There is zero evidence that lynching Obzedat will result in the Immortal Servitude going away. Zero. That was a completely baseless speculation. And while baseless speculation is fine and all, actually advocating a lynch based off of it is not. The simplest explanation is that it's just an anonymous vote. Which is not that big a deal.
I figure that there has to be some way to make it so that ~1/4 of the player base doesn't stay unconfirmed, but my post was baseless spec. It's definitely not worth the D1 lynch.
Dkings: You still sound like you are complaining about him being unconvincing, rather than not convicted. Can you show examples of comments from other players that shows their conviction?
I don't think Rhand actually believes any of his reads. He either forgets what he said about them (Atog) or backs off them WAY too easily (Proph). I want to reiterate again that Rhand was the first player to catch Atog asking Proph (who Atog had voiced a scumread on) to verify his scum read on another player. Then, Taredas pointed out the same thing. Rhand /barned Taredas multiple times, even going so far as to say that Taredas's case was stronger than his was, when they both pointed out the exact same thing!
@dkings: I have been reading him as town because of 75 and 205. I also wrote down that 164 looked townie, but I'm not sure why any more.
75: I like the language he uses here. It's also one of the first notes anyone has against Atogaholic, which reads genuinely to me. His note on ZDS is null, but was something that aligned with what I read too.
That's interesting, I actually see a lot wrong with 75. Rhand chainsaw defends not one, but two players: AI when he addresses zindabad and Hawk when he addresses both me and AE. His point about Atog's reaction to the Gruul guild claim is also a logic failure on every level... the Gruul voting ability was already outed, and if Atog is scum then he already knew what the ability was anyway. This is another example of him chasing town points by saying "oh look, these guys are trying to out info!". He did this exact same thing to Wildfire on D1 of Marvel Madness 2.
Hear me out. I hate Day 1s. There's a lot of players and very little information, which leads to a lack of focus, which leads to a day that can last 1000 posts, which is a pain in the rear to analyze later in the game. I don't know what Obzedat does, but it if has anything to do with Immortal Servitude, what's the usefulness in keeping it around? Maybe someone is controlling its vote, but is that really that helpful? It's just one vote. And why waste a vig shot on it when it could be immune to night actions? And why potentially wait until later in the game when we're down to the wire to waste a lynch on it?
If anyone has a good reason we shouldn't lynch it today, I'm totally open to hearing it. But so far all I've seen is "No that's not good idea- let's do it later or vig it" with no substantiating reasons. At first I thought it could be a hydra, but I don't have any reason to believe that. So convince me I'm wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Obzedat
I don't think this idea is as bad as some of you are making it out to be. I do agree that D1 isn't the ideal lynch to use on it, but we're going to have to deal with this sooner rather than later. If we lynch scum today, it should probably be given serious consideration tomorrow.
Also, @Proph: How do you think AI's play in this game compares to his play on D1 in Celestial?
But see dkings that's my whole beef. If we agree we have to deal with Obzedat eventually, why hinge it upon how today goes? What if we mislynch? We just keep putting it off, and any detrimental effects Obzedat has on the game continue. If it is the case that Immortal Servitude goes away with Obzedat's death (baseless speculation but not out of the realm of possibilities), the sooner the better. Plus getting it out of the way now will give us tomorrow with a presumable NK flip and some potentially useful night action results. Really the only thing I'm hearing as a reason not to lynch Obzedat now is 'we don't know that it will be useful,' but we also don't know that it won't be useful. Sure, I understand that the Orzhov don't want to lynch their guildleader, but it doesn't look like anyone is really aware of what's going with it.
*shrugs* Your posting styled changed immediately after I latched onto you. Suddenly the game was no fun.
You can't even come close to proving that, considering how long it was before I said I was bored.
So then, at what point did you start getting bored?
At the point when I figured out that I wasn't going to move my vote from Atog without some drastic revelation...and then people's activity level seemed to drop off.
Hear me out. I hate Day 1s. There's a lot of players and very little information, which leads to a lack of focus, which leads to a day that can last 1000 posts, which is a pain in the rear to analyze later in the game. I don't know what Obzedat does, but it if has anything to do with Immortal Servitude, what's the usefulness in keeping it around? Maybe someone is controlling its vote, but is that really that helpful? It's just one vote. And why waste a vig shot on it when it could be immune to night actions? And why potentially wait until later in the game when we're down to the wire to waste a lynch on it?
If anyone has a good reason we shouldn't lynch it today, I'm totally open to hearing it. But so far all I've seen is "No that's not good idea- let's do it later or vig it" with no substantiating reasons. At first I thought it could be a hydra, but I don't have any reason to believe that. So convince me I'm wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Obzedat
I don't love Day 1 either, but pushing the Big Red Button just to push it strikes me as a terrible idea.
I'm pretty much down to lynch AI, atog or obzedat.
Reading proph interact with AI is like watching a dentist pull teeth.
Between these two posts...
I posted twice (and one of them was a pirate face so that doesn't even count).
Snurfy posted once (a hit-and-run post).
Scarbo made his case about the Obzedat lynch, which Hawk /barned... why are you barning someone you want to lynch?
The AI wagon made traction.
@dkings: I have been reading him as town because of 75 and 205. I also wrote down that 164 looked townie, but I'm not sure why any more.
75: I like the language he uses here. It's also one of the first notes anyone has against Atogaholic, which reads genuinely to me. His note on ZDS is null, but was something that aligned with what I read too.
That's interesting, I actually see a lot wrong with 75. Rhand chainsaw defends not one, but two players: AI when he addresses zindabad and Hawk when he addresses both me and AE. His point about Atog's reaction to the Gruul guild claim is also a logic failure on every level... the Gruul voting ability was already outed, and if Atog is scum then he already knew what the ability was anyway. This is another example of him chasing town points by saying "oh look, these guys are trying to out info!". He did this exact same thing to Wildfire on D1 of Marvel Madness 2.
I don't see how his response to zindabad is a chainsaw defense. He doesn't attack zindabad so much as ask for clarification. I can see how his response regarding Hawk could qualify as one, but I don't think that's scummy unless Hawk flips scum. I don't understand your piece about his logic on Atog.
But see dkings that's my whole beef. If we agree we have to deal with Obzedat eventually, why hinge it upon how today goes? What if we mislynch? We just keep putting it off, and any detrimental effects Obzedat has on the game continue. If it is the case that Immortal Servitude goes away with Obzedat's death (baseless speculation but not out of the realm of possibilities), the sooner the better. Plus getting it out of the way now will give us tomorrow with a presumable NK flip and some potentially useful night action results. Really the only thing I'm hearing as a reason not to lynch Obzedat now is 'we don't know that it will be useful,' but we also don't know that it won't be useful. Sure, I understand that the Orzhov don't want to lynch their guildleader, but it doesn't look like anyone is really aware of what's going with it.
I totally see your point, but D1 is one of the most important days to look back on for interactions/VCA. We don't get that with an Obzedat lynch.
I am behind lynching Obzedat tomorrow.
Also, another point on Obzedat that has nothing to do with Immortal Servitude... I'm pretty sure one of the Orzhov (Taredas maybe?) alluded to the idea that it's actually a hydra. If this is the case, I would bet it is akin to Romeo in SEMII, meaning that Obzedat is basically an extra Orzhov vote that any member can control at any time. That could potentially give scum a double-voter in the late game if there is one hiding in the Orzhov guild.
I don't like Atog's reaction. Looks like he is testing the waters: he doesn't out at first that he's part of the worrisome guild. Looks like he was hoping he can keep it hidden and that Az was going to out another guild ability.
Here is a recap:
- Post 9: Azrael proposes a guild claim.
- Post 14: Atog supported a guild claim for one guild.
- Post 31: Azrael outs the Gruul ability
- Post 35: Atog reveals he is Gruul
tl;dr - Rhand's attack there was 100% misrepresentation
I want to see Atog amd Rhand dead. I think AI is a counterwagon.
Regarding Atog, I don't feel much need to spell out my reasoning because it would just be repeating things already said. His original interactions with Proph are pretty much slam dunk on their own, and his subsequent OMGUS reaction toward Taredas is just icing. Also, take note of posts 170 and 208. In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI". I've been in enough situations where scum have put one buddy in such a grouping (and done it myself), and note who comes last in both of these. It's possible AI might be a buddy too, but I can also see why Atog would have placed town!AI in that position because he was beginning to receive pressure.
Regarding Rhand, here I'll go into detail because a bunch of people are calling him town and I have no clue why.
- Scarbo already called him out for this, but Rhand is the KING of attacking other players for linking people pre-flip, and it is something he has done repeatedly throughout the day.
As I answered Scarbo already, read the post about linking that I wrote that Proph linked to. Both town and scum link. Not all links are scum-based. Mine aren't.
The link you made in the above quote however, is toxic. You vote Atog on a /barn and link him to me with awful reasoning. If you neutrally look at "In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI".", then there is no reason at all to link Atog to me. Zero. Why me and not AI? Why me and not Proph or Taredas? Your link is nonsense, and meant to chainlynch.
- He has had no conviction in any of his reads. He asserted "Scum 1 found!" when voting Sepiriel, then immediately started telling us Proph was a stronger scum read. He was clinging to the Sepiriel self-vote in RVS for way too long as nothing else gained traction.
I stayed with the Sepi vote because Sepi never posted. And then when he did, his rebuttal looked bad.
This is the same thing I did as scum in Pleasantville to try to appear like I was putting in effort.
Nope. Your play in Pleasantville is not comparable with mine here. I pushed Sepiriel and went into conversation with him. You did no such thing with Rodemy.
Look how quickly Rhand backed off Proph on page 4.
I did not back off Proph on page 4. This is what I wrote on page 4:
And I'm flattered that you took the time to find that quote of mine in the middle of another game. I can't vote you now lol.
I was reconsidering my read on Proph.
If you would really be interested in my real read on Proph at that time, you would've noticed I wasn't convinced yet of him being town when I asked him this on page 5:
@Proph: elaborate on why you think Sepi's answer "has a lot of natural surprise and confusion" and why that makes him town please.
Something I've been wanting to ask you, but I needed Sepi to react first: You do put a lot of stock in RVS tells, right? I know there's only a few of us who do and I seem to remember you're one of them. Why didn't you chime in on Sepi's opening post when she was getting heat for it?
I did indeed notice it, but I wanted to take a different approach to RVS this game in contrast to my previous game, Iji. In Iji I ended RVS very early and the person who I attacked based on RVS was not scum. In addition, I got quite a lot of flak and a wagon built on me early for my aggressive approach. I wanted to not overextend myself this game.
Ew. You're basicly saying that you are consciously avoiding your own meta.
And why would you get that flak if I'm the one being vocal about the RVS thing?
But you're clearly not interested in my read on Proph and are just looking for ammo.
Then, in post 205 he attacks me with incredibly weak language. He starts his post with "A bit of a stretch here, but..." which effectively diminishes the significance of his argument before he even makes it and gives him an out if he's wrong.
It is a bit of a stretch. I just wanted to put that down for in case you flip scum. You hadn't posted enough for a solid read and this alone was not enough to pressure you on.
He made the initial catch on Atog, waited for someone else to bring it to the forefront before voting, just /barned what was actually his own argument, and has tried to focus elsewhere since (me / AI).
Taredas made a case that was bigger than my own catch and confirmed my read. He ALSO gave a very good reason for me to stop voting Sepiriel.
Those two factors combined made me unvote Sepiriel and vote Atog.
The bolded is hilarious. Did you not notice that Atog disappeared? What should I do then, stop posting until he returns?
You also obviously skipped page 9 where I questioned Atog further.
And focus on YOU and AI? £That's just bollocks. I wonder how come I have a scumread on Hawk, Snurfy and ZDS right now if I never interacted with them. (hint: I did. And more than with you / AI)
- Post 158 is full of softballs. The "this is way too nice" swipe at ZDS is nonsense and the null read question toward Azrael and /barn of Hawk is just trying to appear like he's doing something.
The "swipe" at ZDS is not nonsense. Being too nice is a scumtell.
The question toward Azrael was not meant to look into Azrael's mindset but because I was questioning my own Sepiriel read and Azrael is the best player to ask that.
The /barn of Hawk was because Snurfy's statement was bad, I wanted to react to it and then saw Hawk already did so I /barned.
- Even more importantly from that same post is this, which is directed at Atog:
The @Proph : You want me to keep pressure on Proph but you specifically want Proph's input to see if your scumread is correct?
How is this not voteworthy? The emoticon at the end makes me think this is coaching in plain sight, plus note the way that this was cleverly tucked at the end of a long quote wall, with no separation from a couple other points he was making. It's like he was hoping this would be glossed over. Also note that he does end up voting Atog over this, but its very weak and in the post he /barns Taredas. Taredas's argument was the same argument Rhand made in 158!
I only have one vote and I thought it was on scum. Taredas's post confirmed my read on Atog, WAS A LOT MORE THAN JUST MY OWN POINT, and he had a good reason for not lynching Sepiriel.
- Post 169 is typical scum behavior: posting fluff that is under the guise of being helpful. The guild claims and talk of guild claims had peaked LONG before Rhand made this post, so how had this "just dawned" on him?
You act as if I'm low on posts. I'm not active lurking with posts like this as main content, you know?
And yes, something did just dawn on me at that point. I started thinking about Orzhov after Taredas's post and realized we will never see an Orzhov get NK'ed because being the NK makes it obvious they are town, and scum will want to utilize the fact that their alignment doesn't reveal. So that means we lose very important information just by Orzhov claiming their clan. Which I wanted to stop immediately. It's not 'fluff'.
- His assertion that analyzing early wagons is pointless is absolutely absurd. As a matter of fact, town NOT analyzing the early wagons hurt them badly in Iji, as they probably would have actually caught me if they had.
Analyzing early wagons becomes important late game. It is abdolutely pointless early game. You were casting suspicion on a group of people out of the assumption that one of them must be scum. That is toxic linking.
- In post 202, Rhand asked Hawk what his opinion is of Atog and AI... where did AI come from? He had not mentioned him at all before this. Trying to shift attention? This is another point toward AI being a counterwagon.
Hawk was focusing outside of the group's focus and I wanted his input on current events, which were Atog and AI.
- Posts 285 and 312 show that he has an acute awareness of who thinks he is town and who thinks he is scum. This is pretty unusual behavior for someone who hasn't been wagoned (or even voted?) at any point whatsoever.
Lol. Are you kidding me here?
Post 285 is about Atog who I attacked for dropping me out of the blue before. Of course I remembered that.
Post 312 is about Snurfy who /barned a post from Axel that he quoted that started with Axel having a town read on me, with Snurfy saying in the same post where he /barned that that he found me scummy.
- He has buddied both Azrael and Karn pretty hard. This isn't alignment-indicative, but it is worth nothing as it will say a lot about them if I'm right about Rhand.
I used Azrael as soundboard for my Sepi read. That's not buddying. How did I buddy Karn?
A couple other random notes:
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
Cythare as town read? He hardly posted?
You, sir, are OMGUS'ing scum with a bad case.
unvote, vote dKings
I'm going to read everything that happened after this post now.
Dkings:
What exactly do you mean by "conviction"? If there's one reproach I could make to Rhand this game, it's that he's got way too much conviction. I'm pretty sure his negative opinion of you has its roots back in the very very early game, for instance. Did you mean to say he's not "convincing" instead? Because it would be a lot more coherent with the arguments you present.
No, I mean conviction. He hasn't tried to convince anyone of anything. He isn't arguing that anyone is scum, he's just saying it and then lobbing around softballs like post 158 instead of scumhunting. And considering I posted all of about 4 sentences in this game before my post further up the page, any scum read Rhand could have formed on me at this point is on some pretty shaky ground (someone... maybe Azrael?... already called him out for this).
My scum read on him developed from actually reading his posts. Today is the first day since this game started that I've actually had time to really sink into it. His interactions with Atog are shoddy... I mean, seriously, he was the first person to point out Atog's post that Taredas "caught"... and then he /barns Taredas when he votes Atog. What's that whole thing about scum forgetting their reads because they have to make them up as they go along?
God you make me laugh.
Read the bolded sentence carefully. And then read what you are accusing me of: you say I forgot I already caught Atog because I'm making up reads, right?
Now read my vote again:
On obzedat: When obzedat goes to -2, either someone claims what it is or its not a town ability imo. Basically, we treat it like voting for an actual player. The only situation I can think of where that isn't true is if its a clan ability no one knows about that is beneficial to the town. Seems unlikely.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
I wonder how come I have a scumread on Hawk, Snurfy and ZDS right now if I never interacted with them. (hint: I did. And more than with you / AI)
That's interesting... can you show me where, at any point in this game, you have voiced a scum read on Hawk? Because, as a matter of fact, your ENTIRE REASON for casting suspicion at me and AE in the early game was our dislike of Hawk's opening post, with your logic based around "I'm good at reading Hawk".
The "swipe" at ZDS is not nonsense. Being too nice is a scumtell.
No, actually, it isn't... like, at all. For a particular player who is known to be more caustic, perhaps... like a Void in TWD or Generic. But to claim that is a general scum tell is absurd.
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
Cythare as town read? He hardly posted?
You are welcome to stop dumbposting at any time. If you read the damned bolded, you will very clearly see where that town read on Cythare came from.
I will give you some credit on the Proph thing, but the rest of your responses are weak and full of buzzwords like "toxic". And your logic in the swipe at me in 205 was still beyond terrible. I just won a ******* specialty as scum, I'm pretty sure I'm smart enough not to make a post that clears about 10 town players. In fact I'm pretty sure most players are smart enough not to do that.
On obzedat: When obzedat goes to -2, either someone claims what it is or its not a town ability imo. Basically, we treat it like voting for an actual player. The only situation I can think of where that isn't true is if its a clan ability no one knows about that is beneficial to the town. Seems unlikely.
Dkings: You still sound like you are complaining about him being unconvincing, rather than not convicted. Can you show examples of comments from other players that shows their conviction?
I don't think Rhand actually believes any of his reads. He either forgets what he said about them (Atog) or backs off them WAY too easily (Proph). I want to reiterate again that Rhand was the first player to catch Atog asking Proph (who Atog had voiced a scumread on) to verify his scum read on another player. Then, Taredas pointed out the same thing. Rhand /barned Taredas multiple times, even going so far as to say that Taredas's case was stronger than his was, when they both pointed out the exact same thing!
Stop repeating the bolded dkings. They're both false.
Did you actually read Taredas's case completely? He said a lot more than I did. What I saw was just part of it.
@dkings: I have been reading him as town because of 75 and 205. I also wrote down that 164 looked townie, but I'm not sure why any more.
75: I like the language he uses here. It's also one of the first notes anyone has against Atogaholic, which reads genuinely to me. His note on ZDS is null, but was something that aligned with what I read too.
That's interesting, I actually see a lot wrong with 75. Rhand chainsaw defends not one, but two players: AI when he addresses zindabad and Hawk when he addresses both me and AE. His point about Atog's reaction to the Gruul guild claim is also a logic failure on every level... the Gruul voting ability was already outed, and if Atog is scum then he already knew what the ability was anyway. This is another example of him chasing town points by saying "oh look, these guys are trying to out info!". He did this exact same thing to Wildfire on D1 of Marvel Madness 2.
Do you even know what chainsaw defending is? "AI's reaction to it is good. @Zindabad: what do you see there that looks off?" is not chainsaw defending. It is outright disagreeing.
The Gruul guild claim thing: you should read what I say. And your comparison with Wildfire is silly. Wildfire was town in Marvel Madness 2. If you really think this is comparable, then why are you voting Atog?
Actually... why are you voting Atog AT ALL if you just keep jabbing about me?
I wonder how come I have a scumread on Hawk, Snurfy and ZDS right now if I never interacted with them. (hint: I did. And more than with you / AI)
That's interesting... can you show me where, at any point in this game, you have voiced a scum read on Hawk? Because, as a matter of fact, your ENTIRE REASON for casting suspicion at me and AE in the early game was our dislike of Hawk's opening post, with your logic based around "I'm good at reading Hawk".
I am good at reading him. There was nothing wrong with his opening post.
I realized while thinking about the game today in my car that there is stuff wrong with his whole play.
It's not as solid as my other reads, but I am scumreading him right now.
But you're right, I haven't talked about it yet.
The "swipe" at ZDS is not nonsense. Being too nice is a scumtell.
No, actually, it isn't... like, at all. For a particular player who is known to be more caustic, perhaps... like a Void in TWD or Generic. But to claim that is a general scum tell is absurd.
Let's disagree on that one then. I'm sure that being too nice is a scumtell for everyone unless they are always overly nice.
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
Cythare as town read? He hardly posted?
You are welcome to stop dumbposting at any time. If you read the damned bolded, you will very clearly see where that town read on Cythare came from.
Then tell me the town!reason for Cythare saying that. I read your comment as you explaining a null read on Cythare.
I will give you some credit on the Proph thing, but the rest of your responses are weak and full of buzzwords like "toxic". And your logic in the swipe at me in 205 was still beyond terrible. I just won a ******* specialty as scum, I'm pretty sure I'm smart enough not to make a post that clears about 10 town players. In fact I'm pretty sure most players are smart enough not to do that.
That's exactly what scum would say when they made a slip like that: "I'm too smart to do that".
Nice handwave too.
On obzedat: When obzedat goes to -2, either someone claims what it is or its not a town ability imo. Basically, we treat it like voting for an actual player. The only situation I can think of where that isn't true is if its a clan ability no one knows about that is beneficial to the town. Seems unlikely.
Logical enough, though I rather doubt we'll ever get to that point, especially if it is just a hydra/Romeo.
What if we did a mass guild association But not a guild mechanics claim. Reasoning is what if a scum gruul avoids wagons and says he is another guild. Later on he could quick hammer if other gruul are voting.
I don't see why this would be a problem. I still don't want orzhov or simic claiming the guild power unless necessary.
What if we did a mass guild association But not a guild mechanics claim. Reasoning is what if a scum gruul avoids wagons and says he is another guild. Later on he could quick hammer if other gruul are voting.
I don't see why this would be a problem. I still don't want orzhov or simic claiming the guild power unless necessary.
To be clear, I don't understand the delineation here between guild association and mechanics when some of this is already in the thread. Also, given that the mechanic is dialed up from RtR, I don't want to mass claim. I can see the logic of locking the scum in (I guess), but I don't really see how this helps at all when they've been "seamlessly integrated into the other guilds" anyways. There's nothing to catch them on.
Exactly. All claiming our guilds will do is help scum make better decisions about NKs. Anyone who lies about their guild will probably be caught in a mechanical mishap. For that reason I don't see the logic in locking scum into a claim at all.
What if we did a mass guild association But not a guild mechanics claim. Reasoning is what if a scum gruul avoids wagons and says he is another guild. Later on he could quick hammer if other gruul are voting.
I don't see why this would be a problem. I still don't want orzhov or simic claiming the guild power unless necessary.
I just explained why Orzhov should definitely not claim who they are. Are you reading my posts?
Atog:
What, precisely, have you done to make yourself bait, besides trusting that you naturally fit the bill?
For myself, I made it a point to try to play agressively at the start of the game, and be more vocal than I normally am
Quote from Axelrod »
@Atog: (1) Current opinion about Sepiral? You said you were "digging into" him, which seems somewhat questionable, but, if so, what's your position now? How did you get there?
(2) Between Proph and Taredas, you are voting for Taredas, but have made more posts about Proph. Do you have an opinion about which one of them is more likely to be scum? Are you convinced they are scum together?
(3) You quoted my post as one reason Taredas's post was "the scummiest post in the game so far" but also said there were other reasons it was. What reasons?
(4) You have also seemingly barned Azrael is agreeing AI looks scummy. Can you say with a little more specificity what you don't like about him?
1 AFAIR the only thing I said to him was complaining about how long his posts were. I got the sense that he's a town player who's putting defense of himself over scumhunting.
2 The reason I kept my vote on Taredas is because I was the only one doing it and I want to be cautious about my vote b/c of my guild. I probably would have unvoted then pseudovoted if other people were voting him too. I'm not really sure about my scum read on proph anymore, him backing off of my wagon was suprising, I expected him to try to discredit me and push my lynch though instead.
3 I'm wary of people who post predominantly large walls of text and trump them up with filler because I've experienced scum who do that in the past. That combined with the vote on me + defense of proph is why that post led me to read Taredas as scum. Ofc now that he's given me what seems to be valid excuses for the filler and my read on proph is more uncertain I need to rethink him as well.
4 I tried to use Vish's wagon as bait to nail proph but AI waltzed right into it instead. I think he's scum because of his vote on someone I read as town and believe that scum want to target, his "scum sensing blood in the water" word choice, and his outright dismissive attitude afterward.
Quote from Cythare »
In other news, I'm going to switch my vote now - no reason to keep my vote on ZDS when I also think Atog is scum.
Strikes me as unusual that you're calling me Atog, we chat all the time and you always call me Togs.
Quote from AI »
I am also Boros. While it's not 100% the case, it's pretty likely that there is scum in each of the four guilds, so they probably already know what the clan abilities do. This is part of the reason I want a guild claim (which includes a general template/overview of what each guild ability does).
I actually forgot that AI was the one pushing for a massclaim until I saw the pbpa. There's actually 0 guarantee that his statement about scum being in every guild is right, I remember someone mentioned in RTR the scum were only in some of the guilds. If that's true for this game, then the fact that he calls for not only a guild claim but a description of every clan's ability is extra suspect.
Quote from KK »
On Obzedat: When Obzedat goes to -2, either someone claims what it is or its not a town ability imo. Basically, we treat it like voting for an actual player. The only situation I can think of where that isn't true is if its a clan ability no one knows about that is beneficial to the town. Seems unlikely.
I don't think it's a good idea to vote for Obzedat for this reason--we'd basically be making someone claim based on just mechanics. If whoever Obzedat is is scum, I'd rather catch them through scumhunting.
Not sure why people are suggesting lynching/vigging Obzedat? The most plausible mechanics are either a Romeo or some sort of modified double vote, and a Romeo would basically have to be town (*maybe* Mafia Traitor, but it cannot know who the scum are for obvious reasons), and if it's a double vote I would expect that it dies with the player who controls it. Moreover, if it was an actual problem I would expect it to just be unattributed.
Vish is probably town. His "I'm having trouble reconciling" thing is indicative of a town mindset - I think scum would just roll with having scum reads on both AI and Togs, but it's clear that Vish is thinking about his reads.
@Taredas
1. What are your thoughts on the following players:
AsianInvasion
Sir Karn
7hawk77
Archmage Eternal
dkingsland967
Sir Karn - Unsure. On the one hand, his behavior suggests scum (post 323 in particular). On the other hand, I'm not sure he can be scum with AI - I have a hard time seeing AI barning Sir Karn's "Sepiriel has vanished!" snipe the way he did if both were scum. Claimed Orzhov, so I'm not going to worry about him much toDay regardless.
7hawk77 - Leaning scum? I think this is marginally more likely to be scum!Hawk than town!Hawk, but I'm not sure, and I have bigger fish to fry either way.
AE - Leaning town. There's a specific aspect of his posts that tends to come from AE-town rather than AE-scum (I *have* seen a game where AE did it as scum, but that was over four years ago IIRC) - I'd rather not explain what, because I don't think AE knows
dkingsland967 - Likely town. In particular, I don't see him making that Rhand push if he was scum - partially that's tone, partially that's because Rhand's likely town and widely town read and I don't see why dkings would attack there (regardless of Rhand's alignment) unless he genuinely believes Rhand is scum.
AI - Very likely scum. I've had him on backburner since his Vishamon vote... almost entirely because I apparently can't read and thought AI had claimed Orzhov when he actually claimed Boros. (That's actually the *other* reason I'm getting cold feet on the Atog lynch - the way AI has pushed Atog suggests that he is scum who *knows* that Atog is town.) See below for details.
2. Can you give me examples of mafiascum games where people pulled the "I'm baiting reactions!" stint? I can't recall any.
Closest I can find on short notice is TVOD in MafiaScum Random Mafia 3, who didn't use it to defend himself but *did* use it to defend a buddy:
Quote from "thevampireofdusseldorf" »
Oh joy, rapture and delight a cat fight.
I've never played with either of you before so I dont know if this is the way you guys play but I am seriously hoping not.
K7's post in question should be taken at the joke level only, but a scum joke or a town joke......I'm not sure. To try and claim it is a serious scum slip up is rather dull minded, but then again I do not know the intelectual capacity of the fellow players in this game. I have seen very similar statements made by players in the first stages of the game directly implying someone was scum with no obvious indication that it was a joke, and even if it is not a joke why is it a scum slip up. It could be an intentional slip up made by a townie to see who pounces on it.
I guess when your part of a mob it is easy to take on mob mentality and lose intelectual capacity but all I am asking is to think things through a little bit before getting caught up in an unwise assuption.
Posts do not exactly inspire me, though once again I mentioned that he has a defensive playstyle early game and strong analysis late game. I hope he shows some of this analysis earlier though.
1. Are you the type that likes to hold your vote? You've called out a number of players (AI, Sepiriel, Rhand) but you're not actually voting them, which reads to me like you're not taking a stance. Why?
The answer to this question can be derived from information available in the thread. But even that reason notwithstanding, I'll vote when I'm good and ready.
Zindabad, this is the second time you have made a post suggesting you are Gruul without confirming one way or the other. I want you to state *explicitly* whether or not you are Gruul, for reasons I will explain after you've done so.
(Need to address more of this post, but that will have to wait - I'm a bit low on time as it is.)
Does Taredas usually wall post like that, or is he over compensating for not posting for a while?
Also, ZDS had a question or two for me but I'm phone posting and don't remember them.
I kind of would rather vote prophy right now.
I'm not seeing the whole togs thing.
AI isn't striking me awfully. What's the case on him right now?
Sepiriel seems to have disappeared as soon as the wagon on him collapsed. Our digs I miss a post? If I'm not missing anything, then that's REALLY shady behavior and i'd be cool putting my vote right back on him.
unvote
I'll either get a response from you guys or check it myself tomorrow about Sep. Will vote Sep if he just disappeared. Will probably vote porps otherwise?
Anyway, bed time.
A) Why is Sepiriel not being here a problem considering that, you know, Sepiriel explicitly said that he was going to be V/LA until this Friday in his last post?
So here comes a bit of an awkward part:
Im going to be V/LA until Friday 3/13/15, because i really need to take time off to review my study topics for my final oral defense.
B) Why is AI "not striking you awfully"?
C) Why do you want to lynch Proph, especially considering how certain you were that ZDS was scum earlier?
Orzhov and anti-town in behavior, regardless of actual alignment.
And that quote may be all you need to know to read AI this game. Bolding mine.
For the record, I'm not sure about that - townies can and do support vigging players they think are VI town and/or have anti-town playstyles. I should know, I've been part of the "dealing with VIs is the Vig's responsibility" camp for years, dating back to my MafiaScum days (and in fact *because* of MafiaScum - 'Scum has traditionally had fewer strong players and more weak players in its playerbase, so you tended to see all the non-VI players get shot by scum leaving players who were obvious town but poor analysts to make decisions at endgame, and vigging VIs helps counter that tendency) - if a player like ika42 or DGB/Kami of Lunacy was in Sepiriel's situation I'd be making the same argument.
I don't think that's relevant in this particular case - AI is likely scum regardless, given the rest of his play - but it's worth keeping in mind.
(Also, for the record: I was arguing that Sepiriel shouldn't be lynched D1 because he claimed Orzhov *and* that he shouldn't be lynched D1 because I think he's fairly likely town.)
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Az has covered most of why I think AI is scum - the way he's attacked both Vishamon and Atog feels like scum attacking town (the way he's attacked Atog's defense in particular feels like scum trying to keep a mislynch open and his defense feels like scum trying to dismiss the wagon on him/get it to dissipate with "lynch me".
Sepiriel seems to have disappeared as soon as the wagon on him collapsed. Our digs I miss a post? If I'm not missing anything, then that's REALLY shady behavior and i'd be cool putting my vote right back on him.
Good call. Sepiriel is AWOL.
First, same problem I pointed out with Sir Karn - AI is attacking Sepiriel for being absent when Sepiriel *explicitly* noted that he was going to be mostly or completely V/LA for several days.
For reference, TMCT was scum in that game (WitchHunt), and I (an almost universal townread) had just nailed him for his reaction to a proposed autowin. He responded with the potshot above (trying to paint one of my posts as a slip) in order to discredit me and hopefully justify OMGUS/push a lynch on me. I think AI was likely trying something similar here - Az was starting to indicate suspicion of AI, so AI attacked Az to try to discredit him/leave an opening for OMGUS.
The fact that AI quotes ZDS in his post asking for an Atog claim indicates he had caught up on the thread and should have been aware that the pressure on Togs was waning, with Proph removing his vote, and a discussion in place between him and ZDS about the validity of Togs' "I made myself look scummy on purpose" claim.
I would not expect the AI I am familiar with to either miss this bit of info, nor would I expect him to misrepresent it as town. This, in concert with how quick he seemed to jump on board with lynching me after Az made his post about my weak vote on Sepiriel gives me a strong scum vibe.
The pressure on Atog is not waning just because two people are questioning their reads. Are we playing the same game?
Prod Watch
Tog: 2 days
hans: 2 days
KoolKoal: 3 days
KoolKoal will be prodded officially tomorrow morning. Tog and hans are in watch range, and have 24 hours to post before they receive a prod.
Others who have fewer posts than I do... post more. There's a few of you with 5 of fewer posts. Step it up please.
@zindbad: Congrats on the zindababy.
Here's the real killer. AI, for the last few pages, has clearly thought Atog is the scummiest player. He has attacked Atog, dismissed his defense, and pushed for a claim (and implicitly, lynch).
But the thing is? AI has never voted Atog, or offered a reason why he is not voting him. Instead, he's been voting Vishamon the entire time.
I don't see a town motivation for that - I'd expect town to either push Vishamon or move their vote onto Atog. It would make sense if AI was *Gruul* - but he's claimed *Boros*, and even if he was Gruul I'd expect a townie to note why he wasn't voting. Moreover, I'd expect some sort of marker to note "I would be voting you now if not for X" (usually a HoS or FoS), especially since AI *has* FoSed while his vote was on Vishamon... but that FoS was on hawk, not Atog.
There's a really obvious scum motivation for pushing the Atog wagon without voting him, though! If AI *knows* that Atog will flip town, attacking Atog without voting him lets AI to push the wagon along without actually committing his vote (to avoid vote count analysis or being asked to account for his vote later).
Hear me out. I hate Day 1s. There's a lot of players and very little information, which leads to a lack of focus, which leads to a day that can last 1000 posts, which is a pain in the rear to analyze later in the game. I don't know what Obzedat does, but it if has anything to do with Immortal Servitude, what's the usefulness in keeping it around? Maybe someone is controlling its vote, but is that really that helpful? It's just one vote. And why waste a vig shot on it when it could be immune to night actions? And why potentially wait until later in the game when we're down to the wire to waste a lynch on it?
If anyone has a good reason we shouldn't lynch it today, I'm totally open to hearing it. But so far all I've seen is "No that's not good idea- let's do it later or vig it" with no substantiating reasons. At first I thought it could be a hydra, but I don't have any reason to believe that. So convince me I'm wrong.
I'm pretty sure that people have already responded to this post, but Day 1 is the most important Day in the game for interactions to happen. Lynching Obzedat Day 1 is akin to a no-lynch and shouldn't be done.
Quote from hawk »
Reading proph interact with AI is like watching a dentist pull teeth.
How?
Quote from KoolKoal »
On obzedat: When obzedat goes to -2, either someone claims what it is or its not a town ability imo. Basically, we treat it like voting for an actual player. The only situation I can think of where that isn't true is if its a clan ability no one knows about that is beneficial to the town. Seems unlikely.
Can you please contribute something useful?
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On Rhand vs dkings: It might just be burn from Iji, but I'm going to take Rhand's side here. Rhand is showing signs of clear frustration when he's dealing with dkings:
Quote from Rhand »
The bolded is hilarious. Did you not notice that Atog disappeared? What should I do then, stop posting until he returns?
Quote from Rhand »
Lol. Are you kidding me here?
Quote from Rhand »
I only have one vote and I thought it was on scum. Taredas's post confirmed my read on Atog, WAS A LOT MORE THAN JUST MY OWN POINT, and he had a good reason for not lynching Sepiriel.
To compare, look at dkings's posts right now and look at his posts from Wu-Tang, where he completely flips out when he accuses Rhand of being scum:
I just spent more than an hour rereading D1 of MM2 because I couldn't remember you trying to get me lynched there.
And you indeed didn't. You did a few posts about me, but never tried to convince town that I was scum. You even dropped me from your scumreads very quickly. Why are you making this up?
WHISKY TANGO FOXTROT
I was all over you on in MM2. I let up on you D1 because I was dead set on lynching Asenion and you cited illness as your reason for lack of activity and focus.
Want proof? Here is my notes QT for that game. Reference posts 15 and 16.
I cased you multiple times on D2 and spent the majority of D2 and ALL of D3 trying to get you lynched. You even told Generic in the scumchat on N2 that you didn't want me dead because it would make you look bad.
Quote from dkings »
You are not in your town meta, period.
Town!Rhand is assertive and cocky, and goes for the throat. You have been floating along in the wings in this game, just as you were in MM2. I nailed you on D1 there and no one listened, and I'm not letting it slide this time.
This is all fairly genuine conviction and it's just not something I'm seeing from dkings in this game - his pressure on Rhand this game feels more.. calculated?
-----
@Togs:
Quote from Togs »
3 I'm wary of people who post predominantly large walls of text and trump them up with filler because I've experienced scum who do that in the past
Can you give examples of this? Can't recall any scum in CF Mafia 2 who posted predominantly large amounts of text and IIRC that was the only major game you played as town.
I agree with Taredas's post about AI not moving his vote (did not notice that, was super weird).
@Taredas: Please explain how me questioning Az's inconsistency with voting is remotely similar to whatever you're trying to compare me to in a game I've never even read. Take into consideration that I have no idea what Az's alignment is because, as zindabad stated, he always plays the role of master manipulator and we have no bodies with which to analyze his intentions.
Yes he is semantically correct the only thing he has addressed to me specifically was his initial statement of
@Sepiriel the ratio of value I get out of your posts / time I spend reading them is too low. Work on that.
However that is not the only mention he has of me, he is basically mentioning me when responding to rhand:
Don't like this statement. What, you don't think I'll find scum if I dig into Sep?
At this point he is making the claim he is hoping to 'dig into me' this is post #170, i had already replied on #160 thats my V/LA post actually, and my return post was #370.
But thats it there is no further interactions until we get back to #406.
Whats interesting is that if we go by the language in 406 he is basically saying im town he just doesnt like my posting style, however when it was brought about the language used seems to imply he is either unsure of my alignment or considers me suspicious hence why he used 'dig in'
There is a bit of a disconect here... the language doesnt make sense when we also consider he never engaged me further afterwards he didnt really engage my 160 post nor did he engage after my 370 post.
Why i bring this up? because up until this point i have not significantly changed anything in my posting style, i am basically still addressing only the people i originally engaged, yes im apparently analysing some more but considering im using a lot of fickle language like "I need to reread but in the meantime..." (yes im parphrasing myself) I can't see how it would change Atog's original complaint regarding my level of content, even more when apparenly my content quality was "dig in" worthy.
Yeah that's all, i found it odd and maybe its worth something, just posting this now so i dont forget about it later on. sorry for the lack of linking the curse system makes it a hell to do.
--------------------
@Proph: I find i can excuse Karn's suspicion more because he is making it clear in the post he is about to hit the bed, whereas AI is simply barning and we have to assume he did so with enough time or no real problem with making a simple double check.
Btw can i get your thoughts on my comment regarding Zinda? (actually anyone else is free to comment i just get the feeling im being ignored and i want some attention).
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Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
1) Basically I'm under the impression you don't really care what happens to you, whether it's because either way works for you or because you lost interest.
2) Why are you that certain Atog is scum? And I didn't notice an activity drop (unless you mean the fact we can now post without getting ninja'd multiple times, but that's just the early game excitement calming down. Nothing special about it).
1) More or less. As you said, getting mislynched is fine if it provides useful information.
2) The "this was all a ruse to get you to vote me" post was what convinced me. I suppose actual activity may be at a normal level, and I am simply not seeing the traction I want on the wagons I'm interested in pursuing.
Then the Atog situation happened, and AI suddenly became extremely overzealous, perhaps irrationally so at times. This level of absolute certainty in Atog's scumness and willingness to ignore (or, just recently, outright brush away) doubt makes me think we might be seeing hot scum on scum bussing action; his recent comment where he taunts Vish to lynch either of them (ie Ai or Atog) comforts me a little in this thought (whichever of the two gets lynched, it will clear the other; or at least that's the idea).
This is exactly what I was looking for from you in my post #319.
AI's eagerness to direct the vig strikes me as laziness. By declaring he wants some players vigged, he's essentially saying he doesn't want to deal with these players during the Day.
Which is null (I've seen both sides get this kind of lazy) or, if you are correct about him not enjoying being scum, a small scum tell.
I'll have to make sure I'm not thinking of another Clan Flamingo player, but IIRC AI does not enjoy playing scum.
AI's eagerness to direct the vig strikes me as laziness. By declaring he wants some players vigged, he's essentially saying he doesn't want to deal with these players during the Day.
Which is null (I've seen both sides get this kind of lazy) or, if you are correct about him not enjoying being scum, a small scum tell.
I'll have to make sure I'm not thinking of another Clan Flamingo player, but IIRC AI does not enjoy playing scum.
By all means, continue to make generalizations rather than analyze behavior. Or do anything relevant.
So, I spent most of my day in the emergency room. It doesn't appear serious, but I don't feel so great right now. I see Atog has responded, but I don't know what I think about it yet.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
So, I spent most of my day in the emergency room. It doesn't appear serious, but I don't feel so great right now. I see Atog has responded, but I don't know what I think about it yet.
I'm still trying to figure out why people think AI is scum over Atog.
I think they're likely both scum, but Togs could just be noobing it up.
AI, on the other hand, had a discernible change in tone bordering on flailing the moment az called him on voting Vish. Since then he started bloodthirstily pushing the only other wagon with promise at the time, only to tone it way down when called on it (but thoroughly denying it was what it looked like).
AI before you told me you don't have a reason to know Vish isn't great at mafia, but I seem to recall you being present in watching Vish get lynched D1 a couple of Clan Contest Mafias ago. Am I wrong?
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
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Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I don't think Rhand actually believes any of his reads. He either forgets what he said about them (Atog) or backs off them WAY too easily (Proph). I want to reiterate again that Rhand was the first player to catch Atog asking Proph (who Atog had voiced a scumread on) to verify his scum read on another player. Then, Taredas pointed out the same thing. Rhand /barned Taredas multiple times, even going so far as to say that Taredas's case was stronger than his was, when they both pointed out the exact same thing!
That's interesting, I actually see a lot wrong with 75. Rhand chainsaw defends not one, but two players: AI when he addresses zindabad and Hawk when he addresses both me and AE. His point about Atog's reaction to the Gruul guild claim is also a logic failure on every level... the Gruul voting ability was already outed, and if Atog is scum then he already knew what the ability was anyway. This is another example of him chasing town points by saying "oh look, these guys are trying to out info!". He did this exact same thing to Wildfire on D1 of Marvel Madness 2.
I don't think this idea is as bad as some of you are making it out to be. I do agree that D1 isn't the ideal lynch to use on it, but we're going to have to deal with this sooner rather than later. If we lynch scum today, it should probably be given serious consideration tomorrow.
Also, @Proph: How do you think AI's play in this game compares to his play on D1 in Celestial?
The ratio of noise to content is astronomical, and everything changes after we get the first flip, anyway.
I...guess? I would ask you to explain how, but I'm pretty sure it would veer the discussion off into OoG territory, which is better had post-game.
At the point when I figured out that I wasn't going to move my vote from Atog without some drastic revelation...and then people's activity level seemed to drop off.
Sure.
I don't love Day 1 either, but pushing the Big Red Button just to push it strikes me as a terrible idea.
Between these two posts...
I posted twice (and one of them was a pirate face so that doesn't even count).
Snurfy posted once (a hit-and-run post).
Scarbo made his case about the Obzedat lynch, which Hawk /barned... why are you barning someone you want to lynch?
The AI wagon made traction.
To echo Cythare: Ew.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I totally see your point, but D1 is one of the most important days to look back on for interactions/VCA. We don't get that with an Obzedat lynch.
I am behind lynching Obzedat tomorrow.
Also, another point on Obzedat that has nothing to do with Immortal Servitude... I'm pretty sure one of the Orzhov (Taredas maybe?) alluded to the idea that it's actually a hydra. If this is the case, I would bet it is akin to Romeo in SEMII, meaning that Obzedat is basically an extra Orzhov vote that any member can control at any time. That could potentially give scum a double-voter in the late game if there is one hiding in the Orzhov guild.
Here is a recap:
- Post 9: Azrael proposes a guild claim.
- Post 14: Atog supported a guild claim for one guild.
- Post 31: Azrael outs the Gruul ability
- Post 35: Atog reveals he is Gruul
tl;dr - Rhand's attack there was 100% misrepresentation
As I answered Scarbo already, read the post about linking that I wrote that Proph linked to. Both town and scum link. Not all links are scum-based. Mine aren't.
The link you made in the above quote however, is toxic. You vote Atog on a /barn and link him to me with awful reasoning. If you neutrally look at "In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI".", then there is no reason at all to link Atog to me. Zero. Why me and not AI? Why me and not Proph or Taredas? Your link is nonsense, and meant to chainlynch.
I stayed with the Sepi vote because Sepi never posted. And then when he did, his rebuttal looked bad.
Nope. Your play in Pleasantville is not comparable with mine here. I pushed Sepiriel and went into conversation with him. You did no such thing with Rodemy.
I did not back off Proph on page 4. This is what I wrote on page 4:
I was reconsidering my read on Proph.
If you would really be interested in my real read on Proph at that time, you would've noticed I wasn't convinced yet of him being town when I asked him this on page 5:
And this on page 7:
But you're clearly not interested in my read on Proph and are just looking for ammo.
It is a bit of a stretch. I just wanted to put that down for in case you flip scum. You hadn't posted enough for a solid read and this alone was not enough to pressure you on.
Taredas made a case that was bigger than my own catch and confirmed my read. He ALSO gave a very good reason for me to stop voting Sepiriel.
Those two factors combined made me unvote Sepiriel and vote Atog.
The bolded is hilarious. Did you not notice that Atog disappeared? What should I do then, stop posting until he returns?
You also obviously skipped page 9 where I questioned Atog further.
And focus on YOU and AI? £That's just bollocks. I wonder how come I have a scumread on Hawk, Snurfy and ZDS right now if I never interacted with them. (hint: I did. And more than with you / AI)
The "swipe" at ZDS is not nonsense. Being too nice is a scumtell.
The question toward Azrael was not meant to look into Azrael's mindset but because I was questioning my own Sepiriel read and Azrael is the best player to ask that.
The /barn of Hawk was because Snurfy's statement was bad, I wanted to react to it and then saw Hawk already did so I /barned.
I only have one vote and I thought it was on scum. Taredas's post confirmed my read on Atog, WAS A LOT MORE THAN JUST MY OWN POINT, and he had a good reason for not lynching Sepiriel.
You act as if I'm low on posts. I'm not active lurking with posts like this as main content, you know?
And yes, something did just dawn on me at that point. I started thinking about Orzhov after Taredas's post and realized we will never see an Orzhov get NK'ed because being the NK makes it obvious they are town, and scum will want to utilize the fact that their alignment doesn't reveal. So that means we lose very important information just by Orzhov claiming their clan. Which I wanted to stop immediately. It's not 'fluff'.
Analyzing early wagons becomes important late game. It is abdolutely pointless early game. You were casting suspicion on a group of people out of the assumption that one of them must be scum. That is toxic linking.
Hawk was focusing outside of the group's focus and I wanted his input on current events, which were Atog and AI.
Lol. Are you kidding me here?
Post 285 is about Atog who I attacked for dropping me out of the blue before. Of course I remembered that.
Post 312 is about Snurfy who /barned a post from Axel that he quoted that started with Axel having a town read on me, with Snurfy saying in the same post where he /barned that that he found me scummy.
I used Azrael as soundboard for my Sepi read. That's not buddying. How did I buddy Karn?
Cythare as town read? He hardly posted?
You, sir, are OMGUS'ing scum with a bad case.
unvote, vote dKings
I'm going to read everything that happened after this post now.
God you make me laugh.
Read the bolded sentence carefully. And then read what you are accusing me of: you say I forgot I already caught Atog because I'm making up reads, right?
Now read my vote again:
Now tell me again your scumread comes from 'actually reading my posts' and that I am the one making things up as I go along.
That's interesting... can you show me where, at any point in this game, you have voiced a scum read on Hawk? Because, as a matter of fact, your ENTIRE REASON for casting suspicion at me and AE in the early game was our dislike of Hawk's opening post, with your logic based around "I'm good at reading Hawk".
No, actually, it isn't... like, at all. For a particular player who is known to be more caustic, perhaps... like a Void in TWD or Generic. But to claim that is a general scum tell is absurd.
You are welcome to stop dumbposting at any time. If you read the damned bolded, you will very clearly see where that town read on Cythare came from.
I will give you some credit on the Proph thing, but the rest of your responses are weak and full of buzzwords like "toxic". And your logic in the swipe at me in 205 was still beyond terrible. I just won a ******* specialty as scum, I'm pretty sure I'm smart enough not to make a post that clears about 10 town players. In fact I'm pretty sure most players are smart enough not to do that.
I dig it.
Stop repeating the bolded dkings. They're both false.
Did you actually read Taredas's case completely? He said a lot more than I did. What I saw was just part of it.
Do you even know what chainsaw defending is? "AI's reaction to it is good. @Zindabad: what do you see there that looks off?" is not chainsaw defending. It is outright disagreeing.
The Gruul guild claim thing: you should read what I say. And your comparison with Wildfire is silly. Wildfire was town in Marvel Madness 2. If you really think this is comparable, then why are you voting Atog?
Actually... why are you voting Atog AT ALL if you just keep jabbing about me?
I am good at reading him. There was nothing wrong with his opening post.
I realized while thinking about the game today in my car that there is stuff wrong with his whole play.
It's not as solid as my other reads, but I am scumreading him right now.
But you're right, I haven't talked about it yet.
Let's disagree on that one then. I'm sure that being too nice is a scumtell for everyone unless they are always overly nice.
Then tell me the town!reason for Cythare saying that. I read your comment as you explaining a null read on Cythare.
That's exactly what scum would say when they made a slip like that: "I'm too smart to do that".
Nice handwave too.
Die please.
I'll try to stay up-to-date during the VL/A.
Logical enough, though I rather doubt we'll ever get to that point, especially if it is just a hydra/Romeo.
While I agree that it's unlikely, why the absolute certainty?
I don't see why this would be a problem. I still don't want orzhov or simic claiming the guild power unless necessary.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I just explained why Orzhov should definitely not claim who they are. Are you reading my posts?
1 AFAIR the only thing I said to him was complaining about how long his posts were. I got the sense that he's a town player who's putting defense of himself over scumhunting.
2 The reason I kept my vote on Taredas is because I was the only one doing it and I want to be cautious about my vote b/c of my guild. I probably would have unvoted then pseudovoted if other people were voting him too. I'm not really sure about my scum read on proph anymore, him backing off of my wagon was suprising, I expected him to try to discredit me and push my lynch though instead.
3 I'm wary of people who post predominantly large walls of text and trump them up with filler because I've experienced scum who do that in the past. That combined with the vote on me + defense of proph is why that post led me to read Taredas as scum. Ofc now that he's given me what seems to be valid excuses for the filler and my read on proph is more uncertain I need to rethink him as well.
4 I tried to use Vish's wagon as bait to nail proph but AI waltzed right into it instead. I think he's scum because of his vote on someone I read as town and believe that scum want to target, his "scum sensing blood in the water" word choice, and his outright dismissive attitude afterward.
Strikes me as unusual that you're calling me Atog, we chat all the time and you always call me Togs.
I actually forgot that AI was the one pushing for a massclaim until I saw the pbpa. There's actually 0 guarantee that his statement about scum being in every guild is right, I remember someone mentioned in RTR the scum were only in some of the guilds. If that's true for this game, then the fact that he calls for not only a guild claim but a description of every clan's ability is extra suspect.
I don't think it's a good idea to vote for Obzedat for this reason--we'd basically be making someone claim based on just mechanics. If whoever Obzedat is is scum, I'd rather catch them through scumhunting.
unvote
pseudovote AI
I know who I want lynched toDay
Unvote
Vote: Atogaholic
Seriously. Can we lynch this guy already?
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Sir Karn - Unsure. On the one hand, his behavior suggests scum (post 323 in particular). On the other hand, I'm not sure he can be scum with AI - I have a hard time seeing AI barning Sir Karn's "Sepiriel has vanished!" snipe the way he did if both were scum. Claimed Orzhov, so I'm not going to worry about him much toDay regardless.
7hawk77 - Leaning scum? I think this is marginally more likely to be scum!Hawk than town!Hawk, but I'm not sure, and I have bigger fish to fry either way.
AE - Leaning town. There's a specific aspect of his posts that tends to come from AE-town rather than AE-scum (I *have* seen a game where AE did it as scum, but that was over four years ago IIRC) - I'd rather not explain what, because I don't think AE knows
dkingsland967 - Likely town. In particular, I don't see him making that Rhand push if he was scum - partially that's tone, partially that's because Rhand's likely town and widely town read and I don't see why dkings would attack there (regardless of Rhand's alignment) unless he genuinely believes Rhand is scum.
AI - Very likely scum. I've had him on backburner since his Vishamon vote... almost entirely because I apparently can't read and thought AI had claimed Orzhov when he actually claimed Boros. (That's actually the *other* reason I'm getting cold feet on the Atog lynch - the way AI has pushed Atog suggests that he is scum who *knows* that Atog is town.) See below for details.
Closest I can find on short notice is TVOD in MafiaScum Random Mafia 3, who didn't use it to defend himself but *did* use it to defend a buddy:
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Zindabad, this is the second time you have made a post suggesting you are Gruul without confirming one way or the other. I want you to state *explicitly* whether or not you are Gruul, for reasons I will explain after you've done so.
(Need to address more of this post, but that will have to wait - I'm a bit low on time as it is.)
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A) Why is Sepiriel not being here a problem considering that, you know, Sepiriel explicitly said that he was going to be V/LA until this Friday in his last post?
B) Why is AI "not striking you awfully"?
C) Why do you want to lynch Proph, especially considering how certain you were that ZDS was scum earlier?
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For the record, I'm not sure about that - townies can and do support vigging players they think are VI town and/or have anti-town playstyles. I should know, I've been part of the "dealing with VIs is the Vig's responsibility" camp for years, dating back to my MafiaScum days (and in fact *because* of MafiaScum - 'Scum has traditionally had fewer strong players and more weak players in its playerbase, so you tended to see all the non-VI players get shot by scum leaving players who were obvious town but poor analysts to make decisions at endgame, and vigging VIs helps counter that tendency) - if a player like ika42 or DGB/Kami of Lunacy was in Sepiriel's situation I'd be making the same argument.
I don't think that's relevant in this particular case - AI is likely scum regardless, given the rest of his play - but it's worth keeping in mind.
(Also, for the record: I was arguing that Sepiriel shouldn't be lynched D1 because he claimed Orzhov *and* that he shouldn't be lynched D1 because I think he's fairly likely town.)
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Az has covered most of why I think AI is scum - the way he's attacked both Vishamon and Atog feels like scum attacking town (the way he's attacked Atog's defense in particular feels like scum trying to keep a mislynch open and his defense feels like scum trying to dismiss the wagon on him/get it to dissipate with "lynch me".
First, same problem I pointed out with Sir Karn - AI is attacking Sepiriel for being absent when Sepiriel *explicitly* noted that he was going to be mostly or completely V/LA for several days.
Why does this look familiar? Oh right:
For reference, TMCT was scum in that game (WitchHunt), and I (an almost universal townread) had just nailed him for his reaction to a proposed autowin. He responded with the potshot above (trying to paint one of my posts as a slip) in order to discredit me and hopefully justify OMGUS/push a lynch on me. I think AI was likely trying something similar here - Az was starting to indicate suspicion of AI, so AI attacked Az to try to discredit him/leave an opening for OMGUS.
Here's the real killer. AI, for the last few pages, has clearly thought Atog is the scummiest player. He has attacked Atog, dismissed his defense, and pushed for a claim (and implicitly, lynch).
But the thing is? AI has never voted Atog, or offered a reason why he is not voting him. Instead, he's been voting Vishamon the entire time.
I don't see a town motivation for that - I'd expect town to either push Vishamon or move their vote onto Atog. It would make sense if AI was *Gruul* - but he's claimed *Boros*, and even if he was Gruul I'd expect a townie to note why he wasn't voting. Moreover, I'd expect some sort of marker to note "I would be voting you now if not for X" (usually a HoS or FoS), especially since AI *has* FoSed while his vote was on Vishamon... but that FoS was on hawk, not Atog.
There's a really obvious scum motivation for pushing the Atog wagon without voting him, though! If AI *knows* that Atog will flip town, attacking Atog without voting him lets AI to push the wagon along without actually committing his vote (to avoid vote count analysis or being asked to account for his vote later).
Unvote, Vote: AsianInvasion
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
I'm pretty sure that people have already responded to this post, but Day 1 is the most important Day in the game for interactions to happen. Lynching Obzedat Day 1 is akin to a no-lynch and shouldn't be done.
How?
Can you please contribute something useful?
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On Rhand vs dkings: It might just be burn from Iji, but I'm going to take Rhand's side here. Rhand is showing signs of clear frustration when he's dealing with dkings:
To compare, look at dkings's posts right now and look at his posts from Wu-Tang, where he completely flips out when he accuses Rhand of being scum:
This is all fairly genuine conviction and it's just not something I'm seeing from dkings in this game - his pressure on Rhand this game feels more.. calculated?
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@Togs:
Can you give examples of this? Can't recall any scum in CF Mafia 2 who posted predominantly large amounts of text and IIRC that was the only major game you played as town.
I agree with Taredas's post about AI not moving his vote (did not notice that, was super weird).
The vote is completely irrelevant to actual pressure, as you can see by the pathetic way Atog has flopped onto my wagon.
@Taredas: Please explain how me questioning Az's inconsistency with voting is remotely similar to whatever you're trying to compare me to in a game I've never even read. Take into consideration that I have no idea what Az's alignment is because, as zindabad stated, he always plays the role of master manipulator and we have no bodies with which to analyze his intentions.
Yes he is semantically correct the only thing he has addressed to me specifically was his initial statement of
However that is not the only mention he has of me, he is basically mentioning me when responding to rhand:
At this point he is making the claim he is hoping to 'dig into me' this is post #170, i had already replied on #160 thats my V/LA post actually, and my return post was #370.
But thats it there is no further interactions until we get back to #406.
Whats interesting is that if we go by the language in 406 he is basically saying im town he just doesnt like my posting style, however when it was brought about the language used seems to imply he is either unsure of my alignment or considers me suspicious hence why he used 'dig in'
There is a bit of a disconect here... the language doesnt make sense when we also consider he never engaged me further afterwards he didnt really engage my 160 post nor did he engage after my 370 post.
Why i bring this up? because up until this point i have not significantly changed anything in my posting style, i am basically still addressing only the people i originally engaged, yes im apparently analysing some more but considering im using a lot of fickle language like "I need to reread but in the meantime..." (yes im parphrasing myself) I can't see how it would change Atog's original complaint regarding my level of content, even more when apparenly my content quality was "dig in" worthy.
Yeah that's all, i found it odd and maybe its worth something, just posting this now so i dont forget about it later on. sorry for the lack of linking the curse system makes it a hell to do.
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@Proph: I find i can excuse Karn's suspicion more because he is making it clear in the post he is about to hit the bed, whereas AI is simply barning and we have to assume he did so with enough time or no real problem with making a simple double check.
Btw can i get your thoughts on my comment regarding Zinda? (actually anyone else is free to comment i just get the feeling im being ignored and i want some attention).
1) More or less. As you said, getting mislynched is fine if it provides useful information.
2) The "this was all a ruse to get you to vote me" post was what convinced me. I suppose actual activity may be at a normal level, and I am simply not seeing the traction I want on the wagons I'm interested in pursuing.
The vote. Doesn't matter. I could move it now, but then people would raise a fuss about that. Lose/lose.
Here, I'll compromise by unvoting Vish.
Unvote
Vote count and more prod checks to come probably tomorrow. I'll be out all day today.
By all means, continue to make generalizations rather than analyze behavior. Or do anything relevant.
I know it's the weekend, but c'mon, people.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
Take care and get well!
*sigh*
Anything to (potentially) move the gamestate along at this point.
Vote Atogaholic
AI, on the other hand, had a discernible change in tone bordering on flailing the moment az called him on voting Vish. Since then he started bloodthirstily pushing the only other wagon with promise at the time, only to tone it way down when called on it (but thoroughly denying it was what it looked like).
AI before you told me you don't have a reason to know Vish isn't great at mafia, but I seem to recall you being present in watching Vish get lynched D1 a couple of Clan Contest Mafias ago. Am I wrong?