You can't look me in the eyes and say with a straight face that the purpose of your post was to get more info out of cythare.
Admittedly I can't look you in the eyes, but I can say that was my intent, yes. Generally by applying pressure in a mafia game, in this case casting a negative light on past behavior, it is either with an intent to explore an avenue or to straight up murder someone. By saying I disliked the lack of information, I thought I made it clear I wanted said information. Also for the record it worked because he gave the opinion I wanted in the next post, but I guess I don't get anything for effectiveness.
DCIII with a vague, but ultimately sound vote on me. I mean voting me for things I've said is pretty fair.
@ Cythare
I didn't accuse of you stymieing conversation, but merely posting without any real intent. To me it is fairly easy to be against something in the early going in a mafia game. It isn't hard as scum to simply say "no, I disagree." What I look for in town play is not the disagreement, but the birth of new ideas and new direction. Creation is often something I give credit to town more than scum, simply because scum faking creating puts a burden on them. It isn't a 100% ratio either way, but I like to see it. I didn't see it in your post, and so I didn't like it. The roleblock thing may just be me misunderstanding how it would work against how I see roleblocks normally work, along with the way vitality works in the game. When I think of someone roleblocking themselves I think of their own roleblock failing, but maybe that's not how it'd jive here.
As for not voting, I am not much of an early voter. Never will be, either. I like to poke around and see what shakes loose.
"Are you always this defensive?"
I try to be. I have found that it does little good for a member of town to NOT be his own best advocate. No one here has any reason to assume I am town, if I cannot be bothered to discuss accusations and reason against them who will do so? Letting points pass me by is just a way for them to pile on and eventually crush me under their weight, even if they are ultimately flawed. You say defensive, I'd characterize it more as addressing statements about myself.
I am new to this site but have played mafia for over a decade, for whatever it may be worth to you guys. People in the last game seemed a bit mixed on how I play the game as well, I do things a bit strangely sometimes.
All I know so far is my method got the information I wanted and people don't seem to like it.
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Why are you leaving your RVS vote on Seppel when you think Cythare could be buddies with Sir Chris?
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@Proph - thoughts on AI's first post?
It's a mostly housekeeping post, and I think it's null. I do think that AI should post something not related to mechanics optimization/discussion soon, however.
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Some suspicion in Proph as well for attempting to do to Meg what Meg did to him in Winterfell by calling him out for ignoring him early. Think it's unlikely he'd think that tell would work on Meg since Meg was the one who thought he saw it initially in Proph and would be aware of it. Seems like posturing.
Vote: I would like to move to Alway Etteem, the Mirrored Domain.
killjoy, please explain post #14 to me.
I'll make a real post once I get a response.
If we lynch somneone there, but we're not very sure that he's scum (like, maybe they've been kinda scummy, but nothing too definitive, but they're the best choice, etc) then they can still talk, help analyze the wagon, etc. Also, scum nightkill targets can come back to life, so if they say, hit the cop... then the cop can still give his say. Like I said: safety net.
Vote Not to Move to Alway
I'm in the process of asking the mod this question: When on Alway, if a hypothetical roleblocker targeted someone, would the rebound roleblock prevent his targetted one from going through?
I feel like this is information we should all have. I suspect the answer will be no, though, so I don't think going there will be as hurtful to the scum as we all seem to think it is.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Anyways, while Wildfire's vote is structurally sound, I don't like that he seems to not consider the why.
So I'm going to let him figure out reasons why I wouldn't self-vote.
Note, this was not a super serious vote.
If you've got a real reason for breaking with your own tradition (and it sounds like you do, and I've got an inkling of what it is), then unvote.
Chris is new to these boards, but he's a very experienced player from the Gamefaqs boards. His only game here was Castlevania, and his town game was a bit weird there. I was convinced he was scum, 100%, right up until the point where he was Night-killed.
Why do you consider Hooker's not self-voting scummy, but not Niv's RVS posting, given that he doesn't normally do it?
I have less meta with Niv. I've had two previous games with HP, and I've only got one with Niv and I replaced in after RVS. But now that you mention it, it does seem out of character for him.
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Oh, and @Killjoy, re: Alaway
I'm not sure how useful Alaway will be in combating Roleblockers (it will depend on the answer you get, I suppose), but I can see several other PRs it would be very helpful for.
Like Doctor. Saving the target and himself? That's busted good.
Watcher, likewise, seems very strong, as you can Watch two different people. If someone gets killed on Alaway and flips Watcher, we can move to the Halls of the Dead and have him tell us who targeted him that night.
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I considered both of those. And those are the only two I came up with as beneficial for Alway.
Doesn't stop roleblockers, btw.
Another problem with Alway is that if someone uses a Vitality modifying ability of any kind, it gets thrown back at them.. which is fine except then it alerts all of us that it happened, and helps narrow down who did it. I do not want scum having that information if we can avoid it. Especially this early in the game.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Oh, and @Killjoy, re: Alaway
I'm not sure how useful Alaway will be in combating Roleblockers (it will depend on the answer you get, I suppose), but I can see several other PRs it would be very helpful for.
Like Doctor. Saving the target and himself? That's busted good.
Watcher, likewise, seems very strong, as you can Watch two different people. If someone gets killed on Alaway and flips Watcher, we can move to the Halls of the Dead and have him tell us who targeted him that night.
I find it hard to believe that there isn't some kind of counterbalance in place with Alaway to stop the town from accruing a massive advantage at the start of the game by sitting there.
Vote Against Moving for now. I agree with Cythare: moving this early in the Day seems loose.
Can you think of any roles that would be detrimental to town if either Town or Scum possessed them?
The counterbalance, Arian, is that we don't know if we have any of those roles. Heck, if the roles are in the game at all, there's a chance that the scum team has them. Roles were randomized among the players.
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My early game scumfinding skills are questionable at best. Mechanical discussion gives me something relevant in-game to talk about with people to generate enough content to really analyze.
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As far as scumhunting thoughts go so far:
I'm definitely not liking Niv's uncharacteristic behavior
The people opposing the move to Alaway are making my suspicious as well. Not wanting to lock in a move this early is one thing, but Arian's fearmongering definitely has me raising an eyebrow.
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@Chris - Why would you call my vote sound and fair without asking for more detail?
@Proph - if I'm wrong, then what did you see as the benefit of taking that angle with Meg?
Was thinking this was par for the course Wildfire until #57 and #66. Didn't notice Niv's behavior was uncharacteristic, was asked about why he'd pressure HP and not Niv. Backs off HP for reasons it's unlikely he wouldn't have considered prior to the vote (and also says both that the vote wasn't super serious but that his vote was because he saw something suspicious and voted it), then reiterates suspicion on Niv for "uncharacteristic behavior" which had been pointed out to him - feels like he's trying to put focus on it now because he realizes the inconsistency from earlier.
I didn't notice niv's behavior was uncharacteristic because I've only played one game with him and I replaced in after RVS was over. So Niv's opening post didn't register as weird to me. When someone pointed it out, I recalled that Niv regularly draws flak for self-voting in RVS. So I looked closer at it, and yeah, it's suspicious.
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I like Sir Chris's defense of himself. Part of that is because I think the whole "town are care and fancy free!" thing is BS. Town points for Sir Chris.
@DC3/Megiddo/Proph, can any of you explain the Wintertell thing DC3 is referring to?
@Wildfire, IIoA is "information instead of analysis".
For those who don't want to go to Alaway, I would like to hear the reasoning. If it's "I would like a claim first", then state that outright. "It's too early" is a poor reason.
@Killjoy, your reasoning for not going to the Mirrored Domain is because a roleblocking scum wouldn't be blocked himself. Meaning that he would just has his normal roleblock. So it would be like moving to ANY OTHER WORLD. So do you have another reason?
@Chris - Why would you call my vote sound and fair without asking for more detail?
@Proph - if I'm wrong, then what did you see as the benefit of taking that angle with Meg?
Was thinking this was par for the course Wildfire until #57 and #66. Didn't notice Niv's behavior was uncharacteristic, was asked about why he'd pressure HP and not Niv. Backs off HP for reasons it's unlikely he wouldn't have considered prior to the vote (and also says both that the vote wasn't super serious but that his vote was because he saw something suspicious and voted it), then reiterates suspicion on Niv for "uncharacteristic behavior" which had been pointed out to him - feels like he's trying to put focus on it now because he realizes the inconsistency from earlier.
I was being cheeky.
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I am going to hazard his point is that time passed is not as valuable a tool as benchmarks set. Time can have varied value in the game of mafia and thus the reasoning is on shaky ground. But if you want an event to pass before making a decision, it makes everything much more clear and defined.
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Okay... so Proph is voting me for giving information instead of analysis in my first post. When there were 5 posts before mine and the only parts of those that weren't completely-random RVS were the proposals to move?
Not liking Seppel jumping on my wagon with full conviction but no reasoning of his own.
LnG's seeming very reasonable.
Chris seems like himself, but I haven't seen his scumgame.
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For those who don't want to go to Alaway, I would like to hear the reasoning. If it's "I would like a claim first", then state that outright. "It's too early" is a poor reason.
I wouldn't mind a mass-claim but I doubt that's a popular sentiment. (For anyone who wasn't in the game, it worked pretty well for us in Grim Batol.)
I don't consider Niv's opening post scummy and encourage someone to elaborate as to why I should.
As far as scumhunting thoughts go so far:
I'm definitely not liking Niv's uncharacteristic behavior
The people opposing the move to Alaway are making my suspicious as well. Not wanting to lock in a move this early is one thing, but Arian's fearmongering definitely has me raising an eyebrow.
No fearmongering here.
If you want to talk mechanics, let's talk mechanics:
There are 6 planes, effectively 5.
First Halls will disappear after ToDay. It starts with 6 hp (just going to abbreviate vitality as hp for my sanity while typing), and loses 6 hp at the end of the day, which will send it to 0 and us spiraling through the aether randomly (and at a cost of 25% hp each).
Therefore, we obviously have to move somewhere.
Ruchperion has an powerful ability. It loses 8 hp per day/night cycle. If we do nothing, Ruchperion will disappear in fairly soon (17 tomorrow, 9 day 2, 1 day 3, dead Night 4). Depending on how much hp the lynch has, if we lynch D1 on Ruchperion, we could conceivably double that plane's lifespan. However, this will only be at maximum efficiency if done on D1, before we start losing hp. The plane does nothing else -- my read on its existence is that Ruchperion is supposed to be one of the last remaining planes left for the game to continue on -- kind of an emergency backup plane. If we never visit it, however, it cannot be fulfill this purpose and will fade away long before we hit endgame barring a lot of killing roles.
Gundhiya and Alway are mirrored in terms of hp -- they both have 20 at start and lose 2 per phase change. 18 d2 16 n2 14d3 12 n3 10 d4 8 n4 6d5 4 n5 2 d6 0 n6. Both of these planes will expire Night 6. There is no built-in mechanic to give them more hp as with Ruchperion, so we have to assume that we have access for only that long. Gundhiya looks like it's designed as a counter to a role(s), or could just be a red herring. As far as I'm concerned, until such time as we have more information, Gundhiya is a vanilla plane and does nothing for us.
Alway is an odd plane to think about. The question of roleblocking was already brought up. Cops, trackers, etc are irrelevant if mirrored. It does specifiy "non-killing." I wonder if something like a Poisoner type role would mirror -- if that would be counted as killing or not. I guess probably? Like, I'm thinking through various roles that I've either put into my setups or experienced in games and I'm having a hard time coming up with the problem with Alway. Like, what's stopping us from just sitting on Alway until it blows up at the end of D6? I can't imagine that that's an intentional design -- especially not in a Zinda game -- and therefore there must be a problem with it that we're not seeing. I wouldn't say that I'm 'fearmongering' regarding Alway so much as urging caution. We don't have the information to judge the correct move at this point -- I don't see what moving RIGHT NOW buys us that waiting until closer to the end of the Day wouldn't accomplish better.
Oberos is peculiar. At 15hp: 13d1 11n1 9d2 7n2 5d3 3n3 1d4 0n4 -- Oberos will die at the same time as a non-interacted Ruchperion. We only have access to it through D4. Since its ability triggers off abilities being used, we -actually- only have access to it through D3. If I'm reading it correctly, Oberos basically turns everyone with a targeted ability into a delayed roleblocker. Oberos would probably be smart to visit on D3 so that we can use our abilities N3 to lock down perceived suspects N4. I see no reason to go to this plane before D3 -- but on D3, we should have enough information to make our stay there damaging for scum.
That leaves Ghostland, which has a monstrous 25 hp pool with a 2/drain: 23d1 21n1 19d2 17n2 15d3 13n3 11d4 9n4 7d5 5n5 3d6 1n6 0d7 -- Ghostland dies at the end of Day 7 before Night 7. Ghostland will expire the Day after Gundhiya and Alway. Barring Ruchperion shenanigans, Ghostland is the longest-lived plane. That being said, for us to sit on Ghostland, we would have to each have an effective personal hp pool of 39 (if my math is correct), because the plane drains us for 3 each phase. That's also barring any abilities which influence hp, which likely exist. Ghostland's ability is insane, though. Assuming that this game is normal reveal (which I guess we won't know until the first lynch), Ghostland allows for confirmed town postings. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, if the game IS normal reveal, it is very likely that scum have daychat.
Ghostland is a contender for our second travel, in my opinion. There's no point in traveling there toDay, but if we wanted to have the thoughts of lynch+nightkill, we could pay 6 hp/head to have them. I don't think that we want to spend more than 2 Days over the course of the game on Ghostland, though, because the hp cost will add up too much. It's also worth considering that I -believe- Ghostland will allow scum to talk even if they don't have daychat -- the rules text on it only states that "dead players may post" and does not define where they might post. I'm guessing that this would also re-enable any hypothetical masons. I'm pretty sure that the benefit we'll get from having confirmed town thoughts (assuming normal reveal) outweighs the benefit that the scum would get from having their dead players interacting again, but it's worth remembering.
So, in my book the main decision is between Ruchperion and Alway.
Ruchperion is a vanilla plane, but it's pretty safe even if it does decay fairly quickly. We could very easily keep Ruchperion around for quite a while by moving there toDay (Ruchperion would absorb the hp from the lynch -and- the nightkill). If Ruchperion got, say, 15 hp from each lynch+nk, it would expire at the end of Day 7, if my math is correct. This is at the same time as Ghostland. However, if we -do not- travel to Ruchperion toNight, and the plane receives a lesser amount of hp (even if we travel there later), Ruchperion will likely not outlast Ghostland and we will be forced to exist on Ghostland, which will be very painful to endgame players and could result in deaths by hp loss. It also means the game will hard end by Night 7, regardless of the status of the game (which, in a 22 player game, I'm skeptical that it'll end by then).
It occurs to me that this is likely the opportunity cost of Alway. Alway as a plane -is- superior to most of the other options, but it comes at the cost of time as a resource. If we go to Alway toDay, we might well get an advantage from it -- but then that's 2 kills that Ruchperion doesn't absorb and likely 1-2 Days of time that we're losing. Furthermore, each future Night that we do not go to Ruchperion is more time we're losing, AND is increasingly likely because as the game progresses, Oberos and Ghostland become more attractive to visit, which makes us even less likely to go to Ruchperion.
I propose this as the optimal order of visitation:
Swapping between Ghostland and Ruchperion both as we feel we can while keeping an eye on our hp and per pending the need / discovered benefit (or lack thereof) of the dead speakers.
I see no reason at this time to ever go to Gundhiya. If the need arises, then we can adjust later.
Note that I would still rather not lock in the move this early in the Day. I believe the best time to lock in a move is after the first lynch wagon claims at l-2. That way we at least have some information to work with, but we're also protected from the Day ending too quickly / in the rush of people thinking about the lynch.
-------------
With that out of the way, I have two questions:
@Sir Chris: how much experience do you have? @Cythare: have you ever played with Sir Chris before?
Arian makes some excellent points about the locations, so I agree that moving to Ruchperion on D1 would probably help us out the most in the long run.
@Arian- regarding your proposed order of visitations, why not travel to Alway on D5 to get one more use out of it before it goes away. I don't really see a benefit to staying on Ghostland for two days in a row, unless an information role flipped between the two days. Aside from that, I agree with the rest of your plan.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
I didn't accuse of you stymieing conversation, but merely posting without any real intent. To me it is fairly easy to be against something in the early going in a mafia game. It isn't hard as scum to simply say "no, I disagree." What I look for in town play is not the disagreement, but the birth of new ideas and new direction. Creation is often something I give credit to town more than scum, simply because scum faking creating puts a burden on them. It isn't a 100% ratio either way, but I like to see it. I didn't see it in your post, and so I didn't like it. The roleblock thing may just be me misunderstanding how it would work against how I see roleblocks normally work, along with the way vitality works in the game. When I think of someone roleblocking themselves I think of their own roleblock failing, but maybe that's not how it'd jive here.
But I did post with intent, and my intent was clear - I don't want to lock in a move now. You are correct that it is easy to just say "no, I disagree", but it's similarly easy to just say "yes, I agree". The fact that you seem to find it scummy because I disagree just makes no sense to me. I didn't "birth new ideas/direction" on this topic because it was more important to me to bring up the issue with locking in now. Besides, scum can hide in discussion of public mechanics regardless of their position on the matter.
For those who don't want to go to Alaway, I would like to hear the reasoning. If it's "I would like a claim first", then state that outright. "It's too early" is a poor reason.
How is "it's too early" a poor reason? As I stated before, I'm not opposed to going to Alaway, and would potentially be up for it later in the Day. I'm opposed to locking something in during the first ~24 hours of the Day. I just want the opportunity for other things to potentially unfold first - not necessarily a claim, but there may be other things that could happen during the Day, be it Day abilities or just red flags from discussion that might warrant review of where we'd want to move. I just don't see the rush.
The mass claim thing was in response to AsianInvasion, who said he was in favor of it.
That's quite the post from Arian on planes, and I feel like his (her?) analysis is likely correct. I have to look at how long the game is likely to last though to determine the worth of giving up Alaway tonight in return for feeding Ruchperion.
With 21 players, I assume we have something like 5 scum. That means that, barring a skillful vigilante, the earliest we could end the game would be day 5. Realistically, it is more likely to be day 6 or 7.
Actually, I've never played a game with more than 12-13 players. Is my assumption correct? I think usually the goal is for scum to get 3 successful mislynches to win. 3 mislynch + 3 NK brings us down to 15 people, which still leaves us a few lynches shy of LyLo. So it's possible there's 6 or maybe even 7 scum?
Unless we assume that there's a SK-type role, like there was in Seasons. With two kills per night, 3 mislynches brings us down to 12 people, which is LyLo with 5 scum and game over with 6.
I'd say 5 scum + SK is likely the setup. That means the game is likely to last probably 7-8 days.
So yeah, maybe we do need to feed Ruchperion tonight.
Vote not to travel to Alaway
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Also, a mass claim seems like a bad idea. Given that the roles are randomized between alignments, all we're doing is giving the scum free information.
Given the large amount of public information, coordinating actions to correspond to Vitality seems like a reasonable idea. I'm not gonna push it but I think it's worth considering.
@Wildire: Two players with a fair amount of clout between them are convinced that you are scum. You ignore them. Why?
@Asian: I don't believe I've ignored anyone who's called me scum. I asked Proph and Megiddo questions about their reasoning. Seppel... posted no reasoning, which I pointed out seems suspicious.
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Arian makes some excellent points about the locations, so I agree that moving to Ruchperion on D1 would probably help us out the most in the long run.
@Arian- regarding your proposed order of visitations, why not travel to Alway on D5 to get one more use out of it before it goes away. I don't really see a benefit to staying on Ghostland for two days in a row, unless an information role flipped between the two days. Aside from that, I agree with the rest of your plan.
We could certainly do that. It'll just be a matter of what the game state looks like at that time, honestly.
@Asian: I don't believe I've ignored anyone who's called me scum. I asked Proph and Megiddo questions about their reasoning. Seppel... posted no reasoning, which I pointed out seems suspicious.
that's +town for seppel btw.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Note, this was not a super serious vote.
If you've got a real reason for breaking with your own tradition (and it sounds like you do, and I've got an inkling of what it is), then unvote.
This is textbook backpedalling.
Quote from Wildfire »
As for the HP vote, it was still RVS at that point. I saw something suspicious and I voted it. How is that terrible?
How is not sticking to your usual RVS behavior and pointing it out scummy?
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@proph: I'm sad that you didn't even try and figure out my reads, especially since I've been really obvious about most of them.
Sorry, man. Can you answer my question?
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I like how 9/10ths of wildfire's content is discussing game mechanics instead of scum hunting.
I agree with this, however.
Quote from Wildfire »
What?
As far as scumhunting thoughts go so far:
I'm definitely not liking Niv's uncharacteristic behavior
The people opposing the move to Alaway are making my suspicious as well. Not wanting to lock in a move this early is one thing, but Arian's fearmongering definitely has me raising an eyebrow.
If you don't like Niv's uncharacteristic behavior and you don't like Arian's fearmongering, why aren't you voting for either of them?
Quote from DCIII »
@Proph - if I'm wrong, then what did you see as the benefit of taking that angle with Meg?
I'm using Meg (as well as a few others) as my stakeposts this game.
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@DC3/Megiddo/Proph, can any of you explain the Wintertell thing DC3 is referring to?
Just read the first couple of pages of Winterfell Mafia, where Meg railed me all through Day 1 for ignoring him in RVS.
I don't understand why we're talking about massclaims when it says in the OP that modgaming, early massclaiming, and flavorgaming will be detrimental for us.
Quote from Wildfire »
Unless we assume that there's a SK-type role, like there was in Seasons. With two kills per night, 3 mislynches brings us down to 12 people, which is LyLo with 5 scum and game over with 6.
I'd say 5 scum + SK is likely the setup. That means the game is likely to last probably 7-8 days.
Also, I'm not the SK, I'm just assuming there is one because with one kill per night I'm pretty sure we all drop dead from vitality exhaustion or all of the worlds blowing up before we can possibly end the game in one way or the other.
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That was specifically in regards to his last comment, the "first person to mention the SK". Doesn't the rest of that saying go "... is probably the SK"?
But the entirety of his case seems to be attacking me over an RVS vote. I don't get it.
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Either way, we're all gonna burn
Admittedly I can't look you in the eyes, but I can say that was my intent, yes. Generally by applying pressure in a mafia game, in this case casting a negative light on past behavior, it is either with an intent to explore an avenue or to straight up murder someone. By saying I disliked the lack of information, I thought I made it clear I wanted said information. Also for the record it worked because he gave the opinion I wanted in the next post, but I guess I don't get anything for effectiveness.
DCIII with a vague, but ultimately sound vote on me. I mean voting me for things I've said is pretty fair.
@ Cythare
I didn't accuse of you stymieing conversation, but merely posting without any real intent. To me it is fairly easy to be against something in the early going in a mafia game. It isn't hard as scum to simply say "no, I disagree." What I look for in town play is not the disagreement, but the birth of new ideas and new direction. Creation is often something I give credit to town more than scum, simply because scum faking creating puts a burden on them. It isn't a 100% ratio either way, but I like to see it. I didn't see it in your post, and so I didn't like it. The roleblock thing may just be me misunderstanding how it would work against how I see roleblocks normally work, along with the way vitality works in the game. When I think of someone roleblocking themselves I think of their own roleblock failing, but maybe that's not how it'd jive here.
As for not voting, I am not much of an early voter. Never will be, either. I like to poke around and see what shakes loose.
"Are you always this defensive?"
I try to be. I have found that it does little good for a member of town to NOT be his own best advocate. No one here has any reason to assume I am town, if I cannot be bothered to discuss accusations and reason against them who will do so? Letting points pass me by is just a way for them to pile on and eventually crush me under their weight, even if they are ultimately flawed. You say defensive, I'd characterize it more as addressing statements about myself.
I am new to this site but have played mafia for over a decade, for whatever it may be worth to you guys. People in the last game seemed a bit mixed on how I play the game as well, I do things a bit strangely sometimes.
All I know so far is my method got the information I wanted and people don't seem to like it.
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killjoy, please explain post #14 to me.
I'll make a real post once I get a response.
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Vote: Against
Your first post was IIoA, and your explanation for not going to Ruchperion was overexplanatory.
In addition:
Your vote on Natirasha is also terrible.
idk
Why are you leaving your RVS vote on Seppel when you think Cythare could be buddies with Sir Chris?
It's a mostly housekeeping post, and I think it's null. I do think that AI should post something not related to mechanics optimization/discussion soon, however.
You're wrong.
Why do you consider Hooker's not self-voting scummy, but not Niv's RVS posting, given that he doesn't normally do it?
If we lynch somneone there, but we're not very sure that he's scum (like, maybe they've been kinda scummy, but nothing too definitive, but they're the best choice, etc) then they can still talk, help analyze the wagon, etc. Also, scum nightkill targets can come back to life, so if they say, hit the cop... then the cop can still give his say. Like I said: safety net.
Vote Not to Move to Alway
I'm in the process of asking the mod this question: When on Alway, if a hypothetical roleblocker targeted someone, would the rebound roleblock prevent his targetted one from going through?
I feel like this is information we should all have. I suspect the answer will be no, though, so I don't think going there will be as hurtful to the scum as we all seem to think it is.
Note, this was not a super serious vote.
If you've got a real reason for breaking with your own tradition (and it sounds like you do, and I've got an inkling of what it is), then unvote.
Chris is new to these boards, but he's a very experienced player from the Gamefaqs boards. His only game here was Castlevania, and his town game was a bit weird there. I was convinced he was scum, 100%, right up until the point where he was Night-killed.
I'm pretty sure the roles were randomized, so good luck with that.
What is IIoA?
Also, I love complex mechanics and the discussions thereof.
As for the HP vote, it was still RVS at that point. I saw something suspicious and I voted it. How is that terrible?
I have less meta with Niv. I've had two previous games with HP, and I've only got one with Niv and I replaced in after RVS. But now that you mention it, it does seem out of character for him.
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I'm not sure how useful Alaway will be in combating Roleblockers (it will depend on the answer you get, I suppose), but I can see several other PRs it would be very helpful for.
Like Doctor. Saving the target and himself? That's busted good.
Watcher, likewise, seems very strong, as you can Watch two different people. If someone gets killed on Alaway and flips Watcher, we can move to the Halls of the Dead and have him tell us who targeted him that night.
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Doesn't stop roleblockers, btw.
Another problem with Alway is that if someone uses a Vitality modifying ability of any kind, it gets thrown back at them.. which is fine except then it alerts all of us that it happened, and helps narrow down who did it. I do not want scum having that information if we can avoid it. Especially this early in the game.
I find it hard to believe that there isn't some kind of counterbalance in place with Alaway to stop the town from accruing a massive advantage at the start of the game by sitting there.
Vote Against Moving for now. I agree with Cythare: moving this early in the Day seems loose.
The counterbalance, Arian, is that we don't know if we have any of those roles. Heck, if the roles are in the game at all, there's a chance that the scum team has them. Roles were randomized among the players.
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As far as scumhunting thoughts go so far:
I'm definitely not liking Niv's uncharacteristic behavior
The people opposing the move to Alaway are making my suspicious as well. Not wanting to lock in a move this early is one thing, but Arian's fearmongering definitely has me raising an eyebrow.
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@Proph - if I'm wrong, then what did you see as the benefit of taking that angle with Meg?
Was thinking this was par for the course Wildfire until #57 and #66. Didn't notice Niv's behavior was uncharacteristic, was asked about why he'd pressure HP and not Niv. Backs off HP for reasons it's unlikely he wouldn't have considered prior to the vote (and also says both that the vote wasn't super serious but that his vote was because he saw something suspicious and voted it), then reiterates suspicion on Niv for "uncharacteristic behavior" which had been pointed out to him - feels like he's trying to put focus on it now because he realizes the inconsistency from earlier.
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Day 2 please.
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@DC3/Megiddo/Proph, can any of you explain the Wintertell thing DC3 is referring to?
@Wildfire, IIoA is "information instead of analysis".
For those who don't want to go to Alaway, I would like to hear the reasoning. If it's "I would like a claim first", then state that outright. "It's too early" is a poor reason.
@Killjoy, your reasoning for not going to the Mirrored Domain is because a roleblocking scum wouldn't be blocked himself. Meaning that he would just has his normal roleblock. So it would be like moving to ANY OTHER WORLD. So do you have another reason?
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Not liking Seppel jumping on my wagon with full conviction but no reasoning of his own.
LnG's seeming very reasonable.
Chris seems like himself, but I haven't seen his scumgame.
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I wouldn't mind a mass-claim but I doubt that's a popular sentiment. (For anyone who wasn't in the game, it worked pretty well for us in Grim Batol.)
I don't consider Niv's opening post scummy and encourage someone to elaborate as to why I should.
@Asian: Niv apparently always votes himself in his first post, and claims to hate RVS.
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No fearmongering here.
If you want to talk mechanics, let's talk mechanics:
There are 6 planes, effectively 5.
First Halls will disappear after ToDay. It starts with 6 hp (just going to abbreviate vitality as hp for my sanity while typing), and loses 6 hp at the end of the day, which will send it to 0 and us spiraling through the aether randomly (and at a cost of 25% hp each).
Therefore, we obviously have to move somewhere.
Ruchperion has an powerful ability. It loses 8 hp per day/night cycle. If we do nothing, Ruchperion will disappear in fairly soon (17 tomorrow, 9 day 2, 1 day 3, dead Night 4). Depending on how much hp the lynch has, if we lynch D1 on Ruchperion, we could conceivably double that plane's lifespan. However, this will only be at maximum efficiency if done on D1, before we start losing hp. The plane does nothing else -- my read on its existence is that Ruchperion is supposed to be one of the last remaining planes left for the game to continue on -- kind of an emergency backup plane. If we never visit it, however, it cannot be fulfill this purpose and will fade away long before we hit endgame barring a lot of killing roles.
Gundhiya and Alway are mirrored in terms of hp -- they both have 20 at start and lose 2 per phase change. 18 d2 16 n2 14d3 12 n3 10 d4 8 n4 6d5 4 n5 2 d6 0 n6. Both of these planes will expire Night 6. There is no built-in mechanic to give them more hp as with Ruchperion, so we have to assume that we have access for only that long. Gundhiya looks like it's designed as a counter to a role(s), or could just be a red herring. As far as I'm concerned, until such time as we have more information, Gundhiya is a vanilla plane and does nothing for us.
Alway is an odd plane to think about. The question of roleblocking was already brought up. Cops, trackers, etc are irrelevant if mirrored. It does specifiy "non-killing." I wonder if something like a Poisoner type role would mirror -- if that would be counted as killing or not. I guess probably? Like, I'm thinking through various roles that I've either put into my setups or experienced in games and I'm having a hard time coming up with the problem with Alway. Like, what's stopping us from just sitting on Alway until it blows up at the end of D6? I can't imagine that that's an intentional design -- especially not in a Zinda game -- and therefore there must be a problem with it that we're not seeing. I wouldn't say that I'm 'fearmongering' regarding Alway so much as urging caution. We don't have the information to judge the correct move at this point -- I don't see what moving RIGHT NOW buys us that waiting until closer to the end of the Day wouldn't accomplish better.
Oberos is peculiar. At 15hp: 13d1 11n1 9d2 7n2 5d3 3n3 1d4 0n4 -- Oberos will die at the same time as a non-interacted Ruchperion. We only have access to it through D4. Since its ability triggers off abilities being used, we -actually- only have access to it through D3. If I'm reading it correctly, Oberos basically turns everyone with a targeted ability into a delayed roleblocker. Oberos would probably be smart to visit on D3 so that we can use our abilities N3 to lock down perceived suspects N4. I see no reason to go to this plane before D3 -- but on D3, we should have enough information to make our stay there damaging for scum.
That leaves Ghostland, which has a monstrous 25 hp pool with a 2/drain: 23d1 21n1 19d2 17n2 15d3 13n3 11d4 9n4 7d5 5n5 3d6 1n6 0d7 -- Ghostland dies at the end of Day 7 before Night 7. Ghostland will expire the Day after Gundhiya and Alway. Barring Ruchperion shenanigans, Ghostland is the longest-lived plane. That being said, for us to sit on Ghostland, we would have to each have an effective personal hp pool of 39 (if my math is correct), because the plane drains us for 3 each phase. That's also barring any abilities which influence hp, which likely exist. Ghostland's ability is insane, though. Assuming that this game is normal reveal (which I guess we won't know until the first lynch), Ghostland allows for confirmed town postings. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, if the game IS normal reveal, it is very likely that scum have daychat.
Ghostland is a contender for our second travel, in my opinion. There's no point in traveling there toDay, but if we wanted to have the thoughts of lynch+nightkill, we could pay 6 hp/head to have them. I don't think that we want to spend more than 2 Days over the course of the game on Ghostland, though, because the hp cost will add up too much. It's also worth considering that I -believe- Ghostland will allow scum to talk even if they don't have daychat -- the rules text on it only states that "dead players may post" and does not define where they might post. I'm guessing that this would also re-enable any hypothetical masons. I'm pretty sure that the benefit we'll get from having confirmed town thoughts (assuming normal reveal) outweighs the benefit that the scum would get from having their dead players interacting again, but it's worth remembering.
So, in my book the main decision is between Ruchperion and Alway.
Ruchperion is a vanilla plane, but it's pretty safe even if it does decay fairly quickly. We could very easily keep Ruchperion around for quite a while by moving there toDay (Ruchperion would absorb the hp from the lynch -and- the nightkill). If Ruchperion got, say, 15 hp from each lynch+nk, it would expire at the end of Day 7, if my math is correct. This is at the same time as Ghostland. However, if we -do not- travel to Ruchperion toNight, and the plane receives a lesser amount of hp (even if we travel there later), Ruchperion will likely not outlast Ghostland and we will be forced to exist on Ghostland, which will be very painful to endgame players and could result in deaths by hp loss. It also means the game will hard end by Night 7, regardless of the status of the game (which, in a 22 player game, I'm skeptical that it'll end by then).
It occurs to me that this is likely the opportunity cost of Alway. Alway as a plane -is- superior to most of the other options, but it comes at the cost of time as a resource. If we go to Alway toDay, we might well get an advantage from it -- but then that's 2 kills that Ruchperion doesn't absorb and likely 1-2 Days of time that we're losing. Furthermore, each future Night that we do not go to Ruchperion is more time we're losing, AND is increasingly likely because as the game progresses, Oberos and Ghostland become more attractive to visit, which makes us even less likely to go to Ruchperion.
I propose this as the optimal order of visitation:
d1 Ruchperion -> d2 Alway -> d3 Oberos -> d4 Ghostland -> d5 Ghostland/Ruchperion -> d6 Ghostland/Ruchperion -> d7+ Ruchperion
Swapping between Ghostland and Ruchperion both as we feel we can while keeping an eye on our hp and per pending the need / discovered benefit (or lack thereof) of the dead speakers.
I see no reason at this time to ever go to Gundhiya. If the need arises, then we can adjust later.
Note that I would still rather not lock in the move this early in the Day. I believe the best time to lock in a move is after the first lynch wagon claims at l-2. That way we at least have some information to work with, but we're also protected from the Day ending too quickly / in the rush of people thinking about the lynch.
-------------
With that out of the way, I have two questions:
@Sir Chris: how much experience do you have?
@Cythare: have you ever played with Sir Chris before?
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Preview edit: not in favor of a D1 massclaim.
I'm against mass claim at this point.
Arian makes some excellent points about the locations, so I agree that moving to Ruchperion on D1 would probably help us out the most in the long run.
@Arian- regarding your proposed order of visitations, why not travel to Alway on D5 to get one more use out of it before it goes away. I don't really see a benefit to staying on Ghostland for two days in a row, unless an information role flipped between the two days. Aside from that, I agree with the rest of your plan.
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But I did post with intent, and my intent was clear - I don't want to lock in a move now. You are correct that it is easy to just say "no, I disagree", but it's similarly easy to just say "yes, I agree". The fact that you seem to find it scummy because I disagree just makes no sense to me. I didn't "birth new ideas/direction" on this topic because it was more important to me to bring up the issue with locking in now. Besides, scum can hide in discussion of public mechanics regardless of their position on the matter.
How is "it's too early" a poor reason? As I stated before, I'm not opposed to going to Alaway, and would potentially be up for it later in the Day. I'm opposed to locking something in during the first ~24 hours of the Day. I just want the opportunity for other things to potentially unfold first - not necessarily a claim, but there may be other things that could happen during the Day, be it Day abilities or just red flags from discussion that might warrant review of where we'd want to move. I just don't see the rush.
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That's quite the post from Arian on planes, and I feel like his (her?) analysis is likely correct. I have to look at how long the game is likely to last though to determine the worth of giving up Alaway tonight in return for feeding Ruchperion.
With 21 players, I assume we have something like 5 scum. That means that, barring a skillful vigilante, the earliest we could end the game would be day 5. Realistically, it is more likely to be day 6 or 7.
Actually, I've never played a game with more than 12-13 players. Is my assumption correct? I think usually the goal is for scum to get 3 successful mislynches to win. 3 mislynch + 3 NK brings us down to 15 people, which still leaves us a few lynches shy of LyLo. So it's possible there's 6 or maybe even 7 scum?
Unless we assume that there's a SK-type role, like there was in Seasons. With two kills per night, 3 mislynches brings us down to 12 people, which is LyLo with 5 scum and game over with 6.
I'd say 5 scum + SK is likely the setup. That means the game is likely to last probably 7-8 days.
So yeah, maybe we do need to feed Ruchperion tonight.
Vote not to travel to Alaway
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Yeah, I'm not convinced.
Given the large amount of public information, coordinating actions to correspond to Vitality seems like a reasonable idea. I'm not gonna push it but I think it's worth considering.
@Wildire: Two players with a fair amount of clout between them are convinced that you are scum. You ignore them. Why?
@Mod, what happens if the game ends due to a lack of viable worlds? Everyone dies and it ends up a draw?
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We could certainly do that. It'll just be a matter of what the game state looks like at that time, honestly.
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I wanna go
I wanna go to ruchperion
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Enough people want to wait for later, and I don't want the mechanics discussion taking up too much time.
Cythare, Sir Chris's answer was pretty much what I was getting at.
Still want an explanation of that Wintertell thing.
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This is textbook backpedalling.
How is not sticking to your usual RVS behavior and pointing it out scummy?
Sorry, man. Can you answer my question?
I agree with this, however.
If you don't like Niv's uncharacteristic behavior and you don't like Arian's fearmongering, why aren't you voting for either of them?
I'm using Meg (as well as a few others) as my stakeposts this game.
Just read the first couple of pages of Winterfell Mafia, where Meg railed me all through Day 1 for ignoring him in RVS.
I don't understand why we're talking about massclaims when it says in the OP that modgaming, early massclaiming, and flavorgaming will be detrimental for us.
First person to mention the SK.
I am V/LA. Will try to catch up but probably won't be able to before the 24th.
Also, I'm not the SK, I'm just assuming there is one because with one kill per night I'm pretty sure we all drop dead from vitality exhaustion or all of the worlds blowing up before we can possibly end the game in one way or the other.
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But the entirety of his case seems to be attacking me over an RVS vote. I don't get it.
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