum" comment, not written it off.
You're scum. Get lynched.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
This. ^ *nods*
Vote: AsianInvasion
At least you're willing to admit it!
Pot, kettle, black was for me - I hadn't contributed much, but I was asking you why you hadn't contributed.
You even preface it with "useless post incoming." And it's interesting how you try to say "it's not like that was my only post", as if you had presented lots of content. Watch this space.
What did I like about dkingsland's post? Tone, mostly. I don't particularly agree with his conclusion about Rhand, as I feel Rhand is almost certain to be overzealous town, but his post felt open and honest, not crafted like half the posts in this game.
This felt...completely forced.
Are you kidding me? OK, maybe I'm biased, since I can only remember playing with you as scum, but subtle and letting everyone else do the work that you nudge them towards sounds exactly like you.
Of course you read half his posts as null, considering you PBPA'd a player who has a million posts, even including things like "V/LA #1". AI's signal-to-noise ratio practically guarantees half his posts will be devoid of content anyway. No, this attack on AI felt - and I know I've been saying this a lot in this game - planned, like it was timed to relieve pressure from Atog and amp up a weak counter-wagon on AI.
Yeah. That was to him suggesting I was going to be replaced. That's got nothing to do with my alignment. I've never been replaced, town or scum, in probably 60 games.
This seems like a different flavor of the D1 NL argument and it's just as bad. The reason not to lynch Obzedat now is that catching scum with our day periods is more important than putzing around with roles of dubious provenance that will undoubtedly become clear soon enough, and wasting a lynch on something that might not even be lynchable or actually real is a good smokescreen for scum to hide behind.
So, this was a post solely about mechanics.
And so was this as well. Any time you would like to begin posting actual content, please go ahead.
FoS: Cythare.
I'm going to pass on that. All in good time.
Get better soon.
Do you reckon? See below:
He's got nothing, he admits it, and chalks that up to the meta being old. So why make the accusation in the first place? It is only in that post, where he admits the meta argument that he actually voted me for back in 148 does not exist, that he makes something else up about a bus on AI or some nonsense. So if you voted me for the "exact same reason" that AE did, viz. nonexistent meta, then you must be as scum as he is.
FoS: scarbo.
He hasn't just been on the periphery this game, he's been so far off it that he has one foot in a different game. The fixation on me gives him something to talk about to look as if he's contributing.
Three people brought up as possible lynch candidates, none of whom you've done any legwork on.
I've contributed more in one post than you have this whole game. Guessing you missed that one, probably because you aren't reading. Nice attempt to deflect onto AI though. Let's talk about you and how you haven't done anything all game.
58: Guild claims Boros.
70: Calling hawk scum with Proph (who he hasn't said a word about, naturally.)
81: Accusation against Rhand as well. Notice how both this post and 70 are rhetorical questions meant not to elicit an actual response but to just call the target scum.
108: We're off on the zindabad train. A naked vote on YT.
148: Straight barn on Az re: Vishamon, justifies his naked vote on me with meta, but then can't support that meta with an example when asked.
224: Chalks up his vote on me to "something I remember" and "how quiet he's been." He actually has nothing. Now he's suggesting a me-AI scumteam based on...saying exactly nothing about AI so far.
266: Peripheral mechanics question @hawk.
307: Backs the Gruul choice not to vote (why wouldn't he, his scumbuddy Az is one of them), straight barns Proph re: AI, and accuses me of "hiding." To review, this is the same Proph he called scum in his second post with no justification but hasn't said a word about since, and the same AI that he's now called scum twice based on absolutely nothing.
422: Needs to catch up.
462: And we're back where we started - you covering your own lack of evidence and content with attacks on me. Discounting 422, which was basically a "I'm here" post, 5 of your 9 posts have been attacking me. You see where I get the idea of you being a reverse jinn from.
So, when are you going to contribute anything other than barns and unfounded attacks? Your move.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
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I voted you because you said someone should look into something you thought might be suspicious about AI without doing it yourself. It was a lazy attempt to sling mud at AI and if you were genuinely interested in it or thought something was there you would have done it yourself. I don't know anything about your meta.
You're casting suspicion on a lot of players. Where's your vote?
Well, I'm just going to be real disappointed if you're town then.
Why'd you say you were voting me for the same reason as AE, then?
What is your comment on what I just posted that shows AE has no evidence for his attacks on me and has contributed nothing worthwhile all game?
Why are you not reading my posts? I have made it clear that I'll vote when I'm good and ready.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
2. I think it's full of crap, a lot like you.
3. That's not good enough.
Unvote
Vote: zindabad