KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
This is the last quotewall I'm doing with dkings, and will devote my time instead to rereading and bringing up relevant points from Days 1 and 2. It kind of feels like everyone else is ignoring our quotewars, which is understandable because they're a little silly.
Quote from dkings »
Now tell me that isn't the EXACT same thing he's doing here.
I explained why I think one of you two are the last scum. You're trying to draw comparisons from another game with a completely different set of circumstances.
Quote from dkings »
In Celestial he claimed a one-shot Lie Detector ability and cleared a townie with it (Megiddo). Here he is claiming he was gifted a 1-shot cop shot and is clearing Axelrod (yet another sign Axelrod is town).
Look at my progression with Axelrod Yesterday. I started the Day off convinced that Axelrod was scum, but you'll notice that towards the later and end of the Day I completely dropped all pressure against him, despite listing him as my top scum read in my big analysis post. Why? Because I knew I could just cop Axelrod.
Quote from dkings »
Maybe he hit the panic button here when Wildfire ended up dead today.
I completely failed to do that in the endgame of Celestial. Plus, that's pretty much textbook optimal town play if you're going to be mislynched.
Quote from dkings »
In his interaction analysis, he is neglecting the fact that it was primarily me who drew attention to Deathjoey in the first place based on the EP wagon. I was pushing him D1 until Cythare claimed neutral. Why in the world would I look to bus in that position if I was scum? He should know from experience of how mad I was at Iso for unnecessarily bussing me on D1 in Pleasantville.
WRONG
You pushed Deathjoey until a few posts later when you said:
Quote from dkings »
Deathjoey's catch-up post is good enough for now.
I still want to hear what you saw in catch-up post that made it "good enough for now" since I read the post and found it woefully lacking.
Quote from dkings »
Something else about me that Proph knows from experience that he is using against me: I don't ask a lot of questions. As a general rule, I analyze and make statements. I've been called out for this before (swishh did it in Smalltown Swap). It's just the way I play. I also find it amusing Proph is attacking me for this when he publicly subscribes to this theory:
That's from Apocalypse Mafia, a game I played /a year ago/. I'm no longer that ham-fisted about not responding to strong scum reads (see this!) Point taken on the "analyze and make statements" part, but I'll whip out a Megs quote from Celestial:
Quote from Megiddo »
Scum are very good at casing other scum (it turns out that when you know who is scum you can make a very good case on one of them). Scum are not very good at interacting with other scum, and that's what you're lacking.
Your interactions with Wildfire and Deathjoey are shoddy, and that's what I'm concerned about.
Quote from dkings »
Late yesterday, Proph pushed Rodemy to commit to a single vig target. That makes a lot of sense from scum who know they have a redirect ability in their arsenal. You know who else was doing this? Wildfire. He tried to get a consensus on Kamikaze first, then said he wanted Rodemy to shoot Seppel (who conveniently ended up dead).
Truth be told, I wanted Rodemy to commit to a single vig target because I didn't want to end up dead with a cop shot.
Quote from dkings »
In 1383, Proph said the scum were probably lurking. Karn was lurking hard at that point. I called this out later and even mentioned it to Proph, and his response was "lol mechanics town".
Read through the chain of events. I postulated that the scum were lurking before Sir Karn hinted his role to me.
Quote from dkings »
#foreshadowing
I would again like to point out that, in 1759, Proph conveniently used Iso's votecount that came shortly after he unvoted EP so that his name wasn't linked.
Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I pulled up that votecount because I remembered a votecount that had Deathjoey/KamikazeArchon/Wildfire393 on the same wagon and was trying to find it.
Quote from dkings »
Also, look at the way he's backtracking on Rodemy in 1796 now that Killjoy's watch result is in the discussion and EP has chimed in with his opinion that Rodemy has to be lying. He has spent most of the day telling us that Rodemy is 100% clear through interactions (not to mention that he should know better than to apply behavioral rules to Rodemy considering he damn-near lost to him in Apocalypse).
I'm comparing interactions to Rodemy - Rodemy's behavior in itself is chaotic and off the charts wild.
I'm going off of memory here, but when people like killjoy state in very confident tones "Rodemy must therefore be the redirector" based on some mechanics stuff I don't understand, I sit up and take notice. I begin doubting myself and my reads.
---
So, tl;dr stuff and summations:
1. dkingsland, I know I asked this in my wall, but what exactly caused you to unvote Deathjoey in his catch-up wall?
2. I want KamikazeArchon to get in here. Him being absent when he's one of the two main PoE targets is concerning, but it's the holidays. Regardless, want to hear more from his slot - KA has had weak analysis all game.
3. I want Sir Karn to play the game or replace out. We can't deal with a useless slot this late in the game, and I know he's been burned out on mafia for a while. The game you just modded ended, so please do us a favor and either contribute or be replaced by a player who can. Being the inventor doesn't cut it.
4. Would like Axel, EP, and killjoy to comment on me vs dkings.
How can i be the redirector AND have targeted godot (via redirect) AND be a rolecop?
I targeted ******* wildfire and got redirected to godot. I am suspicious of people who want to lynch me because i am obviously still alive so i can be mislynched, which seems to be the plan for today.
Capeesh?
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Rodemy Pizza
It’s not the best choice, but it’s a choice nonetheless
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Ok. I'm workinjg on like 4 hours of sleep right now so I'll go to bed and hash this all out in the morning. I've been thinking about this game, and something seems off. Not sure what.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I haven't really clamed anything except my Vengeance trigger yesterday. But I'll go ahead, in case it matters for anyone else.
Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla. Trigger was to cast the Hammer Vote on a Mafia, which was achieved yesterday. I now also have a Vig. Shot, which I did not use last night.
I've got lots of family visiting for the Holidays, so, I can't spend much time on this game for a few days.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I haven't really clamed anything except my Vengeance trigger yesterday. But I'll go ahead, in case it matters for anyone else.
Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla. Trigger was to cast the Hammer Vote on a Mafia, which was achieved yesterday. I now also have a Vig. Shot, which I did not use last night.
I've got lots of family visiting for the Holidays, so, I can't spend much time on this game for a few days.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I haven't really clamed anything except my Vengeance trigger yesterday. But I'll go ahead, in case it matters for anyone else.
Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla. Trigger was to cast the Hammer Vote on a Mafia, which was achieved yesterday. I now also have a Vig. Shot, which I did not use last night.
I've got lots of family visiting for the Holidays, so, I can't spend much time on this game for a few days.
Why did you not use the vig shot?
(1) We had a lot of Vig Shots that were supposedly going to be flying around last night anyway.
(2) I was concerned about too much death/mis-vigging.
(3) My best guess was Wildfire, and I thought there was a decent chance he was getting vigged anyway and didn't want to double-up and waste my shot.
(4) I thought my shot would be better informed tonight with another Night/Day having passed.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I haven't really clamed anything except my Vengeance trigger yesterday. But I'll go ahead, in case it matters for anyone else.
Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla. Trigger was to cast the Hammer Vote on a Mafia, which was achieved yesterday. I now also have a Vig. Shot, which I did not use last night.
I've got lots of family visiting for the Holidays, so, I can't spend much time on this game for a few days.
There is something poetic in having Dking and Proph shoot at each other tonight. Given that they are each wanting the other dead, one assumes neither would object to such a plan. I have to believe the re-direct thing was a 1-shot deal, and even if it somehow wasn't, that Wildfire was the one who had it, and he's dead now. Karn could gift something to EP, who's virtually immune at this point. I could even tag Karn to close that possible loop.
It seems hard to lose through this (famous last words) though if there were 2 scum still left it could potentially mess with plans.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I understand it's the holidays, but I would still like these stuff to be acknowledged:
Quote from Prophylaxis »
1. dkingsland, I know I asked this in my wall, but what exactly caused you to unvote Deathjoey in his catch-up wall?
2. I want KamikazeArchon to get in here. Him being absent when he's one of the two main PoE targets is concerning, but it's the holidays. Regardless, want to hear more from his slot - KA has had weak analysis all game.
3. I want Sir Karn to play the game or replace out. We can't deal with a useless slot this late in the game, and I know he's been burned out on mafia for a while. The game you just modded ended, so please do us a favor and either contribute or be replaced by a player who can. Being the inventor doesn't cut it.
4. Would like Axel, EP, and killjoy to comment on me vs dkings.
I want dkings lynched Today and I'm not willing to agree to having dkings and I shoot each other at Night. It's likely that scum have /some/ sort of way to interfere with the vig shots and I'm not willing to bet the game on anything mechanical. dkings can just use the protection item Karn gave him as well.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I haven't really clamed anything except my Vengeance trigger yesterday. But I'll go ahead, in case it matters for anyone else.
Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla. Trigger was to cast the Hammer Vote on a Mafia, which was achieved yesterday. I now also have a Vig. Shot, which I did not use last night.
I've got lots of family visiting for the Holidays, so, I can't spend much time on this game for a few days.
Why did you not use the vig shot?
Why is this what you care about?
Because vig shots are considered very high value and I was suspicious about why someone would choose not to use it. However, Axelrod's reasoning seems legit.
Yes, my analysis has been lacking this game. I feel less involved in games where I am vanilla, and I kind of put this game out of my head after Day 2 when I expected to get killed.
Now that I think about it, Axelrod is the only other player to claim Tasen, right? That is likely to be true, since I haven't triggered vengeance yet, therefore at least one other Tasen must still be alive.
If Axelrod is town, I think Proph is town. Proph claimed a cop shot on Axel, and at this point in the game, I'm not sure I see mafia being so willing to clear a townie. That in turn makes Karn town, because mafia gifting a cop shot to a townie would be ludicrous.
I want dkings lynched Today and I'm not willing to agree to having dkings and I shoot each other at Night. It's likely that scum have /some/ sort of way to interfere with the vig shots and I'm not willing to bet the game on anything mechanical. dkings can just use the protection item Karn gave him as well.
See, this reasoning just isn't valid. We've already seen two scum ways to interfere with vig shots (Ascetic + Redirect). What else are you imagining? And if Dking used his "protect" device when told not to (1) he'd get lynched the next day and (2) You'd still be alive anyway. Plus, where do you get that this is "betting the game?" Hypothetically, if we DIDN'T lynch Dking, he is who you would shoot anyway, yes?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I want dkings lynched Today and I'm not willing to agree to having dkings and I shoot each other at Night. It's likely that scum have /some/ sort of way to interfere with the vig shots and I'm not willing to bet the game on anything mechanical. dkings can just use the protection item Karn gave him as well.
See, this reasoning just isn't valid. We've already seen two scum ways to interfere with vig shots (Ascetic + Redirect). What else are you imagining? And if Dking used his "protect" device when told not to (1) he'd get lynched the next day and (2) You'd still be alive anyway. Plus, where do you get that this is "betting the game?" Hypothetically, if we DIDN'T lynch Dking, he is who you would shoot anyway, yes?
Keep in mind that I mostly skimmed over the killjoy reveal/redirector talk so I don't understand most of it. My experience has shown me that speculating on scum night actions always ends up going badly, and the premise that Wildfire had a redirect is very shaky - it makes no sense to me as a role designer why you wouldn't list that as part of the role. I'm just not willing to accept that.
I have no idea why a behavioral + interaction case isn't enough for you guys to lynch dkings. Axelrod, please answer the following questions.
1. Who do you want to lynch Today and why? All of your last posts have been mechanics related. Please pull up behavioral evidence for this one.
2. Why do you not want to lynch dkings? Again, this ties into the first question.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I want dkings lynched Today and I'm not willing to agree to having dkings and I shoot each other at Night. It's likely that scum have /some/ sort of way to interfere with the vig shots and I'm not willing to bet the game on anything mechanical. dkings can just use the protection item Karn gave him as well.
See, this reasoning just isn't valid. We've already seen two scum ways to interfere with vig shots (Ascetic + Redirect). What else are you imagining? And if Dking used his "protect" device when told not to (1) he'd get lynched the next day and (2) You'd still be alive anyway. Plus, where do you get that this is "betting the game?" Hypothetically, if we DIDN'T lynch Dking, he is who you would shoot anyway, yes?
Keep in mind that I mostly skimmed over the killjoy reveal/redirector talk so I don't understand most of it. My experience has shown me that speculating on scum night actions always ends up going badly, and the premise that Wildfire had a redirect is very shaky - it makes no sense to me as a role designer why you wouldn't list that as part of the role. I'm just not willing to accept that.
When you give me a better explanation for why Wildfire and Rodemy both targeted the same person, then maybe we could have a discussion about it. I can see a role designer not having a person's "Vengeance Triggered" ability show up as part of their role.
I have no idea why a behavioral + interaction case isn't enough for you guys to lynch dkings. Axelrod, please answer the following questions.
1. Who do you want to lynch Today and why? All of your last posts have been mechanics related. Please pull up behavioral evidence for this one.
I am probably going along with a KA lynch, even though he wasn't my first choice at the start, because he's actually been pretty bad today, whether because of apathy or because he's scum, I don't know. He's claimed Vanilla and is basically a process of elimination lynch. Were it not for all our Vig. shots I might feel different, but I think this way can still wrap it up regardless of what he flips.
2. Why do you not want to lynch dkings? Again, this ties into the first question.
If I'm picking between the two of you I'm picking you. And that's just based off of every post Dkings has made this entire game which read as town to me vs. multiples of yours that didn't.
I'll shoot KA if by some miracle dkings flips town, but I really think that dkings is our final scum member.
Then we still win when you shoot HIM tonight instead. I fail to see how you can have a problem with this.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I still want to hear what you saw in catch-up post that made it "good enough for now" since I read the post and found it woefully lacking.
I was voting Deathjoey for two reasons: 1) a naked vote on Tanarin + position on wagon, and 2) heavy lurking. His catch-up post wasn't the only reason why I unvoted him. Cyan pointed me toward the post where DJ voted Tanarin, which I re-read and noticed something I hadn't caught before:
#41 Tanarin votes Rodemy, which looks like low hanging fruit. Interestingly calls proph out on overexplaining his reasoning, which could be taken as coaching.
That was from earlier in the post, unattached to the actual vote on Tanarin, which meant it actually wasn't a naked vote. And his catch-up at least showed he was putting in some effort. I'm not a fan of lynching lurkers on D1, it's a crapshoot and even if you get lucky and hit scum, you learn virtually nothing.
I would again like to point out that, in 1759, Proph conveniently used Iso's votecount that came shortly after he unvoted EP so that his name wasn't linked.
Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I pulled up that votecount because I remembered a votecount that had Deathjoey/KamikazeArchon/Wildfire393 on the same wagon and was trying to find it.
This explanation is lacking. I know from previous games that you keep your own vote counts in your notes (you posted one on D1 when you asked people who weren't voting whether they would rather lynch Cythare or Killjoy). This still seems awfully convenient, especially from you.
Since Proph wants to talk interactions with dead scum, I find these two posts in particular to be quite off:
Tonight is gonna br a *****storm.... i can feel it.. (in ma butt)
Do you confirm that you're shooting either
a. KamikazeArchon
b. The group of {KamikazeArchon, Wildfire}?
Would rather you shoot just Kamikaze since I think Wildfire is town (and have no idea why people think otherwise) but please confirm.
This post is worded incredibly awkwardly, for one, but I like the way Proph leaves open the possibility of vigging Wildfire while stressing that he must be town. Again... makes plenty of sense if scum have a redirect ability in their bag of tricks.
If we're lynching Deathjoey, I want Rodemy to shoot either Kamikaze or Wildfire.
Out of curiosity, why would you put Proph in Blue here?
And what kind of softball is this from Wildfire?
Moving on, I only see two realistic scenarios here:
1) Rodemy is lying and is scum
2) Proph and Karn are both scum, Karn gifted Wildfire a redirect item on N1
If you think Rodemy is town, you should be voting Proph (or Karn I guess, but scum!Karn pretty much can't exist without scum!Proph). If you think Proph is town, you should be voting Rodemy.
I am also fine with the idea of Proph and I vigging each other. I have already confirmed with Iso that I cannot use my vengeance ability and Karn's item in the same night. Proph and/or Karn are welcome to ask Iso the same question if they want.
I've been tossing an idea around in my head about using our vigs as a second lynch. We tell two of them to shoot someone we specify, and with two they can't be rollblocked.
I feel like it's gotta be KA, Rodemy or Proph today. KA feels like he's trying to coast out of my mind though. I'm not a fan of that.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
After reviewing the two scum flips:
1) I feel better about Rodemy. Wildfire was gunning for him too strongly.
2) I was focusing on dkings/Proph interactions. Both are weak, but DKL is notable for being up in Wildfire's town reads, and eventually moving to "conftown", even though the only specific notes Wildfire had were negative ones.
I find it unlikely that both DKL and Proph are scum, so: vote dkingsland
KA, what do you think about us lynching you and then vigging other people? We've been talking about it and you seem to be lacking in reactions.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
KA, what do you think about us lynching you and then vigging other people? We've been talking about it and you seem to be lacking in reactions.
I think lynching me is a bad idea, but I have no way to prove I'm town, so I don't see how I'm going to convince anyone else of that. And losing a vanilla isn't the worst thing in the world. I'd care more if I was a cop or something. I figure all I can do now is dump what little analysis I have and hope it ends up being useful. And I don't see anything obviously wrong with any of the vig plans. They all involve dkings getting shot, so I don't have anything else to offer there.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Ok, so he doesn't shoot. Fin. But I feel like we need tonot just shoot randomly. Hence why I suggested two people shoot one target and no one else does...to avoid too many people dying. If there are 4 scum, and we mislynch today and two of the vig shots hit town we lose with the scum's NK. 8-1=7-3=4.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
This just makes more sense. And Proph and DKing can poetically shoot each other. I will shoot whoever I want. Or nobody.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
But if there's a role blocker it'll mess with all our heads. I feel we need to coordinate here. We need two people with the same target to avoid role block shenanigans.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
But if there's a role blocker it'll mess with all our heads. I feel we need to coordinate here. We need two people with the same target to avoid role block shenanigans.
If there are 2 scum left, and 1 of them is a role-blocker (which I don't think we have any evidence for yet), and NONE of them are contained within the set of {KA, Proph, DKing), then we are in serious trouble. Then we probably lose.
But other than that, I don't see how this goes horribly wrong.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I think that the amount of blockable roles is evidence to at least worry about it. Especially if Karn is town, but even if he isn't a role blocker can stop the abilities he gives to town.
You don't think a role block makes sense for vengeance on a scum, given all these roles?
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
All right, getting a little silly here. Let's move. I still don't see where what i'm suggesting could be a bad idea.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
All right, getting a little silly here. Let's move. Still don't see how where what I'm saying can go too horribly wrong.
And Happy New Year!
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Let me put it bluntly; If Axel and I are agreeing on something, we probably have more experience than the rest of the town combined and everyone needs to seriously consider why a different direction makes more sense.
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ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ
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I explained why I think one of you two are the last scum. You're trying to draw comparisons from another game with a completely different set of circumstances.
Look at my progression with Axelrod Yesterday. I started the Day off convinced that Axelrod was scum, but you'll notice that towards the later and end of the Day I completely dropped all pressure against him, despite listing him as my top scum read in my big analysis post. Why? Because I knew I could just cop Axelrod.
I completely failed to do that in the endgame of Celestial. Plus, that's pretty much textbook optimal town play if you're going to be mislynched.
WRONG
You pushed Deathjoey until a few posts later when you said:
I still want to hear what you saw in catch-up post that made it "good enough for now" since I read the post and found it woefully lacking.
That's from Apocalypse Mafia, a game I played /a year ago/. I'm no longer that ham-fisted about not responding to strong scum reads (see this!) Point taken on the "analyze and make statements" part, but I'll whip out a Megs quote from Celestial:
Your interactions with Wildfire and Deathjoey are shoddy, and that's what I'm concerned about.
Truth be told, I wanted Rodemy to commit to a single vig target because I didn't want to end up dead with a cop shot.
Read through the chain of events. I postulated that the scum were lurking before Sir Karn hinted his role to me.
Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I pulled up that votecount because I remembered a votecount that had Deathjoey/KamikazeArchon/Wildfire393 on the same wagon and was trying to find it.
I'm comparing interactions to Rodemy - Rodemy's behavior in itself is chaotic and off the charts wild.
I'm going off of memory here, but when people like killjoy state in very confident tones "Rodemy must therefore be the redirector" based on some mechanics stuff I don't understand, I sit up and take notice. I begin doubting myself and my reads.
---
So, tl;dr stuff and summations:
1. dkingsland, I know I asked this in my wall, but what exactly caused you to unvote Deathjoey in his catch-up wall?
2. I want KamikazeArchon to get in here. Him being absent when he's one of the two main PoE targets is concerning, but it's the holidays. Regardless, want to hear more from his slot - KA has had weak analysis all game.
3. I want Sir Karn to play the game or replace out. We can't deal with a useless slot this late in the game, and I know he's been burned out on mafia for a while. The game you just modded ended, so please do us a favor and either contribute or be replaced by a player who can. Being the inventor doesn't cut it.
4. Would like Axel, EP, and killjoy to comment on me vs dkings.
I targeted ******* wildfire and got redirected to godot. I am suspicious of people who want to lynch me because i am obviously still alive so i can be mislynched, which seems to be the plan for today.
Capeesh?
I trust you cop result so I'm not worried about it really.
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unvote, vote KA
I think we're in a case of people attacking people simply because they are active in the thread while there is a silent group of useless lumps.
dkingsland967 (2): Prophylaxis, Rodemy
Rodemy (1): Killjoy
Prophylaxis (1): dkingsland967
KamikazeArchon (1): emo_pinata
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Axel: What's your claim again?
Tasen Commander, Town Vanilla. Trigger was to cast the Hammer Vote on a Mafia, which was achieved yesterday. I now also have a Vig. Shot, which I did not use last night.
I've got lots of family visiting for the Holidays, so, I can't spend much time on this game for a few days.
Those two are pushing my lynch today. Like i said, i believe i am alive still so i can be mislynched. Anyone oushing my lynch will be scumspects.
II meant to remove that.
unvote.
Three we go.
(1) We had a lot of Vig Shots that were supposedly going to be flying around last night anyway.
(2) I was concerned about too much death/mis-vigging.
(3) My best guess was Wildfire, and I thought there was a decent chance he was getting vigged anyway and didn't want to double-up and waste my shot.
(4) I thought my shot would be better informed tonight with another Night/Day having passed.
It seems hard to lose through this (famous last words) though if there were 2 scum still left it could potentially mess with plans.
I want dkings lynched Today and I'm not willing to agree to having dkings and I shoot each other at Night. It's likely that scum have /some/ sort of way to interfere with the vig shots and I'm not willing to bet the game on anything mechanical. dkings can just use the protection item Karn gave him as well.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yes, my analysis has been lacking this game. I feel less involved in games where I am vanilla, and I kind of put this game out of my head after Day 2 when I expected to get killed.
Now that I think about it, Axelrod is the only other player to claim Tasen, right? That is likely to be true, since I haven't triggered vengeance yet, therefore at least one other Tasen must still be alive.
If Axelrod is town, I think Proph is town. Proph claimed a cop shot on Axel, and at this point in the game, I'm not sure I see mafia being so willing to clear a townie. That in turn makes Karn town, because mafia gifting a cop shot to a townie would be ludicrous.
I am still trying to figure out Rodemy.
See, this reasoning just isn't valid. We've already seen two scum ways to interfere with vig shots (Ascetic + Redirect). What else are you imagining? And if Dking used his "protect" device when told not to (1) he'd get lynched the next day and (2) You'd still be alive anyway. Plus, where do you get that this is "betting the game?" Hypothetically, if we DIDN'T lynch Dking, he is who you would shoot anyway, yes?
Keep in mind that I mostly skimmed over the killjoy reveal/redirector talk so I don't understand most of it. My experience has shown me that speculating on scum night actions always ends up going badly, and the premise that Wildfire had a redirect is very shaky - it makes no sense to me as a role designer why you wouldn't list that as part of the role. I'm just not willing to accept that.
I have no idea why a behavioral + interaction case isn't enough for you guys to lynch dkings. Axelrod, please answer the following questions.
1. Who do you want to lynch Today and why? All of your last posts have been mechanics related. Please pull up behavioral evidence for this one.
2. Why do you not want to lynch dkings? Again, this ties into the first question.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/577731-iji-mafia-2-with-a-vengeance-day-3-deaths-in-the?comment=1732
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/577731-iji-mafia-2-with-a-vengeance-day-3-deaths-in-the?comment=1758
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/577731-iji-mafia-2-with-a-vengeance-day-3-deaths-in-the?comment=1780
The most important part is the interaction case on the bottom. First post is mostly a tl;dr.
As of now, any further 24-hour periods that pass without a post will reduce the deadline by a day.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'll shoot KA if by some miracle dkings flips town, but I really think that dkings is our final scum member.
When you give me a better explanation for why Wildfire and Rodemy both targeted the same person, then maybe we could have a discussion about it. I can see a role designer not having a person's "Vengeance Triggered" ability show up as part of their role.
I am probably going along with a KA lynch, even though he wasn't my first choice at the start, because he's actually been pretty bad today, whether because of apathy or because he's scum, I don't know. He's claimed Vanilla and is basically a process of elimination lynch. Were it not for all our Vig. shots I might feel different, but I think this way can still wrap it up regardless of what he flips.
If I'm picking between the two of you I'm picking you. And that's just based off of every post Dkings has made this entire game which read as town to me vs. multiples of yours that didn't.
Then we still win when you shoot HIM tonight instead. I fail to see how you can have a problem with this.
I was voting Deathjoey for two reasons: 1) a naked vote on Tanarin + position on wagon, and 2) heavy lurking. His catch-up post wasn't the only reason why I unvoted him. Cyan pointed me toward the post where DJ voted Tanarin, which I re-read and noticed something I hadn't caught before:
That was from earlier in the post, unattached to the actual vote on Tanarin, which meant it actually wasn't a naked vote. And his catch-up at least showed he was putting in some effort. I'm not a fan of lynching lurkers on D1, it's a crapshoot and even if you get lucky and hit scum, you learn virtually nothing.
This explanation is lacking. I know from previous games that you keep your own vote counts in your notes (you posted one on D1 when you asked people who weren't voting whether they would rather lynch Cythare or Killjoy). This still seems awfully convenient, especially from you.
Since Proph wants to talk interactions with dead scum, I find these two posts in particular to be quite off:
This post is worded incredibly awkwardly, for one, but I like the way Proph leaves open the possibility of vigging Wildfire while stressing that he must be town. Again... makes plenty of sense if scum have a redirect ability in their bag of tricks.
And what kind of softball is this from Wildfire?
Moving on, I only see two realistic scenarios here:
1) Rodemy is lying and is scum
2) Proph and Karn are both scum, Karn gifted Wildfire a redirect item on N1
If you think Rodemy is town, you should be voting Proph (or Karn I guess, but scum!Karn pretty much can't exist without scum!Proph). If you think Proph is town, you should be voting Rodemy.
I am also fine with the idea of Proph and I vigging each other. I have already confirmed with Iso that I cannot use my vengeance ability and Karn's item in the same night. Proph and/or Karn are welcome to ask Iso the same question if they want.
I've been tossing an idea around in my head about using our vigs as a second lynch. We tell two of them to shoot someone we specify, and with two they can't be rollblocked.
I feel like it's gotta be KA, Rodemy or Proph today. KA feels like he's trying to coast out of my mind though. I'm not a fan of that.
KA's fine for me.
1) I feel better about Rodemy. Wildfire was gunning for him too strongly.
2) I was focusing on dkings/Proph interactions. Both are weak, but DKL is notable for being up in Wildfire's town reads, and eventually moving to "conftown", even though the only specific notes Wildfire had were negative ones.
I find it unlikely that both DKL and Proph are scum, so:
vote dkingsland
Then why were you pushing for Deathjoey to be lynched D1?
dkings is at L-2, guys. Let's lynch him for the win.
I still think my two vig shot idea is the way to go. I'd prefer to shoot prof.
KAs defeatism makes me think maybe it's him instead of Prophy maybe though.
Let's coordinate before I vote him though so we can get another suspect if KA is town.
The lunch is KA and everyone needs to take a shot that has one tonight.
Maybe Proph and Axel can shoot him tonight.
This just makes more sense. And Proph and DKing can poetically shoot each other. I will shoot whoever I want. Or nobody.
If there are 2 scum left, and 1 of them is a role-blocker (which I don't think we have any evidence for yet), and NONE of them are contained within the set of {KA, Proph, DKing), then we are in serious trouble. Then we probably lose.
But other than that, I don't see how this goes horribly wrong.
You don't think a role block makes sense for vengeance on a scum, given all these roles?
And Happy New Year!
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player