@KJ: ZIonite was just reading more town to me. I can't really point to specifics, except for his defending of Snurfy. If I were scum this early, I would just ignore it completely, there was no reason to stick his neck out for a player, especially when it had no really support. If there was a real wagon on Snurfy, then maybe the argument could be made that a scum Zionite is trying to look good on a town Snurfy wagon, but meh...
Just out of curiosity, I decided to reread back on KJ. His question to Zionite about pre-planning a bus driver role seemed silly to me. Adding in the part about him looking for a scum tell on his pre-planing just seemed ridiculous as well. There are really only two town ways to play the role, and both are painstakingly obvious to anyone who has ever played mafia with a redirector role.
So, here is what I found on KJ:
This post is his first comment on the no-lynch strat. Reading between the lines would say he is against it, due to the odds of lyncing scum are higher, but I dislike the lack of a direct answer. 134 He is really hung up on the idea of no lynch, but it still not very committed to taking a side. He is fine chasing Rodemy for his calling Chris scum, but adds in some fluff, including an OoG motivation for myself for pushing this as a no-lynch.
103 I have never found this to be a relevant question, especially if the player in question isn't running like a chicken with its head cut off.
Quote from KJ »
I figured that was what you were doing. +town for that.
I couldn't find those stats, but I think personally that a no-lynch D1 with so little info probably doesn't benefit town as much as it would scum.
Coincidently, I can't find any stances on any players you've made this game. Or at least not many. So, +scum for that.
I find it amusing that you clearly know from the previous question I am probably one of the worst day 1 scum hunters, but am surprised when I take little initiative in finding scum. Also considering almost every single post you have made has been about my original plan, you have yet to take a stance on me.
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1). I am not smearing mud, I am merely saying there is a lot of stuff going on, and a lot of players missing in action. Even I admit I posting low, even for me. It doesn't mean a scum motivation, it just means I am not playing with a full deck, and would like to pick up the dropped cards.
2). Missed the question, but no, I don't think that role clears him. Him giving it to Christ, rather than a less experienced town looks better for him, but if I had a strong behavioral scum read on him, I would lynch him, regardless of the role.
3). I see that you clearly took a stance, and admit you may have just not posted it. I am willing to accept that, considering you sent the vibe anyway.
I ended up rereading KJ because I thought I caught a scum asking lazy questions to move on. After seeing his tone, his points to other players, and his calling out to Godat about the shifting town lists, I am feeling a lot better for KJ being town. The initial dislike I had about him focusing too hard on my claim, I am seeing it as more him using it as a springboard to scumhunt, so good on KJ.
I will take a look at Godat next.
@Note: These notes are raw, meaning I did not go back to change how I read the posts. I honestly thought in the first few, I was starting to read a scum KJ, and only after seeing recent posts did I re-evaluate my stance.
@Seppel, I'm talking about how you ignored everything I said to you after you voted me.
One point being wrong) you said I wasn't voting Zionite when I was
One point being something YOURE doing now) you haven't responded to anything I said to you after that post where you made a case against me. Also, the thing you said I ignored from you was sometbjngI didn't think I was supposed to respond to because it wasn't even a question or anything. What you're ignoring from me are posts that are obviously begging a response.
@Huntzilla, understood. The difference is this:
Situation A) a person ignores certain questions stealthily and/or for a hidden reason. This could be scummy. This is like when I pointed out that Chris ignored my many Cythare comments + told Cythare he was looking for a reaction (giving Cythare the opportunity to hone his response) + barns Cythare's replacement. This makes him look scummy because it builds a connection between him and the Cythare role.
Situation B) there is literally no reason for me to "ignore" the questions. Not responding to things in of itself is not scummy unless it is accompanied by complementing actions.
@Killjoy - another thing is that I'm posting on mobile, so I type things and the browser crashes or I just forget. You pointed out that I'm acting different in this game than others. Of course I am. The first game we were in together was my first game, ever. The second one was my second game, ever. In both of those games, I was called "useless". I'm trying to be less useless. I'm trying to actively investigate. If things don't take a promising lead, I start dismissing them. I will make an effort to stop doing that. I'm going to reread that post and answer things I haven't answered yet.
Alright,
I accept that answer.
Plus your answer to Killjoy seems genuine. I can appreciate wanting to try to be better at this, but not knowing what that looks like yet. So you are trying different methods.
I agree that's a pretty good reaction from Godot. Seems sincere in the suspicion of me, whereas I have caught scum a lot in my short time here by having them talking random nonsense. No that logic train makes sense over all. Glad I voted Godot, that was telling.
##unvote: Godot
##unvote: Godot
Hmm. I have a handful of town reads and no real scum reads at the moment. Might have to look back at some interactions.
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I agree that's a pretty good reaction from Godot. Seems sincere in the suspicion of me, whereas I have caught scum a lot in my short time here by having them talking random nonsense. No that logic train makes sense over all. Glad I voted Godot, that was telling.
##unvote: Godot
##unvote: Godot
Hmm. I have a handful of town reads and no real scum reads at the moment. Might have to look back at some interactions.
ISO Antny223 and tell me what you think.
I just did and I was not terribly impressed.
Reading Antny I think he is town. I like the way he presented his arguments and his reasoning for going after people appeared genuine to me.
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This is a list of people I am still willing to murder horribly today. Most of the people not on this list I think are somewhat town and in the case of Puddle he is going to resolve himself.
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Zionite is not freaking out about the case against him. I feel like a scum!Zion would be starting to flip out that the pressure is not letting off of him by now.
His assessment of the Imabus-man (pun intended) post to me is accurate. Ima came in and was loud, but got caught doing something he himself called scummy. The fact that Zio called this out right away seems +town for me.
The fact that Zio has NOT already pre-planned the use of his bus driver role is also +town for me. Pre-planning actions and night actions is scummy to me. Waiting for the day to evolve and deciding naturally once you have more information seems like the town mindset to me.
I am liking his tone a bit more, as it is more sincere and more natural.
If that's not a thing on this forum then that means
1) Not freaking out on a wagon could be personality driven, PR Role dependent, confidence that the wagon would dissolve because it was a ***** wagon(and it's starting to dissolve), player apathy, or learning from previous mistakes.
2) You've now acknowledged that what you thought happened didn't happen.
3) This doesn't make any sense to me. Are there players on this forum that read their role PM's day one and just say "I'm gonna use my cop/doctor/roleblocker on player #11"? Is that a thing on this forum? Even if that is a thing though, zionite doesn't have to be forthcoming. He could already know who he wants to use his abilities on and simply say he's not sure.
4) This seems ok.
The reasons you're town-reading zionite look contrived.
This is a list of people I am still willing to murder horribly today. Most of the people not on this list I think are somewhat town and in the case of Puddle he is going to resolve himself.
Could you elaborate on how you went from no real scum reads to willing to lynch 10/18 players in this game?
@killjoy, seppel& waiting for godot...
What are your thoughts on Sir Chris' willing to lynch list including 10/18 players after having no real scum reads?
Hm? Nothing changed. That's the list of people who I don't have an active reason not to lynch. Never heard of Process of Elimination style of playing? I employ it often. That's not my final answer or anything, just my current thoughts.
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If that's not a thing on this forum then that means
1) Not freaking out on a wagon could be personality driven, PR Role dependent, confidence that the wagon would dissolve because it was a ***** wagon(and it's starting to dissolve), player apathy, or learning from previous mistakes.
2) You've now acknowledged that what you thought happened didn't happen.
3) This doesn't make any sense to me. Are there players on this forum that read their role PM's day one and just say "I'm gonna use my cop/doctor/roleblocker on player #11"? Is that a thing on this forum? Even if that is a thing though, zionite doesn't have to be forthcoming. He could already know who he wants to use his abilities on and simply say he's not sure.
4) This seems ok.
The reasons you're town-reading zionite look contrived.
1) It could also be a stalled wagon on scum. Either is likely when you pick out of a hat. I would have expected a little bit of emotion, even from a scum trying to hide it.
2) Oh no, you misunderstood. What I thought happened, HAPPENED, I just agreed to not call it "scummy" so that you could sleep at night. You made a comment that looked hypocritical, I did not concede that point. You stated your reason was not scummy, you simply said one was "better," so I gave it a pass and said okay. Your comment does not cease to exist at that point, and my view of it does not change.
3) Killjoy asked him to hypothetically pick targets, so I gave my opinion on why I thought it was good he hadn't pre-planned actions. I think several players do think out their optimal lines of play, like Killjoy was talking about... you know what... go back and reread, I don't need to be spelling this all out for you.
4) Thanks Buddy!
The reason you are saying my read is contrived, looks awfully contrived. Is there some agenda you are trying to push forward, Ima-Bus-man?
KamikazeArchon - Town for an argument that's incredibly difficult to fake as scum
Sir Chris - Town for being the other part of that argument; I really want to find a ScumChris someday (and not be on his team)
Puddle Jumper - Town for his engaging posts
Killjoy - Town I think
Plowshares - town I think?
Huntzilla - He got mad at me but I forget if that was a towntell or not
Hunger - I haven't seen any behavior like Vagrant Story scumHunger. Then again, nobody's challenged him. He's just sort of been a voice in the distance.
Sepiriel - What? Sepiriel's in this game?
Rodemy - I really don't know
Cythare imabusinessman - I don't see why people hate this slot
Waitingforgodot - Time will tell
Snurfy8 - I don't like the part where he said that we needed better evidence before lynching him (or something to that effect)
Antny223 - Nothing memorable
The Cold Monarch - Hate this guy's posts
Bur - I think I remember wanting to lynch him for some reason
ITF - I remember his posts bugging me a lot, and I don't remember anything notable from him in the past week
Zionite - Probably still scum
I'm sure I can refine these quick reads, even if I just look back at my own posts to see notes I've made. Like I'm pretty sure I've forgotten someone I've called town for some reason.
I don't know why he's unmemorable but the way he went after Sepi earlier and his reasoning for how he viewed how interactions worked goes well for me. I didn't really remember it either but unmemorable and scum aren't the same thing. He needs to be more active but nothing he has posted made me think scum so far. Guys who talk about using interaction to find alignment are after my heart tbh.
The thing to consider with TCM is does he knowingly deviate from his usual game as scum to champion NL? Seems pretty risky, upon reflection. That'd be super weird.
Also why exactly have any of my posts been hard to fake? I feel as if I am capable of emulating my town play very well. Why are you so trusting after one spat after you saw the holy war I had with Generic, Seppel? Seems strange to trust me based off of what I've done so far given your experience with me.
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If that's not a thing on this forum then that means
1) Not freaking out on a wagon could be personality driven, PR Role dependent, confidence that the wagon would dissolve because it was a ***** wagon(and it's starting to dissolve), player apathy, or learning from previous mistakes.
2) You've now acknowledged that what you thought happened didn't happen.
3) This doesn't make any sense to me. Are there players on this forum that read their role PM's day one and just say "I'm gonna use my cop/doctor/roleblocker on player #11"? Is that a thing on this forum? Even if that is a thing though, zionite doesn't have to be forthcoming. He could already know who he wants to use his abilities on and simply say he's not sure.
4) This seems ok.
The reasons you're town-reading zionite look contrived.
1) It could also be a stalled wagon on scum. Either is likely when you pick out of a hat. I would have expected a little bit of emotion, even from a scum trying to hide it.
2) Oh no, you misunderstood. What I thought happened, HAPPENED, I just agreed to not call it "scummy" so that you could sleep at night. You made a comment that looked hypocritical, I did not concede that point. You stated your reason was not scummy, you simply said one was "better," so I gave it a pass and said okay. Your comment does not cease to exist at that point, and my view of it does not change.
3) Killjoy asked him to hypothetically pick targets, so I gave my opinion on why I thought it was good he hadn't pre-planned actions. I think several players do think out their optimal lines of play, like Killjoy was talking about... you know what... go back and reread, I don't need to be spelling this all out for you.
4) Thanks Buddy!
The reason you are saying my read is contrived, looks awfully contrived. Is there some agenda you are trying to push forward, Ima-Bus-man?
1. And I'm pointing out that there are a multitude of reasons for why someone would not show emotion when there's a wagon on them. Why are you expecting any emotion?
2. So you acknowledge I never called it scum but you're saying that I still called it scum? You agreed to call it not scummy because I called you out on it. Now it looks like you're trying to engage in subtle revisionist history.
3. And I still don't understand this. Do people on this forum pre-plan their actions before the day even starts? More specifically would you pre-plan your bus driver ability? I don't think anyone would.
Yeah, there is an agenda. I'm trying to figure out why your thought process is almost opposite to mine. I'm also concerned about your efforts at revisionist history.
I see, Seppel. I am glad that you seem to be very specific about this, it makes it easier. What specific posts, please quote them, made you go "Okay this is different, this is a town mindset." Specificity is the bane of scum, Seppel. Please show your work.
@ Business I don't think what you are seeking has to do with alignment. I just think it is a mafia philosophy difference at this point. I mean keep talking about it if you want I guess but uh i don't think pre-planning vs not is going to find us any scum.
I will say though Huntzilla you shouldn't say things you don't mean if you are town. You can get in trouble. Luckily I tend to think doing so blatantly for no good reason is probably a tgown tell.
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Actually Seppel nevermind, there can only be one series of posts you are referring to when you mention me and KA in the same breath. But if you have something besides that, by all means.
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Does anyone else get a bad vibe from Chris's list of "murder" targets? It reads to me as leaving behind a launching point or reference point for future wagons. Like "here are the guys I haven't said are Town-ish so I can support any wagon here without contradicting myself." Seems like something I would do as scum to prevent myself from being called on it later.
I am certainly nefarious enough to do that. I mean, you're on the list so who knows when I shall sneak up behind you my heart a flutter, only to slice your throat and put your animal carcass right into the gutter.
I actually sat back and looked at your post for a minute before I realized you must have had some prior misgivings to me, because that list is just a reorganized version of other people's lists. I was general, certainly, but I don't know why a list of names gives you such terror.
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Anyway I am reading back through the game and I am willing to call TCM a pretty fair town read upon reflection. It doesn't make sense to me that a smart scum player, and TCM appears intelligent enough, to deviate from expected behavior so radically. Behavior deviation to such a large degree speaks of confidence, and scum are hardly ever so confident. This read is dependent on TCM not getting smoked as scum recently, as that could lead to a behavioral shift in hopes of better results. Short of that I am comfortable with TCM.
Killjoy's post 31 'hello my fellow townies' makes me want to stone him. I mean, not really. But kind of really. You know what's amazing though? In post 49 he gets onto me for having a bit of a 'forced townie vibe' in my first post... when his opening post was literally 'hello my fellow townies'
Hello there Killjoy.
##vote:Killjoy
You just making up stuff to say at that point, I see.
ITF's early cheekiness is something I appreciate. A null tell, granted, but I appreciate it.
Rodemy's early vote on me, which I dismissed, makes it very clear he isn't reading the game very well. That could be important later on so I am noting it now. I am starting to think I was too merciful to Rodemy early on. He says he voted for me for giving a reason while he didn't vote TCM because TCM didn't give a reason. Made funny by the fact that I didn't actually give a reason for what he accused me of, mind you. His backpedal did feel genuine though.
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@Chris: I knowingly deviate, period, regardless of my role, which is why I hate meta. If I can change my style so easily, I imagine most players could if they chose to.
I put out a moderately sized post on why I was suspicious of KJ, but start reading him as town. What exactly convinced you of the opposite read? Was it really only on the mode of "hi town buddies"?
Scum pyschology: he, as scum, made a post that was basically 'hi I am town' and yet he thinks me doing the same thing is bad mojo. It's a subtle thing, but why would a townie who had just done something similar have any problem with me doing it? He's making up reasons to come after people. He's probably scum.
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I see, Seppel. I am glad that you seem to be very specific about this, it makes it easier. What specific posts, please quote them, made you go "Okay this is different, this is a town mindset." Specificity is the bane of scum, Seppel. Please show your work.
Actually Seppel nevermind, there can only be one series of posts you are referring to when you mention me and KA in the same breath. But if you have something besides that, by all means.
Does anyone else get a bad vibe from Chris's list of "murder" targets? It reads to me as leaving behind a launching point or reference point for future wagons. Like "here are the guys I haven't said are Town-ish so I can support any wagon here without contradicting myself." Seems like something I would do as scum to prevent myself from being called on it later.
Thanks for telling us how you act as scum. Now, if you're not scum, start typing stuff that's smart.
Killjoy's post 31 'hello my fellow townies' makes me want to stone him. I mean, not really. But kind of really. You know what's amazing though? In post 49 he gets onto me for having a bit of a 'forced townie vibe' in my first post... when his opening post was literally 'hello my fellow townies'
1. And I'm pointing out that there are a multitude of reasons for why someone would not show emotion when there's a wagon on them. Why are you expecting any emotion?
2. So you acknowledge I never called it scum but you're saying that I still called it scum? You agreed to call it not scummy because I called you out on it. Now it looks like you're trying to engage in subtle revisionist history.
3. And I still don't understand this. Do people on this forum pre-plan their actions before the day even starts? More specifically would you pre-plan your bus driver ability? I don't think anyone would.
Yeah, there is an agenda. I'm trying to figure out why your thought process is almost opposite to mine. I'm also concerned about your efforts at revisionist history.
Imab, please. pay. attention.
1) I expect normal townie folks, and even scum to show emotion about wagons being formed on them. Emotion sets us apart from robots. Emotion helps to show that you are naturally answering questions, versus writing and rewriting them seventeen times before posting, which to me me would be a sure sign of scum. Emotion would help make a little sense of what's going on. That's why I expect emotion. But there wasn't any against his wagon, which can be a scum tell, or can be confidence, like you had mentioned. It all equates to null, I just look for emotion, that is all.
2) I NEVER said YOU called it scummy. This particular point is getting irritating. Please go and reread what I have posted, but only after you have read what YOU have posted. I agreed to not call your hypocrisy scummy, yes. That does not mean that what you said goes away, or looks less foolish. I just agreed to not call it scummy. What exactly am I trying to change?
3) I am on your side on this one, I do not believe most people do. I think Killjoy was searching for clues. I do even know HOW you would be able to pre-plan your action, as you would need to figure out at least who MIGHT have a switch worthy role.
I apologize we are not seeing eye to eye. I am not changing my stance on that post though. You said it wasn't scummy. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and agreed ot not call it scummy. That simple.
Godot's post puts a few things into perspective. Her play has always appeared to be taking the game more serious, which I couldn't really figure out a town reason for considering she's been town in every finished game I've seen her in and didn't do that... but trying not to be useless does justify that.
I still dislike some of the questions she's asked, and how she's kinda justified some of the things she said... but she's getting moved to Null while I read her more. Unvote
@KJ: ZIonite was just reading more town to me. I can't really point to specifics, except for his defending of Snurfy. If I were scum this early, I would just ignore it completely, there was no reason to stick his neck out for a player, especially when it had no really support. If there was a real wagon on Snurfy, then maybe the argument could be made that a scum Zionite is trying to look good on a town Snurfy wagon, but meh...
If you were scum you would just ignore it? WIFOM. Also self-meta.
Just out of curiosity, I decided to reread back on KJ. His question to Zionite about pre-planning a bus driver role seemed silly to me. Adding in the part about him looking for a scum tell on his pre-planing just seemed ridiculous as well. There are really only two town ways to play the role, and both are painstakingly obvious to anyone who has ever played mafia with a redirector role.
Maybe that's just how I do things then. I actually came up with a plan rather quickly after hearing his role. It just makes no sense that he would put no thought about how he would use his role to me.
So, here is what I found on KJ:
[snip]
[quote=KJ]I figured that was what you were doing. +town for that.
I couldn't find those stats, but I think personally that a no-lynch D1 with so little info probably doesn't benefit town as much as it would scum.
Coincidently, I can't find any stances on any players you've made this game. Or at least not many. So, +scum for that.
I find it amusing that you clearly know from the previous question I am probably one of the worst day 1 scum hunters, but am surprised when I take little initiative in finding scum. Also considering almost every single post you have made has been about my original plan, you have yet to take a stance on me.
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1). I am not smearing mud, I am merely saying there is a lot of stuff going on, and a lot of players missing in action. Even I admit I posting low, even for me. It doesn't mean a scum motivation, it just means I am not playing with a full deck, and would like to pick up the dropped cards.
2). Missed the question, but no, I don't think that role clears him. Him giving it to Christ, rather than a less experienced town looks better for him, but if I had a strong behavioral scum read on him, I would lynch him, regardless of the role.
3). I see that you clearly took a stance, and admit you may have just not posted it. I am willing to accept that, considering you sent the vibe anyway.
I'm not accusing you of not finding scum, I'm accusing you of not taking stances. Before I pointed it out, you'd not even attributed anything anyone did to a town mindset. I have trouble believing that you had no opinions up to that point.
And, you absoultely were smearing mud. In response to "you have no stances this game" you replied with "Well, Bur, Kami and ITF have low post counts!" which has nothing to do with your lack of stances. All it does it make those three look bad.
This is a list of people I am still willing to murder horribly today. Most of the people not on this list I think are somewhat town and in the case of Puddle he is going to resolve himself.
? (Also, just noticed IBM noticed that too. +town to him)
Quote from IBM »
@killjoy, seppel& waiting for godot...
What are your thoughts on Sir Chris' willing to lynch list including 10/18 players after having no real scum reads?
I hate it. He claims it's PoE, but it's really not. I don't so much mind the whole "let's not lynch anyone not on this list", because that's a perfectly viable mindset. He thinks they're town.
But the reverse of it, wanting to lynch everyone on this list is bad. There are still town on that list. At least half that list is probably town. He even admitted he didn't have any scum reads, but he's ok with lynching all those people despite not having scum reads on any of them.
Does anyone else get a bad vibe from Chris's list of "murder" targets? It reads to me as leaving behind a launching point or reference point for future wagons. Like "here are the guys I haven't said are Town-ish so I can support any wagon here without contradicting myself." Seems like something I would do as scum to prevent myself from being called on it later.
He's used that verbiage enough that it doesn't bother me.
Killjoy's post 31 'hello my fellow townies' makes me want to stone him. I mean, not really. But kind of really. You know what's amazing though? In post 49 he gets onto me for having a bit of a 'forced townie vibe' in my first post... when his opening post was literally 'hello my fellow townies'
Hello there Killjoy.
##vote:Killjoy
You just making up stuff to say at that point, I see.
lol what? My 31 was RVS. It's very obviously exagerated and hyperbolic. And my 49 is referencing this post:
Okay so in my ASTUTE OBSERVATION of all things this forum (ie games I have been in) I've noticed towns kind of suck at finding scum day one so let's just do the opposite of what we normally do and start off on the right track!
Also random votes suck let's not bother.
where you say the bolded. It's subtle. But it's there. The 'we' is obviously referencing you saying you're town without being obvious about it. But it's forced because you didn't need to say that second half of the sentence.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
If you noticed someone mention that then you should have noticed my answer, Killjoy. Tsk tsk.
Also by that measure everything I said is 'not required.'
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Also I admit I find it a bit odd that something 'very subtle' can be 'forced.'
Also for those following along WITH THE HOME GAME I didn't even really mean to be inclusive in that statement, that's just how I phrase things. So subtle even I didn't think about it much, I was just using your opinion of it as the constant rather than how I viewed it. Subtly forced, apparently. That's a really weird thing to say. Kind of like how people like to say I distance myself when I don't.
I don't like you right now Killjoy. I mean I think you are scum, I am sure you're a wonderful person.
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1. And I'm pointing out that there are a multitude of reasons for why someone would not show emotion when there's a wagon on them. Why are you expecting any emotion?
2. So you acknowledge I never called it scum but you're saying that I still called it scum? You agreed to call it not scummy because I called you out on it. Now it looks like you're trying to engage in subtle revisionist history.
3. And I still don't understand this. Do people on this forum pre-plan their actions before the day even starts? More specifically would you pre-plan your bus driver ability? I don't think anyone would.
Yeah, there is an agenda. I'm trying to figure out why your thought process is almost opposite to mine. I'm also concerned about your efforts at revisionist history.
Imab, please. pay. attention.
1) I expect normal townie folks, and even scum to show emotion about wagons being formed on them. Emotion sets us apart from robots. Emotion helps to show that you are naturally answering questions, versus writing and rewriting them seventeen times before posting, which to me me would be a sure sign of scum. Emotion would help make a little sense of what's going on. That's why I expect emotion. But there wasn't any against his wagon, which can be a scum tell, or can be confidence, like you had mentioned. It all equates to null, I just look for emotion, that is all.
His assessment of the Imabus-man (pun intended) post to me is accurate. Ima came in and was loud, but got caught doing something he himself called scummy. The fact that Zio called this out right away seems +town for me.
This particular point is getting irritating. Please go and reread what I have posted, but only after you have read what YOU have posted. I agreed to not call your hypocrisy scummy, yes. That does not mean that what you said goes away, or looks less foolish. I just agreed to not call it scummy. What exactly am I trying to change?
3) I am on your side on this one, I do not believe most people do. I think Killjoy was searching for clues. I do even know HOW you would be able to pre-plan your action, as you would need to figure out at least who MIGHT have a switch worthy role.
I apologize we are not seeing eye to eye. I am not changing my stance on that post though. You said it wasn't scummy. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and agreed ot not call it scummy. That simple.
1) You look at it as null, but it's one of the reasons you're townreading zionite.
2) I don't consider @everyone voting zionite to be the same as @town. Just because you call something hypocritical doesn't make it so. I went over this in a rather large paragraph. That either you didn't read or did read and are pretending you didn't. And yes, you did call it scummy because you thought I called it scummy. Then when it turned out that I didn't call it scummy, only less effective, you changed your tune. You've already changed your stance on the post (whether I called something scummy or not).
His assessment of the Imabus-man (pun intended) post to me is accurate. Ima came in and was loud, but got caught doing something he himself called scummy. The fact that Zio called this out right away seems +town for me.
I didn't imply anything was scummy. I explicitly stated that one is better than the other. I did not use subtle language. It looks like your taking something I never said and are claiming that I said it.
Am I to understand that you think questions directed @everyone voting zionite is the same as @the entire town in general?
I took it to mean that the former was scummy versus the latter being townie. But I see now you simply meant it was "better." I will refrain from using the "scummy" language since you were not stating that at all.
I didn't call sending a generic message to the entire town scummy because I don't think it is: never have never will. If I think something is scummy it's not like I'm going to hesitate to say so and I would have pressured the relevant parties about it, not fling subtle suspicion at huge swaths of players. For your assessment to be true you would have to believe that I call people scum in subtle ways.
3) You don't think most people would pre-plan their actions but you're townreading zionite for something most people would do?
If I think something is scummy I'll say so in a way that looks something like this: based on your responses to me, it's clear at this point that this is not a simple misunderstanding. You're attempting to engage in manipulation+your contrived reason for that zionite townread.
vote: Huntzilla
I wouldn't be surprised if Hunt and Zio are scum together. Hunt's townread of zionite is flimsy.
Scumreads:
Huntzilla
Hunger...vote parking while being on the largest wagon and being active in other areas.
plowshares...sitting on the wagon without pushing it.
I'd be willing to lynch but I'm not sure they're scum...
Sir Chris...going from no scumreads to willing to lynch 10/18 players is gross BUT outside chance it's a playstyle difference
Bur...he's posting in other areas and not here.
zionite...he could be the scum and was getting bussed.
You say that about me but I have already noted nothing changed from point A to point B. There was no 'going from' wth.
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1) You look at it as null, but it's one of the reasons you're townreading zionite.
2) I don't consider @everyone voting zionite to be the same as @town. Just because you call something hypocritical doesn't make it so. I went over this in a rather large paragraph. That either you didn't read or did read and are pretending you didn't. And yes, you did call it scummy because you thought I called it scummy. Then when it turned out that I didn't call it scummy, only less effective, you changed your tune. You've already changed your stance on the post (whether I called something scummy or not).
His assessment of the Imabus-man (pun intended) post to me is accurate. Ima came in and was loud, but got caught doing something he himself called scummy.
I didn't imply anything was scummy. I explicitly stated that one is better than the other. I did not use subtle language. It looks like your taking something I never said and are claiming that I said it.
Am I to understand that you think questions directed @everyone voting zionite is the same as @the entire town in general?
I took it to mean that the former was scummy versus the latter being townie. But I see now you simply meant it was "better." I will refrain from using the "scummy" language since you were not stating that at all.
I didn't call sending a generic message to the entire town scummy because I don't think it is: never have never will. If I think something is scummy it's not like I'm going to hesitate to say so and I would have pressured the relevant parties about it, not fling subtle suspicion at huge swaths of players. For your assessment to be true you would have to believe that I call people scum in subtle ways.
3) You don't think most people would pre-plan their actions but you're townreading zionite for something most people would do?
If I think something is scummy I'll say so in a way that looks something like this: based on your responses to me, it's clear at this point that this is not a simple misunderstanding. You're attempting to engage in manipulation+your contrived reason for that zionite townread.
vote: Huntzilla
I wouldn't be surprised if Hunt and Zio are scum together. Hunt's townread of zionite is flimsy.
Scumreads:
Huntzilla
Hunger...vote parking while being on the largest wagon and being active in other areas.
plowshares...sitting on the wagon without pushing it.
I'd be willing to lynch but I'm not sure they're scum...
Sir Chris...going from no scumreads to willing to lynch 10/18 players is gross BUT outside chance it's a playstyle difference
Bur...he's posting in other areas and not here.
zionite...he could be the scum and was getting bussed.
I stand corrected. I stated you were thinking it was scummy BEFORE you clarified it with the "better" comment. I apologize for that misrep, as I had truly forgotten about that. (See first big red quote for this one)
As for "changing my tune," that is exactly what you were asking me to do, at least in my mind. You were upset I thought you were stating it was scummy, when you hadn't stated that. So I agreed to drop it, and not use the "scummy" language to refer to it. (See the second big red quote for these points)
Well thank you for elaborating on what you do, Imab. I do not see manipulation in my actions. I did forget about the beginning of the fight, which I regret, but there is no scum motivation here. If I were scum Imab, why would I leave your continued pushing against me alone? I let you have your little spat and have not pushed you at all.
But, since you are going down this road, I think your reads are junk. I think you are picking on low hanging fruit, trying to warp simple conversation into some kind of scum case. You really shouldn't be calling people scum because they are in other threads being active. You do not know the circumstances of their situation or the intensity of those games. That is a ridiculous "tell" and does not actually hold water here. Being unsure of reads on day one is not abnormal for some folks here. Others convey certainty from the moment they post their RVS vote. Being uncertain on day one is not a freaking scum tell, despite what the old timers here might tell you.
Bottom line is this though. I think you are just pissed off because of your dumb hypocritical statement that got called out on, and you are doing your best to save face.
Have you read the whole game yet Imab? Your reads suggest you have not. You mention NOTHING about the early game. I would appreciate you actually catching up in the thread before responding again.
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
I'm going back to just reading a page and making a post and seeing if anythings pops out. I got to 7 last time so let's see if I can do 17 (******* hell) pages or so. You can all take a sweeps on how many pages I get through before get bored and do something else and not look at this thread for another week.
Page 8 was forgettable. Not one person produced something I want to quote. If you posted on page 8 (and are not me) then you suck.
Page 9 - I find Godot lying about his role interesting. I've falseclaimed vt as scum and I'm not sure town would need to falseclaim like this. Also I don't see how someone could 'miss' a PR on their role PM.
1. Plowshares - Leaning Town on him SO FAR.
2. The Cold Monarch - SO FAR getting the normal TCM vibe from him.
6. Sepiriel- Sepi seems town SO FAR. [...] Cythare does not like though... HMM...
7. KamikazeArchon - Kami is quiet. Again. Nothing here YET
12. Zionite- Blind vote of me and then quickly off another direction (Rodemy). SEE WHERE THAT ALL GOES...
17. Snurfy8- Few pressured votes, did not fold under them. Seems ok FOR NOW.
18. Hunger - Good SO FAR. Nothing major.
ONE OR TWO RESPONSES LIKE "SO FAR" IN A T/S LIST ISN'T SCUMTASTIC.
ONCE YOU HIT THREE, THINGS GET REALLY QUESTIONABLE.
ONCE YOU HIT SEVEN
OH LORD
Good looking out Seppel, I didn't even notice at first. Yes this is a pretty common tell, and it's better than what I'm going on now. I think one of either huntzilla or rodemy are scum. I'm just not sure which. Pressure is needed here.
That's because it's a bologna argument Godot. Seppel is just throwing mud around trying to make himself look busy like he is "scumhunting" but instead he is just nitpicking on theory. That isn't scumhunting, that's distracting townies. It is the same bull**** we will be dealing with when it comes to Seppel forever.
Read the lines before and after the T/S list again and you will see why my reads are where they are. It's too early for me to be definitive. Except Seppel is jumping quickly up to the top of my list.
Kind of hand waving this away here, don't you think? Why are you surprised when questioned about a known scum tell?
Town should not be that confident this early, unless there has been some HUGE slip by the scum team. Everyone has been posting, but not a lot has been done this game at all. For you to try and force a mislynch on me based off of a T/S list is freaking laughable Seppel. Your pseudopsychology about everyone wanting to be correct all the time is ridiculous, but at least I can somewhat agree with it. We are playing a game, and we want to be right in catching scum, but there should still be caution in our voices at this stage, as we are just getting started. You on the other hand are trying to sound OVERLY confident that you have found something lynchable, which is not the case. I think you are simply forcing this far too much, it is a stretch at best. Unvote
Vote Seppel
By itself, using uncertain language in a T/S list isn't a criminal offense. But reacting to it with OMGUS is even worse. If Seppel's argument is such garbage, and his forcing to lynch you so immense, why aren't you presenting a real defense? Or even having real targets and priorities? It seems like you're not interested in scum hunting and just looking to survive.
You're at like, 3 or 4 votes. The bare minimum to be called a wagon. And you're flailing like mad caught scum and focusing on only one person. This person is using actual evidence (used many times before) to justify a vote on you, and instead of acknowledging real evidence, you assume it is a scum tell? I don't think so.
I am a bit ticked off that Seppel of all people would pull a stunt like this. It is ballsy and stupid, and I didn't think Seppel was stupid. I agree though, he has me a bit on tilt because I am so irritated by his line of play. I get he does gambits day one, but trying to lynch someone off a T/S list on day one is a bit over the top, and really just going to end badly. No one wins in this situation. It distracts from actual analysis, and lures the feeble minded into his web of deceit.
Your rhetoric isn't fooling anyone. You're not proving how Seppel is scum, only making yourself look worse. How is Seppel pulling a stunt by scumhunting? I could see this reaction from Seppel firing a vig shot on Night 0 or something, but not from placing ONE vote on you. The only way "no one wins in this situation" is if you're town, and you're doing a poor job of looking town.
Yes it's a scum tell. From Seppel. Out of the players here, I would expect him to understand my play more than anyone. He is deliberately misrepping my style to everyone, by posting bull T/S lists from other games, but notice he didn't ever post any of mine. He is going out of his way to try and force a wagon on me, based on this T/S list, for something that you consider a "known scum tell." There are others that feel it is not a tell at all. Seppel is not scumhunting. He has not made a single stroke towards searching for scum. He simply nitpicked on a posting style at an inopportune moment in the game for me. I am not going to bother with self meta or any of that, because I don't necessarily put a lot of stock in it. But Seppel is just trying to get me killed for a petty reason that I am starting to think isn't about this game at all. I assure you I am not scum. Seppel KNOWS that I am not scum, and is trying to get me killed for it. That's why I voted him. He is acting, to me, as if he knows I am town, and he wants me gone.
This real evidence bit you are talking about makes me laugh. To post a poor reaction to a T/S list and then a bunch of other T/S lists equals "real evidence" to you? I was guessing you were experienced, so for you to buy into that line of thinking makes you look bad to me as well.
Lastly, I don't believe an OMGUS response is a bad thing. Seppel has truly made me mad.
This would sound more genuine if backed up by a vote. I didn't like Seppel's attack either but the way your worried by your vote being perceived as OMGUS makes me suspect you a litte. And Seppel going after a scumbuddy like this is right out his playbook.
2) SCUM TEND TO REFERENCE THEIR SCUM GAMES RATHER THAN THEIR TOWN GAMES
CASE DOUBLE CLOSED
AND WHAT IS UP WITH THIS HUNTZILLA GUY
MORE LIKE ****ZILLA AM I RIGHT
HE GIVES NEARLY NO READS (SCUM BEHAVIOR)
THEN RODEMY CALLS HIM OUT ON IT
AND ZILLA IS LIKE "HEY HEY DON'T LYNCH ME HERE'S MY READS"
FIRST OFF, LYNCH THAT ON SIGHT
UNVOTE, VOTE HUNTZILLA
SECONDLY, I'MMA BOLD SOME GARBAGE
1. Plowshares - Leaning Town on him SO FAR.
2. The Cold Monarch - SO FAR getting the normal TCM vibe from him.
6. Sepiriel- Sepi seems town SO FAR. [...] Cythare does not like though... HMM...
7. KamikazeArchon - Kami is quiet. Again. Nothing here YET
12. Zionite- Blind vote of me and then quickly off another direction (Rodemy). SEE WHERE THAT ALL GOES...
17. Snurfy8- Few pressured votes, did not fold under them. Seems ok FOR NOW.
18. Hunger - Good SO FAR. Nothing major.
ONE OR TWO RESPONSES LIKE "SO FAR" IN A T/S LIST ISN'T SCUMTASTIC.
ONCE YOU HIT THREE, THINGS GET REALLY QUESTIONABLE.
ONCE YOU HIT SEVEN
OH LORD
This. There was something about his list that I couldn't put my finger on, but this made it click It's a combination of all of the "so far, etc" combined with the need to note something about every player. It provides a lot of fluff without committing to much.
I want to like Seppel's argument about Huntzilla's word choice of "so far" to be scummy, but I just looked through the only game I've been in that's over - Iji Mafia 2 - and the scum who posted T/S lists did not use "so far". I even noticed that some townspeople used similar phrases. However, I think it is far more likely that town will post more confident t/s lists because they know they are not lying. They could be wrong, but they aren't lying. Mafia would try to use excuses in their lists such as "so far" so they don't have to tie themselves to an argument that isn't well-received. That's just my theory, anyway.
I'm also going to be wary of anybody who says they like me tbh because Killjoy made an entire T/S list in Iji Mafia 2 where basically "suspecting Godot" was a con for everybody who suspected me, and he was mafia. Buddying up to obv-town is like a beard.
That's because it's a bologna argument Godot. Seppel is just throwing mud around trying to make himself look busy like he is "scumhunting" but instead he is just nitpicking on theory. That isn't scumhunting, that's distracting townies. It is the same bull**** we will be dealing with when it comes to Seppel forever.
Read the lines before and after the T/S list again and you will see why my reads are where they are. It's too early for me to be definitive. Except Seppel is jumping quickly up to the top of my list.
Your reads are all jumbled up and include lots of fencesitting instead of just being unsure.
Unvote
Vote Huntzilla
Opportunistic vote on Hunt...check. I still think Cythare is scum. Forget what I said about Hunt before, there's too many people I dislike on his wagon for him to be scum at this point.
@Seppel - So, you believe that as scum, I openly coached Huntzilla, who you also think is scum and is under pressure currently, and I thought that it was a good play to stick my neck out there in this obvious manner clearly linking us together just to try and dissuade him from voting you? Man, that is a pretty big blow to my ego if you think that's how awful of a player I am.
Eh, we'll find out when you flip!
Since there doesn't seem to be any sign of a Hunger wagon, this is a great way to put off a difficult argument until some point later in the game.
Alright, sorry I have been out of commission, here is what I got:
Quote from Godat »
I think the biggest pro would actually be that the mafia gets a head start on killing off non-mafia.
I can't actually tell if you are trying to twist me into a mafia mindset, or actually just that obtuse.
Really, because I think he might have hit the nail on the head.
Quote from KJ »
@TCM: Does it have to do with a specific piece of public information?
That is definitely a large part of it. I was hoping someone would slip when I left it out, since it didn't seem obvious everyone read that, or I would assume more people might have been open to a day 1 no-lynch...
Can you just elaborate on your plan, because at this point I can't think of any townie reason why you would have proposed a no lynch.
Quote from ITF »
Most setups are designed so that town is more powerful during the day, scum are more powerful during the night. No-lynch is only favorable to the town in open setups or near the end of the game, when the town knows they aren't losing a lynch opportunity (or the town has enough power that another night phase is beneficial to them).
Our set-up is sort of open. We can at bare minimum assume there are at least 1/2 investigative roles. Even if they end up targeting other PRs, having a confirmed townie without revealing their roles is huge. I wouldn't doubt that there are at least a few triggered roles as well, meaning mafia could perhaps trigger a trap (I suppose townies could too, but that would be the case anyway, unless that player was revealed.
This is all based on a lot of assumptions, which seems to all tie to the same thing - you're saying that a town is going to make better use of it's night actions than scum. That is not always the case, even when the town has a lot of power. For all you know (if you are town) most of the roles can be little more than glorified vt.
So people complain about me not posting and not a single person has even mentioned my question to everyone from my previous post. I'm heading out of the country later today and won't be back until next Tuesday. I'd like to see everyone have at least referenced what I said in 2. of my last post when I am back. Any time I have left today is going to my other game.
Zionite: opportunistic vote (maybe?) on Huntzilla (tiny scum this early), immediate unvote after he defends (scummish), then makes opportunistic vote on Rodemy (scummish). Throws some criticism but no suspicion at snurfy (possible extra knowledge? scummy). Makes filler argument against NL plan. Defends TCM (hard to decide how scummy at the moment, given the timing). Throws more criticism but no suspicion on Sepiriel (noticeable pattern now, scummy). Maintains vote on Rodemy even after the wagon is thoroughly dead, without ever offering one ounce of actual opinion on him other than saying "Good point" once (scummish). Then he does exactly the same thing to move his vote back to Huntzilla (scum). Does actually interact with Hunt this time, though, although most of it is specifically to defend Seppel (more acting like he has outside knowledge, gets scummier every time).
A big point against Zionite I see is that he has displayed exactly zero uncertainty or openmindedness. He feels very comfortable defending certain people and very comfortable voting certain people. All of his interactions seem like he's trying to extract specific reactions from people, rather than trying to learn how they'll react. There's also the fact that there's nothing in his posts which would be unlikely for a scum to say, which isn't true of many players in this game by this point.
There's a big difference between displaying uncertainty and having it. I haven't had much to go on yet, but that'll change as the game goes on and we see better patterns. My (first) vote on Huntzilla was to garner a reaction since I wasn't really feeling the arguments at the time. I read it as very town, and backed off for Rodemy because of better evidence. Once Seppel started making Huntzilla implode, that was a more worthwhile discussion.
What's the case for snurfy? Or TCM? I don't see your point here; there's no evidence or votes on them.
@Cythare: If i recall correctly you had me as scummier than Anty yet voted him because of how he phrased things when engaging me, considering you unvoted and moved to Huntz, what happened to the read you had of me?
I've liked your posts since then and you've trended upwards into leaning town.
Based on recent events, I'm going to Unvote Huntzilla and V/LA for a few days to cool off. I'll answer anything else outstanding when I get back.
This sort of retreat is so scummy it hurts.
I also don't like Seppel calling for a modkill after the dust has settled. Seems unnecessary. Would town!Seppel do this?
That's true that probability-wise it's more likely a town role, but he's been very anti-town in his play. How do we know the item didn't have something to do with it again?
If you were reading you'd know PJ claimed to received the item. And unless SC, PJ and Hunt are all scum together pulling off what looks to be a fairly extraordinary gambit this is not what happened. I think Zion is too keen to discredit Hunt here.
I'd be willing to table Huntzilla until another day to use the extra vote, but with a vote granting ability on scum it's going to get more and more dangerous as the days go by. I don't see a better case at the moment, yet still people are hesitant to vote Huntzilla. It's still early in the day, so maybe more intriguing things will happen before deadlines start rolling. But right now Huntzilla is my pick.
And this is all over the place.
I'm giving Sir Chris +town points. Something about his tone in the back and forth with Huntzilla was very non-threatening, and I liked how he handled voting Cythare, although it's not yet enough evidence to convince me it's a better lynch than Huntzilla. Won't be voting Chris today unless something changes, although pressure on Cythare might happen if more compelling evidence than "sneakiness" comes out of the discourse with him.
Welp, it appears Huntzilla is cleared for the moment.
So what do we do now? No lynch? Lynch Zionite? Cythare?
I really don't like this post. Yes, hunt is likely town. But that last part - there's no interest in solving things himself.
Seppel, are you honey badger?
First post from Kami for ages. His posting rate is worse than mine (and that's saying something) and all we get is brief comment and pointless question.
[quote from="Zionite »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/596878-animal-mafia-day-1-welcome-to-finchtopia?comment=320"]
Also, the phrasing of the last sentence screams scum language to me:
- "Won't be voting Chris today unless something changes," is just setting up an out to back out of his strong Chris town read.
- "although pressure on Cythare..." is taking a fencesitting stance on Cythare, but shows no interest in working it out himself.
You know I am voting Huntzilla for this very same thing, language. Shouldn't you be joining me?
The difference that you might be missing is that I'm not fence-sitting on the issues. Chris reads town to me. I'm not backing out of it unless he pops in waving his hands "I'M SCUM I'M SCUM" then jumps in a pool. That's what "something changes" means to me; you can't just declare someone town day 1 then ignore them forever. There has to be SOMETHING that could change your mind, otherwise you're doomed to fail. I could be totally wrong and should prepare for that, but I don't think that's the case.
For Cythare, I'm not interested in pursuing the case myself, right. That's because Huntzilla is the better lynch. He's flailing all over the place. I don't know why no one sees it.
So I think this is a scum post, except that PJ also calls both zionite and snurfy scum, and I didn't like PJ either. So my read on at least one of those is wrong. Of the three, snurfy is definitely the scummiest so my vote is fine, but I need to figure out the other two.
SEPPEL
ARE YOU HONEY BADGER
Same as before, Arch quotes one thing, makes a small point and that's it. Good way to stay in the background.
Why are you voting Cythare? At first I thought it was for a reaction, but nobody is reacting to it, so........ do you have a reason, or are you going to drop it, or whaddup?
Hold up, weren't you calling for a Cythare wagon a couple of pages back?
Reasoning: He's scum. Still holding onto a vote after the player in question is confirmed to have given someone else the power to double-vote? How in the hell is that EVER going to be a scum power?
All of townread on Plowshares just evaporated.
Skipping over KJ big post. Mostly because he didn't mention me and I've got enough people in my lynchable pile to put KJ off for now.
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
I don't like this post. "Just weird", "isn't the X I'm used to" are weaker statements of, and Seppel has been honeybadgering all game. The tone shift doesn't make sense.
Antny is basically spamming the thread. There's no way for this approach to be useful for town, and I think he's just trying too hard to be seen making effort. I am willing to vote him. However, I think the Zionite wagon is dissolving too rapidly and I want everyone to take another look at that. I'm also going to review the reasons for people dropping off the wagon.
Basically, by asking "Who else wants to vote Cythare?" I was hoping to accomplish the same thing that simply placing a vote on Cythare would (i.e. elicit scum reactions) without having to vote Cythare because I personally don't feel I have any reason to suspect him.
What did you expect scum to do exactly? More specifically what did you expect to see scum do that town wouldn't?
Cythare was the host for the other game Hunt was in, which might have something to do with it. Or it could have been RL related. Don't think he would say he needs to cool off if the reason he needed to cool off was a scum reason; that just doesn't make sense.
For the latter: when one is frustrated, it's pretty hard to self-analyze that frustration and make dispassionate decisions about it. Emotion is a common way for scum to get tripped up and make mistakes.
For the former, though - that is actually a good explanation. I hadn't put two and two together there. I'll step away from that source of investigation, to be on the safe side.
I think that brings Cythare up to null overall for me.
I don't like how easy Kami gives up his Cythare scumread here.
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Just out of curiosity, I decided to reread back on KJ. His question to Zionite about pre-planning a bus driver role seemed silly to me. Adding in the part about him looking for a scum tell on his pre-planing just seemed ridiculous as well. There are really only two town ways to play the role, and both are painstakingly obvious to anyone who has ever played mafia with a redirector role.
So, here is what I found on KJ:
This post is his first comment on the no-lynch strat. Reading between the lines would say he is against it, due to the odds of lyncing scum are higher, but I dislike the lack of a direct answer.
134 He is really hung up on the idea of no lynch, but it still not very committed to taking a side. He is fine chasing Rodemy for his calling Chris scum, but adds in some fluff, including an OoG motivation for myself for pushing this as a no-lynch.
103 I have never found this to be a relevant question, especially if the player in question isn't running like a chicken with its head cut off.
I find it amusing that you clearly know from the previous question I am probably one of the worst day 1 scum hunters, but am surprised when I take little initiative in finding scum. Also considering almost every single post you have made has been about my original plan, you have yet to take a stance on me.
375
1). I am not smearing mud, I am merely saying there is a lot of stuff going on, and a lot of players missing in action. Even I admit I posting low, even for me. It doesn't mean a scum motivation, it just means I am not playing with a full deck, and would like to pick up the dropped cards.
2). Missed the question, but no, I don't think that role clears him. Him giving it to Christ, rather than a less experienced town looks better for him, but if I had a strong behavioral scum read on him, I would lynch him, regardless of the role.
3). I see that you clearly took a stance, and admit you may have just not posted it. I am willing to accept that, considering you sent the vibe anyway.
I ended up rereading KJ because I thought I caught a scum asking lazy questions to move on. After seeing his tone, his points to other players, and his calling out to Godat about the shifting town lists, I am feeling a lot better for KJ being town. The initial dislike I had about him focusing too hard on my claim, I am seeing it as more him using it as a springboard to scumhunt, so good on KJ.
I will take a look at Godat next.
@Note: These notes are raw, meaning I did not go back to change how I read the posts. I honestly thought in the first few, I was starting to read a scum KJ, and only after seeing recent posts did I re-evaluate my stance.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Well, convincing everyone would be very difficult. You saw how the No Lynch idea went over.
Alright,
I accept that answer.
Plus your answer to Killjoy seems genuine. I can appreciate wanting to try to be better at this, but not knowing what that looks like yet. So you are trying different methods.
You are reading much more sincere at this point.
Unvote
##unvote: Godot
##unvote: Godot
Hmm. I have a handful of town reads and no real scum reads at the moment. Might have to look back at some interactions.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
ISO Antny223 and tell me what you think.
I just did and I was not terribly impressed.
Vote Antny223
I'm giving him 24 hours to do something.
Unvote, vote Antny
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2. The Cold Monarch
4. Killjoy
6. Sepiriel
7. KamikazeArchon
8. Rodemy
9. imabusinessman
13. Bur
15. ITF
18. Hunger
This is a list of people I am still willing to murder horribly today. Most of the people not on this list I think are somewhat town and in the case of Puddle he is going to resolve himself.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
If that's not a thing on this forum then that means
1) Not freaking out on a wagon could be personality driven, PR Role dependent, confidence that the wagon would dissolve because it was a ***** wagon(and it's starting to dissolve), player apathy, or learning from previous mistakes.
2) You've now acknowledged that what you thought happened didn't happen.
3) This doesn't make any sense to me. Are there players on this forum that read their role PM's day one and just say "I'm gonna use my cop/doctor/roleblocker on player #11"? Is that a thing on this forum? Even if that is a thing though, zionite doesn't have to be forthcoming. He could already know who he wants to use his abilities on and simply say he's not sure.
4) This seems ok.
The reasons you're town-reading zionite look contrived.
@ Sir Chris
Could you elaborate on how you went from no real scum reads to willing to lynch 10/18 players in this game?
@killjoy, seppel& waiting for godot...
What are your thoughts on Sir Chris' willing to lynch list including 10/18 players after having no real scum reads?
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
1) It could also be a stalled wagon on scum. Either is likely when you pick out of a hat. I would have expected a little bit of emotion, even from a scum trying to hide it.
2) Oh no, you misunderstood. What I thought happened, HAPPENED, I just agreed to not call it "scummy" so that you could sleep at night. You made a comment that looked hypocritical, I did not concede that point. You stated your reason was not scummy, you simply said one was "better," so I gave it a pass and said okay. Your comment does not cease to exist at that point, and my view of it does not change.
3) Killjoy asked him to hypothetically pick targets, so I gave my opinion on why I thought it was good he hadn't pre-planned actions. I think several players do think out their optimal lines of play, like Killjoy was talking about... you know what... go back and reread, I don't need to be spelling this all out for you.
4) Thanks Buddy!
The reason you are saying my read is contrived, looks awfully contrived. Is there some agenda you are trying to push forward, Ima-Bus-man?
That sounds pretty reasonable for D1.
might as well do a T/S list
KamikazeArchon - Town for an argument that's incredibly difficult to fake as scum
Sir Chris - Town for being the other part of that argument; I really want to find a ScumChris someday (and not be on his team)
Puddle Jumper - Town for his engaging posts
Killjoy - Town I think
Plowshares - town I think?
Huntzilla - He got mad at me but I forget if that was a towntell or not
Hunger - I haven't seen any behavior like Vagrant Story scumHunger. Then again, nobody's challenged him. He's just sort of been a voice in the distance.
Sepiriel - What? Sepiriel's in this game?
Rodemy - I really don't know
Cythare imabusinessman - I don't see why people hate this slot
Waitingforgodot - Time will tell
Snurfy8 - I don't like the part where he said that we needed better evidence before lynching him (or something to that effect)
Antny223 - Nothing memorable
The Cold Monarch - Hate this guy's posts
Bur - I think I remember wanting to lynch him for some reason
ITF - I remember his posts bugging me a lot, and I don't remember anything notable from him in the past week
Zionite - Probably still scum
I'm sure I can refine these quick reads, even if I just look back at my own posts to see notes I've made. Like I'm pretty sure I've forgotten someone I've called town for some reason.
I DON'T WANT TO LYNCH THESE PEOPLE
I WOULDN'T MIND SEEING THESE PEOPLE DEAD
I WANT TO LYNCH THESE PEOPLE
The thing to consider with TCM is does he knowingly deviate from his usual game as scum to champion NL? Seems pretty risky, upon reflection. That'd be super weird.
Also why exactly have any of my posts been hard to fake? I feel as if I am capable of emulating my town play very well. Why are you so trusting after one spat after you saw the holy war I had with Generic, Seppel? Seems strange to trust me based off of what I've done so far given your experience with me.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
What you did in this game required you to think and solve in a way that's hard to fake.
1. And I'm pointing out that there are a multitude of reasons for why someone would not show emotion when there's a wagon on them. Why are you expecting any emotion?
2. So you acknowledge I never called it scum but you're saying that I still called it scum? You agreed to call it not scummy because I called you out on it. Now it looks like you're trying to engage in subtle revisionist history.
3. And I still don't understand this. Do people on this forum pre-plan their actions before the day even starts? More specifically would you pre-plan your bus driver ability? I don't think anyone would.
Yeah, there is an agenda. I'm trying to figure out why your thought process is almost opposite to mine. I'm also concerned about your efforts at revisionist history.
@ Business I don't think what you are seeking has to do with alignment. I just think it is a mafia philosophy difference at this point. I mean keep talking about it if you want I guess but uh i don't think pre-planning vs not is going to find us any scum.
I will say though Huntzilla you shouldn't say things you don't mean if you are town. You can get in trouble. Luckily I tend to think doing so blatantly for no good reason is probably a tgown tell.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
I actually sat back and looked at your post for a minute before I realized you must have had some prior misgivings to me, because that list is just a reorganized version of other people's lists. I was general, certainly, but I don't know why a list of names gives you such terror.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Killjoy's post 31 'hello my fellow townies' makes me want to stone him. I mean, not really. But kind of really. You know what's amazing though? In post 49 he gets onto me for having a bit of a 'forced townie vibe' in my first post... when his opening post was literally 'hello my fellow townies'
Hello there Killjoy.
##vote:Killjoy
You just making up stuff to say at that point, I see.
ITF's early cheekiness is something I appreciate. A null tell, granted, but I appreciate it.
Rodemy's early vote on me, which I dismissed, makes it very clear he isn't reading the game very well. That could be important later on so I am noting it now. I am starting to think I was too merciful to Rodemy early on. He says he voted for me for giving a reason while he didn't vote TCM because TCM didn't give a reason. Made funny by the fact that I didn't actually give a reason for what he accused me of, mind you. His backpedal did feel genuine though.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I put out a moderately sized post on why I was suspicious of KJ, but start reading him as town. What exactly convinced you of the opposite read? Was it really only on the mode of "hi town buddies"?
The GJ way path to no lynching:
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Imab, please. pay. attention.
1) I expect normal townie folks, and even scum to show emotion about wagons being formed on them. Emotion sets us apart from robots. Emotion helps to show that you are naturally answering questions, versus writing and rewriting them seventeen times before posting, which to me me would be a sure sign of scum. Emotion would help make a little sense of what's going on. That's why I expect emotion. But there wasn't any against his wagon, which can be a scum tell, or can be confidence, like you had mentioned. It all equates to null, I just look for emotion, that is all.
2) I NEVER said YOU called it scummy. This particular point is getting irritating. Please go and reread what I have posted, but only after you have read what YOU have posted. I agreed to not call your hypocrisy scummy, yes. That does not mean that what you said goes away, or looks less foolish. I just agreed to not call it scummy. What exactly am I trying to change?
3) I am on your side on this one, I do not believe most people do. I think Killjoy was searching for clues. I do even know HOW you would be able to pre-plan your action, as you would need to figure out at least who MIGHT have a switch worthy role.
I apologize we are not seeing eye to eye. I am not changing my stance on that post though. You said it wasn't scummy. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and agreed ot not call it scummy. That simple.
I still dislike some of the questions she's asked, and how she's kinda justified some of the things she said... but she's getting moved to Null while I read her more.
Unvote
If you were scum you would just ignore it? WIFOM. Also self-meta.
Maybe that's just how I do things then. I actually came up with a plan rather quickly after hearing his role. It just makes no sense that he would put no thought about how he would use his role to me.
I'm not accusing you of not finding scum, I'm accusing you of not taking stances. Before I pointed it out, you'd not even attributed anything anyone did to a town mindset. I have trouble believing that you had no opinions up to that point.
And, you absoultely were smearing mud. In response to "you have no stances this game" you replied with "Well, Bur, Kami and ITF have low post counts!" which has nothing to do with your lack of stances. All it does it make those three look bad.
@Chris: How did you go from: to ? (Also, just noticed IBM noticed that too. +town to him)
I hate it. He claims it's PoE, but it's really not. I don't so much mind the whole "let's not lynch anyone not on this list", because that's a perfectly viable mindset. He thinks they're town.
But the reverse of it, wanting to lynch everyone on this list is bad. There are still town on that list. At least half that list is probably town. He even admitted he didn't have any scum reads, but he's ok with lynching all those people despite not having scum reads on any of them.
He's used that verbiage enough that it doesn't bother me.
lol what? My 31 was RVS. It's very obviously exagerated and hyperbolic. And my 49 is referencing this post: where you say the bolded. It's subtle. But it's there. The 'we' is obviously referencing you saying you're town without being obvious about it. But it's forced because you didn't need to say that second half of the sentence.
Also by that measure everything I said is 'not required.'
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Also for those following along WITH THE HOME GAME I didn't even really mean to be inclusive in that statement, that's just how I phrase things. So subtle even I didn't think about it much, I was just using your opinion of it as the constant rather than how I viewed it. Subtly forced, apparently. That's a really weird thing to say. Kind of like how people like to say I distance myself when I don't.
I don't like you right now Killjoy. I mean I think you are scum, I am sure you're a wonderful person.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Hunger (1): Bur
imabusinessman (1): Zionite
Snurfy8 (1): 7hawk77
Sir Chris (2): Sepiriel, waitingforgodot
Huntzilla (1): Snurfy8
Seppel (1): TCM
Zionite (4): Puddle Jumper, Plowshares, Hunger, KamikazeArchon
Sepiriel (1): ITF
waitingforgodot (1): imabusinessman
Antny223 (2): Huntzilla, Seppel
Killjoy (2): Sir Chris (2)
Not Voting: Antny223, Killjoy
With 18 players alive, it takes 10 to lynch.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
1) You look at it as null, but it's one of the reasons you're townreading zionite.
2) I don't consider @everyone voting zionite to be the same as @town. Just because you call something hypocritical doesn't make it so. I went over this in a rather large paragraph. That either you didn't read or did read and are pretending you didn't. And yes, you did call it scummy because you thought I called it scummy. Then when it turned out that I didn't call it scummy, only less effective, you changed your tune. You've already changed your stance on the post (whether I called something scummy or not).
I didn't call sending a generic message to the entire town scummy because I don't think it is: never have never will. If I think something is scummy it's not like I'm going to hesitate to say so and I would have pressured the relevant parties about it, not fling subtle suspicion at huge swaths of players. For your assessment to be true you would have to believe that I call people scum in subtle ways.
3) You don't think most people would pre-plan their actions but you're townreading zionite for something most people would do?
If I think something is scummy I'll say so in a way that looks something like this: based on your responses to me, it's clear at this point that this is not a simple misunderstanding. You're attempting to engage in manipulation+your contrived reason for that zionite townread.
vote: Huntzilla
I wouldn't be surprised if Hunt and Zio are scum together. Hunt's townread of zionite is flimsy.
Scumreads:
Huntzilla
Hunger...vote parking while being on the largest wagon and being active in other areas.
plowshares...sitting on the wagon without pushing it.
I'd be willing to lynch but I'm not sure they're scum...
Sir Chris...going from no scumreads to willing to lynch 10/18 players is gross BUT outside chance it's a playstyle difference
Bur...he's posting in other areas and not here.
zionite...he could be the scum and was getting bussed.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I stand corrected. I stated you were thinking it was scummy BEFORE you clarified it with the "better" comment. I apologize for that misrep, as I had truly forgotten about that. (See first big red quote for this one)
As for "changing my tune," that is exactly what you were asking me to do, at least in my mind. You were upset I thought you were stating it was scummy, when you hadn't stated that. So I agreed to drop it, and not use the "scummy" language to refer to it. (See the second big red quote for these points)
Well thank you for elaborating on what you do, Imab. I do not see manipulation in my actions. I did forget about the beginning of the fight, which I regret, but there is no scum motivation here. If I were scum Imab, why would I leave your continued pushing against me alone? I let you have your little spat and have not pushed you at all.
But, since you are going down this road, I think your reads are junk. I think you are picking on low hanging fruit, trying to warp simple conversation into some kind of scum case. You really shouldn't be calling people scum because they are in other threads being active. You do not know the circumstances of their situation or the intensity of those games. That is a ridiculous "tell" and does not actually hold water here. Being unsure of reads on day one is not abnormal for some folks here. Others convey certainty from the moment they post their RVS vote. Being uncertain on day one is not a freaking scum tell, despite what the old timers here might tell you.
Bottom line is this though. I think you are just pissed off because of your dumb hypocritical statement that got called out on, and you are doing your best to save face.
Have you read the whole game yet Imab? Your reads suggest you have not. You mention NOTHING about the early game. I would appreciate you actually catching up in the thread before responding again.
Unvote
Vote: Antny223
Modern
WBR Mardu Midrange
UR Storm
Commander
WBR Queen Marchesa Stax
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Pillowfort
RRR Krenko, Mob Boss Chaos
If we end up not lynching Antny for some reason, I am totally on board with a Killjoy lynch for that wall post in #579. Particularly the Godot and Chris stuff. The TCM interaction is just weird. This isn't the townKilljoy I'm used to.
Page 9 - I find Godot lying about his role interesting. I've falseclaimed vt as scum and I'm not sure town would need to falseclaim like this. Also I don't see how someone could 'miss' a PR on their role PM.
onto page 10.
This would sound more genuine if backed up by a vote. I didn't like Seppel's attack either but the way your worried by your vote being perceived as OMGUS makes me suspect you a litte. And Seppel going after a scumbuddy like this is right out his playbook.
Opportunistic vote on Hunt...check. I still think Cythare is scum. Forget what I said about Hunt before, there's too many people I dislike on his wagon for him to be scum at this point.
Plow is probably town, I agree on Hunt, not on Seppel, and I'm on the fence about Puddle. Totally agree on being bored.
Since there doesn't seem to be any sign of a Hunger wagon, this is a great way to put off a difficult argument until some point later in the game.
Really, because I think he might have hit the nail on the head.
Can you just elaborate on your plan, because at this point I can't think of any townie reason why you would have proposed a no lynch.
This is all based on a lot of assumptions, which seems to all tie to the same thing - you're saying that a town is going to make better use of it's night actions than scum. That is not always the case, even when the town has a lot of power. For all you know (if you are town) most of the roles can be little more than glorified vt.
Why do think he is cleared?
@Mod - V/LA until Tuesday, March 17th.
When did Seppel make Hunt implode?
This sort of retreat is so scummy it hurts.
I also don't like Seppel calling for a modkill after the dust has settled. Seems unnecessary. Would town!Seppel do this?
If you were reading you'd know PJ claimed to received the item. And unless SC, PJ and Hunt are all scum together pulling off what looks to be a fairly extraordinary gambit this is not what happened. I think Zion is too keen to discredit Hunt here.
And this is all over the place.
Cythre + Zion + other(s) = scumteam.
First post from Kami for ages. His posting rate is worse than mine (and that's saying something) and all we get is brief comment and pointless question.
Why do you care?
You already said he isn't a good lynch toDay, so why not hold off asking this?
It's also telling that when called out on this, Godot doesn't respond (yet he responds to just about everything else in 345).
Same as before, Arch quotes one thing, makes a small point and that's it. Good way to stay in the background.
I actually like TCM posts on this page.
Eerily enough I was thinking the same thing looking at 360.
Hold up, weren't you calling for a Cythare wagon a couple of pages back?
Can you expand on this?
All of townread on Plowshares just evaporated.
Skipping over KJ big post. Mostly because he didn't mention me and I've got enough people in my lynchable pile to put KJ off for now.
How is that lying?
Antny is basically spamming the thread. There's no way for this approach to be useful for town, and I think he's just trying too hard to be seen making effort. I am willing to vote him. However, I think the Zionite wagon is dissolving too rapidly and I want everyone to take another look at that. I'm also going to review the reasons for people dropping off the wagon.
What did you expect scum to do exactly? More specifically what did you expect to see scum do that town wouldn't?
I don't like how easy Kami gives up his Cythare scumread here.