I dont think I'm getting any answers out of hawk. Ugh. I guess I can always come back later.
Vote Iterated
Iterated's absolutely right about ika being obv town, but I dont understand why he didn't let the wagon go a little bit and use it as a honey trap for bad scum. Then, everyone on the wagon, with the possible exception of scarbo, feels pretty town. I think Iterated wanted to look good for defending ika, so he overestimated the threat of ika being instalynched and warned his scummates to avoid the low hanging fruit.
You are wrong.
I'm not the one to hide my town reads. When someone I'm townreading gets wagonned for terrible reasons, I will loudly throw myself on the line to defend that person. I also know that ika will take every opportunity to encourage a wagon on him once one gets going, up and to including self hammering as town.
I wanted to nip early game pressure on ika in the bud and give scum very little room to attack.
Explain why Proph tripped over himself to prevent a quicklynch, when ika had two votes. Explain why Proph said there was likely scum on ika and then didn't analyze the wagon. Explain why he has a readless vote on Bolly. And explain why he consistently misinterpreted my reason for town reading Bolly.
Go ahead. Surprise me.
Iterated is Proph?
More to the point is that your statement "Iterated is absolutely right that ika is obv town" doesn't jive with the belief that Iterated is scum. Since scum already know who is town, you can't assign an ontological 'correctness' factor to what they say. Furthermore it makes no sense to say it's anti-town for someone to jump off a wagon (two votes is not even a wagon) on someone who is "obv town." If your beef with Iterated is that he didn't stay on the wagon to 'lure' bad scum votes, why didn't you keep your mouth shut and just put your vote on ika to do the same thing?
It's also interesting that you call me possibly the only exception to the towny people voting ika yet proceed to follow me onto Iterated in the same post.
I'm not in the business of explaining Iterated/Proph's behavior. Did you forget I just had a vote on him?
Scarbo:1. I don't get your first point. Ika is obv town. This is, to be repetitive, obvious. So, iterated's statement that ika is obv town is correct. Where did you get th he idea that scum cant make accurate assessments of the scumminess and towniness of players?
2.Proph was never on the wagon. He started screaming to get off when Ika got two votes. He said he did that because he was worried about ika being quicklynch, which is actually very similar to the last game I played with him (he was town). The difference is that game had 7 players and a player known for quickhammering, while this game has 13 and this site has a history of stopping at l-2. Ika was in no danger of being quicklynched, and Proph implied he was for town cred.
3.I did keep my mouth shut and let the wagon progress. I also tried to subtly ask Proph why he wasn't earlier.
4.There's scum between you and Proph, and I think it's Proph.
5.Next time, please refrain from undermining my case before the target even responds to it.
Ika's low hanging fruit. I expected some scum to vote for him. But of the three people who voted for him, Bolly and rogueofoz feel town and scarbo doesn't seem like the type to go for easy lynches as scum. So, if there's no scum on him, then the scum team is either to savy to go for ika or someone warned them off. I'm pretty sure Proph and I are the only ones with the experience with ika to do that, and it wasn't me.
Fulcrum I'll look over and answer all your crap at some point this weekend. I feel like I've answered enough that you really should be able to see my actions for what they are and are just nitpicking to try and annoy me, which is annoying.
This is a scum statement. Note the bolded. He's saying fulcrum should be able to understand his play. That does not make sense as a statement addressing scum. If fulcrum is scum, then she isn't trying to understand anything; she already knows all the alignments. So this statement doesn't work with the belief that fulcrum is scum. Yet hawk is also saying fulcrum is scum, and is voting her.
First off kamikaze, I don't know for certain if fulcrum is scum. Do I think she is, probably. Does that mean I should treat her as guaranteed scum and not interact or discuss anything with her, no. Scum can't be as dense as you are so I guess that's in your favor. Your two points against me are terrible. The first one said I was being opportunistic when I was the only one voting fulcrum and so you jumped on my wagon. Hypocrite much? Try to pull your head out of your butt and do something useful other then tunneling on me.
Right now I'm thinking a wingz, AG and fulcrum scum team. Fulcrum is actually talking so that will give us more opportunity to catch her slipping up. Wingz hopped on my wagon at the scum tell spot and has the tone and posting methodology of scum, not to mention infrequent posts and generally being useless. AGS quote post was fluffy and has been non existant.
First off kamikaze, I don't know for certain if fulcrum is scum. Do I think she is, probably. Does that mean I should treat her as guaranteed scum and not interact or discuss anything with her, no. Scum can't be as dense as you are so I guess that's in your favor. Your two points against me are terrible. The first one said I was being opportunistic when I was the only one voting fulcrum and so you jumped on my wagon. Hypocrite much? Try to pull your head out of your butt and do something useful other then tunneling on me.
@Bolly
That made me laugh
Hopped on your wagon? I started your wagon. The only other vote on you was an RVS vote.
Then by your own definiton, or actions are the same. If I was opportunistic, so we're you. You can't spin it in a way that applies one way to me and another to you.
How was my vote not scum hunting. I immediately put pressure on bolly and asked him a follow-up question. His point isn't valid and therefore used it as an opportunity to try and get on my wagon. But like I said, his performance in experiment mafia was along these lines so I still think he is derp town instead of bad scum.
And I swear to god fulcrum, if you end up nathing one more of my posts, I will PayPal copious amounts of money to the mod for a day vig shot.
What is the mindset behind scum ika? What is the reason for making the posts he has as scum?
Firstly, you should understand that I don't like meta. I much prefer to form an opinion of someone based upon their behaviour in the current game and so I'm deliberately trying to ignore what's been said about Ika's playstyle in other games. I think that Ika's play has been all over the place and not conducive to helping the Town, and to me, that's a scumtell.
I'm not talking about meta. My question is "can you come up with logical reasons for why a scum would behave as ika has, and what are they?" Simply being anti-town or unusual isn't a good scum tell. Can you give me a reasonable narrative for ika that would make sense for scum.
@Hawk. I don't know what to think about you right now. Your actions fit into both scum and town mindsets and reading you this game feels very similar to reading Iso on day 1.
unvote
[quote from="fulcrum »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/568591-88-unreal-tournament-mafia-day-1-facing-worlds?comment=233"Ika's low hanging fruit. I expected some scum to vote for him. But of the three people who voted for him, Bolly and rogueofoz feel town and scarbo doesn't seem like the type to go for easy lynches as scum. So, if there's no scum on him, then the scum team is either to savy to go for ika or someone warned them off. I'm pretty sure Proph and I are the only ones with the experience with ika to do that, and it wasn't me.[/quote]
Why are you so certain that Bolly and rogueofoz are town? Do you have further reasoning beyond the weak flak cannon thing?
1. Early vote on bolly that felt really opportunistic and maybe trying to create a bandwagon against bolly and accuse him of "fear mongering".
2. when it failed then goes and immidiately points to wingz and fulcrum being scum.
3. See KamikazeArchon's post #65
4. Trying to start another band wagon against fulcrum
It seems to me that first 7hawk77 tried to get bandwagons going against players to see if it result in a misslynch.
i come back to see more posts of noting that intrest me too much.
i d find its funny how font keeps calling em obvitown when earlier shes doublecasted em as possible scum.
the people on hawk are being stupid and patheitc.
the entire convo is dumb.
im growing board of this day. someone make something entertaining instead of stupid bickering.
the fact font is so hypocritcal about proph defneindg me is patheic and stpiud. he most likely tried to derail it before it reached a point of no reutrn.
1. Early vote on bolly that felt really opportunistic and maybe trying to create a bandwagon against bolly and accuse him of "fear mongering".
2. when it failed then goes and immidiately points to wingz and fulcrum being scum.
3. See KamikazeArchon's post #65
4. Trying to start another band wagon against fulcrum
It seems to me that first 7hawk77 tried to get bandwagons going against players to see if it result in a misslynch.
The thing about what you just said is that you're operating under the assumption that the people hawk is attacking are town.
A bus is possible, but I think that post from rogueofoz will point to Bolly, fulcrum, and W1ngz being town.
Im not even voting for anyone right now, cause I need mor info, I'm just analyzing the game and seeing wich players had an unusual (for me) activity from the start and It came to my attetion the thing I point out about hawk, that I think needs to ve reviewd at least think of possible scum-ish activity.
Rogueofoz: What's do you think of me, W1ngz, Bolly and Kamekaze?
Sorry for the double quote on the last post.
I have you onto scumish activity just like hawk's, but I lean towards scum, while on hawk I lean towards town.
My best bet on being scum I will say that it's W1ngz.
Bolly I think it's probably town, I just don't see scumy intentions on posts.
Kamekaze well ill have to point to you to post #236 "Pretty sure Bolly and hawk aren't scum together." How can u be pretty sure of two players alignments who most people are to the date, not even certain what to make of them, plus I have those 2 players on my probably town list, as most of us are.
on W1ngz case I refer to hawk's post #239, those are pretty much my reasons too, it's scummy activity all the way, he haven't post since pgae 2 or 3, and since then a lot of important things have happen without him commenting, plus when he did it wasn't that helpfull and felt like filler.
Can someone confirm that I'm reading rogueofoz correctly? In 251 he says hawk is trying to get W1ngz and Bolly mislynched. Then in 267 he says hawk is town and W1ngz is his 'best bet' for scum? Furthermore he's only 'pretty sure' Bolly is town?
This is insane. These are completely contradictory stances.
So I think a lot of people missed this. The first line was me voting fulcrum and unvoting bolly, Everything after that was talking about Bolly and why I don't think that he is scum after looking in to experiment 2
Yes it was. I feel sufficiently satisfied now. unvote vote fulcrum
I saw what you did as a way to discuss mafia theory instead of talking about the game at hand which could segue you in to saying your feelings on no lynching which since you already polled the town, you could say something that is of popular opinion.
Anyways after reading through your other game, it looked like you are more thorough and less responsive. I expected an answer to be a well thought out concise answer to my history question if you were scum.
Your answer didn't include the why which I think shows that you were answering it quickly and not very thoroughly which differs from your scum game. Why would you have to watch what you say if you are town. Therefore I no longer suspect you and can move on.
Hey fulcrum, why are you defending wings when confirming my reasoning for discrediting him, and then attacking me for discrediting. You don't make sense.
Let me spell it out easier.
Wings posts fluffy garbo.
I call him out on it.
You go and find the answer to my question validating that his question is indeed fluffy garbo.
You attack me for calling him out on it even though you just confirmed the validity. You might want to get your head checked.
The way I see it, you're only attacking the people who are attacking you because they're attacking you.
Surely you understand why "I expected you to put a lot of thought into your answer as scum" is both an insufficient answer to W1ngz question and stupid.
Then explain Kamikaze? Wouldn't I think he is scum too? Ever since I read experiment 2 I've stated that he is just derp town.
You attacked Bolly in a way that I both disagreed with and found overeager. Then, when you were attacked for it, you immediately backed off Bolly and started OMGUSing.
The way called Bolly town looks like a correction to your error in reading the situation, mainly because the reasoning you used to back off is contrived and moronic. For one, you claimed that Bolly answering a history question without thinking heavily about made him likely town, even though a scum player would have no reason to be leery about answering a question that has nothing to do with the game. Why didn't you ask a game related question to judge how much thought he would put into answering? Further, you used the same idea of a lack of thought put into posts to clear me in Archer, and I flipped scum. Why wouldn't you reassess the strategy after that. Finally, Bolly had already shown a lack of self-consciousness before you asked that question. The idea of you having to fish for more self-consciousness after that and then only using it to justify your argument is bizarre.
In addition, the push against W1ngz for asking a question that, contrary to your claim, you had not fully answered and have still not fully answered, was bad.
I attacked bolly for fear mongering about a dead line on day 1 which I thought was a ruse to look towny. I attacked him and got sufficient meta answers on how his scum game would go. I read plenty up on that game to be satisfied that the way that he is playing right now is not the same as the scum game that he just won. I didn't ask a game related question because if it was too specific, he would have possibly put lots of thought in it because I was already pressuring him with a vote and ended up with a similar tone. Since it was a non game related question, town Bolly would have no reason to care about how he approached the answer where as scum bolly would probably still be hesitant how he answered any question. You can disagree with my rationale all you want but that will not change my alignment. Finding one exception to the rule does not disprove the rule.
Oh, and you dismissed my townhunting as buddying, which is just stupid.
Buddying is done to either 1.make someone look like your scummate or 2.convince them that you are town and have them vote with you. Openly calling anyone but the most newbish players town makes them looked unaligned with you and makes them paranoid about you, especially when it's done that early on. You might notice those results as the exact opposite to what scum hope to achieve from buddying.
Sure, lets go for number 2. You town cleared a few people and then voted for someone who I 100% know is town, cause it's me. Looks like you tried to gain their trust to run the town in to the ground. Nice job buddying and defining it exactly the way you used it.
[/Spoiler]
After rereading everything, I'm feeling better about scarbo and iterated so hopefully we can get a solid town going. Neon's scum hunting looks genuine but presented in a strange fluffy/dainty manner. I don't really get it.
@Neon
Why did you want to know who everyone wanted to day vig? Also specifically asking for a day vig is not the same as asking who you think the scummiest person is, Why ask for the day vig over top scum read?
Can someone confirm that I'm reading rogueofoz correctly? In 251 he says hawk is trying to get W1ngz and Bolly mislynched. Then in 267 he says hawk is town and W1ngz is his 'best bet' for scum? Furthermore he's only 'pretty sure' Bolly is town?
This is insane. These are completely contradictory stances.
/Confirm, you are not crazy.
I'm down to lynch him, however there is so many scummy people in this game right now that we probably should continue the day to try and learn more.
Can someone confirm that I'm reading rogueofoz correctly? In 251 he says hawk is trying to get W1ngz and Bolly mislynched. Then in 267 he says hawk is town and W1ngz is his 'best bet' for scum? Furthermore he's only 'pretty sure' Bolly is town?
This is insane. These are completely contradictory stances.
/Confirm, you are not crazy.
I'm down to lynch him, however there is so many scummy people in this game right now that we probably should continue the day to try and learn more.
Maybe cause at first at should have added "it seems like" 'cause those were just suggestions if you will, not absoulutly truths, plus i did say I'm watching close eye on him, but seeing the other posts I'm leaning toward town (note that I didn't say he is town for sure) Furthermore I'm not a really good mafia player (town or scum) so my reads are not THAT good, but from what I can see I don't seem to feel like Bolly is scum, also I think Ika is town too along with several others, including you scarbo, my only real 2 candidates for scum are Fulcrum and W1ngz as of right now, I guess u can say everyone else I'm not certain they are town, but etheir leaning toward town or I just don't feel them as scum.
Then why did you say you thought hawk was trying to get fulcrum and W1ngz mislynched?
I just noted it was akward his voting patterns early on and IF and just IF we find out that either fulcrum or w1ngz turn out to be town THEN that would be something of notice.
Furthermore I was expresing my toughts as I was reading trought the posts,but when I got a lot further I did lean toward town, but I already had sent the first post, but I just tought that his early behavor was something worth to look into it, I was not saying he was scum or town.
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You are wrong.
I'm not the one to hide my town reads. When someone I'm townreading gets wagonned for terrible reasons, I will loudly throw myself on the line to defend that person. I also know that ika will take every opportunity to encourage a wagon on him once one gets going, up and to including self hammering as town.
I wanted to nip early game pressure on ika in the bud and give scum very little room to attack.
Iterated is Proph?
More to the point is that your statement "Iterated is absolutely right that ika is obv town" doesn't jive with the belief that Iterated is scum. Since scum already know who is town, you can't assign an ontological 'correctness' factor to what they say. Furthermore it makes no sense to say it's anti-town for someone to jump off a wagon (two votes is not even a wagon) on someone who is "obv town." If your beef with Iterated is that he didn't stay on the wagon to 'lure' bad scum votes, why didn't you keep your mouth shut and just put your vote on ika to do the same thing?
It's also interesting that you call me possibly the only exception to the towny people voting ika yet proceed to follow me onto Iterated in the same post.
I'm not in the business of explaining Iterated/Proph's behavior. Did you forget I just had a vote on him?
Where's the scum motivation in Bolly's posts? I'm not seeing it.
Bolly's tone and the way he presents himself is different then the game where he won as mafia in xyre's experiment to 2 mafia.
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2.Proph was never on the wagon. He started screaming to get off when Ika got two votes. He said he did that because he was worried about ika being quicklynch, which is actually very similar to the last game I played with him (he was town). The difference is that game had 7 players and a player known for quickhammering, while this game has 13 and this site has a history of stopping at l-2. Ika was in no danger of being quicklynched, and Proph implied he was for town cred.
3.I did keep my mouth shut and let the wagon progress. I also tried to subtly ask Proph why he wasn't earlier.
4.There's scum between you and Proph, and I think it's Proph.
5.Next time, please refrain from undermining my case before the target even responds to it.
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Ika's low hanging fruit. I expected some scum to vote for him. But of the three people who voted for him, Bolly and rogueofoz feel town and scarbo doesn't seem like the type to go for easy lynches as scum. So, if there's no scum on him, then the scum team is either to savy to go for ika or someone warned them off. I'm pretty sure Proph and I are the only ones with the experience with ika to do that, and it wasn't me.
@Bolly
That made me laugh
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Right now I'm thinking a wingz, AG and fulcrum scum team. Fulcrum is actually talking so that will give us more opportunity to catch her slipping up. Wingz hopped on my wagon at the scum tell spot and has the tone and posting methodology of scum, not to mention infrequent posts and generally being useless. AGS quote post was fluffy and has been non existant.
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Opportunistic votes are made with poor reasoning for a specfic purpose other than scumhunting. You cannot declare all votes to be opportunistic.
And I swear to god fulcrum, if you end up nathing one more of my posts, I will PayPal copious amounts of money to the mod for a day vig shot.
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What do you think about it now? You said that ika's actions don't make sense for town, do they make sense for scum?
I'm not talking about meta. My question is "can you come up with logical reasons for why a scum would behave as ika has, and what are they?" Simply being anti-town or unusual isn't a good scum tell. Can you give me a reasonable narrative for ika that would make sense for scum.
@Hawk. I don't know what to think about you right now. Your actions fit into both scum and town mindsets and reading you this game feels very similar to reading Iso on day 1.
unvote
[quote from="fulcrum »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/568591-88-unreal-tournament-mafia-day-1-facing-worlds?comment=233"Ika's low hanging fruit. I expected some scum to vote for him. But of the three people who voted for him, Bolly and rogueofoz feel town and scarbo doesn't seem like the type to go for easy lynches as scum. So, if there's no scum on him, then the scum team is either to savy to go for ika or someone warned them off. I'm pretty sure Proph and I are the only ones with the experience with ika to do that, and it wasn't me.[/quote]
Why are you so certain that Bolly and rogueofoz are town? Do you have further reasoning beyond the weak flak cannon thing?
1. Early vote on bolly that felt really opportunistic and maybe trying to create a bandwagon against bolly and accuse him of "fear mongering".
2. when it failed then goes and immidiately points to wingz and fulcrum being scum.
3. See KamikazeArchon's post #65
4. Trying to start another band wagon against fulcrum
It seems to me that first 7hawk77 tried to get bandwagons going against players to see if it result in a misslynch.
i d find its funny how font keeps calling em obvitown when earlier shes doublecasted em as possible scum.
the people on hawk are being stupid and patheitc.
the entire convo is dumb.
im growing board of this day. someone make something entertaining instead of stupid bickering.
the fact font is so hypocritcal about proph defneindg me is patheic and stpiud. he most likely tried to derail it before it reached a point of no reutrn.
The thing about what you just said is that you're operating under the assumption that the people hawk is attacking are town.
How do you know they are town?
Unvote
Vote: rogueofoz
A bus is possible, but I think that post from rogueofoz will point to Bolly, fulcrum, and W1ngz being town.
Rogueofoz: What's do you think of me, W1ngz, Bolly and Kamekaze?
iterated, is fulcrum scum? why or why not?
umm...who else is there of interest. no one really.
scar would shoot me - sadness.
also, let's stick to mtgs names especially since someone stole the name lyrium and I want them superdead for it.
If I were to use a day vig power right now, who should I murderize? Like who is the scummiest?
{Goes to put on thinking cap}
how so? you say you know me so well. how about you explain to me as if i dont know myself. how its not a mislynch make. explain to me that.
after you do i will give you every reason on why it would and is going to be
and if the answer is me thorwing a huge ******* fit/tantrum you need a better answer cus thats not the right one
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hawk's wagon, or ika's?
I don't analyze wagons until they reach, at a minimum, five votes.
He was not scumhunting in the earlier part of the game.
When called out on it, he placed a vote on low-hanging fruit ika.
At the way the game is progressing, I may have to re-evaluate him. His #235 sounded quite sincere.
I do not know at the moment. fulcrum's a tough read for me in general.
I want W1ngz's input on her.
Everyone else is not town enough. Town it up people.
I need to re-read the game and re-evaluate my read on Bolly.
Bolly, can you answer my question, please?
Im not even voting for anyone right now, cause I need mor info, I'm just analyzing the game and seeing wich players had an unusual (for me) activity from the start and It came to my attetion the thing I point out about hawk, that I think needs to ve reviewd at least think of possible scum-ish activity.
Sorry for the double quote on the last post.
I have you onto scumish activity just like hawk's, but I lean towards scum, while on hawk I lean towards town.
My best bet on being scum I will say that it's W1ngz.
Bolly I think it's probably town, I just don't see scumy intentions on posts.
Kamekaze well ill have to point to you to post #236 "Pretty sure Bolly and hawk aren't scum together." How can u be pretty sure of two players alignments who most people are to the date, not even certain what to make of them, plus I have those 2 players on my probably town list, as most of us are.
This is insane. These are completely contradictory stances.
So I think a lot of people missed this. The first line was me voting fulcrum and unvoting bolly, Everything after that was talking about Bolly and why I don't think that he is scum after looking in to experiment 2
Then explain Kamikaze? Wouldn't I think he is scum too? Ever since I read experiment 2 I've stated that he is just derp town.
I attacked bolly for fear mongering about a dead line on day 1 which I thought was a ruse to look towny. I attacked him and got sufficient meta answers on how his scum game would go. I read plenty up on that game to be satisfied that the way that he is playing right now is not the same as the scum game that he just won. I didn't ask a game related question because if it was too specific, he would have possibly put lots of thought in it because I was already pressuring him with a vote and ended up with a similar tone. Since it was a non game related question, town Bolly would have no reason to care about how he approached the answer where as scum bolly would probably still be hesitant how he answered any question. You can disagree with my rationale all you want but that will not change my alignment. Finding one exception to the rule does not disprove the rule.
Sure, lets go for number 2. You town cleared a few people and then voted for someone who I 100% know is town, cause it's me. Looks like you tried to gain their trust to run the town in to the ground. Nice job buddying and defining it exactly the way you used it.
[/Spoiler]
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@Neon
Why did you want to know who everyone wanted to day vig? Also specifically asking for a day vig is not the same as asking who you think the scummiest person is, Why ask for the day vig over top scum read?
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/Confirm, you are not crazy.
I'm down to lynch him, however there is so many scummy people in this game right now that we probably should continue the day to try and learn more.
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Maybe cause at first at should have added "it seems like" 'cause those were just suggestions if you will, not absoulutly truths, plus i did say I'm watching close eye on him, but seeing the other posts I'm leaning toward town (note that I didn't say he is town for sure) Furthermore I'm not a really good mafia player (town or scum) so my reads are not THAT good, but from what I can see I don't seem to feel like Bolly is scum, also I think Ika is town too along with several others, including you scarbo, my only real 2 candidates for scum are Fulcrum and W1ngz as of right now, I guess u can say everyone else I'm not certain they are town, but etheir leaning toward town or I just don't feel them as scum.
I just noted it was akward his voting patterns early on and IF and just IF we find out that either fulcrum or w1ngz turn out to be town THEN that would be something of notice.
Furthermore I was expresing my toughts as I was reading trought the posts,but when I got a lot further I did lean toward town, but I already had sent the first post, but I just tought that his early behavor was something worth to look into it, I was not saying he was scum or town.