I'm not even particularly convinced that CM is town anyway, I feel like there is a good chance that he's going to flip scum, and his ball does something else entirely. But if this is the case, presumably whatever it does will be negative, and I'd rather not have that happen to obviously town(to me at least) WG.
No idea. But that IS my ability. IDK what else I can do to prove that to you.
For when I'm dead though: I don't like WG's actions surrounding this whole situation with me. He might be scum. Seeing items seems to me like a modded rolecop, which could be scum. Consider that when I'm dead, please.
Or, if he's not, and there is only one town BP variant, the other guy is scum.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Seppel probably could hand those out. Also, in this level of game, why can't there be two bps? Also also, I'm not full bulletproof. If you shoot me, I WILL die. Just not right away.
Wheat needs to explain where he saw that a lot more? Did a person have it? They don't need to claim, but where did you see this?
No idea. But that IS my ability. IDK what else I can do to prove that to you.
For when I'm dead though: I don't like WG's actions surrounding this whole situation with me. He might be scum. Seeing items seems to me like a modded rolecop, which could be scum. Consider that when I'm dead, please.
Or, if he's not, and there is only one town BP variant, the other guy is scum.
So you are implying you were given that item, but yet in the second quote it seems like you are saying it's your ability. You seem to be insinuating that you started the game with that ability and not that you were VT and acquired that ability.
Also consider ever role we have seen/has been claimed is based on an item, in your claim you never mentioned it having anything to do with an item. Just doesn't add up.
Consider my vote on KJ, but I will wait to place it in case people want to talk anything out and he tries to self hammer.
@KJ: Does your ability work when you are lynched or NKed? Or is it just specifically if you are killed during the day? Like..maybe you can just summarize what your ability actually says/does?
I want to lynch karn. But apparently he is so town that they are thinking of changing the definition to 'town' in the dictionary to reference him according to some.
Then I wanted to lynch hawk and apparently lying in a game having just sheeped every final wagon using that lie and not needing to commit to anything before hand due to the 'need to hammer' is also indicative of towniness.
So I'd rather see the claim that can be proven one way or another be tested, unless someone wants to offer up a better lynch, in which case I'm listening.
You're reasoning makes sense, though I disagree with the methods. This cuts another off my POE list, narrowing who could be mafia within the unknowns. We can kill supposed vanillas rather than taking potshots at claimed power and reducing town effectiveness.
Is there any chance that this could be a scum role? It seems like town has a good deal of power. Someone more experienced than me, please chime in.
Also, why is WG near confirmed town again?
A resurrection ability is extremely powerful for mafia, not to mention potentially problematic if we were down to 2vs2. Even a successful lynch would allow the mafiate to kill a townie and control the vote. I considered making the Phoenix role in Marvel Madness 2 (a townie) a resurrector, and it was too swingy. In a normal game, I'd consider it to be townie-only and being conditional makes it sound believable.
As for Wheat, he's been keeping claims honest, not outing everyone and helping the town. So the two options are that he's town, or that he's mafia who is going about town-clearing when possible. Since town-clearing is detrimental to mafia, Occam's Razor suggests he's town.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Hunger, you are misreading the situation. Wheat saw a bulletproof vest on someone else, not on KillJoy.
That's the item KJ is talking about.
I am aware Wheat is claiming to have seen it on someone else. Do you think that other than Seppel there is another role that hands out items? And do you think that person or Seppel was able to hand items out before N1? And do you think a "bleeder" claimed BP role would exist alongside a bulletproof vest item?
Do you think in an item-based game a role exists that isn't item based, or if it is item based do you think KJ leaves that out when claiming?
To me it seems like he is dead in the water and tried to come up with a claim to draw away the Day vig.
Hunger: Seppel and Cantrip handed out items. I do not believe there is a third one in town, which is why i wanted the shotgun donator to claim. He's probably scum.
Or it was Seppel, but since Seppel is found only with a bomb, I am assuming Seppel has to spend an action to craft first. Otherwise he was only 2-shot.
I have a problem with Cyan's clear now.
@ The owner of the bulletproof vest: please check with the mod if you will be notified when te vest is used.
If you are not notified, then we might be wrongly clearing Cyan as doc now.
(I assume that you would've told us if you did use it last Night)
Wow. Who knew small satellites were so busy as to completely sell out every hotel in my town?
Anyway. Bulletproof. Worst claim ever, but it makes sense since we had a "big" killing role with the SK, and a "little" killing role with 1-shot vig, a "big" investigative item-cop and a "little" investigative with a death-cop. That would make Cyan the "big" doctor role with KJ being the "little" doctor role.
If TK is BP, then his whole "big" vs "little" roles post is contrived. He would clearly have to include himself in parallel with KJ's role. Maybe he doesn't claim it in that post, but if he was town BP and honestly trying to figure it out the "little" vs "big" thing shouldn't make sense to him and I don't think he would post it. And while he says worst claim ever, wouldn't town-BP-TK CC KJ there?
I am sorry for my absence. I was at a conference for work and the hotel's wifi was down the entire time (which played bloody hell with the conference, too...how does a major hotel chain get away with multiple days of downed wifi, esp. during a conference?).
I'm catching up, but will confirm that the basics of my role have been guessed correctly: when I die, the role (not just alignment) of the player with the ball will be revealed, along with any items the player has (but not what they do). Despite being a death-rolecop, I'm town, but I completely understand if I get killed/lynched for it. Killing me now confirms Wheat's alignment, but since he's already claimed, if he's town, that additional information being outed likely isn't detrimental. The other obvious benefit to dayvigging me is that you get another chance to discuss the gamestate with my flip and Wheat's reveal.
I think that KJ's claim is questionable in a game with an x-shot doc and a bulletproof vest, but vests can be given away by scum, so I don't know how telling that is. TK's justification sounded off, manufactured, so if KJ flips scum, I agree that TK needs more scrutiny.
@Rhand: Please elaborate on 1088: how does dayvigging KJ give us "a dead scum or confirmed town" given that if KJ's telling the truth about his ability (regardless of alignment) he will still be around (unrevealed) until the start of Tomorrow, and then he'll be dead?
Is there any chance that this could be a scum role? It seems like town has a good deal of power. Someone more experienced than me, please chime in.
Also, why is WG near confirmed town again?
A resurrection ability is extremely powerful for mafia, not to mention potentially problematic if we were down to 2vs2. Even a successful lynch would allow the mafiate to kill a townie and control the vote. I considered making the Phoenix role in Marvel Madness 2 (a townie) a resurrector, and it was too swingy. In a normal game, I'd consider it to be townie-only and being conditional makes it sound believable.
As for Wheat, he's been keeping claims honest, not outing everyone and helping the town. So the two options are that he's town, or that he's mafia who is going about town-clearing when possible. Since town-clearing is detrimental to mafia, Occam's Razor suggests he's town.
Also, WTF is this? Resurrection? Where did that come from?
@Karn - In your opinion, why do we NEED to use the Day vig toDay?
@Cyan - Even though I am right about the ball, why do we need to wait until tomorrow to vig someone? You seem to be implying we can only vig CM. I think he needs to die at some point in this game too much like a cop to confirm he isn't trying to pull one over on us, but couldn't you think about vigging someone else? What if you aren't around tomorrow? What if Wheat passes the ball to me or you or back to Cantrip or Rhand? Speaking of, we should probably have some discussion about where we want the ball to go to keep Wheat honest. Depends on who we are going to lynch/vig though.
Well yes. If he actually did pass the shotgun, then that means he only had two items to give. That's a bit weak for a supplier.
So I think the shotgun came from somewhere else. I want to know from where.
Is it weak though? Being able to give out a bomb and vig? I think having to craft something ahead of time is too much of a limitation and I'm not really seeing it.
@Mod - Is order of operations for Night actions info we are privy to?
He claimed Dr. and there was no CC. Then, last Night, there was one kill which Rhand admitted to which seemingly would mean Cyan stopped a kill.
If Cyan is scum, that would mean he would need to be a scum Dr. or Wheat is covering for him and they are scum together. But in that case, that means Rhand would be telling the truth about killing Voxx and so scum went for a tactical no kill to give Cyan's claim cred? Or I guess they both shot Voxx... I guess it's possible, but doesn't seem super likely.
Something interesting though. If we have Cyan vig KJ right now, KJ turns up with the role he claimed, and with TK-BP, suddenly we have a pseudo-BP, a BP, and a Doc? I mean it's modgaming, but that seems a bit fishy. Though with a 1-shot vig, and SK, and a Day vig, it might not be too much protection.
All that to say, I think it's easier (and likely correct) if we go with Cyan telling the truth for now over some drawn out paranoia lines to him being scum, and if he is lying I think we will figure it out soon.
@Generic - Also, you seem to be eager to claim apathetic town and not engage people when they are talking to you, but you also seem to be willing to question others and point fingers and make decisions on who to lynch/vig. I'd like it if you continued to help, but you are really throwing a wrench in my town read on you with this one-way effort.
@KJ - Going to need to hear an item claim (or lack of) and whether you started with it or received it. And answer Cyan's question about what it exactly does.
Hunger: Do you think that in a game such as this that EVERY role has to use items? Mine doesn't. Unless you count gratuitous amounts of blood as an item.
Cyan: No lynches aren't prevented at all. Ability only works when I'm killed in a non-lynch way. and I last until the start of the next Day. If you were to dayKill me, I show up dead Tomorrow at when day opens.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Hunger: Do you think that in a game such as this that EVERY role has to use items? Mine doesn't. Unless you count gratuitous amounts of blood as an item.
Cyan: No lynches aren't prevented at all. Ability only works when I'm killed in a non-lynch way. and I last until the start of the next Day. If you were to dayKill me, I show up dead Tomorrow at when day opens.
No, I don't think it's impossible that there could be a role that is not item based, but if you are NK'd or lynched or bombed or Night-vig'd or SK'd (all of which we have evidence of existing in this game), your ability does absolutely nothing. Your ability is the only non-item role we have heard of, and it only interacts with one other item that isn't even guaranteed to be used, much less on you? Sorry, but it just sounds a bit far-fetched.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I'm not 100% on TK just because of the Niv interaction but it does look like that the final two scum would have to try and stick together and him and killjoy did just that. We should definitely vig killjoy asap. If it's not tk, it's lngr.
Hey look I'm at L-2. Ok I'll claim, since I probably deserve it since I've been so absent of late, for which I apologize. Work has been hectic, but I won't sit here and make excuses.
My name is Brett Buckley, Town Bleeder. I'm a kind of delayed bulletproof. When shot, I'm alive until the start of the next Day, then I'll end up dead.
For clarity, this is my literal claim. It's accurate. My ability is this simple. inb4someonesaysibackpedaledonmyclaim
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
So what happens when I don't die immediately and prove you wrong then?
Also, my ability doesn't do nothing in those cases except if I'm lynched.
Curious, though... why would I be NKed if I'm scum? You include Night-vigged in your situations, so it can't be including that.
Then we readjust obviously.
As for why you would be NK'd as scum, you wouldn't be. But for your role to be what you say it is, then being NK'd would be among the ways for you to die that would have no effect. Which was the point of that part of my post.
However, you seem to be implying that being NK'd, SK'd, or Night vig'd would actually do something, which seems contrary to what you were saying. Are you saying if you got NK'd toNight, you wouldn't die the next Day, but the next next Day?
I'm not 100% on TK just because of the Niv interaction but it does look like that the final two scum would have to try and stick together and him and killjoy did just that. We should definitely vig killjoy asap. If it's not tk, it's lngr.
So the Niv interaction is that Niv was pushing him D1 and I would have to admit it does read pretty genuine to me. However, when Antny started getting wagon'd, Niv said basically, "TK is still scum, but Karn isn't answering questions," and vote-hopped to Karn while avoiding the Antny wagon and still calling TK scum. It could easily be he was trying to distance with TK and when Antny was getting strung up, he switched over to Karn so as to not have two competing scum wagons. So it's WIFOMy either way.
It's actually NOT contrary to what I said. Reread my claim. If I'm shot, I don't die until the start of the next Day. That's what I said, and that never changed.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
It's actually NOT contrary to what I said. Reread my claim. If I'm shot, I don't die until the start of the next Day. That's what I said, and that never changed.
Say fulcrum shot you N1. You die the next Day, which would be D2. I said that means your ability does nothing when NK'd, SK'd, or Night vig'd, and if you don't literally mean shot, then also include bombed. You said your ability doesn't do nothing in those cases, only if you are lynched. So which is it? Next Day, or next next Day, or your ability only interacts with a Day vig?
Answer this question for me first, Hunger. Why is that specific instance (whether I die the next day or the next next day), and knowing what happens to me in that case helpful for the Town to know?
I don't want scum to have that information if I can help it. I'd like to keep them guessing in that case.
I also never said it ONLY interacts with a Day vig. I only told Cyan what would happen if he shot me today.
You're either reading way too much into what I've said, or you're purposely creating conflict to make me look bad. I can't decide which.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
I agree with Hunger. I think I want to see both TK and Killjoy dead.
In which case I do not mind at all saying that TK had the bulletproof vest, especially since 2 and 2 were put together by at least one person.
TK's response to KJ's claim was just so WEIRD with that knowledge. Look back at TK's posts in the last few pages.
Well that info helps.
So KJ thought "bulletproof" (yes, I know he said bleeder) would be a safe claim because his buddy TK is bulletproof, and TK was in no immediate danger of flipping.
Answer this question for me first, Hunger. Why is that specific instance (whether I die the next day or the next next day), and knowing what happens to me in that case helpful for the Town to know?
I don't want scum to have that information if I can help it. I'd like to keep them guessing in that case.
I also never said it ONLY interacts with a Day vig. I only told Cyan what would happen if he shot me today.
You're either reading way too much into what I've said, or you're purposely creating conflict to make me look bad. I can't decide which.
Because if it's next Day, and you ability ONLY interacts with a Day vig, I think it's a bad claim. If it's next next Day, then it's pretty OP and that means scum needs to kill you two Days ahead of time which means they can't leave you to lylo and we could force them to shoot you toNight and have to WIFOM around you being protected. Or if they wait, then they may have to survive two lylo lynches with you being confirmed. That's if you're town. But I think you are likely scum.
Answer this question for me first, Hunger. Why is that specific instance (whether I die the next day or the next next day), and knowing what happens to me in that case helpful for the Town to know?
I don't want scum to have that information if I can help it. I'd like to keep them guessing in that case.
I also never said it ONLY interacts with a Day vig. I only told Cyan what would happen if he shot me today.
You're either reading way too much into what I've said, or you're purposely creating conflict to make me look bad. I can't decide which.
Because if it's next Day, and you ability ONLY interacts with a Day vig, I think it's a bad claim. If it's next next Day, then it's pretty OP and that means scum needs to kill you two Days ahead of time which means they can't leave you to lylo and we could force them to shoot you toNight and have to WIFOM around you being protected. Or if they wait, then they may have to survive two lylo lynches with you being confirmed. That's if you're town. But I think you are likely scum.
Again, why does TELLING THE GAME THAT INFORMATION help anyone? All it does is help scum figure out when to shoot me. I will tell you when I'm dying if it comes to that.
And again, I never said it only interacts with the Dayvig. My claim has all the information you'd need to figure out my role except the information I'm specifically not telling you, and you know why.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
Because, like I said, if it is the way I originally interpreted it and the way you stated it in your claim, I think it's a false claim. I think you are lying scum, that's the entire point. Typcially when pushed to claim, you don't leave part of your claim out. If when shot at Night it actually carries over to the next next Day, then it would be a little more believable, but still probably a bit overpowered with a Dr. in the game.
I agree with Hunger. I think I want to see both TK and Killjoy dead.
In which case I do not mind at all saying that TK had the bulletproof vest, especially since 2 and 2 were put together by at least one person.
TK's response to KJ's claim was just so WEIRD with that knowledge. Look back at TK's posts in the last few pages.
Well that info helps.
So KJ thought "bulletproof" (yes, I know he said bleeder) would be a safe claim because his buddy TK is bulletproof, and TK was in no immediate danger of flipping.
That's what I'm getting you saying at least.
Also, check out my WTF resurrection post to TK on the last page. It seems to be TK knows a bit more about KJ's power than we do.
@everyone - Can you legitimately see where TK read it as a resurrection role based on KJ's claim?
I've told you everything relevant. I've made it clear that it's not as you originally interpreted it. It's really not OP ever, considering there's no flip until I'm officially dead. It's effectively worse than BP, since it doesn't actually prevent a kill, just delays it.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cyan - Even though I am right about the ball, why do we need to wait until tomorrow to vig someone? You seem to be implying we can only vig CM. I think he needs to die at some point in this game too much like a cop to confirm he isn't trying to pull one over on us, but couldn't you think about vigging someone else? What if you aren't around tomorrow? What if Wheat passes the ball to me or you or back to Cantrip or Rhand? Speaking of, we should probably have some discussion about where we want the ball to go to keep Wheat honest. Depends on who we are going to lynch/vig though.
To put this very plainly, I was already forced to out myself as the Doc..by the SK on some complete nonsense. I don't have a ton of faith in most of the town right now. And my desired use for my vig shot is completely optimal. Is it possible that I'll get NKed? Sure, but it seems super unlikely. The scum already missed shooting at me once. I can't believe that they're going to immediately try to do so again. And if WG gives the ball to anyone other than whomever the town wants him to, he just paints a huge scum target on his own head. I can't really see that happening. I also think that CM is a great candidate for being vigged, because he has been a complete non-factor this game.
Like if you guys feel SUPER strongly that I should use my dayvig today, then fine. But it's not what I would consider to be the correct play.
Now that KJ has explained his ability, it shoots down the other idea that I had.
@KJ:
The problem is that your claimed role only actually does anything if you're dayvigged. If you get NKed/Vigged at night, you would just die at the start of the next die, which is immediately afterwards. It's hard to believe in a role that so narrowly interacts with an ability(a daykill) that can apparently only be used once in the entire game.
I can't make sense of TK's reactions at all, from either town or scum perspective. Normally, I could see not counterclaiming as town. Maybe TK just doesn't think that Doc + his BP + conditional BP is too much(and to be fair, it might not be, we have no idea what the scum can do, and the game did have a full SK). But then..how do you create a convoluted 'big plus little' scenario where your role is just conveniently absent from the factoring, despite being much more similar to one of the claimed roles? And frankly, the same logic applies if you're scum. I could see not addressing the situation at all as scum(because you don't want to effectively POE yourself), but like..how would you make this post in the first place? We really need to hear from TK on this matter. Including why he started talking about 'resurrection'. It's really hard for me to see TK and KJ as both being scum though. TK's post is just too uncoordinated for that.
Pre-post edit: Some of this looks like it's already been covered. Oh well, not erasing. You seem more confused about how your role works than we do, KJ. This doesn't inspire anyone to believe that you're telling the truth about it.
But the way you've explained it it makes sense that people might think that it only interacts with Dayvigs. I hadn't considered it that way. I thought the way I was explaining it was clear enough.
But yes, if NightKilled, I last until the next next day. If Daykilled, I last the rest of that day and the night, then die the next day.
KoolKoal: Feel free to take this with a grain of salt since self meta isn't particularly helpful, but I think I get scumread mostly for style over substance, but also for a certain lack of substance over style. It's not so much what I AM posting most of the time (though sometimes that can seem bad) but what I'm NOT posting. I've been told I come to non-obvious conclusions a lot, so when I post, quite a bit of the time there's jumps in logic that people can't follow and they think that's scummy. I get that accusation about a lot of questions I ask specifically. People call them "busy work" when the questions are legit etc.
As far as things to ignore, I can't think of anything. I would suggest you focus less on what I'm doing and more on how I'm doing it. That's probably more likely to be accurate. Like I've just said, what I do tends to come off a little weird, but if you look for how I do it, mindset comes into play and maybe you figure out something useful.
@Cyan: The only problem there is that I have been given exactly zero indication of where to toss the ball and therefore I'm likely to toss it wherever I feel like.
I agree with Hunger. I think I want to see both TK and Killjoy dead.
In which case I do not mind at all saying that TK had the bulletproof vest, especially since 2 and 2 were put together by at least one person.
TK's response to KJ's claim was just so WEIRD with that knowledge. Look back at TK's posts in the last few pages.
Well that info helps.
So KJ thought "bulletproof" (yes, I know he said bleeder) would be a safe claim because his buddy TK is bulletproof, and TK was in no immediate danger of flipping.
That's what I'm getting you saying at least.
I'm more saying TK's reaction to Killjoy is contrived as all hell. What you say is also true, but it's more TK's response which is so weird.
Plus I've sort of thought of TK and Killjoy as being in the same camp Day 1 before I saw the BP vest on TK. I automatically think of BP as town, so I immediately stopped pursuit of TK Day 2. But now that there's the CC, I've started thinking about that again; they've been too chummy, I feel. It feels weird that scum would do so, but I feel okay about it occurring in this instance, especially when things very suddenly turned south on their team.
How is that any different than I explained it? I said the same thing like two or three times. In fact I was even more specific than Cyan and even gave an example. You seemed to comprehend said example and said it was better to not give scum that info. Now suddenly it's fine to say?
I'm still of the opinion it's a bit OP, since scum can't shoot KJ at lylo.
@Cyan, I am fine with you not shooting toDay if you think it's a good play.
Where do you propose we throw the ball?
On the off chance KJ is telling the truth though, I think I would rather lynch TK at this point. What about you?
@Wheat - Where would you throw the ball as it stands?
Would you rather lynch TK or KJ?
I'd rather lynch KJ any day of the week. But especially toDay, because it's happening now.
The only targets that make any sense at all are Generic, hawk, and LnGrrrR. I probably wouldn't throw it to Hawk over Generic because they both have some activity and Generic is the scummier of the two, but I might throw it to LnGrrrR because he's such an unknown.
@Wheat - Where would you throw the ball as it stands?
Would you rather lynch TK or KJ?
I'd rather lynch KJ any day of the week. But especially toDay, because it's happening now.
The only targets that make any sense at all are Generic, hawk, and LnGrrrR. I probably wouldn't throw it to Hawk over Generic because they both have some activity and Generic is the scummier of the two, but I might throw it to LnGrrrR because he's such an unknown.
Not TK? Of the three you mentioned, I would also choose LnG.
I'm fine with getting this ball, whatever the heck it does.
And yeah, living a whole Day after being the NK seems like a wonky role. I mean, what would happen in LyLo? Scum think they have the game in bag but on no wait they don't?
Should we mass claim at this point, to see if anyone else has a power that doesn't involve an item?
@Wheat - Where would you throw the ball as it stands?
Would you rather lynch TK or KJ?
I'd rather lynch KJ any day of the week. But especially toDay, because it's happening now.
The only targets that make any sense at all are Generic, hawk, and LnGrrrR. I probably wouldn't throw it to Hawk over Generic because they both have some activity and Generic is the scummier of the two, but I might throw it to LnGrrrR because he's such an unknown.
Not TK? Of the three you mentioned, I would also choose LnG.
I know something about TK. I know zero about hawk, Generic, and LnGrrrR.
@KJ: how many items do you think Seppel could pass each night? Lol.
For when I'm dead though: I don't like WG's actions surrounding this whole situation with me. He might be scum. Seeing items seems to me like a modded rolecop, which could be scum. Consider that when I'm dead, please.
Or, if he's not, and there is only one town BP variant, the other guy is scum.
Also, why is WG near confirmed town again?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
So you are implying you were given that item, but yet in the second quote it seems like you are saying it's your ability. You seem to be insinuating that you started the game with that ability and not that you were VT and acquired that ability.
Also consider ever role we have seen/has been claimed is based on an item, in your claim you never mentioned it having anything to do with an item. Just doesn't add up.
Consider my vote on KJ, but I will wait to place it in case people want to talk anything out and he tries to self hammer.
That's the item KJ is talking about.
@KJ: Does your ability work when you are lynched or NKed? Or is it just specifically if you are killed during the day? Like..maybe you can just summarize what your ability actually says/does?
A resurrection ability is extremely powerful for mafia, not to mention potentially problematic if we were down to 2vs2. Even a successful lynch would allow the mafiate to kill a townie and control the vote. I considered making the Phoenix role in Marvel Madness 2 (a townie) a resurrector, and it was too swingy. In a normal game, I'd consider it to be townie-only and being conditional makes it sound believable.
As for Wheat, he's been keeping claims honest, not outing everyone and helping the town. So the two options are that he's town, or that he's mafia who is going about town-clearing when possible. Since town-clearing is detrimental to mafia, Occam's Razor suggests he's town.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
Outdated Mafia Stats
Do you think in an item-based game a role exists that isn't item based, or if it is item based do you think KJ leaves that out when claiming?
To me it seems like he is dead in the water and tried to come up with a claim to draw away the Day vig.
I prefer TK as vig target at this point.
Hunger: Seppel and Cantrip handed out items. I do not believe there is a third one in town, which is why i wanted the shotgun donator to claim. He's probably scum.
Or it was Seppel, but since Seppel is found only with a bomb, I am assuming Seppel has to spend an action to craft first. Otherwise he was only 2-shot.
I have a problem with Cyan's clear now.
@ The owner of the bulletproof vest: please check with the mod if you will be notified when te vest is used.
If you are not notified, then we might be wrongly clearing Cyan as doc now.
(I assume that you would've told us if you did use it last Night)
If TK is BP, then his whole "big" vs "little" roles post is contrived. He would clearly have to include himself in parallel with KJ's role. Maybe he doesn't claim it in that post, but if he was town BP and honestly trying to figure it out the "little" vs "big" thing shouldn't make sense to him and I don't think he would post it. And while he says worst claim ever, wouldn't town-BP-TK CC KJ there?
TK, what's up?
I'm catching up, but will confirm that the basics of my role have been guessed correctly: when I die, the role (not just alignment) of the player with the ball will be revealed, along with any items the player has (but not what they do). Despite being a death-rolecop, I'm town, but I completely understand if I get killed/lynched for it. Killing me now confirms Wheat's alignment, but since he's already claimed, if he's town, that additional information being outed likely isn't detrimental. The other obvious benefit to dayvigging me is that you get another chance to discuss the gamestate with my flip and Wheat's reveal.
I think that KJ's claim is questionable in a game with an x-shot doc and a bulletproof vest, but vests can be given away by scum, so I don't know how telling that is. TK's justification sounded off, manufactured, so if KJ flips scum, I agree that TK needs more scrutiny.
@Rhand: Please elaborate on 1088: how does dayvigging KJ give us "a dead scum or confirmed town" given that if KJ's telling the truth about his ability (regardless of alignment) he will still be around (unrevealed) until the start of Tomorrow, and then he'll be dead?
@Cyan - Even though I am right about the ball, why do we need to wait until tomorrow to vig someone? You seem to be implying we can only vig CM. I think he needs to die at some point in this game too much like a cop to confirm he isn't trying to pull one over on us, but couldn't you think about vigging someone else? What if you aren't around tomorrow? What if Wheat passes the ball to me or you or back to Cantrip or Rhand? Speaking of, we should probably have some discussion about where we want the ball to go to keep Wheat honest. Depends on who we are going to lynch/vig though.
Is it weak though? Being able to give out a bomb and vig? I think having to craft something ahead of time is too much of a limitation and I'm not really seeing it.
@Mod - Is order of operations for Night actions info we are privy to?
He claimed Dr. and there was no CC. Then, last Night, there was one kill which Rhand admitted to which seemingly would mean Cyan stopped a kill.
If Cyan is scum, that would mean he would need to be a scum Dr. or Wheat is covering for him and they are scum together. But in that case, that means Rhand would be telling the truth about killing Voxx and so scum went for a tactical no kill to give Cyan's claim cred? Or I guess they both shot Voxx... I guess it's possible, but doesn't seem super likely.
Something interesting though. If we have Cyan vig KJ right now, KJ turns up with the role he claimed, and with TK-BP, suddenly we have a pseudo-BP, a BP, and a Doc? I mean it's modgaming, but that seems a bit fishy. Though with a 1-shot vig, and SK, and a Day vig, it might not be too much protection.
All that to say, I think it's easier (and likely correct) if we go with Cyan telling the truth for now over some drawn out paranoia lines to him being scum, and if he is lying I think we will figure it out soon.
@Generic - Also, you seem to be eager to claim apathetic town and not engage people when they are talking to you, but you also seem to be willing to question others and point fingers and make decisions on who to lynch/vig. I'd like it if you continued to help, but you are really throwing a wrench in my town read on you with this one-way effort.
@KJ - Going to need to hear an item claim (or lack of) and whether you started with it or received it. And answer Cyan's question about what it exactly does.
I want to see another flip, and it's possible Cyan dies toNight and never gets to use it if scum have a roleblocker or something.
I don't see a better reason for us to wait.
It'd be a smart move I think.
Cyan: No lynches aren't prevented at all. Ability only works when I'm killed in a non-lynch way. and I last until the start of the next Day. If you were to dayKill me, I show up dead Tomorrow at when day opens.
In which case I do not mind at all saying that TK had the bulletproof vest, especially since 2 and 2 were put together by at least one person.
TK's response to KJ's claim was just so WEIRD with that knowledge. Look back at TK's posts in the last few pages.
No, I don't think it's impossible that there could be a role that is not item based, but if you are NK'd or lynched or bombed or Night-vig'd or SK'd (all of which we have evidence of existing in this game), your ability does absolutely nothing. Your ability is the only non-item role we have heard of, and it only interacts with one other item that isn't even guaranteed to be used, much less on you? Sorry, but it just sounds a bit far-fetched.
Shoot KJ.
Lynch TK.
Win?
Also, my ability doesn't do nothing in those cases except if I'm lynched.
Curious, though... why would I be NKed if I'm scum? You include Night-vigged in your situations, so it can't be including that.
Outdated Mafia Stats
For clarity, this is my literal claim. It's accurate. My ability is this simple. inb4someonesaysibackpedaledonmyclaim
As for why you would be NK'd as scum, you wouldn't be. But for your role to be what you say it is, then being NK'd would be among the ways for you to die that would have no effect. Which was the point of that part of my post.
However, you seem to be implying that being NK'd, SK'd, or Night vig'd would actually do something, which seems contrary to what you were saying. Are you saying if you got NK'd toNight, you wouldn't die the next Day, but the next next Day?
I don't want scum to have that information if I can help it. I'd like to keep them guessing in that case.
I also never said it ONLY interacts with a Day vig. I only told Cyan what would happen if he shot me today.
You're either reading way too much into what I've said, or you're purposely creating conflict to make me look bad. I can't decide which.
Well that info helps.
So KJ thought "bulletproof" (yes, I know he said bleeder) would be a safe claim because his buddy TK is bulletproof, and TK was in no immediate danger of flipping.
That's what I'm getting you saying at least.
Again, why does TELLING THE GAME THAT INFORMATION help anyone? All it does is help scum figure out when to shoot me. I will tell you when I'm dying if it comes to that.
And again, I never said it only interacts with the Dayvig. My claim has all the information you'd need to figure out my role except the information I'm specifically not telling you, and you know why.
@everyone - Can you legitimately see where TK read it as a resurrection role based on KJ's claim?
To put this very plainly, I was already forced to out myself as the Doc..by the SK on some complete nonsense. I don't have a ton of faith in most of the town right now. And my desired use for my vig shot is completely optimal. Is it possible that I'll get NKed? Sure, but it seems super unlikely. The scum already missed shooting at me once. I can't believe that they're going to immediately try to do so again. And if WG gives the ball to anyone other than whomever the town wants him to, he just paints a huge scum target on his own head. I can't really see that happening. I also think that CM is a great candidate for being vigged, because he has been a complete non-factor this game.
Like if you guys feel SUPER strongly that I should use my dayvig today, then fine. But it's not what I would consider to be the correct play.
Now that KJ has explained his ability, it shoots down the other idea that I had.
@KJ:
The problem is that your claimed role only actually does anything if you're dayvigged. If you get NKed/Vigged at night, you would just die at the start of the next die, which is immediately afterwards. It's hard to believe in a role that so narrowly interacts with an ability(a daykill) that can apparently only be used once in the entire game.
I can't make sense of TK's reactions at all, from either town or scum perspective. Normally, I could see not counterclaiming as town. Maybe TK just doesn't think that Doc + his BP + conditional BP is too much(and to be fair, it might not be, we have no idea what the scum can do, and the game did have a full SK). But then..how do you create a convoluted 'big plus little' scenario where your role is just conveniently absent from the factoring, despite being much more similar to one of the claimed roles? And frankly, the same logic applies if you're scum. I could see not addressing the situation at all as scum(because you don't want to effectively POE yourself), but like..how would you make this post in the first place? We really need to hear from TK on this matter. Including why he started talking about 'resurrection'. It's really hard for me to see TK and KJ as both being scum though. TK's post is just too uncoordinated for that.
Pre-post edit: Some of this looks like it's already been covered. Oh well, not erasing. You seem more confused about how your role works than we do, KJ. This doesn't inspire anyone to believe that you're telling the truth about it.
But the way you've explained it it makes sense that people might think that it only interacts with Dayvigs. I hadn't considered it that way. I thought the way I was explaining it was clear enough.
But yes, if NightKilled, I last until the next next day. If Daykilled, I last the rest of that day and the night, then die the next day.
I'm more saying TK's reaction to Killjoy is contrived as all hell. What you say is also true, but it's more TK's response which is so weird.
Plus I've sort of thought of TK and Killjoy as being in the same camp Day 1 before I saw the BP vest on TK. I automatically think of BP as town, so I immediately stopped pursuit of TK Day 2. But now that there's the CC, I've started thinking about that again; they've been too chummy, I feel. It feels weird that scum would do so, but I feel okay about it occurring in this instance, especially when things very suddenly turned south on their team.
I'm still of the opinion it's a bit OP, since scum can't shoot KJ at lylo.
@Cyan, I am fine with you not shooting toDay if you think it's a good play.
Where do you propose we throw the ball?
On the off chance KJ is telling the truth though, I think I would rather lynch TK at this point. What about you?
Would you rather lynch TK or KJ?
Outdated Mafia Stats
I'd rather lynch KJ any day of the week. But especially toDay, because it's happening now.
The only targets that make any sense at all are Generic, hawk, and LnGrrrR. I probably wouldn't throw it to Hawk over Generic because they both have some activity and Generic is the scummier of the two, but I might throw it to LnGrrrR because he's such an unknown.
And yeah, living a whole Day after being the NK seems like a wonky role. I mean, what would happen in LyLo? Scum think they have the game in bag but on no wait they don't?
Should we mass claim at this point, to see if anyone else has a power that doesn't involve an item?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
I know something about TK. I know zero about hawk, Generic, and LnGrrrR.