I'm not shocked by this happening, but I am shocked that you make it sounds like Karn was the other scum.
I knew that if there was 4 scum dkings was the 4th man. The only reason I didn't vote him immediately is that by sheer logic either Proph or KJ was scum. If there was any possible way for them both to be town then I would have voted dkings in a second. If Karn was part of the scum team I would have been ranting about how the town winning would have been impossible. As is, the town mislynched twice and lost the game. That just doesn't happen.
I also saw Iso defending a 4 man scum team with 2 neutrals, but I'm not sure how. A 16 man game is balanced with 4 scum 12 town with 3 scum being power roles and 3-5 town power roles depending on strength of role. You adjust that based on what is added. As the prime example of this Ged added a neutral, and then separated one scum member from any communication with the rest. What we have here is a 6 man scum team (both Seppel and Cythare has win conditions against the town), and every town member is given the ability to kill the other town members. What everyone needs to realize is that the town was 100%accurate with their vig shots and only killed a single scum with them. That's a problem with the setup.
Like I said, it was fun and a good idea but literally all the reasons why the balance didn't work happened. If Tan was lynched Day 1 then the town could have lost by day 3.
I take back anything positive I said about the setup. This was severely stacked against the town.
I figured a redirect with me was balanced by me killing the redirect too.
I figured the scum had no way to avoid the vig shots flying around, they had two.
I figured the scum had no way to get vig shots, they all did.
I figured the scum had no way to get their own bonus vig shots, they did.
Iso, there is no defending this setup outside of it being fun.
I realize that it basically came down to my vote since Karn wouldn't make one and we shouldn't have lynched dkings short of a investigation result based on night 3.
>literally only 5 days into the Day
>is potential mylo
>i'm actually asking questions and playing the game and catching up
>"wouldn't vote"
I'm not shocked by this happening, but I am shocked that you make it sounds like Karn was the other scum.
I knew that if there was 4 scum dkings was the 4th man. The only reason I didn't vote him immediately is that by sheer logic either Proph or KJ was scum. If there was any possible way for them both to be town then I would have voted dkings in a second. If Karn was part of the scum team I would have been ranting about how the town winning would have been impossible. As is, the town mislynched twice and lost the game. That just doesn't happen.
I also saw Iso defending a 4 man scum team with 2 neutrals, but I'm not sure how. A 16 man game is balanced with 4 scum 12 town with 3 scum being power roles and 3-5 town power roles depending on strength of role. You adjust that based on what is added. As the prime example of this Ged added a neutral, and then separated one scum member from any communication with the rest. What we have here is a 6 man scum team (both Seppel and Cythare has win conditions against the town), and every town member is given the ability to kill the other town members. What everyone needs to realize is that the town was 100%accurate with their vig shots and only killed a single scum with them. That's a problem with the setup.
Like I said, it was fun and a good idea but literally all the reasons why the balance didn't work happened. If Tan was lynched Day 1 then the town could have lost by day 3.
Uhm, no.
Seppel's win condition was for him to kill dkings AND Deathjoey - both of which were scum, and both of which hindered the town's PR's immensely.
Cythare's win condition could only be accomplished with Deathjoey dead.
If anything, the Neutrals HELPED the town. Seppel, IMO, did not play his role optimally - as soon as Wheat was modkilled, he should have gone for dkings's throat instead of "leaving it to the mafia".
Also, the town mislynched twice and lost the game because I had to modkill two townies. I had 5 replacements; 3 of them replaced on Day 1, and a 4th was needed on Day 1 - and only one of the last two replacements even PMed me back and said they couldn't. I had no choice. There was another lynch in there had this not happened, meaning all of the Vig shots were accounted for. This setup was intended as a Texas Justice variant, meaning there was room for everyone to shoot. (I discuss extensively in the Spectator QT what I was trying to accomplish with this setup and why I'm actually really pleased with how it turned out.)
The reason the scum had so much redirection power was because the town was not supposed to broadcast their Vig shots and when they got them...that's just common sense. (For why broadcasting Vig shots does not work, see: The Legend of Aang Mafia.) As soon as it came out that there was a Redirector or a Bus Driver, all claiming of Vengeance unlocks should have immediately ceased. This was put in place to punish the town for being free with their information. Which brings me to my next point...
Information was key in this game. Tracker, Backup, Neighbors, Inventor, & Rolecop vs. Ascetic, Neighbor, & JoAT. It baffles me how everyone accepted Killjoy's claim with Karn's on the table and the Town Tracker, Town Rolecop, and Mafia Watcher all flipped. Proph, why the hell didn't you immediately fullclaim when the last Day started? I don't think anyone would have lynched Wildfire after his claim, and I was curious to see how all of that played out with the Town Tracker & Town Backup vs. the Mafia Watcher all being siblings and having interrelated Vengeance triggers.
Speaking of the Vengeance triggers, the mafia was fully unable to unlock all 4 of their Retribution shots at any point in time. Deathjoey's was nearly impossible to get, Killjoy's was pretty much a freebie for when the scum fall behind and lose one of their best roles in this setup, dkings's was difficult to get because he had at least one other player who KNEW they needed him dead to win + unlock their Vengeance ability which meant he needed to either use up 2 mafia Nightkills on his Neighbor buddies, which gives the town a chance to use their information roles, or be really sneaky; and finally, Wildfire's was a reward for the scum doing a good job of PR-hunting.
You say the setup was fun - sure, who doesn't love having a Vig shot? But I disagree that it's unable to be defended. The setup had a lot of thought put into it and there were twists and turns that hardcore stomped out modgaming and flavorgaming, alike. Zionite suggested that players lose their Retribution shot if they don't use it on the Night immediately after they get it, but when I put the Bomb in, he said that was fine, instead. In hindsight, I think that's the one change I would've made to the setup, but ultimately, I don't think it changed much (if anything) as the only person that didn't shoot was Axelrod and he died before he could, anyway. (Incidentally, Axelrod NOT shooting bought the town another Day.)
Does anyone have any questions about the game or anything else?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I posted it in the spec chat, but here, have a setup:
-
You are Tasen Soldier Vateilika, Town Inventor.
You are a Tasen.
Once per Night, you may target a player to grant them a 1-shot use of one of the following abilities:
Nanoworm - Once during the game, you may target a player at Night. You will learn that player's alignment at the start of the next Day.
Optic Override - Once during the game, you may target a player at Night. You will learn any player that player targets that Night at the start of the next Day.
Security Camera Tap - Once during the game, you may target a player at Night. You will learn any players that target that player that Night at the start of the next Day.
Tech - Once during the game at Night, you may shield yourself from all abilities.
You may only grant each of these abilities once.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when your Nanofield is removed.
-
You are Tasen Elite Krotera, Town Rolecop.
You are a Tasen.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will learn any non-factional abilities that player has. (Note: This does not include Vengeance abilities.)
You unlock your Vengeance ability when the human anomaly targets you.
-
You are Iji Kataiser, the Human Anomaly, Town Tracker.
You are a human.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will learn any player that player targets that Night.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when your brother dies.
-
You are Mia Kataiser, Town Backup.
You are a human.
If either of your siblings die, you will gain the ability of the first one that does. If they die at the same time, you will gain only your sister's ability.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last human alive.
-
You are Komato Assassin 78525-32098-53178, Town Neighbor.
You are a Komato.
At Night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors, Komato Assassin Asha (playername) and Komato Assassin Ansaksie (playername) in this QuickTopic.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato Assassin alive.
-
You are MPFB Devastator Turret, Town Bomb.
You are a robot.
If a player would kill you, they will also die.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when any player targets you with an ability.
-
You are Komato Annihilator Beta, Town Vanilla.
You are a Komato.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato alive.
-
You are Tasen Soldier KG111:PAIE, Town Vanilla.
You are a Tasen.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Tasen alive.
-
You are Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla.
You are a Tasen.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you successfully place the last vote on a wagon that lynches a member of the mafia.
-
You are Komato Berserker, Town Vanilla.
You are a Komato.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you successfully place the first vote on a wagon that lynches a member of the mafia.
-
You are Komato Assassin Ansaksie, Neutral Revengeant.
You are a Komato.
At Night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors, Komato Assassin 78525-32098-53178 (playername) and Komato Assassin Asha (playername) in this QuickTopic.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato Assassin alive.
You win when you settle the score with Komato Assassin Asha and Komato Annihilator Iosa.
-
You are Tasen Soldier Yukabacera, Neutral Cracker.
You are a Tasen.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will disable that player's Nanofield, removing their non-factional abilities along with it. (Note: This does not affect Vengeance abilities or the unlocking thereof. Players with no non-Vengeance abilities are considered to have no Nanofield.)
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you target the player with the strongest Nanoshield in the game.
You win when the only active Nanofield is your own.
-
You are Dan Kataiser, Mafia Watcher.
You are a human.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will learn any player that targets your target that Night.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when Iji Kataiser dies.
-
You are Komato Annihilator Iosa, Mafia Ascetic.
You are a Komato.
Any non-killing abilities that affect you will instead have no effect.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are targeted by all living members of the town that have an active, non-Vengeance ability.
-
You are Komato Assassin Asha, Mafia Bulletproof.
You are a Komato.
At Night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors, Komato Assassin 78525-32098-53178 (playername) and Komato Assassin Ansaksie (playername) in this QuickTopic.
Any killing abilites that affect you will instead have no effect.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato Assassin alive.
-
You are Komato General Tor, Mafia Arsenalist.
You are a Komato.
Once per Night, you may use one of the following 1-shot abilities:
Ragebomb - All abilities used by target player will fail that Night.
Tyrian Claw - All abilities that affect target player that Night will affect second target player instead of the originally intended target.
Fractal Rocket - All abilities that first target player uses that Night will affect second target player instead of the originally intended target.
MPFB Devastator - All abilities that first target player uses and is affected by will affect second target player and vice-versa that Night.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when Komato Annihilator Iosa dies.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, and Cythare's role was meant to reduce late-game power creep - such as the mafia getting 3 of their kills and Tor going ape***** with his redirections.
There were a lot of hints about this setup in the original Iji Mafia - such as Mia [supposed to] being the Backup (incidentally, Seppel accidentally missed this in his setup and Mia was drafted as VT, which Proph ironically claimed here), Asha being some form of unkillable, Nikomaru's "I'm a 1-Shot Vig, I'm Iji" claim, Dan being the Town Tracker in Iji Mafia (and trading places as the Mafia Watcher here with Iji as the Town Tracker instead of a Mafia Goon as per Iji Mafia), and a few others that aren't coming to mind. In GIANT ROBOT BATTLE ROYALE!!! Mafia, the PRs were pre-determined robots, but everyone that was VT was given a robot they were meant to like - Seppel was Komato General Tor Eidolon Exoskeleton, Town Vanilla in that game, and Manders was Tor in Iji Mafia. Oh, and dkings's role was the foil to E_P's role - each role in the town/mafia had some sort of opposite or similar role on the other team.
I actually had Seppel in mind when I designed the Ansaksie role and was curious to see how he'd play it, so I thought it was perfect that he replaced into it. I did also giggle hysterically when Cyan was assigned the bulldog role.
Also...how the hell did no one catch Killjoy's awful flavor claim? Komato Sentinel Proxima is a ROBOT, not a female; nor did Proxima have any emotions.
-
If I had to assign MVPs, they would go like this:
Town MVP: Prophylaxis. Proph was so incredibly wrong about the scum through about 90% of the game but he was the only person who figured dkings out and realized a few days too late that Killjoy was also scum. Seeing as he was the only townie voting correctly in endgame, this is an obvious choice. Mafia MVP: dkingsland967. I felt like dkings played very strongly early on and that his only downfalls were claiming Seppel claimed Neutral in the Neighborhood, claiming to use Karn's item/falseclaiming Vanilla, and sort of vanishing in the last Day - but these all somehow inevitably worked out for him, so who am I to judge?
I'm not awarding a Neutral MVP - Cythare got lynched Day 1, and Seppel was basically killed "to unlock dkings's Vengeance ability".
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think Proph's downfall was that his reads were so bad for the first two days that it hurt his credibility in the late game. Hell, the two players primarily supporting Proph as town on D1 were myself and Cyan, and we killed Cyan early.
Also, people really shouldn't get on EP's case about the endgame vote. We probably would have blown town out if he hadn't vigged Wildfire.
As for me, the disappearance on the last day was calculated. I pretty much assumed I was the lynch, so I wanted to post as little as possible to not tip my hand in any way. Also that "thanks for taking the bait" quip at Killjoy was thrown out as a CYA just in case town had a way of stopping the lynch.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think we get a little side-tracked with issues of "balance" these days. Really, the goal (hopefully) is for everyone to have fun, and for people to feel like they at least had a chance. That's what's most disheartening, feeling like you never had a chance. And whatever the balance issues, the Town definitely had a chance this game. Maybe that was only because we actually played pretty well early on, but whatever the reason, the opportunities were there, and I don't really feel like I was cheated or anything.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso, I just want to reiterate I enjoyed the game because it was fun. I had fun playing Seppel's Kill Bill mafia and I also have a couple games people had strong reactions to at the end, and I really just want to help your next game whenever it come up.
I realize how critical I came across, and I know I rubbed W_G the wrong way too. I have a somewhat abrasive personality at times. I see what you did by giving the neutrals independent win conditions that encouraged play with the town, but they probably should have been additional win conditions since a neutral claim means auto-lynch and in a game where the scum hold so much power it means Seppel and Cythare are two lynched that hurt the town but seem like they help the town. I love the town balance in the game it makes perfect sense, but having Killjoy and dkings on the same side basically means if any vengeance triggers were announced in thread the scum knew what to do. Me claiming bomb, having a shot known to be coming, and letting the scum kill me the other town and leave the scum with no fear whatsoever is exactly what happened despite thinking it wouldn't. I know you've been around here a while, but the town taking charge of the game mechanics and encouraging transparency to catch lies is critical to their success in a game like this (I can't think of a single game where the town did not try to take advantage or at least keep their game mechanic claims transparent, hell I ran a mechanic intense game and the town immediately mass claimed to take advantage). Hell, the role Killjoy claimed makes perfect sense on scum with a rolecop, track, watch, and whatever else.
Killjoy's claim was totally false other than the fact that he had multiple 1-shot abilities.
I've only ever seen the town fall to pieces by trying to spend a lot of time on Night actions. I wanted to see if the town would figure out to keep their mouths shut and utilize the scum not knowing how to play around the town's actions...like what always happens when mechanic discussion drowns out behavioral analysis. ;p
And yes, the Neutrals were another anti-modgaming touch - they both majorly would have assisted the town had they stayed alive, but the town gave in to paranoia.
I do appreciate the feedback - I just put a huge, HUGE amount of thought into the setup, and I felt it showed.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm sad that I thought it was TTT when it was TSN on the neighbor group. (T=town, S=scum, N=neutral)
I'm really surprised that no one killed dkings when Seppel flipped neutral even considering that, though. I mean I didn't read the game but TSN is way more likely than TTN in general.
I regret having to be modkilled, I think this game was finally starting to become reasonably fun when it happened. I'm pretty sure I still am not allowed to say what happened either.
I take back anything positive I said about the setup. This was severely stacked against the town.
I figured a redirect with me was balanced by me killing the redirect too.
I figured the scum had no way to avoid the vig shots flying around, they had two.
I figured the scum had no way to get vig shots, they all did.
I figured the scum had no way to get their own bonus vig shots, they did.
Iso, there is no defending this setup outside of it being fun.
Iso likes making all sides high-powered to help reward good individual play. If you figured all of that then you were playing poorly and the setup punished you.
I think the setup was far more balanced than Survival Horror and Lucian.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Who says it was a compliment? Lucian and Survival Horror had really bad balancing to the point that ANYTHING is better.
The one problem this game does have is that since it's so high-powered, the 2 town modkills wildly swung the balance far more than normal. If that hadn't happened it would probably be close to balanced.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I also saw Iso defending a 4 man scum team with 2 neutrals, but I'm not sure how. A 16 man game is balanced with 4 scum 12 town with 3 scum being power roles and 3-5 town power roles depending on strength of role. You adjust that based on what is added. As the prime example of this Ged added a neutral, and then separated one scum member from any communication with the rest. What we have here is a 6 man scum team (both Seppel and Cythare has win conditions against the town), and every town member is given the ability to kill the other town members. What everyone needs to realize is that the town was 100% accurate with their vig shots and only killed a single scum with them. That's a problem with the setup.
Like I said, it was fun and a good idea but literally all the reasons why the balance didn't work happened. If Tan was lynched Day 1 then the town could have lost by day 3.
I figured a redirect with me was balanced by me killing the redirect too.
I figured the scum had no way to avoid the vig shots flying around, they had two.
I figured the scum had no way to get vig shots, they all did.
I figured the scum had no way to get their own bonus vig shots, they did.
Iso, there is no defending this setup outside of it being fun.
>literally only 5 days into the Day
>is potential mylo
>i'm actually asking questions and playing the game and catching up
>"wouldn't vote"
k bro
Uhm, no.
Seppel's win condition was for him to kill dkings AND Deathjoey - both of which were scum, and both of which hindered the town's PR's immensely.
Cythare's win condition could only be accomplished with Deathjoey dead.
If anything, the Neutrals HELPED the town. Seppel, IMO, did not play his role optimally - as soon as Wheat was modkilled, he should have gone for dkings's throat instead of "leaving it to the mafia".
Also, the town mislynched twice and lost the game because I had to modkill two townies. I had 5 replacements; 3 of them replaced on Day 1, and a 4th was needed on Day 1 - and only one of the last two replacements even PMed me back and said they couldn't. I had no choice. There was another lynch in there had this not happened, meaning all of the Vig shots were accounted for. This setup was intended as a Texas Justice variant, meaning there was room for everyone to shoot. (I discuss extensively in the Spectator QT what I was trying to accomplish with this setup and why I'm actually really pleased with how it turned out.)
The reason the scum had so much redirection power was because the town was not supposed to broadcast their Vig shots and when they got them...that's just common sense. (For why broadcasting Vig shots does not work, see: The Legend of Aang Mafia.) As soon as it came out that there was a Redirector or a Bus Driver, all claiming of Vengeance unlocks should have immediately ceased. This was put in place to punish the town for being free with their information. Which brings me to my next point...
Information was key in this game. Tracker, Backup, Neighbors, Inventor, & Rolecop vs. Ascetic, Neighbor, & JoAT. It baffles me how everyone accepted Killjoy's claim with Karn's on the table and the Town Tracker, Town Rolecop, and Mafia Watcher all flipped. Proph, why the hell didn't you immediately fullclaim when the last Day started? I don't think anyone would have lynched Wildfire after his claim, and I was curious to see how all of that played out with the Town Tracker & Town Backup vs. the Mafia Watcher all being siblings and having interrelated Vengeance triggers.
Speaking of the Vengeance triggers, the mafia was fully unable to unlock all 4 of their Retribution shots at any point in time. Deathjoey's was nearly impossible to get, Killjoy's was pretty much a freebie for when the scum fall behind and lose one of their best roles in this setup, dkings's was difficult to get because he had at least one other player who KNEW they needed him dead to win + unlock their Vengeance ability which meant he needed to either use up 2 mafia Nightkills on his Neighbor buddies, which gives the town a chance to use their information roles, or be really sneaky; and finally, Wildfire's was a reward for the scum doing a good job of PR-hunting.
You say the setup was fun - sure, who doesn't love having a Vig shot? But I disagree that it's unable to be defended. The setup had a lot of thought put into it and there were twists and turns that hardcore stomped out modgaming and flavorgaming, alike. Zionite suggested that players lose their Retribution shot if they don't use it on the Night immediately after they get it, but when I put the Bomb in, he said that was fine, instead. In hindsight, I think that's the one change I would've made to the setup, but ultimately, I don't think it changed much (if anything) as the only person that didn't shoot was Axelrod and he died before he could, anyway. (Incidentally, Axelrod NOT shooting bought the town another Day.)
Does anyone have any questions about the game or anything else?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
-
You are Tasen Soldier Vateilika, Town Inventor.
You are a Tasen.
Once per Night, you may target a player to grant them a 1-shot use of one of the following abilities:
Nanoworm - Once during the game, you may target a player at Night. You will learn that player's alignment at the start of the next Day.
Optic Override - Once during the game, you may target a player at Night. You will learn any player that player targets that Night at the start of the next Day.
Security Camera Tap - Once during the game, you may target a player at Night. You will learn any players that target that player that Night at the start of the next Day.
Tech - Once during the game at Night, you may shield yourself from all abilities.
You may only grant each of these abilities once.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when your Nanofield is removed.
-
You are Tasen Elite Krotera, Town Rolecop.
You are a Tasen.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will learn any non-factional abilities that player has. (Note: This does not include Vengeance abilities.)
You unlock your Vengeance ability when the human anomaly targets you.
-
You are Iji Kataiser, the Human Anomaly, Town Tracker.
You are a human.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will learn any player that player targets that Night.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when your brother dies.
-
You are Mia Kataiser, Town Backup.
You are a human.
If either of your siblings die, you will gain the ability of the first one that does. If they die at the same time, you will gain only your sister's ability.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last human alive.
-
You are Komato Assassin 78525-32098-53178, Town Neighbor.
You are a Komato.
At Night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors, Komato Assassin Asha (playername) and Komato Assassin Ansaksie (playername) in this QuickTopic.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato Assassin alive.
-
You are MPFB Devastator Turret, Town Bomb.
You are a robot.
If a player would kill you, they will also die.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when any player targets you with an ability.
-
You are Komato Annihilator Beta, Town Vanilla.
You are a Komato.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato alive.
-
You are Tasen Soldier KG111:PAIE, Town Vanilla.
You are a Tasen.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Tasen alive.
-
You are Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla.
You are a Tasen.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you successfully place the last vote on a wagon that lynches a member of the mafia.
-
You are Komato Berserker, Town Vanilla.
You are a Komato.
You have no abilities aside from your vote.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you successfully place the first vote on a wagon that lynches a member of the mafia.
-
You are Komato Assassin Ansaksie, Neutral Revengeant.
You are a Komato.
At Night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors, Komato Assassin 78525-32098-53178 (playername) and Komato Assassin Asha (playername) in this QuickTopic.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato Assassin alive.
You win when you settle the score with Komato Assassin Asha and Komato Annihilator Iosa.
-
You are Tasen Soldier Yukabacera, Neutral Cracker.
You are a Tasen.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will disable that player's Nanofield, removing their non-factional abilities along with it. (Note: This does not affect Vengeance abilities or the unlocking thereof. Players with no non-Vengeance abilities are considered to have no Nanofield.)
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you target the player with the strongest Nanoshield in the game.
You win when the only active Nanofield is your own.
-
You are Dan Kataiser, Mafia Watcher.
You are a human.
Once per Night, you may target a player. You will learn any player that targets your target that Night.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when Iji Kataiser dies.
-
You are Komato Annihilator Iosa, Mafia Ascetic.
You are a Komato.
Any non-killing abilities that affect you will instead have no effect.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are targeted by all living members of the town that have an active, non-Vengeance ability.
-
You are Komato Assassin Asha, Mafia Bulletproof.
You are a Komato.
At Night, you may talk to your fellow Neighbors, Komato Assassin 78525-32098-53178 (playername) and Komato Assassin Ansaksie (playername) in this QuickTopic.
Any killing abilites that affect you will instead have no effect.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when you are the last Komato Assassin alive.
-
You are Komato General Tor, Mafia Arsenalist.
You are a Komato.
Once per Night, you may use one of the following 1-shot abilities:
Ragebomb - All abilities used by target player will fail that Night.
Tyrian Claw - All abilities that affect target player that Night will affect second target player instead of the originally intended target.
Fractal Rocket - All abilities that first target player uses that Night will affect second target player instead of the originally intended target.
MPFB Devastator - All abilities that first target player uses and is affected by will affect second target player and vice-versa that Night.
You unlock your Vengeance ability when Komato Annihilator Iosa dies.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
There were a lot of hints about this setup in the original Iji Mafia - such as Mia [supposed to] being the Backup (incidentally, Seppel accidentally missed this in his setup and Mia was drafted as VT, which Proph ironically claimed here), Asha being some form of unkillable, Nikomaru's "I'm a 1-Shot Vig, I'm Iji" claim, Dan being the Town Tracker in Iji Mafia (and trading places as the Mafia Watcher here with Iji as the Town Tracker instead of a Mafia Goon as per Iji Mafia), and a few others that aren't coming to mind. In GIANT ROBOT BATTLE ROYALE!!! Mafia, the PRs were pre-determined robots, but everyone that was VT was given a robot they were meant to like - Seppel was Komato General Tor Eidolon Exoskeleton, Town Vanilla in that game, and Manders was Tor in Iji Mafia. Oh, and dkings's role was the foil to E_P's role - each role in the town/mafia had some sort of opposite or similar role on the other team.
Inventor, Vigs -> JoAT
Tracker, Backup, Rolecop -> Watcher, Ascetic
Bomb, Vigs -> Bulletproof, Vigs
-
I actually had Seppel in mind when I designed the Ansaksie role and was curious to see how he'd play it, so I thought it was perfect that he replaced into it. I did also giggle hysterically when Cyan was assigned the bulldog role.
Also...how the hell did no one catch Killjoy's awful flavor claim? Komato Sentinel Proxima is a ROBOT, not a female; nor did Proxima have any emotions.
-
If I had to assign MVPs, they would go like this:
Town MVP: Prophylaxis. Proph was so incredibly wrong about the scum through about 90% of the game but he was the only person who figured dkings out and realized a few days too late that Killjoy was also scum. Seeing as he was the only townie voting correctly in endgame, this is an obvious choice.
Mafia MVP: dkingsland967. I felt like dkings played very strongly early on and that his only downfalls were claiming Seppel claimed Neutral in the Neighborhood, claiming to use Karn's item/falseclaiming Vanilla, and sort of vanishing in the last Day - but these all somehow inevitably worked out for him, so who am I to judge?
I'm not awarding a Neutral MVP - Cythare got lynched Day 1, and Seppel was basically killed "to unlock dkings's Vengeance ability".
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I think Proph's downfall was that his reads were so bad for the first two days that it hurt his credibility in the late game. Hell, the two players primarily supporting Proph as town on D1 were myself and Cyan, and we killed Cyan early.
Also, people really shouldn't get on EP's case about the endgame vote. We probably would have blown town out if he hadn't vigged Wildfire.
As for me, the disappearance on the last day was calculated. I pretty much assumed I was the lynch, so I wanted to post as little as possible to not tip my hand in any way. Also that "thanks for taking the bait" quip at Killjoy was thrown out as a CYA just in case town had a way of stopping the lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I realize how critical I came across, and I know I rubbed W_G the wrong way too. I have a somewhat abrasive personality at times. I see what you did by giving the neutrals independent win conditions that encouraged play with the town, but they probably should have been additional win conditions since a neutral claim means auto-lynch and in a game where the scum hold so much power it means Seppel and Cythare are two lynched that hurt the town but seem like they help the town. I love the town balance in the game it makes perfect sense, but having Killjoy and dkings on the same side basically means if any vengeance triggers were announced in thread the scum knew what to do. Me claiming bomb, having a shot known to be coming, and letting the scum kill me the other town and leave the scum with no fear whatsoever is exactly what happened despite thinking it wouldn't. I know you've been around here a while, but the town taking charge of the game mechanics and encouraging transparency to catch lies is critical to their success in a game like this (I can't think of a single game where the town did not try to take advantage or at least keep their game mechanic claims transparent, hell I ran a mechanic intense game and the town immediately mass claimed to take advantage). Hell, the role Killjoy claimed makes perfect sense on scum with a rolecop, track, watch, and whatever else.
I've only ever seen the town fall to pieces by trying to spend a lot of time on Night actions. I wanted to see if the town would figure out to keep their mouths shut and utilize the scum not knowing how to play around the town's actions...like what always happens when mechanic discussion drowns out behavioral analysis. ;p
And yes, the Neutrals were another anti-modgaming touch - they both majorly would have assisted the town had they stayed alive, but the town gave in to paranoia.
I do appreciate the feedback - I just put a huge, HUGE amount of thought into the setup, and I felt it showed.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm sad that I thought it was TTT when it was TSN on the neighbor group. (T=town, S=scum, N=neutral)
I'm really surprised that no one killed dkings when Seppel flipped neutral even considering that, though. I mean I didn't read the game but TSN is way more likely than TTN in general.
I regret having to be modkilled, I think this game was finally starting to become reasonably fun when it happened. I'm pretty sure I still am not allowed to say what happened either.
Iso likes making all sides high-powered to help reward good individual play. If you figured all of that then you were playing poorly and the setup punished you.
I think the setup was far more balanced than Survival Horror and Lucian.
But Jey and I weren't playing
Oh, but yes, please don't mention the thing about why you were modkilled. There's nothing we can do about that but wait it out.
I'm glad YOU thought the setup was fine, you're usually very critical of my setup balancing. I do have a propensity for punishing modgaming, though.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
The one problem this game does have is that since it's so high-powered, the 2 town modkills wildly swung the balance far more than normal. If that hadn't happened it would probably be close to balanced.
...right?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player