@EDH: I'm asking the two main players separately because of the apparent dissonance between you
Human: Bur still appears to want to focus on Brigade. Do you share his feelings on them?
Bur: Why do you perceive yourself (EDH) as your own biggest mafia read other than Brigade? Why such a disparity with Human?
-Kankennon-
I apparently misunderstood bur in the qt, however I do believe the points I made against flamingo are valid. I will say that bur and I spoke about it afterwards and in those discussions bur agreed that we do indeed need to pressure flamingo. He was just confused about the vote. Onto your question, I agree that brigade's actions have been scummy, however, brigade also had to step away from the game for a few days so it would be impossible to question him further at the time being. Hence why I wanted to engage flamingo, however, they too are not posting.. There's not much we can do about that but wait.
My opinions on brigade are that they are indeed scummy in behavior, but I have no familiarity with Teia's gameplay, others have stated that this is normal for her. Thus my next point:
I"m interested in seeing Brigade and TTA lay down their cases for why the other is scum as well.
As for that, why TTA are you guys so apprehensive about doing so? You say that you take all inference out of the equation by setting up a staged situation. However, I believe the focus of that situation would be the information you both have compiled, not what we read from a staged situation that would change the dynamic of the game, is that right Kank? I'm particularly interested in your defense against their claims.
Brigade how do you feel about the idea that Kank proposed? Do you have any qualms?
Post 150 is exactly what I mean by timing. You seem to be playing up to the notes I laid down, only problem is neither but not human have remembered their previous stances it seems.
Bur was the one suspicious of flamingos for what they called lurking, and human was wanting more info before judging them. Suddenly human wants them lynched and bur is against it? Doesn't sit right at all.
~ gen
I do not "suddenly want them lynched," as you state, you seem to have missed this:
"The vote is meant to apply pressure on Flamingo to participate or risk lynch. We agree that we need to see more from them before lynch but without pressure they will never have any reason to post." In post 146. I want the info, and the vote was put there to pressure that info, not to lynch them.
I recommend a little more reading, this is the second time you've "misremembered" something from us. Slinging some mud?
~human
Sorry, I kind of forgot about this game. EDH has taken over Brigade for my top scum read. I think something of particular noteworthiness is 150, where Bur freaks out at Human for voting Flamingo. If they were town I'd think they'd just discuss this in their hydra chat. But Bur wanted everyone to see that not EVERYONE on the EDH hydra was onto Flamingo, meaning Bur is overly concerned with their perception (self-conscious). Looking at Human's post where he votes and explains his vote on Flamingo, I can't get behind his belief that he thinks they're scum. It's like he's fishing for a reason to vote him.
Oh, I forgot about that game. It's pretty rare, though - I can't recall anyone recently who played in his or her first scum game and wasn't tipping his or her hand with newb-scumtells.
Quote from Crafters »
If Brigade is town to you, then why not try to talk TA into looking elsewhere for scum?
Because I think TA is scum.
Quote from Crafters »
Why would you risk the game on an assumption instead of actively scumhunting?
Because townhunting, and solidifying those townreads, is far more effective in smaller games, where in addition to yourself you can PoE out most of the playerbase quite easily.
I learned this when I hydraed with Taredas in Porcelain Waltz - in a newb-heavy smaller playerbase, it's drastically easier to hunt town than scum. Leaves scum very little room to attack, too.
Quote from EDH »
However, I'd still like to hear more WHY Flamingo gave us Town-pass. While there is some reasoning, that still doesn't convince me. There's a chance that they are trying to distance themselves from lynching a town by saying that we are town, since I'm not buying that one that easily.
While some of the things you guys have said made me second guess a bit (the self-awareness, and fencesitting in #50, for one) you guys have had a string of genuine town posts I struggle to see from two players playing their first games as scum.
Human is coming from a mindset of trying to solve the game - that's why he's voting us (but we're town). Human's asking of why Crafters are voting them and Bur's and Human's transparency in #68 and #75 are making me townread them.
Quote from TA »
Flamingos, since gen is in your Not Town pile, what do you make of his PBPAs?
I always have trouble reading Generic, and prefer to sort him out by flips. In my world, it's easier to develop and solidify townreads on half of the playerbase than to pin down an accurate read on Generic.
I've never seen Generic be so PBPA-happy before, though.
Mislynches are built into the game - and I'm pretty confident that two of {Family, TA, Gaymers} are scum. Only way we lose this is if one of {Crafters, Brigade, EDH} are scum.
We're town. I'd be willing to bet the game on Brigade being town. That leaves Crafters and EDH. If I'm sure that all three are town, we lynch down that pile and automatically win.
However, I believe the focus of that situation would be the information you both have compiled, not what we read from a staged situation that would change the dynamic of the game, is that right Kank?
I want to see why each clan thinks the other is scum with each of them using specific details. I want to see whether their arguments are sound or baseless.
What is your current stance on Flamingo (post Human-Bur disagreement)?
@TA: Why are you convinced that the mafia wants to see a point/counterpoint debate between you and Brigade?
What about the rest of us that want to see exactly why you are voting for each other?
What are you imagining the mafia being able to capitalize on with such an argument?
@Gaymers: I want to hear where you stand now on Flamingo.
Quote from Flamingo »
I can't recall anyone recently who played in his or her first scum game and wasn't tipping his or her hand with newb-scumtells.
EDH is calling their own behavior scummy (at least Bur is), so why are you so willing to overlook them?
Quote from Flamingo »
Because townhunting, and solidifying those townreads, is far more effective in smaller games, where in addition to yourself you can PoE out most of the playerbase quite easily.
I learned this when I hydraed with Taredas in Porcelain Waltz - in a newb-heavy smaller playerbase, it's drastically easier to hunt town than scum. Leaves scum very little room to attack, too.
Since this is not a newb-heavy game (other than EDH, there are a lot of veteran players here), why aren't you scumhunting in addition to townhunting?
Quote from Flamingo »
I always have trouble reading Generic, and prefer to sort him out by flips. In my world, it's easier to develop and solidify townreads on half of the playerbase than to pin down an accurate read on Generic.
I've never seen Generic be so PBPA-happy before, though.
Mislynches are built into the game - and I'm pretty confident that two of {Family, TA, Gaymers} are scum. Only way we lose this is if one of {Crafters, Brigade, EDH} are scum.
We're town. I'd be willing to bet the game on Brigade being town. That leaves Crafters and EDH. If I'm sure that all three are town, we lynch down that pile and automatically win.
This sounds both lazy and careless to me. What is your plan then? Say eeny-meeny-miney-moe and randomly lynch somebody in your "not sure if town" list and hope for the best?
@Generic: sorry about the avatar. iPhones don't like doing things like that
Votecount 1.06
The Tolarian Academy [2]: Clan Flamingo (88), MTGS Brigade (115) [Spirit of EDH] [2]: [The Crafters] (63), The Family (160)
Clan Flamingo [1]: [Spirit of EDH] (142) MTGS Brigade [2]: Gaymers (97), The Tolarian Academy (106)
Okay, so, I'm back. I'll probably miss some things because of the sheer volume of content that's popped up since I went V/LA, but I'll try to hit the important stuff. If I missed anything someone would like addressed, just ask it and I'll answer.
Oh and to put it in no uncertain terms, I'm all for that point/counterpoint idea Kank proposed. A summary of my case against Academy is included in my response to him below.
I do however want to know what Teias opinion is on uncoordinated hydras being scummy, cos I don't see how that translated as scummy in her mind.
The reason I think of it as scummy is for two basic reasons. The first is what I elaborated on earlier in the thread, that in my mind it's an anti-town behaviour: An unfocused hydra will have their reads and cases diluted, be overall less effective at identifying scum, and be harder for others to clear as town because of the inherently conflicting nature of their posting (inconsistency often being scummy and all). The second is that it allows a scum hydra to have their cake and eat it too, by leveraging those contradictory reads into a case of "Person A in this hydra went after that now-flipped townie with a bad case, sure, but I didn't do anything of the sort, so we're not really town" WIFOM nonsense. Admittedly, I'm not used to playing a game so heavily reliant on hydras, so this may be entirely wrong in the eyes of more experienced players, but that's how I see it going into this game.
I don't recall ever giving you my consent about voting Flamingo. All I've been talking about has been about voting Brigade... So could you please leave "we" out of your posts?
While I agree that I'd like to hear more from Flamingo (and Gaymers), still voting without consulting me (and no, "I'm going to vote for them and I think you'll agree with me" doesn't count)...
I will say this much, the naked surprise/anger does seem superficially townie. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder why this has to be addressed so strongly in the game thread rather than the hydra chat. My conclusions are similar to Gaymers', in that he wants this indignation to be seen. It's a very "hey, everyone, look at how townie I am" with a dash of the second reason above for why I consider hydra dissonance scummy. If things turn out poorly, then it makes backpedaling easier. If it turns out well, he can go "oh okay I guess you were right" to his partner for the apparently maverick vote.
To be clear, though, I'll fully believe that Bur didn't expect Human to vote like that. I just don't believe Bur's reaction is as genuine as he wants it to seem. But I feel compelled to ask this of Bur specifically, though: If you objected to the vote so strongly that you felt the need to yell at Human in the game thread, why wouldn't you unvote? Sure, Human claims he talked to you and ironed it out, but in that moment, you had some very strong objections, much more than the simple "confusion" Human asserts you had. 150 reads of anger and indignation to me, not confusion.
To be honest, if I were anyone else, I'd be voting for us. I'm getting my biggest mafia-reads from us besides Brigade.
So... why draw attention to this? What sort of statement were you trying to make, exactly?
If you are town, wouldn't you easily be able to shoot down their arguments against you?
No.
And why not? It should be simple enough. Even bad townies unintentionally sending off scummy signals can clear themselves given enough discourse.
As I said, a point/counterpoint post is exactly the cover mafia wants.
See, that's the thing I disagree with. In fact, it exactly fits in with one of the basic reasons I think you're scum. You're trying way too hard for some kind of "I don't have to defend myself" attitude, but you're just coming across as evasive. You turn simple questions asked of you into attacks on other people, while rewriting history to pretend you did in fact answer them. Hell, you engage in outright deflection, like in 151, where you responded to pressure on yourself by asking, "But what about EDH?" I'm still seeing very scant analysis, and the analysis I do see is either wishy-washy (as in 48) or extremely shallow (as in 92). You make unexplained leaps of logic in your attacks on me (not explaining why you considered EDH town until asked) and rely on appeals to emotion without further developing your reads based on logic (by explaining that you think EDH is town because he reminds you of yourself in a game in which you were town). At every point I'm seeing you asking questions, pressing others, and doing your best to appear productive without really doing anything. When asked if you'd like to engage in dialogue to make analysis easier, you refuse, claiming it's "what the mafia wants."
I have a simple question for you: When do you intend to provide more content that others can use to analyze you that doesn't include simply pressuring others or deflection? Because the stuff I've seen so far (especially 48, 92, and 120) looks pretty scummy and you're apparently intent to subject yourself to as little scrutiny as possible.
Or I'm misreading and you're saying you won't vote for anyone else this game day, to which I have to say, that's a fairly locked-in statement to make. You're so sure that no emerging information will change your reads?
Because townhunting, and solidifying those townreads, is far more effective in smaller games, where in addition to yourself you can PoE out most of the playerbase quite easily.
I learned this when I hydraed with Taredas in Porcelain Waltz - in a newb-heavy smaller playerbase, it's drastically easier to hunt town than scum. Leaves scum very little room to attack, too.
How would you respond to someone from that list flipping town? Would you insist on proceeding down the list undeterred?
(but we're town)
...
We're town.
Why this repetition? It's simply assumed that someone will assert themselves to be town, so there's no need to draw attention to it twice in one post. Between that and trying to justify exclusively town-hunting instead of scum-hunting, this is feeling kind of scummy. And you're willing to "bet the game" on me being town? That feels like buddying.
I'm still convinced Academy is scum, because his actions are consistently scummy as hell. EDH is still my bet for his buddy, but Flamingo's acting suspiciously here, so IGMEOY.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Bur: Why do you perceive yourself (EDH) as your own biggest mafia read other than Brigade? Why such a disparity with Human?
1) Well, starting with our fencing in the early game, and then Human changing his opinion quite quickly and then my lack of usefulness...
2) Are you asking why I am not having same opinions as Human? Because we are different people and we approach this game from different angles.
What is your current stance on Flamingo (post Human-Bur disagreement)?
While I can't be sure about Human's stance, I'm still rather conflicted. My gut says no. My brains say possibly.
The same also applies to Family. My brains so no. My gut screams yes.
Anyways, back to Flamingo.
What I find bit conserning is Flamingo's blind faith in us. While their point is dead-on about us, I still find it bit concerning that I can't sense an inchling of suspicion towards us, which would make sense if were a town.
While they didn't jump in the "EDH is mafia" bandwagon at that time (and like I earlier said, that would've made sense if they were mafia), they still seem to be having blind faith in us. If this were any other day, I could believe it more easily (since they could have some information), but since this is still Day 1 with no nights, so no one is supposed to have any information, besides mafia knowing each other.
I mean, I don't trust anyone here complitely, not even my town reads.
neither bur nor human have remembered their previous stances...
I would like to know what exactly are you referring to with this. (Okay, I kind of understand you regarding Human.)
If you are talking about our opinions changing, I don't recall this game forbidding one from changing his/her opinions in the span of 2½ weeks.
But Bur wanted everyone to see that not EVERYONE on the EDH hydra was onto Flamingo, meaning Bur is overly concerned with their perception (self-conscious).
If you think blaming your inability to commit to a read on cognitive/emotional dissonance will absolve you, Bur, you're wrong.
@Kank: If EDH flips scum I think we might have to look at Flamingo. Post iso reveals paranoia and that EDH is overly concerned with Flamingo's activity and presentation:
Like it was said, I would like to hear ANYTHING from Flamingos. They have only one post ("confirm") and while they might have issues with their real life, I'm kind of starting to think they are just lurking.
I too am looking to hear from Clan Flamingo, but I think that the issues at hand are enough to start conversation. I don't find there to be any reason to jump to conclusions this early when we're all fishing for any possible hints. I personally will not make an all in decision until more information presents itself.
This reads like EDH is aware Flamingo isn't looking great and is presented with a predicament. Simultaneously they don't want to implicate Flamingo but don't want to look like they're not suspicious when they should be.
Flamingo - While he hasn't really contributed much, I can't say much regarding him. However, since he did not jump "EDH is mafia" bandwagon and apparently trusts us, it made me doubt that he'd be mafia. If mafia, I would've expected him to vote us, since we've been giving strong mafia-vibes. He wouldn't have needed to state much reasons since the way I understood it, it's "self-explanatory". Whether or not I had been his mafia-mate (can I say that?), it would've been logical to vote us if he was.
Datum: Flamingo town reads EDH, doesn't jump on their "bandwagon" (hyperbolic paranoia)
Conclusion: Flamingo doubtfully scum
Anyways, back to Flamingo.
What I find bit conserning is Flamingo's blind faith in us. While their point is dead-on about us, I still find it bit concerning that I can't sense an inchling of suspicion towards us, which would make sense if were a town.
While they didn't jump in the "EDH is mafia" bandwagon at that time (and like I earlier said, that would've made sense if they were mafia), they still seem to be having blind faith in us. If this were any other day, I could believe it more easily (since they could have some information), but since this is still Day 1 with no nights, so no one is supposed to have any information, besides mafia knowing each other
Datum: Flamingo town reads EDH, doesn't jump on their "bandwagon" (hyperbolic paranoia)
Conclusion: Suspicious that Flamingo is scum
If you think blaming your inability to commit to a read on cognitive/emotional dissonance will absolve you, Bur, you're wrong.
@Kank: If EDH flips scum I think we might have to look at Flamingo. Post iso reveals paranoia and that EDH is overly concerned with Flamingo's activity and presentation:
Like it was said, I would like to hear ANYTHING from Flamingos. They have only one post ("confirm") and while they might have issues with their real life, I'm kind of starting to think they are just lurking.
I too am looking to hear from Clan Flamingo, but I think that the issues at hand are enough to start conversation. I don't find there to be any reason to jump to conclusions this early when we're all fishing for any possible hints. I personally will not make an all in decision until more information presents itself.
This reads like EDH is aware Flamingo isn't looking great and is presented with a predicament. Simultaneously they don't want to implicate Flamingo but don't want to look like they're not suspicious when they should be.
Flamingo - While he hasn't really contributed much, I can't say much regarding him. However, since he did not jump "EDH is mafia" bandwagon and apparently trusts us, it made me doubt that he'd be mafia. If mafia, I would've expected him to vote us, since we've been giving strong mafia-vibes. He wouldn't have needed to state much reasons since the way I understood it, it's "self-explanatory". Whether or not I had been his mafia-mate (can I say that?), it would've been logical to vote us if he was.
Datum: Flamingo town reads EDH, doesn't jump on their "bandwagon" (hyperbolic paranoia)
Conclusion: Flamingo doubtfully scum
Anyways, back to Flamingo.
What I find bit conserning is Flamingo's blind faith in us. While their point is dead-on about us, I still find it bit concerning that I can't sense an inchling of suspicion towards us, which would make sense if were a town.
While they didn't jump in the "EDH is mafia" bandwagon at that time (and like I earlier said, that would've made sense if they were mafia), they still seem to be having blind faith in us. If this were any other day, I could believe it more easily (since they could have some information), but since this is still Day 1 with no nights, so no one is supposed to have any information, besides mafia knowing each other
Datum: Flamingo town reads EDH, doesn't jump on their "bandwagon" (hyperbolic paranoia)
Conclusion: Suspicious that Flamingo is scum
So, are you leaning scum or town on Flamingo then?
#1 I'm quite neutral.
EDH can't it all three ways: doubting Flamingo is scum, suspicious that Flamingo is scum, and neutral towards Flamingo's alignment.
So which is it?
~scarbo
I'm going to go ahead and point out that your reads are out of order and I find that important in this situation.
Bur specifically went from, doubting, to neutral, to suspicious.
He's not having it all 3 ways, that is a clear progression, over time he's leaning harder on scum as he sees more from them.
I thought that it would be important to point that out because with the current listed order it seems like he's just making a new opinion whenever he feels the urge. It is clear that he wanted to doubt them because being alone is scary, and if they're town we're one step closer to winning the game. He then goes on to make a good point in the hydra about why he feels suspicious. There's a lot of push for us and the only ones not to vote for us are Flamingo's and TTA. TTA has been really suspicious lately with their dodging of kank's suggestion. Flamingo is a harder read, but they really don't contribute often,their argument that a game with lots of newbs makes townhunting more effective doesn't hold; there are plenty of vets(I assume since you all seem to know each other from other games) in this game.
Bur makes the point that at this point scum are the only ones who know who other scum and towns are, so having such faith in the towns is unnerving. Also at this point if TTA and Flamingo are both scum they wouldn't even have to vote for us, they could just sit back and watch because there are enough towns to lynch.
TTA why are you so set on brigade and still against Kank's discussion? Will you answer now that brigade has taken the initiative?? Also after the most recent post can you still defend your reasoning?
Also +1 to Brigade for participating in Kank's discussion and for a good post.
In reference to that post, I also found Flamingo's repetition of being town fishy. In the past I would have ignored it, but someone pointed out why it was scummy when I did something similar earlier in the thread. I think the difference here was that I was frustrated at the blunders we as a hydra were making early game and wanted to try to assure people "we are town." Looking back it's clear that everyone would claim "we are town." The problem here is that Flamingo has nothing to defend, we pressured him and he responds with a nonchalant, 'oh that's silly, we're town!" Why the need to push specifically that you are town there? Instead why didn't you respond to my accusation that if you're wrong on your reads will you be ignoring scumtells in the future because you're so set in your gameplay?
Brigade makes a good point, what if someone does flip scum on your town list?
I read only post 162 and post 162 only because I only had time to read one post and I like Flamingo's avatar.
Is there something really weird with the gamestate that those reads are anything approaching reality? Because two of Flamingo's scumreads are my two town reads and his town list includes two of the clans I'm thinking for scum.
Friday is when I get the time to read, if I remember to mafia.
1) Well, starting with our fencing in the early game, and then Human changing his opinion quite quickly and then my lack of usefulness...
2) Are you asking why I am not having same opinions as Human? Because we are different people and we approach this game from different angles.
Why would you call those traits explicitly scummy in nature?
I expect people to disagree, I just want to know why your vociferous disagreement with him was brought out in here as opposed to privately in your QT.
Quote from Gaymers »
@Kank: If EDH flips scum I think we might have to look at Flamingo. Post iso reveals paranoia and that EDH is overly concerned with Flamingo's activity and presentation:
We "might" have to look at Flamingo? How about a close look at Flamingo before then?
What about your tenacious focus on "scummier than your shower" Brigade? Where did that go?
Quote from EDH »
It is clear that he wanted to doubt them because being alone is scary, and if they're town we're one step closer to winning the game.
Don't you mean "scum" here? Please clarify who you're talking about at this point.
@TA: Why not a PBPA on Brigade, your supposed archenemy, instead of a halfhearted look at Wheat's posts? What am I--chopped liver?
What conclusion have you drawn from from doing that and why did you stop at #71?
Quote from Tolarian Academy »
post 71: Clear post on EDH's scumminess. It is the second post of the game to have an whole cast read breakdown. I don't like them slotting Brigade under scum. The preceding post seems like a carefree snap judgment of letting Brigade off the hook, like she's clean. I can't get into the mindset where he puts her down as having any further thoughts to trouble him.
Is this your way of stating that you don't really think Brigade is scum?
By the way, this is what Wheat said about Brigade there "Brigade: If truly scum, I will catch him/her (can't remember Teia's gender) eventually because s/he is putting out posts."
TA, answer this without beating around the bush: Do you still think that Brigade is scum?
In that statement I was saying that at the time we believed that if we they were town we'd be one step closer. Do note we started this game on more of a town hunt and have evolved into scum hunting since then. That was a reflection of the thought process at the time, not our current one. (Just reread, the "they're" is a "They were", not "they are." also we were not we are.)
As for TTA's post, that will take some time to analyze, I'll have something up about that sometime tomorrow probably, possibly tonight but I have some irl things to do.
@TA: Wheat's analogy about going fishing? No clue. You'll have to ask him when he gets back in.
Okay, you have a fresh start. Who is scum in the new Academy world? It looks like EDH is interested in knowing that as well. You're welcome to specifically case me now if you like.
If not me, then might I suggest taking a look at EDH, Flamingo, and Gaymers?
I'm still waiting to hear back from Flamingo and where Gaymers now stands on Brigade.
In that statement I was saying that at the time we believed that if we they were town we'd be one step closer. Do note we started this game on more of a town hunt and have evolved into scum hunting since then. That was a reflection of the thought process at the time, not our current one. (Just reread, the "they're" is a "They were", not "they are." also we were not we are.)
As for TTA's post, that will take some time to analyze, I'll have something up about that sometime tomorrow probably, possibly tonight but I have some irl things to do.
~Human
This feels like a scum slip to me.
~ gen
I explained that sentence in the next one so that no one would get confused by my intention there.
Brigade looks scum because even with all her persistence, her thought flows tool well, her argument looks to be squeezed into the buzzwords she decided she wanted to use, her actual disposition followed public opinion for that little while as I said, and her excusing of Crafters did not look credible.
I'm noticing you still aren't putting in much detail here.
I do not know how to live up to the ideal that you imply about developing logic. I presented an account of my thinking regarding alignments at the times it seemed prudent to do so, and I wasn't about to make up reasons for those intuitions that I didn't have.
Mafia is, at its core, a game about communication. You communicate ideas to others and analyze both the message and delivery of that communication. An intuitive style cuts out a lot of the communicative process because people see premises and conclusions but don't see the arguments used to get there. All I ask is simple: Put your thoughts and intuition into word better. If you're going to leap to clearing people as town or condemning them as scum, then there's no one single correct format in which to express yourself—just do it however comes naturally and others can figure it out.
I look scum but you no longer think I'm scum? You provide arguments against me in 174, but don't seem to reverse your read there. You acquiesce to some of my criticisms, sure, but you don't seem to contradict this quoted section. Then in 179 you say you don't think I'm scum and unvote me.
What even are your reads now, anyway? Along with reasoning, if you would.
Also as far as 's request goes, I'm still not sold on Academy. I'll have to see where they go from here, because I can't ignore things like their unexplained "Teia looks scummy" -> "I don't think Teia's scum" leap. There is some promising analysis in 174 but I'm waiting to see if it's sustainable and whether or not there will be any scum slips, since I can't tell if this is a backpedal or a real turnaround and I'll need some more content from him before I make that determination.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
You know, TA's post #175 is essentially worthless, and something I don't think a scum player would do at this point in the game. I feel that the scum team has already written us off as town, and wouldn't go through the effort of posting a useless half-PBPA like that. Nobody would be on board on lynching us with that. TA has not been playing well this game nor has been very cooperative, but I'm starting to feel the vibes of frustrated confused towny in their essence. I'm not seeing the scum motivation.
Crafter's I've been wondering. You asked Bur what he thought was scummy of us, then wrote most of it off. So what exactly is your reasoning for having a vote on EDH. It's been there for a long time and hasn't moved, does that mean your opinion hasn't changed since the beginning of the game?
Crafter's I've been wondering. You asked Bur what he thought was scummy of us, then wrote most of it off. So what exactly is your reasoning for having a vote on EDH. It's been there for a long time and hasn't moved, does that mean your opinion hasn't changed since the beginning of the game?
~Human
Bur has yet to answer these followup questions from me:
Why would you call those traits explicitly scummy in nature?
I expect people to disagree, I just want to know why your vociferous disagreement with him was brought out in here as opposed to privately in your QT.
I've narrowed the scum team down to you, Flamingo, and Gaymers. I definitely appreciate you still playing while remaining under my scrutiny.
It makes perfect sense to me as to why Gaymers (starring scarbo AKA Swishh) clammed up when I arrived if indeed they are scum. For a history lesson as to why, I point you to Basic #77 for your enjoyment: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/497150-77-porn-star-mafia-the-porn-supremacy-game-over
Why would you call those traits explicitly scummy in nature?
I expect people to disagree, I just want to know why your vociferous disagreement with him was brought out in here as opposed to privately in your QT.
Fencing: Not being sure about anything, not making up one's mind only to go with the public opinion about who is mafia. Please explain to me how is that town-like behaviour.
Changing opinions: Not really sticking with opinion and joining others for the kill. Going for the easy kill.
Lack of usefulness: I don't recall contributing to this game much besides making people confused.
Oh and that I'm pretty much relying on other's (Humans or you guys) analysis on the game to make up my mind, instead of deducing anything myself.
So... why draw attention to this? What sort of statement were you trying to make, exactly?
An honest statement with no stings attached. Also, I tried turning into a luring post for you to doubt us more to see who would join into it. Still, I managed to get pretty much everyone EXCEPT TA and Flamingo to doubt (and most of the time, vote for) us...
Human already posted about this why it is unnerving.
My post #150 was written as an instant reply to Human's post with no thinking. I came home, saw that post and wrote a reply when I was rather... emotionally overwhelmed.
PS: Like I already mentioned in #150, I've been busy with work and too tired to focus on the game. Expect me to get back properly on the weekend.
Crafters, Wheat(I believe) earlier in the game said that if Teia were scum they would indeed catch her because she is putting things out there to be analyzed. By this logic shouldn't Gaymers or flamingos be your top read and where your vote lies at the moment? I don't know if any hydra has responded more than us at this point, but I can assure you we have more info than them. I have a dentist appointment, I'll post some useful analysis when I return.
Kraj here. First of all, let me apologize for the lack of activity. There are a variety of comtributing factors, but primarily: I have a tendancy towards playing poorly day 1 and was hoping to let scarbo take the lead while I offered support and analysis. Instead he vanished. Despite finally posting, he has yet to participate in our hydra thread. So, yeah.
With that in mind @Kank: "What about your tenacious focus on 'scummier than your shower' Brigade?" That was my opinion (and hardly tenacious). At this point, posts 115 and 124 have softened my scum read on Teia. There's a lot of meat to more recent posts that I still have to digest. I certainly still have my suspicions, and I still absolutely detest the b.s. argument that "unhelpful behavior" indicates a scum mindset (it doesn't. 9 times out of 10 poor play is just that, regardless of alignment) I'm more willing to believe that her argument is motivated honestly rather than a fabricated attack.
Similarly, my opinion of Flamingo's logic is low but I'm reading him town. In post 103 he says "if our reads are correct...game solved." This is a "No ****, Sherlock" thing to say but it's also pretty typical of a townie. The meta defense of Teia is also indicative of townie (who often rely on blunt, aka poor, meta analysis in the early game.) Clearly the low content level is a concern, but if that's the only real evidence at this point I'm sticking with my town read.
My read on EDH has slid toward scum; while not my top pick, I'm content to stick with scarbo's vote. Post 95 greatly concerns me, with the overconfidence on his reads and the applause-worthy performance from Crafters if they are scum comment. It feels forced compared to Flamingos similar confidence in his PoE. In 142 EDH votes Flamingo only after being called out for not taking a stand, and the supporting reasoning is mostly evidence of poor play rather than scummy play. In 150 bur has a heated disagreement with human, and I can't help but think this is a show considering how gen had recently explained why he thought dissension within the hydra is a towns tell.
Tolarian Academy has now topped my scum list. Recall TA was previously my second pick for scum. In post 120 HH explains that they think EDH is town because of trying to solve the game in a single post. That's exactly what Flamingos did 17 posts earlier, but went unnoticed by TA. And though TA has poked at Flamingo for low content, they haven't given any indication whatsoever of a read. I'm not sure what to think of the seeming case on Crafters out of the blue but 179 shot them to the top of my list. As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes HH unvotes but then offers no new suspect, nor any explanation for reversing their strongest stance in a matter of a few hours.
My ranking:
Family
Crafters
Flamingo
Brigade
EDH
TA
With Wheat being so busy, I've been mostly talking to myself in our QT.
@EDH (Bur): Why not try to deduce something on your own? Part of playing mafia is making up your own mind and having your own decisions, even if they differ from others. You're bound to make mistakes, but that's all part of the game.
@EDH (Human): You have more posts than Flamingo and Gaymers combined. What I would like to see is more independent thinking on your part. I don't want an echo chamber. I want to hear your own voice in this. I want to see you take a close look at what other clans have done and are doing and ask new questions or point out things you feel others may have missed. If you want leads, I would take a close look at Flamingo and Gaymers and see if something stands out as odd to you about their behavior. What are they saying about each other? What have they flip-flopped on or done that seems out of place to you? Find your own voice. I want to hear it. If you are town, then stand up and sing dammit!
Here's some incentive for you to do just that:
Unvote
@Gaymers: What is it about TA's post #179 that shot them to the top of your scum list?
@TA: August 3rd. Here's what I said in my notes at the time:
Flamingo just keeps looking worse and worse, with no scumhunting from them in sight.
At this point, all I can guess is that it's an EDH/Flamingo scum team.
Since then, Gaymers has replaced EDH in that coveted spot, with EDH now in third place.
(That was before Gaymer's post #194 too--which didn't help them any.)
The Tolarian Academy (2): Clan Flamingo (88), MTGS Brigade (115)
Spirit of EDH (1): The Family (160)
Clan Flamingo (1): Spirit of EDH (142)
Gaymers (1): The Tolarian Academy (195)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
KANK HERE
@Gaymers: What is it about TA's post #179 that shot them to the top of your scum list?
As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes HH unvotes but then offers no new suspect, nor any explanation for reversing their strongest stance in a matter of a few hours. RTFP
(That was before Gaymer's post #194 too--which didn't help them any.)
Please explain:
1. Why, other than general lack of posting, you find us scummy?
2. What problems you have with my post 194?
3. Why not vote when your top 3 suspects have only one vote a piece?
@TA: I'm giving EDH a chance at redemption, much like I gave to you and Brigade. That, and with them moving into my #3 spot, I didn't think it was fair to still be voting for them at the same time.
You're getting a fresh start now that you've washed your hands of Brigade. I wanted to know what was next for you. Since I asked that question of you, you have gone after Gaymers, which I definitely approve of.
@Gaymers:
1) I don't like that Gaymers up and disappeared for so long, and of the few posts that Gaymers has had in this game since #97, none have sat well with me.
Post #97: EDH is "is so bad it actually makes me think he's town" (leaning town) while Brigade "is scummier than my shower" and Flamingo?
Quote from Gaymers »
Flamingo - Lack of posting is troubling, lack of content when finally posted is troubling. While not completely terrible, post 88 just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. To be fair, though, there's a lot of content to digest so a light first post is understandable. Too early to call, but absolutely suspicious.
Parse that out: troubling, troubling, bad taste, understandable (!?), suspicious
One of these things is not like the other.
#161: Gaymers finally returns to give a quick "Sorry, I kind of forgot about this game. EDH has taken over Brigade for my top scum read." and ends with "Will vote EDH or Brigade today."
(By pure coincidence I'm sure, Flamingo said in the post right after that, "Oh, I forgot about that game.")
#171: (scarbo) "If EDH flips scum I think we might have to look at Flamingo."
Jackpot! This was actually the post that swapped out EDH with Gaymers in my book for a most likely Flamingo/Gaymers scum team.
Note, that they are only willing to possibly look at Flamingo "If EDH flips scum" and not before that point, which they damn well should want to do before anyone flips anything--that is--if they were town. This tells me that Gaymers somehow knows that EDH will flip town and has future excuse why they shouldn't look at Flamingo later built right in to their EDH offense.
Oh, and then says "This reads like EDH is aware Flamingo isn't looking great"--so Flamingo isn't looking great, but you think you might only want to look at them if EDH flips scum? Not buying it.
Now the rest of that post? Trying to say that EDH is scum because they had three different opinions of Flamingo at varying times.
Nothing on Brigade now too? (They unvoted in the following post.)
2) Now onto #194: (Kraj) On Flamingo--"my opinion of Flamingo's logic is low but I'm reading him town" then lists weak reasons as to why, including a meta defense of Teia (who keep in mind was still scum previous to that point) then absolutely nothing on Brigade until the end, "As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes"
So a weakly laid out defense of why Flamingo is town, yet no excuse as to why Brigade is (or isn't)?
You'd still be on Brigade if it was a popular wagon or what?
So are we to assume that Kraj cleaned up his scummy shower since post #97? (Or even since scarbo's #161?)
Weak defense of Flamingo and virtually nothing on Brigade? Yeah.
All signs are pointing to a Flamingo/Gaymers scum team in my book.
3) Because I want to vote when I only have 2 top suspects, and I feel that time is very soon. Besides, I wanted to give Wheat a chance to play too. Why the rush?
First things first, Academy never did answer that apparent contradiction of saying that I look like scum, with a bit of a case on me no less, only to leap to "no I don't think Teia's scum anymore." If your goal was to be more transparent, you should explain opinion reversals like that so it doesn't look like a flimsy backpedal.
EDH claiming their self-deprecation was a gambit to see who'd join in doubting them doesn't inspire me, since Bur just kept on doing it. Claiming he was emotionally overwhelmed enough to yell at Human in the thread doesn't quite answer why he took the public instead of private route to chewing Human out.
You know, TA's post #175 is essentially worthless, and something I don't think a scum player would do at this point in the game.
I've made worthless desperation plays as scum (hell, in Mod Mafia 5, I was scum and actually posted a thoroughly useless and unfinished bit of interaction analysis in a desperate bid to appear townie, and it worked), so it's not necessarily a townie gesture on his part. That's why I'm trying to get more information from him to determine what's going through his head as he posts here. If he gives scummy answers, then I can reaffirm a scum read. If he gives townie answers, then I can reevaluate my read of him accordingly.
I certainly still have my suspicions, and I still absolutely detest the b.s. argument that "unhelpful behavior" indicates a scum mindset (it doesn't. 9 times out of 10 poor play is just that, regardless of alignment)
Unhelpful play also comes from things like active lurking, crap logic, etc, all of which can be scum tells.
In post 103 he says "if our reads are correct...game solved." This is a "No ****, Sherlock" thing to say but it's also pretty typical of a townie.
My problem with that is that while there's something to be said about saying ***** and even pitching bad ideas to get reactions, backing it up like chain lynching through a pile is a good idea makes me think he's taking it a little far for a townie. Flamingo aren't idiots. They have to realize the implications of the fact that we only get one mislynch to work with, and 3v2 lylo tomorrow is not a good place to be. Then Flamingo goes and says he'd "bet the game" on me being town (which reads as buddying). I was going to reemphasize the question I asked him, what happens if the first lynch through his pile flips town, but then I realized he actually hasn't posted since then, so who knows. The longer he goes without posting, the more it feels like he's intentionally lurking, and that's pretty scummy. Plus I really don't like his "we're town" repetition in 162.
I am suspicious of Flamingos in regards to the lack of expense made with his posts. If we assume he's innocent then the 'gambler idea' he's proposed is something he honestly believes in. But then where is the effort or curiosity to clear EDH, Crafters, and Brigade?
In 103, he used meta to clear me, offers a flimsy "driving discussion" defense for Crafters, and EDH, he claims "high effort newbies" are town, which is easily the weakest of the three. In 130, he claims EDH "reads genuine" and turns the question back around on Crafters to provide examples of high effort scum newbies. That, in retrospect, makes me pause, because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the burden of proof. In a nutshell, if someone makes an assertion, the burden of proof is on them to support it. It's not on their interlocutor to refute it unsupported.
That would suggest a Flamingo/EDH scumteam on the grounds that offering two relatively good reasons to clear someone and one shallow one, followed by a fallacious rebuttal to questioning of that shallow one is pretty damn suspicious in hindsight—it'd be a quick and dirty way of clearing his buddy without too much scrutiny, especially with how little he posts to defend himself, and minutiae like that misplaced burden of proof can easily get lost in the shuffle. But there aren't three scum, and I'm not sure what to think of Academy without further information.
But Academy/Flamingo? From Flamingo's side of things, Flamingo said in 162 that he prefers to sort Gen out "by flips," but I'm not sure that's really busing him (lynch him first, hit scum, lynch town, then lynch town) without delving into WIFOM territory. From Academy's side of things, he was relatively harsh towards Flamingo in 92 (saying he looks "very dirty") and bluntly demanded Flamingo show his work in 106, but that's mellowed to mere "suspicion" by 195, without committing to a scum read. Posting observations but no reads is a thing I've had against Academy for a while now, so I'll just ask this: What's your read on Flamingo? What supports this read?
And of course there's my previous Academy/EDH theory, supported more by their individual signals than through interaction. Academy did have that appeal to emotion defense for clearing EDH in 120, though, along with that "what would continuing to pressure EDH accomplish?" defense. And as of 195, Academy is fence-sitting again. EDH did pressure Academy as to why he refused to engage in 's back-and-forth idea, though. He doesn't seem to have posted the analysis promised in 178, though. But from the sounds of 193, Human has some real-life stuff going on, so we'll see what that analysis is like when we get there.
Unvote until I can confidently state only two scum suspects.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
@TA
Did you just ride the coattails of Kank's scum read on us? You haven't said anything to or about us since 92 where you said we had a "solid post." You also set yourself up to be suspicious of Flamingo, for the first time.
@Kank
You're splitting hairs and really going to town with it. What I meant by "If EDH flips scum, we might have to look at Flamingo" was "I think EDH's behavior is implicating Flamingo, but I don't have a scum read on Flamingo." How will our town flip effect your opinion of Flamingo?
@Teia
How about confidently stating just ONE scum suspect?
What's up with all the "scum team" hunting without any flips? This makes no sense.
@Kank
You're splitting hairs and really going to town with it. What I meant by "If EDH flips scum, we might have to look at Flamingo" was "I think EDH's behavior is implicating Flamingo, but I don't have a scum read on Flamingo." How will our town flip effect your opinion of Flamingo?
Order is very important. Flamingo will have already flipped scum the day before. In all that is scum, they are the fulcrum.
Why are you more worried about Flamingo than yourself?
What I want from gaymers are two detailed reads. One for brigade and one for flamingos. Once I read the. I will form a more rounded view of this hydra.
This is going to be a big wall of text, so here's the tl;dr version:
Almost the entirety of Kank's case against us is based on the assumption that Flamingos is scum, which is absolutely horrible logic and - considering the consisently solid analysis both Crafters have posted thus far - surprising, disappointing, and troubling. Further the case is lacking in any actual evidence, he just attacks us with rhetoric. Nor does he ask any questions to indicate he's interested in the reasoning behind our actions, he just wants to call us scum. Contrast it with gen's very reasonable, very well-thought-out case, my response to which I can't really summarize.
After rereading Flamingos, I'm more confident they are town. Brigade has a ton more content to give a thoughtful reread on, and will take more time.
1) I don't like that Gaymers up and disappeared for so long,
There's a bold stance to take.
Quote from Crafters »
Post #97: EDH is "is so bad it actually makes me think he's town" (leaning town) while Brigade "is scummier than my shower"
Care to provide the scumtell here?
Quote from Crafters »
and Flamingo?
Quote from Gaymers »
Flamingo - Lack of posting is troubling, lack of content when finally posted is troubling. While not completely terrible, post 88 just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. To be fair, though, there's a lot of content to digest so a light first post is understandable. Too early to call, but absolutely suspicious.
Parse that out: troubling, troubling, bad taste, understandable (!?), suspicious
One of these things is not like the other.
So?
Quote from Crafters »
#161: Gaymers finally returns to give a quick "Sorry, I kind of forgot about this game. EDH has taken over Brigade for my top scum read." and ends with "Will vote EDH or Brigade today."
(By pure coincidence I'm sure, Flamingo said in the post right after that, "Oh, I forgot about that game.")
So the insinuation here is that scarbo claiming to forget about this game, and Flamingos claiming to forget about a particular player's past behavior in a particular past game that contradicts their opinion on how newb scum behaves, is evidence of collusion? If anyone else thinks this is anything but nonsense, please speak up. Or perhaps I've misinterpretted. That's a possibly since, again, you don't actually explain what's scummy here.
Quote from Crafters »
2) Now onto #194: (Kraj) On Flamingo--"my opinion of Flamingo's logic is low but I'm reading him town" then lists weak reasons as to why, including a meta defense of Teia (who keep in mind was still scum previous to that point)
So because I think a player is scummy, I should automatically think someone who doesn't is scummy?
Quote from Crafters »
then absolutely nothing on Brigade until the end, "As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes"
That is an outright lie. My entire second paragraph is devoted to Brigade. I referenced two posts that influenced my read. Why are you not thoroughly reading my posts? Why are you not asking me to provide more detail about the posts I claimed influence my read? Aren't you interested in whether I have good reasons to back up my reads?
Quote from Crafters »
So a weakly laid out defense of why Flamingo is town,
A. Having a town read on someone is not defending them. Disagreeing with other people's reads is not defending. Arguing why other people's reads are wrong is defending.
B. Having weak reasons for a town read is good enough for me when the arguments supporting a scum read are weak.
Quote from Crafters »
All signs are pointing to a Flamingo/Gaymers scum team in my book.
Then your book should not be published. Because that's terrible logic, and very dissappointing from someone who seems to be providing a lot of solid analysis to make such a pedestrian error as linking two players of unknown alignment.
Quote from Crafters »
3) Because I want to vote when I only have 2 top suspects, and I feel that time is very soon. Besides, I wanted to give Wheat a chance to play too. Why the rush?
I don't consider placing a second vote on a player whom you are confident is scum "a rush". I presume Wheat has the right to change your vote if he wants, no?
SUMMARY: this case is atrocious, and I have a reeeeeeeally hard time accepting it as honest scumhunting.
Re gen's case:
Re post 86: I think you're forgetting how early in the game this was. How much content really was there for scarbo to base a "summary" for every player off of?
Re post 97: There are seven players in the game, 6 'other' players, maybe 5 if you consider Flamingos had only one brief post. There were less than 100 posts thus far. How much variety in reads were you expecting?
Re post 171: What is the fear of hammer range? I can't speak as to what was in scarbo's mind, but the small number of players in the game makes the dynamics very different. L -2 is normally claim range; obviously this can't apply and hasn't applied. L-1 on an unclaimed player is normally considered dangerous, but is there a risk of scum fast-hammering when there's only 2 of them? Probably not. But these are things we as a town have not discussed. We probably should, but it's rather unfair to hold this against us.
Re post 194: "...which when you are town should not be the primary thought process."
Your read is absolutely correct: my primary motivation is not to find scum nor to win. It is to enjoy playing this game. I retired from mafia because, due to a variety of factors, playing the game became a miserable experience instead of a fun one. I play every once in a while with the hope it will be fun, and attempting to avoid situations that make me hate playing is part of that. Further, despite the amount of effort and strong play I've put into past games, my win record is atrocious, so I don't much care about winning anymore either. It's completely up to you - all of you - if you want to believe me.
"the hand waing away of [Flamingos'] play as not having any evidence of their scummy play beyond a lack shows a lack of wanting to focus on them at all."
Yeah, I'd say that's a fair assesment. My perception was a player who has barely provided anything to go on, and so I had to make a gut call. Is there more content to their 5 posts? Yes. Was there anything more I found particularly relevant at that point? No. And since no one made much an argument against Flamingo other than repeatedly calling them lurking scum, there had been little to prod me to reconsider my gut read until Teia offered an alternative interpretation.
"Are you and scarbo not reading each others posts or interacting at all?"
I'm reading scarbo's posts but I thought I was very clear we weren't interacting. We have had absolutely zero private discussion, and I can't just shift my opinions around according to his posts.
'I find it rather odd that Kraj is on the fence about Flamingos but mentions them in other reads'
I'm aware that my point against T_A re Flamingos is arguably hypocritical, but even a throw-away read is something, no? Unless I've missed it, T_A has only described Flamingos with negative language but never given even an on-the-fence stance. Regarding EDH, my point had nothing to do with Flamingos and everything to do with only voting their suspect after someone else pointed out their lack of vote.
Re post 202: "Why attack Crafters for not laying a vote when you have them as a town read? That feels a little OMGUS in motivation."
Indeed it does, because that exactly describes my reaction. Unlike your post, which provides specifics for me to discuss and also shows evidence that you're thinking through both the town and scum explainations, Kank's post 198 lacks any evidence against us, asks a question that was already answered in the sentance following his quote, and ranks us scum using nothing but rhetoric. The only town motivation I can see in that post is if he is trying to provoke a reaction without necessarily genuinely believing we're scum, but I'm not willing to make that assumption. Instead I have to consider whether my read is wrong, which is why I asked questions in return. If it's not obvious, I find his answers to my questions troubling. I'm reluctant to conclude he's scum based on his case while I'm in the thick of it and emotional, but with so little substance and not even a hint of attempting to discern whether there are town motivations behind our actions, I have a hard time concluding otherwise.
"Why does it matter if all their suspects have only one vote each?"
The more votes on a player, the more reasonable it is to practice restraint. Fear of runaway wagons, premature claim ranges, and premature hammers are valid reasons to not vote. Indecisiveness is not.
What I want from gaymers are two detailed reads. One for brigade and one for flamingos. Once I read the. I will form a more rounded view of this hydra.
~ gen
Brigade has far too much content to give a thoughtftul reread on quickly, but I will do so within the next few days. Here is my reread of Flamingos:
88 - Proph will be main poster. Doesn't care about soft claim. Crafters and EDH are prob Town. Doesn't like TA reaction to name claim suggestion. Family/gen is annoying but town for now. Votes Tolarian Academy.
The worst offenses here are a lack of reasons and opinion on Gaymers and Brigade. It was a disappointing first post.
103 - Explains town reads and what was "off" about TA's reaction. Gives a town read on Brigade based on meta and provides examples. Makes the derpy "if we're right" comment. Still happy with vote on TA, and supplies the reason that they called Brigade scum without voting.
The reasoning provided makes up for the lack in their prior post. Noteably, Gaymers, EDH, and TA all had recently expressed suspicion of Brigade, but Flamingo chose not to hop on that wagon and called her town. The reason for their vote on TA is valid and, interestingly, Polski immediately votes Brigade and passes the buck for not voting to H_H, who doesn't address it at all.
130 - EDHs posts read genuine. Thinks TA's 'inside knowledge' reaction is panic. Said pointing out TA's lack of vote on Brigade was not an attempt to "goad". Explains his PoE approach.
Other than the PoE logic being...just awful, everything else here is fine. And my disagreeing with a playstyle does not make it scummy.
162 - Reiterates belief that newb scum are usually exibiting newb scum tells. Says he thinks TA is scum. Says townhunting and PoE is more effective than scumhunting in smaller games, based on prior experience. Explains town read on EDH with specfific examples. Says he has trouble reading Gen but notes his PBPAing is not the norm. Reiterates PoE logic.
Others have pointed out the repetition of townieness in this post, which is a good point. Initially I thought calling TA scum was contrary to his 'townhunting' logic that TA was merely scum due to PoE, but now I see he actually had active reasons for finding him scummy.
163 - Finds it strange that gen would vote Flamingos but then vote EDH after EDH votes Flamingos.
This is a fair question, and poking at gen is consistent with their statement of having a difficult time reading him.
After this reread I feel much more confident Flamingos is town. I see consistent stances, all supported by valid reasoning, and a pointed lack of following the crowd. Despite the low activity level, the content quality is high. The worst offense I see is a lack of analysis on Gaymers, the only scum-by-PoE they haven't given any active opinion on. And perhaps they should be providing more solid evidence to support their town reads if that's their focus.
Oh Kraj, you beautiful man you!
Did Swishh..I mean...scarbo not warn you about me?
I am a master of semantics!
Quote from Gaymers »
Care to provide the scumtell here?
Not everything is a scumtell, that was setting the base for #97, the future, and what was then said about Flamingo. The irony here is, "Care to provide the scumtell here?" is an intrinsically scummy way to ask that question.
Quote from Gaymers »
So?
This is in regards to: "Parse that out: troubling, troubling, bad taste, understandable (!?), suspicious
One of these things is not like the other."
This is awareness of Flamingo and them being off, yet has an inexplicable excuse for them doing so stuck in the middle.
Quote from Gaymers »
So the insinuation here is that scarbo claiming to forget about this game, and Flamingos claiming to forget about a particular player's past behavior in a particular past game that contradicts their opinion on how newb scum behaves, is evidence of collusion? If anyone else thinks this is anything but nonsense, please speak up. Or perhaps I've misinterpretted. That's a possibly since, again, you don't actually explain what's scummy here.
Now this is pure gold right here. What I meant as mere sarcasm elicited a panicky response and overreaction from Gaymers. This is not a town reaction. This is a scum reaction, mortified that I read premeditated collusion between scumbuddies through something the Gaymers could not have known that Flamingo would say right after them. Of course you had no clue they would say that, but your overreaction here just gave you away. I threw a small rock into the pond and you reacted to it like it was a grenade. Absolutely priceless.
Quote from Gaymers »
So because I think a player is scummy, I should automatically think someone who doesn't is scummy?
My point there was that your explanation as to why Flamingo was town to you was weak and tepid.
Quote from Gaymers »
That is an outright lie. My entire second paragraph is devoted to Brigade. I referenced two posts that influenced my read. Why are you not thoroughly reading my posts? Why are you not asking me to provide more detail about the posts I claimed influence my read? Aren't you interested in whether I have good reasons to back up my reads?
By all means, explain away!
Of course you mentioned Brigade in paragraph two, my qualm is that after that point, between Flamingo's "meta defense of Teia" and "As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes" your mentions of EDH and TA are sorely lacking any comparing and contrasting with Brigade (who supposedly ranks just above them) yet there is plenty PLENTY of mention of Flamingo, especially this gem: "In post 120 HH explains that they think EDH is town because of trying to solve the game in a single post. That's exactly what Flamingos did 17 posts earlier, but went unnoticed by TA."
Gaymers wanted to specifically point out that TA was giving a town read to EDH for something Flamingo also did but wasn't given the same treatment. That's not the mentality of a town player defending another player they think is town. That's the mentality of a scum player trying to protect their teammate.
Quote from Gaymers »
I don't consider placing a second vote on a player whom you are confident is scum "a rush". I presume Wheat has the right to change your vote if he wants, no?
Wheat has seen first hand what I am capable of. Why so scared? Afraid I'll vote for you or Flamingo?
Quote from Gaymers »
SUMMARY: this case is atrocious, and I have a reeeeeeeally hard time accepting it as honest scumhunting.
And this line is a beauty. Uber-scummy forced overreaction and completely unbelievable. These are not the words of a town player.
Game, set, and match.
CCMVIII's scum team is Flamingo and Gaymers.
I'm happy to vote for either.
Is there anything anyone wants to accomplish before this day is over? Now is the time to say your peace.
Was busy with life for the last 2 days (1 week till I go back to college so lots of appointments were made for this week). Saying that, I'm going to go ahead and double post after reading what I've missed. You'll see something from me shortly.
As for the dynamic between you and EDH... Their reactions associated to you flamingos I am unable to decipher. My feelings you are scum are based on minimal input, vague contributions and an OMGUS.
How did we OMGUS you?
Other than leaving you on my PoE list I don't recall ever attacking you.
Quote from Family »
For a start though, how are you reading EDH?
I think EDH is probably town, as detailed in my last post.
Quote from Family »
Oh, and I would question the use of the word 'immediately'. I know you guys haven't bothered to read anything Proph but I actually pressed a lot of back and forth posts with EDH and wasn't on board with an actual vote on them until they misrepped. Their reaction read as frustration that I was pulling apart their attempts to get out of the hole they had dug themselves. It was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.
Alright, what's the scum mindset in one hydra-buddy yelling at the other in the thread, as opposed to saying something in the QT like "you messed up"?
In my experience, scum hydras are *much* harder to play as as opposed to town hydras. You have to fake all the "conversing" about reads and all that stuff that town hydras do naturally.
Quote from Crafters »
EDH is calling their own behavior scummy (at least Bur is), so why are you so willing to overlook them?
Did you read my post?
I noted down some things that were making me nervous about EDH, but I'm willing to overlook classical tells (self-awareness) in favor of mindset-orientated analysis (those genuine town posts by Human) every time.
Quote from Crafters »
Since this is not a newb-heavy game (other than EDH, there are a lot of veteran players here), why aren't you scumhunting in addition to townhunting?
I'm scumhunting, but putting a fair amount more effort in townhunting because it's /easier/.
Quote from Crafters »
This sounds both lazy and careless to me. What is your plan then? Say eeny-meeny-miney-moe and randomly lynch somebody in your "not sure if town" list and hope for the best?
I'm solving the game.
This method of townhunting is very difficult for scum to defend themselves against.
Quote from Brigade »
How would you respond to someone from that list flipping town? Would you insist on proceeding down the list undeterred?
I would re-evaluate my earlier town reads, and look at the manner players were attacking that town player.
Quote from Brigade »
Why this repetition? It's simply assumed that someone will assert themselves to be town, so there's no need to draw attention to it twice in one post. Between that and trying to justify exclusively town-hunting instead of scum-hunting, this is feeling kind of scummy. And you're willing to "bet the game" on me being town? That feels like buddying.
I repeat that I'm town in every game I play, regardless of alignment.
You're my most solid townread.
I think it goes Brigade > EDH > Crafters? Bit paranoid of Kank just taking control of the game.
Quote from Crafters »
Instead why didn't you respond to my accusation that if you're wrong on your reads will you be ignoring scumtells in the future because you're so set in your gameplay?
Can you please rephrase this? I don't understand your question.
Quote from Family »
This feels like a scum slip to me.
"This feels"? Wouldn't you be more excited in finding a scumslip from the person you're pushing?
(I don't think that's a slip)
Quote from Gaymers »
Other than the PoE logic being...just awful, everything else here is fine.
How is it awful? I think it's sound.
----
I'm appalled that the TTA wagon isn't getting steam. HH's #175 is just all summary and no analysis, and his #218 at the end there is blatant self-consciousness.
Look, I couldn't and mostly now still cannot think of productive things to say. I've tried to ask questions that put data on the table but when I try 'taking perspectives' to see what isn't genuine or feels shifty, I don't have any conclusive feelings.
~H_H
I'll start here,this response is something I would suspect from H_H at this point of the game. He has made it clear that he's learning to analyze players this game as he plays. This is consistent with his focus on Brigade, when one is learning it is easiest to focus on one target. It's even more clear in his next statement.
"You're right I haven't analyzed many players. I have made moves to hunt scum, and it wouldn't spoil anything to tell you about them. Back when I called Crafters posts 'anomalies', I was thinking about how his approach has been just these questions, and wondering if it was a strategy to hide in plain sight, stirring the pot without actually needing to give the game direction. I figured I could set that word out there and see if he overcompensates his image. It didn't end up producing any apparent scummy behaviour.
I tried doing a PBPA (of Crafters) and was sure I wasn't doing it right, so I kept it to myself. I mean, as I said, I couldn't come up with anything other than a redescription of the facts, plus scant subjective and conditional reasoning. I do have a few things that look to be worth saying though, so I'll put them right after this post."
Here TTA shows that he makes an active attempt to hunt others he suspects could be scum but is frustrated because he can't make heads nor tails of the evidence. What I'm reading here is a frustrated town that is trying to be helpful but became overzealous in his attempt to find scum.
Rereading the rest of the post and the current contributions from TTA have pushed me to think they are town. TTA and specifically H_H then decided to focus Gaymers (a suggestion from crafters). This makes sense for H_H's playstyle so far. He now finds his original read wrong and moves onto his next scumread until proven wrong.
I'm going to stop the TTA read here because I have more important things to say before end of day 1.
While reading through TTA's posts something he said unnerves me. In reference to a post by Crafters about Teia being ok for now because they are posting content and if they continue they will catch her eventually.
TTA's rebuttal was that Crafters "And when asked about it, he said something about fishing and that he doesn't know anything about fishing. Point?"
This was dodgy and when I later brought it up:
EDH post193: "Human chiming in.
Crafters, Wheat(I believe) earlier in the game said that if Teia were scum they would indeed catch her because she is putting things out there to be analyzed. By this logic shouldn't Gaymers or flamingos be your top read and where your vote lies at the moment? I don't know if any hydra has responded more than us at this point, but I can assure you we have more info than them. I have a dentist appointment, I'll post some useful analysis when I return.
~Human"
Crafters: @EDH (Human): You have more posts than Flamingo and Gaymers combined. What I would like to see is more independent thinking on your part. I don't want an echo chamber. I want to hear your own voice in this. I want to see you take a close look at what other clans have done and are doing and ask new questions or point out things you feel others may have missed. If you want leads, I would take a close look at Flamingo and Gaymers and see if something stands out as odd to you about their behavior. What are they saying about each other? What have they flip-flopped on or done that seems out of place to you? Find your own voice. I want to hear it. If you are town, then stand up and sing dammit!
They dodge the question about where their vote lies and try to motivate me to find my own voice, while at the same time leading me to look at Gaymers and flamingo.. and away from themselves. Crafters up until this point has had a strong leadership of town and has been directing the town towards his reads. This amount of influence disturbs me.
They then chalk up their vote change to giving us a second chance just like they did brigade and TTA. Why did they give us a second chance, I read this as "if I decided you would be lynched." To be able to give redemption one has to be in a seat of power. Without power redemption means nothing, where does this power Crafters have come from?
I'm also interested in TTA's PBPA of Crafters, he's the only one (other than a comment I made earlier in the game) that has even considered the idea that Crafters could be scum. In a game like this logic is king, but he mentions that he can't get over the feeling that he should do the PBPA, he just doesn't know why he has that feeling.
In my experience people don't just feel things, there's usually a reason they had the urge. He also must have had a strong urge because he went ahead and attempted the PBPA.
In reference to the vote on gaymers: The vote came from TTA shortly after being directed there by Crafters. Crafters claims he wants us to think for ourselves and make our own decisions but then he directs us towards his reads. Instead of making our own decisions he's letting us believe we're making the decision, but the decision is one that benefits him.
This manipulation is something I've been wary of for a few pages and I thought I should make it clear so TTA will make sure they are making the decision they want and not what they're being directed towards.
GAYMERS:
Gaymers have been posting more content lately to analyze.
I've already brought up my argument about how ludicrous gaymer's statement on bur's opinions about flamingo. They were out of order and flamingo had posted in between the posts. That entire analysis of brigade was akin to garbage and I'm not afraid to say it.
People have been bringing up the statement about how H_H changed their vote when the "Brigade wagon waned in popularity."
This made me look back at Crafter's questioning of TTA and wanting them to label their points against each other. At first I thought that this was a good idea but after reading back I noticed that it essentially vilified Brigade. TTA had been evasive of the idea and after they agreed that brigade was no longer scummy Crafters never pressured as to why they were apprehensive. He seemed content that Brigade was safe. Brigade had answered him instantly fortifying his town status, however, it's as though crafters expected TTA not to answer. This enabled Brigade to look less scummy and made TTA appear scummy and elusive.
However, crafters doesn't follow up with questioning, instead he pushes TTA to look at gaymers and Flamingos.
Looking back the argument doesn't look like scum hunting at all, instead it looks like a defense of a scum partner(brigade).
Gaymers then has a point when he points out that Crafters entire argument is based on flamingo being scum. I don't read gaymer's post as a scum post, I read it as a frustrated and attacked town trying to respond.
Crafter's laughs off the post and says they are confident in voting for the two, however I am not as certain.
UNVOTE
I'm really glad Crafters told me to think for myself and look back, thanks to that they've moved up into my top 3 scum. Not because they are inherently scummy, they are good players, that's why they wouldn't make the scum mistakes a novice would make. They are, however, directing the action right now in ways that don't feel town at all. The point-by-point discussion looks scummier than ever reading back on it.
I want your opinion TTA since you were the first to suggest that he artificial set up of the point by point argument would be exactly what the scum wanted.
PS. Just a note I realized while thinking back, TTA did unvote abruptly at the pressure of Crafters and crafters didn't question it at all unlike other players.
Pretty empty post from Flamingos just defending their stance. The part about being afraid Kank will take over the game is interesting as it reflects my concerns as well.
I want your opinion TTA since you were the first to suggest that he artificial set up of the point by point argument would be exactly what the scum wanted.
That's not how I meant it. It didn't make Crafters look scummy itself; I was just concerned that it was a blunder, like it would allow Brigade to 'agree' and make a scummish post. Someone spontaneously posting persuasively is a hint that they're not uninformed, and removing the ability to read into that was just stupid.
While reading through TTA's posts something he said unnerves me. In reference to a post by Crafters about Teia being ok for now because they are posting content and if they continue they will catch her eventually.
TTA's rebuttal was that Crafters "And when asked about it, he said something about fishing and that he doesn't know anything about fishing. Point?"
@EDH (Bur): Why not try to deduce something on your own? Part of playing mafia is making up your own mind and having your own decisions, even if they differ from others. You're bound to make mistakes, but that's all part of the game.
Because you could pick a rock from the street and it would probably be better at analysing this game compared to me. I SUCK at cold reads and therefore have left that for Human. I prefer to play it via other ways (reading emotions and reactions, gestures and things like that, which I can't use in internet-mafia).
Anyways, while Human already said quite much, I think there is this one thing that he missed (that also raised my suspicions):
Game, set, and match.
CCMVIII's scum team is Flamingo and Gaymers.
I'm happy to vote for either.
This seems like really OoC-moment for Crafters, considering their playstyle. They've been activelly questioning us, taking things slowly with no rush and prefering to know everything there is to know (aka. questioning everything and not jumping the gun).
Then suddenly they do 180, declares thaat the game is over since he figured out the mafia and tells us to vote them off...
~Bur
Private Mod Note
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Where are you Gaymers? It's been a week now since you last posted! Are you worried that I might ask you some questions?
-Kankennon-
I'll get back in the game in a few days. Getting stuff done IRL is taking longer than expected.
-Wheat
I apparently misunderstood bur in the qt, however I do believe the points I made against flamingo are valid. I will say that bur and I spoke about it afterwards and in those discussions bur agreed that we do indeed need to pressure flamingo. He was just confused about the vote. Onto your question, I agree that brigade's actions have been scummy, however, brigade also had to step away from the game for a few days so it would be impossible to question him further at the time being. Hence why I wanted to engage flamingo, however, they too are not posting.. There's not much we can do about that but wait.
My opinions on brigade are that they are indeed scummy in behavior, but I have no familiarity with Teia's gameplay, others have stated that this is normal for her. Thus my next point:
I"m interested in seeing Brigade and TTA lay down their cases for why the other is scum as well.
As for that, why TTA are you guys so apprehensive about doing so? You say that you take all inference out of the equation by setting up a staged situation. However, I believe the focus of that situation would be the information you both have compiled, not what we read from a staged situation that would change the dynamic of the game, is that right Kank? I'm particularly interested in your defense against their claims.
Brigade how do you feel about the idea that Kank proposed? Do you have any qualms?
~Human
I do not "suddenly want them lynched," as you state, you seem to have missed this:
"The vote is meant to apply pressure on Flamingo to participate or risk lynch. We agree that we need to see more from them before lynch but without pressure they will never have any reason to post." In post 146. I want the info, and the vote was put there to pressure that info, not to lynch them.
I recommend a little more reading, this is the second time you've "misremembered" something from us. Slinging some mud?
~human
Will vote EDH or Brigade today.
~scarbo
Oh, I forgot about that game. It's pretty rare, though - I can't recall anyone recently who played in his or her first scum game and wasn't tipping his or her hand with newb-scumtells.
Because I think TA is scum.
Because townhunting, and solidifying those townreads, is far more effective in smaller games, where in addition to yourself you can PoE out most of the playerbase quite easily.
I learned this when I hydraed with Taredas in Porcelain Waltz - in a newb-heavy smaller playerbase, it's drastically easier to hunt town than scum. Leaves scum very little room to attack, too.
While some of the things you guys have said made me second guess a bit (the self-awareness, and fencesitting in #50, for one) you guys have had a string of genuine town posts I struggle to see from two players playing their first games as scum.
Human is coming from a mindset of trying to solve the game - that's why he's voting us (but we're town). Human's asking of why Crafters are voting them and Bur's and Human's transparency in #68 and #75 are making me townread them.
I always have trouble reading Generic, and prefer to sort him out by flips. In my world, it's easier to develop and solidify townreads on half of the playerbase than to pin down an accurate read on Generic.
I've never seen Generic be so PBPA-happy before, though.
Mislynches are built into the game - and I'm pretty confident that two of {Family, TA, Gaymers} are scum. Only way we lose this is if one of {Crafters, Brigade, EDH} are scum.
We're town. I'd be willing to bet the game on Brigade being town. That leaves Crafters and EDH. If I'm sure that all three are town, we lynch down that pile and automatically win.
~p
Can you clarify your read on us, and how that relates to your EDH read?
Feels /weird/ that you call us scum and vote for us, but once EDH hops on voting one of your scumreads you immediately switch to them.
~p
I want to see why each clan thinks the other is scum with each of them using specific details. I want to see whether their arguments are sound or baseless.
What is your current stance on Flamingo (post Human-Bur disagreement)?
@TA: Why are you convinced that the mafia wants to see a point/counterpoint debate between you and Brigade?
What about the rest of us that want to see exactly why you are voting for each other?
What are you imagining the mafia being able to capitalize on with such an argument?
@Gaymers: I want to hear where you stand now on Flamingo.
EDH is calling their own behavior scummy (at least Bur is), so why are you so willing to overlook them?
Since this is not a newb-heavy game (other than EDH, there are a lot of veteran players here), why aren't you scumhunting in addition to townhunting?
This sounds both lazy and careless to me. What is your plan then? Say eeny-meeny-miney-moe and randomly lynch somebody in your "not sure if town" list and hope for the best?
-Kankennon-
Votecount 1.06
The Tolarian Academy [2]: Clan Flamingo (88), MTGS Brigade (115)
[Spirit of EDH] [2]: [The Crafters] (63), The Family (160)
Clan Flamingo [1]: [Spirit of EDH] (142)
MTGS Brigade [2]: Gaymers (97), The Tolarian Academy (106)
Not voting [0]
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Oh and to put it in no uncertain terms, I'm all for that point/counterpoint idea Kank proposed. A summary of my case against Academy is included in my response to him below.
The reason I think of it as scummy is for two basic reasons. The first is what I elaborated on earlier in the thread, that in my mind it's an anti-town behaviour: An unfocused hydra will have their reads and cases diluted, be overall less effective at identifying scum, and be harder for others to clear as town because of the inherently conflicting nature of their posting (inconsistency often being scummy and all). The second is that it allows a scum hydra to have their cake and eat it too, by leveraging those contradictory reads into a case of "Person A in this hydra went after that now-flipped townie with a bad case, sure, but I didn't do anything of the sort, so we're not really town" WIFOM nonsense. Admittedly, I'm not used to playing a game so heavily reliant on hydras, so this may be entirely wrong in the eyes of more experienced players, but that's how I see it going into this game.
I will say this much, the naked surprise/anger does seem superficially townie. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder why this has to be addressed so strongly in the game thread rather than the hydra chat. My conclusions are similar to Gaymers', in that he wants this indignation to be seen. It's a very "hey, everyone, look at how townie I am" with a dash of the second reason above for why I consider hydra dissonance scummy. If things turn out poorly, then it makes backpedaling easier. If it turns out well, he can go "oh okay I guess you were right" to his partner for the apparently maverick vote.
To be clear, though, I'll fully believe that Bur didn't expect Human to vote like that. I just don't believe Bur's reaction is as genuine as he wants it to seem. But I feel compelled to ask this of Bur specifically, though: If you objected to the vote so strongly that you felt the need to yell at Human in the game thread, why wouldn't you unvote? Sure, Human claims he talked to you and ironed it out, but in that moment, you had some very strong objections, much more than the simple "confusion" Human asserts you had. 150 reads of anger and indignation to me, not confusion.
So... why draw attention to this? What sort of statement were you trying to make, exactly?
And why not? It should be simple enough. Even bad townies unintentionally sending off scummy signals can clear themselves given enough discourse.
See, that's the thing I disagree with. In fact, it exactly fits in with one of the basic reasons I think you're scum. You're trying way too hard for some kind of "I don't have to defend myself" attitude, but you're just coming across as evasive. You turn simple questions asked of you into attacks on other people, while rewriting history to pretend you did in fact answer them. Hell, you engage in outright deflection, like in 151, where you responded to pressure on yourself by asking, "But what about EDH?" I'm still seeing very scant analysis, and the analysis I do see is either wishy-washy (as in 48) or extremely shallow (as in 92). You make unexplained leaps of logic in your attacks on me (not explaining why you considered EDH town until asked) and rely on appeals to emotion without further developing your reads based on logic (by explaining that you think EDH is town because he reminds you of yourself in a game in which you were town). At every point I'm seeing you asking questions, pressing others, and doing your best to appear productive without really doing anything. When asked if you'd like to engage in dialogue to make analysis easier, you refuse, claiming it's "what the mafia wants."
I have a simple question for you: When do you intend to provide more content that others can use to analyze you that doesn't include simply pressuring others or deflection? Because the stuff I've seen so far (especially 48, 92, and 120) looks pretty scummy and you're apparently intent to subject yourself to as little scrutiny as possible.
But you're already voting for me...
Or I'm misreading and you're saying you won't vote for anyone else this game day, to which I have to say, that's a fairly locked-in statement to make. You're so sure that no emerging information will change your reads?
How would you respond to someone from that list flipping town? Would you insist on proceeding down the list undeterred?
Why this repetition? It's simply assumed that someone will assert themselves to be town, so there's no need to draw attention to it twice in one post. Between that and trying to justify exclusively town-hunting instead of scum-hunting, this is feeling kind of scummy. And you're willing to "bet the game" on me being town? That feels like buddying.
I'm still convinced Academy is scum, because his actions are consistently scummy as hell. EDH is still my bet for his buddy, but Flamingo's acting suspiciously here, so IGMEOY.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
+Town Points to Teia
@Those voting for Brigade (or wants to): I want fresh reasons from you as to why
-Kankennon-
1) Well, starting with our fencing in the early game, and then Human changing his opinion quite quickly and then my lack of usefulness...
2) Are you asking why I am not having same opinions as Human? Because we are different people and we approach this game from different angles.
While I can't be sure about Human's stance, I'm still rather conflicted. My gut says no. My brains say possibly.
The same also applies to Family. My brains so no. My gut screams yes.
Anyways, back to Flamingo.
What I find bit conserning is Flamingo's blind faith in us. While their point is dead-on about us, I still find it bit concerning that I can't sense an inchling of suspicion towards us, which would make sense if were a town.
While they didn't jump in the "EDH is mafia" bandwagon at that time (and like I earlier said, that would've made sense if they were mafia), they still seem to be having blind faith in us. If this were any other day, I could believe it more easily (since they could have some information), but since this is still Day 1 with no nights, so no one is supposed to have any information, besides mafia knowing each other.
I mean, I don't trust anyone here complitely, not even my town reads.
I would like to know what exactly are you referring to with this. (Okay, I kind of understand you regarding Human.)
If you are talking about our opinions changing, I don't recall this game forbidding one from changing his/her opinions in the span of 2½ weeks.
And everyone is Jesus in Purgatory.
~Bur
@Kank: If EDH flips scum I think we might have to look at Flamingo. Post iso reveals paranoia and that EDH is overly concerned with Flamingo's activity and presentation:
This reads like EDH is aware Flamingo isn't looking great and is presented with a predicament. Simultaneously they don't want to implicate Flamingo but don't want to look like they're not suspicious when they should be.
But here are the nuggets:
Datum: Flamingo town reads EDH, doesn't jump on their "bandwagon" (hyperbolic paranoia)
Conclusion: Flamingo doubtfully scum
Datum: Flamingo town reads EDH, doesn't jump on their "bandwagon" (hyperbolic paranoia)
Conclusion: Suspicious that Flamingo is scum
EDH can't it all three ways: doubting Flamingo is scum, suspicious that Flamingo is scum, and neutral towards Flamingo's alignment.
So which is it?
~scarbo
Consider my vote on EDH.
~scarbo
I'm going to go ahead and point out that your reads are out of order and I find that important in this situation.
Bur specifically went from, doubting, to neutral, to suspicious.
He's not having it all 3 ways, that is a clear progression, over time he's leaning harder on scum as he sees more from them.
I thought that it would be important to point that out because with the current listed order it seems like he's just making a new opinion whenever he feels the urge. It is clear that he wanted to doubt them because being alone is scary, and if they're town we're one step closer to winning the game. He then goes on to make a good point in the hydra about why he feels suspicious. There's a lot of push for us and the only ones not to vote for us are Flamingo's and TTA. TTA has been really suspicious lately with their dodging of kank's suggestion. Flamingo is a harder read, but they really don't contribute often,their argument that a game with lots of newbs makes townhunting more effective doesn't hold; there are plenty of vets(I assume since you all seem to know each other from other games) in this game.
Bur makes the point that at this point scum are the only ones who know who other scum and towns are, so having such faith in the towns is unnerving. Also at this point if TTA and Flamingo are both scum they wouldn't even have to vote for us, they could just sit back and watch because there are enough towns to lynch.
TTA why are you so set on brigade and still against Kank's discussion? Will you answer now that brigade has taken the initiative?? Also after the most recent post can you still defend your reasoning?
Also +1 to Brigade for participating in Kank's discussion and for a good post.
In reference to that post, I also found Flamingo's repetition of being town fishy. In the past I would have ignored it, but someone pointed out why it was scummy when I did something similar earlier in the thread. I think the difference here was that I was frustrated at the blunders we as a hydra were making early game and wanted to try to assure people "we are town." Looking back it's clear that everyone would claim "we are town." The problem here is that Flamingo has nothing to defend, we pressured him and he responds with a nonchalant, 'oh that's silly, we're town!" Why the need to push specifically that you are town there? Instead why didn't you respond to my accusation that if you're wrong on your reads will you be ignoring scumtells in the future because you're so set in your gameplay?
Brigade makes a good point, what if someone does flip scum on your town list?
~Human
I read only post 162 and post 162 only because I only had time to read one post and I like Flamingo's avatar.
Is there something really weird with the gamestate that those reads are anything approaching reality? Because two of Flamingo's scumreads are my two town reads and his town list includes two of the clans I'm thinking for scum.
Friday is when I get the time to read, if I remember to mafia.
-Wheat
Why would you call those traits explicitly scummy in nature?
I expect people to disagree, I just want to know why your vociferous disagreement with him was brought out in here as opposed to privately in your QT.
We "might" have to look at Flamingo? How about a close look at Flamingo before then?
What about your tenacious focus on "scummier than your shower" Brigade? Where did that go?
Don't you mean "scum" here? Please clarify who you're talking about at this point.
@TA: Why not a PBPA on Brigade, your supposed archenemy, instead of a halfhearted look at Wheat's posts? What am I--chopped liver?
What conclusion have you drawn from from doing that and why did you stop at #71?
Is this your way of stating that you don't really think Brigade is scum?
By the way, this is what Wheat said about Brigade there "Brigade: If truly scum, I will catch him/her (can't remember Teia's gender) eventually because s/he is putting out posts."
TA, answer this without beating around the bush: Do you still think that Brigade is scum?
-Kankennon-
In that statement I was saying that at the time we believed that if we they were town we'd be one step closer. Do note we started this game on more of a town hunt and have evolved into scum hunting since then. That was a reflection of the thought process at the time, not our current one. (Just reread, the "they're" is a "They were", not "they are." also we were not we are.)
As for TTA's post, that will take some time to analyze, I'll have something up about that sometime tomorrow probably, possibly tonight but I have some irl things to do.
~Human
~Human
@TA: Wheat's analogy about going fishing? No clue. You'll have to ask him when he gets back in.
Okay, you have a fresh start. Who is scum in the new Academy world? It looks like EDH is interested in knowing that as well. You're welcome to specifically case me now if you like.
If not me, then might I suggest taking a look at EDH, Flamingo, and Gaymers?
I'm still waiting to hear back from Flamingo and where Gaymers now stands on Brigade.
-Kankennon-
@Brigade: I'd like you to give a new look at Tolarian Academy and tell me what you think.
-Kankennon-
@Family: Could you take a look at Gaymers and tell me what you think? I'd like a fresh set of eyes.
-Kankennon-
I explained that sentence in the next one so that no one would get confused by my intention there.
~Human
You still haven't answered what you're trying to accomplish by drawing attention to this.
I'm noticing you still aren't putting in much detail here.
Mafia is, at its core, a game about communication. You communicate ideas to others and analyze both the message and delivery of that communication. An intuitive style cuts out a lot of the communicative process because people see premises and conclusions but don't see the arguments used to get there. All I ask is simple: Put your thoughts and intuition into word better. If you're going to leap to clearing people as town or condemning them as scum, then there's no one single correct format in which to express yourself—just do it however comes naturally and others can figure it out.
Wait a second...
I look scum but you no longer think I'm scum? You provide arguments against me in 174, but don't seem to reverse your read there. You acquiesce to some of my criticisms, sure, but you don't seem to contradict this quoted section. Then in 179 you say you don't think I'm scum and unvote me.
What even are your reads now, anyway? Along with reasoning, if you would.
Also as far as 's request goes, I'm still not sold on Academy. I'll have to see where they go from here, because I can't ignore things like their unexplained "Teia looks scummy" -> "I don't think Teia's scum" leap. There is some promising analysis in 174 but I'm waiting to see if it's sustainable and whether or not there will be any scum slips, since I can't tell if this is a backpedal or a real turnaround and I'll need some more content from him before I make that determination.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
You know, TA's post #175 is essentially worthless, and something I don't think a scum player would do at this point in the game. I feel that the scum team has already written us off as town, and wouldn't go through the effort of posting a useless half-PBPA like that. Nobody would be on board on lynching us with that. TA has not been playing well this game nor has been very cooperative, but I'm starting to feel the vibes of frustrated confused towny in their essence. I'm not seeing the scum motivation.
-Kankennon-
~Human
Bur has yet to answer these followup questions from me:
Why would you call those traits explicitly scummy in nature?
I expect people to disagree, I just want to know why your vociferous disagreement with him was brought out in here as opposed to privately in your QT.
I've narrowed the scum team down to you, Flamingo, and Gaymers. I definitely appreciate you still playing while remaining under my scrutiny.
It makes perfect sense to me as to why Gaymers (starring scarbo AKA Swishh) clammed up when I arrived if indeed they are scum. For a history lesson as to why, I point you to Basic #77 for your enjoyment: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/497150-77-porn-star-mafia-the-porn-supremacy-game-over
-Kankennon-
Fencing: Not being sure about anything, not making up one's mind only to go with the public opinion about who is mafia. Please explain to me how is that town-like behaviour.
Changing opinions: Not really sticking with opinion and joining others for the kill. Going for the easy kill.
Lack of usefulness: I don't recall contributing to this game much besides making people confused.
Oh and that I'm pretty much relying on other's (Humans or you guys) analysis on the game to make up my mind, instead of deducing anything myself.
An honest statement with no stings attached. Also, I tried turning into a luring post for you to doubt us more to see who would join into it. Still, I managed to get pretty much everyone EXCEPT TA and Flamingo to doubt (and most of the time, vote for) us...
Human already posted about this why it is unnerving.
My post #150 was written as an instant reply to Human's post with no thinking. I came home, saw that post and wrote a reply when I was rather... emotionally overwhelmed.
PS: Like I already mentioned in #150, I've been busy with work and too tired to focus on the game. Expect me to get back properly on the weekend.
~Bur
Crafters, Wheat(I believe) earlier in the game said that if Teia were scum they would indeed catch her because she is putting things out there to be analyzed. By this logic shouldn't Gaymers or flamingos be your top read and where your vote lies at the moment? I don't know if any hydra has responded more than us at this point, but I can assure you we have more info than them. I have a dentist appointment, I'll post some useful analysis when I return.
~Human
With that in mind @Kank: "What about your tenacious focus on 'scummier than your shower' Brigade?" That was my opinion (and hardly tenacious). At this point, posts 115 and 124 have softened my scum read on Teia. There's a lot of meat to more recent posts that I still have to digest. I certainly still have my suspicions, and I still absolutely detest the b.s. argument that "unhelpful behavior" indicates a scum mindset (it doesn't. 9 times out of 10 poor play is just that, regardless of alignment) I'm more willing to believe that her argument is motivated honestly rather than a fabricated attack.
Similarly, my opinion of Flamingo's logic is low but I'm reading him town. In post 103 he says "if our reads are correct...game solved." This is a "No ****, Sherlock" thing to say but it's also pretty typical of a townie. The meta defense of Teia is also indicative of townie (who often rely on blunt, aka poor, meta analysis in the early game.) Clearly the low content level is a concern, but if that's the only real evidence at this point I'm sticking with my town read.
My read on EDH has slid toward scum; while not my top pick, I'm content to stick with scarbo's vote. Post 95 greatly concerns me, with the overconfidence on his reads and the applause-worthy performance from Crafters if they are scum comment. It feels forced compared to Flamingos similar confidence in his PoE. In 142 EDH votes Flamingo only after being called out for not taking a stand, and the supporting reasoning is mostly evidence of poor play rather than scummy play. In 150 bur has a heated disagreement with human, and I can't help but think this is a show considering how gen had recently explained why he thought dissension within the hydra is a towns tell.
Tolarian Academy has now topped my scum list. Recall TA was previously my second pick for scum. In post 120 HH explains that they think EDH is town because of trying to solve the game in a single post. That's exactly what Flamingos did 17 posts earlier, but went unnoticed by TA. And though TA has poked at Flamingo for low content, they haven't given any indication whatsoever of a read. I'm not sure what to think of the seeming case on Crafters out of the blue but 179 shot them to the top of my list. As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes HH unvotes but then offers no new suspect, nor any explanation for reversing their strongest stance in a matter of a few hours.
My ranking:
Family
Crafters
Flamingo
Brigade
EDH
TA
-Kraj
With Wheat being so busy, I've been mostly talking to myself in our QT.
@EDH (Bur): Why not try to deduce something on your own? Part of playing mafia is making up your own mind and having your own decisions, even if they differ from others. You're bound to make mistakes, but that's all part of the game.
@EDH (Human): You have more posts than Flamingo and Gaymers combined. What I would like to see is more independent thinking on your part. I don't want an echo chamber. I want to hear your own voice in this. I want to see you take a close look at what other clans have done and are doing and ask new questions or point out things you feel others may have missed. If you want leads, I would take a close look at Flamingo and Gaymers and see if something stands out as odd to you about their behavior. What are they saying about each other? What have they flip-flopped on or done that seems out of place to you? Find your own voice. I want to hear it. If you are town, then stand up and sing dammit!
Here's some incentive for you to do just that:
Unvote
@Gaymers: What is it about TA's post #179 that shot them to the top of your scum list?
@TA: August 3rd. Here's what I said in my notes at the time:
Flamingo just keeps looking worse and worse, with no scumhunting from them in sight.
At this point, all I can guess is that it's an EDH/Flamingo scum team.
Since then, Gaymers has replaced EDH in that coveted spot, with EDH now in third place.
(That was before Gaymer's post #194 too--which didn't help them any.)
-Kankennon-
The Tolarian Academy (2): Clan Flamingo (88), MTGS Brigade (115)
Spirit of EDH (1): The Family (160)
Clan Flamingo (1): Spirit of EDH (142)
Gaymers (1): The Tolarian Academy (195)
Not Voting: The Crafters, Gaymers
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes HH unvotes but then offers no new suspect, nor any explanation for reversing their strongest stance in a matter of a few hours. RTFP
Please explain:
1. Why, other than general lack of posting, you find us scummy?
2. What problems you have with my post 194?
3. Why not vote when your top 3 suspects have only one vote a piece?
-Kraj
@TA: I'm giving EDH a chance at redemption, much like I gave to you and Brigade. That, and with them moving into my #3 spot, I didn't think it was fair to still be voting for them at the same time.
You're getting a fresh start now that you've washed your hands of Brigade. I wanted to know what was next for you. Since I asked that question of you, you have gone after Gaymers, which I definitely approve of.
@Gaymers:
1) I don't like that Gaymers up and disappeared for so long, and of the few posts that Gaymers has had in this game since #97, none have sat well with me.
Post #97: EDH is "is so bad it actually makes me think he's town" (leaning town) while Brigade "is scummier than my shower" and Flamingo?
Parse that out: troubling, troubling, bad taste, understandable (!?), suspicious
One of these things is not like the other.
#161: Gaymers finally returns to give a quick "Sorry, I kind of forgot about this game. EDH has taken over Brigade for my top scum read." and ends with "Will vote EDH or Brigade today."
(By pure coincidence I'm sure, Flamingo said in the post right after that, "Oh, I forgot about that game.")
#171: (scarbo) "If EDH flips scum I think we might have to look at Flamingo."
Jackpot! This was actually the post that swapped out EDH with Gaymers in my book for a most likely Flamingo/Gaymers scum team.
Note, that they are only willing to possibly look at Flamingo "If EDH flips scum" and not before that point, which they damn well should want to do before anyone flips anything--that is--if they were town. This tells me that Gaymers somehow knows that EDH will flip town and has future excuse why they shouldn't look at Flamingo later built right in to their EDH offense.
Oh, and then says "This reads like EDH is aware Flamingo isn't looking great"--so Flamingo isn't looking great, but you think you might only want to look at them if EDH flips scum? Not buying it.
Now the rest of that post? Trying to say that EDH is scum because they had three different opinions of Flamingo at varying times.
Nothing on Brigade now too? (They unvoted in the following post.)
2) Now onto #194: (Kraj) On Flamingo--"my opinion of Flamingo's logic is low but I'm reading him town" then lists weak reasons as to why, including a meta defense of Teia (who keep in mind was still scum previous to that point) then absolutely nothing on Brigade until the end, "As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes"
So a weakly laid out defense of why Flamingo is town, yet no excuse as to why Brigade is (or isn't)?
You'd still be on Brigade if it was a popular wagon or what?
So are we to assume that Kraj cleaned up his scummy shower since post #97? (Or even since scarbo's #161?)
Weak defense of Flamingo and virtually nothing on Brigade? Yeah.
All signs are pointing to a Flamingo/Gaymers scum team in my book.
3) Because I want to vote when I only have 2 top suspects, and I feel that time is very soon. Besides, I wanted to give Wheat a chance to play too. Why the rush?
-Kankennon
EDH claiming their self-deprecation was a gambit to see who'd join in doubting them doesn't inspire me, since Bur just kept on doing it. Claiming he was emotionally overwhelmed enough to yell at Human in the thread doesn't quite answer why he took the public instead of private route to chewing Human out.
I've made worthless desperation plays as scum (hell, in Mod Mafia 5, I was scum and actually posted a thoroughly useless and unfinished bit of interaction analysis in a desperate bid to appear townie, and it worked), so it's not necessarily a townie gesture on his part. That's why I'm trying to get more information from him to determine what's going through his head as he posts here. If he gives scummy answers, then I can reaffirm a scum read. If he gives townie answers, then I can reevaluate my read of him accordingly.
Unhelpful play also comes from things like active lurking, crap logic, etc, all of which can be scum tells.
My problem with that is that while there's something to be said about saying ***** and even pitching bad ideas to get reactions, backing it up like chain lynching through a pile is a good idea makes me think he's taking it a little far for a townie. Flamingo aren't idiots. They have to realize the implications of the fact that we only get one mislynch to work with, and 3v2 lylo tomorrow is not a good place to be. Then Flamingo goes and says he'd "bet the game" on me being town (which reads as buddying). I was going to reemphasize the question I asked him, what happens if the first lynch through his pile flips town, but then I realized he actually hasn't posted since then, so who knows. The longer he goes without posting, the more it feels like he's intentionally lurking, and that's pretty scummy. Plus I really don't like his "we're town" repetition in 162.
In 103, he used meta to clear me, offers a flimsy "driving discussion" defense for Crafters, and EDH, he claims "high effort newbies" are town, which is easily the weakest of the three. In 130, he claims EDH "reads genuine" and turns the question back around on Crafters to provide examples of high effort scum newbies. That, in retrospect, makes me pause, because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the burden of proof. In a nutshell, if someone makes an assertion, the burden of proof is on them to support it. It's not on their interlocutor to refute it unsupported.
That would suggest a Flamingo/EDH scumteam on the grounds that offering two relatively good reasons to clear someone and one shallow one, followed by a fallacious rebuttal to questioning of that shallow one is pretty damn suspicious in hindsight—it'd be a quick and dirty way of clearing his buddy without too much scrutiny, especially with how little he posts to defend himself, and minutiae like that misplaced burden of proof can easily get lost in the shuffle. But there aren't three scum, and I'm not sure what to think of Academy without further information.
But Academy/Flamingo? From Flamingo's side of things, Flamingo said in 162 that he prefers to sort Gen out "by flips," but I'm not sure that's really busing him (lynch him first, hit scum, lynch town, then lynch town) without delving into WIFOM territory. From Academy's side of things, he was relatively harsh towards Flamingo in 92 (saying he looks "very dirty") and bluntly demanded Flamingo show his work in 106, but that's mellowed to mere "suspicion" by 195, without committing to a scum read. Posting observations but no reads is a thing I've had against Academy for a while now, so I'll just ask this: What's your read on Flamingo? What supports this read?
And of course there's my previous Academy/EDH theory, supported more by their individual signals than through interaction. Academy did have that appeal to emotion defense for clearing EDH in 120, though, along with that "what would continuing to pressure EDH accomplish?" defense. And as of 195, Academy is fence-sitting again. EDH did pressure Academy as to why he refused to engage in 's back-and-forth idea, though. He doesn't seem to have posted the analysis promised in 178, though. But from the sounds of 193, Human has some real-life stuff going on, so we'll see what that analysis is like when we get there.
Unvote until I can confidently state only two scum suspects.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Did you just ride the coattails of Kank's scum read on us? You haven't said anything to or about us since 92 where you said we had a "solid post." You also set yourself up to be suspicious of Flamingo, for the first time.
@Kank
You're splitting hairs and really going to town with it. What I meant by "If EDH flips scum, we might have to look at Flamingo" was "I think EDH's behavior is implicating Flamingo, but I don't have a scum read on Flamingo." How will our town flip effect your opinion of Flamingo?
@Teia
How about confidently stating just ONE scum suspect?
What's up with all the "scum team" hunting without any flips? This makes no sense.
Order is very important. Flamingo will have already flipped scum the day before. In all that is scum, they are the fulcrum.
Why are you more worried about Flamingo than yourself?
I second this motion!
-Kankennon-
Almost the entirety of Kank's case against us is based on the assumption that Flamingos is scum, which is absolutely horrible logic and - considering the consisently solid analysis both Crafters have posted thus far - surprising, disappointing, and troubling. Further the case is lacking in any actual evidence, he just attacks us with rhetoric. Nor does he ask any questions to indicate he's interested in the reasoning behind our actions, he just wants to call us scum. Contrast it with gen's very reasonable, very well-thought-out case, my response to which I can't really summarize.
After rereading Flamingos, I'm more confident they are town. Brigade has a ton more content to give a thoughtful reread on, and will take more time.
Re Kank's Case:
There's a bold stance to take.
Care to provide the scumtell here?
So?
So the insinuation here is that scarbo claiming to forget about this game, and Flamingos claiming to forget about a particular player's past behavior in a particular past game that contradicts their opinion on how newb scum behaves, is evidence of collusion? If anyone else thinks this is anything but nonsense, please speak up. Or perhaps I've misinterpretted. That's a possibly since, again, you don't actually explain what's scummy here.
So because I think a player is scummy, I should automatically think someone who doesn't is scummy?
That is an outright lie. My entire second paragraph is devoted to Brigade. I referenced two posts that influenced my read. Why are you not thoroughly reading my posts? Why are you not asking me to provide more detail about the posts I claimed influence my read? Aren't you interested in whether I have good reasons to back up my reads?
A. Having a town read on someone is not defending them. Disagreeing with other people's reads is not defending. Arguing why other people's reads are wrong is defending.
B. Having weak reasons for a town read is good enough for me when the arguments supporting a scum read are weak.
Then your book should not be published. Because that's terrible logic, and very dissappointing from someone who seems to be providing a lot of solid analysis to make such a pedestrian error as linking two players of unknown alignment.
I don't consider placing a second vote on a player whom you are confident is scum "a rush". I presume Wheat has the right to change your vote if he wants, no?
SUMMARY: this case is atrocious, and I have a reeeeeeeally hard time accepting it as honest scumhunting.
Re gen's case:
Re post 86: I think you're forgetting how early in the game this was. How much content really was there for scarbo to base a "summary" for every player off of?
Re post 97: There are seven players in the game, 6 'other' players, maybe 5 if you consider Flamingos had only one brief post. There were less than 100 posts thus far. How much variety in reads were you expecting?
Re post 171: What is the fear of hammer range? I can't speak as to what was in scarbo's mind, but the small number of players in the game makes the dynamics very different. L -2 is normally claim range; obviously this can't apply and hasn't applied. L-1 on an unclaimed player is normally considered dangerous, but is there a risk of scum fast-hammering when there's only 2 of them? Probably not. But these are things we as a town have not discussed. We probably should, but it's rather unfair to hold this against us.
Re post 194: "...which when you are town should not be the primary thought process."
Your read is absolutely correct: my primary motivation is not to find scum nor to win. It is to enjoy playing this game. I retired from mafia because, due to a variety of factors, playing the game became a miserable experience instead of a fun one. I play every once in a while with the hope it will be fun, and attempting to avoid situations that make me hate playing is part of that. Further, despite the amount of effort and strong play I've put into past games, my win record is atrocious, so I don't much care about winning anymore either. It's completely up to you - all of you - if you want to believe me.
"the hand waing away of [Flamingos'] play as not having any evidence of their scummy play beyond a lack shows a lack of wanting to focus on them at all."
Yeah, I'd say that's a fair assesment. My perception was a player who has barely provided anything to go on, and so I had to make a gut call. Is there more content to their 5 posts? Yes. Was there anything more I found particularly relevant at that point? No. And since no one made much an argument against Flamingo other than repeatedly calling them lurking scum, there had been little to prod me to reconsider my gut read until Teia offered an alternative interpretation.
"Are you and scarbo not reading each others posts or interacting at all?"
I'm reading scarbo's posts but I thought I was very clear we weren't interacting. We have had absolutely zero private discussion, and I can't just shift my opinions around according to his posts.
'I find it rather odd that Kraj is on the fence about Flamingos but mentions them in other reads'
I'm aware that my point against T_A re Flamingos is arguably hypocritical, but even a throw-away read is something, no? Unless I've missed it, T_A has only described Flamingos with negative language but never given even an on-the-fence stance. Regarding EDH, my point had nothing to do with Flamingos and everything to do with only voting their suspect after someone else pointed out their lack of vote.
Re post 202: "Why attack Crafters for not laying a vote when you have them as a town read? That feels a little OMGUS in motivation."
Indeed it does, because that exactly describes my reaction. Unlike your post, which provides specifics for me to discuss and also shows evidence that you're thinking through both the town and scum explainations, Kank's post 198 lacks any evidence against us, asks a question that was already answered in the sentance following his quote, and ranks us scum using nothing but rhetoric. The only town motivation I can see in that post is if he is trying to provoke a reaction without necessarily genuinely believing we're scum, but I'm not willing to make that assumption. Instead I have to consider whether my read is wrong, which is why I asked questions in return. If it's not obvious, I find his answers to my questions troubling. I'm reluctant to conclude he's scum based on his case while I'm in the thick of it and emotional, but with so little substance and not even a hint of attempting to discern whether there are town motivations behind our actions, I have a hard time concluding otherwise.
"Why does it matter if all their suspects have only one vote each?"
The more votes on a player, the more reasonable it is to practice restraint. Fear of runaway wagons, premature claim ranges, and premature hammers are valid reasons to not vote. Indecisiveness is not.
Brigade has far too much content to give a thoughtftul reread on quickly, but I will do so within the next few days. Here is my reread of Flamingos:
88 - Proph will be main poster. Doesn't care about soft claim. Crafters and EDH are prob Town. Doesn't like TA reaction to name claim suggestion. Family/gen is annoying but town for now. Votes Tolarian Academy.
The worst offenses here are a lack of reasons and opinion on Gaymers and Brigade. It was a disappointing first post.
103 - Explains town reads and what was "off" about TA's reaction. Gives a town read on Brigade based on meta and provides examples. Makes the derpy "if we're right" comment. Still happy with vote on TA, and supplies the reason that they called Brigade scum without voting.
The reasoning provided makes up for the lack in their prior post. Noteably, Gaymers, EDH, and TA all had recently expressed suspicion of Brigade, but Flamingo chose not to hop on that wagon and called her town. The reason for their vote on TA is valid and, interestingly, Polski immediately votes Brigade and passes the buck for not voting to H_H, who doesn't address it at all.
130 - EDHs posts read genuine. Thinks TA's 'inside knowledge' reaction is panic. Said pointing out TA's lack of vote on Brigade was not an attempt to "goad". Explains his PoE approach.
Other than the PoE logic being...just awful, everything else here is fine. And my disagreeing with a playstyle does not make it scummy.
162 - Reiterates belief that newb scum are usually exibiting newb scum tells. Says he thinks TA is scum. Says townhunting and PoE is more effective than scumhunting in smaller games, based on prior experience. Explains town read on EDH with specfific examples. Says he has trouble reading Gen but notes his PBPAing is not the norm. Reiterates PoE logic.
Others have pointed out the repetition of townieness in this post, which is a good point. Initially I thought calling TA scum was contrary to his 'townhunting' logic that TA was merely scum due to PoE, but now I see he actually had active reasons for finding him scummy.
163 - Finds it strange that gen would vote Flamingos but then vote EDH after EDH votes Flamingos.
This is a fair question, and poking at gen is consistent with their statement of having a difficult time reading him.
After this reread I feel much more confident Flamingos is town. I see consistent stances, all supported by valid reasoning, and a pointed lack of following the crowd. Despite the low activity level, the content quality is high. The worst offense I see is a lack of analysis on Gaymers, the only scum-by-PoE they haven't given any active opinion on. And perhaps they should be providing more solid evidence to support their town reads if that's their focus.
-Kraj
Was out all day, posting tomorrow morning.
-p
Oh Kraj, you beautiful man you!
Did Swishh..I mean...scarbo not warn you about me?
I am a master of semantics!
Not everything is a scumtell, that was setting the base for #97, the future, and what was then said about Flamingo. The irony here is, "Care to provide the scumtell here?" is an intrinsically scummy way to ask that question.
This is in regards to: "Parse that out: troubling, troubling, bad taste, understandable (!?), suspicious
One of these things is not like the other."
This is awareness of Flamingo and them being off, yet has an inexplicable excuse for them doing so stuck in the middle.
Now this is pure gold right here. What I meant as mere sarcasm elicited a panicky response and overreaction from Gaymers. This is not a town reaction. This is a scum reaction, mortified that I read premeditated collusion between scumbuddies through something the Gaymers could not have known that Flamingo would say right after them. Of course you had no clue they would say that, but your overreaction here just gave you away. I threw a small rock into the pond and you reacted to it like it was a grenade. Absolutely priceless.
My point there was that your explanation as to why Flamingo was town to you was weak and tepid.
By all means, explain away!
Of course you mentioned Brigade in paragraph two, my qualm is that after that point, between Flamingo's "meta defense of Teia" and "As the popularity of the Brigade wagon wanes" your mentions of EDH and TA are sorely lacking any comparing and contrasting with Brigade (who supposedly ranks just above them) yet there is plenty PLENTY of mention of Flamingo, especially this gem: "In post 120 HH explains that they think EDH is town because of trying to solve the game in a single post. That's exactly what Flamingos did 17 posts earlier, but went unnoticed by TA."
Gaymers wanted to specifically point out that TA was giving a town read to EDH for something Flamingo also did but wasn't given the same treatment. That's not the mentality of a town player defending another player they think is town. That's the mentality of a scum player trying to protect their teammate.
Wheat has seen first hand what I am capable of. Why so scared? Afraid I'll vote for you or Flamingo?
And this line is a beauty. Uber-scummy forced overreaction and completely unbelievable. These are not the words of a town player.
Game, set, and match.
CCMVIII's scum team is Flamingo and Gaymers.
I'm happy to vote for either.
Is there anything anyone wants to accomplish before this day is over? Now is the time to say your peace.
-Kankennon-
Ah, because analyzing 15 posts is so much work, right?
I'll be waiting!
-Kankennon-
~Human
How did we OMGUS you?
Other than leaving you on my PoE list I don't recall ever attacking you.
I think EDH is probably town, as detailed in my last post.
Alright, what's the scum mindset in one hydra-buddy yelling at the other in the thread, as opposed to saying something in the QT like "you messed up"?
In my experience, scum hydras are *much* harder to play as as opposed to town hydras. You have to fake all the "conversing" about reads and all that stuff that town hydras do naturally.
Did you read my post?
I noted down some things that were making me nervous about EDH, but I'm willing to overlook classical tells (self-awareness) in favor of mindset-orientated analysis (those genuine town posts by Human) every time.
I'm scumhunting, but putting a fair amount more effort in townhunting because it's /easier/.
I'm solving the game.
This method of townhunting is very difficult for scum to defend themselves against.
I would re-evaluate my earlier town reads, and look at the manner players were attacking that town player.
I repeat that I'm town in every game I play, regardless of alignment.
You're my most solid townread.
I think it goes Brigade > EDH > Crafters? Bit paranoid of Kank just taking control of the game.
Can you please rephrase this? I don't understand your question.
"This feels"? Wouldn't you be more excited in finding a scumslip from the person you're pushing?
(I don't think that's a slip)
How is it awful? I think it's sound.
----
I'm appalled that the TTA wagon isn't getting steam. HH's #175 is just all summary and no analysis, and his #218 at the end there is blatant self-consciousness.
~p
Brigade asked me to deliver the analysis of TTA post #174 and this is it.
I'll start here,this response is something I would suspect from H_H at this point of the game. He has made it clear that he's learning to analyze players this game as he plays. This is consistent with his focus on Brigade, when one is learning it is easiest to focus on one target. It's even more clear in his next statement.
"You're right I haven't analyzed many players. I have made moves to hunt scum, and it wouldn't spoil anything to tell you about them. Back when I called Crafters posts 'anomalies', I was thinking about how his approach has been just these questions, and wondering if it was a strategy to hide in plain sight, stirring the pot without actually needing to give the game direction. I figured I could set that word out there and see if he overcompensates his image. It didn't end up producing any apparent scummy behaviour.
I tried doing a PBPA (of Crafters) and was sure I wasn't doing it right, so I kept it to myself. I mean, as I said, I couldn't come up with anything other than a redescription of the facts, plus scant subjective and conditional reasoning. I do have a few things that look to be worth saying though, so I'll put them right after this post."
Here TTA shows that he makes an active attempt to hunt others he suspects could be scum but is frustrated because he can't make heads nor tails of the evidence. What I'm reading here is a frustrated town that is trying to be helpful but became overzealous in his attempt to find scum.
Rereading the rest of the post and the current contributions from TTA have pushed me to think they are town. TTA and specifically H_H then decided to focus Gaymers (a suggestion from crafters). This makes sense for H_H's playstyle so far. He now finds his original read wrong and moves onto his next scumread until proven wrong.
I'm going to stop the TTA read here because I have more important things to say before end of day 1.
While reading through TTA's posts something he said unnerves me. In reference to a post by Crafters about Teia being ok for now because they are posting content and if they continue they will catch her eventually.
TTA's rebuttal was that Crafters "And when asked about it, he said something about fishing and that he doesn't know anything about fishing. Point?"
This was dodgy and when I later brought it up:
EDH post193: "Human chiming in.
Crafters, Wheat(I believe) earlier in the game said that if Teia were scum they would indeed catch her because she is putting things out there to be analyzed. By this logic shouldn't Gaymers or flamingos be your top read and where your vote lies at the moment? I don't know if any hydra has responded more than us at this point, but I can assure you we have more info than them. I have a dentist appointment, I'll post some useful analysis when I return.
~Human"
Crafters: @EDH (Human): You have more posts than Flamingo and Gaymers combined. What I would like to see is more independent thinking on your part. I don't want an echo chamber. I want to hear your own voice in this. I want to see you take a close look at what other clans have done and are doing and ask new questions or point out things you feel others may have missed. If you want leads, I would take a close look at Flamingo and Gaymers and see if something stands out as odd to you about their behavior. What are they saying about each other? What have they flip-flopped on or done that seems out of place to you? Find your own voice. I want to hear it. If you are town, then stand up and sing dammit!
They dodge the question about where their vote lies and try to motivate me to find my own voice, while at the same time leading me to look at Gaymers and flamingo.. and away from themselves. Crafters up until this point has had a strong leadership of town and has been directing the town towards his reads. This amount of influence disturbs me.
They then chalk up their vote change to giving us a second chance just like they did brigade and TTA. Why did they give us a second chance, I read this as "if I decided you would be lynched." To be able to give redemption one has to be in a seat of power. Without power redemption means nothing, where does this power Crafters have come from?
I'm also interested in TTA's PBPA of Crafters, he's the only one (other than a comment I made earlier in the game) that has even considered the idea that Crafters could be scum. In a game like this logic is king, but he mentions that he can't get over the feeling that he should do the PBPA, he just doesn't know why he has that feeling.
In my experience people don't just feel things, there's usually a reason they had the urge. He also must have had a strong urge because he went ahead and attempted the PBPA.
In reference to the vote on gaymers: The vote came from TTA shortly after being directed there by Crafters. Crafters claims he wants us to think for ourselves and make our own decisions but then he directs us towards his reads. Instead of making our own decisions he's letting us believe we're making the decision, but the decision is one that benefits him.
This manipulation is something I've been wary of for a few pages and I thought I should make it clear so TTA will make sure they are making the decision they want and not what they're being directed towards.
GAYMERS:
Gaymers have been posting more content lately to analyze.
I've already brought up my argument about how ludicrous gaymer's statement on bur's opinions about flamingo. They were out of order and flamingo had posted in between the posts. That entire analysis of brigade was akin to garbage and I'm not afraid to say it.
People have been bringing up the statement about how H_H changed their vote when the "Brigade wagon waned in popularity."
This made me look back at Crafter's questioning of TTA and wanting them to label their points against each other. At first I thought that this was a good idea but after reading back I noticed that it essentially vilified Brigade. TTA had been evasive of the idea and after they agreed that brigade was no longer scummy Crafters never pressured as to why they were apprehensive. He seemed content that Brigade was safe. Brigade had answered him instantly fortifying his town status, however, it's as though crafters expected TTA not to answer. This enabled Brigade to look less scummy and made TTA appear scummy and elusive.
However, crafters doesn't follow up with questioning, instead he pushes TTA to look at gaymers and Flamingos.
Looking back the argument doesn't look like scum hunting at all, instead it looks like a defense of a scum partner(brigade).
Gaymers then has a point when he points out that Crafters entire argument is based on flamingo being scum. I don't read gaymer's post as a scum post, I read it as a frustrated and attacked town trying to respond.
Crafter's laughs off the post and says they are confident in voting for the two, however I am not as certain.
UNVOTE
I'm really glad Crafters told me to think for myself and look back, thanks to that they've moved up into my top 3 scum. Not because they are inherently scummy, they are good players, that's why they wouldn't make the scum mistakes a novice would make. They are, however, directing the action right now in ways that don't feel town at all. The point-by-point discussion looks scummier than ever reading back on it.
I want your opinion TTA since you were the first to suggest that he artificial set up of the point by point argument would be exactly what the scum wanted.
PS. Just a note I realized while thinking back, TTA did unvote abruptly at the pressure of Crafters and crafters didn't question it at all unlike other players.
~Human
~Human
I didn't mean to imply that you thought it was scummy, reading back I find it scummy.
~Human
~Human
Because you could pick a rock from the street and it would probably be better at analysing this game compared to me. I SUCK at cold reads and therefore have left that for Human. I prefer to play it via other ways (reading emotions and reactions, gestures and things like that, which I can't use in internet-mafia).
Anyways, while Human already said quite much, I think there is this one thing that he missed (that also raised my suspicions):
This seems like really OoC-moment for Crafters, considering their playstyle. They've been activelly questioning us, taking things slowly with no rush and prefering to know everything there is to know (aka. questioning everything and not jumping the gun).
Then suddenly they do 180, declares thaat the game is over since he figured out the mafia and tells us to vote them off...
~Bur