So you're basically hedging your bets preemptively. "Iso could be scum so I'm voting him but OH HE MIGHT NOT BE". Please explain how this is a townie thing to do. If you don't even believe your case, why are you posting it?
I'm a little angry, honestly. I hate when there's a cool setup and I get run up early because then I inevitably can't take part in the later parts of the game since I will inevitably be lynched on Cyanosis (or just plain Iso paranoia) or in more traditional setups, Nightkilled for my claim. It's incredibly frustrating, and my play overall lately has been very lackluster. Plus, in an open setup, I can't exactly claim something wacky to evade suspicion, so...really, it's just a *****ty situation to be in, town or scum. At this point, I'm demotivated and I don't see that changing unless the momentum shifts elsewhere.
It's not like me to be defeatist, but I hope some of you can understand where I'm coming from, since this almost always invariably happens to me.
Do what you will. Maybe I'll come back in a day and re-read and re-examine what we've seen to give last reads. Or whatever.
The point being, I was making a case but then I thought of how silly people might think it sounded. It wasn't about being confident in me, it was being not confident about whether this inexpressible feeling I'm trying to convey through what I realized after posting seemed like poor examples. It felt like it was good enough at the time but after a few minutes I was like "...Iso's just going to tear this apart and throw this in my face" And then you did but not very well 0.o
It's not that "OH HE MIGHT NOT BE" it's more so "Why would anyone believe my rambling" >_>
---
Let's see who hasn't posted yet... Just Nacho? I don't have any other good reads. I wonder what else is on TV.
It's not like me to be defeatist, but I hope some of you can understand where I'm coming from, since this almost always invariably happens to me.
I decided to check the truth of this claim, that you always get lynched/killed early. I scanned through the MTGS completed game threads over the last year or so. These are the games that you've participated in, and your status:
Portal 2 - last to die
Mostly Mute Monk - survive to endgame
Pleasantville [Replacement] - survive to endgame
Iso’s Inflammable - survive to endgame
Drury Lane - survive to endgame
Majora’s Mask - lynched Day 1
Naked City - removed Night 1
Smalltown Swap [Replacement] - survive to endgame
Transcendental Orchestra - survive to endgame
Battle Factory - Killed Night 1
Amistara III - survive to endgame
Katawa Shoujo - Killed Night 2
So, out of 12 games, I see three where you die N1, one where you die N2, and eight games where you are either the last to die or survive the entire game. In summary, your claim is false, and feels like an attempt to appeal to emotions to get yourself out of pressure. Further, despite earlier talking about arranging wagons and all that - something that is quite important for us in order to win - you drop out with just "do what you will" instead of looking for scum. Even if you are certain you're going to get lynched, town!Iso should be at least trying to take scum with him.
vote Iso Votecount
That said, we should be careful at this point - Iso is at L-2 by my count. We still need to determine two additional scum-suspects, and there are questions that need answering.
So you're basically hedging your bets preemptively. "Iso could be scum so I'm voting him but OH HE MIGHT NOT BE". Please explain how this is a townie thing to do. If you don't even believe your case, why are you posting it?
I'm a little angry, honestly. I hate when there's a cool setup and I get run up early because then I inevitably can't take part in the later parts of the game since I will inevitably be lynched on Cyanosis (or just plain Iso paranoia) or in more traditional setups, Nightkilled for my claim. It's incredibly frustrating, and my play overall lately has been very lackluster. Plus, in an open setup, I can't exactly claim something wacky to evade suspicion, so...really, it's just a *****ty situation to be in, town or scum. At this point, I'm demotivated and I don't see that changing unless the momentum shifts elsewhere.
It's not like me to be defeatist, but I hope some of you can understand where I'm coming from, since this almost always invariably happens to me.
Do what you will. Maybe I'll come back in a day and re-read and re-examine what we've seen to give last reads. Or whatever.
Ciao for now.
This... does not read like Iso at all. As others have said, this comes off as scummy, but at the same time this reads as a major setup by someone.
I mean let's think about it. Iso has a point, him just BEING in a game brings about a major case of paranoia from everyone. This is something pretty much everyone would know going into this and would very likely be used against him by scum in order to force an early 2-3 deaths. I really think Kami is piling on here with his "research". It feels like he literally just did a scan of the death lists it appears and declared his claim is an outright lie.
@Kami, before you declare Iso an outright liar, mind doing me a HUGE favor and take a deeper look into Iso's games? I know in at least one (Polyopticon,) he was confirmed relatively early (Not alignment mind you, but definitely ability confirmed.) You also left out Drury Lane, which was another game where he took a lot of heat throughout most of the game and only lived as long as he did due to his claim. I want to see how many of the games he survived to lategame were due to him being either mod confirmed or some other sort of confirmed as opposed to just being in a PoE situation.
@Karn, I believe there is a huge unanswered question(s) in Posts 24 and 25 asking you to justify your reads. You seem to pretty much forget it in order to go after Iso for a bad #39 and #40. What actually makes said posts bad? Just seems like an easy excuse to hop on an Iso wagon ASAP, which again, I can see scum trying to do.
I'll add a couple of retired gimmick games to that Iso list above.
As Nny:
Walking Dead - Day 4 Lynch, Final Mafia
Sesame Street Mafia - Endgame Lynch (Day 5) - Town
----------
Currently working on a post on another game, will analyze what's going and add my voice to this soon.
I'll add a couple of retired gimmick games to that Iso list above.
As Nny:
Walking Dead - Day 4 Lynch, Final Mafia
Sesame Street Mafia - Endgame Lynch (Day 5) - Town
----------
Currently working on a post on another game, will analyze what's going and add my voice to this soon.
I don't see how this will help as they are gimmick games. The whole point is to prove that Iso is lynched/killed because he is Iso.
This... does not read like Iso at all. As others have said, this comes off as scummy, but at the same time this reads as a major setup by someone.
Setup in what sense?
I mean let's think about it. Iso has a point, him just BEING in a game brings about a major case of paranoia from everyone. This is something pretty much everyone would know going into this and would very likely be used against him by scum in order to force an early 2-3 deaths. I really think Kami is piling on here with his "research". It feels like he literally just did a scan of the death lists it appears and declared his claim is an outright lie.
@Kami, before you declare Iso an outright liar, mind doing me a HUGE favor and take a deeper look into Iso's games? I know in at least one (Polyopticon,) he was confirmed relatively early (Not alignment mind you, but definitely ability confirmed.) You also left out Drury Lane, which was another game where he took a lot of heat throughout most of the game and only lived as long as he did due to his claim. I want to see how many of the games he survived to lategame were due to him being either mod confirmed or some other sort of confirmed as opposed to just being in a PoE situation.
I don't think that matters. The claim was that he doesn't get to participate in lategames because he gets killed early. I don't care how he survives, whether it's by confirmation or not, the claim is false.
Incidentally, I can't find any reference to "Polyopticon" on the MTGS mafia forums, and Drury Lane is already in my list.
At this point, I'm demotivated and I don't see that changing unless the momentum shifts elsewhere.
You've been by far the most active so far, with over 20% of the posts in the thread, and now suddenly you're demotivated because of a little pressure?
No. I'm not demotivated "because of a little pressure". I'm demotivated because my play in Mafia has been pretty terrible in general as of late, and here it is getting me 4 votes within 48 hours of the beginning of a game. In Deus Ex, for example (a game you failed to mention), I replaced in as the Cop. My top 3 town reads were the SK and the 2 mafia, and my top 3 scum reads were an Innocent Child Mason and the 2 VT's. The only reason I survived as long as I did was because my reads were so off, despite me making the game-winning play, and because my predecessor was forced to claim on Day 1. Also, you missed Futurama in your count wherein I was BlueElectric (a gimmick that is widely known to be mine) and got killed Night 2. I'll continue this in response to your next quote.
It's not like me to be defeatist, but I hope some of you can understand where I'm coming from, since this almost always invariably happens to me.
I decided to check the truth of this claim, that you always get lynched/killed early. I scanned through the MTGS completed game threads over the last year or so. These are the games that you've participated in, and your status:
Portal 2 - last to die
Mostly Mute Monk - survive to endgame
Pleasantville [Replacement] - survive to endgame
Iso’s Inflammable - survive to endgame
Drury Lane - survive to endgame
Majora’s Mask - lynched Day 1
Naked City - removed Night 1
Smalltown Swap [Replacement] - survive to endgame
Transcendental Orchestra - survive to endgame
Battle Factory - Killed Night 1
Amistara III - survive to endgame
Katawa Shoujo - Killed Night 2
So, out of 12 games, I see three where you die N1, one where you die N2, and eight games where you are either the last to die or survive the entire game. In summary, your claim is false, and feels like an attempt to appeal to emotions to get yourself out of pressure. Further, despite earlier talking about arranging wagons and all that - something that is quite important for us in order to win - you drop out with just "do what you will" instead of looking for scum. Even if you are certain you're going to get lynched, town!Iso should be at least trying to take scum with him.
You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I said I almost always get run up early, which severely cripples my usefulness in the long run because then either the town just decides, "**** it, we can't take that chance" or the scum know exactly when they don't want me around anymore. Your "analysis" of the games also doesn't take into consideration the circumstances present in said games. Let me walk you through.
Portal 2: I was scum who counterclaimed my scumbuddy a Day after he claimed (I think I claimed Day 4) who claimed Tracker and only survived because I gave the town a "Really, guys? You're gonna listen to this guy?" speech (in regards to a townie who was on to me), and I was suspected by varying people all game - I was just able to be not so overtly scummy that an Iso wagon didn't happen until much later on. Incidentally, I'm much better at not getting run up early as scum.
MMM: I was scum who had a very strong claim (Cyan Goo) and very limited room in which to blab to get myself run up. Doesn't count.
Pleasantville: I replaced in as scum, turbobused my buddies, and then went to endgame having read absolutely none of the game prior. I probably only survived as long as I did for my turbobus and for my predecessor's claim on Day 1.
Iso's Inflammable - This game lasted 2 Days total and I was somehow a suspect from the beginning - mostly by Karn, I believe - though we did win. I also refused to claim in this game due to the nature of the setup.
Drury Lane - The only reason I didn't get lynched was for my claim (I think I was forced to claim Day 2? I don't recall) and because I wasn't willing to lynch one particular member of the scumteam until endgame.
Majora's Mask - I was actually Daykilled by the SK on Day 1 after I let on a little too much about my own role.
Naked City - I got Vigged after being forced to claim on Day 1. I would've eventually been lynched.
Smalltown Swap - This was a hard setup for the scum to work around, and my reads were pretty terrible so I wasn't a high priority target at all.
Dr. Polyopticon's Transcendental Orchestra - I intentionally toed the line here between scummy and townie to survive until I could fulfill my win condition. I think I was also forced to claim on Day 1 or 2.
Battle Factory - I claimed my role (Cop) Day 1 due to circumstances involving a poorly-playing townie and got Vigged by that townie for it. I won't say names, but they know who they are.
Amistaria III - Oh look another game where I got run up Day 1. I accidentally ran a gambit because I thought I had a Daykill (it was a 1-Shot Nightkill) and I had absolutely no credibility by the end of the Day. So while I Vigged scum on Night 1, I was still a lynch consideration up until the very end of the game (because I have Vigged my own scumbuddies before) and I was an insufferable jackass all of Day 1 - mostly due to my accidental gambit. We did eventually win that game, though.
Katawa Shoujo - I didn't get a chance to claim because Jey Vigged me on Night 2.
So, no - my claim is not false. While I survive to endgame a lot more than I used to, I almost always get run up early, which is really goddamn aggravating; especially when my play has been so horrendous for the past few months.
As for this: "Even if you are certain you're going to get lynched, town!Iso should be at least trying to take scum with him." I did say that I would be checking in later to give my thoughts. Did you miss that, or did you intentionally omit it?
So you're basically hedging your bets preemptively. "Iso could be scum so I'm voting him but OH HE MIGHT NOT BE". Please explain how this is a townie thing to do. If you don't even believe your case, why are you posting it?
I'm a little angry, honestly. I hate when there's a cool setup and I get run up early because then I inevitably can't take part in the later parts of the game since I will inevitably be lynched on Cyanosis (or just plain Iso paranoia) or in more traditional setups, Nightkilled for my claim. It's incredibly frustrating, and my play overall lately has been very lackluster. Plus, in an open setup, I can't exactly claim something wacky to evade suspicion, so...really, it's just a *****ty situation to be in, town or scum. At this point, I'm demotivated and I don't see that changing unless the momentum shifts elsewhere.
It's not like me to be defeatist, but I hope some of you can understand where I'm coming from, since this almost always invariably happens to me.
Do what you will. Maybe I'll come back in a day and re-read and re-examine what we've seen to give last reads. Or whatever.
Ciao for now.
This... does not read like Iso at all. As others have said, this comes off as scummy, but at the same time this reads as a major setup by someone.
I mean let's think about it. Iso has a point, him just BEING in a game brings about a major case of paranoia from everyone. This is something pretty much everyone would know going into this and would very likely be used against him by scum in order to force an early 2-3 deaths. I really think Kami is piling on here with his "research". It feels like he literally just did a scan of the death lists it appears and declared his claim is an outright lie.
@Kami, before you declare Iso an outright liar, mind doing me a HUGE favor and take a deeper look into Iso's games? I know in at least one (Polyopticon,) he was confirmed relatively early (Not alignment mind you, but definitely ability confirmed.) You also left out Drury Lane, which was another game where he took a lot of heat throughout most of the game and only lived as long as he did due to his claim. I want to see how many of the games he survived to lategame were due to him being either mod confirmed or some other sort of confirmed as opposed to just being in a PoE situation.
Already did it for him.
Quote from Tanarin »
@Karn, I believe there is a huge unanswered question(s) in Posts 24 and 25 asking you to justify your reads. You seem to pretty much forget it in order to go after Iso for a bad #39 and #40. What actually makes said posts bad? Just seems like an easy excuse to hop on an Iso wagon ASAP, which again, I can see scum trying to do.
shamelessly /barning this
Quote from KamikazeArchon »
Incidentally, I can't find any reference to "Polyopticon" on the MTGS mafia forums, and Drury Lane is already in my list.
Dr. Polyopticon's Transcendental Orchestra. (And as I mentioned, you missed Deus Ex and Futurama.)
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm a little angry, honestly. I hate when there's a cool setup and I get run up early because then I inevitably can't take part in the later parts of the game since I will inevitably be lynched on Cyanosis (or just plain Iso paranoia) or in more traditional setups, Nightkilled for my claim.
It can't be the second so you're implying it's the first.
I vigged you night 3 in Katawwa Shoujo, but details meattails sheeptails fishtails DRAGONTALES!?
Iso's latest post adds a huge pile of 'null' to my reads. AKA the balance hasn't tipped in any direction more thoroughly as a result.
Actually, I have a weird idea.
A lot of people admitted on sainting Karn immediately, right? I don't particularly like his behavior (I know I said town Karn but that was before he blatantly ignored quite a lot of stuff which is not like I've seen him - he's quick to address every minor detail thrown in his way from what I've experienced) so I think there's quite a lot of information to garnish on his lynch. Consciously not moving my vote but let's make this a discussion. Let's say we all simultaneously voted right this instant the hammer died if we lynched Karn. It's early in the game, but what would that say? Does this change if two people died?
I don't think it changes much, there's no vital push on Karn but perhaps a pope is trying not to draw too much attention. I'd say the person sitting on the sidelines or the most neutral comment on Karn would be the most suspicious.
@Karn: The opening post said the pope team were sending in targets before this Day started. Essentially a Night start game, saint points already distributed before things got started.
As for this: "Even if you are certain you're going to get lynched, town!Iso should be at least trying to take scum with him." I did say that I would be checking in later to give my thoughts. Did you miss that, or did you intentionally omit it?
Saying you're going to do it is not the same thing as doing it. Your first major post after coming back is still defending yourself, not scumhunting.
Karn - I had the same gut reaction to 21 off your early posting.
Wheat - He was strong in his early posting and I sense that the pope's want to sit back a little in this game.
I was really happy with the Iso wagon up until Jey unvoted in 75/76. The whole let's vote Karn because people said they'd saint him makes no sense. I'm half wondering whether Jey/Iso are buddies and this wagon started out a distancing attempt that went too far, too fast.
Oh and one more thing:
@Xyre - Is self voting allowed in this setup?
If so I think the Day 1 lynch self hammering could have some benefits. Thought?
I doubt self voting would be allowed in such a setup. Even if it is, I don't see how that helps. If it's scum, then we're guaranteed there's no saint points either way. If it's town and they're a saint, I would expect the saint kill to just go to the L-1 vote.
We could say that refusal to self-hammer indicates scum, but that's a "witches' test" - if they're willing to die they're innocent, but they're already dead, and if they're not willing to die they're guilty and we kill them anyway. Doesn't really provide a useful tell.
I would saint Sir Karn, two points, each night, up through Night 2 (so six total) and aggressively pursue his lynch Day 3 for the win if the other Pope was still alive. That way I can work on setting up Karn and win the game in one fell swoop.
Anyone else see a flaw in this plan?
iRebel; why would Karn be the choice for this role?
So instead of pointing out whatever flaw you see, you appeal to everyone else to see if they see it before attempting to pursue it?
Vote: JosephAloisiusRatzinger
Hi scum. Plz die.
#16, Kamikaze: Why didn’t you name players when answering Iso’s question?
#27, Wheat: Good post is good. I agree with his logic here.
#33, Iso: I was going to ask the same question in my first post, and you beat me to it.
I dislike Jey’s attempt to meta Iso.
Hey Iso, is Void town or scum?
/barn Tanarin re: Kamikaze, #63. I’m happy to lynch Kamikaze right now too.
I don’t understand this Iso wagon. Jey’s meta argument is absolutely terrible. Iso’s #39 and 40 might be scummy, but they’re also very Iso, which makes it a null overall to me. Iso’s angry rant certainly isn’t what I’d expect from Iso, but emotion is, again, a null.
tl;dr, Iso wagon is *****, get off it folks.
Karn riding Iso’s ass is SOP, and if memory serves Karn, did the same avoiding questions bit in the past. I’m not sold on Karn as scum at this junction.
But JosephAloisiusRatzinger and KamikazeArchon?
Totes scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I'm liking my vote on Shockwave. Since the vote his posts have done nothing to sway me away from believing that he might be a Pope.
I'm unimpressed by Iso's reaction to my vote on Shockwave. The reaction as whole is more trying to discredit my vote based on faulty information rather than addressing why the vote might be bad. I'm giving pause to the Iso wagon due to the speed of the wagon though.
I don't see why Karn is getting votes this early. Karn is being Karn. We will have more information about him come Tomorrow. I would much rather risk a Pope Karn being around Day 2 than lynching a possible Town Karn on Day 1.
The unvote from Wheat Grinder is telling me that he knows more about Iso than what he is actually saying. I understand not wanting to take the risk of a possible quick hammer if Iso had been sainted, but there is now way to know that information for certain, but yet Wheat Grinder still saw the need to unvote Iso.
Wheat Grinder:
Why would you unvote Iso if there was a possible quick hammer to catch a Pope?
iRebel: I didn't name names because I just came back from a two-year hiatus from Mafia and I don't actually know who currently has a "scummy meta". Is that your reason for calling me scum? And are you voting JAR over a single post or do you have deeper reasoning?
@Jey: Is Iso scum? How certain are you? I'm getting mixed messages.
@iRebel: Why is JAR scum from that?
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
@Jey: Is Iso scum? How certain are you? I'm getting mixed messages.
@iRebel: Why is JAR scum from that?
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
I agree that JAR has been staying on the sidelines a lot this game.
Since so many people are saying "Karn is being Karn", perhaps someone could explain what that means in this context? Does he usually have low-content/low-reasoning play in general? Void, why do you put so much weight on a Town Karn specifically - as opposed to just not wanting to mislynch town?
@Jey: Is Iso scum? How certain are you? I'm getting mixed messages.
@iRebel: Why is JAR scum from that?
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
I agree that JAR has been staying on the sidelines a lot this game.
Since so many people are saying "Karn is being Karn", perhaps someone could explain what that means in this context? Does he usually have low-content/low-reasoning play in general? Void, why do you put so much weight on a Town Karn specifically - as opposed to just not wanting to mislynch town?
I have high-reasoning that I wait a bit to reveal.
@Jey: Is Iso scum? How certain are you? I'm getting mixed messages.
@iRebel: Why is JAR scum from that?
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
I disagree. He's just measuring reactions and waiting a bit to reveal. Reminds me of something...
You're being very OMGUSy, but I don't think you're a pope.
Sensitive much? Dunno if you just admitted being scum, or are just that over-reactionary. Either way, I am comfortable with my vote right here. Much info can be gathered from this wagon.
Starts with lols, then says a very generic "Much info can be gathered from this wagon." for no apparent reason. Why would this wagon gather more info than any other wagon? Who knows. I bet Tanarin doesn't.
As for how to handle the lynch, I think day one we SHOULD be alright either A) forcing the scummiest person not being lynched to be the hammer, or B) Let the wagon progress naturally. Both methods will yield more info than babysitting the wagon ever will. Come day 2, we really do need to consider wagon lynch order though as the possibility of a 4 town death does exist.
I was about to post that lynching mafia D1 reduces it to 3 town deaths max, then I reread the opening post and realized that might not be true.
Mod: Could we get a clarification - if we lynch one Pope, does the other pope still get the ability to Saintify two people, or is it one saint per pope?
This sounds like Kamikaze talking to/with buddy!Tanarin.
Either way, I am comfortable with my vote right here. Much info can be gathered from this wagon.
These sentences are starting to bother me. The first one is self-conscious. And the second one - why would you tip off scum about where you're looking for info?
The Karn-Tanarin interaction in general could be an early mutual bus, setting up an early confrontation to try to get cred for the survivor if either gets lynched.
Iso: You said you like me and Wheat. Why?
Jey: Do you have any reasoning other than intuition for your reads?
>Sets up the opportunity to bus his buddy, and get a lynch on me after Tanarin flips pope.
@Jey: Is Iso scum? How certain are you? I'm getting mixed messages.
@iRebel: Why is JAR scum from that?
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
I agree that JAR has been staying on the sidelines a lot this game.
It's ******* post 88 and some people haven't even posted yet. How can you say he's "sitting on the sidelines A LOT"?
You're smearing, just like with your next paragraph against me.
Quote from Kamikaze »
Since so many people are saying "Karn is being Karn", perhaps someone could explain what that means in this context? Does he usually have low-content/low-reasoning play in general? Void, why do you put so much weight on a Town Karn specifically - as opposed to just not wanting to mislynch town?
"low-reasoning"
Laughable.
If I'm making such strong statements I obviously have reasoning.
----------------
The thing that's conflicting me this game is that I found such great connections for a Kamikaze/Tanarin team, but Iso is being so outright scummy that it's outrageous. Even starting with Iso's first post where he mimics his play from the last Experimental setup in order to attempt to look town (like he was last time) without having to actually work for it, to 39/40 which are just plain terrible and anyone should see that, to when he says he's suddenly demotivated and rants after he gets a couple of votes.
I think an Iso/Kamikaze team could also be it.
With stuff like:
I'm interested in hearing Karn's justification for the [Kamikaze]Archon read.
And Iso saying he likes Kamikaze for town. Then Kamikaze not wanting to just leave a blank townread from scumpartner there (because a pretty universally scummy thing to do is give a read on your buddy but not give reasoning - this shows up so so very often) asks for reasoning for that. Yet Iso cannot give the reasoning; in this case he says he's just waiting (in order to get out of it).
OOG: Starting Monday, I will be working at my new & first ever full time job! Thus, I will be considerably less active from then on, but I'm not going to need a V/LA or anything (I hope).
[I'm going to be a Junior Java Developer for a small local company, in case anyone was curious]
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@Bolly No one else stands out. I was actually going to mention in this post, as far as reads go, I'm definitely going to need to re-read already more carefully and maybe wait another day before I place any strong feelings of alignment on anyone.
I was really happy with the Iso wagon up until Jey unvoted in 75/76. The whole let's vote Karn because people said they'd saint him makes no sense. I'm half wondering whether Jey/Iso are buddies and this wagon started out a distancing attempt that went too far, too fast.
Oh and one more thing:
@Xyre - Is self voting allowed in this setup?
If so I think the Day 1 lynch self hammering could have some benefits. Thought?
Why does me unvoting (because I sincerely do not think we need a lynch this quickly, we wouldn't gain nearly as much info now than if we waited for another one-two hundred posts or so) make you unhappy?
The self-hammering thing doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on why.
If my voice means anything on the matter I think I'd prefer that one cannot vote for themselves in this setup. The town gets an advantage of this works out the way JAR put it, but that just seems silly to me.
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I like Kamikaze's #81.
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iRebel's #82 definitely makes me want to re-read even more now. I see your issue with JAR, but wanting to lynch Kamikaze feels surprising to me.
Want to be a little more specific?
(It's fine you think Iso wagon is garbage, I have a feeling that if he deserves to get Lynched, he will get lynched regardless of my own thoughts.)
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@Wheat: I think he's scum. My uncertainty is in my ability to prove it. I'm willing to hold off on Iso though, since I don't need to convince myself of anything else.
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Why am I not buying anything Karn is saying about Kamikaze? I'll have to work on that.
@Bolly No one else stands out. I was actually going to mention in this post, as far as reads go, I'm definitely going to need to re-read already more carefully and maybe wait another day before I place any strong feelings of alignment on anyone.
Before I can* place any strong feelings of alignment on anyone.
@Karn: OK... so you jump on me for voting you when it is the 2nd post in the game. How did you know I was not making an RVS post? As I said in my next post, you were really sensitive to my vote. Also, you then go and basically ignore Kami's question to you. Why are you afraid to answer a legitimate question addressed to you? Also, why imply that a scum!me would talk in thread to a scum!kami? Last I checked, the scum have a quicktime they can use at any time, thus would have no need to even post something like what you accuse of being scum talking to scum in thread.
Also Barn Kami #93. You seem to be really setting up a Kami lynch, but yet don't want to commit to it. Possible scumbuddy much?
@Kami RE #66: I mean setup as in scum is going to KNOW there will be a mass amount of paranoia around Iso (Especially with the lack of any night kill.) A halfway competent scum team would love to take him out early, and would likely be able to get away with it because Iso is Iso. And using "because Iso" would be a valid excuse for a lynch on him for a person to use. We all know Iso does a lot of stuff that could be seen as scummy on others but would not be scummy for Iso.
As for read, I am reading him as town. Very frustrated town, but town.
It is, but not the way you want it to. Only living players can be blown up, so the player voting himself will be skipped over.[/quote]
That actually is quite useful to know. That now means we can't force the lynchee to self hammer (For risk of carrying on the saint blowup too far.) JAR earns some town points in my book. I see no reason at all for scum to be asking this question in public, especially since self hammer has been proposed as a possible lynch solution IIRC.
a Town Karn is a very powerful ally to have. His Day 1 play typically does not give hints about his alignment because it's virtually the same across the board.
@Karn:
Wheaties is Town? Unvote Good enough for me for now.
Still not interested in voting Iso though.
Bolly:
Begin discussing the flaw. I don't want to play a waiting game for something that I did not see. Do you see flaws in other plans? I find that question pointless since you should be wanting to bring this discussion forward rather than waiting on a response from someone else.
Also, even if there are other flaws in the plans does not mean that every player will pick up on the flaw(s).
The unvote from Wheat Grinder is telling me that he knows more about Iso than what he is actually saying. I understand not wanting to take the risk of a possible quick hammer if Iso had been sainted, but there is now way to know that information for certain, but yet Wheat Grinder still saw the need to unvote Iso.
Wheat Grinder:
Why would you unvote Iso if there was a possible quick hammer to catch a Pope?
Sorry to be the onigashima in your fairyland, but I never unvoted Iso.
If I do, it'll only be to vote Jey instead. I'm 100% certain one of the two but not both are scum.
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
@Wheat: I think he's scum. My uncertainty is in my ability to prove it. I'm willing to hold off on Iso though, since I don't need to convince myself of anything else.
but why
Quote from JeY k »
Why am I not buying anything Karn is saying about Kamikaze? I'll have to work on that.
I want to know why you are not buying what Karn is saying too.
@JAR I haven't lost any confidence in Iso, I just want to see what other work I can get done before today is over. I wasn't saying to lynch Karn, I was asking everyone what their thoughts would be if that were to 'suddenly happen'. Reread the statement a little more carefully.
As for not being happy about having an advantage, that's not quite it. It wouldn't feel right to abuse that mechanic. I dont know. I want to win but not by being cheap? I think it's considered cheap.
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@Bolly She, and I was dicking around saying I'd saint Iso for lulz. Thinking back, I probably would've just relied on my scumbuddy to give me a rundown of some individual player metas and I would take a backseat, since I'm still fairly new to this game (Mafia in general). If I didn't have a reliable scumbuddy, I'd just wing it.
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@The WHEAT wheat WhEaT: I just said this, but I don't need Iso lynched right this minute. I went after him and built momentum, yes it was faster than I expected, but I've already said I'm not ready toe nd the day yet. We could get so much more information from wagons if we encourage more discussion. I already proclaimed my thoughts, stated my rather lame set of evidence, and comissioned my thoughts on Iso's play, what more do I need? I'm convinced I've found scum, but I want there to be more information to analyze from the lynch, and how would I get that from actively pursuing him even further? I honestly don't knwo what you're trying to ask here.
As for Karn, I feel like he's saying all this stuff on Kamikaze 'for the sake of it', I don't feel the essence of a legitimate push behind his argument. That's why I don't buy it.
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Not sure why everyone is so hyped up about the iRebel thing. I don't forsee anything useful to arrive from cracking it open and digging through it.
As for Karn, I feel like he's saying all this stuff on Kamikaze 'for the sake of it', I don't feel the essence of a legitimate push behind his argument. That's why I don't buy it.
What makes my stuff about Kamikaze feel different and less legitimate than the stuff I've said about Iso and Tanarin, which you seem perfectly fine with?
I mostly rolled my eyes when I read anything from you about Tanarin, but it didn't make me concerned; basically felt very strong 'null'. You've pretty much repeated what others have been saying for Iso, nothing to point out there.
Your block on Kamikaze is what made me more concerned. It almost feels forced, not quite, but what's the significance?
So, if Kamikaze flipped town, what would be your stance on Tanarin? What if Tanarin flipped town, what would be your stance on Kamikaze? You have them set up as buddies, but do they hold merit as scum individually? Who is more likely to be scum?
And you are still not answering any questions, Karn.
Anyway, I was thinking. I know the mafia bible says to look for scummy behavior, but this is definitely a different style of mafia than most of us are used to. I am wondering if maybe we need to look for some sure TOWN in the group as opposed to scum. Wheat is definitely on the right track with the fact that we NEED to establish 2-3 players that can't be town, and then exploit that fact. Not only would this make the town's possible scum pool smaller, but also make the scum's possible saint targets smaller as well.
And you are still not answering any questions, Karn.
Anyway, I was thinking. I know the mafia bible says to look for scummy behavior, but this is definitely a different style of mafia than most of us are used to. I am wondering if maybe we need to look for some sure TOWN in the group as opposed to scum. Wheat is definitely on the right track with the fact that we NEED to establish 2-3 players that can't be town, and then exploit that fact. Not only would this make the town's possible scum pool smaller, but also make the scum's possible saint targets smaller as well.
Thoughts?
Not sure I entirely follow! How would establishing players who can't be town whittle the pools of-- Nevermind, that makes sense now, but wouldn't whittling the saint targets be a high-risk high-reward strategy? Smaller pool of saint targets would mean high deathcount for town? Unless you plan to make the scumpool hammer so that they effectively kill themselves by our hand?
And you are still not answering any questions, Karn.
Anyway, I was thinking. I know the mafia bible says to look for scummy behavior, but this is definitely a different style of mafia than most of us are used to. I am wondering if maybe we need to look for some sure TOWN in the group as opposed to scum. Wheat is definitely on the right track with the fact that we NEED to establish 2-3 players that can't be town, and then exploit that fact. Not only would this make the town's possible scum pool smaller, but also make the scum's possible saint targets smaller as well.
Thoughts?
Not sure I entirely follow! How would establishing players who can't be town whittle the pools of-- Nevermind, that makes sense now, but wouldn't whittling the saint targets be a high-risk high-reward strategy? Smaller pool of saint targets would mean high deathcount for town? Unless you plan to make the scumpool hammer so that they effectively kill themselves by our hand?
That would be the basic intent of all this. We keep the safe pile out of the votes as long as we can, or if anything make sure the safe pile is at the beginning of the wagon where we KNOW the saint count will not be an issue. I mean we already are planning on having our 2nd and third top scumsuspects be at the end of any wagon anyway. No reason not to keep a pool of reserves so to speak who won't vote (Unless they really need to, we can still afford 5 people not voting for anyone at this point in the game.)
And you are still not answering any questions, Karn.
Anyway, I was thinking. I know the mafia bible says to look for scummy behavior, but this is definitely a different style of mafia than most of us are used to. I am wondering if maybe we need to look for some sure TOWN in the group as opposed to scum. Wheat is definitely on the right track with the fact that we NEED to establish 2-3 players that can't be town, and then exploit that fact. Not only would this make the town's possible scum pool smaller, but also make the scum's possible saint targets smaller as well.
Thoughts?
I strongly dislike this idea. In this setup, we can't clear anyone as town via mechanics, and clearing via reads is super dangerous. If the town as a whole marks someone as scum and is wrong, that's just one mislynch - if we mark someone as town and are wrong, that is a near-guaranteed loss, because that's a scum that will skate to endgame. No matter how townie someone might appear at the moment, we must always be willing to re-evaluate them in light of new information as it comes up.
Further, "townhunting" doesn't give as much useful information as scumhunting. A big chunk of useful info is generated from reactions under pressure. Sniffing out and following up on scum suspects increases pressure; marking people as town decreases pressure. It should not be our primary focus.
Sounds like you're claiming scum to me.
Highly unlike you =(
The point being, I was making a case but then I thought of how silly people might think it sounded. It wasn't about being confident in me, it was being not confident about whether this inexpressible feeling I'm trying to convey through what I realized after posting seemed like poor examples. It felt like it was good enough at the time but after a few minutes I was like "...Iso's just going to tear this apart and throw this in my face" And then you did but not very well 0.o
It's not that "OH HE MIGHT NOT BE" it's more so "Why would anyone believe my rambling" >_>
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Let's see who hasn't posted yet... Just Nacho? I don't have any other good reads. I wonder what else is on TV.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Portal 2 - last to die
Mostly Mute Monk - survive to endgame
Pleasantville [Replacement] - survive to endgame
Iso’s Inflammable - survive to endgame
Drury Lane - survive to endgame
Majora’s Mask - lynched Day 1
Naked City - removed Night 1
Smalltown Swap [Replacement] - survive to endgame
Transcendental Orchestra - survive to endgame
Battle Factory - Killed Night 1
Amistara III - survive to endgame
Katawa Shoujo - Killed Night 2
So, out of 12 games, I see three where you die N1, one where you die N2, and eight games where you are either the last to die or survive the entire game. In summary, your claim is false, and feels like an attempt to appeal to emotions to get yourself out of pressure. Further, despite earlier talking about arranging wagons and all that - something that is quite important for us in order to win - you drop out with just "do what you will" instead of looking for scum. Even if you are certain you're going to get lynched, town!Iso should be at least trying to take scum with him.
vote Iso
Votecount
That said, we should be careful at this point - Iso is at L-2 by my count. We still need to determine two additional scum-suspects, and there are questions that need answering.
This... does not read like Iso at all. As others have said, this comes off as scummy, but at the same time this reads as a major setup by someone.
I mean let's think about it. Iso has a point, him just BEING in a game brings about a major case of paranoia from everyone. This is something pretty much everyone would know going into this and would very likely be used against him by scum in order to force an early 2-3 deaths. I really think Kami is piling on here with his "research". It feels like he literally just did a scan of the death lists it appears and declared his claim is an outright lie.
@Kami, before you declare Iso an outright liar, mind doing me a HUGE favor and take a deeper look into Iso's games? I know in at least one (Polyopticon,) he was confirmed relatively early (Not alignment mind you, but definitely ability confirmed.) You also left out Drury Lane, which was another game where he took a lot of heat throughout most of the game and only lived as long as he did due to his claim. I want to see how many of the games he survived to lategame were due to him being either mod confirmed or some other sort of confirmed as opposed to just being in a PoE situation.
@Karn, I believe there is a huge unanswered question(s) in Posts 24 and 25 asking you to justify your reads. You seem to pretty much forget it in order to go after Iso for a bad #39 and #40. What actually makes said posts bad? Just seems like an easy excuse to hop on an Iso wagon ASAP, which again, I can see scum trying to do.
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Walking Dead - Day 4 Lynch, Final Mafia
Sesame Street Mafia - Endgame Lynch (Day 5) - Town
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Currently working on a post on another game, will analyze what's going and add my voice to this soon.
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I don't see how this will help as they are gimmick games. The whole point is to prove that Iso is lynched/killed because he is Iso.
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Incidentally, I can't find any reference to "Polyopticon" on the MTGS mafia forums, and Drury Lane is already in my list.
So. What's your actual read on Iso?
(7 to lynch)
Sir Karn - 2 (Tanarin, Iso)
Iso - 5 (Wheat Grinder, JeY k, JAR, Sir Karn, KamikazeArchon)
Wheat - 1 (Shockwave)
JAR - 1 (Bolly)
Shockwave - 1 (Void)
Not Voting: Nachomamma8, iRebel
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FOS Count
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Nachomamma hasn't posted yet, and has been gone for three days now. I'll keep an eye on him.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
spoiler alert
The reason you're getting lynched is not Cyanosis.
No. I'm not demotivated "because of a little pressure". I'm demotivated because my play in Mafia has been pretty terrible in general as of late, and here it is getting me 4 votes within 48 hours of the beginning of a game. In Deus Ex, for example (a game you failed to mention), I replaced in as the Cop. My top 3 town reads were the SK and the 2 mafia, and my top 3 scum reads were an Innocent Child Mason and the 2 VT's. The only reason I survived as long as I did was because my reads were so off, despite me making the game-winning play, and because my predecessor was forced to claim on Day 1. Also, you missed Futurama in your count wherein I was BlueElectric (a gimmick that is widely known to be mine) and got killed Night 2. I'll continue this in response to your next quote.
You're misrepresenting what I'm saying. I said I almost always get run up early, which severely cripples my usefulness in the long run because then either the town just decides, "**** it, we can't take that chance" or the scum know exactly when they don't want me around anymore. Your "analysis" of the games also doesn't take into consideration the circumstances present in said games. Let me walk you through.
Portal 2: I was scum who counterclaimed my scumbuddy a Day after he claimed (I think I claimed Day 4) who claimed Tracker and only survived because I gave the town a "Really, guys? You're gonna listen to this guy?" speech (in regards to a townie who was on to me), and I was suspected by varying people all game - I was just able to be not so overtly scummy that an Iso wagon didn't happen until much later on. Incidentally, I'm much better at not getting run up early as scum.
MMM: I was scum who had a very strong claim (Cyan Goo) and very limited room in which to blab to get myself run up. Doesn't count.
Pleasantville: I replaced in as scum, turbobused my buddies, and then went to endgame having read absolutely none of the game prior. I probably only survived as long as I did for my turbobus and for my predecessor's claim on Day 1.
Iso's Inflammable - This game lasted 2 Days total and I was somehow a suspect from the beginning - mostly by Karn, I believe - though we did win. I also refused to claim in this game due to the nature of the setup.
Drury Lane - The only reason I didn't get lynched was for my claim (I think I was forced to claim Day 2? I don't recall) and because I wasn't willing to lynch one particular member of the scumteam until endgame.
Majora's Mask - I was actually Daykilled by the SK on Day 1 after I let on a little too much about my own role.
Naked City - I got Vigged after being forced to claim on Day 1. I would've eventually been lynched.
Smalltown Swap - This was a hard setup for the scum to work around, and my reads were pretty terrible so I wasn't a high priority target at all.
Dr. Polyopticon's Transcendental Orchestra - I intentionally toed the line here between scummy and townie to survive until I could fulfill my win condition. I think I was also forced to claim on Day 1 or 2.
Battle Factory - I claimed my role (Cop) Day 1 due to circumstances involving a poorly-playing townie and got Vigged by that townie for it. I won't say names, but they know who they are.
Amistaria III - Oh look another game where I got run up Day 1. I accidentally ran a gambit because I thought I had a Daykill (it was a 1-Shot Nightkill) and I had absolutely no credibility by the end of the Day. So while I Vigged scum on Night 1, I was still a lynch consideration up until the very end of the game (because I have Vigged my own scumbuddies before) and I was an insufferable jackass all of Day 1 - mostly due to my accidental gambit. We did eventually win that game, though.
Katawa Shoujo - I didn't get a chance to claim because Jey Vigged me on Night 2.
So, no - my claim is not false. While I survive to endgame a lot more than I used to, I almost always get run up early, which is really goddamn aggravating; especially when my play has been so horrendous for the past few months.
As for this: "Even if you are certain you're going to get lynched, town!Iso should be at least trying to take scum with him." I did say that I would be checking in later to give my thoughts. Did you miss that, or did you intentionally omit it?
Already did it for him.
shamelessly /barning this
Dr. Polyopticon's Transcendental Orchestra. (And as I mentioned, you missed Deus Ex and Futurama.)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I didn't say it was - not presently, anyway. (not sure how I missed this)
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
It can't be the second so you're implying it's the first.
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I vigged you night 3 in Katawwa Shoujo, but details meattails sheeptails fishtails DRAGONTALES!?
Iso's latest post adds a huge pile of 'null' to my reads. AKA the balance hasn't tipped in any direction more thoroughly as a result.
Actually, I have a weird idea.
A lot of people admitted on sainting Karn immediately, right? I don't particularly like his behavior (I know I said town Karn but that was before he blatantly ignored quite a lot of stuff which is not like I've seen him - he's quick to address every minor detail thrown in his way from what I've experienced) so I think there's quite a lot of information to garnish on his lynch. Consciously not moving my vote but let's make this a discussion. Let's say we all simultaneously voted right this instant the hammer died if we lynched Karn. It's early in the game, but what would that say? Does this change if two people died?
I don't think it changes much, there's no vital push on Karn but perhaps a pope is trying not to draw too much attention. I'd say the person sitting on the sidelines or the most neutral comment on Karn would be the most suspicious.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Unvote
FoS: Iso
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Read the rules!
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Then what do you think the reason is?
I doubt self voting would be allowed in such a setup. Even if it is, I don't see how that helps. If it's scum, then we're guaranteed there's no saint points either way. If it's town and they're a saint, I would expect the saint kill to just go to the L-1 vote.
We could say that refusal to self-hammer indicates scum, but that's a "witches' test" - if they're willing to die they're innocent, but they're already dead, and if they're not willing to die they're guilty and we kill them anyway. Doesn't really provide a useful tell.
So instead of pointing out whatever flaw you see, you appeal to everyone else to see if they see it before attempting to pursue it?
Vote: JosephAloisiusRatzinger
Hi scum. Plz die.
#16, Kamikaze: Why didn’t you name players when answering Iso’s question?
#27, Wheat: Good post is good. I agree with his logic here.
#33, Iso: I was going to ask the same question in my first post, and you beat me to it.
I dislike Jey’s attempt to meta Iso.
Hey Iso, is Void town or scum?
/barn Tanarin re: Kamikaze, #63. I’m happy to lynch Kamikaze right now too.
I don’t understand this Iso wagon. Jey’s meta argument is absolutely terrible. Iso’s #39 and 40 might be scummy, but they’re also very Iso, which makes it a null overall to me. Iso’s angry rant certainly isn’t what I’d expect from Iso, but emotion is, again, a null.
tl;dr, Iso wagon is *****, get off it folks.
Karn riding Iso’s ass is SOP, and if memory serves Karn, did the same avoiding questions bit in the past. I’m not sold on Karn as scum at this junction.
But JosephAloisiusRatzinger and KamikazeArchon?
Totes scum.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
@iRebel: Why is JAR scum from that?
I'm unimpressed by Iso's reaction to my vote on Shockwave. The reaction as whole is more trying to discredit my vote based on faulty information rather than addressing why the vote might be bad. I'm giving pause to the Iso wagon due to the speed of the wagon though.
I don't see why Karn is getting votes this early. Karn is being Karn. We will have more information about him come Tomorrow. I would much rather risk a Pope Karn being around Day 2 than lynching a possible Town Karn on Day 1.
The unvote from Wheat Grinder is telling me that he knows more about Iso than what he is actually saying. I understand not wanting to take the risk of a possible quick hammer if Iso had been sainted, but there is now way to know that information for certain, but yet Wheat Grinder still saw the need to unvote Iso.
Wheat Grinder:
Why would you unvote Iso if there was a possible quick hammer to catch a Pope?
unvote
Vote: Wheat Grinder
I'm still willing to vote for Shockwave.
Because there's no reason to for JAR to not point out whatever flaw(s) he saw in my response to Iso unless he is nervous about doing so (because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself). So instead of pointing it out he leads with a question to see if anyone else agrees with him before deciding whether or not to stick his neck out. It's scummy as hell.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
Since so many people are saying "Karn is being Karn", perhaps someone could explain what that means in this context? Does he usually have low-content/low-reasoning play in general? Void, why do you put so much weight on a Town Karn specifically - as opposed to just not wanting to mislynch town?
I have high-reasoning that I wait a bit to reveal.
I disagree. He's just measuring reactions and waiting a bit to reveal. Reminds me of something...
You're being very OMGUSy, but I don't think you're a pope.
Wheat is town.
Tanarin should know that I know that. Thus it felt like Tanarin was just taking the easiest possible route of hopping onto someone (me).
Kamikaze defends Tanarin in an indirect way, and attempts to make me look bad with word like "pouncing".
Starts with lols, then says a very generic "Much info can be gathered from this wagon." for no apparent reason. Why would this wagon gather more info than any other wagon? Who knows. I bet Tanarin doesn't.
This sounds like Kamikaze talking to/with buddy!Tanarin.
>Sets up the opportunity to bus his buddy, and get a lynch on me after Tanarin flips pope.
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It's ******* post 88 and some people haven't even posted yet. How can you say he's "sitting on the sidelines A LOT"?
You're smearing, just like with your next paragraph against me.
"low-reasoning"
Laughable.
If I'm making such strong statements I obviously have reasoning.
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The thing that's conflicting me this game is that I found such great connections for a Kamikaze/Tanarin team, but Iso is being so outright scummy that it's outrageous. Even starting with Iso's first post where he mimics his play from the last Experimental setup in order to attempt to look town (like he was last time) without having to actually work for it, to 39/40 which are just plain terrible and anyone should see that, to when he says he's suddenly demotivated and rants after he gets a couple of votes.
I think an Iso/Kamikaze team could also be it.
With stuff like:
And Iso saying he likes Kamikaze for town. Then Kamikaze not wanting to just leave a blank townread from scumpartner there (because a pretty universally scummy thing to do is give a read on your buddy but not give reasoning - this shows up so so very often) asks for reasoning for that. Yet Iso cannot give the reasoning; in this case he says he's just waiting (in order to get out of it).
Which makes me feel like Iso is defending my play. Which is at odds with his vote earlier.
For anyone who doesn't know, that's what scum do.
The two scum teams you proposed are me and Tanarin or me and Iso. If I'm the common factor, why aren't you voting me?
[I'm going to be a Junior Java Developer for a small local company, in case anyone was curious]
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@Bolly No one else stands out. I was actually going to mention in this post, as far as reads go, I'm definitely going to need to re-read already more carefully and maybe wait another day before I place any strong feelings of alignment on anyone.
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Why does me unvoting (because I sincerely do not think we need a lynch this quickly, we wouldn't gain nearly as much info now than if we waited for another one-two hundred posts or so) make you unhappy?
The self-hammering thing doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on why.
If my voice means anything on the matter I think I'd prefer that one cannot vote for themselves in this setup. The town gets an advantage of this works out the way JAR put it, but that just seems silly to me.
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I like Kamikaze's #81.
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iRebel's #82 definitely makes me want to re-read even more now. I see your issue with JAR, but wanting to lynch Kamikaze feels surprising to me.
Want to be a little more specific?
(It's fine you think Iso wagon is garbage, I have a feeling that if he deserves to get Lynched, he will get lynched regardless of my own thoughts.)
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@Wheat: I think he's scum. My uncertainty is in my ability to prove it. I'm willing to hold off on Iso though, since I don't need to convince myself of anything else.
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Why am I not buying anything Karn is saying about Kamikaze? I'll have to work on that.
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Before I can* place any strong feelings of alignment on anyone.
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Because of everything.
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JeY is not making much sense.
Quite possibly.
It is, but not the way you want it to. Only living players can be blown up, so the player voting himself will be skipped over.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Also Barn Kami #93. You seem to be really setting up a Kami lynch, but yet don't want to commit to it. Possible scumbuddy much?
@Kami RE #66: I mean setup as in scum is going to KNOW there will be a mass amount of paranoia around Iso (Especially with the lack of any night kill.) A halfway competent scum team would love to take him out early, and would likely be able to get away with it because Iso is Iso. And using "because Iso" would be a valid excuse for a lynch on him for a person to use. We all know Iso does a lot of stuff that could be seen as scummy on others but would not be scummy for Iso.
As for read, I am reading him as town. Very frustrated town, but town.
It is, but not the way you want it to. Only living players can be blown up, so the player voting himself will be skipped over.[/quote]
That actually is quite useful to know. That now means we can't force the lynchee to self hammer (For risk of carrying on the saint blowup too far.) JAR earns some town points in my book. I see no reason at all for scum to be asking this question in public, especially since self hammer has been proposed as a possible lynch solution IIRC.
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That gives a little less weight to my Tan/Kami theory. Doesn't change my Iso/Kami theory.
@Karn:
Wheaties is Town? Unvote Good enough for me for now.
Still not interested in voting Iso though.
Bolly:
Begin discussing the flaw. I don't want to play a waiting game for something that I did not see. Do you see flaws in other plans? I find that question pointless since you should be wanting to bring this discussion forward rather than waiting on a response from someone else.
Also, even if there are other flaws in the plans does not mean that every player will pick up on the flaw(s).
Sorry to be the onigashima in your fairyland, but I never unvoted Iso.
If I do, it'll only be to vote Jey instead. I'm 100% certain one of the two but not both are scum.
I disagree but I like your answer anyway.
but why
I want to know why you are not buying what Karn is saying too.
By "but why" I meant "but why are you not going after someone you think is scum when they are currently the largest wagon"
As for not being happy about having an advantage, that's not quite it. It wouldn't feel right to abuse that mechanic. I dont know. I want to win but not by being cheap? I think it's considered cheap.
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@Bolly She, and I was dicking around saying I'd saint Iso for lulz. Thinking back, I probably would've just relied on my scumbuddy to give me a rundown of some individual player metas and I would take a backseat, since I'm still fairly new to this game (Mafia in general). If I didn't have a reliable scumbuddy, I'd just wing it.
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@The WHEAT wheat WhEaT: I just said this, but I don't need Iso lynched right this minute. I went after him and built momentum, yes it was faster than I expected, but I've already said I'm not ready toe nd the day yet. We could get so much more information from wagons if we encourage more discussion. I already proclaimed my thoughts, stated my rather lame set of evidence, and comissioned my thoughts on Iso's play, what more do I need? I'm convinced I've found scum, but I want there to be more information to analyze from the lynch, and how would I get that from actively pursuing him even further? I honestly don't knwo what you're trying to ask here.
As for Karn, I feel like he's saying all this stuff on Kamikaze 'for the sake of it', I don't feel the essence of a legitimate push behind his argument. That's why I don't buy it.
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Not sure why everyone is so hyped up about the iRebel thing. I don't forsee anything useful to arrive from cracking it open and digging through it.
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What makes my stuff about Kamikaze feel different and less legitimate than the stuff I've said about Iso and Tanarin, which you seem perfectly fine with?
Your block on Kamikaze is what made me more concerned. It almost feels forced, not quite, but what's the significance?
So, if Kamikaze flipped town, what would be your stance on Tanarin? What if Tanarin flipped town, what would be your stance on Kamikaze? You have them set up as buddies, but do they hold merit as scum individually? Who is more likely to be scum?
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(7 to lynch)
Sir Karn - 1 (Tanarin)
Iso - 4 (Wheat Grinder, JAR, Sir Karn, KamikazeArchon)
Wheat - 1 (Shockwave)
JAR - 1 (Bolly)
JeY k - 1 (Iso)
Not Voting: Nachomamma8, iRebel, JeY k
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FOS Count
Iso - JeY k
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As always, please let me know if I've missed something.
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Posting a replacement request for Nachomamma now.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Anyway, I was thinking. I know the mafia bible says to look for scummy behavior, but this is definitely a different style of mafia than most of us are used to. I am wondering if maybe we need to look for some sure TOWN in the group as opposed to scum. Wheat is definitely on the right track with the fact that we NEED to establish 2-3 players that can't be town, and then exploit that fact. Not only would this make the town's possible scum pool smaller, but also make the scum's possible saint targets smaller as well.
Thoughts?
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Not sure I entirely follow! How would establishing players who can't be town whittle the pools of-- Nevermind, that makes sense now, but wouldn't whittling the saint targets be a high-risk high-reward strategy? Smaller pool of saint targets would mean high deathcount for town? Unless you plan to make the scumpool hammer so that they effectively kill themselves by our hand?
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That would be the basic intent of all this. We keep the safe pile out of the votes as long as we can, or if anything make sure the safe pile is at the beginning of the wagon where we KNOW the saint count will not be an issue. I mean we already are planning on having our 2nd and third top scumsuspects be at the end of any wagon anyway. No reason not to keep a pool of reserves so to speak who won't vote (Unless they really need to, we can still afford 5 people not voting for anyone at this point in the game.)
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Further, "townhunting" doesn't give as much useful information as scumhunting. A big chunk of useful info is generated from reactions under pressure. Sniffing out and following up on scum suspects increases pressure; marking people as town decreases pressure. It should not be our primary focus.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Your avatar along with Jey K's got me mixed up... *sigh*