Crafters: Most notably the strongest town player in the game currently. Wheat asks the questions people want answers to and is confident in his answers. I do want to ask the reason for your phrasing when refering to brigade "If truly scum" you will catch them. If you have an inkling that they are possibly scum why not say it? You say you will know sooner or later because they post often, however, if they're good scum couldn't they be participating as a ruse?
I have an inkling, yes, which I already mentioned. There's more than one scum to pick at, and therefore I prioritize the ones with less content. The ones with more content have more to be analyzed later.
Same concept of letting a fish continue to swim around a bit while fishing. Well, I think. I haven't ever fished before, but I assume it's like mafia. Call the fish scum and they get lynched right into your boat, that's the way it works, right?
While being blatantly aggressive, I have to wonder if scum would be so open about their colors. The tells are there, but if he were scum would he make it so obvious so early? I don't think so. I think it's possible he is indeed an irate player that had his hand forced into a game and is a bit salty about it. However, I don't find it scummy, to be forced into a situation and then left alone to defend yourself is a hard position to be in. Sure he's being loud and letting off a lot of noise but I find it justified. Not particularly pleasant, however, I don't find it scummy in the least.
Looking at it from the perspective of "would scum act this way?" only opens you up to WIFOM. Instead, I'm looking at it from the perspective of "would town act this way?" Or, more precisely, how acting that way helps find and catch scum. From what I saw, his outbursts weren't helping the town, so I latched on to those. But he hadn't explained that his real-life issues were having such an effect on him by that point, and in light of that it's less scummy and more just letting his circumstances drive him towards bad play. His answer to my question of how his play helps the town (that it doesn't and he'll work on controlling any future outbursts) satisfies me that it's less likely he's scum and more likely he inadvertently sent off scummy signals.
You then question what gen's emotional state is, then you admit you know why he's getting like that. Come on, what were you really prodding him for? Family is your scummiest read? Apparently lurking and weaselling are a-okay by you. You think you look like you're paying attention but your post 61 is as void as gen's post 58. What's the actual reason you addressed him?
What? I asked him some questions in 55, he talked about RL issues being the cause for his emotional state in 58, and I responded in 61 based on that new information. How are either of them "void," exactly? I didn't know why he was posting like he was or what he was trying to accomplish, he posted some more detail about those things, and I took that new information into consideration.
Don't think I didn't notice you quoted me asking you a question only to turn things around and get aggressive on me. You don't even commit to calling me scum. You just accuse me of barning and proceed to have at me. Hoping people will ignore you and go after me without having to commit to a strong position yourself, perhaps?
Anyways, I'd still ask you: Who do you think is the LEAST scummy person around here.
I'm wondering where the town mindset is in this. I guess it could be from the perspective of not wanting to go after someone if they're considered town, but why would you want to do that? This isn't a game of "don't lynch town." It's a game of "lynch scum." How is identifying townie players going to help us identify scum, exactly? Finding not-scum doesn't do the town nearly as much good as finding scum, after all.
The other thing that struck me as odd was that Bur claimed that he thought the idea was to softclaim roles, but Human clearly hadn't misread that post as of 33. So are the two of them even coordinating? I can't imagine that each player going off with contradictory arguments is helpful, especially when they're supporting reads. The first point in his post reads like a clumsy backpedal, anyway.
So yeah, Academy's still scummy and EDH isn't looking much if any better.
Gaymers and Flamingo need to post more because they've lurked through so much it hurts.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
I'm wondering where the town mindset is in this. I guess it could be from the perspective of not wanting to go after someone if they're considered town, but why would you want to do that? This isn't a game of "don't lynch town." It's a game of "lynch scum." How is identifying townie players going to help us identify scum, exactly? Finding not-scum doesn't do the town nearly as much good as finding scum, after all.
The other thing that struck me as odd was that Bur claimed that he thought the idea was to softclaim roles, but Human clearly hadn't misread that post as of 33. So are the two of them even coordinating? I can't imagine that each player going off with contradictory arguments is helpful, especially when they're supporting reads. The first point in his post reads like a clumsy backpedal, anyway.
1) Gosh. I'll tell everything properly, after you have answered me. There's no point in this one, if I first tell what I want you to answer. Let's just say that thanks to Crafters answering this, it confirmed my thoughts regarding them, for good and bad.
2) I thought it was painfully obvious that our coordination isn't working really well.
The Family
Generic is rage-posting. What's new? Nothing reads as though he doesn't believe what he's saying, which is a good town indicator. One question though: How was Brigade defending Academy when Academy was listed as Brigade's second scum read in the post you quoted?
The Crafters
The suggestion for soft-claiming is innocuous. If anything it's a town indicator as scum would be preemptively wary of how it would be taken. I like the vote on Brigade, and I agree with Wheat's posts against EDH.
Clan Flamingo
Post please.
MTGS Brigade
Post 55: If Family was your biggest scum read, why was there no vote to back it up? You have more issue with EDH than Academy, yet the latter takes the spot for your second scum read.
Post 79: What happened to your scum read on The Family? Now EDH and Academy are you top scum reads?
Spirit of EDH
50: You've not 'made up your mind' on Brigade, yet that's where your vote lies.
68: Why is a propensity for 'jumping on bandwagons' indicative of town? Also...there have been no bandwagons yet. In your read on Family, you say something odd:
The Family: Seems like an usual case of aggresive-mafia -playstyle. However, if he really is as experienced as you claim, I doubt he'd pull that playstyle so poorly. Besides, he apparently has RL-issues, so...
Who is 'you?'
Why do you want to know everyone's strongest town read? Sounds like crowdsourcing reads.
75: Human's epic fence sit on Brigade is golden, "I'm not going to call scum yet..."
The Tolarian Academy
Pressure on EDH and Brigade is cool. Polski (in particular) - what do you think about Family?
1) Gosh. I'll tell everything properly, after you have answered me. There's no point in this one, if I first tell what I want you to answer. Let's just say that thanks to Crafters answering this, it confirmed my thoughts regarding them, for good and bad.
2) I thought it was painfully obvious that our coordination isn't working really well.
~Bur
I don't recall asking you what it is you wanted as far as answers go. I asked you why you asked that question.
How is a lack of coordination between you two going to help in catching scum, exactly? Compare your answer here to Gen's answer when I pressured him. His response was, in essence, "Yeah, I guess it's not helping. I'll work on that." Your response is just, "Yeah, I guess it's not helping." There's a lack of a follow-through here. Is it something you're working on, or do you intend to ride the game out like this?
MTGS Brigade
Post 55: If Family was your biggest scum read, why was there no vote to back it up? You have more issue with EDH than Academy, yet the latter takes the spot for your second scum read.
Post 79: What happened to your scum read on The Family? Now EDH and Academy are you top scum reads?
I didn't vote for the Family because I wanted Gen's answer first. He answered in a way that felt townie to me (as detailed in post 79), so I updated my read accordingly. Academy remains a scum read from my initial assessment owing to the fact that his behaviour (especially being asked for commitment to a read, only to commit to an observation and attempt at deflecting focus back onto me when he hadn't yet answered my questions), and the reason EDH moved up to the other slot is because their behaviour doesn't seem particularly pro-town when you consider what they're actually doing. They're focused on seeing who the least scummy people are when that behaviour advances the scum gameplan (figure out who not to target, see if either scum is safe) much better than the town gameplan (because we want to identify scum, not town). Their lack of coordination between them is also a red flag because it indicates that each EDH poster is operating under a different set of assumptions, interpretations, and therefore reads—very dangerous when both are using the same hydra as a mouthpiece (and should thus ostensibly be better coordinated in their scumhunting).
Also there isn't really anything to the order I listed them in.
We don't really care if we soft claim our names or not.
How is this still relevant?
Also, what's the reasoning behind your reads? What was off enough about Academy's reaction that you're voting them because of it? Is there anything else about him that contributes to this read and subsequent vote, or is it just that reaction?
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
My defense of family is simply my read on the matter, I'm not attempting to tell you how to play. I am giving you the logic behind my decision that his actions weren't particularly scummy to me. Do you disagree with my assumptions? Are there any reasons why you do that would help me get a better read on family at the moment? If so I want to hear them so I can better play this game.
Is this or is this not you telling other players how to play the game?:
We are only on page three so while there has been a little bit of discourse it is still hard to pinpoint who falls where in the scum/town spectrum. I would argue that at the moment it is justifiable to have to rely on a bit of your gut, at least until there have been more posts.
Do I disagree with your assumptions? You mean gen's "being blatantly aggressive"? Sure, I'll agree. Would scum be open about their colors? Wine In Front Of Me reasoning. Is it possible he is an irate player? Of course it's possible. Is it scummy to be left alone to defend yourself? If you start with the assumption he is stuck on his own just like he says, then yeah , him saying he is stuck on his own would be a truthful statement. What I'm not seeing is an argument to link the emotion to the alignment.
Now you're missing what I'm asking you. Why were you defending him, there?
Crafters: Most notably the strongest town player in the game currently. Wheat asks the questions people want answers to and is confident in his answers.
Which answers would those be? The ones you call "his answers".
~H_H
I'll be blunt. No, I am not telling others how to play the game. I'm giving others some insight as to how I'm playing the game so that they can form their opinions about me from an enlightened point of view.
I stated earlier in the thread that I was learning that this game it is more important that I as a town actively and aggressively seek the scum. My natural inclination was to try to determine who is town and move from there. I'm learning that it is more beneficial for town to seek the scum and remove them than to determine who is town and try to then vote off the scum. I think that they would both lead to the same conclusion but there are more town than scum so it will be faster and more efficient to find the scum. In the future I will seek information that can be helpful in determining who is scum rather than who is town.
The link that I created between the alignment and the emotion is that Brigade determined that it was scummy of him. I on the other hand think that his actions were warranted if the situation was indeed accurate. Maybe I should say that his emotion isn't "town-like" but it doesn't feel scummy to me. However, I now realize that this information is useless since we can't verify his claims.
To answer your question as to why I was defending him because I had a warped perception of the role of town. I defended his reasoning for the anger, but I am not defending him as a town. As I see it everything after that post that family has posted hasn't progressed this game at all.
Knowing this I want to hear his reads, he hasn't contributed since before everyone started revealing their reads. I also would like to ask him to give some specific reasons as to why he's reading what he is.
As for my comment on crafters, they have been putting the pressure on everyone. They have actively sought scum since the get go. He wants to know why people are saying what they are and he makes his stance clear.
That should answer your questions H_H if it doesn't feel free to continue to ask me things and I will reply. I'll stop here because I want to talk to bur before posting anything else and his time zone is drastically different than mine.
I have a doctors appointment with a lung specialist tomorrow and it's a 6 hour drive, I won't be back until thursday, just a heads up.
Why do you want to know everyone's strongest town read? Sounds like crowdsourcing reads.
I don't know what crowdsourcing is, but is sounds like some marketing trick. And, I'll get to the point at the end of this post.
"Interesting"
By interesting, I mean it piqued my interest. Like I have already said, I misunderstood "softclaim roles" and "softclaim names". That's why I was really wondering what on bloody earth is Crafters thinking.
And then for... everything.
First of all, here is my current list of thoughts regarding you:
Town:
Crafters - they are focusing on finding the mafia and is leading the game and discussion. There's not a thing that has (besides that one misunderstanding) really turned on my mafia-radar. They've been asking questions en masse, they started accusing us for good reasons yet they haven't come across to me as someone who are really hell-bent on a single target (aka us).
Family - Thanks to Crafters (and Flamingo), I am now pretty sure Family is not mafia, unlike I thought. You guys both have been playing with him and told that this is not unusual to him even as a town, so I'll give him a pass. Also, since Crafters listed them as their most trusted player, I'll take your word regarding him.
Neutral:
Tolaria Academy - To be honest, I haven't been paying much attention to you guys. I've been more focused on Family, Crafters and lately Brigade. Without delving too deeply into you or your posts, you haven't triggered off my mafia-radar.
Flamingo - While he hasn't really contributed much, I can't say much regarding him. However, since he did not jump "EDH is mafia" bandwagon and apparently trusts us, it made me doubt that he'd be mafia. If mafia, I would've expected him to vote us, since we've been giving strong mafia-vibes. He wouldn't have needed to state much reasons since the way I understood it, it's "self-explanatory". Whether or not I had been his mafia-mate (can I say that?), it would've been logical to vote us if he was.
Gaymers - While at first, their accusations towards us come across to me more of an attack (and by "attack", I mean "let's kill them") than pressuring and fishing for information, it might have something to do with that I keep comparing you to Crafters. However, lately your accusation has turned more into a mild interest regarding us and fishing for information, so I'm not putting you into mafia at this poins.
Mafia:
MTGBrigade - Their accusations has come across to me quite aggressive and while they haven't clearly stated their opinion like others (there's bit here and bit there, but it's always hidden in the wall of text) and even refusing to give them out even when I asked. And they've been attacking "popular" choices for mafia, like Family (okay, that might stretching it a bit) and us. However, her attempt to accuse Academy has come across to me more of an poor attempt to hide her mafia-mate than an actually accusation.
Also, I recall Academy said they had some questions. Please, ask what you want and I'll answer. I know you had something, but I forgot what and it seems to be lost in the long posts.
Oh, and since everyone was really interested curious why I asked that, it was simple. I wanted to know who do you trust and regarding who are you staying on fence. After hearing you, I'm assured (like I stated in my previous post) that Family is not mafia and if Brigade is mafia, Gaymers is not their pal. Academy might be (they don't seem suspicious. It's Brigade who makes them suspicious).
My only jab of consern is that my evaluation is totally wrong and Crafters is mafia after all (and if you are, I salute you for being really good at it), but in that case I'd say Family is their partner-in-crime. Crafters steping in, defending Family and stating they trust them the most sound a bit like them being in the same team, but since at this point, we can't be sure about anyone else's alignment. Only exception to this is mafia, who (supposedly, unless these guys have some really weird rules) know each other.
I'm still in the middle of analysing it all, but these are my primary conclusions.
Crafters - I think Wheat is the only one to post thus far, but I keep agreeing with him and haven't seen anything yet to ping my scumdar. Town.
Family - raging aside, gen's posts feel genuine. The actual content (stances, votes, answers to questions) have been reasonable. Gen's reaction to TA/Polski's post 48 is the same as how I reacted (see below). My only concern at this point is too much noise and not enough signal. Town.
EDH - Bur's post 50 is so bad it actually makes me think he's town. It's literally a list of scumtells so blatant that I can't help but feel like anyone actually trying not to appear as scum couldn't possibly make this post. Human's 67, interestingly, makes the same argument in regards to gen. Human's 75 could logically be both townie or scum, but my gut says he's genuinely looking for cracks in a possible facade; at this point in the game I'd expect mafia to just name Wheat as town and be done with it. Leaning town.
UNVOTE
Flamingo - Lack of posting is troubling, lack of content when finally posted is troubling. While not completely terrible, post 88 just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. To be fair, though, there's a lot of content to digest so a light first post is understandable. Too early to call, but absolutely suspicious.
TA - I've found H_H's posts to be pretty reasonable and townish-looking. Polski, however, is pinging my scumdar. Post 48 strongly feels like waiting to see which way the wind blows. Post 89 is a troubling, half-hearted backpedal on Family/gen. Leaning scum primarily due to Polski, and also my knowing H_H is good enough to not be easily caught.
Brigade - Vote: Brigade Teia is scummier than my shower. (who wants pics?)
Post 34 - Doesn't take a stance, barns Academy/H_H, classic "honestly" tell, and subtle first dose of the scummy "is that helpful?" argument. Post 55 - I hate this post so hard. The push at gen is awfully strong and reads a lot more like she's pushing him to meltdown rather than genuinely trying to get a read on him. Calling him out on defensiveness without considering the motivation behind it. And again with the "I won't say his behavior is scummy, but it's not HELPFUL to scumhunting", which is a classic scum argument. I've never seen a scum lynched beacuse of being "unhelpful". NEVER. Post 61 - Again with the "how does this help the town" argument. Since gen had just posted his rage in #60, again I feel like this response is intended to provoke a further meltdown rather than get a genuine read. Post 79 - This is the post that sealed the deal. EDH's Human doesn't think a scum gen would be so brazen about it. Teia steps in to convince him otherwise, with the "is this helpful?" argument yet again. But then backs off in a "hey, I wasn't wrong. See how scummy he acted? But yeah, I can see how he might not be scum" fashion. And the rest of the post is a whole lot of throwing minor suspicion around to see what sticks.
Questioning you right after answering your question is simply the result of the fact you are the only person to have asked me a question. I took care of that, and proceeded with grilling you all at once.
I asked for reads you could commit to. The only thing you "took care of" before grilling me was to say, "Your barnacle to start things off is one of my thoughts, I can tell you that. As to my opinions, opinions were hard to come by before recently." Now, that's a non-answer, given that I asked if there were any reads (not opinions, not observations, but reads) you could commit to. If there was a specific post of yours that contained the information, referencing it might have worked. But this vague brush-off of yours doesn't count as "[taking] care of" anything. You brushed off actually answering the question I asked, and you just keep insisting your version of events is accurate despite that it's clearly not.
RL issues are nothing to do with the game. Gen stating them is a cop-out. You offering your sympathies is the morally right thing to do, but also a meaningless post as far as the game is concerned. Hence, "void".
Anything that informs his in-game actions is relevant. Just because something occurs outside the game doesn't mean it can't affect anything within it.
You've only made arguments about scum already outlined by another player (specifically, the Academy, i.e. Polski and me). The only reason I'm not about to vote you right now is your calling Spirit of EDH on the cost to Town in not co-ordinating their hydra.
These two points seem contradictory. I've made no original arguments, but the reason you're not voting me is because I made an original argument?
The link that I created between the alignment and the emotion is that Brigade determined that it was scummy of him. I on the other hand think that his actions were warranted if the situation was indeed accurate.
I don't like this subtle bit of doubt. "If the situation was indeed accurate." Sure, anyone could lie about anything, but casting doubt on his story is like saying that someone's only claiming to be V/LA as an excuse to lurk. Sure, it's possible, but it's a WIFOM argument at best.
Post 55 - I hate this post so hard. The push at gen is awfully strong and reads a lot more like she's pushing him to meltdown rather than genuinely trying to get a read on him. Calling him out on defensiveness without considering the motivation behind it. And again with the "I won't say his behavior is scummy, but it's not HELPFUL to scumhunting", which is a classic scum argument. I've never seen a scum lynched beacuse of being "unhelpful". NEVER.
Saying he was one of my scum suspects is somehow avoiding saying his behavior is scummy? You're also stretching pretty far with the whole "it's not HELPFUL to scumhunting" thing. My arguments (both in that post and others) haven't been about helpfulness so much as mindset. Helpfulness is just one of many means to an end (just as talking about how a person's behavior affects each faction's gameplan is a means to an end). There's nothing wrong with trying to find town or scum motivation in someone's behaviour—it's all a part of scumhunting, after all. Don't square-peg-round-hole my arguments.
Now, I know it was Scarbo and not Kraj asking, but did you consider post 91 in your assessment? If so, why not include it, especially since it answered questions posed by your hydra? If not, why not, when it's germane to your hydra's accusations against me?
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
The Tolarian Academy [1]: Clan Flamingo (88)
[Spirit of EDH] [1]: [The Crafters] (63)
Clan Flamingo [1]: The Family (96)
MTGS Brigade [1]: Gaymers (97)
Not voting [3]: The Tolarian Academy (40), [Spirit of EDH] (44), MTGS Brigade (55)
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
"Humans who dare to play God must pay a steep price for their arrogance."
Please inform me when you see any votecount errors.
Another tip for those who have trouble posting from the correct account: make sure the color schemes for both accounts are different so that you easily notice when you're on the wrong one.
The reason only I have been posting for Crafters is because we decided to do it that way from the start; Kank's really good at analysis (even better than I am; he's a natural at mafia) but I'm better at getting people to post analyzable things to begin with; therefore it made more sense for me to be the sole poster. We also have PikachuGundam and Kahedron offering opinions in the QT, if you're wondering about our numbers.
I'm a bit busy until Sunday and Kank's got a good lead so he'll be posting for at least the next few days for sure if not for the rest of the game.
@EDH: You say you haven't been paying much attention to Tolarian Academy (in #94), yet you say that Brigade makes them suspicious (in #95). Why is that? Have you gone back and paid attention to them since that was posted? (If not, go ahead--I'll wait.) Okay, what is your opinion of them now that you have?
I like how The Crafters are driving discussion and asking good questions, like 41 and 51. I don't think he's right regarding SoE and The Family, though - having Generic as the strongest town read off page 3 makes me wary.
For SoE, high effort newbies tend to be town - newb scum usually prefer just.. hiding, in my experience.
@Tolarian:
Quote from TAA »
Explain, in great detail, how that is a good idea.
This reaction reeks of having inside knowledge.
We have a town read on Brigade because Teia's been extremely transparent about her scumhunting processes, and she's radically different in her scum game. If Teia's posts make you want to smack somebody, she's town.
Examples:
Quote from Teia »
Looking at it from the perspective of "would scum act this way?" only opens you up to WIFOM. Instead, I'm looking at it from the perspective of "would town act this way?" Or, more precisely, how acting that way helps find and catch scum. From what I saw, his outbursts weren't helping the town, so I latched on to those. But he hadn't explained that his real-life issues were having such an effect on him by that point, and in light of that it's less scummy and more just letting his circumstances drive him towards bad play. His answer to my question of how his play helps the town (that it doesn't and he'll work on controlling any future outbursts) satisfies me that it's less likely he's scum and more likely he inadvertently sent off scummy signals.
Quote from Teia »
Anyway, Family has been largely defensive and aggressive. He's whining about being "miserable as **** and ready to take on you lot," telling people "never to bull***** a bull*****ter," etc. That signal to noise ratio is impressively high. I still don't know what his reads really are. He's there, he's taking up space, but he's not really doing anything useful. In fact, Gen, what exactly was it you intended to accomplish with that little rant post of yours? Were you trying to fish for sympathy? Were you hoping people would take you at face value? I just don't get it.
The Family
TAA
Gaymers
If our reads are correct, two out of three scum are in that pile. Game is solved.
We don't have a read on Gaymers yet.
Still happy with our vote on TAA - they call Brigade scum but they don't vote her, and I don't understand why they aren't.
@Flamingo: I'm reading town on Generic/Family. That meltdown of his reeked of frustrated town!Generic (which I have personally been the brunt of before). Why have you written off EDH as town though? Simply because they've put effort into the game thus far?
@Crafters:
Like I said in the previous page, my currently strongest mafia-read comes from Brigade. However, I can't say anything regarding Human. That's also the reason why we haven't voted for anyone for last... quite a few pages. I'm discussing the matter him Human, but since he hasn't answered yet, no vote from us yet.
And why Tolarian Academy, you asked? While it's true I haven't paid that much attention to them (compared to you fo Family), the reason why Brigade makes them a tad suspicious is their attitude towards them. They haven't voted for them, despite being their most suspected person for mafia (besides us). I would've understood that if they'd voted for someone else (like us), but no. Also, while they seem to be yelling that TA is suspicious, there's the one instance (#91) where suddenly Brigade seems defensive of TA, when someone else doubts them too...
Overall, it just feels slightly like an attempt to hide her partner-in-crime. For now, I'm wary and keeping eye on them.
@Flamingo: Why (in #103) do you have a town read on Brigade and then essentially goad TA into voting for them at the end of your post (which they did in #106)?
@Family: What is the Flamingo OMGUS you mentioned in #108?
The Tolarian Academy [1]: Clan Flamingo (88)
[Spirit of EDH] [1]: [The Crafters] (63)
Clan Flamingo [1]: The Family (96) MTGS Brigade [2]: Gaymers (97), The Tolarian Academy (106)
Not voting [2]: [Spirit of EDH] (44), MTGS Brigade (55)
@Family: I wouldn't call that an OMGUS, more like a woefully underwhelming and unsubstantiated POE. Considering they only have, really two posts this whole game, Flamingo needs to actually start playing this game.
For the three clans that aren't currently voting (TA, EDH, Brigade), who are your top scumspects and why?
-Kankennon-
Academy and EDH. Neither seems to be approaching this game from a really townie mindset. Academy's overzealousness seems forced to me, what with how they casually misrepresent prior interactions (see also 98 where I harp on them again for completely dodging a question only to aggro on me). Oh yeah, and they cleared EDH without any supplemental reasoning being presented. They ask a lot of questions but don't seem to provide much content of their own. It kind of falls between active lurking and trying to figure out which wagons are safe to push. All around scummy.
EDH tried that "who does everyone think is most townie?" thing, and the disorganized feel of their members makes me wonder just what their priorities actually are. It's not quite as strong a read as with Academy, but things like him casting subtle doubt on Gen's explanation leave me with little niggling doubts that I can't ignore.
Also, while they seem to be yelling that TA is suspicious, there's the one instance (#91) where suddenly Brigade seems defensive of TA, when someone else doubts them too...
That's not being defensive of Academy. That's trying to get more information from Flamingo. I'd have asked those same questions no matter who they voted for.
Brigade has been our most solid scum read for some time now, and the only reason we weren't voting was because we wanted to check out EDH a bit, and Teia had called out EDH on their lack of coordination, which was something we had to take into consideration. However, we've come to the conclusion that EDH is most probably town, and with no conflict left in our reads, I'm taking the initiative.
How, exactly, did you come to that conclusion? You're so overzealous on pushing to lynch me that you're completely forgetting everything else. It's a recurring problem, actually. You'll ignore answering questions in favour of brushing people off and attacking me (e.g. 74 where you don't answer what your reads are, 106 where you don't list another suspect despite Crafters asking for multiple). You ask a lot of questions, but don't seem as interested in supplying your own analysis. 48 and 92 are the only posts of yours I see with substantial original reasoning behind them, and 48 was wishy-washy while 92 was fairly scant (accusing me of opportunism, along with that contradictory "you don't supply original arguments but I'm not voting you because of an original argument of yours"). Now you push me so hard you forgot to explain how you got from point A to point B, how EDH is now town in your eyes. It's like lynching me is your first priority, and minor little things like explaining your reasoning (and thus showing you're bothering to scumhunt rather than just pick targets) take a backseat to that. You know which faction doesn't need to scumhunt in order to push for a lynch? The scum.
Vote Tolarian Academy
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
In my head, I was telling what my reads were. Looking back I can see as how that didn't come through. What's the difference between opinion and read? You're really going to stand on that?
Yes, I'm going to stand on that. When someone asks what your reads are, they're asking you who you think is town and who you think is scum. And, implicitly, the reasons for those reads. An observation like "this person barns stuff" isn't a read. It's just that: an observation. You're not reading into someone's actions to determine their alignment when you say "this person barns stuff." This whole thing of yours reads like a wishy-washy backpedal because someone's not letting your actions slide. "What are your reads?" followed by you dodging the question and aggroing on me, then claims of you having actually answered the question, and you're only now saying "oh well I guess there was a misunderstanding."
And reads, plural, when 74 was just you asserting I barned stuff and asking people questions? How does your post convey your reads in your head, anyway?
I did not call what you did an 'argument', though I like that you called it that. Still, just swapping a word around doesn't mean it's not contradictory. So, my answer is yes, that's what I did. I ought to have written, "You had made no original arguments", thus the lack of conviction at the time of the post.
Dat backpedaling.
Polski has asked me to explain why EDH gets a pass for now. The reason is that he looks like me. I did everything he did in my first forum Mafia game. His talking about how he should play, which is informed by what other people say, his unashamed basing of opinions off other players' opinions, his looking at patterns and links trying to solve the whole game at once as in post 95. I believe there's no shortage of ways that the rest of us could wring all manner of flailing from him , and what would that prove? (Rhetorical question.)
He seems town. It's a single impression, which the Academy is weighting as such.
Now this is where I have a major problem. What you're doing is essentially an appeal to emotion—EDH reminds you of your first game, so your reads are based on that. The problem is that EDH isn't necessarily acting the way they are for the same reasons you acted the way you did. There's no guarantee that two people acting in similar ways in different games share an alignment. Using a gut feeling as a starting point is one thing, but you're taking the leap to basing voting decisions off it. There's no deeper supporting logic there. Plus you're downright defensive of him now (talking about "wringing all manner of flailing" from him and asking what it would prove—another appeal to emotion as if we're to feel bad for somehow bullying him by putting pressure on him). You could've framed it in an "I'm not going to apply further pressure for now" manner, but instead you're subtlely trying to get the rest of us away from him. Is there any reason you're framing it like that? Want to protect your buddy, perhaps?
-
Gen: You mention hydra dissonance is town, but I've been treating it as scum. Admittedly, I haven't actually played a game with such heavy reliance on hydras, so is there something I'm missing with how it's town?
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
TA and Brigade, you appear to be convinced that the other clan is scum. I would like to see some point/counterpoint arguments between the two of you and address each other's grievances. Why should I believe you are town and/or the other is scum? What about the points that clan/person has against you? Okay, now go.
I'd really like to see some activity from Flamingo (and others) by the time I get back in.
Flamingo has had a severe lack of posting early game, lurking is an obvious scum tell. Their first post was also rather abrupt, as though they were hopping in so they don't arouse any more suspicion. What bothers me is that they have Gaymers in their scum pile without having a read on them. That means that they've determined everyone not in that pile to be town. This could cause them to ignore future scum tells because a clan has already been written off as town.
I haven't played before so I can't say anything about their read on Brigade, however, SoE has been leaning scum on Brigade for a while now. Her posts point out others who aren't being helpful in hunting scum, however, much of the content of her posts are the same. Most of her posts are her being defensive of her actions and no further pressure being applied.
Her point about TTA "bandwagoning" seems inaccurate and a defensive measure. Looking back at the posts TTA has been pressuring Brigade from the get go, whether their vote lied there or not they were actively pursuing her intentions. They only diverted their attention when Brigade made a point about our lack of coordination. The next few posts from TTA shows them trying to garner more information from us. So their excuse for not voting to seek out more info on SoE is justified by their actions. In an effort to be more cooperative I'm waiting on bur before we make a vote. Especially since I haven't heard from Bur in 2 days. You should expect something by this evening.
Academy: So what are your reads, anyway? You're certainly unsure of yourself, but are there any reads at all you can commit to? You have "no idea" what The Family is, you can't say whether you think I'm town or not, and you don't really have any opinions on anyone else.
Your barnacle to start things off is one of my thoughts, I can tell you that. As to my opinions, opinions were hard to come by before recently.
"Dat defensiveness"? You then question what gen's emotional state is, then you admit you know why he's getting like that. Come on, what were you really prodding him for? Family is your scummiest read? Apparently lurking and weaselling are a-okay by you. You think you look like you're paying attention but your post 61 is as void as gen's post 58. What's the actual reason you addressed him?
Lurking and weaselling I don't like. Flamingo, post an opinion. Spirit of EDH, why do you defend Family in post #67? Why do you want to tell us how to play?
Gaymers, is Brigade now better- or worse-looking than Spirit of EDH?
My defense of family is simply my read on the matter, I'm not attempting to tell you how to play. I am giving you the logic behind my decision that his actions weren't particularly scummy to me. Do you disagree with my assumptions? Are there any reasons why you do that would help me get a better read on family at the moment? If so I want to hear them so I can better play this game.
Is this or is this not you telling other players how to play the game?:
We are only on page three so while there has been a little bit of discourse it is still hard to pinpoint who falls where in the scum/town spectrum. I would argue that at the moment it is justifiable to have to rely on a bit of your gut, at least until there have been more posts.
Do I disagree with your assumptions? You mean gen's "being blatantly aggressive"? Sure, I'll agree. Would scum be open about their colors? Wine In Front Of Me reasoning. Is it possible he is an irate player? Of course it's possible. Is it scummy to be left alone to defend yourself? If you start with the assumption he is stuck on his own just like he says, then yeah , him saying he is stuck on his own would be a truthful statement. What I'm not seeing is an argument to link the emotion to the alignment.
Now you're missing what I'm asking you. Why were you defending him, there?
Crafters: Most notably the strongest town player in the game currently. Wheat asks the questions people want answers to and is confident in his answers.
Which answers would those be? The ones you call "his answers".
Flamingo has had a severe lack of posting early game, lurking is an obvious scum tell. Their first post was also rather abrupt, as though they were hopping in so they don't arouse any more suspicion. What bothers me is that they have Gaymers in their scum pile without having a read on them. That means that they've determined everyone not in that pile to be town. This could cause them to ignore future scum tells because a clan has already been written off as town.
I haven't played before so I can't say anything about their read on Brigade, however, SoE has been leaning scum on Brigade for a while now. Her posts point out others who aren't being helpful in hunting scum, however, much of the content of her posts are the same. Most of her posts are her being defensive of her actions and no further pressure being applied.
KANK HERE
@EDH:
So, are you leaning scum or town on Flamingo then?
Why are you concerned about them possibly ignoring future scum tells from those not in their scum pile?
Why the segue into Flamingo's supposed read on Brigade?
Would you rather we focus on Brigade over Flamingo?
School projects are getting a bit overwhelming and I have a thing at Pride tomorrow, so V/LA for the rest of the weekend at least. I'll be back available probably either late Monday or on Tuesday.
- Teia
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
@Flamingo: I'm reading town on Generic/Family. That meltdown of his reeked of frustrated town!Generic (which I have personally been the brunt of before). Why have you written off EDH as town though? Simply because they've put effort into the game thus far?
Their posts also read genuine.
Do you have experience with newb!scum that put consistent effort and analysis in the game?
Quote from TTA »
@Flamingo: Show your work. In what way does that imply that we have inside knowledge?
It read as a panicked scum response to the name claim.
Quote from Crafters »
@Flamingo: Why (in #103) do you have a town read on Brigade and then essentially goad TA into voting for them at the end of your post (which they did in #106)?
We didn't mean to goad TA into voting them; I pointed out that they were calling Brigade scum without voting them, which is a common scumtell.
Quote from Crafters »
@Flamingo: If you don't have a read on Gaymers yet, then why are they in your "scum pile" (#103)?
The way I sort out my reads is Town and Not Town. Not Town is my PoE pile.
I'm assuming that we can simply lynch through the pile and win.
The Tolarian Academy [2]: Clan Flamingo (88), MTGS Brigade (115)
[Spirit of EDH] [1]: [The Crafters] (63)
Clan Flamingo [1]: The Family (96) MTGS Brigade [2]: Gaymers (97), The Tolarian Academy (106)
@Family: You must not have noticed my currently unanswered follow-up questions to EDH and Flamingo, the two clans that I am most interested in hearing from right now.
Wheat is still not back, but I am perfectly happy to leave our vote on EDH. While it seems that other clans are content to write off EDH as noob town for their behavior, I am not. I closely inspect every post and judge whether it makes more sense from a town or a scum perspective. I'm more successful with town!clearing early game than scum!catching. I get very suspicious when players aren't willing to answer my questions, which you may recall from WW2 Mafia. With the agonizingly slow pace of this game and the infrequency of other players posting, the pieces are coming in ever so slowly. I'd like to hear from Gaymers, who hasn't posted in quite some time now (before I subbed in for Wheat now even), and I'd like to see Tolarian and Brigade go head to head and see if town or scum subatomic particles bounce off during their collision.
There aren't enough pieces revealed in this puzzle for me to see the full picture yet. Hopefully some of my other clan members will help me with some homework, as I've been flying semi-solo for a while now.
Flamingo has had a severe lack of posting early game, lurking is an obvious scum tell. Their first post was also rather abrupt, as though they were hopping in so they don't arouse any more suspicion. What bothers me is that they have Gaymers in their scum pile without having a read on them. That means that they've determined everyone not in that pile to be town. This could cause them to ignore future scum tells because a clan has already been written off as town.
I haven't played before so I can't say anything about their read on Brigade, however, SoE has been leaning scum on Brigade for a while now. Her posts point out others who aren't being helpful in hunting scum, however, much of the content of her posts are the same. Most of her posts are her being defensive of her actions and no further pressure being applied.
KANK HERE
@EDH:
So, are you leaning scum or town on Flamingo then?
Why are you concerned about them possibly ignoring future scum tells from those not in their scum pile?
Why the segue into Flamingo's supposed read on Brigade?
Would you rather we focus on Brigade over Flamingo?
-Kankennon-
Flamingo honestly haven't had much input in this game, this leads me to lean scummy on them. They've voiced opinions but have always done it rather abruptly. They answer the questions asked of them but do nothing more. He asks you(crafters) if you have experience with newb!scum participating and trying to actively scum hunt. He implies that he doesn't but then never really follows up with his own participation, instead he participates enough for them to seem like they are somewhat involved, but not enough to actually help solve anything.
Also I am HIGHLY wary of the way he has chosen to play the game, it seems very dangerous to just have a pile of what he assumes to be scum and to lynch through them until he either hits both scum or we lose. This goes along with the second question of him ignoring future scum tells. If he's so sure that the current pile is accurate then he opens himself to getting sloppy with his reading and analysis.
I chose to segue into the post on brigade since at the moment they were the prime target of scrutiny and I wanted to make it clear where we stand on them.
However, more analysis of Flamingo's meager amount of posts has driven us to this vote. We'd like to see more of flamingo, also Brigade is already dangerously close to lynch and flamingo is happy to sit back and watch. I want to hear more from you and want to see more of you in the conversation.
Also since Brigade is away at the moment this may be the perfect time to pressure Flamingo for more answers.
In particular I'm very interested in why you feel free to sit back on the TTA push on brigade if they are in your town pile. If you have your game plan then why let them derail it so easily? Smells of scum to me.
What happened to waiting for hydra agreement on a vote? What happened to academy being the top suspect? What happened to flamingo being a neutral due to a lack of posts?
I don't know if you are bussing or jumping on the other main suspects of people to try and temper this heat on you, but that's a total 180 on everything you have been defending up to now. And conveniently after I point to your hesitancy on the vote you slap one down without hesitation.
~ gen
I talked with bur yesterday, we're 7 hours apart so it makes it hard to discuss anything in a timely manner, we both agreed that we've been waiting on our vote for long enough. We just weren't sure where to put it yet. We're apprehensive on pushing through with the wagon on Brigade because of our uncertainty of TTA's motives. We feel that putting the vote on flamingo will pressure them into being more active while also giving us time to pressure TTA and Brigade before making a decision.
Flamingo was a neutral read due to his lack of posts, however, upon reflection of the posts it seems as though they're trying to avoid discussion as much as possible. We find this to be a rather scummy behavior. The vote is meant to apply pressure on Flamingo to participate or risk lynch. We agree that we need to see more from them before lynch but without pressure they will never have any reason to post.
Where are you reading academy as our top suspect? We've been saying brigade is our top suspect for scum for a long time now. The only reason we decided not to push through on the vote for them was that we feel that TTA's sudden push on them is rather scummy and would like to have more time to analyze that situation.
What are your feelings on the points we made about Flamingo lurking and their scum pile method?
I misremembered your one suspect. I remember you had a single suspect you had been focusing on, and suddenly flamingo moved into focus, which I still find interesting.
I find it odd you never mentioned a discussion has took place. Especially since that was a big point against you holding off on that vote for so long.
I have to wonder now if you saw my deconstruction of brigade and conclusion they are town and decided to not push that wagon to L-1 with so much focus of suspicion on your hydra.
~ geb
Flamingo hasn't been in focus due to them being so lurky, we honestly haven't given much credence to them because we expected them to post more. However, we're getting close to a possible lynch at this point and they still haven't spoken much. Now is the obvious time to focus on their inactivity because it seems they were comfortable to sit back and watch a lynch without any input.
For us it is less so your deconstruction of brigade and more the behavior of TTA, as we stated. I thought I made it clear in my vernacular when I said "we" when referring to the vote that it was a group decision. Maybe I should have been more explicit.
I'll clarify that the current content of my posts comes from information already shared between me and Bur and a justification of those decisions.
I don't recall ever giving you my consent about voting Flamingo. All I've been talking about has been about voting Brigade... So could you please leave "we" out of your posts?
While I agree that I'd like to hear more from Flamingo (and Gaymers), still voting without consulting me (and no, "I'm going to vote for them and I think you'll agree with me" doesn't count)...
@EDH:
So, are you leaning scum or town on Flamingo then?
Why are you concerned about them possibly ignoring future scum tells from those not in their scum pile?
Why the segue into Flamingo's supposed read on Brigade?
Would you rather we focus on Brigade over Flamingo?
#1 I'm quite neutral.
#2 & #3: No idea. I hope Human answered these well enough.
#4: While I'm quite sure Brigade is mafia, I'd like to hear more from Flamingo, that's sure.
However, I'd still like to hear more WHY Flamingo gave us Town-pass. While there is some reasoning, that still doesn't convince me. There's a chance that they are trying to distance themselves from lynching a town by saying that we are town, since I'm not buying that one that easily.
To be honest, if I were anyone else, I'd be voting for us. I'm getting my biggest mafia-reads from us besides Brigade.
PS: Sorry for my absence without saying anything. I've been busy with work and too tired to focus properly on the game lately.
@EDH: I'm asking the two main players separately because of the apparent dissonance between you
Human: Bur still appears to want to focus on Brigade. Do you share his feelings on them?
Bur: Why do you perceive yourself (EDH) as your own biggest mafia read other than Brigade? Why such a disparity with Human?
@TA:
Re: Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer. Analogy: UCL uses his back story as just a simple caveman, unfamiliar with our modern world and how it works as his main excuse/defense of his actions in order to gain public/jury sympathy, all the while secretly amassing wealth and power by gaming the system. AKA The "I don't how to play or never played mafia before" excuse. I remain wary.
If you are both each other's top scumspect, then why is it a stupid idea to present your case against Brigade while they present their own case against you?
Why is it suspicion-spreading if they are indeed mafia?
If you are town, wouldn't you easily be able to shoot down their arguments against you?
Are you doubtful now that Brigade is mafia or are you unable/unwilling to generate a case against them?
-Kankennon-
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I have an inkling, yes, which I already mentioned. There's more than one scum to pick at, and therefore I prioritize the ones with less content. The ones with more content have more to be analyzed later.
Same concept of letting a fish continue to swim around a bit while fishing. Well, I think. I haven't ever fished before, but I assume it's like mafia. Call the fish scum and they get lynched right into your boat, that's the way it works, right?
-Wheat
Probably, but if so, I don't recall anything about him.
Looking at it from the perspective of "would scum act this way?" only opens you up to WIFOM. Instead, I'm looking at it from the perspective of "would town act this way?" Or, more precisely, how acting that way helps find and catch scum. From what I saw, his outbursts weren't helping the town, so I latched on to those. But he hadn't explained that his real-life issues were having such an effect on him by that point, and in light of that it's less scummy and more just letting his circumstances drive him towards bad play. His answer to my question of how his play helps the town (that it doesn't and he'll work on controlling any future outbursts) satisfies me that it's less likely he's scum and more likely he inadvertently sent off scummy signals.
What? I asked him some questions in 55, he talked about RL issues being the cause for his emotional state in 58, and I responded in 61 based on that new information. How are either of them "void," exactly? I didn't know why he was posting like he was or what he was trying to accomplish, he posted some more detail about those things, and I took that new information into consideration.
Don't think I didn't notice you quoted me asking you a question only to turn things around and get aggressive on me. You don't even commit to calling me scum. You just accuse me of barning and proceed to have at me. Hoping people will ignore you and go after me without having to commit to a strong position yourself, perhaps?
I'm wondering where the town mindset is in this. I guess it could be from the perspective of not wanting to go after someone if they're considered town, but why would you want to do that? This isn't a game of "don't lynch town." It's a game of "lynch scum." How is identifying townie players going to help us identify scum, exactly? Finding not-scum doesn't do the town nearly as much good as finding scum, after all.
The other thing that struck me as odd was that Bur claimed that he thought the idea was to softclaim roles, but Human clearly hadn't misread that post as of 33. So are the two of them even coordinating? I can't imagine that each player going off with contradictory arguments is helpful, especially when they're supporting reads. The first point in his post reads like a clumsy backpedal, anyway.
So yeah, Academy's still scummy and EDH isn't looking much if any better.
Gaymers and Flamingo need to post more because they've lurked through so much it hurts.
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
1) Gosh. I'll tell everything properly, after you have answered me. There's no point in this one, if I first tell what I want you to answer. Let's just say that thanks to Crafters answering this, it confirmed my thoughts regarding them, for good and bad.
2) I thought it was painfully obvious that our coordination isn't working really well.
~Bur
I'll have some substantial thoughts together soon.
~scarbo
Regarding MTGBrigade: They are my second suspect for mafia at the moment. I'll write a proper post soon, after I have more time.
I can't speak for Kraj, but you and MTGBrigade are pinging my scumdar.
Generic is rage-posting. What's new? Nothing reads as though he doesn't believe what he's saying, which is a good town indicator. One question though: How was Brigade defending Academy when Academy was listed as Brigade's second scum read in the post you quoted?
The Crafters
The suggestion for soft-claiming is innocuous. If anything it's a town indicator as scum would be preemptively wary of how it would be taken. I like the vote on Brigade, and I agree with Wheat's posts against EDH.
Clan Flamingo
Post please.
MTGS Brigade
Post 55: If Family was your biggest scum read, why was there no vote to back it up? You have more issue with EDH than Academy, yet the latter takes the spot for your second scum read.
Post 79: What happened to your scum read on The Family? Now EDH and Academy are you top scum reads?
Spirit of EDH
50: You've not 'made up your mind' on Brigade, yet that's where your vote lies.
68: Why is a propensity for 'jumping on bandwagons' indicative of town? Also...there have been no bandwagons yet. In your read on Family, you say something odd:
Who is 'you?'
Why do you want to know everyone's strongest town read? Sounds like crowdsourcing reads.
75: Human's epic fence sit on Brigade is golden, "I'm not going to call scum yet..."
The Tolarian Academy
Pressure on EDH and Brigade is cool. Polski (in particular) - what do you think about Family?
~scarbo
If you tell someone you've got a trap it's not a trap anymore.
-Wheat
We don't really care if we soft claim our names or not.
The Crafters and Spirit of EDH are probably town.
There's something off about The Tolarian Academy's reaction to the name claim.
The Family/Generic is being annoying but I've seen this from town!Gen so I'm willing to give him a pass for now.
Vote The Tolarian Academy
~ AI
what
-wheat
I don't recall asking you what it is you wanted as far as answers go. I asked you why you asked that question.
How is a lack of coordination between you two going to help in catching scum, exactly? Compare your answer here to Gen's answer when I pressured him. His response was, in essence, "Yeah, I guess it's not helping. I'll work on that." Your response is just, "Yeah, I guess it's not helping." There's a lack of a follow-through here. Is it something you're working on, or do you intend to ride the game out like this?
I didn't vote for the Family because I wanted Gen's answer first. He answered in a way that felt townie to me (as detailed in post 79), so I updated my read accordingly. Academy remains a scum read from my initial assessment owing to the fact that his behaviour (especially being asked for commitment to a read, only to commit to an observation and attempt at deflecting focus back onto me when he hadn't yet answered my questions), and the reason EDH moved up to the other slot is because their behaviour doesn't seem particularly pro-town when you consider what they're actually doing. They're focused on seeing who the least scummy people are when that behaviour advances the scum gameplan (figure out who not to target, see if either scum is safe) much better than the town gameplan (because we want to identify scum, not town). Their lack of coordination between them is also a red flag because it indicates that each EDH poster is operating under a different set of assumptions, interpretations, and therefore reads—very dangerous when both are using the same hydra as a mouthpiece (and should thus ostensibly be better coordinated in their scumhunting).
Also there isn't really anything to the order I listed them in.
How is this still relevant?
Also, what's the reasoning behind your reads? What was off enough about Academy's reaction that you're voting them because of it? Is there anything else about him that contributes to this read and subsequent vote, or is it just that reaction?
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
I'll be blunt. No, I am not telling others how to play the game. I'm giving others some insight as to how I'm playing the game so that they can form their opinions about me from an enlightened point of view.
I stated earlier in the thread that I was learning that this game it is more important that I as a town actively and aggressively seek the scum. My natural inclination was to try to determine who is town and move from there. I'm learning that it is more beneficial for town to seek the scum and remove them than to determine who is town and try to then vote off the scum. I think that they would both lead to the same conclusion but there are more town than scum so it will be faster and more efficient to find the scum. In the future I will seek information that can be helpful in determining who is scum rather than who is town.
The link that I created between the alignment and the emotion is that Brigade determined that it was scummy of him. I on the other hand think that his actions were warranted if the situation was indeed accurate. Maybe I should say that his emotion isn't "town-like" but it doesn't feel scummy to me. However, I now realize that this information is useless since we can't verify his claims.
To answer your question as to why I was defending him because I had a warped perception of the role of town. I defended his reasoning for the anger, but I am not defending him as a town. As I see it everything after that post that family has posted hasn't progressed this game at all.
Knowing this I want to hear his reads, he hasn't contributed since before everyone started revealing their reads. I also would like to ask him to give some specific reasons as to why he's reading what he is.
As for my comment on crafters, they have been putting the pressure on everyone. They have actively sought scum since the get go. He wants to know why people are saying what they are and he makes his stance clear.
That should answer your questions H_H if it doesn't feel free to continue to ask me things and I will reply. I'll stop here because I want to talk to bur before posting anything else and his time zone is drastically different than mine.
I have a doctors appointment with a lung specialist tomorrow and it's a 6 hour drive, I won't be back until thursday, just a heads up.
~Human
At this point, I was referring to Crafters.
I don't know what crowdsourcing is, but is sounds like some marketing trick. And, I'll get to the point at the end of this post.
By interesting, I mean it piqued my interest. Like I have already said, I misunderstood "softclaim roles" and "softclaim names". That's why I was really wondering what on bloody earth is Crafters thinking.
And then for... everything.
First of all, here is my current list of thoughts regarding you:
Town:
Crafters - they are focusing on finding the mafia and is leading the game and discussion. There's not a thing that has (besides that one misunderstanding) really turned on my mafia-radar. They've been asking questions en masse, they started accusing us for good reasons yet they haven't come across to me as someone who are really hell-bent on a single target (aka us).
Family - Thanks to Crafters (and Flamingo), I am now pretty sure Family is not mafia, unlike I thought. You guys both have been playing with him and told that this is not unusual to him even as a town, so I'll give him a pass. Also, since Crafters listed them as their most trusted player, I'll take your word regarding him.
Neutral:
Tolaria Academy - To be honest, I haven't been paying much attention to you guys. I've been more focused on Family, Crafters and lately Brigade. Without delving too deeply into you or your posts, you haven't triggered off my mafia-radar.
Flamingo - While he hasn't really contributed much, I can't say much regarding him. However, since he did not jump "EDH is mafia" bandwagon and apparently trusts us, it made me doubt that he'd be mafia. If mafia, I would've expected him to vote us, since we've been giving strong mafia-vibes. He wouldn't have needed to state much reasons since the way I understood it, it's "self-explanatory". Whether or not I had been his mafia-mate (can I say that?), it would've been logical to vote us if he was.
Gaymers - While at first, their accusations towards us come across to me more of an attack (and by "attack", I mean "let's kill them") than pressuring and fishing for information, it might have something to do with that I keep comparing you to Crafters. However, lately your accusation has turned more into a mild interest regarding us and fishing for information, so I'm not putting you into mafia at this poins.
Mafia:
MTGBrigade - Their accusations has come across to me quite aggressive and while they haven't clearly stated their opinion like others (there's bit here and bit there, but it's always hidden in the wall of text) and even refusing to give them out even when I asked. And they've been attacking "popular" choices for mafia, like Family (okay, that might stretching it a bit) and us. However, her attempt to accuse Academy has come across to me more of an poor attempt to hide her mafia-mate than an actually accusation.
Also, I recall Academy said they had some questions. Please, ask what you want and I'll answer. I know you had something, but I forgot what and it seems to be lost in the long posts.
~Bur
interestedcurious why I asked that, it was simple. I wanted to know who do you trust and regarding who are you staying on fence. After hearing you, I'm assured (like I stated in my previous post) that Family is not mafia and if Brigade is mafia, Gaymers is not their pal. Academy might be (they don't seem suspicious. It's Brigade who makes them suspicious).My only jab of consern is that my evaluation is totally wrong and Crafters is mafia after all (and if you are, I salute you for being really good at it), but in that case I'd say Family is their partner-in-crime. Crafters steping in, defending Family and stating they trust them the most sound a bit like them being in the same team, but since at this point, we can't be sure about anyone else's alignment. Only exception to this is mafia, who (supposedly, unless these guys have some really weird rules) know each other.
I'm still in the middle of analysing it all, but these are my primary conclusions.
~Bur
Crafters - I think Wheat is the only one to post thus far, but I keep agreeing with him and haven't seen anything yet to ping my scumdar. Town.
Family - raging aside, gen's posts feel genuine. The actual content (stances, votes, answers to questions) have been reasonable. Gen's reaction to TA/Polski's post 48 is the same as how I reacted (see below). My only concern at this point is too much noise and not enough signal. Town.
EDH - Bur's post 50 is so bad it actually makes me think he's town. It's literally a list of scumtells so blatant that I can't help but feel like anyone actually trying not to appear as scum couldn't possibly make this post. Human's 67, interestingly, makes the same argument in regards to gen. Human's 75 could logically be both townie or scum, but my gut says he's genuinely looking for cracks in a possible facade; at this point in the game I'd expect mafia to just name Wheat as town and be done with it. Leaning town.
UNVOTE
Flamingo - Lack of posting is troubling, lack of content when finally posted is troubling. While not completely terrible, post 88 just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. To be fair, though, there's a lot of content to digest so a light first post is understandable. Too early to call, but absolutely suspicious.
TA - I've found H_H's posts to be pretty reasonable and townish-looking. Polski, however, is pinging my scumdar. Post 48 strongly feels like waiting to see which way the wind blows. Post 89 is a troubling, half-hearted backpedal on Family/gen. Leaning scum primarily due to Polski, and also my knowing H_H is good enough to not be easily caught.
Brigade - Vote: Brigade Teia is scummier than my shower. (who wants pics?)
Post 34 - Doesn't take a stance, barns Academy/H_H, classic "honestly" tell, and subtle first dose of the scummy "is that helpful?" argument.
Post 55 - I hate this post so hard. The push at gen is awfully strong and reads a lot more like she's pushing him to meltdown rather than genuinely trying to get a read on him. Calling him out on defensiveness without considering the motivation behind it. And again with the "I won't say his behavior is scummy, but it's not HELPFUL to scumhunting", which is a classic scum argument. I've never seen a scum lynched beacuse of being "unhelpful". NEVER.
Post 61 - Again with the "how does this help the town" argument. Since gen had just posted his rage in #60, again I feel like this response is intended to provoke a further meltdown rather than get a genuine read.
Post 79 - This is the post that sealed the deal. EDH's Human doesn't think a scum gen would be so brazen about it. Teia steps in to convince him otherwise, with the "is this helpful?" argument yet again. But then backs off in a "hey, I wasn't wrong. See how scummy he acted? But yeah, I can see how he might not be scum" fashion. And the rest of the post is a whole lot of throwing minor suspicion around to see what sticks.
-Kraj
I asked for reads you could commit to. The only thing you "took care of" before grilling me was to say, "Your barnacle to start things off is one of my thoughts, I can tell you that. As to my opinions, opinions were hard to come by before recently." Now, that's a non-answer, given that I asked if there were any reads (not opinions, not observations, but reads) you could commit to. If there was a specific post of yours that contained the information, referencing it might have worked. But this vague brush-off of yours doesn't count as "[taking] care of" anything. You brushed off actually answering the question I asked, and you just keep insisting your version of events is accurate despite that it's clearly not.
Anything that informs his in-game actions is relevant. Just because something occurs outside the game doesn't mean it can't affect anything within it.
These two points seem contradictory. I've made no original arguments, but the reason you're not voting me is because I made an original argument?
I don't like this subtle bit of doubt. "If the situation was indeed accurate." Sure, anyone could lie about anything, but casting doubt on his story is like saying that someone's only claiming to be V/LA as an excuse to lurk. Sure, it's possible, but it's a WIFOM argument at best.
Saying he was one of my scum suspects is somehow avoiding saying his behavior is scummy? You're also stretching pretty far with the whole "it's not HELPFUL to scumhunting" thing. My arguments (both in that post and others) haven't been about helpfulness so much as mindset. Helpfulness is just one of many means to an end (just as talking about how a person's behavior affects each faction's gameplan is a means to an end). There's nothing wrong with trying to find town or scum motivation in someone's behaviour—it's all a part of scumhunting, after all. Don't square-peg-round-hole my arguments.
Now, I know it was Scarbo and not Kraj asking, but did you consider post 91 in your assessment? If so, why not include it, especially since it answered questions posed by your hydra? If not, why not, when it's germane to your hydra's accusations against me?
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
The Tolarian Academy [1]: Clan Flamingo (88)
[Spirit of EDH] [1]: [The Crafters] (63)
Clan Flamingo [1]: The Family (96)
MTGS Brigade [1]: Gaymers (97)
Not voting [3]: The Tolarian Academy (40), [Spirit of EDH] (44), MTGS Brigade (55)
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
"Humans who dare to play God must pay a steep price for their arrogance."
Please inform me when you see any votecount errors.
Another tip for those who have trouble posting from the correct account: make sure the color schemes for both accounts are different so that you easily notice when you're on the wrong one.
The reason only I have been posting for Crafters is because we decided to do it that way from the start; Kank's really good at analysis (even better than I am; he's a natural at mafia) but I'm better at getting people to post analyzable things to begin with; therefore it made more sense for me to be the sole poster. We also have PikachuGundam and Kahedron offering opinions in the QT, if you're wondering about our numbers.
I'm a bit busy until Sunday and Kank's got a good lead so he'll be posting for at least the next few days for sure if not for the rest of the game.
-Wheat
@EDH: You say you haven't been paying much attention to Tolarian Academy (in #94), yet you say that Brigade makes them suspicious (in #95). Why is that? Have you gone back and paid attention to them since that was posted? (If not, go ahead--I'll wait.) Okay, what is your opinion of them now that you have?
-Kankennon-
For the three clans that aren't currently voting (TA, EDH, Brigade), who are your top scumspects and why?
-Kankennon-
I like how The Crafters are driving discussion and asking good questions, like 41 and 51. I don't think he's right regarding SoE and The Family, though - having Generic as the strongest town read off page 3 makes me wary.
For SoE, high effort newbies tend to be town - newb scum usually prefer just.. hiding, in my experience.
@Tolarian:
This reaction reeks of having inside knowledge.
We have a town read on Brigade because Teia's been extremely transparent about her scumhunting processes, and she's radically different in her scum game. If Teia's posts make you want to smack somebody, she's town.
Examples:
The Family
TAA
Gaymers
If our reads are correct, two out of three scum are in that pile. Game is solved.
We don't have a read on Gaymers yet.
Still happy with our vote on TAA - they call Brigade scum but they don't vote her, and I don't understand why they aren't.
~p
@Flamingo: I'm reading town on Generic/Family. That meltdown of his reeked of frustrated town!Generic (which I have personally been the brunt of before). Why have you written off EDH as town though? Simply because they've put effort into the game thus far?
-Kankennon-
Like I said in the previous page, my currently strongest mafia-read comes from Brigade. However, I can't say anything regarding Human. That's also the reason why we haven't voted for anyone for last... quite a few pages. I'm discussing the matter him Human, but since he hasn't answered yet, no vote from us yet.
And why Tolarian Academy, you asked? While it's true I haven't paid that much attention to them (compared to you fo Family), the reason why Brigade makes them a tad suspicious is their attitude towards them. They haven't voted for them, despite being their most suspected person for mafia (besides us). I would've understood that if they'd voted for someone else (like us), but no. Also, while they seem to be yelling that TA is suspicious, there's the one instance (#91) where suddenly Brigade seems defensive of TA, when someone else doubts them too...
Overall, it just feels slightly like an attempt to hide her partner-in-crime. For now, I'm wary and keeping eye on them.
~Bur
@EDH: In what way is Brigade being defensive of TA in post #91?
@TA: Why is EDH town to you?
-Kankennon-
@Flamingo: Why (in #103) do you have a town read on Brigade and then essentially goad TA into voting for them at the end of your post (which they did in #106)?
@Family: What is the Flamingo OMGUS you mentioned in #108?
-Kankennon-
@Flamingo: If you don't have a read on Gaymers yet, then why are they in your "scum pile" (#103)?
-Kankennon-
The Tolarian Academy [1]: Clan Flamingo (88)
[Spirit of EDH] [1]: [The Crafters] (63)
Clan Flamingo [1]: The Family (96)
MTGS Brigade [2]: Gaymers (97), The Tolarian Academy (106)
Not voting [2]: [Spirit of EDH] (44), MTGS Brigade (55)
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
"It's remarkable how weak they are."
@Family: I wouldn't call that an OMGUS, more like a woefully underwhelming and unsubstantiated POE. Considering they only have, really two posts this whole game, Flamingo needs to actually start playing this game.
@EDH: What's your take on Flamingo?
-Kankennon-
Academy and EDH. Neither seems to be approaching this game from a really townie mindset. Academy's overzealousness seems forced to me, what with how they casually misrepresent prior interactions (see also 98 where I harp on them again for completely dodging a question only to aggro on me). Oh yeah, and they cleared EDH without any supplemental reasoning being presented. They ask a lot of questions but don't seem to provide much content of their own. It kind of falls between active lurking and trying to figure out which wagons are safe to push. All around scummy.
EDH tried that "who does everyone think is most townie?" thing, and the disorganized feel of their members makes me wonder just what their priorities actually are. It's not quite as strong a read as with Academy, but things like him casting subtle doubt on Gen's explanation leave me with little niggling doubts that I can't ignore.
How, exactly?
That's not being defensive of Academy. That's trying to get more information from Flamingo. I'd have asked those same questions no matter who they voted for.
How, exactly, did you come to that conclusion? You're so overzealous on pushing to lynch me that you're completely forgetting everything else. It's a recurring problem, actually. You'll ignore answering questions in favour of brushing people off and attacking me (e.g. 74 where you don't answer what your reads are, 106 where you don't list another suspect despite Crafters asking for multiple). You ask a lot of questions, but don't seem as interested in supplying your own analysis. 48 and 92 are the only posts of yours I see with substantial original reasoning behind them, and 48 was wishy-washy while 92 was fairly scant (accusing me of opportunism, along with that contradictory "you don't supply original arguments but I'm not voting you because of an original argument of yours"). Now you push me so hard you forgot to explain how you got from point A to point B, how EDH is now town in your eyes. It's like lynching me is your first priority, and minor little things like explaining your reasoning (and thus showing you're bothering to scumhunt rather than just pick targets) take a backseat to that. You know which faction doesn't need to scumhunt in order to push for a lynch? The scum.
Vote Tolarian Academy
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
@Mods: Could you please go to the Flamingo CCM QT and see if someone will come and play this game? This is ridiculous.
-Kankennon-
@Gaymers: You haven't posted since I subbed in. Is Brigade still your number one scum? What are your thoughts on Flamingo and TA?
@TA: [120] Why did Polski ask you (HH) to explain why EDH gets a pass (and from your point of view, not his)? Why did he not answer that here himself?
-Kankennon-
Yes, I'm going to stand on that. When someone asks what your reads are, they're asking you who you think is town and who you think is scum. And, implicitly, the reasons for those reads. An observation like "this person barns stuff" isn't a read. It's just that: an observation. You're not reading into someone's actions to determine their alignment when you say "this person barns stuff." This whole thing of yours reads like a wishy-washy backpedal because someone's not letting your actions slide. "What are your reads?" followed by you dodging the question and aggroing on me, then claims of you having actually answered the question, and you're only now saying "oh well I guess there was a misunderstanding."
And reads, plural, when 74 was just you asserting I barned stuff and asking people questions? How does your post convey your reads in your head, anyway?
Dat backpedaling.
Now this is where I have a major problem. What you're doing is essentially an appeal to emotion—EDH reminds you of your first game, so your reads are based on that. The problem is that EDH isn't necessarily acting the way they are for the same reasons you acted the way you did. There's no guarantee that two people acting in similar ways in different games share an alignment. Using a gut feeling as a starting point is one thing, but you're taking the leap to basing voting decisions off it. There's no deeper supporting logic there. Plus you're downright defensive of him now (talking about "wringing all manner of flailing" from him and asking what it would prove—another appeal to emotion as if we're to feel bad for somehow bullying him by putting pressure on him). You could've framed it in an "I'm not going to apply further pressure for now" manner, but instead you're subtlely trying to get the rest of us away from him. Is there any reason you're framing it like that? Want to protect your buddy, perhaps?
-
Gen: You mention hydra dissonance is town, but I've been treating it as scum. Admittedly, I haven't actually played a game with such heavy reliance on hydras, so is there something I'm missing with how it's town?
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
TA and Brigade, you appear to be convinced that the other clan is scum. I would like to see some point/counterpoint arguments between the two of you and address each other's grievances. Why should I believe you are town and/or the other is scum? What about the points that clan/person has against you? Okay, now go.
I'd really like to see some activity from Flamingo (and others) by the time I get back in.
-Kankennon-
This is in response to post #114 by The Crafters.
Flamingo has had a severe lack of posting early game, lurking is an obvious scum tell. Their first post was also rather abrupt, as though they were hopping in so they don't arouse any more suspicion. What bothers me is that they have Gaymers in their scum pile without having a read on them. That means that they've determined everyone not in that pile to be town. This could cause them to ignore future scum tells because a clan has already been written off as town.
I haven't played before so I can't say anything about their read on Brigade, however, SoE has been leaning scum on Brigade for a while now. Her posts point out others who aren't being helpful in hunting scum, however, much of the content of her posts are the same. Most of her posts are her being defensive of her actions and no further pressure being applied.
Her point about TTA "bandwagoning" seems inaccurate and a defensive measure. Looking back at the posts TTA has been pressuring Brigade from the get go, whether their vote lied there or not they were actively pursuing her intentions. They only diverted their attention when Brigade made a point about our lack of coordination. The next few posts from TTA shows them trying to garner more information from us. So their excuse for not voting to seek out more info on SoE is justified by their actions. In an effort to be more cooperative I'm waiting on bur before we make a vote. Especially since I haven't heard from Bur in 2 days. You should expect something by this evening.
Below are the posts that I am referencing above:
~Human
KANK HERE
@EDH:
So, are you leaning scum or town on Flamingo then?
Why are you concerned about them possibly ignoring future scum tells from those not in their scum pile?
Why the segue into Flamingo's supposed read on Brigade?
Would you rather we focus on Brigade over Flamingo?
-Kankennon-
- Teia
"This isn't the power of a Queen Succubus. It's just... mere violence."
Their posts also read genuine.
Do you have experience with newb!scum that put consistent effort and analysis in the game?
It read as a panicked scum response to the name claim.
We didn't mean to goad TA into voting them; I pointed out that they were calling Brigade scum without voting them, which is a common scumtell.
The way I sort out my reads is Town and Not Town. Not Town is my PoE pile.
I'm assuming that we can simply lynch through the pile and win.
~p
Re: Flamingo #130
Indeed I do. Me in Basic #70.
If Brigade is town to you, then why not try to talk TA into looking elsewhere for scum?
Why would you risk the game on an assumption instead of actively scumhunting?
-Kankennon-
@Family: If Flamingo is scum, who's their teammate? (I take it not Brigade from your analysis.)
-Kankennon-
@Family: You must not have noticed my currently unanswered follow-up questions to EDH and Flamingo, the two clans that I am most interested in hearing from right now.
Wheat is still not back, but I am perfectly happy to leave our vote on EDH. While it seems that other clans are content to write off EDH as noob town for their behavior, I am not. I closely inspect every post and judge whether it makes more sense from a town or a scum perspective. I'm more successful with town!clearing early game than scum!catching. I get very suspicious when players aren't willing to answer my questions, which you may recall from WW2 Mafia. With the agonizingly slow pace of this game and the infrequency of other players posting, the pieces are coming in ever so slowly. I'd like to hear from Gaymers, who hasn't posted in quite some time now (before I subbed in for Wheat now even), and I'd like to see Tolarian and Brigade go head to head and see if town or scum subatomic particles bounce off during their collision.
There aren't enough pieces revealed in this puzzle for me to see the full picture yet. Hopefully some of my other clan members will help me with some homework, as I've been flying semi-solo for a while now.
-Kankennon-
Indeed. I like to think of it as the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer defense strategy. (Old SNL skit with Phil Hartman for those that missed the reference.)
-Kankennon-
Flamingo honestly haven't had much input in this game, this leads me to lean scummy on them. They've voiced opinions but have always done it rather abruptly. They answer the questions asked of them but do nothing more. He asks you(crafters) if you have experience with newb!scum participating and trying to actively scum hunt. He implies that he doesn't but then never really follows up with his own participation, instead he participates enough for them to seem like they are somewhat involved, but not enough to actually help solve anything.
Also I am HIGHLY wary of the way he has chosen to play the game, it seems very dangerous to just have a pile of what he assumes to be scum and to lynch through them until he either hits both scum or we lose. This goes along with the second question of him ignoring future scum tells. If he's so sure that the current pile is accurate then he opens himself to getting sloppy with his reading and analysis.
I chose to segue into the post on brigade since at the moment they were the prime target of scrutiny and I wanted to make it clear where we stand on them.
However, more analysis of Flamingo's meager amount of posts has driven us to this vote. We'd like to see more of flamingo, also Brigade is already dangerously close to lynch and flamingo is happy to sit back and watch. I want to hear more from you and want to see more of you in the conversation.
Also since Brigade is away at the moment this may be the perfect time to pressure Flamingo for more answers.
In particular I'm very interested in why you feel free to sit back on the TTA push on brigade if they are in your town pile. If you have your game plan then why let them derail it so easily? Smells of scum to me.
/vote Flamingo
I talked with bur yesterday, we're 7 hours apart so it makes it hard to discuss anything in a timely manner, we both agreed that we've been waiting on our vote for long enough. We just weren't sure where to put it yet. We're apprehensive on pushing through with the wagon on Brigade because of our uncertainty of TTA's motives. We feel that putting the vote on flamingo will pressure them into being more active while also giving us time to pressure TTA and Brigade before making a decision.
Flamingo was a neutral read due to his lack of posts, however, upon reflection of the posts it seems as though they're trying to avoid discussion as much as possible. We find this to be a rather scummy behavior. The vote is meant to apply pressure on Flamingo to participate or risk lynch. We agree that we need to see more from them before lynch but without pressure they will never have any reason to post.
Where are you reading academy as our top suspect? We've been saying brigade is our top suspect for scum for a long time now. The only reason we decided not to push through on the vote for them was that we feel that TTA's sudden push on them is rather scummy and would like to have more time to analyze that situation.
What are your feelings on the points we made about Flamingo lurking and their scum pile method?
~Human
Flamingo hasn't been in focus due to them being so lurky, we honestly haven't given much credence to them because we expected them to post more. However, we're getting close to a possible lynch at this point and they still haven't spoken much. Now is the obvious time to focus on their inactivity because it seems they were comfortable to sit back and watch a lynch without any input.
For us it is less so your deconstruction of brigade and more the behavior of TTA, as we stated. I thought I made it clear in my vernacular when I said "we" when referring to the vote that it was a group decision. Maybe I should have been more explicit.
I'll clarify that the current content of my posts comes from information already shared between me and Bur and a justification of those decisions.
~Human
I don't recall ever giving you my consent about voting Flamingo. All I've been talking about has been about voting Brigade... So could you please leave "we" out of your posts?
While I agree that I'd like to hear more from Flamingo (and Gaymers), still voting without consulting me (and no, "I'm going to vote for them and I think you'll agree with me" doesn't count)...
#1 I'm quite neutral.
#2 & #3: No idea. I hope Human answered these well enough.
#4: While I'm quite sure Brigade is mafia, I'd like to hear more from Flamingo, that's sure.
However, I'd still like to hear more WHY Flamingo gave us Town-pass. While there is some reasoning, that still doesn't convince me. There's a chance that they are trying to distance themselves from lynching a town by saying that we are town, since I'm not buying that one that easily.
To be honest, if I were anyone else, I'd be voting for us. I'm getting my biggest mafia-reads from us besides Brigade.
PS: Sorry for my absence without saying anything. I've been busy with work and too tired to focus properly on the game lately.
~Bur
@EDH: I'm asking the two main players separately because of the apparent dissonance between you
Human: Bur still appears to want to focus on Brigade. Do you share his feelings on them?
Bur: Why do you perceive yourself (EDH) as your own biggest mafia read other than Brigade? Why such a disparity with Human?
@TA:
Re: Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer. Analogy: UCL uses his back story as just a simple caveman, unfamiliar with our modern world and how it works as his main excuse/defense of his actions in order to gain public/jury sympathy, all the while secretly amassing wealth and power by gaming the system. AKA The "I don't how to play or never played mafia before" excuse. I remain wary.
If you are both each other's top scumspect, then why is it a stupid idea to present your case against Brigade while they present their own case against you?
Why is it suspicion-spreading if they are indeed mafia?
If you are town, wouldn't you easily be able to shoot down their arguments against you?
Are you doubtful now that Brigade is mafia or are you unable/unwilling to generate a case against them?
-Kankennon-