Wow Curse really is the worst thing to happen to this site.
@Rhand
There are only finite reasons to suspect someone is scum. If someone feels they've all been mentioned, how can you invalidate their scum read for not coming up with another reason?
@Generic: i am not assuming Pink is town, no. She still is a scumread.
But I really think GG was caught scum with that awful post of his.
I think Lngrrr has reasons to sheep the wagon as scum both if pink is town and if she is scum.
He seems to think she is going to get lynched anyhow because of her play.
@Scarbo: I am not invalidating his scumread. I just don't give him townpoints for it. It's too easy. And look at his posts: he has no other explanation for his read than thhat oher think she's scum.
He's a replacement and is bringing us nothing new. Town replacements should bring fresh views to a game.
I don't get that impression from LNG's posts at all. To me it reads like he genuinely thinks that Pink is scum. It's possible that he knows this because they're both scum, but I definitely don't get a 'she is going to get lynched because of her play' vibe from him. Can you expound on that?
I'm kind of torn on LnG right now and sort of waiting for him to get all the way caught up.
My initial reaction is that I agree he is taking the easy way out as scum. ISO his posts and it looks like he is too certain of Pink being scum. And early on he has town reads on Generic and Hawk for their interactions with Pink. Like he votes her and is super sold on her without even being a third of the way through the Day. Does town place that vote there before being caught up? I guess if it were me, the answer is definitely no.
At the same time, it doesn't make sense to me in the world where LnG and Pink are both scum, that LnG would be that desperate to bus Pink before being all the way caught up not knowing if her wagon is dissolved or not. LnG could still be scum, but I think if he is, it's probably less likely that Pink is too. Obviously it is WIFOMy and I can see the argument for it being distancing.
I also browsed through Day 1 of Archer where Rhand was town and took some pressure. A few things that I noticed:
1. He ended RVS before even half the game had checked in with a vote that he admitted was weak, but reasoned that he wanted to get discussion going. In this game he states that he likes to let RVS play out longer which is counter to what town Rhand did in Archer. He does state he likes RVS tells in both games.
2. He seemed a lot more invested in Archer. Posting analysis early and pushing people.
3. In Archer he was a lot more defensive of votes against him and asked for reasoning. This seems contrary to this game where he seems to be brushing off the votes and having town reads on his wagon.
It's certainly not a caught-scum level analysis, but he feels a lot different to me here. I still think Rhand is scum and want to lynch him toDay.
I don't get that impression from LNG's posts at all. To me it reads like he genuinely thinks that Pink is scum. It's possible that he knows this because they're both scum, but I definitely don't get a 'she is going to get lynched because of her play' vibe from him. Can you expound on that?
He keeps asking whether there's anyone who does not think she is scum. That gives me the idea that he's sure that she's going to get lynched sooner or later.
I also browsed through Day 1 of Archer where Rhand was town and took some pressure. A few things that I noticed:
1. He ended RVS before even half the game had checked in with a vote that he admitted was weak, but reasoned that he wanted to get discussion going. In this game he states that he likes to let RVS play out longer which is counter to what town Rhand did in Archer. He does state he likes RVS tells in both games.
2. He seemed a lot more invested in Archer. Posting analysis early and pushing people.
3. In Archer he was a lot more defensive of votes against him and asked for reasoning. This seems contrary to this game where he seems to be brushing off the votes and having town reads on his wagon.
It's certainly not a caught-scum level analysis, but he feels a lot different to me here. I still think Rhand is scum and want to lynch him toDay.
This is all of the evidence anyone should need to vote for Rhand. Like..what are you guys waiting for? Him to just give up and say 'I AM SCUM YOU GOT ME'? That isn't going to happen.
@Cyan: Someone pinned me for something similar to #1 (having different opinions in different games) and I am guilty of doing #2. Yet, I am not scum and you yourself feel this is the case as well. Why do you feel Rhand is scum for those reasons while I am not?
My last post was @Cyan.
There are so many bad meta arguments against me and you all are too stubborn to see that they are bad.
This is mighty frustrating.
Hunger's argument is a GREAT one. You have posted multiple times since he made that post, and have not even acknowledged it.
I concur with this. You need a stellar counter argument or I am voting you.
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Hunger's summary is spot-on, and this is also how Rhand acted on D2 of Marvel Madness 2 when I first started advocating his lynch. He handwaved the case and proceeded on as though it was a certainty someone else was going to be lynched.
If you're really going to lynch someone for meta reasons, count me out. I want no part of it except for to laugh at you in the strong probability he flips town.
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If you're really going to lynch someone for meta reasons, count me out. I want no part of it except for to laugh at you in the strong probability he flips town.
These lynches happen regularly on here, and are correct more often than not. If you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you other than that you're in the wrong place.
My last post was @Cyan.
There are so many bad meta arguments against me and you all are too stubborn to see that they are bad.
This is mighty frustrating.
What about the non-meta arguments? Of which there are several.
There are no non-meta arguments against me?
Hunger is just a bunch of extra meta nonsense.
Cyan is full of crap if he finds Hunger's argument great. He accused me of the opposite.
Really, if you want your doc to die based off crappy meta nonsense, then lynch me.
Oh and tn, pink, lngr and maybe also Chris are scum for staying off this oh so juicy mislynch wagon.
Well probably not all of them because KJ and Wheat are also still scum, but lynch all of these and we probably win.
Oh and tn, pink, lngr and maybe also Chris are scum for staying off this oh so juicy mislynch wagon.
Well probably not all of them because KJ and Wheat are also still scum, but lynch all of these and we probably win.
This seems like honest frustration though.
Still, I'll wait for a counterclaim(or lack of one).
I also browsed through Day 1 of Archer where Rhand was town and took some pressure. A few things that I noticed:
1. He ended RVS before even half the game had checked in with a vote that he admitted was weak, but reasoned that he wanted to get discussion going. In this game he states that he likes to let RVS play out longer which is counter to what town Rhand did in Archer. He does state he likes RVS tells in both games.
2. He seemed a lot more invested in Archer. Posting analysis early and pushing people.
3. In Archer he was a lot more defensive of votes against him and asked for reasoning. This seems contrary to this game where he seems to be brushing off the votes and having town reads on his wagon.
It's certainly not a caught-scum level analysis, but he feels a lot different to me here. I still think Rhand is scum and want to lynch him toDay.
I probably should still adress this.
1. There's a difference between ending rvs after 3 posts and what I did there. Pink's tell was not big enough to start from here.
2. I keep repeating myself, but GG disappeared and he is the clear scum of the Day. The prolific posters are town and i had to wait for Wheat and KillJoy to post nonsense for new good leads.
3. Am I not asking for reasoning then? I analysed my ****ing wagon for you. In Archer you saw me doing town distancing with Generic. That's something completely different.
And of course it's the Dr. claim... I mean what else do you claim as scum that is looking more and more like the lynch on D1? Worst-case you get the actual Dr. to claim, best case there isn't a Dr. and you endgame off a low-risk claim (see Cyan in the aforementioned Archer game).
That said,
Unvote
For now.
@Rhand - Why did you feel the need to claim right now when you aren't even at L-2?
If Rhand flipped town I was going to look into pushing the lurkers (citric, tn, scarbo, fulcrum, Killjoy...). tn's last post is awful pending Rhand's claim holding up, which I expect it to.
I also still don't like Pink with her shady clear of Rhand earlier and a lot of her play, but she has had a couple good posts recently too...
Want to look over the Rhand wagon though. dking, I would like to see you analyze the wagon too if you can?
Oh and tn, pink, lngr and maybe also Chris are scum for staying off this oh so juicy mislynch wagon.
Well probably not all of them because KJ and Wheat are also still scum, but lynch all of these and we probably win.
Yeah, because I have totally not discussed my thoughts on you over dozens of posts or anything <_<.
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I didn't think it was too much to ask for you to stop hand waving. On a very related notes I don't lynch protection claims day one barring counter claims, so you're completely off the table for now.
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Surely that's an easy one to let the night sort out. Why impose a counterclaim requirement and risk the actual doc is Rhand is lying?
Notice how killjoy hasn't acknowledged my case against him. Notice his absense. Citric is another one. Ignored the case, promises much and then slides back I of the shadows. Pink makes fleeting appearances where she imposes her opinions on the game, something that is at least in her favour.
And since I made a point of refusing to interact with the player in this game with the tywin lannister avatar for the rest of the time we both remain alive I will just say someone changed their tune didn't they. And the amount of people gearing up to vote Rhand with the reason being 'hunger makes a good point' is shocking. Cos it places all responsibility on hunger and makes for wagon analysis to be side stepped as everyone has the same reason for joining it. Atrocious.
Lynch killjoy. Let the night phase decide the rest.
To be clear, Hunger's post re: Rhand made Hunger appear more town to me, regardless of Rhand's alignment.
If someone else is the real Doc, they need to claim, period. You don't leave things like this to chance. We have no idea how much information will be revealed when a person dies at night. Every townie should be willing to trade themself(regardless of their role), 1 for 1, for a guaranteed scum lynch.
Unrelatedly, there is nothing wrong with when Rhand claimed. He is correct that he was going to end up at L-2 again anyway. His claim still bugs me(Archer probably has alot to do with this), but if no one counterclaims we'll move on and let night periods work this out.
Also to the user who may be named after the opposite of unique, I will simply say that I do not consider myself a rigid player. I often get things wrong, and have to make adjustments as I get new information. I don't think that's a weakness, but a strength.
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I will be V/LA tonight through 8/22, but I'm throwing it out there now that if no one CC's Rhand I am fully behind a Killjoy lynch. His initial vote on Rhand was bad and the lurking ever since is worse.
I didn't think it was too much to ask for you to stop hand waving. On a very related notes I don't lynch protection claims day one barring counter claims, so you're completely off the table for now.
Handwaving? There are no real points against me. It's all unbased meta.
Perhaps this is true from your perspective. You, if you are town, know you are town. You also know your own play better than any other person possibly could. I thought a lot of the points early against you were poor, but the 'unbased meta' sounded bad and I wanted you to address it, which you ended up doing after your frustration spilled over. If you are town, and the only way you defend yourself is to go "no" over and over, you cannot expect other people to simply go "well the man said no, I guess he can't be scum." That's not how the game of mafia works.
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Yeh I know. Which is why I did adress Hunger's post.
And i think I did respond to all of them? Sometimes there simply isn't more to say than 'you're wrong' :/
Especially Cyan is just incredible. He's a good player so he should realise that trying to meta me while never having seen my scumgame just doesn't work. It's the same thing I did with DcIII, and I realised that that wasn't right. Cyan just stays stubborn.
I think his frustration is null, getting lynched day 1 is frustrating no matter the alignment.
I find it strange that TN backed rhand when rhand had a very strong argument against him. Seems like he had inside info to get town cred if rhand was town or defending a buddy if scum. Let's hear why you didn't like the rhand wagon or meta reads TN.
When someone's at L-2 I thought that means within intent to hammer?
These three posts are in a row for Citric over the course of a day. He votes Rhand, says he is 'alarmed at the speed of the wagon', and then is confused why Rhand has not claimed.
What?
##unvote: Generic
##vote: Citric
'Hey guys I don't like how fast this lynch has gone but I'll keep my vote on it and then wonder why this guy isn't claiming yet.'
That's... not how that generally works.
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Hawk - I know I'm town and I don't know about DCIII. I certainly don't know why you'd say there's a reasonable chance of us both being town but since your case against seems to rest on being scum it won't go anywhere.
You sir are drunk.
Hmm... what gives you the impression of drunkenness? This could be important.
Rhand claimed Doc. Would he risk faking it right now? Maybe, if he wanted to out the doc. Interestingly, Cyan is quick to call Rhand's reaction honest frustration. I'm not sure one can come to that conclusion yet.
Top three scumspects (disregarding Rhand pending a cc) are Cyan, Pink, DK, with a shoutout to hawk depending on his answer to my question
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Because calling somebody drunk is better then saying something more condescending. If a player says something, I repeat it back to the them and they call me scum for it, they are obviously not in their right state of mind.
I mean, I did vote before it suddenly formed even quicker afterwards. Doesn't mean I want to unvote, I just wanted to point out that it was forming oh too quickly
Quick recap on Pink-related stuff from first 5 pages.
Post 3: Pink jumps in with the first post, "voting" the mod Karn. (I put votes in quotes because she tried using [vote]Sir Karn[/vote], which obviously doesn't work here.
Post 13: Refuses to answer Generic's question about who she is. Given the [vote] thing, either she plays on MS or wants it to look like she plays on MS.
Post 20: Said she wouldn't answer Generic's question earlier, then says "perhaps I am happy to piss you off", and votes Generic. Feels OMGUSy. Let's see what Pink does with that vote later.
Post 49: Gets run up, then jumps off Generic, again explaining that she is an alt and doesn't want to give clues. Then she votes GG as prob scum, saying Cyan is probscum too. What was the point in the Generic vote again?
Post 55: In response to Generic's question, Pink says it was RVS, and that nothing that early should be viewed seriously. I call BS on that.
(Here, Sir Chris and Fulcrum say that Cyan needs to explain Pink's scumminess, as it isn't apparent. I don't see how it isn't.)
Post 88: Cyan explains why Pink is scummy. /Barn this whole post.
Post 94: DC3 says he is willing to vote Cyan or Pink, but curiously enough chooses Cyan, even though there was current pressure on Pink. Red flags going off for me on DC3 here.
@DC3, why Cyan there instead of Pink?
Post 112: Weird post by DC3 here... he rails on Cyan for saying Pink was "obvscum", and points out why it was only debatably scum. Then he goes onto to point out why he thought Pink was scum... using a reason Cyan noted.
Post 120: Wheat states that Pink doesn't care about determining alignments. (I agree.)
Ok this is just to the end of Page 5. Pink is just overwhelmingly
I mean, I did vote before it suddenly formed even quicker afterwards. Doesn't mean I want to unvote, I just wanted to point out that it was forming oh too quickly
And so what is your conclusion from it forming quickly? Obviously you think it's important.
Post 128: Calls out Cyan for not explaining his mindset... even though Cyan just explained his mindset. Then votes him. This post sucks out loud, like, operatic fat lady singer outloud.
Post 130: Calls out Scarbo for ignoring the wagons and nakedvoting Citric...
Post 132: Then quotes Seppel's "Finally I'm town for once", says no townie says this, then votes Seppel. After just saying Cyan was scum. It doesn't feel like Pink is jumping around on people to get pressure because she's trying to get a grip on the game, and poking people for reactions. It feels like she is just voting people and hoping the wagon forms after her.
Post 140: This quote by Pink is awkward, and if she flips scum, makes me suspicious of TN: "Knows might be too strong a word, but he seems to have worked out I'm town which is good. I never said he was scummy or I was scumreading him." The 2nd sentence doesn't flow naturally from the first. Why does she assume TN is town?
Post 150: Cyan shifts to KJ, saying Pinks recent posts sounded towny.
@Cyan, care to explain further why you thought that?
Post 163: Citric slots Wheat as town.
@Citric, why?
Post 177: Tn active-lurks.
Post 178: Scarbo calls him out on it. Town points for Scarbo.
Post 207: KJ's "JUST KIDDING" post feels awkward here, which Generic picks up in the next post. Town points for Generic.
Post 214: TN votes for Seppel, because "If we have a player that is a known liability to any team". Two things about this: 1) it's an easy push, since he's pretty much pushing against a bot. And 2) scumslip? Why say a liability to "any team" instead of town, or us, or whatever? I don't usually put stock in slips, but I don't see why his mindset would be worried about "any team" here instead of just town.
Post 220: TN tries to explain his reasoning, saying "caught scum > removal of negative utility town (VI, then lurker) > random wagon" because "Scum will NEVER kill anyone that is a detriment to town unless they have no choice". Not sure if I completely buy that, but willing to accept it for now.
Post 255: Citric comes in and votes my slot (GG). Feels like an easy, safe push given the play of my predecessor.
Post 260: Feeling better about DC3. I like his point that Rhand asked if DC3 was asking questions just to do so, but defends that questioning later.
Post 261: Citric asks DC3 whether or not GG is on his scum list. Scum points for Citric, considering that DC3 hasn't really pushed the GG slot all game. Either Citric wasn't reading, he was trying to get someone looked at as town (DC3) to jump on the wagon, or he's asking a scumbuddy for help. Leaning towards the 2nd.
Post 271: WIFOMyness from Rhand, re DC3's questions. "To elaborate: if the questions you fire everywhere are pointless, you're in your scum meta. When they have goals, it's your town meta." Rhand's earlier, "Are you asking questions just to ask questions" comment implies he can't tell the difference. If that's the case, I doubt town!Rhand would just take DC3 at his word.
Post 273: DC3 calls Rhand on that and says that isn't his scum meta.
Btw, Pink has pretty much dropped off the map right now.
Post 276: Rhand re-explains, "You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say DCiii. I thought what you did was scummy because town!dciii has reasons for the many questions he asks. Your questions turned out to have a point, so I think I see a town!dciii. I would expect you to have no good reasoning for the question that seemed pointless if you were scum. The amount of questions asked fit both your meta's."
Willing to buy that, for now.
Post 279: Wheat says that Generic is in his scum meta, because he isn't pressing anyone. I disagree; he pressed Pink early and has done so on a few others. He has felt way more floaty in his latest scum games, usually floating out a weak, "Hey does this guy look like scum" kind of question and seeing if anyone latches on.
Post 281: Generic is mad. Though he says that he believes he found scum page 1 (assuming he meant Pink), I would expect him to be pushing Pink more.
Post 288: Pink defends Generic. Does nothing else.
Post 296: Citric tries to look like he's doing something here, but look at the statement:
"If they're both scum it's really blatant buddying, and if Puddle is town that's a strong statement to make. If she's scum the last world is Generic is town."
Really? So either they're both scum, or one of them is scum, or both of them are town. That really narrows down the options.
That's the end of Page 12. I think Pink and Citric are the best scum candidates right now.
I mean, I did vote before it suddenly formed even quicker afterwards. Doesn't mean I want to unvote, I just wanted to point out that it was forming oh too quickly
And so what is your conclusion from it forming quickly? Obviously you think it's important.
I thought it looked a bit strange. Then noone said anything so I figured it wasn't very notable. People keep bringing up meta stuff so I half feel like it's more constructive for me to just post ideas and let people sift through them.
@LnR
I slotted Wheat as town becaue the way he was reading/bringing me up seemed genuine in that post. It's how I expected to be viewed by someone who doesn't have knowledge of town/scum alignments
Post 315: DC3 cases Fulcrum. Not really feeling it. It feels like it's mostly "Fulcrum isn't putting as much effort in as always", but I don't always put in a
ton of effort either. (In fact, my wife thinks I'm doing homework right now. Don't tell her.)
Post 333: More weird wording from Rhand. "Fulcrum's attack on dc3 is really bad. And she refuses to see how wrong she is." Refuses is a strange word to use. Can't quite explain it, but it sets off my Spidey sense.
Post 346: Good point on Rhand, where he said at the end of MM2 he had to pay more attention to vote count analysis. I like Dking for town so far.
Post 358: Pink comes in and says she is only interested in Seppel. Ignores everything else. Why isn't Pink lynched yet, again?
Post 360: Gives Rhand townpoints for jumping to GG/my slots, saying it "sticking to my wagon would be easy". What exactly was so difficult about jumping on GG's slot, since the majority either had a null or scum read on that slot?
Post 362/363/364: Fulcrum and Dkings call out Pink for her "towntells" on Rhand, and Hunger calls out Pink for wanting to lynch Seppel over other scum reads.
Why isn't Pink lynched yet? Seriously.
Post 367: Rhand says he is always cautious about moving his vote to big wagons. I don't particularly remember Rhand as a cautious player. Anyone else care to speak on this?
Post 371: Citric pops in, says Fulcum and Dkings is town vs town. Waffles on Rhand but wants to wait for GG to say anything.
Post 372: DC3 responds to Hunger, saying he still thinks Cyan is scum, but Rhand and Fulcrum are more likely.
DC3, when did you stop thinking Pink was scum?
Post 373: TN's post stating "I don't really have a scumread on Seppel. I have a leaning town Village Idiot read on Seppel." feels honest. Town points.
Post 379: Rhand is still hammering the "GG is still scum" angle. GG had, what, 7 posts? If that? And yet Rhand acts like that's his biggest scum read still. Don't get it. He says he can't elaborate more, but doesn't say why. And then he says Fulcrum is too stubborn to be town. Huh? If Fulcrum is reading DC3 as scum, then obviously Fulcrum is very likely not going to take DC3's words as proof he isn't. I just dont see how that's a scumtell at all.
@Rhand, can you elaborate now? Or at least explain why you can't elaborate? GIP or something?
Post 383: Rhand says that "Fulcrum refused to accept my arguments for why her dc3 read was wrong"... uhm that doesn't really make Fulcrum scummy at all. In fact, that feels towny to me, as when I get a read I often latch on (since my reads aren't usually that strong.) If Fulcrum just wavered from her read easily, I would think that more of a scummy move, jumping off because someone pressured her about it.
Post 391: TN says half the game hasn't really done anything. *raises eyebrows* Don't agree there. He specifically mentions: Chris, Rhand, Scarbo, Fulcrum and Dkingsland. Notice some names missing that a lot of discussion occurred around? Cyan, DC3 and Pink.
@TN, could you either give us a T/S list, or list your thoughts on those three.
Post 400: Dkings is forceful on Rhand. If Rhand is scum, DKings is town.
Post 434: This post by Citric makes me think Rhand is likely town, and Citric is scummy. He says he is alarmed at the speed of the Rhand wagon, which upon first read made me think he's a buddy... but then he asks if Rhand should be claiming, since he's at L-2. It feels like Citric is trying to cast doubt on a mislynch, while still getting a claim out of him. If he was wary of the wagon, why would he want a claim?
Post 438: Rhand semi-OMGUS's Wheat. Points out that Wheat said Rhand was too good at mafia at the end of Hayate, so he can he read him successfully now?
Post 449: DC3 talks about being neighbors with Wheat, and Wheat contradicting himself in the thread from what was said in chat.
Post 452: Cyan thinks DC3 is setting Wheat up and votes DC3.
Post 465: Wheat defends himself. I buy it.
Post 484: Pink shows up to thank Generic and Sir Chris for doing alot of work. Says she thinks Rhand is town, but he might be scumbuddies with Hawk. Continues to remain on Seppel and do f***all.
Post 492: Handwaves Hawks question about her posting frequency.
Post 493: Pink asks, "Hey Hawk, why do you think Seppel townread you before deciding to troll the game?" What is the point of this question? Why would Hawk know what Seppel was thinking?
And I replace in shortly after.
T/S List:
----Confirmed town-----
LnGrrrR - Duh
----High town reads-----------
Cyan - Has been updating his reads, making sense, barely any red flags
Generic - Doesn't feel like his scum meta. Also, he needs to be town in a game with me eventually, right?
Dkingsland - I liked his attack on Rhand.
Hawk - Has been following up on questions, attacking Pink when others haven't.
Scarbo - Poking lurkers, answering honestly.
-------Low town reads ------------
Sir Chris - Has poked everyone, feels honest. Haven't seen his scum game yet though.
Hunger - Haven't seen anything super towny, but I haven't seen any posts that brought up red flags
-----Neutral-----------
Killjoy - Haven't gotten a vibe either way from him
Wheat Grinder - Figuring out Rhand/DC3 should help sort this spot out
TN - Some strange posts, but no pettiness in responding back to questions asked of him
fulcrum - I have trouble reading fulcrum... I believe in a recent game I swore she was scum, and she was town. Need more time to figure this one out.
----------Low scum -------------
DC3 - His interactions with Rhand are... awkward. I don't know how his read of Pink completely disappeared, and his Fulcrum push wasn't very convincing for me.
Seppel - Not interacting, which is pretty anti-town.
Rhand - Weird phrasings and overly defensive when attacked.
Citric - Has pretty much actively lurked, and pressed no one. For someone who is "awesome", I expect a bit more.
--------High scum-------------
Pink - Feel free to any case, any interaction, any ANYTHING that sounds towny from this slot. I'll wait.
With Rhand claiming doc, I want people to look at Pink.
I mean, I did vote before it suddenly formed even quicker afterwards. Doesn't mean I want to unvote, I just wanted to point out that it was forming oh too quickly
And so what is your conclusion from it forming quickly? Obviously you think it's important.
I thought it looked a bit strange. Then noone said anything so I figured it wasn't very notable. People keep bringing up meta stuff so I half feel like it's more constructive for me to just post ideas and let people sift through them.
@LnR
I slotted Wheat as town becaue the way he was reading/bringing me up seemed genuine in that post. It's how I expected to be viewed by someone who doesn't have knowledge of town/scum alignments
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What do YOU think?
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@Rhand
There are only finite reasons to suspect someone is scum. If someone feels they've all been mentioned, how can you invalidate their scum read for not coming up with another reason?
But I really think GG was caught scum with that awful post of his.
I think Lngrrr has reasons to sheep the wagon as scum both if pink is town and if she is scum.
He seems to think she is going to get lynched anyhow because of her play.
@Scarbo: I am not invalidating his scumread. I just don't give him townpoints for it. It's too easy. And look at his posts: he has no other explanation for his read than thhat oher think she's scum.
He's a replacement and is bringing us nothing new. Town replacements should bring fresh views to a game.
My initial reaction is that I agree he is taking the easy way out as scum. ISO his posts and it looks like he is too certain of Pink being scum. And early on he has town reads on Generic and Hawk for their interactions with Pink. Like he votes her and is super sold on her without even being a third of the way through the Day. Does town place that vote there before being caught up? I guess if it were me, the answer is definitely no.
At the same time, it doesn't make sense to me in the world where LnG and Pink are both scum, that LnG would be that desperate to bus Pink before being all the way caught up not knowing if her wagon is dissolved or not. LnG could still be scum, but I think if he is, it's probably less likely that Pink is too. Obviously it is WIFOMy and I can see the argument for it being distancing.
1. He ended RVS before even half the game had checked in with a vote that he admitted was weak, but reasoned that he wanted to get discussion going. In this game he states that he likes to let RVS play out longer which is counter to what town Rhand did in Archer. He does state he likes RVS tells in both games.
2. He seemed a lot more invested in Archer. Posting analysis early and pushing people.
3. In Archer he was a lot more defensive of votes against him and asked for reasoning. This seems contrary to this game where he seems to be brushing off the votes and having town reads on his wagon.
It's certainly not a caught-scum level analysis, but he feels a lot different to me here. I still think Rhand is scum and want to lynch him toDay.
He keeps asking whether there's anyone who does not think she is scum. That gives me the idea that he's sure that she's going to get lynched sooner or later.
This is all of the evidence anyone should need to vote for Rhand. Like..what are you guys waiting for? Him to just give up and say 'I AM SCUM YOU GOT ME'? That isn't going to happen.
There are so many bad meta arguments against me and you all are too stubborn to see that they are bad.
This is mighty frustrating.
I concur with this. You need a stellar counter argument or I am voting you.
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Post 695 sucks and feels ridiculously self-conscious with the happy smiley face at the end.
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[21:23:48] <GhostFrog> bdsm is always more fun with a restraining order
[9:00:59 PM] kingdomacesbeta: Actually knowing what you're doing is overrated.
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These lynches happen regularly on here, and are correct more often than not. If you don't like it, I don't know what to tell you other than that you're in the wrong place.
What about the non-meta arguments? Of which there are several.
This goes for tn too.
What do you have against using meta? Your gonna have to elaborate your last comment.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Hunger is just a bunch of extra meta nonsense.
Cyan is full of crap if he finds Hunger's argument great. He accused me of the opposite.
Really, if you want your doc to die based off crappy meta nonsense, then lynch me.
(Yes, that was a claim)
Well probably not all of them because KJ and Wheat are also still scum, but lynch all of these and we probably win.
This seems like honest frustration though.
Still, I'll wait for a counterclaim(or lack of one).
I probably should still adress this.
1. There's a difference between ending rvs after 3 posts and what I did there. Pink's tell was not big enough to start from here.
2. I keep repeating myself, but GG disappeared and he is the clear scum of the Day. The prolific posters are town and i had to wait for Wheat and KillJoy to post nonsense for new good leads.
3. Am I not asking for reasoning then? I analysed my ****ing wagon for you. In Archer you saw me doing town distancing with Generic. That's something completely different.
Killah Priest
That said,
Unvote
For now.
@Rhand - Why did you feel the need to claim right now when you aren't even at L-2?
If Rhand flipped town I was going to look into pushing the lurkers (citric, tn, scarbo, fulcrum, Killjoy...). tn's last post is awful pending Rhand's claim holding up, which I expect it to.
I also still don't like Pink with her shady clear of Rhand earlier and a lot of her play, but she has had a couple good posts recently too...
Want to look over the Rhand wagon though. dking, I would like to see you analyze the wagon too if you can?
Yeah, because I have totally not discussed my thoughts on you over dozens of posts or anything <_<.
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Your I'm gonna vote you threat triggered my frustration overdose.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
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To be clear, Hunger's post re: Rhand made Hunger appear more town to me, regardless of Rhand's alignment.
If someone else is the real Doc, they need to claim, period. You don't leave things like this to chance. We have no idea how much information will be revealed when a person dies at night. Every townie should be willing to trade themself(regardless of their role), 1 for 1, for a guaranteed scum lynch.
Unrelatedly, there is nothing wrong with when Rhand claimed. He is correct that he was going to end up at L-2 again anyway. His claim still bugs me(Archer probably has alot to do with this), but if no one counterclaims we'll move on and let night periods work this out.
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2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
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2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
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Handwaving? There are no real points against me. It's all unbased meta.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
And i think I did respond to all of them? Sometimes there simply isn't more to say than 'you're wrong' :/
Especially Cyan is just incredible. He's a good player so he should realise that trying to meta me while never having seen my scumgame just doesn't work. It's the same thing I did with DcIII, and I realised that that wasn't right. Cyan just stays stubborn.
I find it strange that TN backed rhand when rhand had a very strong argument against him. Seems like he had inside info to get town cred if rhand was town or defending a buddy if scum. Let's hear why you didn't like the rhand wagon or meta reads TN.
Outdated Mafia Stats
These three posts are in a row for Citric over the course of a day. He votes Rhand, says he is 'alarmed at the speed of the wagon', and then is confused why Rhand has not claimed.
What?
##unvote: Generic
##vote: Citric
'Hey guys I don't like how fast this lynch has gone but I'll keep my vote on it and then wonder why this guy isn't claiming yet.'
That's... not how that generally works.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
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2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Hmm... what gives you the impression of drunkenness? This could be important.
Rhand claimed Doc. Would he risk faking it right now? Maybe, if he wanted to out the doc. Interestingly, Cyan is quick to call Rhand's reaction honest frustration. I'm not sure one can come to that conclusion yet.
Top three scumspects (disregarding Rhand pending a cc) are Cyan, Pink, DK, with a shoutout to hawk depending on his answer to my question
I made a couple in my catch-up post.
I hate this doc-claiming metagame even more than Faceless Void and 5-Man Deathball in Dota 2.
Unvote, Vote: CitricBase in the meantime.
Outdated Mafia Stats
Post 3: Pink jumps in with the first post, "voting" the mod Karn. (I put votes in quotes because she tried using [vote]Sir Karn[/vote], which obviously doesn't work here.
Post 13: Refuses to answer Generic's question about who she is. Given the [vote] thing, either she plays on MS or wants it to look like she plays on MS.
Post 20: Said she wouldn't answer Generic's question earlier, then says "perhaps I am happy to piss you off", and votes Generic. Feels OMGUSy. Let's see what Pink does with that vote later.
Post 49: Gets run up, then jumps off Generic, again explaining that she is an alt and doesn't want to give clues. Then she votes GG as prob scum, saying Cyan is probscum too. What was the point in the Generic vote again?
Post 55: In response to Generic's question, Pink says it was RVS, and that nothing that early should be viewed seriously. I call BS on that.
(Here, Sir Chris and Fulcrum say that Cyan needs to explain Pink's scumminess, as it isn't apparent. I don't see how it isn't.)
Post 88: Cyan explains why Pink is scummy. /Barn this whole post.
Post 94: DC3 says he is willing to vote Cyan or Pink, but curiously enough chooses Cyan, even though there was current pressure on Pink. Red flags going off for me on DC3 here.
@DC3, why Cyan there instead of Pink?
Post 112: Weird post by DC3 here... he rails on Cyan for saying Pink was "obvscum", and points out why it was only debatably scum. Then he goes onto to point out why he thought Pink was scum... using a reason Cyan noted.
Post 120: Wheat states that Pink doesn't care about determining alignments. (I agree.)
Ok this is just to the end of Page 5. Pink is just overwhelmingly
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And so what is your conclusion from it forming quickly? Obviously you think it's important.
Post 130: Calls out Scarbo for ignoring the wagons and nakedvoting Citric...
Post 132: Then quotes Seppel's "Finally I'm town for once", says no townie says this, then votes Seppel. After just saying Cyan was scum. It doesn't feel like Pink is jumping around on people to get pressure because she's trying to get a grip on the game, and poking people for reactions. It feels like she is just voting people and hoping the wagon forms after her.
Post 140: This quote by Pink is awkward, and if she flips scum, makes me suspicious of TN: "Knows might be too strong a word, but he seems to have worked out I'm town which is good. I never said he was scummy or I was scumreading him." The 2nd sentence doesn't flow naturally from the first. Why does she assume TN is town?
Post 150: Cyan shifts to KJ, saying Pinks recent posts sounded towny.
@Cyan, care to explain further why you thought that?
Post 163: Citric slots Wheat as town.
@Citric, why?
Post 177: Tn active-lurks.
Post 178: Scarbo calls him out on it. Town points for Scarbo.
Post 207: KJ's "JUST KIDDING" post feels awkward here, which Generic picks up in the next post. Town points for Generic.
Post 214: TN votes for Seppel, because "If we have a player that is a known liability to any team". Two things about this: 1) it's an easy push, since he's pretty much pushing against a bot. And 2) scumslip? Why say a liability to "any team" instead of town, or us, or whatever? I don't usually put stock in slips, but I don't see why his mindset would be worried about "any team" here instead of just town.
Post 220: TN tries to explain his reasoning, saying "caught scum > removal of negative utility town (VI, then lurker) > random wagon" because "Scum will NEVER kill anyone that is a detriment to town unless they have no choice". Not sure if I completely buy that, but willing to accept it for now.
Post 255: Citric comes in and votes my slot (GG). Feels like an easy, safe push given the play of my predecessor.
Post 260: Feeling better about DC3. I like his point that Rhand asked if DC3 was asking questions just to do so, but defends that questioning later.
Post 261: Citric asks DC3 whether or not GG is on his scum list. Scum points for Citric, considering that DC3 hasn't really pushed the GG slot all game. Either Citric wasn't reading, he was trying to get someone looked at as town (DC3) to jump on the wagon, or he's asking a scumbuddy for help. Leaning towards the 2nd.
Post 271: WIFOMyness from Rhand, re DC3's questions. "To elaborate: if the questions you fire everywhere are pointless, you're in your scum meta. When they have goals, it's your town meta." Rhand's earlier, "Are you asking questions just to ask questions" comment implies he can't tell the difference. If that's the case, I doubt town!Rhand would just take DC3 at his word.
Post 273: DC3 calls Rhand on that and says that isn't his scum meta.
Btw, Pink has pretty much dropped off the map right now.
Post 276: Rhand re-explains, "You don't seem to understand what I am trying to say DCiii. I thought what you did was scummy because town!dciii has reasons for the many questions he asks. Your questions turned out to have a point, so I think I see a town!dciii. I would expect you to have no good reasoning for the question that seemed pointless if you were scum. The amount of questions asked fit both your meta's."
Willing to buy that, for now.
Post 279: Wheat says that Generic is in his scum meta, because he isn't pressing anyone. I disagree; he pressed Pink early and has done so on a few others. He has felt way more floaty in his latest scum games, usually floating out a weak, "Hey does this guy look like scum" kind of question and seeing if anyone latches on.
Post 281: Generic is mad. Though he says that he believes he found scum page 1 (assuming he meant Pink), I would expect him to be pushing Pink more.
Post 288: Pink defends Generic. Does nothing else.
Post 296: Citric tries to look like he's doing something here, but look at the statement:
"If they're both scum it's really blatant buddying, and if Puddle is town that's a strong statement to make. If she's scum the last world is Generic is town."
Really? So either they're both scum, or one of them is scum, or both of them are town. That really narrows down the options.
That's the end of Page 12. I think Pink and Citric are the best scum candidates right now.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I thought it looked a bit strange. Then noone said anything so I figured it wasn't very notable. People keep bringing up meta stuff so I half feel like it's more constructive for me to just post ideas and let people sift through them.
@LnR
I slotted Wheat as town becaue the way he was reading/bringing me up seemed genuine in that post. It's how I expected to be viewed by someone who doesn't have knowledge of town/scum alignments
ton of effort either. (In fact, my wife thinks I'm doing homework right now. Don't tell her.)
Post 333: More weird wording from Rhand. "Fulcrum's attack on dc3 is really bad. And she refuses to see how wrong she is." Refuses is a strange word to use. Can't quite explain it, but it sets off my Spidey sense.
Post 346: Good point on Rhand, where he said at the end of MM2 he had to pay more attention to vote count analysis. I like Dking for town so far.
Post 358: Pink comes in and says she is only interested in Seppel. Ignores everything else. Why isn't Pink lynched yet, again?
Post 360: Gives Rhand townpoints for jumping to GG/my slots, saying it "sticking to my wagon would be easy". What exactly was so difficult about jumping on GG's slot, since the majority either had a null or scum read on that slot?
Post 362/363/364: Fulcrum and Dkings call out Pink for her "towntells" on Rhand, and Hunger calls out Pink for wanting to lynch Seppel over other scum reads.
Why isn't Pink lynched yet? Seriously.
Post 367: Rhand says he is always cautious about moving his vote to big wagons. I don't particularly remember Rhand as a cautious player. Anyone else care to speak on this?
Post 371: Citric pops in, says Fulcum and Dkings is town vs town. Waffles on Rhand but wants to wait for GG to say anything.
Post 372: DC3 responds to Hunger, saying he still thinks Cyan is scum, but Rhand and Fulcrum are more likely.
DC3, when did you stop thinking Pink was scum?
Post 373: TN's post stating "I don't really have a scumread on Seppel. I have a leaning town Village Idiot read on Seppel." feels honest. Town points.
Post 379: Rhand is still hammering the "GG is still scum" angle. GG had, what, 7 posts? If that? And yet Rhand acts like that's his biggest scum read still. Don't get it. He says he can't elaborate more, but doesn't say why. And then he says Fulcrum is too stubborn to be town. Huh? If Fulcrum is reading DC3 as scum, then obviously Fulcrum is very likely not going to take DC3's words as proof he isn't. I just dont see how that's a scumtell at all.
@Rhand, can you elaborate now? Or at least explain why you can't elaborate? GIP or something?
Post 383: Rhand says that "Fulcrum refused to accept my arguments for why her dc3 read was wrong"... uhm that doesn't really make Fulcrum scummy at all. In fact, that feels towny to me, as when I get a read I often latch on (since my reads aren't usually that strong.) If Fulcrum just wavered from her read easily, I would think that more of a scummy move, jumping off because someone pressured her about it.
Post 391: TN says half the game hasn't really done anything. *raises eyebrows* Don't agree there. He specifically mentions: Chris, Rhand, Scarbo, Fulcrum and Dkingsland. Notice some names missing that a lot of discussion occurred around? Cyan, DC3 and Pink.
@TN, could you either give us a T/S list, or list your thoughts on those three.
Post 400: Dkings is forceful on Rhand. If Rhand is scum, DKings is town.
Post 434: This post by Citric makes me think Rhand is likely town, and Citric is scummy. He says he is alarmed at the speed of the Rhand wagon, which upon first read made me think he's a buddy... but then he asks if Rhand should be claiming, since he's at L-2. It feels like Citric is trying to cast doubt on a mislynch, while still getting a claim out of him. If he was wary of the wagon, why would he want a claim?
Post 438: Rhand semi-OMGUS's Wheat. Points out that Wheat said Rhand was too good at mafia at the end of Hayate, so he can he read him successfully now?
Post 449: DC3 talks about being neighbors with Wheat, and Wheat contradicting himself in the thread from what was said in chat.
Post 452: Cyan thinks DC3 is setting Wheat up and votes DC3.
Post 465: Wheat defends himself. I buy it.
Post 484: Pink shows up to thank Generic and Sir Chris for doing alot of work. Says she thinks Rhand is town, but he might be scumbuddies with Hawk. Continues to remain on Seppel and do f***all.
Post 492: Handwaves Hawks question about her posting frequency.
Post 493: Pink asks, "Hey Hawk, why do you think Seppel townread you before deciding to troll the game?" What is the point of this question? Why would Hawk know what Seppel was thinking?
And I replace in shortly after.
T/S List:
----Confirmed town-----
LnGrrrR - Duh
----High town reads-----------
Cyan - Has been updating his reads, making sense, barely any red flags
Generic - Doesn't feel like his scum meta. Also, he needs to be town in a game with me eventually, right?
Dkingsland - I liked his attack on Rhand.
Hawk - Has been following up on questions, attacking Pink when others haven't.
Scarbo - Poking lurkers, answering honestly.
-------Low town reads ------------
Sir Chris - Has poked everyone, feels honest. Haven't seen his scum game yet though.
Hunger - Haven't seen anything super towny, but I haven't seen any posts that brought up red flags
-----Neutral-----------
Killjoy - Haven't gotten a vibe either way from him
Wheat Grinder - Figuring out Rhand/DC3 should help sort this spot out
TN - Some strange posts, but no pettiness in responding back to questions asked of him
fulcrum - I have trouble reading fulcrum... I believe in a recent game I swore she was scum, and she was town. Need more time to figure this one out.
----------Low scum -------------
DC3 - His interactions with Rhand are... awkward. I don't know how his read of Pink completely disappeared, and his Fulcrum push wasn't very convincing for me.
Seppel - Not interacting, which is pretty anti-town.
Rhand - Weird phrasings and overly defensive when attacked.
Citric - Has pretty much actively lurked, and pressed no one. For someone who is "awesome", I expect a bit more.
--------High scum-------------
Pink - Feel free to any case, any interaction, any ANYTHING that sounds towny from this slot. I'll wait.
With Rhand claiming doc, I want people to look at Pink.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
No.
What do YOU think?