I'm under the impression that an "unaligned pair" means "not of the same alignment", so while I understand your rationale for expressing "town v town" as this, I'm going to have to disagree with the premise.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Cythare. Why is it taking you so long to provide reasoning for your T/S list?
See: My post earlier today. You?
You said it would take longer. You didn't say why. So, why?
As for me, my T/S list isn't done. Difference is, you provided a list without reasoning. How do you have a list but no reasons for it?
I guess I should have been more clear: I'm just not going to do it for the time being. I went back to reread some things, saw that several other people are in the same boat, and many others haven't done it at all, so I lost interest. I've been providing my reasons as I go, which is sufficient.
I specifically want you to give me reasons for your reads. Are you really going to refuse to do that? Even one sentence each?
A busdriver could also direct away from one of their scum buddies in order to decrease the chances that that person gets vigged/tracked/copped.
So...you think I'm scum?
I thought it was more like someone thought LnGr was the Vig and wanted Megiddo dead - which strongly points to scum being the Redirector, IMO.
Currently you are a townread, I was just brainstorming possible explanations for why the redirection happened how it (allegedly) did.
Given that Karn is claiming the ability to redirect an action from its source to himself, it doesn't make sense that this other redirector targets a source. He's almost certainly a bus driver type, where he redirects actions targeting one player to target another instead.
You and Megs are both generally recognized as town. I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason why a townie would redirect from one to the other, unless they believed one or the other to be scum. And if it was a townie who used this ability, why have they not come forward?
I'm also having difficulty coming up with a situation where scum redirects from one person they know is town to another.
So I do believe that, with nobody claiming to be the redirector, the following things are true:
1) The redirector is scum
2) The redirector had a compelling reason to redirect from Iso to Meg when both are GRAT
Though... now that I think about it, you said you were targeted by at least one other ability last night, right? (The one that makes you and your target roleblock proof on subsequent nights)
So it can't be a complete Bus Driver....
Back to the drawing board.
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desCoures (21) -- Life happens. Life does not happen to this degree. desCoures is usually a post-a-day fellow, but his posts are dreadnoughts, complete with batteries of questions for a multitude of players. And while his last post or two here does reflect what I would expect from a town!dC, the effort just hasn't been there all along. He's opened most posts with an appeal to emotion (certainly more than he has not), and has a very vitriolic response to Seppel's suggestion that he replaces out, which reads like scum-mindedness. Furthermore still, don't forget that scum are less likely to replace out of games when they really should, because they feel that they don't want to abandon their teammates. I know I've experienced that for myself, and I can also think of Ganderin_Dan in Survival Horror as another example of this effect.
Vote desCoures.
First off, I've never been a 'post-a-day' fellow, not since some 5 years ago or so. I try to keep to a Mon-Wed-Fri posting schedule, and will make the effort to be around a bit more if needed, but it's not unusual for me to end up posting a day late or so if my real-life schedule gets in the way. And I'm personally insulted at what you're insinuating here. I try to put in the effort regardless of my alignment, and life does happen to 'this degree', thank you very much.
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
Now for this 'case'... let's dismantle this point by point...
I spoiled all of the relevant quotes for concision, in their entirity so people can read full context if they wish. Note that they go from most recent -> oldest. LIkewise, I'm going to progress from most recent -> oldest in my evaluation.
-) Rezombied opinion:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
vs
But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
Complete 180 on that.
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
@Seppel - let me put this in the most polite way I can manage. Screw off. I don't see where you get off calling me 'useless' and 'human wasteland'. I can't do a damned thing about work or getting sick, and if work really does get to a point where I completely can't manage, I will damned well ask for replacement myself.
Right. I don't actually have an awful lot of time today, especially with pre-release weekend coming up, and from my skim of recent developments there's this huge mess between a whole bunch of players that it'll take time to digest and untangle.
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
Self-conscious start to almost every single post.
I can't believe that this can be in any way a sincere attack, given that you should have seen the exact same kind of post from me in CT3. You know, the game which just ended not long ago, which I directly refer to several times, and which you replaced into as scum.
Also, there's distinct malice in the way you deliberately remove the context of the above quotes. Like for #622, where you cut out all but the very first line, about me being busy.
What did I actually say?
Quote from me »
Apologies for the late reply. Was horrifically busy yesterday.
I've also only skimmed latest content. Apologies for that as well, but my other game is kind of at a critical juncture.
..followed by a chunk of questions/commentary. Guess which game, and what critical juncture, I meant.
I'll be the first to admit I haven't exactly committed the most energy to this game, but you're doing nothing here but exaggerating through fallacy of omission. There's not a shred of a townie thought process in that.
Vote: DCIII
The omgus is real.
Both of these interactions feel very staged and insecure to me -- Seppel's interaction in particular reads like scum vs scum.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
I'll reiterate my original point here that scum are less likely to replace out [when not under pressure, obviously] than town is, because they feel as if they owe it to their team to stick it out. Scum usually form a tighter bond with each other as a result of the sensation of "it's us vs the world." Unless your name is Iso, in which case it's "it's me vs the world."
dC displays a lot of self-consciousness throughout these sections. He knows that he isn't pulling his weight, but he defends himself -- viciously -- against those who attack him. I don't remember seeing this level of vehemence from dC ever before -- he's usually pretty calm and collected. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that emotion is a scumtell from him, but it's something that I think I should mention in case someone has more experience with dC than I do and can say with greater certainty.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest.
I don't doubt the veracity of his historical anecdote about being mislynched because of Voxx's analysis. What I don't like, though, is that he seemingly bases his entire read on Prophylaxis on this one item. I further dislike this overall trend of people coming out against the votecount analysis that Proph has been doing, and it makes question if there's a concerted scum attempt at discrediting it because Proph is on the track of something.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
-) Pushes Sir Chris, AI, and Killjoy all on D1 -- all three of which have flipped town.
This one re@Killjoy especially bothers me:
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
I can't find the post now, but I am 100% certain that Killjoy specifically mentioned the possibility of not using his ability before dC posted this. dC either missed it or opted to neglect mentioning it.
Also, considering how much Megiddo's Vitality went nuts overnight, it's pretty obvious that 3 vit / night is meaningless to Meg. This reflects poorly on dC, because obviously KillJoy had actually considered the applications of his ability.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
Except, you know, KillJoy and AI both flipped town.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
1) Seppel interaction reeks of annoyed teammate.
2) Wrong about everyone who flipped N1: unlikely for someone of dC's skill. (aka: the not-an-idiot argument)
3) Uses historical anecdotes which don't necessarily apply to this game to attempt to guide opinions.
Bonus 4) Prophylaxis, can you check on this? I'm out of time to look back now, but I -think- that dC never actually voted for Chris, AI, or KillJoy despite having commented several times that he didn't like X / that Y was scummy etc. He voted DCIII twice, I believe, but never any of the three corpses. Can you confirm this since you have all the information handy courtesy of your vote analysis anyway?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
I've got leaning scum reads on Rhand, Proph, kamikaze, and whoever redirected lng
I've got light scum reads on Rezombied and lng
Like some others have already said, this makes absolutely no sense. And why do you have a scum read on KamikazeArchon again?
@DCIII
...I could have sworn I quoted you, but somehow I can't find it now... in any case. The line I quoted proves that, contrary to what you appear to be trying to imply with your selective quoting, I was in fact trying to, and did, provide at least some level of content despite my real-life schedule and issues with CT3.
And speaking of CT3, of course the majority of my posts didn't start like that - I was able to stick to my regular posting schedule for most of CT3. And of course I had more of a 'sense of purpose' there - because Azrael was obvscum since day 1 who kept throwing horrible points at me while calling me scum, and somehow despite that half the game decided to collectively swallow everything he said.
All of which you should be aware of, making you throwing that point at me nothing short of disingenuous. Furthermore, you're attempting to paint my posts as somehow 'self-conscious', when any amount of research into my previous games should show you I post like that whenever I fail to stick to my regular posting schedule. And I know you do the research.
--------------------------
...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Accordingly, Unvote: DCIII Vote: Arianrhod
I don't think LnGrrrR is scum, and I'm rather unsurprised he ended up redirected after suggesting Alway Eteem first thing day 1 - which is the other reason I think the redirector is scum. It also makes no sense for him to come out and say what he did as scum.
Also, since I forgot to do this on Monday...
Vote: Move to Alway Eteem
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Cythare. Why is it taking you so long to provide reasoning for your T/S list?
See: My post earlier today. You?
You said it would take longer. You didn't say why. So, why?
As for me, my T/S list isn't done. Difference is, you provided a list without reasoning. How do you have a list but no reasons for it?
I guess I should have been more clear: I'm just not going to do it for the time being. I went back to reread some things, saw that several other people are in the same boat, and many others haven't done it at all, so I lost interest. I've been providing my reasons as I go, which is sufficient.
I specifically want you to give me reasons for your reads. Are you really going to refuse to do that? Even one sentence each?
I would consider it if you can tell me with a straight face that I'm the only one you think this is important to get this information from at this juncture, but otherwise this is what I'm telling you. I don't see why you're so focused on me only after Megiddo mentioned my lack of reasons and not at any other point following my initial T/S list posting.
Cythare. Why is it taking you so long to provide reasoning for your T/S list?
See: My post earlier today. You?
You said it would take longer. You didn't say why. So, why?
As for me, my T/S list isn't done. Difference is, you provided a list without reasoning. How do you have a list but no reasons for it?
I guess I should have been more clear: I'm just not going to do it for the time being. I went back to reread some things, saw that several other people are in the same boat, and many others haven't done it at all, so I lost interest. I've been providing my reasons as I go, which is sufficient.
I specifically want you to give me reasons for your reads. Are you really going to refuse to do that? Even one sentence each?
A busdriver could also direct away from one of their scum buddies in order to decrease the chances that that person gets vigged/tracked/copped.
So...you think I'm scum?
I thought it was more like someone thought LnGr was the Vig and wanted Megiddo dead - which strongly points to scum being the Redirector, IMO.
Currently you are a townread, I was just brainstorming possible explanations for why the redirection happened how it (allegedly) did.
Given that Karn is claiming the ability to redirect an action from its source to himself, it doesn't make sense that this other redirector targets a source. He's almost certainly a bus driver type, where he redirects actions targeting one player to target another instead.
You and Megs are both generally recognized as town. I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason why a townie would redirect from one to the other, unless they believed one or the other to be scum. And if it was a townie who used this ability, why have they not come forward?
I'm also having difficulty coming up with a situation where scum redirects from one person they know is town to another.
So I do believe that, with nobody claiming to be the redirector, the following things are true:
1) The redirector is scum
2) The redirector had a compelling reason to redirect from Iso to Meg when both are GRAT
Though... now that I think about it, you said you were targeted by at least one other ability last night, right? (The one that makes you and your target roleblock proof on subsequent nights)
So it can't be a complete Bus Driver....
Back to the drawing board.
dkings claimed Lightning Rod - did you miss that? Not Karn.
Also, your premise is slightly flawed - the person targeting LnGr would have to know that he was targeting me for this to be a COMPLETELY anti-town move. As it is, it's just PRETTY anti-town because why Megiddo?
desCoures (21) -- Life happens. Life does not happen to this degree. desCoures is usually a post-a-day fellow, but his posts are dreadnoughts, complete with batteries of questions for a multitude of players. And while his last post or two here does reflect what I would expect from a town!dC, the effort just hasn't been there all along. He's opened most posts with an appeal to emotion (certainly more than he has not), and has a very vitriolic response to Seppel's suggestion that he replaces out, which reads like scum-mindedness. Furthermore still, don't forget that scum are less likely to replace out of games when they really should, because they feel that they don't want to abandon their teammates. I know I've experienced that for myself, and I can also think of Ganderin_Dan in Survival Horror as another example of this effect.
Vote desCoures.
First off, I've never been a 'post-a-day' fellow, not since some 5 years ago or so. I try to keep to a Mon-Wed-Fri posting schedule, and will make the effort to be around a bit more if needed, but it's not unusual for me to end up posting a day late or so if my real-life schedule gets in the way. And I'm personally insulted at what you're insinuating here. I try to put in the effort regardless of my alignment, and life does happen to 'this degree', thank you very much.
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
Now for this 'case'... let's dismantle this point by point...
I spoiled all of the relevant quotes for concision, in their entirity so people can read full context if they wish. Note that they go from most recent -> oldest. LIkewise, I'm going to progress from most recent -> oldest in my evaluation.
-) Rezombied opinion:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
vs
But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
Complete 180 on that.
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
@Seppel - let me put this in the most polite way I can manage. Screw off. I don't see where you get off calling me 'useless' and 'human wasteland'. I can't do a damned thing about work or getting sick, and if work really does get to a point where I completely can't manage, I will damned well ask for replacement myself.
Right. I don't actually have an awful lot of time today, especially with pre-release weekend coming up, and from my skim of recent developments there's this huge mess between a whole bunch of players that it'll take time to digest and untangle.
Apologies for not being around. Been sick in bed with some weird allergic reaction. The red spots still haven't all gone away.
Self-conscious start to almost every single post.
I can't believe that this can be in any way a sincere attack, given that you should have seen the exact same kind of post from me in CT3. You know, the game which just ended not long ago, which I directly refer to several times, and which you replaced into as scum.
Also, there's distinct malice in the way you deliberately remove the context of the above quotes. Like for #622, where you cut out all but the very first line, about me being busy.
What did I actually say?
Quote from me »
Apologies for the late reply. Was horrifically busy yesterday.
I've also only skimmed latest content. Apologies for that as well, but my other game is kind of at a critical juncture.
..followed by a chunk of questions/commentary. Guess which game, and what critical juncture, I meant.
I'll be the first to admit I haven't exactly committed the most energy to this game, but you're doing nothing here but exaggerating through fallacy of omission. There's not a shred of a townie thought process in that.
Vote: DCIII
The omgus is real.
Both of these interactions feel very staged and insecure to me -- Seppel's interaction in particular reads like scum vs scum.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
I'll reiterate my original point here that scum are less likely to replace out [when not under pressure, obviously] than town is, because they feel as if they owe it to their team to stick it out. Scum usually form a tighter bond with each other as a result of the sensation of "it's us vs the world." Unless your name is Iso, in which case it's "it's me vs the world."
dC displays a lot of self-consciousness throughout these sections. He knows that he isn't pulling his weight, but he defends himself -- viciously -- against those who attack him. I don't remember seeing this level of vehemence from dC ever before -- he's usually pretty calm and collected. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that emotion is a scumtell from him, but it's something that I think I should mention in case someone has more experience with dC than I do and can say with greater certainty.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest.
I don't doubt the veracity of his historical anecdote about being mislynched because of Voxx's analysis. What I don't like, though, is that he seemingly bases his entire read on Prophylaxis on this one item. I further dislike this overall trend of people coming out against the votecount analysis that Proph has been doing, and it makes question if there's a concerted scum attempt at discrediting it because Proph is on the track of something.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
-) Pushes Sir Chris, AI, and Killjoy all on D1 -- all three of which have flipped town.
This one re@Killjoy especially bothers me:
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
I can't find the post now, but I am 100% certain that Killjoy specifically mentioned the possibility of not using his ability before dC posted this. dC either missed it or opted to neglect mentioning it.
Also, considering how much Megiddo's Vitality went nuts overnight, it's pretty obvious that 3 vit / night is meaningless to Meg. This reflects poorly on dC, because obviously KillJoy had actually considered the applications of his ability.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
Except, you know, KillJoy and AI both flipped town.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
1) Seppel interaction reeks of annoyed teammate.
2) Wrong about everyone who flipped N1: unlikely for someone of dC's skill. (aka: the not-an-idiot argument)
3) Uses historical anecdotes which don't necessarily apply to this game to attempt to guide opinions.
Bonus 4) Prophylaxis, can you check on this? I'm out of time to look back now, but I -think- that dC never actually voted for Chris, AI, or KillJoy despite having commented several times that he didn't like X / that Y was scummy etc. He voted DCIII twice, I believe, but never any of the three corpses. Can you confirm this since you have all the information handy courtesy of your vote analysis anyway?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
I've got leaning scum reads on Rhand, Proph, kamikaze, and whoever redirected lng
I've got light scum reads on Rezombied and lng
Like some others have already said, this makes absolutely no sense. And why do you have a scum read on KamikazeArchon again?
@DCIII
...I could have sworn I quoted you, but somehow I can't find it now... in any case. The line I quoted proves that, contrary to what you appear to be trying to imply with your selective quoting, I was in fact trying to, and did, provide at least some level of content despite my real-life schedule and issues with CT3.
And speaking of CT3, of course the majority of my posts didn't start like that - I was able to stick to my regular posting schedule for most of CT3. And of course I had more of a 'sense of purpose' there - because Azrael was obvscum since day 1 who kept throwing horrible points at me while calling me scum, and somehow despite that half the game decided to collectively swallow everything he said.
All of which you should be aware of, making you throwing that point at me nothing short of disingenuous. Furthermore, you're attempting to paint my posts as somehow 'self-conscious', when any amount of research into my previous games should show you I post like that whenever I fail to stick to my regular posting schedule. And I know you do the research.
--------------------------
...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Accordingly, Unvote: DCIII Vote: Arianrhod
I don't think LnGrrrR is scum, and I'm rather unsurprised he ended up redirected after suggesting Alway Eteem first thing day 1 - which is the other reason I think the redirector is scum. It also makes no sense for him to come out and say what he did as scum.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, before I forget: I'm going to be V/LA from this afternoon until Sunday evening. Likely more LA than V, but I'll be limited to my phone so quoting and stuff will be even less possible.
So if anyone has outstanding questions for me, get them out in the next two hours or so if you want an answer this week.
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I would consider it if you can tell me with a straight face that I'm the only one you think this is important to get this information from at this juncture, but otherwise this is what I'm telling you. I don't see why you're so focused on me only after Megiddo mentioned my lack of reasons and not at any other point following my initial T/S list posting.
Because I focus on only a few people at a time. Don't worry about everyone else, I'll get to them in due time.
@Iso: See above.
Also, personal request: if you're quoting a giant post and only adding a few sentences, please either trim the post or put it in a spoiler or something.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Anyways, I'm not sold on dC because I'm not sold on Arian, but I'll lynch any of Seppel, LnGrrrR and Hunger.
I also felt bad w/r/t his family, but that's more OoGish.
Quote from Megiddo »
Your posts feel so artificial this game.
Why aren't you voting LnGrrrR?
Quote from Wildfire »
A lot of your content today thus far has been stuff like VCA. Which I know you're big on as town, but it's also something that scum can do to appear busy/productive while actually putting out a bunch of meaningless information. Especially when we've only got three confirmed flips out of 20-something, and the wagons have been huge, so you're speculating on the alignment of a huge number of players and using that to guess at the alignment of others.
I think your PBPA on LnG is a convincing case. I'm not sure he's the proper lynch today though because of the power of his ability in the plane we're going to be on tonight.
AI and Sir Chris have flipped town. Arianrhod is town and won't be lynched (I think you have your vote on him? You should move it to LnG). LnG is scum. Megiddo is town. hans is town. I'm town. You're probably town.
I guess what I'm trying to do here is, look at the wagon yourself and draw your own conclusions. This is wagon full of town reads for me, so seeing Seppel/LnG as the odd men out is instinctive.
What makes you think that Arian is the "correct" lynch toDay, as opposed to LnGrrrR?
--
rezombied has suddenly become a new town read.
I can't believe that dC sincerely thinks that Arian and I are scum. I'm town, and Arian's been so transparent.
Quote from dC »
Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Two votecount-related points:
- 1888 from Sir Karn didn't count (no unvote.)
- Rhand's vote, which was displayed in my earlier votecount, shouldn't have counted. My apologies.
World move vote: Alway Etteem (10) - KamikazeArchon, Iso, LnGrrrR, HookerPunch, Seppel, Wildfire393, Arianrhiod, Sir Karn, hansanator, desCoures
With 18 alive, it's 10 to lynch or move.
At the end of the day, after the lynch, you will move to Alway Etteem.
You couldn't be more wrong. I asked you to say what was most important because I wanted a better read on you. I want to know if you're dumb town (who I have a chance of convincing) versus scum (who I obviously can't convince). I don't want to go through the effort of trying to convince a scum to stop voting me. That's bonkers and I've done it way too many times. Most recently with AI(?) in Amistaria 3.
In other words, I care more about getting a read on you than trying to defend a case. So keep attacking me if you dare. Show me who you are.
The above is a threat, it's not trying to get a better read on me. It's just a "back off" statement preceded by the "dumb town" discrediting statement. If he was trying to get a better read on me, he wouldn't tell me what he was doing before forming a conclusion.
Until Curse stops sucking, you'll rarely get multi-quotes out of me.
@LnG: I'm kind of lost, and seeing what sticks. It doesn't help that Kami is being so scummy but Iso is protecting him.
Although compare DC3 to Rhand. DC3 is actually engaging me, and took the time to write up a case on me (it was a dumb case but a case nonetheless), whereas Rhand just keeps chanting "Seppel needs to die" hoping that people will just blindly follow him.
I love wagons on me. They're so helpful at finding out who's scum.
Again the use of the "dumb" discrediting language - but that last line. It's both forced and also defeats the purpose of what he's doing. If he really thought that letting a wagon build on him was helpful with regard to finding scum, why would he trumpet that's what he was doing? There are only four players on him. That line is a veiled threat with the implication of, "don't join my wagon." There is no other purpose because if it was his legit strategy he would have actually let it play out and pressure tested it more. Look at those two posts above. He's using them as a defense, not as a scum hunting tool.
Ok, here's something cool: I thought about leaving those two lines out because they would do exactly what you called me out on doing. Unfortunately I had misread your first response to me, which ruined my chance of getting a good read out of you when I asked you to list the important points.
I figured a town DC3 would highlight the most important thing, but I thought you had dodged an answer to that. When I reread, I realized you hadn't ignored my request, so I had to push you in some other way -- goading.
I'm not sure what I was expecting, and I knew I could be inviting this attack. I think your attack is well thought out (and compared to your D1 posts is much better).
I AM using these as a scum-hunting tool; they're just not good ones.
Gun to my head I'd say DC3 is town, but I'd kick myself for being wrong.
Fine. Would you be willing to case Karn if you're around on Day 4?
This is a weird question. I've given the reasons that I have a lean scum read on Karn - that he was loudly saying that he wanted to lynch AI over Killjoy Yesterday but he wasn't putting any effort into explaining why or trying to be convincing to anyone. I also think the LnGr wagon is bad and I have Seppel flip-contingent thoughts on him. As more stuff happens I'll either think he's more likely to be scum and push harder there, or I won't and I won't. That could be Day 4 if I'm alive, it could be Tomorrow, Today...
---------------------------------
I am going to wait for Arian to respond to dC before I give my thoughts there.
Ok, here's something cool: I thought about leaving those two lines out because they would do exactly what you called me out on doing. Unfortunately I had misread your first response to me, which ruined my chance of getting a good read out of you when I asked you to list the important points.
What did you think my response was if you misread it and how does it relate to adding those two lines at the end?
I figured a town DC3 would highlight the most important thing, but I thought you had dodged an answer to that. When I reread, I realized you hadn't ignored my request, so I had to push you in some other way -- goading.
I don't understand what you mean from this one - what would I highlight and what did you think I dodged?
I'm not sure what I was expecting, and I knew I could be inviting this attack. I think your attack is well thought out (and compared to your D1 posts is much better).
I AM using these as a scum-hunting tool; they're just not good ones.
Gun to my head I'd say DC3 is town, but I'd kick myself for being wrong.
Hey Proph - what are your thoughts specifically on the Seppel dialogue I'm having right now, meaning what do you think of the case I made and why? What do you think of his responses? Why are you not commenting on this situation when you keep talking about how he's scum with LnGr?
Ok, here's something cool: I thought about leaving those two lines out because they would do exactly what you called me out on doing. Unfortunately I had misread your first response to me, which ruined my chance of getting a good read out of you when I asked you to list the important points.
I figured a town DC3 would highlight the most important thing, but I thought you had dodged an answer to that. When I reread, I realized you hadn't ignored my request, so I had to push you in some other way -- goading.
I'm not sure what I was expecting, and I knew I could be inviting this attack. I think your attack is well thought out (and compared to your D1 posts is much better).
I AM using these as a scum-hunting tool; they're just not good ones.
Gun to my head I'd say DC3 is town, but I'd kick myself for being wrong.
DC3 keep talking with me.
This reads to me like a whole lot of Seppel looking like he's doing something but not actually doing something.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Yeh I know. Zindabad pointed it out to me again when he saw I was voting.
It means someone has an ability that nukes 3 vitality and stops the target from voting.
1. It doesn't matter what anybody else is doing. Please don't go all logical fallacy on me here.
2. They're almost certainly in the same spot as you but I don't even know who you are talking about.
1. In general, sure. I'm specifically referring to the KamikazeArchon scenario, where the mismatch feels more pronounced - he's not even interested in their reasoning, but is dogging me.
I would consider it if you can tell me with a straight face that I'm the only one you think this is important to get this information from at this juncture, but otherwise this is what I'm telling you. I don't see why you're so focused on me only after Megiddo mentioned my lack of reasons and not at any other point following my initial T/S list posting.
Because I focus on only a few people at a time. Don't worry about everyone else, I'll get to them in due time.
@Iso: See above.
Also, personal request: if you're quoting a giant post and only adding a few sentences, please either trim the post or put it in a spoiler or something.
This just reads like bull*****. You're not even focusing on "a few people". You are dogging this one item, and making a few throwaway remarks here and here. I guess you also ask hansanator who he thinks is scum here, which he responds to and you don't further engage or even acknowledge.
desCoures (21) -- Life happens. Life does not happen to this degree. desCoures is usually a post-a-day fellow, but his posts are dreadnoughts, complete with batteries of questions for a multitude of players. And while his last post or two here does reflect what I would expect from a town!dC, the effort just hasn't been there all along. He's opened most posts with an appeal to emotion (certainly more than he has not), and has a very vitriolic response to Seppel's suggestion that he replaces out, which reads like scum-mindedness. Furthermore still, don't forget that scum are less likely to replace out of games when they really should, because they feel that they don't want to abandon their teammates. I know I've experienced that for myself, and I can also think of Ganderin_Dan in Survival Horror as another example of this effect.
Vote desCoures.
First off, I've never been a 'post-a-day' fellow, not since some 5 years ago or so. I try to keep to a Mon-Wed-Fri posting schedule, and will make the effort to be around a bit more if needed, but it's not unusual for me to end up posting a day late or so if my real-life schedule gets in the way. And I'm personally insulted at what you're insinuating here. I try to put in the effort regardless of my alignment, and life does happen to 'this degree', thank you very much.
I remember you making, on average, a post a day in Survival Horror. Your tone between this game and Survival Horror is completely off, while we're speaking of such things.
Quote from dC »
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
If I'm going to do a comprehensive case, I need to address the 'appeal to emotion point' regardless of its original source. Accuse me of "cribbing" all you want, but it's a point that needs to be brought up. The fact that I'm not the person who originally made it shouldn't even enter into the equation.
Quote from dC »
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
I read scum-mindedness into it because I haven't seen you express that degree of emotion in a mafia game before. You've always been very even-keeled, even when being wagoned. This is in stark contrast to here, where you and Seppel have been damn near coming to blows. From my admittedly outsider perspective, that reads like you have yourself under a lot of pressure and you're disappointed in yourself for not living up to your ideals of yourself. You yourself mentioned in "Second" that mafia is a "team game." Mafia is only a team game if you're scum, however -- if you're your town, it's much more selfish than that. So, what team are you part of that you have a commitment to, exactly?
Quote from dC »
Now for this 'case'... let's dismantle this point by point...
I spoiled all of the relevant quotes for concision, in their entirity so people can read full context if they wish. Note that they go from most recent -> oldest. LIkewise, I'm going to progress from most recent -> oldest in my evaluation.
-) Rezombied opinion:
rezombied seems more likely to be town. He's still done basically nothing of consequence, but his 'oh *****, don't hammer yet, I need to catch up' in response to what he thought was KJ being hammered doesn't make sense from mafia that knew KJ was town at all.
vs
But on this same page rezombied's 'oh ***** please don't hammer' just looks horrible.
Complete 180 on that.
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
'case'
'point'
You can cut out the subtle devaluations any time. It doesn't help you look any better -- in fact, it has the opposite effect.
Regarding Rezombied, in what world do you live in where scum!Rez wouldn't say something like "oh ***** don't hammer?" It was obvious to everyone that KJ was going to get lynched if only because everyone was sick of the day continuing endlessly. It would be actually free townpoints for scum!Rez to say something like that.
<I snipped out the megaquote here for space consideration>
Quote from dC »
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
Scum never bus, distance, or vote each other :eyeroll:.
I'll reiterate my original point here that scum are less likely to replace out [when not under pressure, obviously] than town is, because they feel as if they owe it to their team to stick it out. Scum usually form a tighter bond with each other as a result of the sensation of "it's us vs the world." Unless your name is Iso, in which case it's "it's me vs the world."
dC displays a lot of self-consciousness throughout these sections. He knows that he isn't pulling his weight, but he defends himself -- viciously -- against those who attack him. I don't remember seeing this level of vehemence from dC ever before -- he's usually pretty calm and collected. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that emotion is a scumtell from him, but it's something that I think I should mention in case someone has more experience with dC than I do and can say with greater certainty.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
All I remember of Seppel in Survival Horror is that I was absolutely, 100% stake my life on it convinced that he was scum....and that I was wrong. My memory of you from Survival Horror was that you were fairly even-tempered and that you made a lot of dreadnought posts with a ton of quotes and questions. I remember that you actually applied yourself and were invested in the game.
More slanderous quotation marks. I can't even remember how long ago Survival Horror was, let alone minutiae from it. I have general impressions, and I go off of those when applying to the current game. Mafia may be the most important thing in your life, but it's not in mine. You can knock off the adhoms at any time.
Prophylaxis is continuing his vote analysis today, which I'm never had faith in and additionally been disgusted with since Voxxicus got me mislynched with his vote analysis - but despite town flips from both Killjoy and AI, his conclusions appear to have not changed in the slightest.
I don't doubt the veracity of his historical anecdote about being mislynched because of Voxx's analysis. What I don't like, though, is that he seemingly bases his entire read on Prophylaxis on this one item. I further dislike this overall trend of people coming out against the votecount analysis that Proph has been doing, and it makes question if there's a concerted scum attempt at discrediting it because Proph is on the track of something.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
That strawman attempt wasn't very subtle.
I have a town read on Proph -- apparently one of the only people who does. Amusingly enough, Killjoy's alignment doesn't actually alter the votecount analysis much. Per my reads (and Proph's as well, it seems), most of the scum stayed away from that wagon. There's a few question marks and holes, but by and large not much -would- have changed. AI and Sir Chris were basically dead weight.
For someone who hates votecount analysis so much, you certainly seem to put a lot of stock in evaluating gamestate after just the Day 1 lynch for relevant data.
-) Pushes Sir Chris, AI, and Killjoy all on D1 -- all three of which have flipped town.
This one re@Killjoy especially bothers me:
Question 2. Riddle me this. How in the world are you reading a town mindset into Killjoy's claim and the choices he was apparently intending to make? He has a vitality-destroying ability, that lowers a player's lifespan by a not insignificant amount over a few days... and his first thought is not to use this on someone he thinks is scum, but rather supposedly on one of his town reads. Because, apparently, he thinks that having their vitality hidden is enough of a benefit to scum to offset being effectively poisoned. Also note where he never appears to have considered the choice of just not using the ability, which is something I would have considered if I, as town truly thought that my ability would hurt town regardless on who I used it on, which would be the case if I had his role and actually thought hidden vitality was a real benefit to scum. That's why I never used my ability in Mostly Mute Monk, even when I could. This apparently has never crossed his mind.
I can't find the post now, but I am 100% certain that Killjoy specifically mentioned the possibility of not using his ability before dC posted this. dC either missed it or opted to neglect mentioning it.
Also, considering how much Megiddo's Vitality went nuts overnight, it's pretty obvious that 3 vit / night is meaningless to Meg. This reflects poorly on dC, because obviously KillJoy had actually considered the applications of his ability.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
I wasn't going to use it on Meg. I'm currently scumreading him, and have been all game. Likely it'll be one of Rhand, DC3, or DK.
Is there a reason you want a townread to lose vitality?
I don't. But it's either that or let a scumread get his abilities hidden.
A third option is I just not use it at all to target anyone, but then I'm useless.
Good thing you prefaced your remark by ramming a fencepole up your ass in case it existed and you just missed it.
I did derp and misremembered that he was planning on targeting Megiddo -- I think that's because Megiddo was asking for KJ to use it on him and I got it mixed up in my head. I will defend my assertion that everyone knew that Meg's vitality gain was going to be like that, though. He started at like 6 vitality compared to everyone elses' 25+, and he specifically asked that nobody bother raising his vitality. Obviously it follows that he can handle that himself. That was public information.
It's ironic that someone at some point said he thought there was a concerted effort to get AI through the day, because right now I'm feeling there's a distinct effort to get Killjoy through the day. One that's reminding me a lot of Cyberspace Mafia, and how three out of RobRoy's four teammates apparently felt his extra kill (which he also tried to spin as a town ability and wanted to be left alive one night to use and 'prove himself') was worth falling all over themselves to attempt to keep him from being lynched. Of these, Rhand looks particularly bad, but I don't like the way Sir Chris and HookerPunch are responding either.
Except, you know, KillJoy and AI both flipped town.
I'm rather torn on AI. The most recent game I remember playing with him as scum was Survival Horror, and I thought I remembered him being dismissive and stonewalling there, but when I looked back at that game it was actually mostly the opposite. It doesn't change the fact that his play this game has been less than convincing, though. Eh.
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
Find it and quote it, don't just say that you think it exists.
I'm still wary of DCIII. His #694 instantly reminded me of his endgame case in the just-concluded CT3, which is why I asked if that kind of case was usual for him. (Interestingly, as far as I saw while skimming, Prophylaxis was the only person who responded to that question.) Then there's his long emotional spiel in #945, which, as I understand it, is rather out of character for him - and he just finished the aforementioned CT3, where blatant emotional fakery basically won the scum team the game. And then there's how in that same post, he says he's 'feeling better about AI due to interactions with Iso'... but in his latest post he appears to be right back on AI as scum, despite having not mentioned him again in between. And his scumreads in that post are the erratic brothers and the two leading wagons.
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
I say again: because scum never vote/distance/etc each other. Why is OMGUS necessarily just a townie reaction? I know that when I'm scum-aligned, I often have an omgus reaction to my teammates because I don't enjoy getting bussed. It's that whole pesky team mentality thing again. In my head, I don't feel like my teammates should be bussing me because, goddamnit, we're supposed to be a team. Us vs the world. Etc. I was unspeakably furious with Rhand when he bussed me unnecessarily in Winterfell. I understood why he did it later when I calmed down (although to this day I disagree with his call), but that didn't change the knee-jerk emotive response I had.
1) Seppel interaction reeks of annoyed teammate.
2) Wrong about everyone who flipped N1: unlikely for someone of dC's skill. (aka: the not-an-idiot argument)
3) Uses historical anecdotes which don't necessarily apply to this game to attempt to guide opinions.
Bonus 4) Prophylaxis, can you check on this? I'm out of time to look back now, but I -think- that dC never actually voted for Chris, AI, or KillJoy despite having commented several times that he didn't like X / that Y was scummy etc. He voted DCIII twice, I believe, but never any of the three corpses. Can you confirm this since you have all the information handy courtesy of your vote analysis anyway?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
1. So you say. I see it differently.
2. I hold you in high regard as a player, and the more experienced the player, the more unlikely it is for me to excuse being wrong about everything. I've been fooled by Iso too many times. Hell, you were voted to represent Salvation in the Crosstown games. I'm supposed to just turn a blind eye to that? If Seppel makes it to midgame after having been wrong about every single read he's put forth in the thread, am I supposed to think that he's just having a bad game, or that he's scum?
3. I have nothing to say about this. It may be bias from my reads. At best, it's very manipulating, conniving, and conversation-guiding. I don't remember Proph employing this, but I probably missed it -- I don't remember a case by him on LnG at all.
Quote from dC »
...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
1. It doesn't matter what anybody else is doing. Please don't go all logical fallacy on me here.
2. They're almost certainly in the same spot as you but I don't even know who you are talking about.
1. In general, sure. I'm specifically referring to the KamikazeArchon scenario, where the mismatch feels more pronounced - he's not even interested in their reasoning, but is dogging me.
Why are you deflecting instead of just answering my question? This shouldn't be so hard.
I read DCIII over Night, but didn't have time for Proph.
43 - Votes Sir Chris with no real explanation.
45 - Suspicion of Proph for saying Meg is ignoring him (which Meg did to Proph in Winterfell)
67 - Engages Chris and Proph a bit.
- Says Wildfire has some different behavior.
187 - Agrees with Seppel AI and Wildfire are scum.
- Votes Wildfire. Says his tone is edgy and quippy and unusual for him as town.
- AI doesn't feel right either, but mostly due to Wildfire interactions, also says he doesn't think he believes his Cythare case.
- Mixed on Chris
- Warmed to Proph.
- Wary of KJ for RVS unvote and his selective focus on Megs' 159.
- Arian is very apologetic in 110 for suspecting Cythare.
285 - AI is scum and votes him.
- KJ and AI are scummbuddies.
- Full case on AI. Feels a bit he-said she-said to me. Mostly focused on how he votes using other players' reasoning.
- KJ is scummy because he asked bad questions and said he would vote AI if he though he was scum.
- Engages with Sir Chris explaining his mixed feelings.
- Feeling better about Wildfire. No explanation.
- Questions to Proph and Rhand.
339 - Responding to Meg explaining KJ's "slip" and finds it strange more people didn't discuss it.
421 - Questions EtR on his Sir Karn read.
- Karn's play is "probably a good sign"
- Questioning Hans on his reads.
- Compares Sir Chris to Dag in Deus Ex (assumably scummy?)
485 - Reply to Meg to wait a bit for an answer.
- Vote to move to Ruchperion.
554 - /barn Karn on AI being scum and Proph being likely.
- Doesn't like Hans for saying he liked DCIII's earlier post, and his posts seemed too normal, probably scum.
- Seppel saying he thinks Meg is town for a second time is un-seppel.
- Timing on LnG's vote of Cythare and reasoning copied.
- Sir Chris for his personal compliment.
- Doesn't like the Cythare wagon.
- Wants to see more from KJ, secon-guessing his scum slip read.
557 - Reply to Chris with a quote he referenced.
569 - Reply to Cythare about LnG. Leaning scum, but more interested in other players.
595 - Says he thinks Seppel is scum.
- Doesn't like little comments and his seemingly cavalier attitude about game mechanics.
- The way he voted and abandoned his HP vote felt like he wasn't scumhunting.
- Vote Seppel
- AI is still probably scum.
- Seppel, HP, AI, Proph could be a team, Hans looks better.
694 - Feels strongly Seppel is scum, but it's mostly gut.
- Reply to Meg about not being as involved in this game.
- Explains to Proph his read and how he finds him scummy.
- Asks Iso to respond to his Seppel read.
- Says he is on board with Iso's plan of lynching KJ and AI, but only if AI is toDay.
- Seppel > HP, AI, Proph > Wildfire are his strongest scum reads.
- Vote AI
738 - Replies to Seppel about his scumread and reiterates he wants Iso and Megs' opinions.
- Says he believes Proph and asks him to keep showing it after Proph said he was town and why he tunneled on Wildfire.
- AI, Seppel, HP still scummy, agrees to look into LnG more, but won't vote him.
744 - Questioning AI on not remembering his case.
824 - Says Meg is wrong about him.
- Likes Chris's KJ case and would be willing to vote him.
- Doesn't want to vote LnG toDay.
- Points out he doesn't like that AI doesn't remember his case and response.
826 - Discussing whether town or scum is more likely to forget who voted them with Sir Chris.
- AI's responses about his case seem fake.
830 - Asks Meg what he wants him to respond to.
833 - More discussion with Sir Chris about scum/town being aware of who votes them.
836 - Asking Meg for clarification.
- Answers Chris's question about whether AI typically cares/tries. Says he hasn't played with him, but he cares as a mod.
838 - Responds to Seppel pointing out he said he would vote KJ but didn't.
840 - Defends against Seppel's attack on why he is still voting AI when he said he would vote KJ.
841 - Asks Meg why he needs to reread.
845 - Question about why Meg doesn't like him.
847 - Response to Meg. Says he is being a prat and his points are vague or wrong. They know each other.
852 - More back and forth with Meg.
862 - Says Meg should feel bad for not being willing to engage him while whining about activity.
- Responds to Iso about why he got emotional with Meg.
- Meg is making the game about himself which is annoying.
- Iso misjuding his anger for fear is disingenuous.
892 - Lol at Seppel linking him to KJ
- Questions Iso on calling AI and KJ scum, but pushing against the AI wagon and voting KJ.
945 - Questions Seppel on why his Meg discussion is avoiding KJ.
- Defends against dking.
- Reiterates his point why Seppel is playing different.
- Admits to playing a different town game, but says he has never played a scum game like this either and asks DK if he has seen a scum game like this from him.
- Explains the background as to why he was annoyed with Meg.
- DK is probably town.
- Finds the way Iso called him nervious a bit suspicious.
- Response to Iso about why his pushing KJ over AI was suspicious.
- Vote KJ
- Feeling a little better about AI.
- Seppel, Iso still scummy, watching Proph, Wildfire quieted down after suspicion was off him.
- Meg, Sir Chris, Sir Karn are town.
970 - Reply to Meg about discrediting his attack.
- Reply to Karn restating his reads and summarizing previous wall.
- Reply to Iso and clarification on AI getting better.
- More interaction with Seppel on his Meg > KJ push.
- Clarification on his "have you seen me play like this as scum" to DK from previous post.
1032 - Reply to Meg, says opinion is changing (was town)
- Argues Megs' point about the time commitment while moving.
- Question to Meg about what was scummy in his response to DK
- Response to Cythare about why he wouldn't have had the exchange with Meg if he were scum.
- Refutes Seppel's insinuation DC was panicked about KJ getting pressure.
- Resonse to Iso re:AI and DC's suspicion of him and Seppel.
1066 - Reply to dk about playing out of his meta.
- Refutes Seppel.
- Clarifying with Iso.
- Restates issues with KJ/Seppel/AI/Iso.
- Most suspicious is Seppel trying to link him to KJ, Iso avoiding AI wagon.
- Muddled view of Meg.
1101 - Reply to dC about his current views on AI/KJ and also disagrees with Wildfire.
- Thinks Rez seemed townish, but had a weird reply to Meg and needs to see more from him.
- More on Iso > not wanting to lynch KJ.
- Thought Iso's behavior was odd that he forgot what they were arguing about despite trying to undermine him earlier.
1111 - Vote AI
- Mentions having "fewer jibbles" with the people supporting it (as opposed to KJ wagon).
1123 - Is convinced Iso is scum.
- Says Iso logic is contradictory in making sure his opinion on KJ is heard and now not wanting to push DCIII further.
1161 - Response to Iso about previous post.
- DK is probably town.
- Frustraded with Meg and not sure if scum.
- Self meta, won't ATE as scum.
- Makes sure his vote is on AI.
1207 - Doesn't like Arian's post and finds him suspicious now.
- Explains why AI is the best wagon to Cythare.
1247 - Calls for the KJ wagon to disband and move to AI.
1267 - Asks Seppel for an Arian read.
- Responds to Wildfire about his change of heart on KJ.
- Doesn't like more of Iso language, pushing KJ for surface level stuff.
- AI has been doing nothing to solve the game.
1287 - Vote Iso quoting Rhand asking if it's too late to switch.
- Asks Seppel to clarify his read on Arian.
- Reply to LnG insinuating DC3's push on Iso is bad.
1352 - Asks Rhand about his post asking if it was too late to switch to Iso.
- Agrees with Meg shedding doubt on the KJ claim and why it must be good for town.
1408 - Clarifies his stance he believes KJ, Iso is scum, and the AI wagon is better than KJ.
1410 - Defends his position on voting Iso over AI/KJ when asked by AI.
- Asks AI to explain why he asked the above.
1417 - Naked Vote on AI
1418 - Questions Iso on defending AI if he thinks he's scum.
1467 - Asks Meg to clarify how DC forgot who he was voting.
- Reply to Iso re:surface level stuff.
- barns Rhand on AI's behavior being concerning.
- Says AI's reasoning for calling Rhand town while attacking a town-read player (Meg) doesn't add up with calling DC scum for voting Iso and calling it a distraction from the real wagons.
- Says LnG was defending Iso.
- Says Iso is distancing.
- Tells Karn to case AI and explain why he wants it over the KJ wagon.
1542 - KJ is more town for thinking he was hammered and not changing his tune.
- AI is stonewalling.
- Reiterates Iso has been calling KJ and AI scum, but refuses to switch to AI.
- AI, Iso, Lng are all scum.
- Prods Meg to answer outstanding question from last post.
1544 - Iso pushing Kam and me to just hammer KJ before catching up is scummy.
1545 - @Meg "Enough with the games." re: Meg not telling him what he sees as bad in his play.
1597 - Restates his reasons to Iso why he is scummy
- Gets on Iso for discrediting him and calling his play a garbage scum game.
- More at Iso being scummy and refuting his arguments on letting replacements catch up.
- Says he doesn't think the competing wagons are both scum.
- Asks Seppel why his read on him changed and asks for an Iso read. Also why his KJ read is sure now.
- KJ wagon is bad. Mostly "feels bad"
- AI is just doing nothing, KJ is questioning and analyzing/explaining.
1674 - Explains to Meg why Iso is scum.
One of the reasons I wanted to reread DCIII was because Iso questioned my read of him being the only one to push Iso as scum.
AI had some back and forth with Iso in which he accused him of mudslinging and poor attacks, but coming from the guy on the receiving end, I would expect that. AI listed Iso as leaning town in his last t/s list, never actually cased Iso or called him scum, and didn't list him in his top two lynch options thing that he started. Also, he said this:
That's fine, I'll take a bullet if I'm wrong about AI.
As satisfying that would be, it doesn't help us any if you're just wrong-headed town.
Which I think says he was frustrated with Iso attacking him, but didn't really think he was scummy for it. When DC started calling Iso scum, AI did say it's possible and is even likely if KJ flips scum.
So, I wouldn't say AI was putting much pressure on Iso, and wasn't really in much of a position to garner any support anyway.
The other person I saw showing suspicion of Iso besides DCIII was KJ. And the only thing he did was list Iso along with AI as his top two lynch options when AI proposed everyone list their top two. There wasn't really any lead up to or explanation for including Iso other than saying Iso doesn't give reasoning for anything. He doesn't start to actually push Iso as scum until after DCIII makes it apparent he has been scum reading him. Like AI, KJ is coming from a place where he isn't going to get much support.
So basically, yes, Iso, I think my original point still stands. I think DCIII started pushing you on his own, or at the very least it doesn't seem like he was piggybacking on other people calling you scummy and taking an opportunistic shot. His development of his read on you seems genuine and with the AI and KJ wagons going on, I don't really see why he would have been pushing you as scum, especially considering he was tying it heavily to AI flipping scum. Sure there is WIFOM in that he could have thought the KJ wagon was already going through for sure and so he was trying to set up AI/Iso for toDay, but I just really don't think that's the case.
I originally said it was part of me town reading DCIII and I think it's even more so now that we have seen it play out for the most part.
_____________________________
The other reason I wanted to read DCIII is because I was town reading him the whole time I was following the game, but he started drawing some heat and I was wondering if I was missing something since I only skimmed some of his longer posts. I'm not going to quote posts here, and just summarized to save time since this probably isn't something that needs to be at the forefront of discussion now anyway, but if someone requests it, I can cite examples.
While at a glance some of his voting pattern in my notes was a little alarming, following up on it showed a logical and clear path to his reads. He engages people to get reads and his reads develop from those interactions. There was never a, "where did this come from?" moment. He also makes a lot of points that others don't, showing that they are original thoughts that he is developing and not just /barning off others.
He has also been very transparent in his thought processes. He fully explained why he reacted to Meg the way he did. He explained his reasoning for his reads multiple times when asked. I think in my summary there are like 3 or 4 times where I wrote that he had to reiterate or explain his case that he had already made. His reasoning is consistent for his reads and I never had a question as to why he was town/scum reading someone.
There is also just the gut feel of his posts for me. The way he explains things and interacts with people feels entirely genuine. Like, in my mind, he would have to be extremely good at faking a town mentality as scum.
Like I mentioned above, his push on Iso makes no sense as scum. Especially considering he totally backed off it toDay.
I guess if he is somehow scum, I'm buying what he is selling.
tl;dr - I have a strong town read on DCIII
- His push on Iso makes no sense as scum.
- His reads have clear development with lots of original points and engagement.
- He has been transparent in his thought processes.
- His posts feel genuine and show a town mentality.
_____________________________
I've been an ******** of a replacement and I apologize for that. I spent last night reading through D2 so I could participate in real time instead of playing from a perpetual state of catching up. I'm aware there are a couple questions people had for me, and things I wanted to comment on from the Day so I will get to those today, but feel free to engage me in the mean time.
T/S list from memory since I know that was one thing requested and is a good way to create talking points. Subject to change after I go back through the Day and reply to things.
Town
Hunger
Probably Town
DCIII - See above.
Meg - Trying to figure out the game and engaging with most players.
Wildfire - I said earlier, he is playing exactly like he has in the town games I have been in with him.
Iso - I have liked his play toDay. Seems to genuinely trying to figure out the game state/solve the game.
Lean Town
Rhand - He's being aggressive and analyzing which is my town Rhand. Granted I've only played one scum game with him and two town I think.
Kam - I think Iso is town and he thinks Kam wouldn't have given him what he did as scum.
Arian - Less scumhunting than DCIII, but has that same feel of genuineness and transparency I am seeing there.
dking - Seems to be analyzing things, scumhunting, and doesn't seem to be afraid to have contrary opinions.
?
Hans - None of his posts have stood out to me and have never played with him.
Proph - Like I said when I started the game, his posts have felt sort of fluffy and he seems to be very selective in what he addresses. Still would like to reread him though.
LnG - I didn't get the same scum feeling at first glance a lot of people are getting. Probably deserves a reread as well.
HP - No clue.
zombie - So lurky, don't remember having a high opinion of his posts, but not sure if the vote on Meg makes sense as scum or the don't hammer appeal at the end of the day when he was already lurking.
Lean Scum
Cythare - I don't recall ever getting a real town vibe from his posting and the fact he tried to push myself and zombie as lynch options for lurking before we posted toDay while plenty of other things are going on. I think someone else may have done this too. I think that was him at least, though I think someone else did it as well so I might be getting them confused. Will have to check on that. His whole thing with refusing to provide reasoning on reads is also weird.
dC - Lurky and the sheer number of self-aware apologizing and promising content posts is bad. Though I said the same thing about KJ and he flipped town. I thought the case on him was good.
Karn - He is in his "town meta" from what I see, which is infuriating, but his meta self-awareness makes me think it could be fake. Also, the game we just finished, Archer, KJ rode a town read for a couple Days based on the exact "town slip" that Karn is getting for not knowing Sir Chris was dead. I'm not buying it from a player of his repute, I think he is faking that for town cred since he just saw it happen in his last game. I mean the kills were on the same line a couple words apart. I also don't get the pointing to post counts without any context thing, seems weak.
Probably Scum
Seppel - Based mostly on the back of strong arguments from people that know him better/my town reads.
Initially, laziness. Now, because I've gotten frustrated with your dogged and total fixation on it, including the language you used to initiate it. If others (not just you) specifically want my reasoning, though, I will acquiesce.
Lean Scum
Cythare - I don't recall ever getting a real town vibe from his posting and the fact he tried to push myself and zombie as lynch options for lurking before we posted toDay while plenty of other things are going on. I think someone else may have done this too. I think that was him at least, though I think someone else did it as well so I might be getting them confused. Will have to check on that. His whole thing with refusing to provide reasoning on reads is also weird.
I'm pretty sure all I've said on this subject is "I'd love to hear from rezombied and Hunger" and disliking the few posts rezombied did provide during Day 1. I've also placed you both in my leaning scum pile, but that wasn't just for the lurking.
@Cythare - You are right after ISO'ing your posts. You had me in your scum pile from EtR and only requested me and zombie to post something. Pretty legit.. I'm pretty sure someone suggest lynching us for lurking though. I'm working on rereading the Day/responding to questions now so I'll see if I find it.
I'd move Cythare into ? land for me at the moment considering I was wrong on this point.
This changes a lot. Re-reading, focusing on the Illuminated in particular.
Iso, I hope my trust in you was not misplaced.
Meanwhile: Vote Move: Alway Etteem
Why the Illuminated?
vote Hunger because he's EtR, who is my most sturdy scumread.
This is a little weird. If Proph is a scum read, how do you resolve agreeing with his top three scum reads?
Also, do you have any games you remember where you pushed a replacement based on the predecessors play before getting an actual read on the replacement? Seems off.
Wait, what did karn give ISO? I thought karn targeted me
hansanator --> targeted Megiddo (succeeded)
Arianrhod --> targeted Prophylaxis (succeeded)
Cythare --> targeted Iso, was changed to DKings
Iso --> targeted Megiddo (motivator)
Sir Karn --> targeted Megiddo
LnGrrrR --> targeted Iso (Watch) (was redirected to Megiddo, Illuminates people who targeted his target)
KamikazeArchon (r. Niv) --> targeted Iso (Gift of anti-roleblock passive)
Wildfire393 --> didn't target anyone last night
dkingsland967 -- lightning rod (targets one player, draws to him)
AsianInvasion, Demernae's Force, found torn apart Night 1.
Sir Chris, Demernae's Passion, found dead but unmarked Night 1.
@Cythare, I want your reasoning too, but you won't provide it anyways because it takes work to make stuff up. What good does it do town to not provide your reasonings when asked?
@Karn, where are you?
Re: Rhand's loss of vote, either he has some ability that costs vitality and a vote (meaning it would have to be a ridiculously strong ability) or he got voteblocked. Occam's Razor suggests the latter, so putting him into my lean town pile for now.
Arian feels open and honest, not holding anything back. Not familiar enough with dC to say whether his meta call is correct or not. Anyone else that knows desCourse well enough care to chime in?
Whoever mentioned that the Chris wagon was a counter to the Wildfire wagon gets town points.
@Cythare, I want your reasoning too, but you won't provide it anyways because it takes work to make stuff up. What good does it do town to not provide your reasonings when asked?
The conversation was:
-Seppel: Cy, what are your scumreads?
-Me: Here is a list I made based on Iso's request to everyone
-Megiddo: There are no reasons.
-Me: Fine I'll give my reasons tomorrow.
-Me: Actually I won't be doing this.
-Kamikaze: What is taking you so long to provide your reasons?
I got angry at what I deemed loaded language. Have you ever not done something because you were frustrated?
Initially, laziness. Now, because I've gotten frustrated with your dogged and total fixation on it, including the language you used to initiate it.
You're frustrated because I'm following up on something you're refusing to give me? That makes no sense. What do you expect me to do when you refuse to answer my question? Say "Oh ok" and drop it? That's not how this game works.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Currently you are a townread, I was just brainstorming possible explanations for why the redirection happened how it (allegedly) did.
Given that Karn is claiming the ability to redirect an action from its source to himself, it doesn't make sense that this other redirector targets a source. He's almost certainly a bus driver type, where he redirects actions targeting one player to target another instead.
You and Megs are both generally recognized as town. I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason why a townie would redirect from one to the other, unless they believed one or the other to be scum. And if it was a townie who used this ability, why have they not come forward?
I'm also having difficulty coming up with a situation where scum redirects from one person they know is town to another.
So I do believe that, with nobody claiming to be the redirector, the following things are true:
1) The redirector is scum
2) The redirector had a compelling reason to redirect from Iso to Meg when both are GRAT
Though... now that I think about it, you said you were targeted by at least one other ability last night, right? (The one that makes you and your target roleblock proof on subsequent nights)
So it can't be a complete Bus Driver....
Back to the drawing board.
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How do you know that whoever targeted Sir Chris was Yblisa? Because I'm not seeing anything that suggests that in the slightest.
@Arianrhod
...right. Let's take this from the top.
First off, I've never been a 'post-a-day' fellow, not since some 5 years ago or so. I try to keep to a Mon-Wed-Fri posting schedule, and will make the effort to be around a bit more if needed, but it's not unusual for me to end up posting a day late or so if my real-life schedule gets in the way. And I'm personally insulted at what you're insinuating here. I try to put in the effort regardless of my alignment, and life does happen to 'this degree', thank you very much.
Second - not only does that 'appeal to emotion' point look completely cribbed from DCIII, it's also a complete misrepresentation. Like I reply to DCIII below, I post like that all the time whenever I miss my posting schedule. It's the only polite thing to do in a team game that requires a time commitment, and it's something that can be easily verified just by checking any of my past games. So trying to paint the use of the word 'apologies' as some kind of appeal to emotion to achieve... what exactly again?... is misinformed at best, and yes, outright malicious at worst.
Third - I was vitriolic towards Seppel because I was legitimately pissed off. Duh. I'd love to know how you read 'scum-mindedness' into that. In fact, I want you to detail how in the world that was supposedly the case to you.
Now for this 'case'... let's dismantle this point by point...
This is completely obvious. I thought KJ was scum - therefore rezombied coming in and saying 'oh ***** don't hammer' looked utterly horrible. Now in the context that KJ was town, it makes absolutely no sense for a scum rezombied to come in and say that, when he would obviously know KJ was town. The above quote even details this same reasoning.
This 'point' doesn't even stand up to the most casual scrutiny.
Easy enough to make that statement, huh? How are these supposed to be 'staged and insecure', hm? And I find it very interesting that basically your only statement on me vs. DCIII is to plaster an 'OMGUS' label on it... as though I hadn't already stated I found something off about DCIII on day 1.
That's a whole lot of fence-straddling language right there, for someone apparently confident enough that I'm scum to be voting me. You 'wouldn't go so far as to say that'... but you 'think you should mention it'. Riiiight. That's classic waving the thread and hoping someone else picks it up.
You 'not seeing this level of vehemence' from me before is also an utter lie, because you were in Ataghan and in Survival Horror, and you should have seen this 'vehemence' and worse from me multiple times over. Especially in Survival Horror, from my ongoing argument with Seppel for basically the whole of day 1. I refuse to believe you could have 'forgotten' that.
You seem very in love with Prophylaxis for some reason. And more than that, you seem so in love with him that you're rubbishing the actual point I had in there - that despite multiple flips, including Killjoy as town when the day 1 vote count analysis was ostensibly predicated on Killjoy being scum... his actual conclusions today appear to be exactly the same as his conclusions yesterday.
That strawman attempt wasn't very subtle.
This one doesn't have any basis in fact or logic. First - I haven't actually gone back to look, but I'm pretty sure that he never said any such thing. And, in fact, he even said he was planning to use it on a town read.
The latter sentence there is even more laughable, because it's predicated on both mKilljoy somehow knowing exactly what Meg's vitality was going to be like. Killjoy outright said he didn't want to use his ability on his scum read Megiddo because 'he didn't want Meg's vitality to be hidden', so if you want to claim that he factored Megiddo's current vitality into 'the applications of his ability', then you're going to have to argue he somehow knew what Megiddo's vitality fluctuation would be like. And frankly, I don't even get how that's supposed to 'reflect poorly' on me, given that Killjoy outright said he was planning on hitting one of his town reads - not Megiddo - and which would shorten the lifespan of said townread perhaps quite drastically.
And?
I distinctly recall later posting that I was against the AI wagon. Cherry pick much?
...so wait. Let me get this straight. Earlier you accuse me of OMGUS against DCIII... but here you seem to be suggesting DCIII is my scummate? What?
Other than mostly being complete meta, let me illustrate just how poor all these points are:
1. No, it's just plain annoyed.
2. I'm distinctly sure I was right about AI. But other than how absolutely ridiculous the 'not-an-idiot' argument is... you were in Ataghan Mafia, as scum. Where I was town, and so utterly wrong about just about everything day 1 that I remember being outright surprised you lot killed me night 1 upon seeing the alignment spread in the spectator chat. You know very well that I can and have been just about totally wrong. I'm having a very hard time seeing how you can possibly have made this argument in any kind of honest fashion.
3. Uh huh. Obviously I thought they did apply, if I brought them up. Just like I thought, rightly, that they applied when I brought up the past in CT3. And you're being very oddly selective about this, given that Prophylaxis (who, again, you seem absolutely in love with) literally just did the exact same thing in his case against LnGrrrR. To, obviously, no complaint whatsoever from you.
@hansanator
Like some others have already said, this makes absolutely no sense. And why do you have a scum read on KamikazeArchon again?
@DCIII
...I could have sworn I quoted you, but somehow I can't find it now... in any case. The line I quoted proves that, contrary to what you appear to be trying to imply with your selective quoting, I was in fact trying to, and did, provide at least some level of content despite my real-life schedule and issues with CT3.
And speaking of CT3, of course the majority of my posts didn't start like that - I was able to stick to my regular posting schedule for most of CT3. And of course I had more of a 'sense of purpose' there - because Azrael was obvscum since day 1 who kept throwing horrible points at me while calling me scum, and somehow despite that half the game decided to collectively swallow everything he said.
All of which you should be aware of, making you throwing that point at me nothing short of disingenuous. Furthermore, you're attempting to paint my posts as somehow 'self-conscious', when any amount of research into my previous games should show you I post like that whenever I fail to stick to my regular posting schedule. And I know you do the research.
--------------------------
...that took a while. I'm currently seeing Arian/Proph/DCIII as likely scum, probably in that order - Arian just slid a lot with that horrible case and the sheer number of fallacies he just threw at me, and Prophylaxis being so easily 'convinced' by that poor case makes him look worse as well.
Accordingly, Unvote: DCIII
Vote: Arianrhod
I don't think LnGrrrR is scum, and I'm rather unsurprised he ended up redirected after suggesting Alway Eteem first thing day 1 - which is the other reason I think the redirector is scum. It also makes no sense for him to come out and say what he did as scum.
Also, since I forgot to do this on Monday...
Vote: Move to Alway Eteem
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
dkings claimed Lightning Rod - did you miss that? Not Karn.
Also, your premise is slightly flawed - the person targeting LnGr would have to know that he was targeting me for this to be a COMPLETELY anti-town move. As it is, it's just PRETTY anti-town because why Megiddo?
-
/barn Megs
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
-
@Arch: Why are you so hung up on Cythare's T/S reasoning?
-
@dC: Um, the FLAVOR OF THE KILL, BRO.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
So if anyone has outstanding questions for me, get them out in the next two hours or so if you want an answer this week.
Currently Playing:
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2. They're almost certainly in the same spot as you but I don't even know who you are talking about.
@Iso: See above.
Also, personal request: if you're quoting a giant post and only adding a few sentences, please either trim the post or put it in a spoiler or something.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@Meg: did you ever answer the question I asked in #2028?
I also felt bad w/r/t his family, but that's more OoGish.
Why aren't you voting LnGrrrR?
Well, let's take a look.
killjoy (10) - Iso, Seppel, AsianInvasion, Sir Chris, Arianrhod, LnGrrrR, Megiddo, hansanator, Prophylaxis, Wildfire393
Iso is probably town.
AI and Sir Chris have flipped town. Arianrhod is town and won't be lynched (I think you have your vote on him? You should move it to LnG). LnG is scum. Megiddo is town. hans is town. I'm town. You're probably town.
I guess what I'm trying to do here is, look at the wagon yourself and draw your own conclusions. This is wagon full of town reads for me, so seeing Seppel/LnG as the odd men out is instinctive.
What makes you think that Arian is the "correct" lynch toDay, as opposed to LnGrrrR?
--
rezombied has suddenly become a new town read.
I can't believe that dC sincerely thinks that Arian and I are scum. I'm town, and Arian's been so transparent.
There it is again.
Seppel (3) - HookerPunch, DCIII, Iso
LnGrrrR (3) - Prophylaxis, Cythare, Sir Karn
dkingsland (2) - Megiddo, Seppel
Sir Karn (1) - LnGrrrR
Arianrhiod (2) - Wildfire393, desCoures
desCoures (1) - Arianrhiod
Megiddo (1) - rezombied
Two votecount-related points:
- 1888 from Sir Karn didn't count (no unvote.)
- Rhand's vote, which was displayed in my earlier votecount, shouldn't have counted. My apologies.
World move vote:
Alway Etteem (10) - KamikazeArchon, Iso, LnGrrrR, HookerPunch, Seppel, Wildfire393, Arianrhiod, Sir Karn, hansanator, desCoures
With 18 alive, it's 10 to lynch or move.
At the end of the day, after the lynch, you will move to Alway Etteem.
"...a talisman against all evil, so long as you obey me."
Ok, here's something cool: I thought about leaving those two lines out because they would do exactly what you called me out on doing. Unfortunately I had misread your first response to me, which ruined my chance of getting a good read out of you when I asked you to list the important points.
I figured a town DC3 would highlight the most important thing, but I thought you had dodged an answer to that. When I reread, I realized you hadn't ignored my request, so I had to push you in some other way -- goading.
I'm not sure what I was expecting, and I knew I could be inviting this attack. I think your attack is well thought out (and compared to your D1 posts is much better).
I AM using these as a scum-hunting tool; they're just not good ones.
Gun to my head I'd say DC3 is town, but I'd kick myself for being wrong.
DC3 keep talking with me.
@Iso: Why you interested in flavors of kills mang?
Also I'm definitely against any form of mass claim right now.
This is a weird question. I've given the reasons that I have a lean scum read on Karn - that he was loudly saying that he wanted to lynch AI over Killjoy Yesterday but he wasn't putting any effort into explaining why or trying to be convincing to anyone. I also think the LnGr wagon is bad and I have Seppel flip-contingent thoughts on him. As more stuff happens I'll either think he's more likely to be scum and push harder there, or I won't and I won't. That could be Day 4 if I'm alive, it could be Tomorrow, Today...
---------------------------------
I am going to wait for Arian to respond to dC before I give my thoughts there.
---------------------------------
What did you think my response was if you misread it and how does it relate to adding those two lines at the end?
I don't understand what you mean from this one - what would I highlight and what did you think I dodged?
I don't find the above convincing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Proph - what are your thoughts specifically on the Seppel dialogue I'm having right now, meaning what do you think of the case I made and why? What do you think of his responses? Why are you not commenting on this situation when you keep talking about how he's scum with LnGr?
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
Who is your favorite lurker and why?
This reads to me like a whole lot of Seppel looking like he's doing something but not actually doing something.
I was hoping someone would claim some info about anyone who targeted our dead d00dz because then we'd have caught Yblisa.
...that's kind of an important detail to leave out. .-.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It means someone has an ability that nukes 3 vitality and stops the target from voting.
2. They are Iso, Seppel, and Prophylaxis. This just reads like bull*****. You're not even focusing on "a few people". You are dogging this one item, and making a few throwaway remarks here and here. I guess you also ask hansanator who he thinks is scum here, which he responds to and you don't further engage or even acknowledge.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I remember you making, on average, a post a day in Survival Horror. Your tone between this game and Survival Horror is completely off, while we're speaking of such things.
If I'm going to do a comprehensive case, I need to address the 'appeal to emotion point' regardless of its original source. Accuse me of "cribbing" all you want, but it's a point that needs to be brought up. The fact that I'm not the person who originally made it shouldn't even enter into the equation.
I read scum-mindedness into it because I haven't seen you express that degree of emotion in a mafia game before. You've always been very even-keeled, even when being wagoned. This is in stark contrast to here, where you and Seppel have been damn near coming to blows. From my admittedly outsider perspective, that reads like you have yourself under a lot of pressure and you're disappointed in yourself for not living up to your ideals of yourself. You yourself mentioned in "Second" that mafia is a "team game." Mafia is only a team game if you're scum, however -- if you're your town, it's much more selfish than that. So, what team are you part of that you have a commitment to, exactly?
'case'
'point'
You can cut out the subtle devaluations any time. It doesn't help you look any better -- in fact, it has the opposite effect.
Regarding Rezombied, in what world do you live in where scum!Rez wouldn't say something like "oh ***** don't hammer?" It was obvious to everyone that KJ was going to get lynched if only because everyone was sick of the day continuing endlessly. It would be actually free townpoints for scum!Rez to say something like that.
<I snipped out the megaquote here for space consideration>
Scum never bus, distance, or vote each other :eyeroll:.
All I remember of Seppel in Survival Horror is that I was absolutely, 100% stake my life on it convinced that he was scum....and that I was wrong. My memory of you from Survival Horror was that you were fairly even-tempered and that you made a lot of dreadnought posts with a ton of quotes and questions. I remember that you actually applied yourself and were invested in the game.
More slanderous quotation marks. I can't even remember how long ago Survival Horror was, let alone minutiae from it. I have general impressions, and I go off of those when applying to the current game. Mafia may be the most important thing in your life, but it's not in mine. You can knock off the adhoms at any time.
I have a town read on Proph -- apparently one of the only people who does. Amusingly enough, Killjoy's alignment doesn't actually alter the votecount analysis much. Per my reads (and Proph's as well, it seems), most of the scum stayed away from that wagon. There's a few question marks and holes, but by and large not much -would- have changed. AI and Sir Chris were basically dead weight.
For someone who hates votecount analysis so much, you certainly seem to put a lot of stock in evaluating gamestate after just the Day 1 lynch for relevant data.
Good thing you prefaced your remark by ramming a fencepole up your ass in case it existed and you just missed it.
I did derp and misremembered that he was planning on targeting Megiddo -- I think that's because Megiddo was asking for KJ to use it on him and I got it mixed up in my head. I will defend my assertion that everyone knew that Meg's vitality gain was going to be like that, though. He started at like 6 vitality compared to everyone elses' 25+, and he specifically asked that nobody bother raising his vitality. Obviously it follows that he can handle that himself. That was public information.
It was a nice fearmonger.
Find it and quote it, don't just say that you think it exists.
I say again: because scum never vote/distance/etc each other. Why is OMGUS necessarily just a townie reaction? I know that when I'm scum-aligned, I often have an omgus reaction to my teammates because I don't enjoy getting bussed. It's that whole pesky team mentality thing again. In my head, I don't feel like my teammates should be bussing me because, goddamnit, we're supposed to be a team. Us vs the world. Etc. I was unspeakably furious with Rhand when he bussed me unnecessarily in Winterfell. I understood why he did it later when I calmed down (although to this day I disagree with his call), but that didn't change the knee-jerk emotive response I had.
1. So you say. I see it differently.
2. I hold you in high regard as a player, and the more experienced the player, the more unlikely it is for me to excuse being wrong about everything. I've been fooled by Iso too many times. Hell, you were voted to represent Salvation in the Crosstown games. I'm supposed to just turn a blind eye to that? If Seppel makes it to midgame after having been wrong about every single read he's put forth in the thread, am I supposed to think that he's just having a bad game, or that he's scum?
3. I have nothing to say about this. It may be bias from my reads. At best, it's very manipulating, conniving, and conversation-guiding. I don't remember Proph employing this, but I probably missed it -- I don't remember a case by him on LnG at all.
lol.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I read DCIII over Night, but didn't have time for Proph.
45 - Suspicion of Proph for saying Meg is ignoring him (which Meg did to Proph in Winterfell)
67 - Engages Chris and Proph a bit.
- Says Wildfire has some different behavior.
187 - Agrees with Seppel AI and Wildfire are scum.
- Votes Wildfire. Says his tone is edgy and quippy and unusual for him as town.
- AI doesn't feel right either, but mostly due to Wildfire interactions, also says he doesn't think he believes his Cythare case.
- Mixed on Chris
- Warmed to Proph.
- Wary of KJ for RVS unvote and his selective focus on Megs' 159.
- Arian is very apologetic in 110 for suspecting Cythare.
285 - AI is scum and votes him.
- KJ and AI are scummbuddies.
- Full case on AI. Feels a bit he-said she-said to me. Mostly focused on how he votes using other players' reasoning.
- KJ is scummy because he asked bad questions and said he would vote AI if he though he was scum.
- Engages with Sir Chris explaining his mixed feelings.
- Feeling better about Wildfire. No explanation.
- Questions to Proph and Rhand.
339 - Responding to Meg explaining KJ's "slip" and finds it strange more people didn't discuss it.
421 - Questions EtR on his Sir Karn read.
- Karn's play is "probably a good sign"
- Questioning Hans on his reads.
- Compares Sir Chris to Dag in Deus Ex (assumably scummy?)
485 - Reply to Meg to wait a bit for an answer.
- Vote to move to Ruchperion.
554 - /barn Karn on AI being scum and Proph being likely.
- Doesn't like Hans for saying he liked DCIII's earlier post, and his posts seemed too normal, probably scum.
- Seppel saying he thinks Meg is town for a second time is un-seppel.
- Timing on LnG's vote of Cythare and reasoning copied.
- Sir Chris for his personal compliment.
- Doesn't like the Cythare wagon.
- Wants to see more from KJ, secon-guessing his scum slip read.
557 - Reply to Chris with a quote he referenced.
569 - Reply to Cythare about LnG. Leaning scum, but more interested in other players.
595 - Says he thinks Seppel is scum.
- Doesn't like little comments and his seemingly cavalier attitude about game mechanics.
- The way he voted and abandoned his HP vote felt like he wasn't scumhunting.
- Vote Seppel
- AI is still probably scum.
- Seppel, HP, AI, Proph could be a team, Hans looks better.
694 - Feels strongly Seppel is scum, but it's mostly gut.
- Reply to Meg about not being as involved in this game.
- Explains to Proph his read and how he finds him scummy.
- Asks Iso to respond to his Seppel read.
- Says he is on board with Iso's plan of lynching KJ and AI, but only if AI is toDay.
- Seppel > HP, AI, Proph > Wildfire are his strongest scum reads.
- Vote AI
738 - Replies to Seppel about his scumread and reiterates he wants Iso and Megs' opinions.
- Says he believes Proph and asks him to keep showing it after Proph said he was town and why he tunneled on Wildfire.
- AI, Seppel, HP still scummy, agrees to look into LnG more, but won't vote him.
744 - Questioning AI on not remembering his case.
824 - Says Meg is wrong about him.
- Likes Chris's KJ case and would be willing to vote him.
- Doesn't want to vote LnG toDay.
- Points out he doesn't like that AI doesn't remember his case and response.
826 - Discussing whether town or scum is more likely to forget who voted them with Sir Chris.
- AI's responses about his case seem fake.
830 - Asks Meg what he wants him to respond to.
833 - More discussion with Sir Chris about scum/town being aware of who votes them.
836 - Asking Meg for clarification.
- Answers Chris's question about whether AI typically cares/tries. Says he hasn't played with him, but he cares as a mod.
838 - Responds to Seppel pointing out he said he would vote KJ but didn't.
840 - Defends against Seppel's attack on why he is still voting AI when he said he would vote KJ.
841 - Asks Meg why he needs to reread.
845 - Question about why Meg doesn't like him.
847 - Response to Meg. Says he is being a prat and his points are vague or wrong. They know each other.
852 - More back and forth with Meg.
862 - Says Meg should feel bad for not being willing to engage him while whining about activity.
- Responds to Iso about why he got emotional with Meg.
- Meg is making the game about himself which is annoying.
- Iso misjuding his anger for fear is disingenuous.
892 - Lol at Seppel linking him to KJ
- Questions Iso on calling AI and KJ scum, but pushing against the AI wagon and voting KJ.
945 - Questions Seppel on why his Meg discussion is avoiding KJ.
- Defends against dking.
- Reiterates his point why Seppel is playing different.
- Admits to playing a different town game, but says he has never played a scum game like this either and asks DK if he has seen a scum game like this from him.
- Explains the background as to why he was annoyed with Meg.
- DK is probably town.
- Finds the way Iso called him nervious a bit suspicious.
- Response to Iso about why his pushing KJ over AI was suspicious.
- Vote KJ
- Feeling a little better about AI.
- Seppel, Iso still scummy, watching Proph, Wildfire quieted down after suspicion was off him.
- Meg, Sir Chris, Sir Karn are town.
970 - Reply to Meg about discrediting his attack.
- Reply to Karn restating his reads and summarizing previous wall.
- Reply to Iso and clarification on AI getting better.
- More interaction with Seppel on his Meg > KJ push.
- Clarification on his "have you seen me play like this as scum" to DK from previous post.
1032 - Reply to Meg, says opinion is changing (was town)
- Argues Megs' point about the time commitment while moving.
- Question to Meg about what was scummy in his response to DK
- Response to Cythare about why he wouldn't have had the exchange with Meg if he were scum.
- Refutes Seppel's insinuation DC was panicked about KJ getting pressure.
- Resonse to Iso re:AI and DC's suspicion of him and Seppel.
1066 - Reply to dk about playing out of his meta.
- Refutes Seppel.
- Clarifying with Iso.
- Restates issues with KJ/Seppel/AI/Iso.
- Most suspicious is Seppel trying to link him to KJ, Iso avoiding AI wagon.
- Muddled view of Meg.
1101 - Reply to dC about his current views on AI/KJ and also disagrees with Wildfire.
- Thinks Rez seemed townish, but had a weird reply to Meg and needs to see more from him.
- More on Iso > not wanting to lynch KJ.
- Thought Iso's behavior was odd that he forgot what they were arguing about despite trying to undermine him earlier.
1111 - Vote AI
- Mentions having "fewer jibbles" with the people supporting it (as opposed to KJ wagon).
1123 - Is convinced Iso is scum.
- Says Iso logic is contradictory in making sure his opinion on KJ is heard and now not wanting to push DCIII further.
1161 - Response to Iso about previous post.
- DK is probably town.
- Frustraded with Meg and not sure if scum.
- Self meta, won't ATE as scum.
- Makes sure his vote is on AI.
1207 - Doesn't like Arian's post and finds him suspicious now.
- Explains why AI is the best wagon to Cythare.
1247 - Calls for the KJ wagon to disband and move to AI.
1267 - Asks Seppel for an Arian read.
- Responds to Wildfire about his change of heart on KJ.
- Doesn't like more of Iso language, pushing KJ for surface level stuff.
- AI has been doing nothing to solve the game.
1287 - Vote Iso quoting Rhand asking if it's too late to switch.
- Asks Seppel to clarify his read on Arian.
- Reply to LnG insinuating DC3's push on Iso is bad.
1352 - Asks Rhand about his post asking if it was too late to switch to Iso.
- Agrees with Meg shedding doubt on the KJ claim and why it must be good for town.
1408 - Clarifies his stance he believes KJ, Iso is scum, and the AI wagon is better than KJ.
1410 - Defends his position on voting Iso over AI/KJ when asked by AI.
- Asks AI to explain why he asked the above.
1417 - Naked Vote on AI
1418 - Questions Iso on defending AI if he thinks he's scum.
1467 - Asks Meg to clarify how DC forgot who he was voting.
- Reply to Iso re:surface level stuff.
- barns Rhand on AI's behavior being concerning.
- Says AI's reasoning for calling Rhand town while attacking a town-read player (Meg) doesn't add up with calling DC scum for voting Iso and calling it a distraction from the real wagons.
- Says LnG was defending Iso.
- Says Iso is distancing.
- Tells Karn to case AI and explain why he wants it over the KJ wagon.
1542 - KJ is more town for thinking he was hammered and not changing his tune.
- AI is stonewalling.
- Reiterates Iso has been calling KJ and AI scum, but refuses to switch to AI.
- AI, Iso, Lng are all scum.
- Prods Meg to answer outstanding question from last post.
1544 - Iso pushing Kam and me to just hammer KJ before catching up is scummy.
1545 - @Meg "Enough with the games." re: Meg not telling him what he sees as bad in his play.
1597 - Restates his reasons to Iso why he is scummy
- Gets on Iso for discrediting him and calling his play a garbage scum game.
- More at Iso being scummy and refuting his arguments on letting replacements catch up.
- Says he doesn't think the competing wagons are both scum.
- Asks Seppel why his read on him changed and asks for an Iso read. Also why his KJ read is sure now.
- KJ wagon is bad. Mostly "feels bad"
- AI is just doing nothing, KJ is questioning and analyzing/explaining.
1674 - Explains to Meg why Iso is scum.
AI had some back and forth with Iso in which he accused him of mudslinging and poor attacks, but coming from the guy on the receiving end, I would expect that. AI listed Iso as leaning town in his last t/s list, never actually cased Iso or called him scum, and didn't list him in his top two lynch options thing that he started. Also, he said this: Which I think says he was frustrated with Iso attacking him, but didn't really think he was scummy for it. When DC started calling Iso scum, AI did say it's possible and is even likely if KJ flips scum.
So, I wouldn't say AI was putting much pressure on Iso, and wasn't really in much of a position to garner any support anyway.
The other person I saw showing suspicion of Iso besides DCIII was KJ. And the only thing he did was list Iso along with AI as his top two lynch options when AI proposed everyone list their top two. There wasn't really any lead up to or explanation for including Iso other than saying Iso doesn't give reasoning for anything. He doesn't start to actually push Iso as scum until after DCIII makes it apparent he has been scum reading him. Like AI, KJ is coming from a place where he isn't going to get much support.
So basically, yes, Iso, I think my original point still stands. I think DCIII started pushing you on his own, or at the very least it doesn't seem like he was piggybacking on other people calling you scummy and taking an opportunistic shot. His development of his read on you seems genuine and with the AI and KJ wagons going on, I don't really see why he would have been pushing you as scum, especially considering he was tying it heavily to AI flipping scum. Sure there is WIFOM in that he could have thought the KJ wagon was already going through for sure and so he was trying to set up AI/Iso for toDay, but I just really don't think that's the case.
I originally said it was part of me town reading DCIII and I think it's even more so now that we have seen it play out for the most part.
_____________________________
The other reason I wanted to read DCIII is because I was town reading him the whole time I was following the game, but he started drawing some heat and I was wondering if I was missing something since I only skimmed some of his longer posts. I'm not going to quote posts here, and just summarized to save time since this probably isn't something that needs to be at the forefront of discussion now anyway, but if someone requests it, I can cite examples.
While at a glance some of his voting pattern in my notes was a little alarming, following up on it showed a logical and clear path to his reads. He engages people to get reads and his reads develop from those interactions. There was never a, "where did this come from?" moment. He also makes a lot of points that others don't, showing that they are original thoughts that he is developing and not just /barning off others.
He has also been very transparent in his thought processes. He fully explained why he reacted to Meg the way he did. He explained his reasoning for his reads multiple times when asked. I think in my summary there are like 3 or 4 times where I wrote that he had to reiterate or explain his case that he had already made. His reasoning is consistent for his reads and I never had a question as to why he was town/scum reading someone.
There is also just the gut feel of his posts for me. The way he explains things and interacts with people feels entirely genuine. Like, in my mind, he would have to be extremely good at faking a town mentality as scum.
Like I mentioned above, his push on Iso makes no sense as scum. Especially considering he totally backed off it toDay.
I guess if he is somehow scum, I'm buying what he is selling.
tl;dr - I have a strong town read on DCIII
- His push on Iso makes no sense as scum.
- His reads have clear development with lots of original points and engagement.
- He has been transparent in his thought processes.
- His posts feel genuine and show a town mentality.
_____________________________
I've been an ******** of a replacement and I apologize for that. I spent last night reading through D2 so I could participate in real time instead of playing from a perpetual state of catching up. I'm aware there are a couple questions people had for me, and things I wanted to comment on from the Day so I will get to those today, but feel free to engage me in the mean time.
T/S list from memory since I know that was one thing requested and is a good way to create talking points. Subject to change after I go back through the Day and reply to things.
Town
Hunger
Probably Town
DCIII - See above.
Meg - Trying to figure out the game and engaging with most players.
Wildfire - I said earlier, he is playing exactly like he has in the town games I have been in with him.
Iso - I have liked his play toDay. Seems to genuinely trying to figure out the game state/solve the game.
Lean Town
Rhand - He's being aggressive and analyzing which is my town Rhand. Granted I've only played one scum game with him and two town I think.
Kam - I think Iso is town and he thinks Kam wouldn't have given him what he did as scum.
Arian - Less scumhunting than DCIII, but has that same feel of genuineness and transparency I am seeing there.
dking - Seems to be analyzing things, scumhunting, and doesn't seem to be afraid to have contrary opinions.
?
Hans - None of his posts have stood out to me and have never played with him.
Proph - Like I said when I started the game, his posts have felt sort of fluffy and he seems to be very selective in what he addresses. Still would like to reread him though.
LnG - I didn't get the same scum feeling at first glance a lot of people are getting. Probably deserves a reread as well.
HP - No clue.
zombie - So lurky, don't remember having a high opinion of his posts, but not sure if the vote on Meg makes sense as scum or the don't hammer appeal at the end of the day when he was already lurking.
Lean Scum
Cythare - I don't recall ever getting a real town vibe from his posting and the fact he tried to push myself and zombie as lynch options for lurking before we posted toDay while plenty of other things are going on. I think someone else may have done this too. I think that was him at least, though I think someone else did it as well so I might be getting them confused. Will have to check on that. His whole thing with refusing to provide reasoning on reads is also weird.
dC - Lurky and the sheer number of self-aware apologizing and promising content posts is bad. Though I said the same thing about KJ and he flipped town. I thought the case on him was good.
Karn - He is in his "town meta" from what I see, which is infuriating, but his meta self-awareness makes me think it could be fake. Also, the game we just finished, Archer, KJ rode a town read for a couple Days based on the exact "town slip" that Karn is getting for not knowing Sir Chris was dead. I'm not buying it from a player of his repute, I think he is faking that for town cred since he just saw it happen in his last game. I mean the kills were on the same line a couple words apart. I also don't get the pointing to post counts without any context thing, seems weak.
Probably Scum
Seppel - Based mostly on the back of strong arguments from people that know him better/my town reads.
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I'd move Cythare into ? land for me at the moment considering I was wrong on this point.
Also, do you have any games you remember where you pushed a replacement based on the predecessors play before getting an actual read on the replacement? Seems off.
That's not easy to tell apart on mobile.
hansanator --> targeted Megiddo (succeeded)
Arianrhod --> targeted Prophylaxis (succeeded)
Cythare --> targeted Iso, was changed to DKings
Iso --> targeted Megiddo (motivator)
Sir Karn --> targeted Megiddo
LnGrrrR --> targeted Iso (Watch) (was redirected to Megiddo, Illuminates people who targeted his target)
KamikazeArchon (r. Niv) --> targeted Iso (Gift of anti-roleblock passive)
Wildfire393 --> didn't target anyone last night
dkingsland967 -- lightning rod (targets one player, draws to him)
AsianInvasion, Demernae's Force, found torn apart Night 1.
Sir Chris, Demernae's Passion, found dead but unmarked Night 1.
KamiArchon targeted Iso for gifting.
@Karn, where are you?
Re: Rhand's loss of vote, either he has some ability that costs vitality and a vote (meaning it would have to be a ridiculously strong ability) or he got voteblocked. Occam's Razor suggests the latter, so putting him into my lean town pile for now.
Arian feels open and honest, not holding anything back. Not familiar enough with dC to say whether his meta call is correct or not. Anyone else that knows desCourse well enough care to chime in?
Whoever mentioned that the Chris wagon was a counter to the Wildfire wagon gets town points.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
-Seppel: Cy, what are your scumreads?
-Me: Here is a list I made based on Iso's request to everyone
-Megiddo: There are no reasons.
-Me: Fine I'll give my reasons tomorrow.
-Me: Actually I won't be doing this.
-Kamikaze: What is taking you so long to provide your reasons?
I got angry at what I deemed loaded language. Have you ever not done something because you were frustrated?
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