Does Taredas usually wall post like that, or is he over compensating for not posting for a while?
Also, ZDS had a question or two for me but I'm phone posting and don't remember them.
I kind of would rather vote prophy right now.
I'm not seeing the whole togs thing.
AI isn't striking me awfully. What's the case on him right now?
Sepiriel seems to have disappeared as soon as the wagon on him collapsed. Our digs I miss a post? If I'm not missing anything, then that's REALLY shady behavior and i'd be cool putting my vote right back on him.
unvote
I'll either get a response from you guys or check it myself tomorrow about Sep. Will vote Sep if he just disappeared. Will probably vote porps otherwise?
Vish is probably town. His "I'm having trouble reconciling" thing is indicative of a town mindset - I think scum would just roll with having scum reads on both AI and Togs, but it's clear that Vish is thinking about his reads.
@Taredas
1. What are your thoughts on the following players:
AsianInvasion
Sir Karn
7hawk77
Archmage Eternal
dkingsland967
2. Can you give me examples of mafiascum games where people pulled the "I'm baiting reactions!" stint? I can't recall any.
The fact that AI quotes ZDS in his post asking for an Atog claim indicates he had caught up on the thread and should have been aware that the pressure on Togs was waning, with Proph removing his vote, and a discussion in place between him and ZDS about the validity of Togs' "I made myself look scummy on purpose" claim.
I would not expect the AI I am familiar with to either miss this bit of info, nor would I expect him to misrepresent it as town. This, in concert with how quick he seemed to jump on board with lynching me after Az made his post about my weak vote on Sepiriel gives me a strong scum vibe.
The pressure on Atog is not waning just because two people are questioning their reads. Are we playing the same game?
With all that being said, there is a situation where scum (including and perhaps especially newb scum) will pretend they are pulling the lynch bait tactic: when they realise they ****ed up, and they don't believe they can save themselves by actually debating with their accusers. Note that, in this case, the scum player never actually tried or wanted to become lynch bait.
The bolded is the impression I'm getting from his baiting talk. It doesn't look like baiting.
This /barn
The problem is I am having trouble reconciling my scum read on Togs with the scum vibes I'm getting from AI.
Sepiriel seems to have disappeared as soon as the wagon on him collapsed. Our digs I miss a post? If I'm not missing anything, then that's REALLY shady behavior and i'd be cool putting my vote right back on him.
Vish is probably town. His "I'm having trouble reconciling" thing is indicative of a town mindset - I think scum would just roll with having scum reads on both AI and Togs, but it's clear that Vish is thinking about his reads.
It's a weak town tell at best. Scum fake indecisiveness all the time.
I have something now I didn't have when last I played this game: a four-month-old. So time budgeting has become a little awkward. Still, I'm in this one. Content incoming within 24 hours.
Atog-
3. If you've never had a scum read on Vish this game (253), what made you think his wagon looked 'promising' (157)?
3. heh, I deliberately left the wording ambiguous to try and use him as bait. I said his wagon 'looked promising,' meaning I saw the potential to catch scum hopping onto it. (Which I did) Notice I also said he was misinterpreting a quote, which is a mistake town can make as well as scum
heh, I don't buy that for a second.
OK with an Atog lynch.
Karn (and anyone else), look at this and tell me why you're not 'seeing the whole togs thing.' Then tell me why I'm wrong.
The fact that AI quotes ZDS in his post asking for an Atog claim indicates he had caught up on the thread and should have been aware that the pressure on Togs was waning, with Proph removing his vote, and a discussion in place between him and ZDS about the validity of Togs' "I made myself look scummy on purpose" claim.
I would not expect the AI I am familiar with to either miss this bit of info, nor would I expect him to misrepresent it as town. This, in concert with how quick he seemed to jump on board with lynching me after Az made his post about my weak vote on Sepiriel gives me a strong scum vibe.
The pressure on Atog is not waning just because two people are questioning their reads. Are we playing the same game?
With all that being said, there is a situation where scum (including and perhaps especially newb scum) will pretend they are pulling the lynch bait tactic: when they realise they ****ed up, and they don't believe they can save themselves by actually debating with their accusers. Note that, in this case, the scum player never actually tried or wanted to become lynch bait.
The bolded is the impression I'm getting from his baiting talk. It doesn't look like baiting.
This /barn
The problem is I am having trouble reconciling my scum read on Togs with the scum vibes I'm getting from AI.
Lynch one of us and find out.
I always find it strange to see posts challenging people to lynch themselves.
I'm getting bored and want to lynch someone I'm pretty sure is scum.
This in response to the question "why so eager to get a claim from Atog."
Now, the proper response to this question - says another person who has stated they are ready to hear Atog claim - is that you're ready to move the game along. I have no interest in 1000+ post day ones. I'd much rather get the claim now, and go ahead and decide. A claim is kind of the next step, and then, generally, you lynch that person or move on. AI is asking for a claim, but here indicating his strong desire for a lynch, which is jumping over the rather important "claim" step. And the reason "because I'm bored" is just bad, whether you're "pretty sure" someone is scum or not (which you probably shouldn't be at this point, not given what Atog has posted so far.)
Quote from AI »
Lynch one of us and find out.
This rings of false bravado. I don't see what you get from making a post like this if you're town. It reads almost like you're saying you're ready to trade 1-1 with Atog (because you're just that sure of his scumminess?) As though lynching you and you flipping Town would prove anything about Atog. Either that or you're just being a bit smarmy.
Unvote
Still waiting for Atog to come back and say something else.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also I think it sends the wrong message that people are in voting atog when responses are necessary. It's showing that not participating is a valid defense.
As someone who came out of hiatus specifically to play in this game, I think I have to right to decide when and under what circumstances I am bored (which is not a slight against Meg in any way). Lurkers gonna lurk.
I want to see Atog amd Rhand dead. I think AI is a counterwagon.
Regarding Atog, I don't feel much need to spell out my reasoning because it would just be repeating things already said. His original interactions with Proph are pretty much slam dunk on their own, and his subsequent OMGUS reaction toward Taredas is just icing. Also, take note of posts 170 and 208. In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI". I've been in enough situations where scum have put one buddy in such a grouping (and done it myself), and note who comes last in both of these. It's possible AI might be a buddy too, but I can also see why Atog would have placed town!AI in that position because he was beginning to receive pressure.
Regarding Rhand, here I'll go into detail because a bunch of people are calling him town and I have no clue why.
- Scarbo already called him out for this, but Rhand is the KING of attacking other players for linking people pre-flip, and it is something he has done repeatedly throughout the day.
- He has had no conviction in any of his reads. He asserted "Scum 1 found!" when voting Sepiriel, then immediately started telling us Proph was a stronger scum read. He was clinging to the Sepiriel self-vote in RVS for way too long as nothing else gained traction. This is the same thing I did as scum in Pleasantville to try to appear like I was putting in effort. Look how quickly Rhand backed off Proph on page 4. Then, in post 205 he attacks me with incredibly weak language. He starts his post with "A bit of a stretch here, but..." which effectively diminishes the significance of his argument before he even makes it and gives him an out if he's wrong. He made the initial catch on Atog, waited for someone else to bring it to the forefront before voting, just /barned what was actually his own argument, and has tried to focus elsewhere since (me / AI).
- Post 158 is full of softballs. The "this is way too nice" swipe at ZDS is nonsense and the null read question toward Azrael and /barn of Hawk is just trying to appear like he's doing something.
- Even more importantly from that same post is this, which is directed at Atog:
The @Proph : You want me to keep pressure on Proph but you specifically want Proph's input to see if your scumread is correct?
How is this not voteworthy? The emoticon at the end makes me think this is coaching in plain sight, plus note the way that this was cleverly tucked at the end of a long quote wall, with no separation from a couple other points he was making. It's like he was hoping this would be glossed over. Also note that he does end up voting Atog over this, but its very weak and in the post he /barns Taredas. Taredas's argument was the same argument Rhand made in 158!
- Post 169 is typical scum behavior: posting fluff that is under the guise of being helpful. The guild claims and talk of guild claims had peaked LONG before Rhand made this post, so how had this "just dawned" on him?
- His assertion that analyzing early wagons is pointless is absolutely absurd. As a matter of fact, town NOT analyzing the early wagons hurt them badly in Iji, as they probably would have actually caught me if they had.
- In post 202, Rhand asked Hawk what his opinion is of Atog and AI... where did AI come from? He had not mentioned him at all before this. Trying to shift attention? This is another point toward AI being a counterwagon.
- Posts 285 and 312 show that he has an acute awareness of who thinks he is town and who thinks he is scum. This is pretty unusual behavior for someone who hasn't been wagoned (or even voted?) at any point whatsoever.
- He has buddied both Azrael and Karn pretty hard. This isn't alignment-indicative, but it is worth nothing as it will say a lot about them if I'm right about Rhand.
A couple other random notes:
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
Sadly, Dkings, after the last game we played, I must be resigned to never believe another thing you say ever. Congrats, not everyone gets to be in that category!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also I think it sends the wrong message that people are in voting atog when responses are necessary. It's showing that not participating is a valid defense.
ZDS is the only one that actually unvoted Atog. The rest of the recent unvotes were on other players.
I do believe we have enough real and virtual votes on Atog for a claim. Let's hear it.
Why are you in such a hurry?
I'm getting bored and want to lynch someone I'm pretty sure is scum.
This might be the first time I've seen someone claim we should lynch because they are bored, outside of when the game pace is slow and everyone is bored.
In my experience, this isn't alignment-telling for AI.
About AI: I didn't think much of him at the time (and before) Azrael started to poke him, because his posting history was full of reasonable-yet-not-telling-either-way comments. I also don't know what to make of his interaction with Azrael; it's like he simultaneously doesn't want to ignore him, but also doesn't want to engage him too frontally.
Then the Atog situation happened, and AI suddenly became extremely overzealous, perhaps irrationally so at times. This level of absolute certainty in Atog's scumness and willingness to ignore (or, just recently, outright brush away) doubt makes me think we might be seeing hot scum on scum bussing action; his recent comment where he taunts Vish to lynch either of them (ie Ai or Atog) comforts me a little in this thought (whichever of the two gets lynched, it will clear the other; or at least that's the idea).
There's also the possibility AI is scum and Atog is town, in which case AI's overzealousness comes from fearing Atog might not get lynched after all, or at least not before Az has the time to spearhead the counter-wagon on him (AI) he's been hinting at for a while.
The third option (AI is town, Atog's alignment is irrelevant) is always an option, but I don't know how to explain AI's recent behaviour if he is town. I suppose he could be hardcore tunneling Atog, but his way of doing things his strange. Typically, when a townie tunnels, they will address and try to dismantle every opinion that contradicts theirs. Instead, AI has been bringing attention to the (real or imagined) pressure on Atog, and downplaying the counter-argument to the Atog wagon without properly trying to counter them.
AI also made some questionable posts before all this, like barn-voting Vishamon for his Sepiriel vote (when AI himself was also voting Sepiriel), or being on the defensive in 230 (and barning Rhand in regards to dkingsland, adding that his post was "astonishingly scummy", which is a big exaggeration, unless he's easily astonished). I'll let Az have the pleasure of going through these though, since (again) my read on AI mostly comes from his interactions with Atog.
To summarise, the most likely option in my opinion is that both AI and Atog are scum, and the least likely option is that AI is town.
Right now however, even though I am more positive AI is scum than I am about Atog, I would still like us to solve the Atog situation and reach a consensus about whether to lynch him before I start to push AI (I would say "before we start to push AI", but you guys can take your own decisions). I'm afraid a counter-wagon on AI at this time might allow Atog to vanish into obscurity; and if we actually go through all the motions and end up lynching AI and he turns up scum, it might undeservingly reflect well on Atog (even though the way AI has been pushing his wagon forwards looks and smells and tastes like bussing). In short, I would prefer we do things in order, and will act accordingly.
......
Unvote
since my vote on Atog wasn't counted (but at this moment I don't really care, especially if it's going to be used as an excuse to force an early claim out of him), and my vote on Karn is pointless right now.
I'm not thrilled that you're sitting back and letting Azrael do the work, when it reads like you want to wagon AI. I could get behind you being worried that an AI lynch would allow Atog to fade into the background, but you're clearly open to each being scum independently of the other, so your unvote and lack of vote don't really mesh for me in this context.
Could you do an in-detail review of why you think AI is scum, if you're more positive he's scum than you are of Atog? I'm more interested in your take on it than Azrael's.
Please explain what you are doing with each of the three portions of this post.
Null. Directed at Hansanator for his Seps vote.
Quote from AI »
Oh I thought the spoiler tag was part of your sig. Nice.
has, why did you bother to make that post if you didn't intend to elaborate on your Proph read or follow up on the Sepiriel wagon? Active lurking?
I liked this bit, until he threw in that barbed "Active lurking?" thing at the end. It was a good question, but why phrase it as a question if you're already presuming you know the answer? It's a break in his mindset - he's presenting himself as curious, when he's really just trying to level an accusation.
I'm gonna ignore everything hans says from here on out. If you are a vig, you should take him out.
Why is that troubling?
This quote must be out of order, but it's disturbing no matter where you put it. Ignoring another player (something in that player's interactions caused a strong pain reaction), plus directing a vig-kill onto him. That's fairly drastic and probably anti-town in effect.
Going to be very important to try to track the motivation for this level of anger. *Goes back and checks*
Wait, what? No, this is in the correct order. What on earth provoked that response??
All that Hans said, was that the Gruul clan ability was interesting, and that he supported other gruul members coming out, in a manner that suggested he might be keeping his cards close to his chest. I have no idea why AI thinks that deserves ignoring him and an automatic vig kill.
I am also Boros. While it's not 100% the case, it's pretty likely that there is scum in each of the four guilds, so they probably already know what the clan abilities do. This is part of the reason I want a guild claim (which includes a general template/overview of what each guild ability does).
Is there SOP for how to deal with (potentially) multiple players whose alignments are not revealed on death?
Calls for a guild claim. Not certain if that's anti or pro town in effect. The point that the scum already probably know what each clan ability does is a good point. That hadn't occurred to me.
Even hidden votes that could potentially be used to speed-lynch someone? Especially when said votes limit the town's ability to conduct wagon analysis, as you yourself pointed out?
If he thinks that your interactions point to you both being scum, that is him hunting scum. I don't see a problem with that.
While the town is slightly more likely to mislynch than lynch correctly on D1, NL is not as useful for the purposes of teasing out interactions, including who pushed for a lynch and for what reasons. A D1 that ends with NL, barring some kind of role-related interaction, is a wasted Day.
At first I agreed with Rhand re: Sepiriel's flailing, but ZDS's counterargument is also persuasive. Personally, I think Sepiriel's AtE is more indicative of an unrefined playstyle than proof of his townishness, but at this point I am willing to leave him alone for now.
I also want to hear what scarbo and Archmage Eternal claim to have on zindabad as I always read him as scum. Same for ZDS re: Sir Karn.
Currently have a town read on Proph.
A bit of wavering on Sepiriel that sounds very unconvincing. He calls both sides of the argument persuasive, qualifies his own opinion with "personally", and then "at this point" and "for now". That's a ton of weasel words. It seems very evident that he's not quite sure what his opinion on Sepiriel ought to be, and he's leaving a LOT of room open for him to manuever. Reads like a pretty classic scum indecisiveness tell. He doesn't know how he ought to be reading Sepiriel as a townie, and he wants the ability to knock him off at an opportune time.
And he's hella nervous and uncomfortable going on the record, hence all the qualifiers and weasel words.
Unless you've stepped up your scum game significantly, you are not confident enough to post that sort of thing as scum without having some sort of direction for followup.
@Rhand: Cythare is typically very active so his absence struck me as odd.
Thanks for the update, Sir Karn.
Taredas brings up a good point re: lynching Sepiriel today. All the more reason for *bang bang shoot shoot* N1.
Quote from Taredas »
That means we are not lynching Sepiriel toDay. Not sure we should do so at all, actually? Sepiriel's defense isn't *great*, but I could see it coming from town, the way the wagon developed suggests that Sepiriel is town (it was the first wagon out of RVS, it developed very quickly, and there's no counterwagon), and Rhand vs. Sepiriel feels like a town-on-town slapfight.
This is the Taredas quote AI was referencing above. There were a few other bits that briefly mentioned Sepiriel, but all of them supported the idea that sepiriel was town and shouldn't be killed.
First, AI barns the post where Taredas argues Seps is town. Then, inexplicably, he thinks that's a good reason to SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE IN THE NIGHT. What?!? Like, I feel like I have to be misrepping him here, and he's really referring to killing Hansantor in the night (not that that's much of an improvement), but even that doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense b/c Taredas also argues in the same post that Hansantor is also strongly likely to be town.
What's going on here?
Also, the bits where he questions activity didn't seem like he was terribly concerned. I exempted that somehow, but here it is:
Quote from AI »
lol Cythare has exactly one post and it is RVS
post moar
Concern doesn't exactly seem to be the emotion foremost in his mindset.
There's also the issue of scum potentially false-claiming Orzhov now knowing that they are unlikely to be lynched toDay. Good catch.
Really? Even though almost everyone else has Rhand as strongly town?
Upon reread, Vish's Sepiriel vote is very bad. While ZDS has a point that Vish could simply be overzealous town, I think the timing feels more like scum sensing blood in the water.
Vote Vishamon
This was the first post of AI's that caught my notice. He breaks into the same scum tell pattern from his first serious vote, on Sepiriel. He states that he sees valid reasons to either vote or not vote Vishamon, with lots of waffle words, he then switches over to some very charged, accusatory language "blood in the water".
These two mindsets don't mix well. You don't often have a townie with a genuine, waffle-y mindset who on the one hand says, ZDS' point that he's overzealous town could very well be right, but who then switches gears and starts throwing around phrases like "scum sensing blood in the water".
He also qualifies that read a couple more times with weasel words "I think", and "feels more like". You then have this completely artificial mixture of a strongly worded accusatory language, with the sentiment that...eh...'I think I feel he's not simply an overzealous townie, but ZDS does have a good point there'.
Furthermore, as Rhand pointed out, the timing of the vote was AFTER the Sepiriel wagon had begun to dissipate, not before. So if the argument is based on timing, it's not well-founded.
I also dislike the description of the Sepiriel vote as "very bad". It's a weakly worded version of what should be a more strongly worded sentiment. Like, the townie version of "very bad" is something like "pretty awful", or "really horrendous". There's some teeth to it, a sense that the player is genuinely appalled. "Very bad" is kind of a limp-wristed phrase that's meant to convey that you think there's something pretty awful about the post, but doesn't carry any actual conviction behind it.
That's a reasonable assessment to make, but I don't think Vishamon was buying into that line of thinking based on the confident tone of his post.
Again, with calling the counter-arguments to his own viewpoint as reasonable! When every time you place a vote, you feel compelled to point out that the people who disagree with you have good reason to hold a completely opposite read, that's a very good sign that you think the position you're pushing is BS.
This is what sealed it for me. In addition to all those weasel words that he's been throwing around, he then sounds inexplicably certain that he knows what Vishamon was doing, based on "the confident tone of his post". I'm not convinced in the slightest.
I buy it. For a catchup post that was astonishingly scummy.
Under threat of dying a painful death, please explain what you see in Az's "catch," as you so put it, and why it suddenly makes you want to lynch me.
Why haven't you done anything relevant?
Notice how often AI is parroting/buddying/endorsing other people's reasoning? This is about the 3rd or 4th time he's adopted or endorsed other people's ideas. Townies do that also, but the sheer number of times AI is doing it reads far more like it's an intentional effort to piggyback than a coincidental occurrence.
The threat of dying a painful death bit, and the "catch" in quotation marks, read like AI is getting a bit cranky under the surface, but is trying to tamp it down.
What even. Your inferiority complex is so strong it almost makes you look arrogant. The mind boggles.
Bite me.
I don't feel that my comment asking him to post 5-10 more times so I could make a better PBPA against him would be particularly insulting if he had a town alignment. I feel like a townie would blow that off and tell me how far wrong I was, probably challenge me to make the case.
That's not AI's reaction. One of the things I posted preceding this was that AI doesn't enjoy playing scum, and that he needed put out of his misery. I think I hit close to the mark on that, and AI wasn't really pleased that I put my finger exactly on that sensitive nerve, that I'm threatening to knock him out early on D1, and that I know it.
You can see that in other aspects of his posting later. He's started to adopt an attitude of defeatism, as if he knows that he's already done for, that his uncomfortable scum game has put him out of the running.
I'm not sure what's more annoying/useless: Atog claiming town or Az claiming scum.
At any rate, it doesn't seem like we're going to get anywhere until zindabad posts again. After that I think we should proceed with lynching Atog.
Subtext I'm getting here, is that he wants Atog gone quickly. Either as a mislynch or bus credit, I'm not sure either, but I agree that the desire to end the game quickly is a negative tell either way.
Wow. I never saw that one coming. You're so clever.
The way he's doing it is so smarmy and self-congratulatory, I don't buy it as genuine. I've seen anti-town behavior before, but to do it and claim that it's a tactical decision? Puh-leaze.
Someone made the comment that he should check in before we lynch anybody, but at this point it's just as likely that he's going to be replaced.
I do believe we have enough real and virtual votes on Atog for a claim. Let's hear it.
I've found that "preview" is only good for reviewing one's own post; if you want to see the current state of the thread, you have to refresh the whole page or open it up in a new tab.
I'm getting bored and want to lynch someone I'm pretty sure is scum.
Boredom? I'm thinking that's more of a "waiting for the hammer to drop" emotion, than actual boredom. The game hasn't been boring (for anyone else) up till now.
As someone who came out of hiatus specifically to play in this game, I think I have to right to decide when and under what circumstances I am bored (which is not a slight against Meg in any way). Lurkers gonna lurk.
Again, I think you can trace the "boredom" and disinterest back to my first naked vote on AI. That's the point at which he lost interest in the game, because he felt his time was over.
Summary-
AI's votes on Sepiriel and Vishamon were packed full of multiple scum tells. He mixes an underlying mindset of repeatedly endorsing the validity of the reasoning of the people who are town-reading his targets, mixes that with nervous, self-conscious qualifiers on his own reads, but then throws in some hyper-aggressive, overly-confident accusatory language to finish it off. That combination of traditional scum voting tells is pretty strongly indicative.
Together with that, you get the defeatism and boredom in response to the initial naked vote against him. Again, that's very much in keeping with AI's lack of confidence in his scum game.
There are also a few other very bizarre bits like the inexplicable calling for Hansantor to get vigged. I'm almost uncomfortable calling them scum tells because they're just so weird and hard to explain under either alignment for AI. Like, I feel like a scum AI would feel equally uncomfortable directing the vig because he's experienced enough to know how bad that is, having so little basis to do so this early in the day. But maybe not.
Would vote except that I'm a bloodthirsty Gruul player and that's not what we manly barbarians do: Asianinvasion.
Dkings:
What exactly do you mean by "conviction"? If there's one reproach I could make to Rhand this game, it's that he's got way too much conviction. I'm pretty sure his negative opinion of you has its roots back in the very very early game, for instance. Did you mean to say he's not "convincing" instead? Because it would be a lot more coherent with the arguments you present.
No, I mean conviction. He hasn't tried to convince anyone of anything. He isn't arguing that anyone is scum, he's just saying it and then lobbing around softballs like post 158 instead of scumhunting. And considering I posted all of about 4 sentences in this game before my post further up the page, any scum read Rhand could have formed on me at this point is on some pretty shaky ground (someone... maybe Azrael?... already called him out for this).
My scum read on him developed from actually reading his posts. Today is the first day since this game started that I've actually had time to really sink into it. His interactions with Atog are shoddy... I mean, seriously, he was the first person to point out Atog's post that Taredas "caught"... and then he /barns Taredas when he votes Atog. What's that whole thing about scum forgetting their reads because they have to make them up as they go along?
AI's votes on Sepiriel and Vishamon were packed full of multiple scum tells. He mixes an underlying mindset of repeatedly endorsing the validity of the reasoning of the people who are town-reading his targets, mixes that with nervous, self-conscious qualifiers on his own reads, but then throws in some hyper-aggressive, overly-confident accusatory language to finish it off. That combination of traditional scum voting tells is pretty strongly indicative.
Together with that, you get the defeatism and boredom in response to the initial naked vote against him. Again, that's very much in keeping with AI's lack of confidence in his scum game.
There are also a few other very bizarre bits like the inexplicable calling for Hansantor to get vigged. I'm almost uncomfortable calling them scum tells because they're just so weird and hard to explain under either alignment for AI. Like, I feel like a scum AI would feel equally uncomfortable directing the vig because he's experienced enough to know how bad that is, having so little basis to do so this early in the day. But maybe not.
Would vote except that I'm a bloodthirsty Gruul player and that's not what we manly barbarians do: Asianinvasion.
I skipped the blah blah and went right to the good part.
If you think a single naked vote even made a blip on my radar, you have no idea how to read me. I'm not sure how considering the validity of points made by people who are town-reading people I'm voting makes me anything but someone trying to look at a situation from multiple angles.
There's no defeatism in any of my posts. If you're referring to the "lynch one of us" comment, that is not defeatism.
I also direct the vig in a majority of my games. I probably do it more as town, but I don't have data to support that.
I am also Boros. While it's not 100% the case, it's pretty likely that there is scum in each of the four guilds, so they probably already know what the clan abilities do. This is part of the reason I want a guild claim (which includes a general template/overview of what each guild ability does).
Is there SOP for how to deal with (potentially) multiple players whose alignments are not revealed on death?
Calls for a guild claim. Not certain if that's anti or pro town in effect. The point that the scum already probably know what each clan ability does is a good point. That hadn't occurred to me.
@Rhand: Cythare is typically very active so his absence struck me as odd.
Thanks for the update, Sir Karn.
Taredas brings up a good point re: lynching Sepiriel today. All the more reason for *bang bang shoot shoot* N1.
Quote from Taredas »
That means we are not lynching Sepiriel toDay. Not sure we should do so at all, actually? Sepiriel's defense isn't *great*, but I could see it coming from town, the way the wagon developed suggests that Sepiriel is town (it was the first wagon out of RVS, it developed very quickly, and there's no counterwagon), and Rhand vs. Sepiriel feels like a town-on-town slapfight.
This is the Taredas quote AI was referencing above. There were a few other bits that briefly mentioned Sepiriel, but all of them supported the idea that sepiriel was town and shouldn't be killed.
First, AI barns the post where Taredas argues Seps is town. Then, inexplicably, he thinks that's a good reason to SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE IN THE NIGHT. What?!? Like, I feel like I have to be misrepping him here, and he's really referring to killing Hansantor in the night (not that that's much of an improvement), but even that doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense b/c Taredas also argues in the same post that Hansantor is also strongly likely to be town.
What's going on here?
Here you are misreading or misrepping the post. Taredas wasn't saying that Sepiral shouldn't be lynched because he was Town. He was saying Sepiral shouldn't be lynched because he claimed Orzhov, i.e. "no reveal." AI apparently agreed with that, but thinks Orzhov should therefore be vigged. Which has it's own issues.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
ZDS: There's a difference between a lack of belief and an inability to convince others. While I have to review Rhand's posts regarding the lack of conviction, they definitely don't fall into the latter category.
@dkings: I have been reading him as town because of 75 and 205. I also wrote down that 164 looked townie, but I'm not sure why any more.
75: I like the language he uses here. It's also one of the first notes anyone has against Atogaholic, which reads genuinely to me. His note on ZDS is null, but was something that aligned with what I read too. 205: While I'll admit I didn't catch his sling at you, I did follow his logic about overanalyzing smaller wagons. Upon further review, it doesn't really make him town, because that's something that could probably come from either alignment.
That said, 80 is horrible for the lynch line up, 91 reads like he might be annoyed that he can't wagon Porps, and I really don't like 169.
Here you are misreading or misrepping the post. Taredas wasn't saying that Sepiral shouldn't be lynched because he was Town. He was saying Sepiral shouldn't be lynched because he claimed Orzhov, i.e. "no reveal." AI apparently agreed with that, but thinks Orzhov should therefore be vigged. Which has it's own issues.
Orzhov and anti-town in behavior, regardless of actual alignment. I'm a firm believer in using the vig to weed out distractions to the town. At no point did I suggest it is wise to gun down every Orzhov player.
I want Togs to start posting again - just because we've given him some reprieve doesn't mean that he's completely off the hook. Disappearing under pressure is common.
@AI:
1. Can you give me a town/scum list?
2. Please ask at least three different people one question each.
I skipped the blah blah and went right to the good part.
If you think a single naked vote even made a blip on my radar, you have no idea how to read me.
There's no defeatism in any of my posts. If you're referring to the "lynch one of us" comment, that is not defeatism.
*shrugs* Your posting styled changed immediately after I latched onto you. Suddenly the game was no fun.
Quote from AI »
I also direct the vig in a majority of my games. I probably do it more as town, but I don't have data to support that.
Ok.
Quote from AI »
You made us wait a whole day for that?
Nice scum phrase, that. ++Dismissiveness.
Quote from AI »
I'm not sure how considering the validity of points made by people who are town-reading people I'm voting makes me anything but someone trying to look at a situation from multiple angles.
More like, endorsing the validity of people who held the opposite read from you.
Then nervously dancing with waffle words to conjure up justification for a vote anyways, then over-selling it conspicuousy.
I'm not sure how considering the validity of points made by people who are town-reading people I'm voting makes me anything but someone trying to look at a situation from multiple angles.
More like, endorsing the validity of people who held the opposite read from you.
Then nervously dancing with waffle words to conjure up justification for a vote anyways, then over-selling it conspicuousy.
Because undermining my own reads is a smart thing to do as scum? What?
I'm having troubles sorting my thoughts in this game, joining a large game after a break while still in school makes for a slow boot-up process, apparently.
It doesn't help that we're somehow stalling so early in the day.
Anyway, I'm still happy to lynch either AI or togs. I feel like AI is the most likely scum out of the two very likely scum though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
@AI how do you define a 'distraction to the town?'
A player whose only contributions so far are to attract an early wagon and then accuse everyone voting for him of being scum qualifies, wouldn't you say?
I'm having troubles sorting my thoughts in this game, joining a large game after a break while still in school makes for a slow boot-up process, apparently.
It doesn't help that we're somehow stalling so early in the day.
Anyway, I'm still happy to lynch either AI or togs. I feel like AI is the most likely scum out of the two very likely scum though.
"most likely scum out of the two very likely scum"
You are going to need to do better than that.
Rhand seems way more twitchy than I remember him. AI wisely made no response to my post, but Rhand popped up with "no his reaction looks town!!" before AI even had a chance to say anything. Why get involved, Rhand?
Eh? You almost literally asked for input on that. Someone accused you of trying to find someone to do the work for you.
No I didn't. I said it for two reasons: to draw attention to AI's immediate response to the reveal of the Gruul mechanic as "anti-town", and to see what reaction I could draw from him on said point. You jumping in was not conducive to reason #2 being effective.
You should give those reasons why Proph is scum now instead of later (or never).
It's a pretty tenuous observation that I made, and I wasn't intending to persuade anyone with it. You'll probably laugh at me if I tell you.
You wrote the same post twice but in the second one there's been more added, so you reworked what you were originally saying. This suggests the response is more "crafted" than authentic. You also are trying to downplay your involvement with voting Sepiriel - of course it's a tenuous observation, the game was 20 posts old. Just spit it out and stand by your reads if you actually have them.
A) If hans's post is crafted instead of authentic... then why did he post it twice, when doing so would surely draw attention to himself? If anything, the rephasing suggests that hans is *town* who doesn't care about how he's perceived.
B) How is hans "trying to downplay his involvement with voting Sepiriel", especially considering that he was specifically responding to multiple people asking him why he thought *Proph* was scum?
A: He didn't mean to post it twice. That's the point. That's why it's a slip - he was crafting the message, working out a different (less scummy? more faux-convicted?) way to say what he wanted to say. Then he forgot to erase what he actually wanted to say. It happens. The self-spin is indicative of a scum mindset though.
B: I meant to say Proph.
Why do you think Sepiriel's defense comes from scum instead of panicking town? Townies can get desperate in the face of a lynch or even a single strong attack (case in point: Generic in WWE Mafia, who imploded and coughed up an unforced vanilla claim when I attacked him early D1) - Sepiriel's defense may be *bad*, but I don't see how that makes him *scum*.
Moreover, why include the last sentence? Even if another player is invoking self-meta, that's completely irrelevant to Sepiriel's alignment.
He's too experienced to be trying that on, D1 or not. And I wrote it because I hate self-meta and despair at the prevalence of its use on this site.
Something just dawned on me. We're playing right into the cards of scum with all the guild claims.
@All the non-Gruul that haven't claimed yet: please don't do it.
Especially the remaining Orzhov need to keep silent.
It is good that the abilities are public, but not good that the players having them are outed too.
I'm not even sure. At first I was like "there are 4 guilds and the Mafia are hiding in those four, so, the Mafia already know the 'guild abilities' and we're only keeping info from the Town by not saying." And then I was like "but, wait, the Mafia aren't actually members of the guilds they are 'hiding' in - they are Dimir, right? So, maybe they don't actually know the Guild abilities and we're shooting ourselves in the foot right out the gate by saying them..." And then I was like "but, no, that's probably not how it is. They have very likely been given the same guild abilities as the Town to mask them, so it's back to what I thought originally." And in that case, it seems like hiding what Guild you are is just going to be hard.
I don't think we're hiding anything the scum don't already know. It's going to come out anyway, and soon. The mechanics look to be pretty public one way or the other.
Something just dawned on me. We're playing right into the cards of scum with all the guild claims.
@All the non-Gruul that haven't claimed yet: please don't do it.
Especially the remaining Orzhov need to keep silent.
It is good that the abilities are public, but not good that the players having them are outed too.
There's also the issue of scum potentially false-claiming Orzhov now knowing that they are unlikely to be lynched toDay. Good catch.
Taredas + Proph + Rhand scumteam looks probable this game
Really? Even though almost everyone else has Rhand as strongly town?
Upon reread, Vish's Sepiriel vote is very bad. While ZDS has a point that Vish could simply be overzealous town, I think the timing feels more like scum sensing blood in the water.
Vote Vishamon
That's funny, I was thinking the same thing about this vote.
Posts do not exactly inspire me, though once again I mentioned that he has a defensive playstyle early game and strong analysis late game. I hope he shows some of this analysis earlier though.
1. Are you the type that likes to hold your vote? You've called out a number of players (AI, Sepiriel, Rhand) but you're not actually voting them, which reads to me like you're not taking a stance. Why?
The answer to this question can be derived from information available in the thread. But even that reason notwithstanding, I'll vote when I'm good and ready.
I am still looking forward to a better explanation of the meta-case on Zindabad (with links, preferably).
I can't even decide if AE is scum or not. Attacking me is a null tell for him - he does it every game without fail. I'd be a little worried if he didn't open this game with an ill-defined accusation.
The previous three posts were all about Sepiriel and/or mechanics. Then a vote on snurfy based on...what? His lack of posts? His failure to respond to a question due to lack of posts? I hate when someone goes "oh we can't lynch this guy on D1 because we'd get no information from it." If he's worth a lynch, he's worth a lynch. As far as we know, that no-reveal thing may not ever go away. Are we going to leave him and the rest of the Orzhov alone forever?
Obv-Scum Who Hates Being Scum and Needs Put out of his Misery
Asianinvasion
This is true, he hates being scum. If so, that 1st post by Zindabad could have been a weak buss attempt to fall back on. But Azrael, why the ? after Vis' weak town
So, actually, you have nothing. I wonder how many of your posts so far in this game include my name. I'd wager above 50%, probably closer to 75%.
Psych! Vishamon's town too after reread. And yours is a scum vote.
Then why haven't you moved your vote?
I liked this. There was someone else who asked Azrael why he was voting now after making a fuss over Gruul not voting because of potential shenanigans with Bloodrush - I think that was Rhand. That was another good question.
Azrael's modus operandi is exactly what you have seen so far - to quietly and subtly try to set boundaries for the town, because the one who makes the rules has all the power. He's willing to let the rest of us be Ned Stark, or Robb, as you like it, and end up headless. He's either Varys or Littlefinger, depending on alignment. And neither one of those shadowy fellows thinks their own rules apply to them.
Incidentally, I should say I'm not a big fan of Taredas's first post either. I was fairly put of with the big "DON'T LYNCH ORZHOV BECAUSE WE NEED INFO" warning at the beginning. Like, yes, it's less than ideal to lynch someone D1 who won't have their alignment revealed, but this looks like an over-reaction. If I thought an Orzhov person was acting the scummiest, I would totally advocate lynching them and shrug my shoulders about the no reveal part. It was all just a bit dramatic.
Pretty much the whole post, except I wanted to explain why my posts were usually short.
Quote from Rhand »
How do the two bolded statements mesh?
To clarify- I said we didn't need to worry about the guilds outing that were beneficial to the town to know- Gruul and Boros. Orzhov and Simic, on the other hand, should be approched more discreetly.
Quote from Rhand »
Do you really think it's scummy to ask the best reader of people in the game for a read on someone you think you're tunneling and then adjusting your read accordingly?
I really think it's scummy to blindly follow the best reader in the game as if his word were law.
It's not scummy, it's just a bad idea. In general I advocate, as Cyan termed it once, marching to the beat of your own drum. The opinions of the other players actually don't matter than much - when you're right, that kind of inexorable rightness you feel when you have somebody nailed, they'll know, and they'll follow.
Asian:
What does Zindabad have to do with anything?
Someone made the comment that he should check in before we lynch anybody, but at this point it's just as likely that he's going to be replaced.
I think you know better than that. We've played probably 20+ games together. I've never been replaced and I've never been particularly involved on D1. You acting like you don't know that is troubling.
This is pure speculation, but I'm guessing that lynching Obzedat will free the Orzhov players from Immortal Servitude.
Pot, kettle, black: Do you have anything other than mechanics speculation to contribute?
While I'm at it, though, here's my take on Ghost Council - I think it's a disguise for a player's votes. He PMs his votes to Meg who posts them as if Obzedat were voting. Either that, or he's a double-voter, and Obzedat votes the last person he voted (that's how I would do it. Like an afterimage voter.)
I don't see why it would be an overreaction, considering how much pressure claimed-Orzhov Sepiriel was under at that point? I wanted to spike the Sepiriel wagon's momentum - so I played up the drama, so the people attacking Sepiriel would be more likely to take a look at what I was saying, step back, and reassess.
I still think we're better off ignoring the Orzhov toDay and looking at them starting toMorrow - it's basically the same argument as no-lynching D1. There's only a couple of scenarios I can think of where lynching a player who won't reveal D1 makes sense if there are players who will reveal (a plethora of Orzhov claims [8-10?] to the extent that it's likely that most if not all of the scum have claimed Orzhov, in which case lynching in Orzhov is fine for PoE; or a player I trust has claimed an ability that allows him/her to learn the identity of dead players, ala Gravedigger in WitchHunt; or an Orzhov lynch is the only realistic alternative to a No Lynch [read: desperation deadline lynch]).
I don't think that the Orzhov are going to remain undefined forever. At some point we have to trust that Megiddo didn't make a quarter of the players permanent no-reveals, or this would just devolve into a guessing game. So if an Orzhov player is the scummiest now, I'd rather trust in the countermeasures that the host has probably built into the game to stop it from becoming Go Fish, and lynch that player, rather than giving them a pass until some unknown time at which point we might find ourselves facing a much worse situation and still being unsure about that player's alignment.
I want to see Atog amd Rhand dead. I think AI is a counterwagon.
Regarding Atog, I don't feel much need to spell out my reasoning because it would just be repeating things already said. His original interactions with Proph are pretty much slam dunk on their own, and his subsequent OMGUS reaction toward Taredas is just icing. Also, take note of posts 170 and 208. In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI". I've been in enough situations where scum have put one buddy in such a grouping (and done it myself), and note who comes last in both of these. It's possible AI might be a buddy too, but I can also see why Atog would have placed town!AI in that position because he was beginning to receive pressure.
Regarding Rhand, here I'll go into detail because a bunch of people are calling him town and I have no clue why.
- Scarbo already called him out for this, but Rhand is the KING of attacking other players for linking people pre-flip, and it is something he has done repeatedly throughout the day.
- He has had no conviction in any of his reads. He asserted "Scum 1 found!" when voting Sepiriel, then immediately started telling us Proph was a stronger scum read. He was clinging to the Sepiriel self-vote in RVS for way too long as nothing else gained traction. This is the same thing I did as scum in Pleasantville to try to appear like I was putting in effort. Look how quickly Rhand backed off Proph on page 4. Then, in post 205 he attacks me with incredibly weak language. He starts his post with "A bit of a stretch here, but..." which effectively diminishes the significance of his argument before he even makes it and gives him an out if he's wrong. He made the initial catch on Atog, waited for someone else to bring it to the forefront before voting, just /barned what was actually his own argument, and has tried to focus elsewhere since (me / AI).
- Post 158 is full of softballs. The "this is way too nice" swipe at ZDS is nonsense and the null read question toward Azrael and /barn of Hawk is just trying to appear like he's doing something.
- Even more importantly from that same post is this, which is directed at Atog:
The @Proph : You want me to keep pressure on Proph but you specifically want Proph's input to see if your scumread is correct?
How is this not voteworthy? The emoticon at the end makes me think this is coaching in plain sight, plus note the way that this was cleverly tucked at the end of a long quote wall, with no separation from a couple other points he was making. It's like he was hoping this would be glossed over. Also note that he does end up voting Atog over this, but its very weak and in the post he /barns Taredas. Taredas's argument was the same argument Rhand made in 158!
- Post 169 is typical scum behavior: posting fluff that is under the guise of being helpful. The guild claims and talk of guild claims had peaked LONG before Rhand made this post, so how had this "just dawned" on him?
- His assertion that analyzing early wagons is pointless is absolutely absurd. As a matter of fact, town NOT analyzing the early wagons hurt them badly in Iji, as they probably would have actually caught me if they had.
- In post 202, Rhand asked Hawk what his opinion is of Atog and AI... where did AI come from? He had not mentioned him at all before this. Trying to shift attention? This is another point toward AI being a counterwagon.
- Posts 285 and 312 show that he has an acute awareness of who thinks he is town and who thinks he is scum. This is pretty unusual behavior for someone who hasn't been wagoned (or even voted?) at any point whatsoever.
- He has buddied both Azrael and Karn pretty hard. This isn't alignment-indicative, but it is worth nothing as it will say a lot about them if I'm right about Rhand.
A couple other random notes:
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
Orzhov and anti-town in behavior, regardless of actual alignment.
And that quote may be all you need to know to read AI this game. Bolding mine.
I see no problem there. I've always separated anti-town behavior from role. I did see a problem with your PBPA, though, which read needlessly forced and tried to twist everything AI's said or done into being scummy somehow.
Not interested. Ask me again Day Two, I may have more ****s to give then.
C'mon, man. You're the highest poster in the thread and you're telling me you're not invested enough to comply with my requests?
Quote from AI »
vote AI
I'm having troubles sorting my thoughts in this game, joining a large game after a break while still in school makes for a slow boot-up process, apparently.
It doesn't help that we're somehow stalling so early in the day.
Anyway, I'm still happy to lynch either AI or togs. I feel like AI is the most likely scum out of the two very likely scum though.
KoolKoal:
1. Read the most recent 5 pages.
2. Ask at least three different people at least one question each.
3. Give us an idea of your reads based on the portion of the game you have read.
4. Start playing the game and post at a reasonable rate.
Don't give me this lazy bandwagon vote - we're starting to lose pace.
I find it really awkward that despite the pressure Az is mounting on AI, Az is still on the same wagon as him. I wouldn't cry if a Togs lynch happened Today, but I definitely want him to come back and answer our questions.
This is pure speculation, but I'm guessing that lynching Obzedat will free the Orzhov players from Immortal Servitude.
Pot, kettle, black: Do you have anything other than mechanics speculation to contribute?
While I'm at it, though, here's my take on Ghost Council - I think it's a disguise for a player's votes. He PMs his votes to Meg who posts them as if Obzedat were voting. Either that, or he's a double-voter, and Obzedat votes the last person he voted (that's how I would do it. Like an afterimage voter.)
I didn't at the time, but it's not like that's been my only post. Also, what do you mean by "pot, kettle, black"? I haven't accused anyone of any content-related issues, so this just feels out of place.
I want to see Atog amd Rhand dead. I think AI is a counterwagon.
Regarding Atog, I don't feel much need to spell out my reasoning because it would just be repeating things already said. His original interactions with Proph are pretty much slam dunk on their own, and his subsequent OMGUS reaction toward Taredas is just icing. Also, take note of posts 170 and 208. In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI". I've been in enough situations where scum have put one buddy in such a grouping (and done it myself), and note who comes last in both of these. It's possible AI might be a buddy too, but I can also see why Atog would have placed town!AI in that position because he was beginning to receive pressure.
Regarding Rhand, here I'll go into detail because a bunch of people are calling him town and I have no clue why.
- Scarbo already called him out for this, but Rhand is the KING of attacking other players for linking people pre-flip, and it is something he has done repeatedly throughout the day.
- He has had no conviction in any of his reads. He asserted "Scum 1 found!" when voting Sepiriel, then immediately started telling us Proph was a stronger scum read. He was clinging to the Sepiriel self-vote in RVS for way too long as nothing else gained traction. This is the same thing I did as scum in Pleasantville to try to appear like I was putting in effort. Look how quickly Rhand backed off Proph on page 4. Then, in post 205 he attacks me with incredibly weak language. He starts his post with "A bit of a stretch here, but..." which effectively diminishes the significance of his argument before he even makes it and gives him an out if he's wrong. He made the initial catch on Atog, waited for someone else to bring it to the forefront before voting, just /barned what was actually his own argument, and has tried to focus elsewhere since (me / AI).
- Post 158 is full of softballs. The "this is way too nice" swipe at ZDS is nonsense and the null read question toward Azrael and /barn of Hawk is just trying to appear like he's doing something.
- Even more importantly from that same post is this, which is directed at Atog:
The @Proph : You want me to keep pressure on Proph but you specifically want Proph's input to see if your scumread is correct?
How is this not voteworthy? The emoticon at the end makes me think this is coaching in plain sight, plus note the way that this was cleverly tucked at the end of a long quote wall, with no separation from a couple other points he was making. It's like he was hoping this would be glossed over. Also note that he does end up voting Atog over this, but its very weak and in the post he /barns Taredas. Taredas's argument was the same argument Rhand made in 158!
- Post 169 is typical scum behavior: posting fluff that is under the guise of being helpful. The guild claims and talk of guild claims had peaked LONG before Rhand made this post, so how had this "just dawned" on him?
- His assertion that analyzing early wagons is pointless is absolutely absurd. As a matter of fact, town NOT analyzing the early wagons hurt them badly in Iji, as they probably would have actually caught me if they had.
- In post 202, Rhand asked Hawk what his opinion is of Atog and AI... where did AI come from? He had not mentioned him at all before this. Trying to shift attention? This is another point toward AI being a counterwagon.
- Posts 285 and 312 show that he has an acute awareness of who thinks he is town and who thinks he is scum. This is pretty unusual behavior for someone who hasn't been wagoned (or even voted?) at any point whatsoever.
- He has buddied both Azrael and Karn pretty hard. This isn't alignment-indicative, but it is worth nothing as it will say a lot about them if I'm right about Rhand.
A couple other random notes:
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
I really liked this post and dkingsland's tone.
What specifically about this post do you like? It's got a lot going on, and your statement is vague.
Azrael's modus operandi is exactly what you have seen so far - to quietly and subtly try to set boundaries for the town, because the one who makes the rules has all the power. He's willing to let the rest of us be Ned Stark, or Robb, as you like it, and end up headless. He's either Varys or Littlefinger, depending on alignment. And neither one of those shadowy fellows thinks their own rules apply to them.
Well, that's the first time anyone's compared me to Littlefinger. *grimace* I don't mind the Varys comparison quite so much, and I suspect you're wronging him in that characterization. Varys plays by his own rules, but he follows them.
Still, a shadow-lurker doesn't sound very much like me at all. Quiet? Subtle? Let the rest of the town lead the charge? Sitting quietly spinning webs in a back alley doesn't sound like me in the slightest. I think you'd strike closer to the mark if Daenerys and Varys had a child.
As for the charge of hypocrite...
Quote from Zindabad »
Answer the question. Why are you voting now after exhorting Gruul players not to vote?
Already answered, simple mistake.
Quote from Zindabad »
I see no problem there. I've always separated anti-town behavior from role. I did see a problem with your PBPA, though, which read needlessly forced and tried to twist everything AI's said or done into being scummy somehow.
That's some heavy hyperbole you're laying down there, sir. Half of his posts I read as null, and I straight out admitted that I needed clarification on what he meant calling for a vigilante, to avoid misrepping him.
Is your alignment coloring your read, or your personal dislike?
AI is going to flip scum. His voting rationales and the mannerisms of his defense are rife with classic scum mistakes. Even you pointed that out in your previous post - before seeing fit for some reason to argue with a PBPA that reached similar conclusions about his voting history.
Whether it's AI today, or whether someone like Atog should go first is yet to be determined. And who his buddies might be. But I don't expect to learn I'm wrong about my AI read. Do you?
@Proph: I don't do T/S lists on D1 any more. It's an exercise in futility. I also am not going to go out of my way to ask questions just because you want me to.
@Az: So what's going to happen to your view of the gamestate if I die before you and you are proven wrong?
@zin: No offense intended with the comment re: you getting replaced. I just hate it when you lurk (which is more often than not). Congrats on the zinda-baby!
I need to do a good reread (I have tried to keep up with the page when i could spare time though, but its definitely not a solid reread).
Some points i want to note:
1) Regarding Hans, the more i think about it the more i consider the possibility he isn't scum, dont get me wrong I hate the way he went about everything but in a way it was similar to Rhand where by going through me he gets more insight on others, I just really dislike the vibe he gave when waffling his way through the wagon.
2) Sir Karn asking where i was is reasonable since the post itself reads as being time constrained and not enough time for a post, AI's post however reeks of opportunism, he clearly showed no such time constraints and a simple look at my last post would have shown him my V/LA notice.
3) I saw a couple of multiposts from hawk that really bothered me regarding his justifications for thinking me scum, it seemed too opportune without actually wanting to commit.
4) I want to /barn Az's case on AI, its well made, logical and it presents a clear picture and the way AI has replied to it seems kinda flaily to me.
5)I really want to laugh at zinda... i mean he is clearly suddenly giving me a lot of experience cred, and telling us that the self-meta defense is really weak and all that, but in the big ass post he just made he used self meta when responding to AI's post
Im just going to quote/paste the response since multiquoting is a pain:
I think you know better than that. We've played probably 20+ games together. I've never been replaced and I've never been particularly involved on D1. You acting like you don't know that is troubling.
6) I need to re-read Vishamon, i originally didn't like the vote + push but it had more to do with the wording used but i really need to do a reread to get a feel of what pinged for me then.
7)Regarding Lynching/Vigging Orzhov's, as Taredas mentioned neither action would result in any useful results, I leave it to the Vig if theres any to do as they please, im sure there MUST be some sort of mechanic to remove the servitude at which point a review of players may yield information, its a hypothetical and one we cannot even assume to be true this early on in the game but if the vig plans to play around with that probability then ok but we shouldn't limit our lynch information just because you dont like the play style being shown by a player so early in the game, its a waste of resources.
So for now: /vote AI
++scum hawk
+scum zinda
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from »
Call me old fashioned, but an evil ascension to power just isn't the same without someone chanting faux Latin in the background.
Oreo, Glazing people better than Dunkin' Donuts since 2009
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange eons even death may die.
Hear me out. I hate Day 1s. There's a lot of players and very little information, which leads to a lack of focus, which leads to a day that can last 1000 posts, which is a pain in the rear to analyze later in the game. I don't know what Obzedat does, but it if has anything to do with Immortal Servitude, what's the usefulness in keeping it around? Maybe someone is controlling its vote, but is that really that helpful? It's just one vote. And why waste a vig shot on it when it could be immune to night actions? And why potentially wait until later in the game when we're down to the wire to waste a lynch on it?
If anyone has a good reason we shouldn't lynch it today, I'm totally open to hearing it. But so far all I've seen is "No that's not good idea- let's do it later or vig it" with no substantiating reasons. At first I thought it could be a hydra, but I don't have any reason to believe that. So convince me I'm wrong.
There is zero evidence that lynching Obzedat will result in the Immortal Servitude going away. Zero. That was a completely baseless speculation. And while baseless speculation is fine and all, actually advocating a lynch based off of it is not. The simplest explanation is that it's just an anonymous vote. Which is not that big a deal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Also, ZDS had a question or two for me but I'm phone posting and don't remember them.
I kind of would rather vote prophy right now.
I'm not seeing the whole togs thing.
AI isn't striking me awfully. What's the case on him right now?
Sepiriel seems to have disappeared as soon as the wagon on him collapsed. Our digs I miss a post? If I'm not missing anything, then that's REALLY shady behavior and i'd be cool putting my vote right back on him.
unvote
I'll either get a response from you guys or check it myself tomorrow about Sep. Will vote Sep if he just disappeared. Will probably vote porps otherwise?
Anyway, bed time.
@Taredas
1. What are your thoughts on the following players:
AsianInvasion
Sir Karn
7hawk77
Archmage Eternal
dkingsland967
2. Can you give me examples of mafiascum games where people pulled the "I'm baiting reactions!" stint? I can't recall any.
The pressure on Atog is not waning just because two people are questioning their reads. Are we playing the same game?
Lynch one of us and find out.
Good call. Sepiriel is AWOL.
It's a weak town tell at best. Scum fake indecisiveness all the time.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
NO.
Why do you ask?
Karn (and anyone else), look at this and tell me why you're not 'seeing the whole togs thing.' Then tell me why I'm wrong.
/barn scarbo
Outdated Mafia Stats
I always find it strange to see posts challenging people to lynch themselves.
Outdated Mafia Stats
This in response to the question "why so eager to get a claim from Atog."
Now, the proper response to this question - says another person who has stated they are ready to hear Atog claim - is that you're ready to move the game along. I have no interest in 1000+ post day ones. I'd much rather get the claim now, and go ahead and decide. A claim is kind of the next step, and then, generally, you lynch that person or move on. AI is asking for a claim, but here indicating his strong desire for a lynch, which is jumping over the rather important "claim" step. And the reason "because I'm bored" is just bad, whether you're "pretty sure" someone is scum or not (which you probably shouldn't be at this point, not given what Atog has posted so far.)
This rings of false bravado. I don't see what you get from making a post like this if you're town. It reads almost like you're saying you're ready to trade 1-1 with Atog (because you're just that sure of his scumminess?) As though lynching you and you flipping Town would prove anything about Atog. Either that or you're just being a bit smarmy.
Unvote
Still waiting for Atog to come back and say something else.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Outdated Mafia Stats
I'm gonna have to whip some of you into shape.
I want to see Atog amd Rhand dead. I think AI is a counterwagon.
Regarding Atog, I don't feel much need to spell out my reasoning because it would just be repeating things already said. His original interactions with Proph are pretty much slam dunk on their own, and his subsequent OMGUS reaction toward Taredas is just icing. Also, take note of posts 170 and 208. In the former, he quotes a "Proph + Taredas + Rhand" scumteam, and in the latter its "Proph + Taredas + AI". I've been in enough situations where scum have put one buddy in such a grouping (and done it myself), and note who comes last in both of these. It's possible AI might be a buddy too, but I can also see why Atog would have placed town!AI in that position because he was beginning to receive pressure.
Regarding Rhand, here I'll go into detail because a bunch of people are calling him town and I have no clue why.
- Scarbo already called him out for this, but Rhand is the KING of attacking other players for linking people pre-flip, and it is something he has done repeatedly throughout the day.
- He has had no conviction in any of his reads. He asserted "Scum 1 found!" when voting Sepiriel, then immediately started telling us Proph was a stronger scum read. He was clinging to the Sepiriel self-vote in RVS for way too long as nothing else gained traction. This is the same thing I did as scum in Pleasantville to try to appear like I was putting in effort. Look how quickly Rhand backed off Proph on page 4. Then, in post 205 he attacks me with incredibly weak language. He starts his post with "A bit of a stretch here, but..." which effectively diminishes the significance of his argument before he even makes it and gives him an out if he's wrong. He made the initial catch on Atog, waited for someone else to bring it to the forefront before voting, just /barned what was actually his own argument, and has tried to focus elsewhere since (me / AI).
- Post 158 is full of softballs. The "this is way too nice" swipe at ZDS is nonsense and the null read question toward Azrael and /barn of Hawk is just trying to appear like he's doing something.
- Even more importantly from that same post is this, which is directed at Atog:
How is this not voteworthy? The emoticon at the end makes me think this is coaching in plain sight, plus note the way that this was cleverly tucked at the end of a long quote wall, with no separation from a couple other points he was making. It's like he was hoping this would be glossed over. Also note that he does end up voting Atog over this, but its very weak and in the post he /barns Taredas. Taredas's argument was the same argument Rhand made in 158!
- Post 169 is typical scum behavior: posting fluff that is under the guise of being helpful. The guild claims and talk of guild claims had peaked LONG before Rhand made this post, so how had this "just dawned" on him?
- His assertion that analyzing early wagons is pointless is absolutely absurd. As a matter of fact, town NOT analyzing the early wagons hurt them badly in Iji, as they probably would have actually caught me if they had.
- In post 202, Rhand asked Hawk what his opinion is of Atog and AI... where did AI come from? He had not mentioned him at all before this. Trying to shift attention? This is another point toward AI being a counterwagon.
- Posts 285 and 312 show that he has an acute awareness of who thinks he is town and who thinks he is scum. This is pretty unusual behavior for someone who hasn't been wagoned (or even voted?) at any point whatsoever.
- He has buddied both Azrael and Karn pretty hard. This isn't alignment-indicative, but it is worth nothing as it will say a lot about them if I'm right about Rhand.
A couple other random notes:
@Proph, re:206... two games doesn't make a pattern. Also, I was scum in one of those two.
Cythare's post 297... I cannot see a single reason he would have made this post as scum.
My town reads at the moment are AE, Cythare, Proph and Taredas. Karn and Azrael are likely town if Rhand is scum.
In my experience, this isn't alignment-telling for AI. I'm not thrilled that you're sitting back and letting Azrael do the work, when it reads like you want to wagon AI. I could get behind you being worried that an AI lynch would allow Atog to fade into the background, but you're clearly open to each being scum independently of the other, so your unvote and lack of vote don't really mesh for me in this context.
Could you do an in-detail review of why you think AI is scum, if you're more positive he's scum than you are of Atog? I'm more interested in your take on it than Azrael's.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Hmm. I'd call this null. I don't think the bit about "not necessarily the same alignment" says much.
Null. Directed at Hansanator for his Seps vote.
I liked this bit, until he threw in that barbed "Active lurking?" thing at the end. It was a good question, but why phrase it as a question if you're already presuming you know the answer? It's a break in his mindset - he's presenting himself as curious, when he's really just trying to level an accusation.
Slightly odd to phrase this as advice on what he should be doing, rather than using the answer to evaluate him.
This quote must be out of order, but it's disturbing no matter where you put it. Ignoring another player (something in that player's interactions caused a strong pain reaction), plus directing a vig-kill onto him. That's fairly drastic and probably anti-town in effect.
Going to be very important to try to track the motivation for this level of anger. *Goes back and checks*
Wait, what? No, this is in the correct order. What on earth provoked that response??
All that Hans said, was that the Gruul clan ability was interesting, and that he supported other gruul members coming out, in a manner that suggested he might be keeping his cards close to his chest. I have no idea why AI thinks that deserves ignoring him and an automatic vig kill.
Calls for a guild claim. Not certain if that's anti or pro town in effect. The point that the scum already probably know what each clan ability does is a good point. That hadn't occurred to me.
Had that occurred to anyone else?
This is fine.
First VLA notice.
A bit of wavering on Sepiriel that sounds very unconvincing. He calls both sides of the argument persuasive, qualifies his own opinion with "personally", and then "at this point" and "for now". That's a ton of weasel words. It seems very evident that he's not quite sure what his opinion on Sepiriel ought to be, and he's leaving a LOT of room open for him to manuever. Reads like a pretty classic scum indecisiveness tell. He doesn't know how he ought to be reading Sepiriel as a townie, and he wants the ability to knock him off at an opportune time.
And he's hella nervous and uncomfortable going on the record, hence all the qualifiers and weasel words.
VLA #2.
This is the Taredas quote AI was referencing above. There were a few other bits that briefly mentioned Sepiriel, but all of them supported the idea that sepiriel was town and shouldn't be killed.
First, AI barns the post where Taredas argues Seps is town. Then, inexplicably, he thinks that's a good reason to SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE IN THE NIGHT. What?!? Like, I feel like I have to be misrepping him here, and he's really referring to killing Hansantor in the night (not that that's much of an improvement), but even that doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense b/c Taredas also argues in the same post that Hansantor is also strongly likely to be town.
What's going on here?
Also, the bits where he questions activity didn't seem like he was terribly concerned. I exempted that somehow, but here it is:
Concern doesn't exactly seem to be the emotion foremost in his mindset.
This was the first post of AI's that caught my notice. He breaks into the same scum tell pattern from his first serious vote, on Sepiriel. He states that he sees valid reasons to either vote or not vote Vishamon, with lots of waffle words, he then switches over to some very charged, accusatory language "blood in the water".
These two mindsets don't mix well. You don't often have a townie with a genuine, waffle-y mindset who on the one hand says, ZDS' point that he's overzealous town could very well be right, but who then switches gears and starts throwing around phrases like "scum sensing blood in the water".
He also qualifies that read a couple more times with weasel words "I think", and "feels more like". You then have this completely artificial mixture of a strongly worded accusatory language, with the sentiment that...eh...'I think I feel he's not simply an overzealous townie, but ZDS does have a good point there'.
Furthermore, as Rhand pointed out, the timing of the vote was AFTER the Sepiriel wagon had begun to dissipate, not before. So if the argument is based on timing, it's not well-founded.
I also dislike the description of the Sepiriel vote as "very bad". It's a weakly worded version of what should be a more strongly worded sentiment. Like, the townie version of "very bad" is something like "pretty awful", or "really horrendous". There's some teeth to it, a sense that the player is genuinely appalled. "Very bad" is kind of a limp-wristed phrase that's meant to convey that you think there's something pretty awful about the post, but doesn't carry any actual conviction behind it.
Again, with calling the counter-arguments to his own viewpoint as reasonable! When every time you place a vote, you feel compelled to point out that the people who disagree with you have good reason to hold a completely opposite read, that's a very good sign that you think the position you're pushing is BS.
This is what sealed it for me. In addition to all those weasel words that he's been throwing around, he then sounds inexplicably certain that he knows what Vishamon was doing, based on "the confident tone of his post". I'm not convinced in the slightest.
Notice how often AI is parroting/buddying/endorsing other people's reasoning? This is about the 3rd or 4th time he's adopted or endorsed other people's ideas. Townies do that also, but the sheer number of times AI is doing it reads far more like it's an intentional effort to piggyback than a coincidental occurrence.
The threat of dying a painful death bit, and the "catch" in quotation marks, read like AI is getting a bit cranky under the surface, but is trying to tamp it down.
VLA #3.
Null.
I thought the question on the inconsistency was a pretty awfull weak line of inquiry.
I don't feel that my comment asking him to post 5-10 more times so I could make a better PBPA against him would be particularly insulting if he had a town alignment. I feel like a townie would blow that off and tell me how far wrong I was, probably challenge me to make the case.
That's not AI's reaction. One of the things I posted preceding this was that AI doesn't enjoy playing scum, and that he needed put out of his misery. I think I hit close to the mark on that, and AI wasn't really pleased that I put my finger exactly on that sensitive nerve, that I'm threatening to knock him out early on D1, and that I know it.
You can see that in other aspects of his posting later. He's started to adopt an attitude of defeatism, as if he knows that he's already done for, that his uncomfortable scum game has put him out of the running.
Subtext I'm getting here, is that he wants Atog gone quickly. Either as a mislynch or bus credit, I'm not sure either, but I agree that the desire to end the game quickly is a negative tell either way.
He's getting really cranky here, post-pressure. : /
The latter bit is awfully dismissive and derogatory of Atog's defense. Too quick and casual for my tastes.
Again, trying to rush along the atog wagon.
Boredom? I'm thinking that's more of a "waiting for the hammer to drop" emotion, than actual boredom. The game hasn't been boring (for anyone else) up till now.
Defeatism again.
Not particularly egregious.
Again, I think you can trace the "boredom" and disinterest back to my first naked vote on AI. That's the point at which he lost interest in the game, because he felt his time was over.
Summary-
AI's votes on Sepiriel and Vishamon were packed full of multiple scum tells. He mixes an underlying mindset of repeatedly endorsing the validity of the reasoning of the people who are town-reading his targets, mixes that with nervous, self-conscious qualifiers on his own reads, but then throws in some hyper-aggressive, overly-confident accusatory language to finish it off. That combination of traditional scum voting tells is pretty strongly indicative.
Together with that, you get the defeatism and boredom in response to the initial naked vote against him. Again, that's very much in keeping with AI's lack of confidence in his scum game.
There are also a few other very bizarre bits like the inexplicable calling for Hansantor to get vigged. I'm almost uncomfortable calling them scum tells because they're just so weird and hard to explain under either alignment for AI. Like, I feel like a scum AI would feel equally uncomfortable directing the vig because he's experienced enough to know how bad that is, having so little basis to do so this early in the day. But maybe not.
Would vote except that I'm a bloodthirsty Gruul player and that's not what we manly barbarians do: Asianinvasion.
No, I mean conviction. He hasn't tried to convince anyone of anything. He isn't arguing that anyone is scum, he's just saying it and then lobbing around softballs like post 158 instead of scumhunting. And considering I posted all of about 4 sentences in this game before my post further up the page, any scum read Rhand could have formed on me at this point is on some pretty shaky ground (someone... maybe Azrael?... already called him out for this).
My scum read on him developed from actually reading his posts. Today is the first day since this game started that I've actually had time to really sink into it. His interactions with Atog are shoddy... I mean, seriously, he was the first person to point out Atog's post that Taredas "caught"... and then he /barns Taredas when he votes Atog. What's that whole thing about scum forgetting their reads because they have to make them up as they go along?
I skipped the blah blah and went right to the good part.
If you think a single naked vote even made a blip on my radar, you have no idea how to read me. I'm not sure how considering the validity of points made by people who are town-reading people I'm voting makes me anything but someone trying to look at a situation from multiple angles.
There's no defeatism in any of my posts. If you're referring to the "lynch one of us" comment, that is not defeatism.
I also direct the vig in a majority of my games. I probably do it more as town, but I don't have data to support that.
You made us wait a whole day for that?
Yes. I'm surprised you wouldn't have thought it.
Here you are misreading or misrepping the post. Taredas wasn't saying that Sepiral shouldn't be lynched because he was Town. He was saying Sepiral shouldn't be lynched because he claimed Orzhov, i.e. "no reveal." AI apparently agreed with that, but thinks Orzhov should therefore be vigged. Which has it's own issues.
@dkings: I have been reading him as town because of 75 and 205. I also wrote down that 164 looked townie, but I'm not sure why any more.
75: I like the language he uses here. It's also one of the first notes anyone has against Atogaholic, which reads genuinely to me. His note on ZDS is null, but was something that aligned with what I read too.
205: While I'll admit I didn't catch his sling at you, I did follow his logic about overanalyzing smaller wagons. Upon further review, it doesn't really make him town, because that's something that could probably come from either alignment.
That said, 80 is horrible for the lynch line up, 91 reads like he might be annoyed that he can't wagon Porps, and I really don't like 169.
So, I guess that puts him back in territory.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Indeed.
Orzhov and anti-town in behavior, regardless of actual alignment. I'm a firm believer in using the vig to weed out distractions to the town. At no point did I suggest it is wise to gun down every Orzhov player.
What was the purpose of this post?
And that quote may be all you need to know to read AI this game. Bolding mine.
@AI:
1. Can you give me a town/scum list?
2. Please ask at least three different people one question each.
*shrugs* Your posting styled changed immediately after I latched onto you. Suddenly the game was no fun.
Ok.
Nice scum phrase, that. ++Dismissiveness.
More like, endorsing the validity of people who held the opposite read from you.
Then nervously dancing with waffle words to conjure up justification for a vote anyways, then over-selling it conspicuousy.
>"this game"
Implying I've never done anything like this in the past? Get real.
Not interested. Ask me again Day Two, I may have more ****s to give then.
You can't even come close to proving that, considering how long it was before I said I was bored.
Yeah, because that was weak sauce.
Because undermining my own reads is a smart thing to do as scum? What?
hansanator (1): Sepiriel
Vishamon (2): Azrael, AsianInvasion
Atogaholic (7): Taredas, Rhand, 7hawk77, Obzedat, Cythare, Scarbo, dkingsland967
Taredas (1): Atogaholic
AsianInvasion (2): Prophylaxis, Archmage Eternal
V/LA
Sepiriel: Until 3/13
Prod Watch
Tog: 2 days
hans: 2 days
KoolKoal: 3 days
KoolKoal will be prodded officially tomorrow morning. Tog and hans are in watch range, and have 24 hours to post before they receive a prod.
Others who have fewer posts than I do... post more. There's a few of you with 5 of fewer posts. Step it up please.
@zindbad: Congrats on the zindababy.
I'm having troubles sorting my thoughts in this game, joining a large game after a break while still in school makes for a slow boot-up process, apparently.
It doesn't help that we're somehow stalling so early in the day.
Anyway, I'm still happy to lynch either AI or togs. I feel like AI is the most likely scum out of the two very likely scum though.
A player whose only contributions so far are to attract an early wagon and then accuse everyone voting for him of being scum qualifies, wouldn't you say?
"most likely scum out of the two very likely scum"
You are going to need to do better than that.
What was there to respond to? AE is like a reverse jinn. He doesn't appear when his name is called; he appears when mine is.
No I didn't. I said it for two reasons: to draw attention to AI's immediate response to the reveal of the Gruul mechanic as "anti-town", and to see what reaction I could draw from him on said point. You jumping in was not conducive to reason #2 being effective.
Yes, do tell.
A: He didn't mean to post it twice. That's the point. That's why it's a slip - he was crafting the message, working out a different (less scummy? more faux-convicted?) way to say what he wanted to say. Then he forgot to erase what he actually wanted to say. It happens. The self-spin is indicative of a scum mindset though.
B: I meant to say Proph.
He's too experienced to be trying that on, D1 or not. And I wrote it because I hate self-meta and despair at the prevalence of its use on this site.
I don't think we're hiding anything the scum don't already know. It's going to come out anyway, and soon. The mechanics look to be pretty public one way or the other.
That's funny, I was thinking the same thing about this vote.
The answer to this question can be derived from information available in the thread. But even that reason notwithstanding, I'll vote when I'm good and ready.
I can't even decide if AE is scum or not. Attacking me is a null tell for him - he does it every game without fail. I'd be a little worried if he didn't open this game with an ill-defined accusation.
The previous three posts were all about Sepiriel and/or mechanics. Then a vote on snurfy based on...what? His lack of posts? His failure to respond to a question due to lack of posts? I hate when someone goes "oh we can't lynch this guy on D1 because we'd get no information from it." If he's worth a lynch, he's worth a lynch. As far as we know, that no-reveal thing may not ever go away. Are we going to leave him and the rest of the Orzhov alone forever?
So, actually, you have nothing. I wonder how many of your posts so far in this game include my name. I'd wager above 50%, probably closer to 75%.
I liked this. There was someone else who asked Azrael why he was voting now after making a fuss over Gruul not voting because of potential shenanigans with Bloodrush - I think that was Rhand. That was another good question.
Azrael's modus operandi is exactly what you have seen so far - to quietly and subtly try to set boundaries for the town, because the one who makes the rules has all the power. He's willing to let the rest of us be Ned Stark, or Robb, as you like it, and end up headless. He's either Varys or Littlefinger, depending on alignment. And neither one of those shadowy fellows thinks their own rules apply to them.
That's fantastic. Do you have anything to add?
I agree. It felt insincere and manipulative.
Answer the question. Why are you voting now after exhorting Gruul players not to vote?
It's not scummy, it's just a bad idea. In general I advocate, as Cyan termed it once, marching to the beat of your own drum. The opinions of the other players actually don't matter than much - when you're right, that kind of inexorable rightness you feel when you have somebody nailed, they'll know, and they'll follow.
I think you know better than that. We've played probably 20+ games together. I've never been replaced and I've never been particularly involved on D1. You acting like you don't know that is troubling.
Pot, kettle, black: Do you have anything other than mechanics speculation to contribute?
While I'm at it, though, here's my take on Ghost Council - I think it's a disguise for a player's votes. He PMs his votes to Meg who posts them as if Obzedat were voting. Either that, or he's a double-voter, and Obzedat votes the last person he voted (that's how I would do it. Like an afterimage voter.)
I don't think that the Orzhov are going to remain undefined forever. At some point we have to trust that Megiddo didn't make a quarter of the players permanent no-reveals, or this would just devolve into a guessing game. So if an Orzhov player is the scummiest now, I'd rather trust in the countermeasures that the host has probably built into the game to stop it from becoming Go Fish, and lynch that player, rather than giving them a pass until some unknown time at which point we might find ourselves facing a much worse situation and still being unsure about that player's alignment.
I really liked this post and dkingsland's tone.
I see no problem there. I've always separated anti-town behavior from role. I did see a problem with your PBPA, though, which read needlessly forced and tried to twist everything AI's said or done into being scummy somehow.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
C'mon, man. You're the highest poster in the thread and you're telling me you're not invested enough to comply with my requests?
KoolKoal:
1. Read the most recent 5 pages.
2. Ask at least three different people at least one question each.
3. Give us an idea of your reads based on the portion of the game you have read.
4. Start playing the game and post at a reasonable rate.
Don't give me this lazy bandwagon vote - we're starting to lose pace.
I find it really awkward that despite the pressure Az is mounting on AI, Az is still on the same wagon as him. I wouldn't cry if a Togs lynch happened Today, but I definitely want him to come back and answer our questions.
What specifically about this post do you like? It's got a lot going on, and your statement is vague.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Atog is next up to be PBPA'd.
Well, that's the first time anyone's compared me to Littlefinger. *grimace* I don't mind the Varys comparison quite so much, and I suspect you're wronging him in that characterization. Varys plays by his own rules, but he follows them.
Still, a shadow-lurker doesn't sound very much like me at all. Quiet? Subtle? Let the rest of the town lead the charge? Sitting quietly spinning webs in a back alley doesn't sound like me in the slightest. I think you'd strike closer to the mark if Daenerys and Varys had a child.
As for the charge of hypocrite...
Already answered, simple mistake.
That's some heavy hyperbole you're laying down there, sir. Half of his posts I read as null, and I straight out admitted that I needed clarification on what he meant calling for a vigilante, to avoid misrepping him.
Is your alignment coloring your read, or your personal dislike?
AI is going to flip scum. His voting rationales and the mannerisms of his defense are rife with classic scum mistakes. Even you pointed that out in your previous post - before seeing fit for some reason to argue with a PBPA that reached similar conclusions about his voting history.
Whether it's AI today, or whether someone like Atog should go first is yet to be determined. And who his buddies might be. But I don't expect to learn I'm wrong about my AI read. Do you?
@Az: So what's going to happen to your view of the gamestate if I die before you and you are proven wrong?
Same as always when I'm wrong, pick up the pieces and move on. My reads are seldom interconnected too heavily.
I need to do a good reread (I have tried to keep up with the page when i could spare time though, but its definitely not a solid reread).
Some points i want to note:
1) Regarding Hans, the more i think about it the more i consider the possibility he isn't scum, dont get me wrong I hate the way he went about everything but in a way it was similar to Rhand where by going through me he gets more insight on others, I just really dislike the vibe he gave when waffling his way through the wagon.
2) Sir Karn asking where i was is reasonable since the post itself reads as being time constrained and not enough time for a post, AI's post however reeks of opportunism, he clearly showed no such time constraints and a simple look at my last post would have shown him my V/LA notice.
3) I saw a couple of multiposts from hawk that really bothered me regarding his justifications for thinking me scum, it seemed too opportune without actually wanting to commit.
4) I want to /barn Az's case on AI, its well made, logical and it presents a clear picture and the way AI has replied to it seems kinda flaily to me.
5)I really want to laugh at zinda... i mean he is clearly suddenly giving me a lot of experience cred, and telling us that the self-meta defense is really weak and all that, but in the big ass post he just made he used self meta when responding to AI's post
Im just going to quote/paste the response since multiquoting is a pain:
6) I need to re-read Vishamon, i originally didn't like the vote + push but it had more to do with the wording used but i really need to do a reread to get a feel of what pinged for me then.
7)Regarding Lynching/Vigging Orzhov's, as Taredas mentioned neither action would result in any useful results, I leave it to the Vig if theres any to do as they please, im sure there MUST be some sort of mechanic to remove the servitude at which point a review of players may yield information, its a hypothetical and one we cannot even assume to be true this early on in the game but if the vig plans to play around with that probability then ok but we shouldn't limit our lynch information just because you dont like the play style being shown by a player so early in the game, its a waste of resources.
So for now:
/vote AI
++scum hawk
+scum zinda
If anyone has a good reason we shouldn't lynch it today, I'm totally open to hearing it. But so far all I've seen is "No that's not good idea- let's do it later or vig it" with no substantiating reasons. At first I thought it could be a hydra, but I don't have any reason to believe that. So convince me I'm wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Obzedat
Except your statement doesn't consider the possibility of the Obzedat being a mislynch to begin with.
Call me crazy for doing a bit of flavor-gaming but i would rather NOT lynch my guild patron.
I will concede that Lynching my Guild Patron Obzedat is better than a No-Lynch but that is not the point being discussed.
Reading proph interact with AI is like watching a dentist pull teeth.
Outdated Mafia Stats