You are the single reason the Iso wagon got derailed and we didn't lynch him Day 1.
This didn't, and still does not, make any sense. how the hell does wanting to scum hunt prevent lynches? OH NOES SOMEONE UNVOTED TO FIND MORE SCUM GUESS WE CAN'T LYNCH THAT PERSON ANYMORE!!!!!!
What about literally every day after that? Why is it my fault if all of you are too dumb to read? I literally said 'it's really early in the day I think there's more stuff I can do here' and suddenly that makes someone unlynchable? What is the deal here?
You absolutely crushed the momentum when we were about to lynch Iso, and made yourself sound like you were no longer sure at all - and when you go from being one of the biggest proponents of the lynch to unvoting and sounding very uncertain, you kill the momentum and make it so no one trusts your reads anymore since you don't even trust yourself.
Xyre, I hope this isn't the last Experiment you run, as they're fun games. I do hope you'll run that Serial Killer one that was originally in the signup list.
Eh, the difference is that setup guarantees nothing will be learned, since it's so volatile, so it wouldn't be an Experiment, per se. The whole idea of the Experiments was to try to find a better way to run 10/2 setups, but I think the takeaway here is that 10 townies is too much for two scum to be able to deal with normally without facing a serious uphill battle. The scum only were able to pull off a three-night win here because of the two modkills.
This may or may not be the last game I run. I've got an idea for a new mini setup. But it will be the usual closed setup type. I've run out of ideas for interesting open setups, at the moment - though that may just reflect a general lack of inspiration for setups period, and that it'll take me a while before I build up enough interesting ideas to come back for another one. We'll see.
Despite all the problems faced this game, though, I think the Pope is a great role that deserves further scrutiny. It just can't be the backbone of the mafia. I think it would be much better on a role like a serial killer facing a regular mafia - because the mafia, by their nature, need much more active disruption (a problem the mafia acknowledged repeatedly in their QT, once they realized certain very townie people like Sir Karn would be damn near impossible to coax onto a wagon), while a serial killer can be crafty and goofy. Hopefully someone will pick this ball up and run with it. (Maybe by turning the players into true saints and letting them trigger off nightkills.)
I hope you bring us another Experiment at some point in the future Xyre. I loved the first one, and this one would have gone much better if it wasn't for all the lurkers/necessary modkills. Though this setup can definitely lead to standoffs like what we had where both sides can just say "I'm not voting" - which is something I don't think any of us anticipated.
Xyre, your games are some of my favorites. Don't stop!
The inactivity is really what hurt this game, and it was an uphill struggle for Bolly and myself. It's very rare for me to encourage lurking among scumbuddies as much as I did in this game, because it's a really lame way to win the game, but we put all of our stock into one plan for winning the game and we had to ride it out. When Shockwave had to be replaced, I was fretting about whether or not our plan was going to fall all to hell but then I remembered that Asenion plays pretty unconventionally, so it worked out in our favor after all. But damn, it was hard not to make any mistakes after a certain point, as that would have immediately brought the momentum back my way, and what was even harder was convincing the rest of the town that their REALLY GOOD ideas were actually REALLY BAD and vice-versa. I feel like the way I set up my interactions that iRebel would have gotten lynched instead of Bolly in a 3-person endgame, but good god I was getting pretty antsy there. The scum chat is a good read, IIRC. I almost slipped right at the very end before Karn voted by revealing knowledge of how many Saint points were on Asenion, which likely would have cost us the game. I'm surprised that no one figured out we were loading up all of the Saint points on to one specific player, and I think the two biggest reasons the town lost were Jey halting the Iso wagon on Day 1, and Asenion insisting that Karn be on the Asenion wagon.
I feel like I had more to say but that's everything off the top of my head.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Karn, I absolutely loathe the fact that you were willing to lose this game rather than sacrifice your life. It's horrible play to value yourself more than the entire Town.
Iso was obviously scum and I spent the entire game trying and failing to lynch him. I can't believe no one else would vote for him.
And the next time the ******* obvious scum starts the day by saying "hey, let's lynch this guy"; THE TOWN SHOULDN'T ******* AGREE WITH THEM. I'm really perturbed that you guys just agreed to do what Iso said and refused to consider thinking for yourselves.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Karn, I absolutely loathe the fact that you were willing to lose this game rather than sacrifice your life. It's horrible play to value yourself more than the entire Town.
Um. What? If I'm in the final three then it's practically impossible for us to lose the game. Sacrificing myself IS losing the game for town.
You know what's horrible play? Making someone that the vast majority of people wanted off the wagon (me) get ON the wagon, just because you didn't like my "jib".
PLEASE point to where you tried to lynch Iso with this "entire game" like you claim to have done. The entire last Day you just sat around crying about how nobody actually had a reason to vote you, and you ignored the rest of the thread. You didn't case anyone, and you refused to hammer yourself to make it so there were only 2 players left if your whole wagon blew up (which was pretty likely if you were town).
You absolutely crushed the momentum when we were about to lynch Iso, and made yourself sound like you were no longer sure at all - and when you go from being one of the biggest proponents of the lynch to unvoting and sounding very uncertain, you kill the momentum and make it so no one trusts your reads anymore since you don't even trust yourself.
In general, if we're about to lynch scum, we don't need to extend the Day any further. Just lynch the scum and get back to scumhunting Tomorrow.
ESPECIALLY in a game with no Night kills.
To use an analogy - Iso was a shiny rock that we all wanted, then you covered it in dirt and pointed at five other shiny rocks.
Like I said, "Why is it my fault if all of you are too dumb to read?"
I never WASN'T sure. Don't you remember the exchange I had with Wheat? The problem wasn't me questioning my Iso read, it was quesitoning my ability to prove that.
Why doesn't anyone EVER READ THE TOPIC.
This seriously pisses me off.
"I'm sure Iso is scum but I'm not sure I can prove it" IS NOT THE SAME THING IN THE SLIGHTEST AS "I don't think Iso is scum anymore". Jesus christ. Be MORE ignorant.
I seriously don't understand how your inability to read makes Iso's not being lynched my fault.
Don't make me put the mod hat on, guys. Keep cooler heads.
Jey, you're absolutely missing the point. Mafia isn't just about "this person is scum, look at my case!" It's also about timing. The easiest way to get a wagon rolling is to pick up on the lulls in gameplay and push. It's not just about being right; you have to "feel" out the wagon, so-to-speak. Karn's not saying that nobody thought I was scum - obviously a lot of people did, which is why I happily volunteered the be the hammer, as I knew exactly when I would be dying as a result. But because you completely halted my wagon at the time when it needed to go through, it effectively demotivated people to run me up again, and after that point, I was able to keep the pressure on enough other people that an Iso wagon simply was not viable at any point in time. I understand what you're saying - on paper, it sounds really ******* dumb that someone everyone thinks is scum wouldn't get lynched. But when your head is in the momentum and flow of the game, it makes perfect sense. You kept pushing for my lynch at all the wrong times afterwards. Think of it as being like a game of tug-o-war - when someone stops pulling towards their side, the other side starts gaining ground, and vice-versa; and people falling into the sand pit in the middle of the arena makes the momentum shift greatly in one way or the other.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@The WHEAT wheat WhEaT: I just said this, but I don't need Iso lynched right this minute. I went after him and built momentum, yes it was faster than I expected, but I've already said I'm not ready toe nd the day yet. We could get so much more information from wagons if we encourage more discussion. I already proclaimed my thoughts, stated my rather lame set of evidence, and comissioned my thoughts on Iso's play, what more do I need? I'm convinced I've found scum, but I want there to be more information to analyze from the lynch, and how would I get that from actively pursuing him even further? I honestly don't knwo what you're trying to ask here.
Because I don't know what's so hard to understand here
Another contributing factor was the nature of the setup - because of the Saints, everyone sort of mentally put me on the backburner as a sort of "eh yeah I guess Iso will blow up eventually" thing. I took advantage of that hardcore.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
@The WHEAT wheat WhEaT: I just said this, but I don't need Iso lynched right this minute. I went after him and built momentum, yes it was faster than I expected, but I've already said I'm not ready toe nd the day yet. We could get so much more information from wagons if we encourage more discussion. I already proclaimed my thoughts, stated my rather lame set of evidence, and comissioned my thoughts on Iso's play, what more do I need? I'm convinced I've found scum, but I want there to be more information to analyze from the lynch, and how would I get that from actively pursuing him even further? I honestly don't knwo what you're trying to ask here.
Because I don't know what's so hard to understand here
You're not taking what I said into consideration at all. This conversation is over.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Jey, you're absolutely missing the point. Mafia isn't just about "this person is scum, look at my case!" It's also about timing. The easiest way to get a wagon rolling is to pick up on the lulls in gameplay and push. It's not just about being right; you have to "feel" out the wagon, so-to-speak. Karn's not saying that nobody thought I was scum - obviously a lot of people did, which is why I happily volunteered the be the hammer, as I knew exactly when I would be dying as a result. But because you completely halted my wagon at the time when it needed to go through, it effectively demotivated people to run me up again, and after that point, I was able to keep the pressure on enough other people that an Iso wagon simply was not viable at any point in time. I understand what you're saying - on paper, it sounds really ******* dumb that someone everyone thinks is scum wouldn't get lynched. But when your head is in the momentum and flow of the game, it makes perfect sense. You kept pushing for my lynch at all the wrong times afterwards. Think of it as being like a game of tug-o-war - when someone stops pulling towards their side, the other side starts gaining ground, and vice-versa; and people falling into the sand pit in the middle of the arena makes the momentum shift greatly in one way or the other.
It's not about what people "care" about. It's about learning the intricacies of sociological herding, public and popular opinion, and the momentum that can be gained from ascertaining when certain mental fatigue occurs in regards to a particular subject. I wouldn't call that "dumbing down", I'd consider it "stepping up".
Any further attempts to draw me back into this argument will fail.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Roflmao. You all should've just lynched me D1 so I wouldn't have to be this pissed that no one can read at all.
My thing is, your argument would've worked if i wasn't still learning how to play this game. Everyone treated it as if I was seasoned or knew what I was doing at all.
Apparently no one SAW that I still wanted to lynch Iso. no one. Not a single person read the multiple times "I still want to lynch Iso" "I still thoroughly believe he's scum". No one read.
BUT WHATEVER. If wanting to continue to scumhunt is a such a crime then I just won't play. Obviously you're going to say "do it after the lynch" but I fail to see why wanting to see more reactions is such a bad thing. If you can actually explain why it's fundamentally superior in a majority of situations then sure, but no one has done that yet.
That being said, I'm pissed because none of you want to claim responsibility for assuming I knew exactly what I was doing, that it's solely my fault for Iso becoming unlynchable. If any of you could read, it wouldn't have nearly as much of an impact. I can't stand it. It's not only my fault.
Everyone, please take a breather from this thread. I know it was a frustrating loss and I know you have strong opinions on each others' play, but please step back for now and cool off.
I'm not really angry at anyone in the thread specifically. It's just a general sense of frustration at the way things played out. Some combination of the nature of this set-up, the composition of players, and the lurking the ocurred; created a situation that was very frustrating to play in and demotivating.
I don't think I played well by any means and I'm not defending myself. That doesn't mean other people played any better though.
And I REALLY didn't expect the sudden allowance of Karn voting in the first spot on the wagon. I expected the delay, logistics, confusion, etc of the wagon trying to reorganize. I always intended to self-hammer and make a 3-man end-game, but because of the suddenness of the vote changes due to the rule Xyre allowed; it kind of screwed me over on that. I'm not upset with Xyre who has been a Saint through this tough moderating experience. It just messed up my plans.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Oh yeah, I think I figured out at one point that you had a plan (though I don't remember what it was or when I figured it out) because you say things in a certain way when you're not being forward about your motives. (Though it's a lot easier to tell that when I know that you're town. )
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Karn, I absolutely loathe the fact that you were willing to lose this game rather than sacrifice your life. It's horrible play to value yourself more than the entire Town.
Asenion, I absolutely loathe the fact that you were willing to lose this game rather than let the town decide your wagon. It's horrible play to value your own reads more than those of the entire Town.
And the next time the ******* obvious scum starts the day by saying "hey, let's lynch this guy"; THE TOWN SHOULDN'T ******* AGREE WITH THEM. I'm really perturbed that you guys just agreed to do what Iso said and refused to consider thinking for yourselves.
That's the greater part of why I wanted you lynched, though. In fact, it's 95% of what made you a good lynch target in my eyes, the other 5% being if you were actually scum.
I was bluffing, I intended to self-hammer and letting you guys skip reordering the wagon messed me up. And why would you want to do what the scum said in MyLo?
Private Mod Note
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
Another contributing factor was the nature of the setup - because of the Saints, everyone sort of mentally put me on the backburner as a sort of "eh yeah I guess Iso will blow up eventually" thing. I took advantage of that hardcore.
And this I think is the reason you not only make it to endgame so often, but also why it is so annoying to lynch you as scum. People feel that you will eventually blow up (And as scum you always do.) This is why I got so pissed after our last game together. You were mechanically confirmed scum via counterclaim, yet no one wanted to lynch because of you being you. I honestly believe if it was anyone else, they would have been gone that day.
Yeah, one immediate problem with the setup (and with the experimental model generally) was I often found myself in hopeless situations where I needed to change the rules to make sure the mafia didn't get horribly unexpectedly screwed (e.g. by a heavily sainted player getting modkilled) but in such a way as to not reveal the ulterior motive behind that rules change, which usually had the result of blindsiding the town. Sorry about that.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Roflmao. You all should've just lynched me D1 so I wouldn't have to be this pissed that no one can read at all.
My thing is, your argument would've worked if i wasn't still learning how to play this game. Everyone treated it as if I was seasoned or knew what I was doing at all.
Apparently no one SAW that I still wanted to lynch Iso. no one. Not a single person read the multiple times "I still want to lynch Iso" "I still thoroughly believe he's scum". No one read.
BUT WHATEVER. If wanting to continue to scumhunt is a such a crime then I just won't play. Obviously you're going to say "do it after the lynch" but I fail to see why wanting to see more reactions is such a bad thing. If you can actually explain why it's fundamentally superior in a majority of situations then sure, but no one has done that yet.
That being said, I'm pissed because none of you want to claim responsibility for assuming I knew exactly what I was doing, that it's solely my fault for Iso becoming unlynchable. If any of you could read, it wouldn't have nearly as much of an impact. I can't stand it. It's not only my fault.
If I may give my own take on it: It isn't that wanting to see more reactions is a bad thing, because it isn't per se. It's that without having Iso (or anyone) being confirmed scum, it changes the dynamic. If player N is confirmed scum, that means player N will be the lynch. At that point it becomes possibly prudent to continue scum hunting before ending the day because there exist a fact in which to juxtapose others actions (or inactions as the case may be).
Iso was never confirmed scum, insofar as he was going to be the lynch Day 1, which means trying to continue scum hunt gives us nothing in which to juxtapose against. If someone interrupts the coalescing group opinion, unless the newly offered opinion (or lynchee) is either a bad choice, or the person advocating for the first opinion is really adamant, there's a very likely possibility that the interjected opinion will win out.
Using a real life example, assume you and four other friends decide you're going barhopping on a Friday night, and you want to go to three different bars out of a possible five. Those five include a gay bar, a spanish bar, a mexican bar, a martini bar, and a regional bar. Everyone is really talking about and hyping up the spanish bar (Iso), but as the group begin to coalesce around the spanish bar, someone says "well, maybe we should start with the mexican bar instead" in an attempt to further the discussion, and the end result is that after all the hype, you go the mexican bar. That scenario is analogous to what happened with the Iso lynch on Day 1. We were trending to Iso (spanish bar), then you wanted to continue the discussion, and we ended up lynching Kamikaze instead (going to the mexican bar).
Had it of been decided that you were going to the spanish bar first, you can then keep the discussion going because you have a fact in which to examine your other four choices out of. But when there is no constant, interrupting a coalescing opinion will kill it far more times than not.
So it's fair to say you're the genesis of Iso not getting lynched Day 1. I don't think it's fair to say you're the sole reason he was never lynched, because we all have a responsibility to re-examine the game each subsequent day.
I hope this makes sense; it's midnight and I'm slightly tipsy, so if this doesn't make a hill of beans worth of sense, I apologise.
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EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
I was bluffing, I intended to self-hammer and letting you guys skip reordering the wagon messed me up. And why would you want to do what the scum said in MyLo?
You had ample time to self-hammer.
I already told you why you needed to be lynched and it was because there was a really good chance you were heavily sainted and would kill scum for us, and the game could be quickly mopped up. That plan probably would have worked if Bolly wasn't considered townie.
It 100% didn't matter what the scum thought to me.
Also what would you have had us done, lynch Iso? Only problem is that you were also scum in the eyes of most of the town. I felt you were town but there was no way in hell I was going to do anything you wanted either unless I wanted to do it myself.
I miscounted the votes after people were able to reorder the wagon differently WG. I didn't realize it was already done until it was too late.
I would have had us lynch Iso. Or leave someone better off the wagon than Karn. Someone who might have actually found Bolly in LyLo.
If LyLo was Bolly, Karn, and I, we win, as there is no way in hell I'd've voted for Karn, and I'm fairly confident that Karn would have voted for Bolly before me.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I'm targeted more often than a black guy driving a beat-up sedan with a broken tail-light and no license plate, and Cy's well aware of that.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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What about literally every day after that? Why is it my fault if all of you are too dumb to read? I literally said 'it's really early in the day I think there's more stuff I can do here' and suddenly that makes someone unlynchable? What is the deal here?
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
ESPECIALLY in a game with no Night kills.
To use an analogy - Iso was a shiny rock that we all wanted, then you covered it in dirt and pointed at five other shiny rocks.
Eh, the difference is that setup guarantees nothing will be learned, since it's so volatile, so it wouldn't be an Experiment, per se. The whole idea of the Experiments was to try to find a better way to run 10/2 setups, but I think the takeaway here is that 10 townies is too much for two scum to be able to deal with normally without facing a serious uphill battle. The scum only were able to pull off a three-night win here because of the two modkills.
This may or may not be the last game I run. I've got an idea for a new mini setup. But it will be the usual closed setup type. I've run out of ideas for interesting open setups, at the moment - though that may just reflect a general lack of inspiration for setups period, and that it'll take me a while before I build up enough interesting ideas to come back for another one. We'll see.
Despite all the problems faced this game, though, I think the Pope is a great role that deserves further scrutiny. It just can't be the backbone of the mafia. I think it would be much better on a role like a serial killer facing a regular mafia - because the mafia, by their nature, need much more active disruption (a problem the mafia acknowledged repeatedly in their QT, once they realized certain very townie people like Sir Karn would be damn near impossible to coax onto a wagon), while a serial killer can be crafty and goofy. Hopefully someone will pick this ball up and run with it. (Maybe by turning the players into true saints and letting them trigger off nightkills.)
Mafia QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/ZLTm8PmcQm87n
Spec QT (rather empty): http://quicktopic.com/50/H/sAejDhnZWKQF
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
The inactivity is really what hurt this game, and it was an uphill struggle for Bolly and myself. It's very rare for me to encourage lurking among scumbuddies as much as I did in this game, because it's a really lame way to win the game, but we put all of our stock into one plan for winning the game and we had to ride it out. When Shockwave had to be replaced, I was fretting about whether or not our plan was going to fall all to hell but then I remembered that Asenion plays pretty unconventionally, so it worked out in our favor after all. But damn, it was hard not to make any mistakes after a certain point, as that would have immediately brought the momentum back my way, and what was even harder was convincing the rest of the town that their REALLY GOOD ideas were actually REALLY BAD and vice-versa. I feel like the way I set up my interactions that iRebel would have gotten lynched instead of Bolly in a 3-person endgame, but good god I was getting pretty antsy there. The scum chat is a good read, IIRC. I almost slipped right at the very end before Karn voted by revealing knowledge of how many Saint points were on Asenion, which likely would have cost us the game. I'm surprised that no one figured out we were loading up all of the Saint points on to one specific player, and I think the two biggest reasons the town lost were Jey halting the Iso wagon on Day 1, and Asenion insisting that Karn be on the Asenion wagon.
I feel like I had more to say but that's everything off the top of my head.
Thanks to everyone who stuck the game out.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Iso was obviously scum and I spent the entire game trying and failing to lynch him. I can't believe no one else would vote for him.
And the next time the ******* obvious scum starts the day by saying "hey, let's lynch this guy"; THE TOWN SHOULDN'T ******* AGREE WITH THEM. I'm really perturbed that you guys just agreed to do what Iso said and refused to consider thinking for yourselves.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Um. What? If I'm in the final three then it's practically impossible for us to lose the game. Sacrificing myself IS losing the game for town.
You know what's horrible play? Making someone that the vast majority of people wanted off the wagon (me) get ON the wagon, just because you didn't like my "jib".
PLEASE point to where you tried to lynch Iso with this "entire game" like you claim to have done. The entire last Day you just sat around crying about how nobody actually had a reason to vote you, and you ignored the rest of the thread. You didn't case anyone, and you refused to hammer yourself to make it so there were only 2 players left if your whole wagon blew up (which was pretty likely if you were town).
I never WASN'T sure. Don't you remember the exchange I had with Wheat? The problem wasn't me questioning my Iso read, it was quesitoning my ability to prove that.
Why doesn't anyone EVER READ THE TOPIC.
This seriously pisses me off.
"I'm sure Iso is scum but I'm not sure I can prove it" IS NOT THE SAME THING IN THE SLIGHTEST AS "I don't think Iso is scum anymore". Jesus christ. Be MORE ignorant.
I seriously don't understand how your inability to read makes Iso's not being lynched my fault.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Jey, you're absolutely missing the point. Mafia isn't just about "this person is scum, look at my case!" It's also about timing. The easiest way to get a wagon rolling is to pick up on the lulls in gameplay and push. It's not just about being right; you have to "feel" out the wagon, so-to-speak. Karn's not saying that nobody thought I was scum - obviously a lot of people did, which is why I happily volunteered the be the hammer, as I knew exactly when I would be dying as a result. But because you completely halted my wagon at the time when it needed to go through, it effectively demotivated people to run me up again, and after that point, I was able to keep the pressure on enough other people that an Iso wagon simply was not viable at any point in time. I understand what you're saying - on paper, it sounds really ******* dumb that someone everyone thinks is scum wouldn't get lynched. But when your head is in the momentum and flow of the game, it makes perfect sense. You kept pushing for my lynch at all the wrong times afterwards. Think of it as being like a game of tug-o-war - when someone stops pulling towards their side, the other side starts gaining ground, and vice-versa; and people falling into the sand pit in the middle of the arena makes the momentum shift greatly in one way or the other.
Do you understand?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Because I don't know what's so hard to understand here
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You're not taking what I said into consideration at all. This conversation is over.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Sorry.
/barn
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Any further attempts to draw me back into this argument will fail.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My thing is, your argument would've worked if i wasn't still learning how to play this game. Everyone treated it as if I was seasoned or knew what I was doing at all.
Apparently no one SAW that I still wanted to lynch Iso. no one. Not a single person read the multiple times "I still want to lynch Iso" "I still thoroughly believe he's scum". No one read.
BUT WHATEVER. If wanting to continue to scumhunt is a such a crime then I just won't play. Obviously you're going to say "do it after the lynch" but I fail to see why wanting to see more reactions is such a bad thing. If you can actually explain why it's fundamentally superior in a majority of situations then sure, but no one has done that yet.
That being said, I'm pissed because none of you want to claim responsibility for assuming I knew exactly what I was doing, that it's solely my fault for Iso becoming unlynchable. If any of you could read, it wouldn't have nearly as much of an impact. I can't stand it. It's not only my fault.
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
I don't think I played well by any means and I'm not defending myself. That doesn't mean other people played any better though.
And I REALLY didn't expect the sudden allowance of Karn voting in the first spot on the wagon. I expected the delay, logistics, confusion, etc of the wagon trying to reorganize. I always intended to self-hammer and make a 3-man end-game, but because of the suddenness of the vote changes due to the rule Xyre allowed; it kind of screwed me over on that. I'm not upset with Xyre who has been a Saint through this tough moderating experience. It just messed up my plans.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Asenion, I absolutely loathe the fact that you were willing to lose this game rather than let the town decide your wagon. It's horrible play to value your own reads more than those of the entire Town.
That's the greater part of why I wanted you lynched, though. In fact, it's 95% of what made you a good lynch target in my eyes, the other 5% being if you were actually scum.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
And this I think is the reason you not only make it to endgame so often, but also why it is so annoying to lynch you as scum. People feel that you will eventually blow up (And as scum you always do.) This is why I got so pissed after our last game together. You were mechanically confirmed scum via counterclaim, yet no one wanted to lynch because of you being you. I honestly believe if it was anyone else, they would have been gone that day.
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{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
If I may give my own take on it: It isn't that wanting to see more reactions is a bad thing, because it isn't per se. It's that without having Iso (or anyone) being confirmed scum, it changes the dynamic. If player N is confirmed scum, that means player N will be the lynch. At that point it becomes possibly prudent to continue scum hunting before ending the day because there exist a fact in which to juxtapose others actions (or inactions as the case may be).
Iso was never confirmed scum, insofar as he was going to be the lynch Day 1, which means trying to continue scum hunt gives us nothing in which to juxtapose against. If someone interrupts the coalescing group opinion, unless the newly offered opinion (or lynchee) is either a bad choice, or the person advocating for the first opinion is really adamant, there's a very likely possibility that the interjected opinion will win out.
Using a real life example, assume you and four other friends decide you're going barhopping on a Friday night, and you want to go to three different bars out of a possible five. Those five include a gay bar, a spanish bar, a mexican bar, a martini bar, and a regional bar. Everyone is really talking about and hyping up the spanish bar (Iso), but as the group begin to coalesce around the spanish bar, someone says "well, maybe we should start with the mexican bar instead" in an attempt to further the discussion, and the end result is that after all the hype, you go the mexican bar. That scenario is analogous to what happened with the Iso lynch on Day 1. We were trending to Iso (spanish bar), then you wanted to continue the discussion, and we ended up lynching Kamikaze instead (going to the mexican bar).
Had it of been decided that you were going to the spanish bar first, you can then keep the discussion going because you have a fact in which to examine your other four choices out of. But when there is no constant, interrupting a coalescing opinion will kill it far more times than not.
So it's fair to say you're the genesis of Iso not getting lynched Day 1. I don't think it's fair to say you're the sole reason he was never lynched, because we all have a responsibility to re-examine the game each subsequent day.
I hope this makes sense; it's midnight and I'm slightly tipsy, so if this doesn't make a hill of beans worth of sense, I apologise.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
¤.†.¤ The OceanLink ¤.†.¤
Good job Popes.
You had ample time to self-hammer.
I already told you why you needed to be lynched and it was because there was a really good chance you were heavily sainted and would kill scum for us, and the game could be quickly mopped up. That plan probably would have worked if Bolly wasn't considered townie.
It 100% didn't matter what the scum thought to me.
Also what would you have had us done, lynch Iso? Only problem is that you were also scum in the eyes of most of the town. I felt you were town but there was no way in hell I was going to do anything you wanted either unless I wanted to do it myself.
I would have had us lynch Iso. Or leave someone better off the wagon than Karn. Someone who might have actually found Bolly in LyLo.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
If LyLo was Bolly, Karn, and I, we win, as there is no way in hell I'd've voted for Karn, and I'm fairly confident that Karn would have voted for Bolly before me.
UUU Azami, Lady of Scrolls
RRR Diaochan, Artful Beauty
UR(U/R) Tibor, Lumia, & Melek (WIP)
Mafia Stats
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player