Rarl Blarg. so, skimmed the game, gonna have a lot more to say in the morning, but to answer the question: if I was a pope: I'd Probally pope someone I've played with back in the day, that I think might wind up being a good day three lynch. and then just pile on.
Kamikaze wants to make sure nobody town clears anyone so that everyone is a potential lynch. Sounds great.
@Tanarin: what do I have left unanswered now?
For one my post #98 has a few questions left unanswered.
@Kami: You make some good points. I mean yeah there is always the risk that we accidentally clear scum, but certainly that does not exclude going back and looking at our town pile late game if something goes awry. Also, I dunno if I quite agree with the whole lowering of pressure thing. Mainly because scum is going to have less places to hide, and more importantly, less places to put saint points. Since saint points is the method they need to use to kill, eliminating targets does make their life harder.
Townhunting Plan: Think of this as a side objective rather than a main objective. The main objective is still lynching scum. It's just nice to have the side objective of "If we get to 3 confirmed town we win"
Meanwhile I'm liking Kamikaze for scum.
I feel good about Karn.
Wow I don't feel good about many people feeling town right now outside of Karn. Tanarin maybe? The non-scum half of Jey and Iso too I guess.
So how do you feel about Jey, then? You jumped off me because Karn said I was town, but that no longer applies for Jey. I apologize if you already stated your opinion on Jey and I glossed over it.
Wheaties:
When you're not paying full attention to the names/avatars of players it becomes rather easy to mixed up.
I have not stated my opinion on Jey because I didn't have one until recently. Knowing that the post I was looking at comes from Jey is a little telling in the fact that an unvote came followed by a FoS. But I need to reread Iso at this point to determine what the unvote and FoS may actually be saying about Jey.
Welcome to Pope Mafia, [playername]! You are [playername], Townie.
You hate Catholics. Yep, that's pretty much the reason.
You win when the mafia are dead.
Two players will receive the following PM:
Welcome to Pope Mafia, [playername]! You are [playername], Mafia Pope, along with your partner, [otherplayername]. The two of you may communicate in [quicktopic] at any time.
Each night, starting night 0, the mafia as a group may send me the names of one or two players. (You may not choose yourselves.) If you choose two players, each of those players will secretly receive 1 saint point. If you choose one player, that player will secretly receive 2 saint points.
Whenever a player is lynched, the last X people on that player's wagon will be killed, where X is the number of saint points that player had.
(Get it? You're making saints, so you're... popes... ah, **** it.)
You win when the number of living mafia equals the number of living town.
Other Rules:
1. Day 1 is deadlined for three weeks; subsequent days will last two weeks. Don't expect any extensions.
2. No Lynch is prohibited.
3. Failure to post for a consecutive 72 hours will result in a prod; next prod is a replacement or modkill.
Phone ate my post. Let's see if I can remember it. I like Arch and Wheat already. I agree that Day 1's wagon should progress naturally and that afterwards, we should use a scumminess tier system.
What associative tells do you guys expect scum who can not NK to have?
I think we need to keep an eye on squeamish end-wagon voters.
Wheat, why disengage yourself from the main conflict?
There was something else but I forget.
Looking back I found this post questionable from Iso. The part about squeamish end voters bugs me. If I were a Pope I would aim to be in the middle or beginning of the wagon.
So you're basically hedging your bets preemptively. "Iso could be scum so I'm voting him but OH HE MIGHT NOT BE". Please explain how this is a townie thing to do. If you don't even believe your case, why are you posting it?
I'm a little angry, honestly. I hate when there's a cool setup and I get run up early because then I inevitably can't take part in the later parts of the game since I will inevitably be lynched on Cyanosis (or just plain Iso paranoia) or in more traditional setups, Nightkilled for my claim. It's incredibly frustrating, and my play overall lately has been very lackluster. Plus, in an open setup, I can't exactly claim something wacky to evade suspicion, so...really, it's just a *****ty situation to be in, town or scum. At this point, I'm demotivated and I don't see that changing unless the momentum shifts elsewhere.
It's not like me to be defeatist, but I hope some of you can understand where I'm coming from, since this almost always invariably happens to me.
Do what you will. Maybe I'll come back in a day and re-read and re-examine what we've seen to give last reads. Or whatever.
Ciao for now.
Iso, would you mind telling me where you got the information that there are NK's in this game?
With findings this about Iso I can see why a wagon started on him. However, getting back to Jey, I find the unvote of Iso to an FoS suspicious for reasons that I stated about Wheaties. It's the same situation, but it was Jey who did and not Wheaties. (Sorry Wheaties for that confusion)
Moving forward looking at Jey's post I found the initial vote from Jey:
RVS: Vote Iso Because I declared this is mandatory for every game I play with him. And gosh darn it if you cause me to die D1 again for the lulz I am never playing Mafia with you again >_< Not that you didn't already know that.
On topic: Unvote
Looks like the party started without me. -with a sad look on face, puts away the boxes containing party decorations and confetti that didn't have time to be set up-
I'll read everything once I've done my RP posts, but posting for the sake of posting is dumb so I'll just leave this up unposted until I actually have something to say.
"(Which I imagine why Oso posted like that.)" 'Oso' made me lol. Thank you for this amazing nickname. He's going to hate me but idegaf.
...Eh just a lot of 'I agree with this' mostly. A natural first wagon + 'pecking order' wagons following seems legit, if I'm understanding this correctly.
For Oso's question, I'm bad at this game + I don't really know many people here really so I would saint Oso 'cause lulz. As for determining targets... Intuition =| Strictly that, since I don't know how to analyze wagons or how to set up mislynches later.
Speaking of Intuition, Iso's first post makes me want to believe he's scum, but nothing else does. -rereads- Just kidding, all of Iso's posts don't sit well with me. They feel Katawa Shoujou-y and not Majora's Mask-y.
Karn is town for Karn things. Karn don't make me vote you knowing you're town again I swear to god. I mean pope.
Not everyone has posted, no second person registers as 'scum' on my intuition.
Vote: Iso
The explanation itself is very lack luster and the hyperbole comes across as forced.
The Karn is Town for Karn things doesn't apply at all. Jey: Please explain what Karn has done is a Town thing from him. Please site both Town and Scum games from Karn to prove your point. I see you answered this below:
Curious - why do you think you would need to analyze wagons as scum?
Quote from JeY k »
Speaking of Intuition, Iso's first post makes me want to believe he's scum, but nothing else does. -rereads- Just kidding, all of Iso's posts don't sit well with me. They feel Katawa Shoujou-y and not Majora's Mask-y.
Okay, excellent. Please cite examples of similarities and differences between my posts here, in KS, and in MM, and how they make me scum. TIA!
Quote from frome="JeY k" »
Karn is town for Karn things.
Does Karn not do "Karn things" as scum? Please elaborate.
</blockquote>
I meant in general @ analyze wagons. As scum I would want to be able to do towny things I would think? Also the new quoting system makes it hard for me to do my old thing with quoting and I don't like it ;_;
As for similarities blah blah blah I'll see what I can dig up.
Maybe I'm not the best judge of Karn because I have not been in a game with Scum!Karn so forget what I said about him; but from solely my experience he looks like he's doing his town thing @_@
What an amazing cop out. Forget about what I said? If only I was 5 and that gullible.
I would still like to see the leg from you. Please site specific examples of a Town Karn compared to a Scum Karn.
Thinking back, re-reading the games didn't give me much -evidence- to post per se, but it refreshed my feelings from those games. I definitely feel like Katawa Shoujo Iso is playing this game, regardless if I can prove it or not =\
Now, where's my vig shot... =_=
Why did you put the "..." at the end of your Vig Shot comment? That shows hesitation with your thinking. Why would you want to Vig someone with hesitation on the mind? If your intuition is as good here as it was in those past games, then there shouldn't be any hesitation here.
The point being, I was making a case but then I thought of how silly people might think it sounded. It wasn't about being confident in me, it was being not confident about whether this inexpressible feeling I'm trying to convey through what I realized after posting seemed like poor examples. It felt like it was good enough at the time but after a few minutes I was like "...Iso's just going to tear this apart and throw this in my face" And then you did but not very well 0.o
It's not that "OH HE MIGHT NOT BE" it's more so "Why would anyone believe my rambling" >_>
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Let's see who hasn't posted yet... Just Nacho? I don't have any other good reads. I wonder what else is on TV.
More hesitation from you Jey. If you truly are Town, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. But here you showed that you concerned that Iso would rip your case apart. That's rather self-conscious of you to say.
Also, you presented half assed case to Iso. There was not need for Iso to "do well".
Definitely not happy about lynching Iso this soon though.
Unvote
FoS: Iso
The post that got this all started. Iso was L-2 and Jey thought a lynch might occur soon at #76 posts into the game. I don't believe anyone in this game would want to end the Day this early with minimal conversation and one player who hadn't posted.
I am very comfirtable with putting my vote on Jey. Vote: Jey K
I would still like to see the leg from you. Please site specific examples of a Town Karn compared to a Scum Karn.
I literally said in that post I have no experience with a scum Karn, so asking me to cite examples is pretty pointless. If you want me to go find a game where Karn is scum, read it, and then get back to you, I'm not going to bother wasting my time.
Why did you put the "..." at the end of your Vig Shot comment? That shows hesitation with your thinking. Why would you want to Vig someone with hesitation on the mind? If your intuition is as good here as it was in those past games, then there shouldn't be any hesitation here.
It's clearly a joke, because in Katawa Shoujo I vig'd Iso, but in this game I cannot (there is no vig). There is no indication of hesitation other than what you've fabricated in your interpretation.
More hesitation from you Jey. If you truly are Town, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. But here you showed that you concerned that Iso would rip your case apart. That's rather self-conscious of you to say.
Lol
[But if you want a real reply, Look: I posted what I wrote anyway. Zero hesitation. I was just posting my honest thoughts. If I'm afraid of anything, it's scum!Iso getting me mislynched early. Hindsight, why should I be worried of that? Still, lol.]
The post that got this all started. Iso was L-2 and Jey thought a lynch might occur soon at #76 posts into the game. I don't believe anyone in this game would want to end the Day this early with minimal conversation and one player who hadn't posted.
Then why is it a problem in the slightest that I unvoted? Jesus christ. Is it scummy to not trust a single being to not hammer Iso pre-emptively?
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I don't think you're scum, Void, but you could do better than this.
I find it oddly suspission that Iso called out Wheat's rvs vote, when both him and wheat posted in the same minute. that doesn't seem like something Iso would overlook.
Shockwave comments on No Vote = scum. still, after all this time, people think ***** like No Vote, or self vote = scum, it really doesn't, they're constructed tells. if anything out of that little opener mess, Karn would be the one who I think should be looked at. it's almost like he's intentionally baiting this ***** scum tell.
Really not thinking anyone's standing out as scum aside from karn on page one, Wheat really looks like he legitimately wants to unravel the setup. Karn's scum team claim is a little overzealous, and I can't see anything Kamikaze's done that implies the second one as scum, and the first one is based on such awful logic it hurts.
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I think Wheat's post where he lies out what will and will not be considered scummy in this game is a little suspect. I like the comment at the end, where we need three Certain townies and we pretty much win, but then there's the comment about how scum will want to place themselves in that list? wouldn't they want to place themselves in that list in any game? how does that make this any different then? a lot of the points on this list can also just become WIFOM really easily. I'm also not too sure about that first point either. in what game will scum not be try harding to not make a mistake, and I'm not sure what sets this game apart from any other game in that regard. I can't see why I would hair trigger vote someone in this game type any more or less often than I would in any other game type.
that aside, that post feels really sincere, and I don't know if I could see it coming from a pope mentality.
JeY K's post here, where he votes Iso is really suspect to me. almost everything in this post is meta analysis, when it's pretty clear from the setup meta can be thrown out the window, imo. the only game this can really compare to is that inflammable mafia, and that's still a different beast. town in this game will want to break the game open, using good logic, scum will want to break the game open, using logic that appears good. I can't see a world where someone would ask a question like Iso did in his first post, that would imply to me: oh, look, there's scum, trying to pseudo break the game for their own good, especially considering the nature of this game. It almost feels as though you're reaching for reasons to start a wagon on Iso, the bad meta and bad case, and with the number of people that answered the question about sainting people, that said Iso would be a good target, I fell like being early on this wagon might be in your best interest, JeY. and being last on this wagon may be a bad thing.
Kamikaze's post here irks me a little too. the line about tanarin is just wonky. he takes a pretty stock "I'm not moving my vote" post and rips it apart to look scummy in some way. why? I'm not sure, but I can't see a good explanation at all.
Iso's post where he regrets his previous post is really strange. I saw nothing wrong with the first post untill I read the second post. and wait, I still don't see it. @Iso: What compelled you to make post 40? what in your mind was actually regrettable about post 39?
JeY K's Meta case on Iso is still a meta case. and does nothing but make me suspicious of JeY K. if this were current I'd have Vote'd JeY K right here. leaving vote till end of post though.
Hate Karn's post here such fence sit, much lurk. so WOW.
Iso's Responce to the JeY K post feels 100% like how I would have responded. feels like it's coming from a good mentality. however, @Iso, since I know you love theory, and I've asked you this question before, and I liked the answer I got back then. within the confines of this game, how would town Iso prepare a wagon on scum Iso, given this setup?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Kamikaze wants to make sure nobody town clears anyone so that everyone is a potential lynch. Sounds great.
@Tanarin: what do I have left unanswered now?
For one my post #98 has a few questions left unanswered.
@Kami: You make some good points. I mean yeah there is always the risk that we accidentally clear scum, but certainly that does not exclude going back and looking at our town pile late game if something goes awry. Also, I dunno if I quite agree with the whole lowering of pressure thing. Mainly because scum is going to have less places to hide, and more importantly, less places to put saint points. Since saint points is the method they need to use to kill, eliminating targets does make their life harder.
No, actually, it would make the scum job much easier. Scum don't want to tuck saint points away, they want to put them on people who are going to get lynched. The worst case for scum is that they place all their saint points on people who never get lynched. If we mark some people as town explicitly, the scum know not to bother putting saint points on them.
Karn after making brash, overzelous scumteam statements last page, makes this post voting Iso. pretty sure he's just blindly buying JeY's case here, that I don't see, but he went from certain on 2 other people, to voting Iso. the talk about how he has to suck up being wrong just seems really forced here too. overall it's a really strange barn, that doesn;t look good. the way he also ignores half the thread asking about questions on him is just really odd.
Iso's post with the emoticon responding to the vote by karn seems very unIso. but not sure if that means anything. his next post though, while reading not like the Iso I remember, reads genuine. it's a ***** for case being pushed by scum, and there's only 2 scum in this game, and more than 2 people are buying it. I understand completely where Iso is coming from, and this post does more to reinforce my pope read on JeY K.
good job going out of your way, to continue not helping/answering questions, karn.
Back in my day, Tan, I distinctly remember early wagons on Iso. not always lynches, but wagons. Kami's list completly ignores that this isn't just talking about lynches or kills, but about early wagons. people probally understand and deal with Iso different by now, or maybe not, but he did almost always get wagoned day one, to my recollection. heck, I even remember an awful star trek game, where he was a cult leader that got lynched in a mini on day one. but don't worry, the town miss lynched once and lost. #stillbitter.
but really, the number of people buying an awful meta case just astonishes me, and I really don't know why anyone hasn't called out JeY at this point. they've even made a post about how they though their case was bad initally so that when Iso winds up being a sainted townie, and people die, he's still safely on the bottom of the wagon, but won't die, but has a way out, since his case was bad, but he posted it anyways, and Iso imploded.
wait, Shockwave has time to muddy the Iso mess with links to gimmick games when we're talking about Iso being lynched for being Iso, but not to actually read the thread, or even realize that what he just posted is nothing useful at all, and simply just a way of obscuring the current discussion
you know, even though you may be right on paper, Kami, Iso's point still stands even if he was never lynched in alot of those games. but hey, you don't care how he survives when there's a *****ty case to champion. like, his point is exactally the same with different words, and still conveys the same point. so what that he didn't die, even though he said he died. his point is still that, and it's still a trash case.
Karn: you're lying if you're gonna tell me you didn't read the setup and like 2 special rules when you joined this game. you're still ignoring question. seriously, if you didn't read the thread when you signed up, I don't even want to conciser that. there's no way you actually didn't know this game was night start.
hey, lets toy around with this settup for no reason while still being unwilling to unvote Iso, because you're scum, and know taking your vote off of him is a bad thing, since he's a sainted townie atm. but lets talk about info lynches, for some reason. Karn's been scummy too, but the one thing this post does, is through alot of WIFOM in my reads, as I now have a hard time seeing you as in a scum team with karn.
that's page three, it's now 3AM and I'm probably already incoherent. and should stop now.
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Jey:
I will respond to your post when I have more time.
JAR:
Read the Post 2 from Xyre. Where does it say the Popes get a NK?
Re Jey: Because it's a cop out. Anyone can go back and compare games to try and find a difference between alignments regardless of play experience with that particular player.
Answering JosephAlosiusRatzinger's two of questions in 136:
Iso: Meta has never been my strong point, but from what I have seen of him so far this doesn't appear to be scum Iso.
Karn: I had to reread to notice what was the slip, seems genuine, but given the amount of time the pre-game posts were up I'm nervous about relying on them.
JeY did unvote Iso. that throws off my last comment from my last page catchup. that case though is still in my mind, and there's still time to avoid being the hammer on Iso.
this post really, REALLY, doesn't sit well with me. specifically this:
Quote from Joesph »
I was really happy with the Iso wagon up until Jey unvoted in 75/76. The whole let's vote Karn because people said they'd saint him makes no sense. I'm half wondering whether Jey/Iso are buddies and this wagon started out a distancing attempt that went too far, too fast.
ok, lets break this down. you were happy with the Iso wagon, which in my mind on it's own, is scummy. then you're not happy with the Iso wagon, but not as a result of anything Iso did himself. then you misrep the case on karn, when there's only 3 votes on him, hardly a case, Iso's vote was a holdover RVS vote, Tan's vote was a holdover from the first 2 posts of the game with the spotty scum tells. and Bolly's voting karn for his not answering of question, then you throw suspicion back onto Iso, in the same sentence you take it off, and find JeY scummy too, despite buying their case. JeY's scummy for sure, but coming from you, this is inconsistent. and the way you try to link them, is bizarre. you're scum.
I was going to go and finish this page, but I have to head out to work early, and I've found scum, so I'm just going to leave this here.
I did discuss it yes, but at the time I did I was doing it from the point of view someone being ignorant of the rules. I wasn't thinking of slips, town or scum at the time...
The one interesting reactions of course was iRebel's. The actual flaw wasn't really an attack (as it's hardly against a townie to have a flawed scumplan ) but he seemed very concerned by it. So much so that he straight OMGUSed that single post over anything else in the game. He also neglected to say why he thought Karn was the best choose. I'm still kind on the whole JeY + Iso thing but if I'm wrong on that I would definately be looking at iRebel now.
I see what your saying with your flaw but it wasn't what I was thinking of. If Karn dies early then there is still a few saintkills for the scum and they can then distribute points whenever. Still I agree that it would be risky for scum to put all their eggs in one basket and I'm going assume they will distribute where they can.
If iRebel is indeed a scumsupect, why not follow that road as well? We have that hammer spot to sort out after all.
@Niv: I think you may be misunderstanding what JAR said about the Karn thing. He seems to be disagreeing with JeY's train of thought of lynching Karn because everyone says that they would saint him for the same reason you don't like Jey's 75. I did not gather him talking about the current votes on him from what you quoted. Also, I don't think you can really fault JAR for being happy with the Iso Wagon, because by default at least three town have to be on said wagon (Due to it getting to L-2.) I mean, if he WAS talking about the current wagon as it was at the time, then sure you have something. As of now though, I am not seeing your read at all.
my bad, I did missread that, I took: "The whole let's vote Karn because people said they'd saint him makes no sense." as meaning the people actually voting karn at the time, which were Iso, Bolly, and Tan, not that it was still referring to JeY's posts 75/76. that's my bad for posting having just woke up and being in a rush to head out the door this morning.
Absolutely 100% cares too much about finding scum to be scum.
Looks to me like they're just picking easy cases, I wouldn't clear them just yet, but the way they're saying things doesn't rub me the wrong way really but I'm not getting any intuitive reads toward either side of the scale. My playing is horrid so of course I'm going to be attacked, not going to say they're scum because they're after me.
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@Void You're going to respond to me just laughing at you? Okay.
Less cop out more 'I misinterpreted my experience with Karn'. I associated his behavior with 'Town Karn' and spoke preemptively without thinking first that I have no idea how scum!Karn operates. I'm still refusing to read other games.
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@JAR I've played 4 games of Mafia. Famous Historical Figures, House, Katawa Shoujo, Majora's Mask. Of the players I've seen before in this game, I've been with iRebel, Iso, Karn, Void and Wheat. The only reason I'm confident in Iso is because the bad vibe I got here is identical to the one I got D1 of Katawa Shoujo, where I was town Vig and Iso was scum, I was hesitant in my intuition so I waited until N3 to vig him, and cursed myself for not doing it sooner.
Maybe a lot of that is redundant, but I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. It's how I play.
iRebel: I didn't name names because I just came back from a two-year hiatus from Mafia and I don't actually know who currently has a "scummy meta". Is that your reason for calling me scum? And are you voting JAR over a single post or do you have deeper reasoning?
Yes. Am I interpreting the “scummy meta” bit that you’d pick people you felt you could lynch based on meta? If not, what do you mean?
#94, JeY: in Iso’s Inflammable Mafia, Iso led with a theory question that two people punted: Wheat, an Arsonist, and ER, an arsonist. Wheat punted it by over explaining himself whereas ER punted it by “refusing to speculate proper play for fire bugs” (paraphrased). Kamikaze not fully answering Iso’s question feels off to me. The whole point of Iso’s question is to test your mindset (imo). Town has no reason to be anything other than honest and to engage in the theory crafting. Kamikaze not fully answering the question denies us a chance to probe his mindset.
ER did the same thing in Iso’s Inflammable Mafia. He was an arsonist. And I think there’s a better than even chance Kamikaze is too.
#100, JAR: I’m down to discuss. I picked Karn because I’ve successfully pushed his lynch under dubious circumstances before (see Empire of Astare), and I’m confident in my ability to get under his skin and do it again.
#117, Karn: /barn re: Kami.
Niv is town for #125
Unvote; vote: Kamikaze
I feel like he has a higher probability of being scum than JAR at this very moment in time.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I can't speak from experience about Inflammable, but you do raise a good point. Of those that answered the question, he was the only one to not even name names. Your theory does make sense though. I mean this game in essence is an evolution of Inflammable, except it is scum buddies as opposed to independent scum. On top of that, I can see a scum!Karn knowing exactly how scum went down in Inflammable (Which he was in,) and trying to bus him without voting him.
you know, even though you may be right on paper, Kami, Iso's point still stands even if he was never lynched in alot of those games. but hey, you don't care how he survives when there's a *****ty case to champion. like, his point is exactally the same with different words, and still conveys the same point. so what that he didn't die, even though he said he died. his point is still that, and it's still a trash case.
If his point is just "I get wagoned day one", then his point is even more terrible. Everyone gets wagoned day one.
If Iso is genuinely frustrated, I think it's frustration with himself for scumslipping.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
#151, Karn: I actually thought you had answered it. But to answer your question, no, as you go out of your way to antagonise Iso at every turn. You not answering Iso isn’t something I find all that surprising.
#152, JAR: It has its pitfalls, sure.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
JAR:
The case I presented was just a very quick overview of what I saw from Jey. What exactly do you need clarification on? Also, if any player doesn't have the time to do the leg work, then why bother mentioning it all?
I'm sure a majority of us have time restraints (myself included) and, for that reason, any player should know when to not make comments that they cannot commit too.
Jey:
If my case was as "laughable" as you say it was, then did you feel the need to even comment/defend yourself on/from it?
@JAR:
To expand more: I disagree with you on the difference. Meta is Meta regardless of whether the player experience was active in the game or not. The only difference I see is that one is the player seeing the play as it unfolds and the other is reading a game after the game has resolved. While both are important for understanding a players game it ultimately comes down to finding out what that player was in the end game and you don't need to play with a player to obtain that kind of information.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
#151, Karn: I actually thought you had answered it. But to answer your question, no, as you go out of your way to antagonise Iso at every turn. You not answering Iso isn’t something I find all that surprising.
You think I go out of my way to antagonize Iso? How so?
#151, Karn: I actually thought you had answered it. But to answer your question, no, as you go out of your way to antagonise Iso at every turn. You not answering Iso isn’t something I find all that surprising.
You think I go out of my way to antagonize Iso? How so?
...
I'm done with your stalling. Answer my questions next post, or I'm parking my vote on you.
One thing I do want to ask is this, for all the pressure Karn is putting on Iso, Iso has only shown a slight interest in Karn. Why is that?
I took a look through both of their posts and Karn hasn't asked a lot of questions of Iso, and Iso has only acknowledged Karn with his first vote and a thumbs down after Iso recieved a vote from Karn.
I need to look into Void.
Jey K's early posts look... Bad. Intentional? Reaction baiting to determine alignments?
#151, Karn: I actually thought you had answered it. But to answer your question, no, as you go out of your way to antagonise Iso at every turn. You not answering Iso isn’t something I find all that surprising.
You think I go out of my way to antagonize Iso? How so?
You do remember Iso's Inflammable Mafia, right?
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I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
Hi guys. Started my full-time job today. What a doozy. And I see a deadline is creeping up.
I'm definitely going to need a little bit more time to get into some sort of healthy routine, but I definitely want to get my ass in gear for this game as soon as possible.
[quote from="Wheat_Grinder »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outside-magic/mafia/561456-experiment-2-pope-mafia-game-thread-day-1?comment=162"]
Tanarin, no further response to my latest comment on townhunting?
Meh, after your last point, I just kinda figured it was an issue not worth continuing. I still see it as a valid way to proceed, but to each their own.
@Tanarin: what do I have left unanswered now?
more when I'm lucid and not tired.
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For one my post #98 has a few questions left unanswered.
@Kami: You make some good points. I mean yeah there is always the risk that we accidentally clear scum, but certainly that does not exclude going back and looking at our town pile late game if something goes awry. Also, I dunno if I quite agree with the whole lowering of pressure thing. Mainly because scum is going to have less places to hide, and more importantly, less places to put saint points. Since saint points is the method they need to use to kill, eliminating targets does make their life harder.
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Meanwhile I'm liking Kamikaze for scum.
I feel good about Karn.
Wow I don't feel good about many people feeling town right now outside of Karn. Tanarin maybe? The non-scum half of Jey and Iso too I guess.
You dare confuse the servant for the master??? I am the proud Remilia Scarlet! I will not be confused by the likes of you...the likes of you...
COME ON THEN
So how do you feel about Jey, then? You jumped off me because Karn said I was town, but that no longer applies for Jey. I apologize if you already stated your opinion on Jey and I glossed over it.
When you're not paying full attention to the names/avatars of players it becomes rather easy to mixed up.
I have not stated my opinion on Jey because I didn't have one until recently. Knowing that the post I was looking at comes from Jey is a little telling in the fact that an unvote came followed by a FoS. But I need to reread Iso at this point to determine what the unvote and FoS may actually be saying about Jey.
Looking back I found this post questionable from Iso. The part about squeamish end voters bugs me. If I were a Pope I would aim to be in the middle or beginning of the wagon.
Iso, would you mind telling me where you got the information that there are NK's in this game?
With findings this about Iso I can see why a wagon started on him. However, getting back to Jey, I find the unvote of Iso to an FoS suspicious for reasons that I stated about Wheaties. It's the same situation, but it was Jey who did and not Wheaties. (Sorry Wheaties for that confusion)
Moving forward looking at Jey's post I found the initial vote from Jey:
The explanation itself is very lack luster and the hyperbole comes across as forced.
The Karn is Town for Karn things doesn't apply at all.
Jey: Please explain what Karn has done is a Town thing from him. Please site both Town and Scum games from Karn to prove your point.I see you answered this below:What an amazing cop out. Forget about what I said? If only I was 5 and that gullible.
I would still like to see the leg from you. Please site specific examples of a Town Karn compared to a Scum Karn.
Why did you put the "..." at the end of your Vig Shot comment? That shows hesitation with your thinking. Why would you want to Vig someone with hesitation on the mind? If your intuition is as good here as it was in those past games, then there shouldn't be any hesitation here.
More hesitation from you Jey. If you truly are Town, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. But here you showed that you concerned that Iso would rip your case apart. That's rather self-conscious of you to say.
Also, you presented half assed case to Iso. There was not need for Iso to "do well".
The post that got this all started. Iso was L-2 and Jey thought a lynch might occur soon at #76 posts into the game. I don't believe anyone in this game would want to end the Day this early with minimal conversation and one player who hadn't posted.
I am very comfirtable with putting my vote on Jey. Vote: Jey K
I literally said in that post I have no experience with a scum Karn, so asking me to cite examples is pretty pointless. If you want me to go find a game where Karn is scum, read it, and then get back to you, I'm not going to bother wasting my time.
It's clearly a joke, because in Katawa Shoujo I vig'd Iso, but in this game I cannot (there is no vig). There is no indication of hesitation other than what you've fabricated in your interpretation.
Lol
[But if you want a real reply, Look: I posted what I wrote anyway. Zero hesitation. I was just posting my honest thoughts. If I'm afraid of anything, it's scum!Iso getting me mislynched early. Hindsight, why should I be worried of that? Still, lol.]
Then why is it a problem in the slightest that I unvoted? Jesus christ. Is it scummy to not trust a single being to not hammer Iso pre-emptively?
---
I don't think you're scum, Void, but you could do better than this.
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Shockwave comments on No Vote = scum. still, after all this time, people think ***** like No Vote, or self vote = scum, it really doesn't, they're constructed tells. if anything out of that little opener mess, Karn would be the one who I think should be looked at. it's almost like he's intentionally baiting this ***** scum tell.
Really not thinking anyone's standing out as scum aside from karn on page one, Wheat really looks like he legitimately wants to unravel the setup. Karn's scum team claim is a little overzealous, and I can't see anything Kamikaze's done that implies the second one as scum, and the first one is based on such awful logic it hurts.
--------
I think Wheat's post where he lies out what will and will not be considered scummy in this game is a little suspect. I like the comment at the end, where we need three Certain townies and we pretty much win, but then there's the comment about how scum will want to place themselves in that list? wouldn't they want to place themselves in that list in any game? how does that make this any different then? a lot of the points on this list can also just become WIFOM really easily. I'm also not too sure about that first point either. in what game will scum not be try harding to not make a mistake, and I'm not sure what sets this game apart from any other game in that regard. I can't see why I would hair trigger vote someone in this game type any more or less often than I would in any other game type.
that aside, that post feels really sincere, and I don't know if I could see it coming from a pope mentality.
JeY K's post here, where he votes Iso is really suspect to me. almost everything in this post is meta analysis, when it's pretty clear from the setup meta can be thrown out the window, imo. the only game this can really compare to is that inflammable mafia, and that's still a different beast. town in this game will want to break the game open, using good logic, scum will want to break the game open, using logic that appears good. I can't see a world where someone would ask a question like Iso did in his first post, that would imply to me: oh, look, there's scum, trying to pseudo break the game for their own good, especially considering the nature of this game. It almost feels as though you're reaching for reasons to start a wagon on Iso, the bad meta and bad case, and with the number of people that answered the question about sainting people, that said Iso would be a good target, I fell like being early on this wagon might be in your best interest, JeY. and being last on this wagon may be a bad thing.
Kamikaze's post here irks me a little too. the line about tanarin is just wonky. he takes a pretty stock "I'm not moving my vote" post and rips it apart to look scummy in some way. why? I'm not sure, but I can't see a good explanation at all.
Iso's post where he regrets his previous post is really strange. I saw nothing wrong with the first post untill I read the second post. and wait, I still don't see it. @Iso: What compelled you to make post 40? what in your mind was actually regrettable about post 39?
JeY K's Meta case on Iso is still a meta case. and does nothing but make me suspicious of JeY K. if this were current I'd have Vote'd JeY K right here. leaving vote till end of post though.
Hate Karn's post here such fence sit, much lurk. so WOW.
Iso's Responce to the JeY K post feels 100% like how I would have responded. feels like it's coming from a good mentality. however, @Iso, since I know you love theory, and I've asked you this question before, and I liked the answer I got back then. within the confines of this game, how would town Iso prepare a wagon on scum Iso, given this setup?
Void's post makes my skin crawl.
I have to go out for a bit, but this is up to post #50, and I think is a lot to digest already.
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2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Karn after making brash, overzelous scumteam statements last page, makes this post voting Iso. pretty sure he's just blindly buying JeY's case here, that I don't see, but he went from certain on 2 other people, to voting Iso. the talk about how he has to suck up being wrong just seems really forced here too. overall it's a really strange barn, that doesn;t look good. the way he also ignores half the thread asking about questions on him is just really odd.
Iso's post with the emoticon responding to the vote by karn seems very unIso. but not sure if that means anything. his next post though, while reading not like the Iso I remember, reads genuine. it's a ***** for case being pushed by scum, and there's only 2 scum in this game, and more than 2 people are buying it. I understand completely where Iso is coming from, and this post does more to reinforce my pope read on JeY K.
good job going out of your way, to continue not helping/answering questions, karn.
Back in my day, Tan, I distinctly remember early wagons on Iso. not always lynches, but wagons. Kami's list completly ignores that this isn't just talking about lynches or kills, but about early wagons. people probally understand and deal with Iso different by now, or maybe not, but he did almost always get wagoned day one, to my recollection. heck, I even remember an awful star trek game, where he was a cult leader that got lynched in a mini on day one. but don't worry, the town miss lynched once and lost. #stillbitter.
but really, the number of people buying an awful meta case just astonishes me, and I really don't know why anyone hasn't called out JeY at this point. they've even made a post about how they though their case was bad initally so that when Iso winds up being a sainted townie, and people die, he's still safely on the bottom of the wagon, but won't die, but has a way out, since his case was bad, but he posted it anyways, and Iso imploded.
wait, Shockwave has time to muddy the Iso mess with links to gimmick games when we're talking about Iso being lynched for being Iso, but not to actually read the thread, or even realize that what he just posted is nothing useful at all, and simply just a way of obscuring the current discussion
you know, even though you may be right on paper, Kami, Iso's point still stands even if he was never lynched in alot of those games. but hey, you don't care how he survives when there's a *****ty case to champion. like, his point is exactally the same with different words, and still conveys the same point. so what that he didn't die, even though he said he died. his point is still that, and it's still a trash case.
Iso's response is solid. the case is still weak.
---------
Karn: you're lying if you're gonna tell me you didn't read the setup and like 2 special rules when you joined this game. you're still ignoring question. seriously, if you didn't read the thread when you signed up, I don't even want to conciser that. there's no way you actually didn't know this game was night start.
hey, lets toy around with this settup for no reason while still being unwilling to unvote Iso, because you're scum, and know taking your vote off of him is a bad thing, since he's a sainted townie atm. but lets talk about info lynches, for some reason. Karn's been scummy too, but the one thing this post does, is through alot of WIFOM in my reads, as I now have a hard time seeing you as in a scum team with karn.
that's page three, it's now 3AM and I'm probably already incoherent. and should stop now.
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The rest of your questions in 98 sound rhetorical.
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Absolutely 100% cares too much about finding scum to be scum.
First of all, nice dodging my first question.
Second, if they were rhetorical, I would not be asking for you to answer them, now would I?
Also, liking the way Niv is thinking, he is in my town pile. Same with Wheat.
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Forgot when my last post on the game was, but reading through again to get a read list going.
Wagon analysis is going to be hell this game.
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I will respond to your post when I have more time.
JAR:
Read the Post 2 from Xyre. Where does it say the Popes get a NK?
Re Jey: Because it's a cop out. Anyone can go back and compare games to try and find a difference between alignments regardless of play experience with that particular player.
Why are you defending Jey?
Iso: Meta has never been my strong point, but from what I have seen of him so far this doesn't appear to be scum Iso.
Karn: I had to reread to notice what was the slip, seems genuine, but given the amount of time the pre-game posts were up I'm nervous about relying on them.
Still rereading to get a handle on things.
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alot of Bolly's catchup sit well with me.
this post really, REALLY, doesn't sit well with me. specifically this: ok, lets break this down. you were happy with the Iso wagon, which in my mind on it's own, is scummy. then you're not happy with the Iso wagon, but not as a result of anything Iso did himself. then you misrep the case on karn, when there's only 3 votes on him, hardly a case, Iso's vote was a holdover RVS vote, Tan's vote was a holdover from the first 2 posts of the game with the spotty scum tells. and Bolly's voting karn for his not answering of question, then you throw suspicion back onto Iso, in the same sentence you take it off, and find JeY scummy too, despite buying their case. JeY's scummy for sure, but coming from you, this is inconsistent. and the way you try to link them, is bizarre. you're scum.
I was going to go and finish this page, but I have to head out to work early, and I've found scum, so I'm just going to leave this here.
Vote JosephAloisiusRatzinger
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My parents came 7000km to visit so I probably won't be playing much mafia while they're here.
Probably means this is genuine then.
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Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
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Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
If iRebel is indeed a scumsupect, why not follow that road as well? We have that hammer spot to sort out after all.
@Niv: I think you may be misunderstanding what JAR said about the Karn thing. He seems to be disagreeing with JeY's train of thought of lynching Karn because everyone says that they would saint him for the same reason you don't like Jey's 75. I did not gather him talking about the current votes on him from what you quoted. Also, I don't think you can really fault JAR for being happy with the Iso Wagon, because by default at least three town have to be on said wagon (Due to it getting to L-2.) I mean, if he WAS talking about the current wagon as it was at the time, then sure you have something. As of now though, I am not seeing your read at all.
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UnVote, more coffee was required.
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Vanished for a bit, no real good excuse, I'll start catching up once my local slave driver decides she is finished with me.
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---
@Niv: Okay.
---
Looks to me like they're just picking easy cases, I wouldn't clear them just yet, but the way they're saying things doesn't rub me the wrong way really but I'm not getting any intuitive reads toward either side of the scale. My playing is horrid so of course I'm going to be attacked, not going to say they're scum because they're after me.
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@Void You're going to respond to me just laughing at you? Okay.
Less cop out more 'I misinterpreted my experience with Karn'. I associated his behavior with 'Town Karn' and spoke preemptively without thinking first that I have no idea how scum!Karn operates. I'm still refusing to read other games.
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@JAR I've played 4 games of Mafia. Famous Historical Figures, House, Katawa Shoujo, Majora's Mask. Of the players I've seen before in this game, I've been with iRebel, Iso, Karn, Void and Wheat. The only reason I'm confident in Iso is because the bad vibe I got here is identical to the one I got D1 of Katawa Shoujo, where I was town Vig and Iso was scum, I was hesitant in my intuition so I waited until N3 to vig him, and cursed myself for not doing it sooner.
Maybe a lot of that is redundant, but I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. It's how I play.
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Yes. Am I interpreting the “scummy meta” bit that you’d pick people you felt you could lynch based on meta? If not, what do you mean?
#94, JeY: in Iso’s Inflammable Mafia, Iso led with a theory question that two people punted: Wheat, an Arsonist, and ER, an arsonist. Wheat punted it by over explaining himself whereas ER punted it by “refusing to speculate proper play for fire bugs” (paraphrased). Kamikaze not fully answering Iso’s question feels off to me. The whole point of Iso’s question is to test your mindset (imo). Town has no reason to be anything other than honest and to engage in the theory crafting. Kamikaze not fully answering the question denies us a chance to probe his mindset.
ER did the same thing in Iso’s Inflammable Mafia. He was an arsonist. And I think there’s a better than even chance Kamikaze is too.
#100, JAR: I’m down to discuss. I picked Karn because I’ve successfully pushed his lynch under dubious circumstances before (see Empire of Astare), and I’m confident in my ability to get under his skin and do it again.
#117, Karn: /barn re: Kami.
Niv is town for #125
Unvote; vote: Kamikaze
I feel like he has a higher probability of being scum than JAR at this very moment in time.
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I can't speak from experience about Inflammable, but you do raise a good point. Of those that answered the question, he was the only one to not even name names. Your theory does make sense though. I mean this game in essence is an evolution of Inflammable, except it is scum buddies as opposed to independent scum. On top of that, I can see a scum!Karn knowing exactly how scum went down in Inflammable (Which he was in,) and trying to bus him without voting him.
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@iRebel: I didn't answer Iso either. Am I a Pope?
(7 to lynch)
Iso - 4 (Wheat Grinder, JAR, Sir Karn, KamikazeArchon)
Wheat_Grinder - 1 (Shockwave)
JAR - 1 (Bolly)
JeY k - 2 (Iso, Void)
KamikazeArchon - 2 (iRebel, Tanarin)
Not Voting: JeY k, Niv
---
FOS Count
Iso - JeY k
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You have thirteen days left
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
If Iso is genuinely frustrated, I think it's frustration with himself for scumslipping.
I'd pick people that often get mislynched because of how they play. I don't know who that is right now.
JeY: You repeat that you're comfortable in your Iso read, yet you aren't voting him. Why?
Soon.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
#152, JAR: It has its pitfalls, sure.
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The case I presented was just a very quick overview of what I saw from Jey. What exactly do you need clarification on? Also, if any player doesn't have the time to do the leg work, then why bother mentioning it all?
I'm sure a majority of us have time restraints (myself included) and, for that reason, any player should know when to not make comments that they cannot commit too.
Jey:
If my case was as "laughable" as you say it was, then did you feel the need to even comment/defend yourself on/from it?
To expand more: I disagree with you on the difference. Meta is Meta regardless of whether the player experience was active in the game or not. The only difference I see is that one is the player seeing the play as it unfolds and the other is reading a game after the game has resolved. While both are important for understanding a players game it ultimately comes down to finding out what that player was in the end game and you don't need to play with a player to obtain that kind of information.
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/phone post
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You think I go out of my way to antagonize Iso? How so?
...
I'm done with your stalling. Answer my questions next post, or I'm parking my vote on you.
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I took a look through both of their posts and Karn hasn't asked a lot of questions of Iso, and Iso has only acknowledged Karn with his first vote and a thumbs down after Iso recieved a vote from Karn.
I need to look into Void.
Jey K's early posts look... Bad. Intentional? Reaction baiting to determine alignments?
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Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
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You do remember Iso's Inflammable Mafia, right?
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I'm definitely going to need a little bit more time to get into some sort of healthy routine, but I definitely want to get my ass in gear for this game as soon as possible.
I'll see what happens tomorrow evening.
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Tanarin, no further response to my latest comment on townhunting?
Meh, after your last point, I just kinda figured it was an issue not worth continuing. I still see it as a valid way to proceed, but to each their own.
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This game has an interesting playerlist, in that there's a lot of players who can be caught readily by specific other players.
Iso is good at catching Void, though not as good as he used to be.