proph - In every game I've played with proph, he has basically led the town with his analyses, but this game seems entirely different; I feel like his impact on this game has been nearly nonexistent.
Are you serious?
Why do you feel like it's been entirely nonexistent? I've been playing since I got back.
You've been noticeably less probe-like than I've seen in all other games. It's like you have been staying in the backseat while other players--such as Megiddo--have remained in the spotlight. And as far as I know, this isn't your style.
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"I'm a compulsive liar no matter what team I play on, but I'm trying to get better about it."
I should be able to post content in the morning, I think. I just got back from a 3-day alcohol binge, a 6-hour roadtrip, no sleep, and a long day at work. After I go to the gym, I'll respond to the 7 posts I have queued up and we can finish lynching killjoy.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You should answer my questions on the previous page.
Man, it feels like killjoy is Niv 2.0 - he's talking about things everyone else has moved on from.
[b]@Nati[/b]
Besides the Seppel thing, what other thoughts have I been mirroring you on?
[b]@Meg[/b]
Quote from Megiddo »
Actually, after making that post I'm suddenly ok with the AI wagon. If that's where we're going today I'll help.
Can you expound upon your thought process on the rapid-read reversal on AI? Feels weird.
I see that Cythare has already talked to you about this. I feel like this is an additional towntell for Meg - stonewalling indicates lack of self awareness, and it reminds me how he did it with Voxx in FHF.
[b]@hans[/b]
Quote from hans »
You've been noticeably less probe-like than I've seen in all other games. It's like you have been staying in the backseat while other players--such as Megiddo--have remained in the spotlight. And as far as I know, this isn't your style.
Can you cite examples of differences between my play in this game and my play in Pleasantville/Apocalypse, which are my other two games I completed with you IIRC? I remember being hyped in Pleasantville because it was an Arnn game and I found scum!gan_dan immediately, while I remember being disengaged for most of D1 Apocalypse.
In addition:
Quote from hans »
@Seppel- In post #1067, you ask DCIII for his read on Rezombied, but then in post #1099, you question how someone could have a read on Rezombied, given his lack of posts. So what was the point of asking DCIII for his read?
You asked Seppel a question on post 1125. Seppel doesn't answer the question. Why don't you follow up on it?
I suggest that anybody stuck in perpetual catch up mode immediately cease trying to catch up and do the following:
1. Read the most recent 5 pages.
2. Ask at least three different people at least one question each.
3. Give us an idea of your reads based on the portion of the game you have read.
4. Start playing the damn game and post at a reasonable rate.
Anything you missed you can worry about later or we can tell you.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
I've said my peace toDay. Half the game is lurking through and these wagons are molasses as a result. Killjoy's 1157 is more of what I would have expected Killjoy to be doing all along, and it does read in earnest to me, but realistically it's too little, too late. There's enough marks against him that I believe he is still the correct lynch toDay (although I could still get behind Cythare or LnG as well).
Oh, yeah. DKings's 1104 is pretty bad, too. He does have a good point regarding dC, but I can't agree with his opinion on the AI wagon. It reads like a very scummy attempt at redirecting pressure back on to AI after it began slipping. Gut reaction: scum!dk subtly calling out scum!dC while redirecting focus to town!AI.
Rhand touched on this but I really don't like this post from Arian -
In the first part of this he's basically saying that Killjoy looks better from his post (I agree), while saying that it's too little too late and he's the correct lynch. He gives two alternatives that he'd be willing to lynch (Cythare and LnGr) in the same post, so if he thinks that Killjoy looks more town and doesn't like the AI wagon, then why not try to shift the wagon to someone he's scum reading? He answers that in #1175 and says that he doesn't mind lynching Town to end the Day - okay, but if that's the case then why push counter to the AI wagon? The logic doesn't connect - he makes a point that AI feels like a redirect back from Killjoy, while saying that Killjoy feels earnest, while saying that we should still lynch Killjoy - and when asked to defend that stance, he says he doesn't mind lynching town to end the Day... implying that he thinks that Killjoy is town... which takes us back to... the town!AI wagon was a "very scummy" attempt to redirect pressure back onto AI, implying that the KJ wagon would be on scum...
What I take from the above is that Arian has reason not to want to lynch AI and doesn't appear to be consistent in why he wants to lynch KJ.
In the second part he says that 1104 is pretty bad while caveating that DK has a good point on dC but that he can't agree with the AI wagon. Firstly, I don't think there's any way scum!DK would call out Scum!dC out of the blue like that, no way. It's either scum!DK calling out town!dC (unlikely) or it's town!DK making an observation about dC, which is what I think is happening there. Secondly, his language is disjointed. It's like he plugged his touch points into a sentence rather than writing it naturally and it doesn't flow like he's organically thinking those thoughts because there's no progression that links the thoughts. "1104 is a bad post" (condemns the whole post) very next thought "it has a good point regarding dC" (highlights a good point from that post) very next thought "I disagree with his opinion on AI" (soft language) very next thought "it reads as a very scummy attempt..." (strong language)
It just feels like he wanted to establish suspicion on DK in the first point, wanted to establish suspicion on dC in the second point, wanted to establish suspicion of the AI wagon in the third point, and then wanted to call it all scummy, and so he crammed that all together.
@Cythare - my point was that I didn't buy his defeatism because he was saying lynch Killjoy and vig him - meaning that I don't think he actually thought he was going to be the lynch and I think the "vig me" comment wasn't believable in that he wasn't actually advocating his own vig, it was just reverse-psychology-y. He's since made another comment that's basically that we should get on with it and lynch someone when he's one of the two main wagons. Killjoy is contributing new content now while AI isn't, just saying to get on with it.
I think that AI is the correct wagon. I should be voting for him as of #1111 and then again for good measure.
*hans should be earlier in the wagon but I don't know where.
**note that I joined earlier on the wagon but unvoted because Proph said that KJ was at L-1. I put my vote back on him since.
***claims to be voting AI. I did not check to confirm.
Which of the people on Killjoy do you not trust?
We really don't have much to gain here from discussing more. I think it's time to move to claims + wagons.
Speaking of which!
This is important and you should say whether you agree with this or not
Due to the nature of roles in this game, I think we need to modify the standard MTGS approach to claiming. Rather than claim at L-2 as normal I think we should claim at L-2+1, meaning when a player is a virtual L-1. This effectively means that they are at L-2 with at least one other person expressing that they are willing to vote the person.
Y/N+Propose alternative. If you don't respond to this I will mark you as "Y."
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
You've been noticeably less probe-like than I've seen in all other games. It's like you have been staying in the backseat while other players--such as Megiddo--have remained in the spotlight. And as far as I know, this isn't your style.
Can you cite examples of differences between my play in this game and my play in Pleasantville/Apocalypse, which are my other two games I completed with you IIRC? I remember being hyped in Pleasantville because it was an Arnn game and I found scum!gan_dan immediately, while I remember being disengaged for most of D1 Apocalypse.
I will work on it, but it will take some time. I don't think that I'll have time to re-read those games for the next several days, so just be patient.
@Seppel- In post #1067, you ask DCIII for his read on Rezombied, but then in post #1099, you question how someone could have a read on Rezombied, given his lack of posts. So what was the point of asking DCIII for his read?
You asked Seppel a question on post 1125. Seppel doesn't answer the question. Why don't you follow up on it?
There really isn't any rush to it. I assumed that he would be able to get to it in a catch up post now that he is no longer V/LA. If I felt that he was purposefully ignoring my question, then it would be different.
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*hans should be earlier in the wagon but I don't know where.
**note that I joined earlier on the wagon but unvoted because Proph said that KJ was at L-1. I put my vote back on him since.
***claims to be voting AI. I did not check to confirm.
Which of the people on Killjoy do you not trust?
We really don't have much to gain here from discussing more. I think it's time to move to claims + wagons.
Speaking of which!
This is important and you should say whether you agree with this or not
Due to the nature of roles in this game, I think we need to modify the standard MTGS approach to claiming. Rather than claim at L-2 as normal I think we should claim at L-2+1, meaning when a player is a virtual L-1. This effectively means that they are at L-2 with at least one other person expressing that they are willing to vote the person.
Y/N+Propose alternative. If you don't respond to this I will mark you as "Y."
I can get behind this. I think it's generally a good idea for a lynch to be basically locked in before a claim is made. Since we can't clear people based on their claims, there's no reason to do them earlier.
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Given the risk of outing abilities, early proposals to move to Alway are suspicious, especially without reasons. For the purposes of this list, early will mean Day 1, possibly 2.
LnGrrrR gives no reason for wanting to go to Alway.
Wildfire at least gives a reason. Like I discussed with him, the risks outweigh the benefits in my estimation. I do like where his head is at though.
Meg does not care where we move. No reasons given. Apathy or fence sitting? No idea.
Niv says that in a vaccuum, Alway is best. Why?
Prophy doesn't care which world we go to, citing that he'd rather not let mechanics optimization clog up the thread. That's not a reason not to have an opinion on the world. That's just saying people shouldn't talk extensively on it. This is a very scummy post IMO. Prophy might be scum.
Chris wants to go to Alway because roleblocks and other negative effects. Doesn't pay much attention to how it could hurt town.
Cythare sees the merit of Alway, but doesn't wanna lock in a move so early. I like this thinking.
ETR wants to go to Alway. No reasons given.
Iso want's Alway. No reason.
Hans says no Alway. No suggestions so far.
Meg now wants to go to Ruchperion. No reasoning given.
AI doesn't care where we go today. That's no the AI I know. AI is logical, and likes puzzles. Optimizing the game mechanics should be right up his alley. His apathy in this matter makes no sense.
Rez votes Alway. No reasoning.
Chris doesn't like Cythare's "Let's not lock that in just yet" post, saying it's empty. It's not.
Chris's 39 is very loaded language."Is that too much to ask?" I don't see how that was warrented. (Note: Meg agrees with that thought. Good.)
Meg 46 quickly turns around on Cythare. I don't see why though. Cythare's response wasn't scummy.
Chris's 52... "I guess I don't get anything for effectiveness"... I can't decide if that's defeatism or a sideways way of saying "Hey, it worked" with a smatering of guilting thrown in.I guess the rest of his post makes sense from a "this is how I play" standpoint. I recall MenuWars telling me in Castlevania that he's notoriously hard to read.
LnGrrrR 71: No, that's not my reasoning at all. I dislike how you think it is. Also he's pushing really hard for Alway for some reason.
Again, Arian's 80 is very helpful. Town points to him for that.
Don't like the suggestion of a massclaim, AI.
Meg 114: Did Meg not think Wildfire was scum before this?
AI's 128 re: LnGrrR reads like they're scumbuddies and LnGrrR is trying to hard to make AI look good, so AI wants him to back off.
Chris's 146 is starting to make sense to me. I like it. Sidenote to self: Chris doesn't appear to like frivility, as he cited with Arian's post, and later with my talking about the first halls.
Meg's 148: I've only ever seen Arian as scum once in Winterfell. Maybe he was acting differently there, but nothing about his huge post echoes his play in Winterfell.
Rez 192 votes kpaca for no reason, then he changes his vote to wildfire. No reasoning, but seems willing to give it with his "ask anything". Why not just give it then?
I'm inclinded to agree with Rhand's 219. re: Proph. Seppel hasn't done much this game, but he did that in Winterfell too. Meg I can't read regardless, but he seems just as inquizitive as Winterfell. He's doing more this game though. I noticed that.
Iso 226: What? "Hey Meg, if you lived to endgame, would you try to solve the game?" Or, put another way "Hey Meg... How much of a threat are you to my team?" Also fishing. Major scumpoints for this. Also makes me wonder if his explaination of why he said 5 scum was an overexplaination.
Meg 242 is just bad.
Karn comes in at 251 with a pointless post.
As of 279 LnGrrR is starting to redeem himself.
DC3's 285 are part of the reason I think he's town. Game solviness and solid logical posts.
AI's 290 says DC3 is reading too much into wording choices. I disagree, as wordchoice is completely valid in analyzing mindset. AI should know that, I think.
Karn's 292 is bad. He cites how LnGrrR is preoccupied with his naked vote when he himself hasn't done much.
LnGrrR's 298 is very good. Good questions.
Zombie brushes off my question about Alway, calling it dumb. Then brushes off Ln, then calls Chris scum without reasons. Actually this whole slew of posts seems reasonless. I do agree with his 307, as cited earlier.
Ugh Meg wallpost.
AI 330 has me leaning town? Huh. Interesting.
AI's 357 now puts me as leaning scum. No explaination given right now.
AI's 383... "Karn is scum with an outside chance of useless town. LETS VOTE HIM!" Is there someone in this game who is scum that probably isn't maybe town? No? Ok then.
Why does Seppel think people can give abilities? I don't get it.
Iso made the scumslip point about the four scum (not sure why more people haven't focused on that) but there's also calling me town without acknowledging my suspicion of him and then the below bit to Rezombied are questions that I don't believe have a real design at accomplishing anything other than looking busy. The "why kpaca" especially when kpaca hadn't posted yet and also, in the subsequent post of Rez's, he then voted Wildfire. So... there was nothing for rez to have been basing his kpaca vote on from game play and he wasn't still voting that player... so asking "why kpaca" isn't a relevant question there because the answer can't possibly be based on anything that was ongoing in the game.
"Why naked RVS vote, especially this late in the game?" "What are your reasons for voting for Wildfire?" "Why bother RVS voting to begin with if you were just going to move your vote to Wildfire?" Those are the types of questions that would have been relevant to what was going on and would have shown an inquisitive mindset. "why kpaca?" is a question for questioning sake.
I don't remember if I already answered this, but my question about "why kpaca" was partially because he hadn't posted yet, and partially because there was so much else going on. It actually didn't occur to me that it COULD be RVS due to how late in the game it was.
Quote from DC3 »
I thought Killjoy's post was a slip for two reasons - one, because it felt like a "he's wrong about the size of our team" reaction because it didn't even occur to me prior to that that Iso would have listed those people meaning that it had to be that exact number of people, no more, no less. Two, because he miscounted the number of people that Iso had listed as scum, which made me think that he didn't actually care about or take time to consider who among that list Iso thought were scum, just saw his name and maybe another relevant name or two and reacted.
Or I simply misread it on my phone. I miscounted. Simple as that.
Quote from Iso »
@killjoy: DCIII answered the question as well as I would've, minus one thing: You forgetting to include yourself as a scum player in your mind is what I believe resulted in the "4?" post. It all came across to me as, "Hey, Iso, there are 5 of us, not 4!"
Alternate possibility: I named 4 scum correctly and you slipped HARD.
This doesn't even make any sense. You think I'm scum because I DON'T think of myself as scum?
Quote from Meg »
What? Really?
Unless I misread the rules again, yeah. Edit: I didn't. It's under the Worlds spoiler in the OP.
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Ok now my eyes are tired, I've spent 3.5 hours making this... I'm up to about post... 425ish. I'll get back tonight if I can, otherwise I'm off tomorrow as well.
Geez, game aside, that's awful HP - glad you're okay.
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@Iso - I don't buy it. You can press on someone you think is scummy without derailing active wagons and if you really thought you'd caught someone that many people weren't focusing on, then I really doubt you'd just leave it alone.
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Re: DK - He's probably town. I've played somewhere around 6-7 games with him now. His scum game tends to be more lurky, extremely so at times, and he doesn't really make the same large scale stances that he's making here when he's scum, he more focuses on smaller points and observations and then doesn't regularly push them in a legitimately suspicious way. Usually, when he's scum, I've found myself being okay with his play early and then only figuring out later on that there isn't that same level of aggression/determination. When he's been town, I've more often had suspicions surrounding his early play only to figure out his authenticity later on. Here, he came in with the direction and aggressiveness that I've come more to expect from town DK. I'd be surprised if he were scum at this point.
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@Meg - You been evasive regarding any particulars of your stances on me while taking pot shots when I've been trying to engage you in discussion - and most of your points that you're trying to make you're trying to have speak for themselves. Then you just avoided the issues I brought up with you other than to say that you saw them. It's like you're trying to antagonize while running from any real conversation I'm trying to engage you in, and then just stone-walling. And your consistent harping on OOG issues (because you're moving it has anything to do with my moving? Seriously? How presumptuous is that? You know nothing about my circumstances.) is obnoxious. Whether you're scum or town, your play has made this game unenjoyable for me and at this point I'm just playing it out because I made the commitment to it and don't want to replace out of any game ever. I'd like to think you're scum and are being deliberate about your approach to just try to rile me up and get under my skin - but I don't know, part of me thinks that you've convinced yourself in what you're doing, and I think that some of the questions you're asking this game and initiative you're taking run deeper than when I've seen you as scum so... I dunno
To everyone else since Meg has turned off his listening ear regarding me and/or may be doing that intentionally - know that this frustration (about this type of thing) isn't something that I am or would bluff as scum, as I feel like there are certain things that are poor form and I'd never fake OOG concerns or take this type of line to weasel out of being caught. I'm legit off put by Meg's approach to this game, probably because I have a lot of respect for him and have had plenty of OOG interaction with him, which is why I'm annoyed. Also, his approach to Rhand is over the top and the abrasiveness doesn't make sense to me. This game has a pretty sour taste right now for me.
I plan on playing on this site for a long time and I have no intention of being the gamesmanship/angle shooting guy, so please just know that this is legit. I am not now nor will I ever take the "I'm not just frustrated, I've actually stopped having fun this game because of X" type stance as scum. This is my version of Iso claiming VT as something that I will NEVER do as scum. Mark it - though I hope to never have to use it again in the future.
That being said - I'm not going anywhere and am going to be working to try to solve this thing.
For some reason I'm not in the vote count so that should be fixed because I was previously voting Vote: AsianInvasion.
Can't be arsed to chop this post up so I'll respond with bullets instead.
* I stated that my ability was better in Alway Etteem, but thank you for the
* No, I wanted to know if it was worth helping Megiddo with his vitality or not. But again, thank you for the
* No, and the fact that you're STILL ASKING ME about my explanation of your slip means you're obviously not trying to understand it.
* ...and that's exactly what I'm doing - I began pushing you when no one else was paying attention to you and broke up a large portion of the AI wagon support to take you down. And I want AI dead on Day 2. So where's the inconsistency? How is everything you just said about this not in direct support of my actions thus far, only with different people?
Oh right someone asked something like "how do you know people can give abilities?"
I don't, it's just my ability is crap and I'd like a better one if possible. I'm openly stating this because I feel it's an optimal play to make me a better threat.
You don't feel you get distracted with your ability when you have one, as opposed to being forced to analyze when you can't do anything useful at Night?
@Cythare, Iso asked me why Killjoy being ok with some of the arguments against him was scummy. I answered. Unless you think he meant something else with his question, not sure what you mean.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Also: Megiddo: I don't particularly understand why you want claim range to be changed, unless it has something to do with randomized alignments. That said, I'm not in favor, as the more time scum have to stall out of a claim, the less likely they are to get lynched - see Crosstowns 2 and 3 for prime examples of this (Nacho and me in Crosstown 2, Az in Crosstown 3).
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Something is bothering me about this Killjoy wagon. I feel like there is a coordinated effort to get AI through the day.
Like 12-15 different players in this game (including about 75% of the people on KJ right now) have expressed confident scumreads in AI at various times, but a bunch of them never voted actually for him. Add to this the fact that I'm scumreading Cythare, and that vote above makes me think he wants nothing to do with the KJ wagon.
On another note, 1097 is the second time dC has popped his head in while a major wagon was forming and focused on a player no one was talking about.
You think Cythare and AI are scum together?
This should answer both you and Megiddo: yes I can definitely see Cythare and AI as scum together. Based on the couple of pages of posts leading up to the point where Cythare voted AI, it looked very much as though Killjoy would be today's lynch while AI was a likely choice to be vigged or lynched D2. If we are playing in a scum!Cythare / scum!AI / town!KJ world, Cythare could be looking for towncred down the road by saying "hey, I was on the scum wagon D1". Keep in mind that KJ had 8 or 9 votes at that point, and I believe AI only had 3.
I did make a point previously about a post where Cythare voted AI but mostly grilled Hans. I need to go back and re-assess that post and also figure out where it put Cythare on the early AI wagon.
Oh, apparently I'm scum in Megs's book now? That's nice. I say the same thing to you that I said to DK (in the post you quoted, nonetheless): lynch me and I'll be back as confirmed town when we get to Ghostlands anyway. It's irrelevant to me other than being a waste of a lynch.
I've said my peace toDay. Half the game is lurking through and these wagons are molasses as a result. Killjoy's 1157 is more of what I would have expected Killjoy to be doing all along, and it does read in earnest to me, but realistically it's too little, too late. There's enough marks against him that I believe he is still the correct lynch toDay (although I could still get behind Cythare or LnG as well).
Oh, yeah. DKings's 1104 is pretty bad, too. He does have a good point regarding dC, but I can't agree with his opinion on the AI wagon. It reads like a very scummy attempt at redirecting pressure back on to AI after it began slipping. Gut reaction: scum!dk subtly calling out scum!dC while redirecting focus to town!AI.
OK, seriously... I want everyone who has a town read on Arian to articulate why.
Everything in this post is wishy-washy. Killjoy's post reads "in earnest", but too little too late? My post is pretty bad, but I have a good point about dC?
Not to mention that this is the second time Arian has firmly stated a scum read (Cythare earlier, myself here) and gone back with passive language to lessen the impact of his opinion later. Here he says his gut reaction is that I'm scum calling out a buddy, and then later he says he "doesn't know if there is anything there". Earlier in the day he invoked "No brakes" on his Cythare vote, then later came back and diminished the importance of his own case by calling it "tenuous" and "gut".
Rhand touched on this but I really don't like this post from Arian -
In the first part of this he's basically saying that Killjoy looks better from his post (I agree), while saying that it's too little too late and he's the correct lynch. He gives two alternatives that he'd be willing to lynch (Cythare and LnGr) in the same post, so if he thinks that Killjoy looks more town and doesn't like the AI wagon, then why not try to shift the wagon to someone he's scum reading? He answers that in #1175 and says that he doesn't mind lynching Town to end the Day - okay, but if that's the case then why push counter to the AI wagon? The logic doesn't connect - he makes a point that AI feels like a redirect back from Killjoy, while saying that Killjoy feels earnest, while saying that we should still lynch Killjoy - and when asked to defend that stance, he says he doesn't mind lynching town to end the Day... implying that he thinks that Killjoy is town... which takes us back to... the town!AI wagon was a "very scummy" attempt to redirect pressure back onto AI, implying that the KJ wagon would be on scum...
What I take from the above is that Arian has reason not to want to lynch AI and doesn't appear to be consistent in why he wants to lynch KJ.
In the second part he says that 1104 is pretty bad while caveating that DK has a good point on dC but that he can't agree with the AI wagon. Firstly, I don't think there's any way scum!DK would call out Scum!dC out of the blue like that, no way. It's either scum!DK calling out town!dC (unlikely) or it's town!DK making an observation about dC, which is what I think is happening there. Secondly, his language is disjointed. It's like he plugged his touch points into a sentence rather than writing it naturally and it doesn't flow like he's organically thinking those thoughts because there's no progression that links the thoughts. "1104 is a bad post" (condemns the whole post) very next thought "it has a good point regarding dC" (highlights a good point from that post) very next thought "I disagree with his opinion on AI" (soft language) very next thought "it reads as a very scummy attempt..." (strong language)
It just feels like he wanted to establish suspicion on DK in the first point, wanted to establish suspicion on dC in the second point, wanted to establish suspicion of the AI wagon in the third point, and then wanted to call it all scummy, and so he crammed that all together.
This is important and you should say whether you agree with this or not
Due to the nature of roles in this game, I think we need to modify the standard MTGS approach to claiming. Rather than claim at L-2 as normal I think we should claim at L-2+1, meaning when a player is a virtual L-1. This effectively means that they are at L-2 with at least one other person expressing that they are willing to vote the person.
Y/N+Propose alternative. If you don't respond to this I will mark you as "Y."
Seems fine to me for later days. For today, I think KJ needs to just claim now. This day has dragged on forever.
Having some keyboard issues, so forgive any typos in this post.
Not enamoured o fthe AI wagon. He sounds consistently annoyed annd impatient, and his tone doesnt appreciably vary even as votes shift between him and Killjoy. I don't think scumAI is good enough at faking that lack of caring. It's not impossible that he's genuinely frustrated and wants out as scum, but I doubt it.
More supportive of Killjoy wagon after his latest post. His entire first part about 'early proposals to move to Alway being suspicious' is especially bad, including his qualifier to that statement and how he fails to quantify why said early proposals are supposedly suspicious. That list of his appears to serve no real purpose, and reads more like a message to scumbuddies than anything else. The only strong statements he makes are towards Prophylaxis and, unsurprisingly, AI. His 'Notes' section is also heavily slanted towards AI - this sounds very much like someone jusst wanting to push the alternate wagon to himself at any cost. Also, from the same Notes section, I can't actually tell why he has Prophylaxiss so heavily scum, and he appears to have Iso heavily scum for a relatively minor point and otherwise OMGUS reasons. I don't buy it.
In that context, HookerPunch suddenly throwing in objection to the Killjoy wagon is very suspicious.
dkings latest posts show a pretty town 'Aha!' thought process. I do want Sir Chris to answer thee point he brought up. I also have questions for Arian about that same post, but I'd like to be able to quote or that, so tomorrow affter I replace this keyboard.
I don't see the ratioanale for changing claim procedure.
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Esper Simperer; Even the court homonculi need someone to look down on.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...' Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
I should be able to post content in the morning, I think. I just got back from a 3-day alcohol binge, a 6-hour roadtrip, no sleep, and a long day at work. After I go to the gym, I'll respond to the 7 posts I have queued up and we can finish lynching killjoy.
If you've been drinking, going to the gym is pointless for muscle gain over the next 24 hours. You're best off focusing strictly on cardio, because that'll actually accomplish something.
This should answer both you and Megiddo: yes I can definitely see Cythare and AI as scum together. Based on the couple of pages of posts leading up to the point where Cythare voted AI, it looked very much as though Killjoy would be today's lynch while AI was a likely choice to be vigged or lynched D2. If we are playing in a scum!Cythare / scum!AI / town!KJ world, Cythare could be looking for towncred down the road by saying "hey, I was on the scum wagon D1". Keep in mind that KJ had 8 or 9 votes at that point, and I believe AI only had 3.
I did make a point previously about a post where Cythare voted AI but mostly grilled Hans. I need to go back and re-assess that post and also figure out where it put Cythare on the early AI wagon.
This is so weak and doesn't even address how that combination couldn't be town. It just shows how they could be scum.
I know this day has gone on forever but I really want to lynch DK even if everyone else doesn't.
DCIII with a vague, but ultimately sound vote on me. I mean voting me for things I've said is pretty fair.
Early town read further decreasing.
I see you missed the humor there. Let me help: what else would someone vote me for other than the things I've posted? Think about it.
Anyway been busy, just caught that. Let me go back to reading from where I left off.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
Vote: Sir Chris - for his posts, especially all of them.
@EtR - Boo!
The vote in question which I believed deserved a smartass answer, btw.
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2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang) 2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer 2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator) 2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia 2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational 2015 - Best Town Player 2015 - Best Mafia Player 2015 - Best Overall Player
The thing that worries me with AI is actually not AI. I haven't liked Arian much this game and he was the one that told me that AI was usually stubborn when I asked for opinions. Now this could have any meaning of either of their alignment, but I find it weird Meg didn't think to note that when clearing AI but damning Arian a bit in 1127. Or maybe he mentioned it earlier and I missed it?
I have now discovered that Rhand is mentally fragile, good to know for future gameplaying on here.
That being said I don't think it benefits town for Meg to refuse to answer questions, because those questions are seen by more than just Rhand. In fact if Meg is a clever player this spat with Rhand seems pretty suspicious to me in a vacuum. "Hey I think you are scum, so I am not going to give answers to questions." Thinking someone is scum or bad is not actually a valid excuse to not answer questions, it is just a stall/put off technique in and of itself. Bad form by Meg really in terms of play, don't care about the yelling part I do that sometimes too.
1032 DCIII sure talks a good game.
More later.
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@Meg: What do you mean by "Due to the nature of roles in this game?" As far as claim protocol is concerned, I'm inclined to not care.
To answer you and Iso simultaneously, my thought is that a claim (at least this early in the game) won't really help us with narrowing down the claimer's alignment, so it's probably best to limit how free we are with doing them. I'm willing to be wrong on this point. Iso's counterargument is particularly compelling.
Iso, Seppel, AsianInvasion, Sir Chris, Arianrhod, Wildfire393, LnGrrrR, Megiddo**, Hansanator*
Bolded are names I don't particularly trust, with an extra emphasis on the brothers.
Zeebrugge
I'm sure you've talked at great length about each of these players and that I need but to reread your posts to find out why you dislike them.
Iso: I don't really see the scum motivation behind AI's posts? Like in absence of some meta tell it just seems like the play that could come from a disinterested town AI rather than from scum AI. I don't actually have that much experience playing with him actually, though, and the last time we did play together I think was Survival Horror where I got to cheat in terms of reading his alignment. Plus, he read genuine in terms of his interactions with you. As for why I switched, I realized that I was wrong about my interpretation of the Iso/AI theory and that he (independent from you) could still be genuine in his interactions as scum. So I lost one reason I was townreading him, which made me more OK with his lynch.
Iso again: Hooker only, though that would be a good thought exercise for everybody. I don't want to spend time on it Today though. We have enough timewasting as it is.
Dkingsland: This explanation completely sidesteps my point about your post.
So lynch me / vig me and be done with it. I'll laugh at you all when we go to Ghostlands. Bring it, big boy.
Surely there is a more productive thing you could be doing than this?
dC: Between your post and my point about Survival Horror above, I will reread Day 2 of that game to see what I can glean. For the record, I copped AI Night one after he had been pressured D1. The guy who was leading the AI charge (DYH) was NK'd, so I just pretended that I was gung-ho following DYH and pushed on AI. As far as I can remember I evaded suspicion as the cop for at least two more Days by doing this, but that's irrelevant. Rereading his reactions there may be useful.
Sir Chris: For your first paragraph, what did I fail to note? Please clarify.
For the third, keep reading my friend. You are misrepping me pretty badly here, just fyi.
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Can we have Megiddo removed from the forum forever please?
i'm pretty sure i can find your ***** online within 3 minutes
Arian justified some of AI's posting earlier in the topic when I asked about it, I'll find it in a bit if you need me to. Felt like for a guy discussing both Arian and AI it'd be something to pique your interest. As for the third paragraph, well you seem genuinely annoyed by how I framed it so that's probably a good sign that you're town.
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Claiming in a zindabad game is a distraction in terms of lynching the player claiming on D1 but is somewhat relevant down the road for analyzing other claims. So if we're going to lynch killjoy then he needs to claim for posterity and then hang.
I should be able to post content in the morning, I think. I just got back from a 3-day alcohol binge, a 6-hour roadtrip, no sleep, and a long day at work. After I go to the gym, I'll respond to the 7 posts I have queued up and we can finish lynching killjoy.
If you've been drinking, going to the gym is pointless for muscle gain over the next 24 hours. You're best off focusing strictly on cardio, because that'll actually accomplish something.
Yeah, I decided when I got back from out of town that all I'm gonna be doing for a while is running and swimming, I think. But thanks for the tip!
Claiming in a zindabad game is a distraction in terms of lynching the player claiming on D1 but is somewhat relevant down the road for analyzing other claims. So if we're going to lynch killjoy then he needs to claim for posterity and then hang.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I will work on it, but it will take some time. I don't think that I'll have time to re-read those games for the next several days, so just be patient.
OK. Thanks.
Quote from hans »
There really isn't any rush to it. I assumed that he would be able to get to it in a catch up post now that he is no longer V/LA. If I felt that he was purposefully ignoring my question, then it would be different.
Alright, here's another one:
Quote from hans »
Can you rephrase this? I don't really understand what you mean by mechanical.
You asked this to Cythare, and he never answered it. Why didn't you ask him why he didn't clarify?
Hey Meg - when Cythare asked about why you switched stances on AI, you said "read my posts more carefully and you'll have the answer". However, when Iso asks a similar question "why did you think AI was town" you told him why you switched. Why would you give that answer to Cythare yet fully explain to Iso?
zindabad has stated to me that the game is indeed full reveal on death.
Ok... I think Meg's idea is a good one. I'll do that.
Notes:
I still think Rhand has a solid head on his shoulders this game.
Manders busy is STILL not a universal scumtell.
Karn's 1086 is overreaching a bit.
I've been thinking for a while now that Iso doesn't actually think I'm scum. The way he pointed out my supposed slip then waited for someone else to explain it started me on that path. His 1088 continues to give me this impression with his "stop agreeing with me". It just feels so fake.
I don't remember Wildfire being pushy ever. 1100 seems out of character for him, in that case. Not inherently scummy, but odd.
Meg's STILL REQUIRE CONTENT FROM list seems overly helpful townie to me.
Stating the obvious is still not inherently a scumtell. In fact, I need to pour over the quote in 1109 thoroughly. I think Chris may be confbiasing a bit.
It's hard to have reads when you're not caught up, but ok.
I again find myself agreeing with DC3 in 1123, where he thinks Iso is being disingenuous.
hans's 1125 is quite nice. I like his points and questions in it.
I don't like Seppel's potshots without commitment.
Glad to see you're ok Hooker.
Meg's 1163... How does one suddenly be ok with a wagon without explaining it? Does not make sense to me.
Arian's 1163 just shat all over the townread I was having on him in the first 400ish posts. How does one justify "Ya know... KJ's post is in earnest... but it's too late. Can't go back now."
Seppel responds to Arian, but tells him to interact with people.
Rhand's 1171 is very townie, especially his view on Arian's post.
Arian wants to lynch town... But he's very up front about that. Odd.
Seppel's votecounts are overly helpful town, I think. I remember reading a game where I caught atlseal on his first post because he was scum keeping a running tally of votecounts in his posts. Therefore
I agree with Hooker's bolded people, except that Meg should be bolded and Ln should not in my list.
So Arian is being just as defeatist as AI? Interesting.
Aaaaaaaand Seppel wants to skip my claim. Yeah, he's not scum at all.
AI agrees? No surprise there.
And Iso!
---------------------------------------------
Questions:
LnGrrR: Why do you think seeing the logic in the points against you is a scummy thing to do?
Everyone: Have we voted to move yet? I'm still down to go to Ruchperion.
DC: You said I didn't quantify what about the position was suspicious. But directly before that, I said that it was because of the risk of outing abilities. I think I made that point earlier, but why not ask if you think I wasn't clear enough? The fact that you say I basically had no reason for the suspicion is suspicious.
Meg: Why do we need to change the claim range because of the nature of the roles?
----------------------------------------------
Scumspects (no particular order)
Iso
AI
Meg
Seppel
Maybe Des.
------------------------------------------------
Responses to things
Quote from Proph »
What exactly did DCIII do to give you townie vibes?
He's being logical and game solvy. Just like he is in every game I've had him in. I've never seen a scum DC3.
Quote from Proph »
Again, any insight into Wildfire's alignment? It feels like you're saying things about him but not actually committing to a read.
I never have a decent read on him D1. In Deus Ex I thought he was scum for SO LONG then realized he wasn't. So, no. No insight whatsoever.
Quote from Proph »
Why are you only looking for mentions of yourself in the game thread? Why aren't you giving reads and scumhunting?
With hans's vote, killjoy is at L-1 right now. I want someone to unvote.
I didn't have any time.
Quote from Iso »
* I stated that my ability was better in Alway Etteem, but thank you for the Gone Fishin'
* No, I wanted to know if it was worth helping Megiddo with his vitality or not. But again, thank you for the Fishing
* No, and the fact that you're STILL ASKING ME about my explanation of your slip means you're obviously not trying to understand it.
* ...and that's exactly what I'm doing - I began pushing you when no one else was paying attention to you and broke up a large portion of the AI wagon support to take you down. And I want AI dead on Day 2. So where's the inconsistency? How is everything you just said about this not in direct support of my actions thus far, only with different people?
You may need to break these up. I'm not connecting what these are refering to.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Oh and Re: Claim... I think I'm at L-3, but given my role I don't wanna claim until absolutely necessary.
And don't pull that "I'm trying to stall" crap. My role is completely proveable.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
And don't pull that "I'm trying to stall" crap. My role is completely proveable.
Does it prove that you're town or does it prove that you're claiming correctly?
Also yes we've moved to Ruchperion.
Also I was doing votecounts because Zindabad's votecounts are absolutely frustrating. They don't list who isn't voting and they come with absurd infrequency. And that's probably helping this day go so slowly: nobody knows who's voting who and nobody knows who isn't voting.
Off the top of anyone's head, do you know who isn't voting? I couldn't list everyone with absolute certainty.
First off, yes, we're locked in for Ruchperion already. No action needed there.
Quote from Killjoy »
How does one justify "Ya know... KJ's post is in earnest... but it's too late. Can't go back now."
It's simple. If you'd been posting like this all along, I would likely be townreading you because that's how I'm used to you playing. But you didn't play like that until you were under heavy pressure (to the extent of being one of the leading wagons for the Day). Everyone's calling you out on what you aren't doing that you usually would be, so you say hey, maybe I can save myself and start posting better. That's what I mean when I said it's too little, too late.
----------
Also, I'm very upfront about being unconcerned if we lynch town because it's not a bad thing this game.
Consider:
There are two scenarios that Zindamod could be using:
A: Normal reveal -- we get alignments, role, etc
B: Low reveal -- we still get alignments at minimum
Now, recall that we'll get going to Ghostlands at some point. I forget the exact Day that I laid out in my plan, but it was somewhere around D3 or D4 iirc. On Ghostlands, dead players can talk. This means that everyone who has died up to that point is confirmed, regardless of which reveal it is. Everyone knows how powerful town!Seppel is once he gets going, so let's use Seppel as an example. Let's say on D2 we lynch Seppel (this is purely example). He flips town. Rats, we missed lynching scum. But! Seppel is now confirmed the next time we hear from him. No doubts, no questioning of motives, nothing. We know that he's in earnest. That's powerful. It's not as powerful as lynching scum, because that actually puts us closer to winning. But if we have a relative certainty that player X is scum, we lynch that player and they're town -- all that means is that we're storing a conf!town in a bank to be used later.
I've been saying for like two weeks that this Day seriously just needs to end. At this point, with that lens in mind, I really don't care who we lynch. I've said it before and I'll say it again: we need a flip and night actions to get the analysts rolling. We're not going to accomplish anything by dragging this Day out -- we haven't accomplished anything in weeks in general.
Killjoy if you're town please re-examine the way you play Mafia in its entirety because your last posts are just abysmal.
If you can't figure out what points are relating to what, read what you direct to/about me in the post I quoted, and then read down the line of points I respond with.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
First off, yes, we're locked in for Ruchperion already. No action needed there.
Quote from Killjoy »
How does one justify "Ya know... KJ's post is in earnest... but it's too late. Can't go back now."
It's simple. If you'd been posting like this all along, I would likely be townreading you because that's how I'm used to you playing. But you didn't play like that until you were under heavy pressure (to the extent of being one of the leading wagons for the Day). Everyone's calling you out on what you aren't doing that you usually would be, so you say hey, maybe I can save myself and start posting better. That's what I mean when I said it's too little, too late.
----------
Also, I'm very upfront about being unconcerned if we lynch town because it's not a bad thing this game.
Consider:
There are two scenarios that Zindamod could be using:
A: Normal reveal -- we get alignments, role, etc
B: Low reveal -- we still get alignments at minimum
Now, recall that we'll get going to Ghostlands at some point. I forget the exact Day that I laid out in my plan, but it was somewhere around D3 or D4 iirc. On Ghostlands, dead players can talk. This means that everyone who has died up to that point is confirmed, regardless of which reveal it is. Everyone knows how powerful town!Seppel is once he gets going, so let's use Seppel as an example. Let's say on D2 we lynch Seppel (this is purely example). He flips town. Rats, we missed lynching scum. But! Seppel is now confirmed the next time we hear from him. No doubts, no questioning of motives, nothing. We know that he's in earnest. That's powerful. It's not as powerful as lynching scum, because that actually puts us closer to winning. But if we have a relative certainty that player X is scum, we lynch that player and they're town -- all that means is that we're storing a conf!town in a bank to be used later.
I've been saying for like two weeks that this Day seriously just needs to end. At this point, with that lens in mind, I really don't care who we lynch. I've said it before and I'll say it again: we need a flip and night actions to get the analysts rolling. We're not going to accomplish anything by dragging this Day out -- we haven't accomplished anything in weeks in general.
This post in combination with my gut scumread on Seppel makes me want to lynch Seppel badly lol.
Anyways, EtR seems to not come back and I don't want to lynch KJ, so unvote, vote AI
No, I was being serious.
@Rhand: Sorry I haven't been paying much attention to you. Please appear more townie if you want more attention from me.
You've been noticeably less probe-like than I've seen in all other games. It's like you have been staying in the backseat while other players--such as Megiddo--have remained in the spotlight. And as far as I know, this isn't your style.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Can you go into more detail about this?
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Curse PremiumYou should answer my questions on the previous page.
Man, it feels like killjoy is Niv 2.0 - he's talking about things everyone else has moved on from.
[b]@Nati[/b]
Besides the Seppel thing, what other thoughts have I been mirroring you on?
[b]@Meg[/b]
Can you expound upon your thought process on the rapid-read reversal on AI? Feels weird.I see that Cythare has already talked to you about this. I feel like this is an additional towntell for Meg - stonewalling indicates lack of self awareness, and it reminds me how he did it with Voxx in FHF.
[b]@hans[/b]
Can you cite examples of differences between my play in this game and my play in Pleasantville/Apocalypse, which are my other two games I completed with you IIRC? I remember being hyped in Pleasantville because it was an Arnn game and I found scum!gan_dan immediately, while I remember being disengaged for most of D1 Apocalypse.
In addition:
You asked Seppel a question on post 1125. Seppel doesn't answer the question. Why don't you follow up on it?
1. Read the most recent 5 pages.
2. Ask at least three different people at least one question each.
3. Give us an idea of your reads based on the portion of the game you have read.
4. Start playing the damn game and post at a reasonable rate.
Anything you missed you can worry about later or we can tell you.
Rhand touched on this but I really don't like this post from Arian -
In the first part of this he's basically saying that Killjoy looks better from his post (I agree), while saying that it's too little too late and he's the correct lynch. He gives two alternatives that he'd be willing to lynch (Cythare and LnGr) in the same post, so if he thinks that Killjoy looks more town and doesn't like the AI wagon, then why not try to shift the wagon to someone he's scum reading? He answers that in #1175 and says that he doesn't mind lynching Town to end the Day - okay, but if that's the case then why push counter to the AI wagon? The logic doesn't connect - he makes a point that AI feels like a redirect back from Killjoy, while saying that Killjoy feels earnest, while saying that we should still lynch Killjoy - and when asked to defend that stance, he says he doesn't mind lynching town to end the Day... implying that he thinks that Killjoy is town... which takes us back to... the town!AI wagon was a "very scummy" attempt to redirect pressure back onto AI, implying that the KJ wagon would be on scum...
What I take from the above is that Arian has reason not to want to lynch AI and doesn't appear to be consistent in why he wants to lynch KJ.
In the second part he says that 1104 is pretty bad while caveating that DK has a good point on dC but that he can't agree with the AI wagon. Firstly, I don't think there's any way scum!DK would call out Scum!dC out of the blue like that, no way. It's either scum!DK calling out town!dC (unlikely) or it's town!DK making an observation about dC, which is what I think is happening there. Secondly, his language is disjointed. It's like he plugged his touch points into a sentence rather than writing it naturally and it doesn't flow like he's organically thinking those thoughts because there's no progression that links the thoughts. "1104 is a bad post" (condemns the whole post) very next thought "it has a good point regarding dC" (highlights a good point from that post) very next thought "I disagree with his opinion on AI" (soft language) very next thought "it reads as a very scummy attempt..." (strong language)
It just feels like he wanted to establish suspicion on DK in the first point, wanted to establish suspicion on dC in the second point, wanted to establish suspicion of the AI wagon in the third point, and then wanted to call it all scummy, and so he crammed that all together.
Much more suspicious of Arian now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Cythare - my point was that I didn't buy his defeatism because he was saying lynch Killjoy and vig him - meaning that I don't think he actually thought he was going to be the lynch and I think the "vig me" comment wasn't believable in that he wasn't actually advocating his own vig, it was just reverse-psychology-y. He's since made another comment that's basically that we should get on with it and lynch someone when he's one of the two main wagons. Killjoy is contributing new content now while AI isn't, just saying to get on with it.
I think that AI is the correct wagon. I should be voting for him as of #1111 and then again for good measure.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
Completed Game Log
2014: Best Mafia Performance (Group)
2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
killjoy (9) - Iso, Seppel, AsianInvasion, Sir Chris, Arianrhod, Wildfire393, LnGrrrR, Megiddo**, Hansanator*
AsianInvasion (6) - Sir Karn, rezombied, killjoy, Cythare, dkingsland967, DCIII***
*hans should be earlier in the wagon but I don't know where.
**note that I joined earlier on the wagon but unvoted because Proph said that KJ was at L-1. I put my vote back on him since.
***claims to be voting AI. I did not check to confirm.
Which of the people on Killjoy do you not trust?
We really don't have much to gain here from discussing more. I think it's time to move to claims + wagons.
Speaking of which!
This is important and you should say whether you agree with this or not
Due to the nature of roles in this game, I think we need to modify the standard MTGS approach to claiming. Rather than claim at L-2 as normal I think we should claim at L-2+1, meaning when a player is a virtual L-1. This effectively means that they are at L-2 with at least one other person expressing that they are willing to vote the person.
Y/N+Propose alternative. If you don't respond to this I will mark you as "Y."
I will work on it, but it will take some time. I don't think that I'll have time to re-read those games for the next several days, so just be patient.
There really isn't any rush to it. I assumed that he would be able to get to it in a catch up post now that he is no longer V/LA. If I felt that he was purposefully ignoring my question, then it would be different.
Previous Mafia Experience:
Mafia aligned: 2/0 -100%
Town aligned: 4/3 - 57%
Bolded are names I don't particularly trust, with an extra emphasis on the brothers.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
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StaffI can get behind this. I think it's generally a good idea for a lynch to be basically locked in before a claim is made. Since we can't clear people based on their claims, there's no reason to do them earlier.
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Can't be arsed to chop this post up so I'll respond with bullets instead.
* I stated that my ability was better in Alway Etteem, but thank you for the
* No, I wanted to know if it was worth helping Megiddo with his vitality or not. But again, thank you for the
* No, and the fact that you're STILL ASKING ME about my explanation of your slip means you're obviously not trying to understand it.
* ...and that's exactly what I'm doing - I began pushing you when no one else was paying attention to you and broke up a large portion of the AI wagon support to take you down. And I want AI dead on Day 2. So where's the inconsistency? How is everything you just said about this not in direct support of my actions thus far, only with different people?
Yeah; I just wanted to know why you thought he was town.
And now I want to know why not.
You don't feel you get distracted with your ability when you have one, as opposed to being forced to analyze when you can't do anything useful at Night?
Did I?
Well it's not gonna be much of a reaction if you keep pushing the point.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
^
Was this directed at Hooker or everyone?
Agreed.
So not only are you totally useless, you probably only have 2 scum in your list at the most. Remind me why we should let you live?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
This should answer both you and Megiddo: yes I can definitely see Cythare and AI as scum together. Based on the couple of pages of posts leading up to the point where Cythare voted AI, it looked very much as though Killjoy would be today's lynch while AI was a likely choice to be vigged or lynched D2. If we are playing in a scum!Cythare / scum!AI / town!KJ world, Cythare could be looking for towncred down the road by saying "hey, I was on the scum wagon D1". Keep in mind that KJ had 8 or 9 votes at that point, and I believe AI only had 3.
I did make a point previously about a post where Cythare voted AI but mostly grilled Hans. I need to go back and re-assess that post and also figure out where it put Cythare on the early AI wagon.
Red flag.
I am like 99% sure you actually made a post to this effect earlier in the game toward DCIII. I need to go back and find it in my notes.
OK, seriously... I want everyone who has a town read on Arian to articulate why.
Everything in this post is wishy-washy. Killjoy's post reads "in earnest", but too little too late? My post is pretty bad, but I have a good point about dC?
Not to mention that this is the second time Arian has firmly stated a scum read (Cythare earlier, myself here) and gone back with passive language to lessen the impact of his opinion later. Here he says his gut reaction is that I'm scum calling out a buddy, and then later he says he "doesn't know if there is anything there". Earlier in the day he invoked "No brakes" on his Cythare vote, then later came back and diminished the importance of his own case by calling it "tenuous" and "gut".
Also...
... this is another scumtell for Arian.
I'm warming to you.
Seems fine to me for later days. For today, I think KJ needs to just claim now. This day has dragged on forever.
Early town read further decreasing.
Not enamoured o fthe AI wagon. He sounds consistently annoyed annd impatient, and his tone doesnt appreciably vary even as votes shift between him and Killjoy. I don't think scumAI is good enough at faking that lack of caring. It's not impossible that he's genuinely frustrated and wants out as scum, but I doubt it.
More supportive of Killjoy wagon after his latest post. His entire first part about 'early proposals to move to Alway being suspicious' is especially bad, including his qualifier to that statement and how he fails to quantify why said early proposals are supposedly suspicious. That list of his appears to serve no real purpose, and reads more like a message to scumbuddies than anything else. The only strong statements he makes are towards Prophylaxis and, unsurprisingly, AI. His 'Notes' section is also heavily slanted towards AI - this sounds very much like someone jusst wanting to push the alternate wagon to himself at any cost. Also, from the same Notes section, I can't actually tell why he has Prophylaxiss so heavily scum, and he appears to have Iso heavily scum for a relatively minor point and otherwise OMGUS reasons. I don't buy it.
In that context, HookerPunch suddenly throwing in objection to the Killjoy wagon is very suspicious.
dkings latest posts show a pretty town 'Aha!' thought process. I do want Sir Chris to answer thee point he brought up. I also have questions for Arian about that same post, but I'd like to be able to quote or that, so tomorrow affter I replace this keyboard.
I don't see the ratioanale for changing claim procedure.
Jund Fangirl; Few things can describe the bliss of the fangirl's cries fading to silence (broken by occasional munching sounds).
Grixis Emo; 'Why should I go out there? They're all uncaring zombies! *sniff* No one understands me...'
Bant Wageslave; Behind every successful knight is a corporate drudge doing his taxwork.
Naya Overenthusiast; Because there is such a thing as too much enthusiasm.
If you've been drinking, going to the gym is pointless for muscle gain over the next 24 hours. You're best off focusing strictly on cardio, because that'll actually accomplish something.
This is so weak and doesn't even address how that combination couldn't be town. It just shows how they could be scum.
I know this day has gone on forever but I really want to lynch DK even if everyone else doesn't.
Why would I spend time trying to make a case for two players I am scumreading being town?
I see you missed the humor there. Let me help: what else would someone vote me for other than the things I've posted? Think about it.
Anyway been busy, just caught that. Let me go back to reading from where I left off.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
The vote in question which I believed deserved a smartass answer, btw.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
I have now discovered that Rhand is mentally fragile, good to know for future gameplaying on here.
That being said I don't think it benefits town for Meg to refuse to answer questions, because those questions are seen by more than just Rhand. In fact if Meg is a clever player this spat with Rhand seems pretty suspicious to me in a vacuum. "Hey I think you are scum, so I am not going to give answers to questions." Thinking someone is scum or bad is not actually a valid excuse to not answer questions, it is just a stall/put off technique in and of itself. Bad form by Meg really in terms of play, don't care about the yelling part I do that sometimes too.
1032 DCIII sure talks a good game.
More later.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
Because you want to be right? No I guess you just want to lynch them.
I do but dear god man.
Zeebrugge
I'm sure you've talked at great length about each of these players and that I need but to reread your posts to find out why you dislike them.
Iso: I don't really see the scum motivation behind AI's posts? Like in absence of some meta tell it just seems like the play that could come from a disinterested town AI rather than from scum AI. I don't actually have that much experience playing with him actually, though, and the last time we did play together I think was Survival Horror where I got to cheat in terms of reading his alignment. Plus, he read genuine in terms of his interactions with you. As for why I switched, I realized that I was wrong about my interpretation of the Iso/AI theory and that he (independent from you) could still be genuine in his interactions as scum. So I lost one reason I was townreading him, which made me more OK with his lynch.
Iso again: Hooker only, though that would be a good thought exercise for everybody. I don't want to spend time on it Today though. We have enough timewasting as it is.
Dkingsland: This explanation completely sidesteps my point about your post.
Surely there is a more productive thing you could be doing than this?
dC: Between your post and my point about Survival Horror above, I will reread Day 2 of that game to see what I can glean. For the record, I copped AI Night one after he had been pressured D1. The guy who was leading the AI charge (DYH) was NK'd, so I just pretended that I was gung-ho following DYH and pushed on AI. As far as I can remember I evaded suspicion as the cop for at least two more Days by doing this, but that's irrelevant. Rereading his reactions there may be useful.
Sir Chris: For your first paragraph, what did I fail to note? Please clarify.
For the third, keep reading my friend. You are misrepping me pretty badly here, just fyi.
Scumhunting day one is the dumbest thing. It's only useful day four. Now, townhunting is something I can get behind.
Which, I admit, I haven't done much this game. I'm lost in a haze that only deaths can fix.
Either way, we're all gonna burn
Arian justified some of AI's posting earlier in the topic when I asked about it, I'll find it in a bit if you need me to. Felt like for a guy discussing both Arian and AI it'd be something to pique your interest. As for the third paragraph, well you seem genuinely annoyed by how I framed it so that's probably a good sign that you're town.
2014 - Best Mafia Performance (Individual)(Wu Tang)
2014 - Best Mafia Newcomer
2015 - Best Town Performance (Individual) (Predator)
2015 - Best Town Performance (Group) - Predator Mafia
2015 - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - 2015 Invitational
2015 - Best Town Player
2015 - Best Mafia Player
2015 - Best Overall Player
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Seasons: No
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So it's anyone's guess.
Yeah, I decided when I got back from out of town that all I'm gonna be doing for a while is running and swimming, I think. But thanks for the tip!
I laughed.
As much as I'm in favor of this, AI is actually correct in this respect.
Disagreed. Games can be solved on Day 1 - you just have to try.
Which you're obviously not.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Curse PremiumOK. Thanks.
Alright, here's another one:
You asked this to Cythare, and he never answered it. Why didn't you ask him why he didn't clarify?
Hey Meg - when Cythare asked about why you switched stances on AI, you said "read my posts more carefully and you'll have the answer". However, when Iso asks a similar question "why did you think AI was town" you told him why you switched. Why would you give that answer to Cythare yet fully explain to Iso?
zindabad has stated to me that the game is indeed full reveal on death.
Notes:
I still think Rhand has a solid head on his shoulders this game.
Manders busy is STILL not a universal scumtell.
Karn's 1086 is overreaching a bit.
I've been thinking for a while now that Iso doesn't actually think I'm scum. The way he pointed out my supposed slip then waited for someone else to explain it started me on that path. His 1088 continues to give me this impression with his "stop agreeing with me". It just feels so fake.
I don't remember Wildfire being pushy ever. 1100 seems out of character for him, in that case. Not inherently scummy, but odd.
Meg's STILL REQUIRE CONTENT FROM list seems overly helpful townie to me.
Stating the obvious is still not inherently a scumtell. In fact, I need to pour over the quote in 1109 thoroughly. I think Chris may be confbiasing a bit.
It's hard to have reads when you're not caught up, but ok.
I again find myself agreeing with DC3 in 1123, where he thinks Iso is being disingenuous.
hans's 1125 is quite nice. I like his points and questions in it.
I don't like Seppel's potshots without commitment.
Glad to see you're ok Hooker.
Meg's 1163... How does one suddenly be ok with a wagon without explaining it? Does not make sense to me.
Arian's 1163 just shat all over the townread I was having on him in the first 400ish posts. How does one justify "Ya know... KJ's post is in earnest... but it's too late. Can't go back now."
Seppel responds to Arian, but tells him to interact with people.
Rhand's 1171 is very townie, especially his view on Arian's post.
Arian wants to lynch town... But he's very up front about that. Odd.
Seppel's votecounts are overly helpful town, I think. I remember reading a game where I caught atlseal on his first post because he was scum keeping a running tally of votecounts in his posts. Therefore
I agree with Hooker's bolded people, except that Meg should be bolded and Ln should not in my list.
So Arian is being just as defeatist as AI? Interesting.
Aaaaaaaand Seppel wants to skip my claim. Yeah, he's not scum at all.
AI agrees? No surprise there.
And Iso!
---------------------------------------------
Questions:
LnGrrR: Why do you think seeing the logic in the points against you is a scummy thing to do?
Everyone: Have we voted to move yet? I'm still down to go to Ruchperion.
DC: You said I didn't quantify what about the position was suspicious. But directly before that, I said that it was because of the risk of outing abilities. I think I made that point earlier, but why not ask if you think I wasn't clear enough? The fact that you say I basically had no reason for the suspicion is suspicious.
Meg: Why do we need to change the claim range because of the nature of the roles?
----------------------------------------------
Scumspects (no particular order)
Iso
AI
Meg
Seppel
Maybe Des.
------------------------------------------------
Responses to things
He's being logical and game solvy. Just like he is in every game I've had him in. I've never seen a scum DC3.
I never have a decent read on him D1. In Deus Ex I thought he was scum for SO LONG then realized he wasn't. So, no. No insight whatsoever.
I didn't have any time.
You may need to break these up. I'm not connecting what these are refering to.
---------------------------------------------------
Mod:Votecount?
And don't pull that "I'm trying to stall" crap. My role is completely proveable.
By Day 3 you should have almost everyone's alignments figured out.
Does it prove that you're town or does it prove that you're claiming correctly?
Also yes we've moved to Ruchperion.
Also I was doing votecounts because Zindabad's votecounts are absolutely frustrating. They don't list who isn't voting and they come with absurd infrequency. And that's probably helping this day go so slowly: nobody knows who's voting who and nobody knows who isn't voting.
Off the top of anyone's head, do you know who isn't voting? I couldn't list everyone with absolute certainty.
First off, yes, we're locked in for Ruchperion already. No action needed there.
It's simple. If you'd been posting like this all along, I would likely be townreading you because that's how I'm used to you playing. But you didn't play like that until you were under heavy pressure (to the extent of being one of the leading wagons for the Day). Everyone's calling you out on what you aren't doing that you usually would be, so you say hey, maybe I can save myself and start posting better. That's what I mean when I said it's too little, too late.
----------
Also, I'm very upfront about being unconcerned if we lynch town because it's not a bad thing this game.
Consider:
There are two scenarios that Zindamod could be using:
A: Normal reveal -- we get alignments, role, etc
B: Low reveal -- we still get alignments at minimum
Now, recall that we'll get going to Ghostlands at some point. I forget the exact Day that I laid out in my plan, but it was somewhere around D3 or D4 iirc. On Ghostlands, dead players can talk. This means that everyone who has died up to that point is confirmed, regardless of which reveal it is. Everyone knows how powerful town!Seppel is once he gets going, so let's use Seppel as an example. Let's say on D2 we lynch Seppel (this is purely example). He flips town. Rats, we missed lynching scum. But! Seppel is now confirmed the next time we hear from him. No doubts, no questioning of motives, nothing. We know that he's in earnest. That's powerful. It's not as powerful as lynching scum, because that actually puts us closer to winning. But if we have a relative certainty that player X is scum, we lynch that player and they're town -- all that means is that we're storing a conf!town in a bank to be used later.
I've been saying for like two weeks that this Day seriously just needs to end. At this point, with that lens in mind, I really don't care who we lynch. I've said it before and I'll say it again: we need a flip and night actions to get the analysts rolling. We're not going to accomplish anything by dragging this Day out -- we haven't accomplished anything in weeks in general.
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
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If you can't figure out what points are relating to what, read what you direct to/about me in the post I quoted, and then read down the line of points I respond with.
And stop claim stalling.
No.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sounds good.
I'll
This post in combination with my gut scumread on Seppel makes me want to lynch Seppel badly lol.
Anyways, EtR seems to not come back and I don't want to lynch KJ, so
unvote, vote AI